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The podcast where we talk to smart people,

2:23

but not necessarily done by smart

2:25

people. That is an awesome question.

2:28

This one goes down probably on one of my top

2:30

five. Hey, I like nutrition. I

2:32

like to eat food. This is the coolest thing ever. We're

2:34

going to do this forever. I wish I paid

2:37

more attention in that class. You know,

2:39

I'm going to be honest. I don't understand that. As

2:41

a man, I just, I don't get it.

2:45

Welcome to smartpeoplepodcast.com.

2:48

Hello, and welcome to Smart People Podcast,

2:50

conversations that satisfy your curious mind.

2:53

Chris Stemp here. Thanks for tuning in. This

2:55

week on the show, we want to give you an alternate

2:57

perspective. An alternate perspective

3:00

of what success is. An alternate

3:02

perspective on how to achieve

3:04

success. An alternate perspective

3:07

on hustle culture.

3:08

All wrapped in a Trojan horse.

3:11

What I mean by that is our guest this week is

3:14

what you would define as successful

3:16

by all modern descriptors. He

3:19

was the youngest press secretary in New

3:21

York City history during the September

3:23

11th attacks. He helped lead the effort

3:25

to rebuild the World Trade Center site as

3:27

chief operating officer, and then became

3:30

executive vice president of the New York

3:32

Jets, followed by vice chairman

3:34

of the Miami Dolphins. He

3:36

currently produces a show called

3:38

Business Hunters. He was a guest shark

3:41

on ABC's Shark Tank. He's an executive

3:44

fellow and teacher at Harvard Business School.

3:46

And through RSE Ventures, the private investment

3:49

firm he co-founded, he is an investor

3:51

in some of America's most beloved brands.

3:54

So why did we choose our

3:56

guest, Matt Higgins, to be the one

3:58

to provide us with such...

3:59

a unique perspective on all these

4:02

things. Well, as you're gonna hear,

4:04

Matt is not your average businessman.

4:07

He's not your average success story, and

4:09

his book is not your average

4:12

hustle culture book.

4:13

Although it might sound like it,

4:15

Matt is the author of the brand

4:17

new book, Burn the Boats, Toss

4:20

Plan B Overboard and Unleash

4:22

Your Full Potential.

4:25

I'm gonna be the first to tell you,

4:27

I do not like the phrase, burn the

4:29

boats. I do not like the idea

4:32

of tossing plan B overboard. And

4:34

that is the first thing I say to Matt

4:36

in this interview. Then we go on

4:38

a journey. I hope you enjoy. I

4:40

hope this changed the way you think about

4:43

what you want your life to be. If

4:45

it does, shoot me an email, chris

4:47

at smartpeoplepodcast.com, would

4:49

love to hear from you.

4:51

Also, share it with a friend. That's the

4:53

best way you can help us out.

4:56

We are at smartpeoplepodcast.com, hope

4:58

you enjoy. Let's turn it over to Matt

5:00

Higgins as we talk about his brand new book, Burn

5:03

the Boats, Toss Plan B Overboard

5:06

and Unleash Your Full Potential.

5:09

Enjoy. So I got the

5:11

book right here, Burn the

5:14

Boats,

5:16

Toss

5:20

Plan B Overboard and Unleash Your Full Potential.

5:22

And I'm gonna be honest with you, I haven't told you this yet.

5:25

I don't like the burn the boats

5:27

phrase initially.

5:29

And then I thought

5:31

I was going to be right until

5:34

I was reading your book. And

5:36

there was this section you talk about when you got testicular

5:39

cancer. The day after the surgery,

5:42

you went into work, you were working

5:44

with the Jets.

5:45

You had this motto,

5:47

half the balls, twice the man. You

5:49

said, I thought I was being a hero showing toughness

5:51

and grit. And right there I was like, see,

5:54

that's the mentality. It's all

5:56

costs, win, make money, entrepreneurship,

5:59

burn the boats. Just not my vibe and

6:01

then you totally pulled it 180 on me

6:04

and you said But now I just cringe

6:07

at the memory of that night. All

6:09

I was demonstrating was my own weakness.

6:11

I'm hooked I mean,

6:13

I can't wait to talk to Matt What about that

6:15

grit that toughness that show up the next

6:17

day actually is not

6:19

what you advocate for now I love I

6:21

love that you pick that up by the way because if

6:24

you think about it to some extent I'm robbing myself

6:26

of my own hero story, right because

6:28

it's like for those just expand for two seconds,

6:31

right? I got I was freaked out when I got

6:33

testicular cancer. I was relatively young. I just

6:35

had a baby I was running from poverty

6:37

running from it from my demons and I

6:39

was on the brink of getting a big contract at the New York

6:41

Jets I was running the team and then

6:43

I had a pain in my grind and I was like that's

6:46

nothing and then it got bigger and Then eventually I was like this

6:48

really hurts and then when you have testicular

6:50

cancer people don't know this like you're on

6:52

the clock Like once they take the sonogram

6:54

and they diagnose it you're like, so

6:57

we're gonna need you back here in 24 hours I've

6:59

whoa, wait, I've had this testicle my whole life

7:01

like this isn't like an irrelevant part of my anatomy

7:04

You

7:04

know like no you need to you need to you need to

7:06

have a removed and so long story

7:08

short I do it and then and

7:10

then I'm freaked out not about death

7:12

I'm freaked out about I'm gonna be picked

7:14

apart by the vultures of the team You know and

7:16

I mean this macho culture and then I'm like how am

7:18

I gonna show it? And I come up with the idea that there's

7:21

a dinner with all the coaches and I'm gonna show

7:23

up at that dinner And I'm gonna be like, you

7:25

know

7:26

Whatever and then I got a dog tag made and

7:28

it's like you said half the balls twice demand, which I

7:30

still do love By the way, I don't yeah, it's a good it's a good

7:32

fight. That's amazing Honestly, I should put it on

7:34

shirts But so so the reason why I

7:36

put it in the book and I'm so glad you noticed that I that

7:38

I turned it on its head When I

7:40

when I look back at that moment in time like

7:43

from one vantage point I'm showing the group how tough

7:45

I am right but but for anybody who sophisticated

7:48

worldly Evolved self-possessed at the

7:50

top of Maslow's hierarchy We'd be like this

7:52

guy doesn't have a shit together Because no rational

7:54

person would have their testicle cut off

7:56

and show up with an ice pack the next day But

7:58

as time went on and I I had

8:00

more responsibility. I was, imagine

8:02

what it was like to be an employee working for the guy in

8:05

charge who got his testicle

8:07

cut off and came to the meeting.

8:09

That means that when I'm dealing with divorce or

8:12

depression, I

8:14

can never tell the guy that because unless you're losing a part

8:16

of your anatomy,

8:17

it doesn't compare objectively, right? It's

8:19

a pretty big deal.

8:21

And so I started there. I love the

8:23

way you asked me this question. The book is a

8:25

Trojan horse. It's meant to bring

8:27

you in. Some people will be alienated

8:29

like you would be like, this is stupid and unsophisticated.

8:32

And then a lot of people will be like, oh, this is what I want.

8:35

But it's a Trojan horse

8:36

to really deliver

8:38

this message to those who are anxiety-ridden,

8:40

angst-laden that you too get to inherit

8:42

the earth, right? And so it's really meant

8:45

to reappropriate

8:46

for my own purposes, the phrase,

8:49

burn the boats, which is very jingoistic, to

8:51

provide a much more nuanced view of it. What I love,

8:53

so you know how you hated it until you read it. There are

8:56

people who read it who are the opposite of you

8:58

and boy do they hate it and boy do I love it.

9:00

Oh yeah, no, some of the reviews, most of the reviews have been

9:02

really positive, which are made like 93%. But

9:05

then there are some, somebody wrote the other day, this is woke

9:07

trash. See, but then

9:09

you knew you stand for something. Then

9:11

you knew you wrote something that mattered.

9:13

I just, I have to tell you, it

9:15

was so, so refreshing.

9:19

We've had people on the show where we actively

9:21

talk against the idea of

9:23

burn the boats to an extent. It's really

9:25

the kind of machismo that surrounds

9:29

that idea. The hustle culture nonsense. Yes. You

9:31

know, and I still, I love that we're talking this. I still wonder

9:34

if my sort of

9:35

Trojan horse was

9:37

a mistake because it's very hard to rebrand

9:40

a idea that has a certain connotation.

9:42

But you know, I thought at a minimum, I mean,

9:44

I'm sure you probably noticed, I start with a female

9:46

founder, I end with a female founder. I

9:48

don't lecture you that, you know, women are amazing.

9:51

I just show you. So I wanted

9:53

to have a platform to do that too, frankly. Because

9:55

if you pick up this book and you're into hustle culture

9:58

and you, you may not be that.

9:59

that enlightened, right? And like,

10:02

so I did a little bit of a Jedi switch where we were

10:04

there too, and that makes me happy. But

10:06

in the same token, maybe you do,

10:09

quote

10:09

unquote, change some minds. Maybe

10:12

you bring some nuance to something

10:14

that needs nuance and is not getting

10:17

it today. Right, and that's why I'm so excited

10:19

to do this podcast because I feel like it's an opportunity for

10:21

me to deconstruct a little bit of the nuance of what am

10:23

I saying and what am I not saying? Why do

10:25

I believe a guy like you can believe in

10:28

what I'm saying and the word burns the boats when

10:30

presented in the way I present it, right?

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slash SPP. Well,

14:05

and that's what I want to talk to you about. And I want to dig in because

14:08

what I don't think, you know,

14:10

at this point is you wrote this book

14:12

for me. I've had anxiety. I've

14:16

dealt with anxiety. I've worked in corporate America. I've

14:18

tried to start companies. I failed. I've been

14:20

terrified. This podcast alone is an

14:22

example. When we launched it, we didn't tell a single

14:25

soul. We didn't market it. We didn't tell friends.

14:27

We didn't tell anybody because of the fear of do

14:29

we look stupid when we put it out

14:32

there and blah, blah, blah, right? And as

14:34

I was reading, I was like, this not

14:36

only is it not what I expected, it's exactly what

14:39

I needed. Well, that makes me so happy,

14:41

by the way. Honestly, like

14:43

nothing you could say would make me happier than that. All

14:45

the work that I put into it. And it's true. And

14:48

you have the pedigree and just

14:50

everything to back it up. So by the way, love

14:52

that too. I waited until I had enough authority

14:55

that the person who's from hustle culture would

14:57

be like, yeah, that Matt Higgins, he's

15:00

on Shark Tank, he's rich or something. You know what

15:02

I mean? To be like, actually, that's not what I planned to tell you.

15:04

You know what I mean? But I got your attention. Let

15:06

me explain to people listening some

15:09

things you've said that, and I'd like for you to expound

15:11

so we can understand it. You said, if you're

15:13

someone who's worried you

15:15

won't succeed, you've already failed. And

15:18

I'd like for you to talk about that a little

15:20

bit because again, that's something you

15:22

could read and go,

15:23

man, everybody has doubts. So

15:26

if I feel doubtful, does

15:28

that mean I shouldn't even start? So can

15:30

I unpack the whole thing just a little bit? Of course, we got

15:32

time. So just those

15:34

who are listening, a lot of people already know this already, but

15:37

I became obsessed with this idea of burn

15:39

the boats as phrasing when I worked at the

15:41

New York Jets and we were

15:44

in a skit and our motive

15:46

head coach, who's like, you know, big Rex Ryan, big

15:48

jowls. He gives this very emotional

15:50

speech to the team. We were playing the Steelers, we were

15:52

the underdog. And he tells these young guys

15:54

the story of Cortez from 1519. Cortez

15:57

is a very bad man, so don't emulate him. But nonetheless.

16:00

He's credited with this idea of burn the boats and how he

16:02

burned 10 of his 11 boats while

16:04

invading Mexico, ultimately defeated the

16:06

Aztecs. And Rex said, like, he

16:09

burned the boats. All I'm asking you to

16:11

do is give me one effing game.

16:13

And me, I'm like, all right, kind of corny. But

16:16

anyway, we won.

16:18

And then the players in the New York Times did a bit of interview

16:20

and all the players attributed the extra level of effort

16:23

they were able to achieve by this crazy Cortez

16:25

story about the guy who burned the boat. So

16:28

this phrase has been repeated, right?

16:31

When I started looking at my own life, I

16:33

realized, you know, the most radical

16:35

decision I had ever made when my

16:37

back was against the wall was when I was growing up

16:39

poor and desperate, taking care of my mother,

16:41

and abject poverty. These words lose

16:43

their meaning. But when I say abject

16:45

government cheese and hawking flowers on street corners,

16:49

I needed a way out. And the

16:51

universe gifted me a hack,

16:53

which was my mother was a high school dropout chair at

16:55

a GD. And she got a GD as an

16:57

adult. And I was making,

16:59

you know, 375 an hour McDonald's and

17:01

working at a deli overnight. And I

17:03

kept seeing these ads in newspapers because, you know, you're

17:06

scrambling, right? And it said, you know, college students

17:08

only. And I was like, what the hell is it about being a college student?

17:10

That enables me to 2x my income. But I need

17:12

to be that thing. And then I remember

17:14

I had an epiphany. What if I dropped that on purpose,

17:16

got my GD? I watched my mother go to

17:18

Queens College. I was like, I could go to college two

17:20

years earlier. And I remember excitedly

17:22

telling

17:23

my guidance counselor, like, Mr.

17:25

Barkin, you know, because I get picked up by the police all the

17:27

time. And I'm like, no, you don't need to send the cops anymore.

17:29

Like, I figured it out. I'm gonna drop

17:31

out of high school, get my GD on purpose. And I'm

17:33

gonna go and I'm gonna get a job, you know? And

17:35

now one of the first lessons I learned is

17:38

when people don't have context because you're carrying shame,

17:40

their advice is corrupted.

17:42

So the advice I would get is, you young man, you're

17:44

gonna ruin your life and whatnot.

17:46

I'm like, but you don't understand, mom's dying

17:48

in the room next door. I live in dirt, roaches,

17:50

and I have no food. So you think

17:52

I'm supposed to work at a deli overnight, carry my butterfly

17:54

knife so I don't get jumped and sit in Mrs.

17:57

Ackman's English class? But he didn't know

17:59

all.

17:59

that because I was hiding it with my Jordache jeans,

18:02

right? And then everyone was constantly

18:04

trying to intervene and get me to change my mind. I'm like, I

18:06

know this is true. I don't know where this comes from, but I

18:08

know this is the right move. And then that's when the

18:11

Burn the Boats hit me. And that's how I'm using it in the book. I

18:13

was like, I need to commit, but I'm

18:15

anxious and uncertain and I have no support structure.

18:18

What's going to force me to commit? And I came

18:20

up with the idea of sabotage. And I decided

18:22

I would get dropped, I would, I would fail every

18:24

single class in high school. So I got to the point of

18:26

no return where no longer were they lobbying

18:29

me to stay, but lobbying me to leave. And

18:31

I sat in the back of the same home room with

18:33

the drug dealers and everybody making different life

18:35

choices. And I, and I, and

18:37

it happened.

18:38

People wrote me off. And in

18:40

fact, the goal became to move

18:42

me across the street to a euphemism

18:44

called auxiliary services for high school, which

18:46

is a way to not count me as a dropout. And

18:48

then I executed. So, so what, what,

18:51

you

18:51

know, and then fast forward, I became press secretary of the

18:53

mayor of New York by the day. And I was 26. So I went from three 75

18:56

an hour to a hundred grand an hour. And it's in the book, but

18:58

more of the point of the story where I wrote the

19:00

book

19:01

history, the military general is intuitively

19:03

knew this science bears it out that,

19:06

that if you allow your conviction

19:09

to be eroded with a version, a lesser

19:11

version of your plan, a, which is what a backup plan

19:13

is a way to achieve the subordinate goal.

19:16

I want to be a musician,

19:18

but you know, I'll settle for a job

19:21

at the music store. That's your plan. Do you plan

19:24

merely contemplating

19:25

your plan B statistically materially

19:28

diminishes the likelihood that you're going to be successful.

19:30

Back to your first question about being a doubter. The

19:32

thing is not saying to you that you can't inherit the earth.

19:35

The thing is saying the thing you need to work on is

19:37

a risk, you know, synthesis process,

19:40

whatever it is that's making the doubt repeat, because

19:42

I'm telling you, you are much less

19:45

likely to be successful. That is a fact.

19:47

That's not mean. That's not rude. That's not

19:49

lecturing. It is a absolute scientific

19:51

fact. And that's the purpose of the book. Now, people

19:54

say this on Instagram, burn the boats,

19:55

you know, jingoistic nonsense. The

19:57

problem is, it's not actionable. So why the book is.

19:59

so nuances, I want to make it actionable

20:02

and tease apart what are the metaphorical

20:05

boats that a lot of us share, you and I share anxiety,

20:07

right? Somebody listened to me as a poor

20:09

kid out there being like, Oh, I get that. I know I have shame

20:11

because I couldn't, I can't, I'm living in a

20:13

dirty house, whatever it is. What are

20:15

the metaphorical boat boats that are the underlying source

20:17

of that doubt so that we can burn them and

20:20

I could increase the likelihood that you'll actually achieve

20:22

planning for

20:23

the person, let's say myself listening

20:26

and I see you, I see your success.

20:28

I see, I hear your success story,

20:31

but that might even provide more

20:34

doubts because I go,

20:36

how did he manage to do this? And

20:38

I won't even take action. What

20:41

advice do you give based on the belief

20:43

and based on what you talk about that we, we

20:46

can do it. We can burn the boats when

20:48

somebody has a lot of a lack of belief

20:50

in themselves.

20:51

Such a great question. I mean, it's

20:53

the reason why I work so hard to not

20:56

manifest as the person on Shark Tank

20:58

and all the

20:59

assumptions you might make about me or the person teaching

21:01

at Harvard Business School. These are pretty

21:03

heady credentials. It's a reason why the book is just

21:05

littered with a degree of tragedy,

21:08

not like I'm a hero, more like look at the lingering

21:10

effects of it. The book ends about my mother

21:12

and how I never reconciled. I mean, it's 47,

21:14

I'm embarrassed, 48 year old man still teary

21:17

when I talk about her last day

21:19

on earth. These things don't quite heal,

21:21

but also talk about, I opened the book with real failure,

21:24

my SPAC, where I returned the 200 million, my TV

21:26

show getting canceled and my

21:28

cancer, my divorce. So my answer

21:30

to you is like, you can't read the book

21:33

and not see some version of your flawed

21:35

self, anxiety or otherwise.

21:37

I don't want to share the story of imposter syndrome at

21:40

Shark Tank. I'd much rather you see me on tape. You're like,

21:42

that bad, that badass was natural. But

21:44

then I tell you that I'm in the hotel room freaking

21:47

out and then wanting to sub out and say

21:49

I got food poisoning. So that's

21:51

my first answer. My second answer is the most,

21:53

I didn't care to write an autobiography. I mean,

21:55

when I tell you that the truth of my life is airbrush,

21:58

like just trust me one day. when I matter

22:01

or when there's a use of my story in a bigger way,

22:03

I'll share the details. But I only

22:05

use my story to credentialize the

22:07

following, which is,

22:09

I'm not extraordinary or exceptional.

22:11

I was put in extraordinary circumstances. This

22:13

is what happens when you have such clarity of crisis

22:15

decision making. The thing that set in motion

22:17

my whole life

22:19

was the clarity of crisis decision making. My mother,

22:21

my mother did die. And like, you

22:23

know, when you have an instinct as a child, like one, I'm in an unnatural

22:25

situation,

22:26

I'm very depressed and feeling slightly self destructive.

22:29

And so it gets growing. And she's

22:31

going to die. All those things prove to be true.

22:34

So what I'm trying to say is here's my case

22:36

study.

22:37

Now this is unhealthy to live

22:39

in this place of hyperarousal cortisol, but

22:41

we can replicate the clarity of crisis decision

22:44

making in peacetime. And sort of here's

22:46

how so I would only say to anyone out

22:48

there who wonders or has doubts,

22:50

trust me that the book was engineered for you, not

22:52

engineered for Kevin O'Leary, who would give a ship but what do

22:55

you think? Right? It's about it's about

22:57

the rest of us who do. And so I mean,

22:59

I hope if the best part about the book so

23:01

far

23:02

has been people appropriating the

23:04

very thing you reacted to, which I agree with you, I

23:06

can't stand that sort of jingoistic macho

23:08

nonsense. They, after

23:11

reading the book, they subconsciously appropriated for

23:13

their own purposes. A woman emailed me today said

23:15

she needs to have spinal surgery, she'd been putting

23:17

it off. But she knows that she'll never achieve her

23:19

full potential if she doesn't overcome the fear. And

23:21

she scheduled the surgery. I'm like, Wow, you've

23:24

now turned the boat from Cortez

23:26

and the aspects to spinal surgery. So

23:29

that's, that's my answer. You said something that

23:31

does haunt me not haunt me. That

23:32

haunt me is the wrong word, because it was a conscious

23:34

decision. But you understand now, which

23:37

I love you the first conversation I've ever had to know exactly

23:39

what I'm doing with that phrasing that

23:41

that will it alienate too

23:43

many people that there are not enough people

23:45

read a book and know what it really was about

23:48

that it won't do that it won't do the work it was

23:50

intended to do. Like, it might have been too Jedi

23:52

have a choice that actually, you know, I might have

23:55

outsmarted myself, you know, like, I guess

23:57

we'll find out. I don't think so.

23:59

You're a both in stature

24:01

and in accomplishments, a big guy worked

24:04

in football, was at the scene of 9-11. It

24:06

just, we need more people

24:10

calling attention to this in a way

24:12

that whether you get it or not,

24:15

it brings it to the forefront. In my experience,

24:17

just on this podcast alone,

24:19

a lot of people who have reached the true

24:22

pinnacle have left so,

24:24

so much destruction in their

24:26

wake. Even they would say they don't know if

24:28

it's worth it.

24:29

What do you think about that? It totally resonates,

24:32

right? I mean, I know Dave Chang

24:34

was asking me, he's like, hey Matt, are you

24:36

happy and like satisfied with what you had? I'm like, no.

24:39

And I was like, you Dave, he's like, doesn't

24:41

even enter the equation. So, so

24:43

I would agree, you know the part that I can't stand

24:45

in life is these supposed,

24:48

you know, guru types who purport

24:51

to have the answers to the test and then they

24:53

sort of, they lecture down, right? And,

24:55

and, and it's perpetuating a lie

24:57

that there's this narrative arc and everyone has a redemption

24:59

story because you're required to know, right? You have to have

25:01

had some kind of vulnerability, some bullshit

25:04

trials that's been amplified, right? I stumbled,

25:06

my ego got the best of me, but I am

25:09

now humbled. And let me lecture you for 9.99 a

25:11

month, right? Exactly.

25:14

And then, yeah, so what I wanted to do with the book

25:16

is like, like constantly pull the rug out

25:18

under you and just you think everything's gonna work out.

25:21

It's like, no, you know, last

25:23

day on my mom's earth, all she wanted was somebody to bathe

25:25

there because she couldn't bathe anymore. Like it just,

25:28

and that's reality. Humans progress and regress.

25:30

And so part of me with the book just feels like

25:32

my own rebellion against this nonsense

25:35

Instagram culture where people are purporting not only

25:37

have the answers to the test, but have implemented

25:39

the answers. Like I say this all the time, I wrote my book,

25:41

so I'd read my book because like half

25:44

the time I can't stick to it. You know what I mean? So that's

25:46

my thing. Your thing is a little more of the hustle

25:48

culture drives you nuts. Mine is the inauthenticity

25:51

of the advice that I think is doing a disservice

25:54

because, you know, it resonates with

25:56

a lot of people because they're grasping right. And they're

25:58

like, thank you. I love

25:59

you. guru, but what they don't realize subconsciously

26:02

is like, yet I can't implement your advice guru.

26:04

And you don't really ever talk honestly about, so

26:06

I'm like, I'm going to asterisk the shit out of my book.

26:09

I'm going to call nonsense

26:11

every time I can't implement it. You know what I mean?

26:13

Because it's not because it's even worse than

26:15

to hold myself out there as a guy who burned

26:17

the boats and is able to burn them all the time. Right.

26:20

Which you admittedly don't and can't.

26:23

Where can we start

26:25

if we might have an idea or a general

26:27

idea of what we want to accomplish, but we

26:29

are currently sitting in our inaction,

26:32

concern, and anxiety. So

26:35

great question. I mean, look, a lot of this

26:38

might be, might be a confirmation

26:40

bias, but there's a reason why the book, again,

26:43

back to Jedi, right? Oh, it's a burning

26:45

boat. It looks a little pagan, right?

26:48

It looks like, it's actually

26:50

a child's boat that was reconstructed from scratch

26:53

as a rendering. And it's

26:55

meant to be a child's paper boat floating in a bathtub.

26:57

And, and the reason why

26:59

I started there is, and I'll explain

27:01

why I'm starting here in this question, is

27:04

a lot of the issues that

27:06

we need to deal with, the metaphorical boats stem

27:08

to childhood, stem from childhood. They are

27:10

legacy issues that we're afraid to confront because they're

27:12

so painful. So to give you a couple of fact patterns

27:15

that recur constantly, for me, it was the legacy

27:17

issue of, I was running from this boogeyman. I

27:19

mean, I grew up in hell. Everyone has their

27:21

own version, but like real torture, like in

27:23

a weird psychological types

27:26

of torture being parentified and a job I didn't

27:28

want,

27:28

you know, felt like I was groomed

27:30

to be the hero, you know,

27:31

and that messes you up in all sorts of ways. But my

27:33

only point is, I had a lot of metaphorical boats that

27:35

stem from childhood, that were holding me

27:37

back to hold to, if you think about my testicular

27:40

cancer story about showing up that day, that

27:42

really is a reflection of necessity,

27:45

I better show up, or I will

27:47

lose my job tomorrow. And I will be eating government

27:49

cheese again.

27:50

I'm no, when I got diagnosed, that was my number one,

27:52

like, I will not be defeated

27:54

at this moment, right? They will they will not get

27:57

me not cancer. I was like, I don't care about the mutation. I was

27:59

like the enemy. me who is going to take my job away and my

28:01

food. So that's a legacy of, you know,

28:03

so what I'm saying to anybody out there,

28:05

if you were rejecting the premise, where

28:08

you're beating yourself up, because you're like, I don't know why I can't fully

28:10

commit,

28:11

there's probably a legacy issue that

28:13

is that is getting you stuck. Because I do think we're

28:15

wired to want to pursue our true

28:18

purpose, like that is in everyone's factory settings.

28:20

And so my journey in the book called Get

28:22

in the Water does begin with auditing,

28:25

how do you how do you courageously

28:27

look within and I hopefully I model it,

28:29

you know, by telling you starting out with some shocking

28:32

details in the book, the first part of the exercise

28:34

look within. And then the if you're a person that

28:36

under under indexes for self awareness,

28:39

self awareness can be cultivated first by

28:41

belief that self awareness is useful. So

28:43

if you're someone that's like, I didn't go to therapy, I

28:46

therapy stupid, you know what I mean? Like, all

28:48

these people are just taking Ritalin and everything because

28:50

everything's fine. You know what I mean? You're, that's

28:53

not smart. Start start from a place

28:55

of self awareness. So I know we're talking psycho babble, but

28:57

it's what we talk on this show, by the way. Well,

28:59

right. Like you said before, I'm sure you know

29:02

exactly what makes you doubt. Now maybe it's

29:04

genetic or maybe it's, you know,

29:06

legacies, but you know what makes you hesitate,

29:09

why you didn't want, you know, to tell anybody

29:11

that you launched a podcast, you know, 10 years ago,

29:13

you know exactly why you did. We all always know

29:15

exactly why we do what we do. Yeah. But the

29:17

scary part about that is

29:20

you have people

29:21

in situations similar to what you

29:24

found yourself in, which is for lack

29:26

of better term. I mean, literally survival was

29:28

the fear, right? I can't go back to having nothing.

29:31

There's the flip side, which is what I have found

29:33

myself into, which I had such a

29:35

good upbringing that trying

29:38

to build that same upbringing

29:40

for my kids is really,

29:43

really hard.

29:44

I don't know how to have time and

29:46

be available and have money

29:48

and be emotionally available and all

29:50

these things. And so

29:52

my thing is like, I don't know how to

29:55

build

29:56

freedom and purpose into

29:58

my life. There are people who I think.

29:59

think are listening going,

30:02

it's just too much work.

30:04

It's too hard to do these things.

30:08

It's too likely to fail. Over

30:10

rationalization of taking

30:12

risks, I think, is a really tough

30:15

thing to get through. How do you push

30:17

forward when you know the reality of

30:20

the outcome oftentimes?

30:21

So part of the underlying premise

30:24

of the premise of the book, there are multiple

30:26

levels. One of them, though, is that, and I

30:28

use this easy language, so it sticks,

30:31

so a little cliche, but is the joy of living is

30:33

in the striving, right? That I,

30:35

one, offer to anyone listening that

30:38

the joy you truly seek is

30:41

trying to touch the ceiling of your potential

30:43

and your capability. That is the thing we really

30:45

are seeking. We are not seeking the result.

30:49

Anybody who's been to the mountaintop can tell you that's why you're talking before.

30:51

They're all melancholy. It's because there's nothing to see,

30:53

and we like looking up more than we like looking down. So

30:57

if you first have to, in order for the book to

30:59

resonate, you have to accept the premise that what you truly

31:01

seek is to push the boundaries and understand

31:03

why the hell are we here and what am I capable of doing?

31:06

It's why marathon runners get melancholy, and so do Olympians,

31:08

right? Because they like the training better. So

31:11

I have accepted the premise,

31:13

and maybe it's a spin on my, a little bit on my

31:16

ADD and my intensity, is that what I seek

31:18

is to know,

31:19

can I do it, right? And so agree

31:21

that sometimes from one angle, my

31:24

book and my life can seem really hard, I don't

31:26

want to teach at Harvard Business School. Like, why

31:28

would you go from Shark Tank to do that?

31:31

But then when you take a step back, like the deep down, I always

31:33

want to teach. And I never got a chance

31:35

to know because I was denied the upbringing

31:37

to know could I really compete

31:39

at the highest level? And am I really rationalizing

31:41

that I only went to a city school because

31:43

I had to, whereas maybe it was the only thing

31:45

I could do? My mind is not sure. And

31:48

that's worth a lot to sort of prove to me. But

31:50

I would argue most, the vast majority

31:52

of people listening here, what I'm saying right now is resonating because

31:54

it's a safe, warm way of saying it. You really

31:57

want to know what you're capable of, right? And so,

31:59

you know, I think we have to start there. Once

32:02

you peacefully settle into that, I no

32:04

longer resist, like, oh, why am I trying again?

32:07

Now, it's hard. There have been moments with this book,

32:10

it's so smart how you started this, where I'm like,

32:12

why am I having to work so hard to explain what the

32:14

book is about to overcome the objection? I'm like, well,

32:17

you did it on purpose. Because you knew

32:19

there's a greater prize. If you could reframe

32:22

this

32:22

act of pursuit of ambition in

32:25

a way that is actually actionable, you can unlock

32:27

millions of people or thousands of people who

32:30

self-selected out of ambition because

32:32

they carry anxiety or shame, or you know

32:34

what I mean?

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Man, I wish I had transcripts. You're

34:44

listening. Go back and listen to that again

34:46

because I interpreted

34:49

it, but I could not explain

34:52

it the way you just did. The

34:55

number of people who self-select out

34:57

of reaching for what they can

34:59

do, not just because

35:02

of their internal struggles,

35:04

but because of what the world tells

35:06

them should be the

35:08

norm. We're losing so much

35:10

from that.

35:12

It makes me want to high-five you. Yay! Right?

35:15

Actually, my North Star of this whole ... I love studies, as

35:17

do you, right? I'm so crazy. When my

35:20

crazy ... I mean, I don't sleep half the time. I

35:22

still have a lot of PTSD, to be honest with you,

35:24

that I don't talk about.

35:26

I love studies. One of the studies

35:28

that I love is that Wharton one, but there's a little reference ...

35:31

I love this, and I can't find where

35:33

it came from.

35:34

There was a survey done on a trained platform of 150

35:36

people, and they asked 150 people, do

35:39

you have a backup plan? And 48%

35:41

said yes. Now, a big

35:43

percentage of the 52% was lying too, right? I'm

35:46

like, wow, my book is for the 48%

35:48

because I know you won't get what

35:50

you could get. And your 48% has

35:53

been driven probably by you're only presented

35:55

with a binary choice. It's either macho, and

35:57

you're all in, and you're a sucker, and get out of the ...

35:59

field son, you know what I mean?

36:02

Or you're going to have to settle for mediocrity. There's

36:04

a third way, which is to tell you the truth about

36:06

how it works. And maybe

36:09

we can form a federation of the willing that isn't self-possessed.

36:13

Let's do that, actually. I know this is what your

36:15

whole book's about, but

36:16

what do you say to the 48% who

36:19

are like, I strive for some, but I

36:21

have responsibilities such as family that

36:23

I want to

36:24

also be present for, so

36:27

I can't do the hustle culture, but I have back up

36:29

plans. I can't burn the boat. There's so much

36:31

swirl. How

36:33

do we get out of that? This

36:35

is great. So definitions matter, words

36:38

matter, so we need to define what we truly mean

36:40

by what plan A is.

36:42

Plan A is a goal, but

36:44

it's not the tactics. So the first little

36:46

trick your mind will play on you is like, well, that

36:49

sounds like madness to keep repeating the same thing over and

36:51

over again. No, plan A is just simply the goal.

36:53

And using the easiest example, it's like, I'm going to be

36:55

a musician. I'm going to make that my career. I'm

36:58

going to go all in. Let's use that. It's an easy one

37:00

to do. My plan A is to be

37:02

a musician. I have a dead end nine to five job. I hate

37:04

it. My plan A is to be a musician. So

37:07

what does plan A incorporate? And this is probably the most important

37:09

part of the book. Plan A and

37:11

burning the boats requires you to

37:14

process risk at the beginning of the journey,

37:16

to lean into your anxiety, your paranoia.

37:19

I am the most paranoid risk taker you'll ever be, but

37:21

I do it at the beginning of the journey, and here's

37:23

why. And

37:23

here's my four step process for

37:25

doing it. Question number one is like, what's

37:28

the worst

37:31

thing that could happen if

37:33

my plan A does not work out? If me

37:36

going to be a musician

37:37

does not work out, what's the worst thing that happened?

37:40

I'm going to

37:42

find myself without a job at the end of this

37:44

journey and have burned through $40,000 of my

37:46

savings. And okay, what are the consequences of

37:52

that happening? I won't be able to buy a house for

37:54

another four years. And

37:56

now second part of the question, what

37:58

will I do to mitigate

37:59

the very worst thing that is going to happen

38:02

as a result of me going on a plan A. And

38:04

the reason why that's so important, and this is what

38:06

those generals knew since the beginning of time, we

38:09

have hardwired into our prefrontal cortex

38:11

or whatever the ability to mitigate all danger

38:14

that we can contemplate. And we

38:16

don't trust that because we don't ask the question

38:19

at the beginning. So in the case of our little musician, you

38:21

know what he said? I'm going to go get a shitty job again

38:23

for a few years until I figure out, right?

38:25

So he's already got his risk mitigation plan. Now three,

38:28

what's the likelihood statistically

38:30

and to the extent to which I can forecast and handicap of

38:33

the worst thing happening,

38:35

the worst possible thing happening,

38:37

actually happening, right? And now in my case,

38:39

because I have anxiety and I, you know, it catastrophize,

38:42

that my worst thing is so damn remote,

38:45

that the statistical percentage

38:47

likelihood that it will happen is like 2%. And

38:49

a lot of mine revolves around losing

38:52

my wealth, my prestige, my inability to feed

38:54

my children, which is a huge narrative

38:56

in my mind, right? In the case of the musician,

38:58

it would be, you know, he never gets a chance

39:00

to play in a band, you know, to be like, he

39:03

can handicap. And, you know, we're aware of our

39:05

capacity generally. And this is a good way to pressure

39:07

test the grandiosity of our plan

39:09

A. And so that guy probably like, you know, I'm probably

39:12

going to get on a band because I'm willing to quit my job.

39:14

So I probably have a 90%, 10% chance I

39:15

never will. And then here's, here's

39:17

the most important part of the sequence, which is your why.

39:20

And this is what I went through with Harvard.

39:22

What would I not be willing to do, endure,

39:25

experience,

39:26

right, suffer through in order to achieve

39:28

my plan A. And when my plan A, my

39:30

why is powerful enough, that usually involves

39:32

coming within an inch of my life, like, I will

39:35

walk on coals, I will sacrifice almost

39:37

anything, I will do anything to get this book into the hands of

39:39

people who need it. It is it is so

39:41

worth

39:42

my suffering that I'm willing to do anything.

39:45

So my with me, what's the worst that was going

39:47

to happen with this book, I'd seem like a like,

39:49

like an idiot, and the book would fall flat, like,

39:52

and I would be embarrassed. And I've, you know, whatever terrible

39:54

things, right. So that four step sequence

39:56

is so important because people when I use, you

39:58

know, go all in, burn the boat.

39:59

they instantly reflexively

40:02

assume it doesn't involve processing risk. Exactly.

40:05

Yes. Yes. Plan A, and

40:07

that's why it's important that jingoistic nonsense, which doesn't

40:09

help people, the hustle culture, because they don't talk

40:11

about the nuance of like, no, no, embrace the neurosis.

40:17

You say embrace the neurosis and you also mentioned

40:20

something. You said, we don't trust that

40:22

our brain is able to do this. A lot

40:24

of things that resonated with me are

40:27

this idea of call it an intuition,

40:30

really learning to listen to

40:33

whatever you want to call it, that inner voice. Right.

40:35

Well, can I use a good case study? Absolutely.

40:38

That's what I was going to ask. Yeah. So let's talk about, so

40:40

why does it matter? Why would it matter

40:42

to eliminate

40:44

the contemplation of the backup

40:46

plan at the beginning? Why does it matter?

40:48

So let me use the book as a perfect illustration.

40:52

So in the book on page 54, whatever it is,

40:54

there's a page devoted to me, getting

40:56

divorced, right? I do not want to put that

40:58

in there, but I felt compelled that

41:01

there's a person out there, their boat

41:03

is the pain and suffering of, and the shame

41:06

of having a failed marriage.

41:08

And they're pretty damn depressed. And you

41:10

know, there's a high suicide rate among people or

41:12

divorce, especially men. I thought if I could just

41:15

share it, I could, I could touch somebody

41:17

and that would be worth whatever

41:19

my sequence of risk was that I talked about, sharing

41:22

it now it's embarrassing. I don't want it out there. Right. So,

41:24

okay. I've already done the work and

41:26

I put it in, right? Now the book is about to be published. It's

41:28

four weeks before it comes out, right? Already

41:31

at the printer. And then I get

41:33

a phone call. Entrepreneur magazine loves

41:35

the book. There's one part that they would like to exert.

41:38

It's that page. And I'm like, of

41:40

all the damn pages. And

41:43

I said no. And so I was

41:45

going for a walk

41:46

and like, and thinking,

41:49

revisiting all the reasons why I originally put it in the

41:51

first place, as if I hadn't done it already.

41:54

And think about the consequence of me

41:56

not following my own advice. I didn't put

41:58

it out there in the world to help that one.

41:59

person who would have helped. I wasted

42:02

all the mental energy that could have been devoted to making sure

42:04

I pushed the book, launched the book correctly. I was

42:06

revisiting something. So when you embrace

42:08

this formula, you stop asking,

42:10

will I do it?

42:12

Can I do it? Should I do it? You've

42:14

already said I'm doing it because we already

42:16

did it at the beginning, right? And so let me tell

42:18

you the consequence, right? So I energy

42:21

leakage from pushing the butt, I'll never be able to quantify

42:23

the energy leakage of revisiting something that couldn't be changed,

42:26

right? Tentative, tentative behavior.

42:28

So now I don't put it in Entrepreneur Magazine. Fast

42:31

forward, you know, two months later, I do an interview,

42:33

a podcast in which I talk openly about these

42:35

issues.

42:36

I get a message from somebody on LinkedIn

42:38

saying, Hey, Matt, I just listened

42:41

to you talk about this. This is the first night I'm

42:43

being apart from my three children. And

42:45

I'm so depressed and sad, but your talk gave

42:48

me hope.

42:48

I sent him a long message about what he needs to

42:51

do to get through this, what life will look like for him. He

42:53

sent me back a message saying I'm crying. I said, give me your address.

42:55

I wrote him a note. Page 54 was written for

42:57

you. So I share

42:59

this with anybody listening to think about that the energy

43:02

leakage made it less likely that I'd be successful in promoting

43:04

my own book. I self centered. We

43:06

all do that to ourselves. The world never gets a chance

43:08

to experience. Probably 100,000 people didn't

43:11

get to read the excerpt because it would be much more efficient.

43:14

And here's that person was a case study to reach out

43:16

to me to confirm that the book has the

43:18

right practice, you know, it's a lot sorry

43:20

to go on and on. No, no, no. That's make it less

43:22

abstract. Yeah. Well,

43:24

frankly, those are the things that they might make

43:26

it less abstract. They also make it fascinating

43:28

too, because you think about real

43:31

world implications. I think when we get into

43:33

anything where we're trying to reach masses,

43:36

we get this, uh,

43:38

unwarranted belief that these aren't people

43:40

that are consuming. In fact, I had a, a

43:43

good friend of mine say, I hate when people

43:45

talk about

43:46

content and customers

43:49

because that just makes it seem like

43:51

we're just creating nonsense for

43:54

somebody to buy it. Like, why don't we talk about

43:56

conversation and people? Well, that's

43:58

one of the parts about the book.

43:59

I've had to get comfortable with is like a master of

44:02

the obvious, right? Like these aren't somebody

44:04

somebody I love it This is a Brit did a great interview on

44:06

the book

44:06

with a real snarky accent I've come to light the guy

44:08

we got together because it was so pleasantly weirdly

44:11

cruel But he was saying you

44:13

know much, you know, there's not exactly

44:15

like new ideas in a book I said, oh did I represent

44:17

that I have any new ideas? I don't think there are any new ideas

44:19

in the universe I've no I just I have new packaging

44:22

though

44:22

The packaging is more likely for you to assimilate

44:24

it But I have no ideas but I had to get comfortable

44:26

with agree with the master of the obvious, which is why Humbling

44:29

myself and being like hey, I'm not trying to

44:31

tell you that this is revolutionary I

44:34

just think God gave me a gift to synthesize information I'm

44:36

gonna share it with you and use my moral authority

44:38

moral being I come from dirt

44:40

to get you to believe it Yeah, well and there

44:42

isn't much new in the world, but

44:44

to your point the packaging and I've seen

44:47

a lot I've read a lot. I'd talked to a lot of people.

44:49

I

44:49

think a big difference is authenticity,

44:52

right? Am I trying to my trying

44:54

to package it in a way that will resonate or am

44:56

I putting it out there in a way? That I believe

44:59

there's a difference right? There is a difference

45:01

and motive matters a little bit Like I'm

45:03

aware that engineering does matter because

45:05

what's the point if I wrote something then

45:08

it's ego gratification Which is where most of these

45:10

books go wrong there, especially people

45:12

with success. It's like a victory lap It's like

45:14

nobody gives a shit like and even if they did, why do

45:16

you care? You know what I mean? So like that packaging

45:18

does matter and I

45:19

funny you say cuz I'm always auditing like okay What's my

45:21

motive

45:22

and is that a pure motive? It's okay

45:24

to packaging and understanding it that it's gonna

45:26

be received because my underlying motive is for people

45:29

to actually process it, right? Yeah, I gotta

45:31

ask you there's a book I read a long time

45:33

ago It's called the psychopath test and it's

45:35

basic premise is that people in

45:37

the c-suite are

45:39

multiple times more likely to have

45:43

sociopathic tendencies actually be

45:45

able to be labeled as something sociopathic

45:48

psychopathic because that's what it takes to get there, right?

45:51

I do think that that is true I think

45:53

that to make it to the top of the mountaintop takes a

45:56

lot. It's rare rarer.

45:58

Isn't that doesn't? not happen.

46:00

It's just rare to meet people who are such as

46:02

yourself, who are introspective, empathetic,

46:06

successful, all these things.

46:07

What would you say are the traits or

46:09

the things that allowed you to

46:11

both be extremely successful, however

46:13

you want to look at it, but also

46:16

still ask the question, what

46:18

is my motivation? Because I know

46:21

very few people ask that when they're putting

46:23

out a book and they're millionaires. They don't say like, is

46:25

this the right motivation? They go, it's a marketing tactic.

46:28

It's a calling card. It's an ego thing, whatever.

46:30

It's so true. I hear that all the time. Like, really?

46:33

All these years of efforts, so you can get a credential, so you

46:35

can manipulate other people for a higher speaking fee. 100%. Right?

46:38

It's like, you know, it's funny, even the act

46:40

of me trying so hard, seems people are like,

46:42

wow, you're really trying hard. Like, what did I do it for?

46:46

Well, you have a book now, it's bestseller. Like, who cares

46:48

if it's a bestseller, you know? But so

46:50

I love this question. I tend to agree

46:52

with you. I think that actually, sociopath

46:55

has a cousin called narcissist, right? And I think that

46:57

from even a percentage basis, narcissist is even

47:00

more, you know, now some, to some

47:02

extent, it's practical, because those people are

47:04

more immunized from the criticism.

47:06

And you get a lot of them when you're rising up. So what enabled

47:08

me to be the way I am, I think it's,

47:11

I felt so victimized

47:13

or not victimized, persecuted and abandoned

47:16

as a kid, that I gravitated

47:18

towards justice.

47:20

My hobby as a kid was going to

47:22

the library and going back to different times of

47:25

subjugation and history, believe it or not, printing

47:27

out those New York Times articles, and I put them all over my wall.

47:30

I was obsessed as a kid with the Holocaust. I

47:32

was obsessed with all these chapters in history about

47:34

when people lose their agency. I don't know why. So

47:37

for whatever reason, I was very defiant

47:39

that, you know, I want to have a voice.

47:42

And then maybe because my mother cultivated

47:44

this hero narrative, right, that I

47:47

then felt like I want to meet out justice on other people's behalf.

47:49

So that's part of

47:50

it. I'm just trying to psychoanalyze. But then also,

47:52

the real reason is I witnessed

47:55

how profound it

47:58

is to have no power and how

47:59

how that trumps all other

48:02

incidental concerns. When you're on this earth and

48:04

you have been robbed of your power and you

48:07

truly, you can't even feed yourself, you can't bathe yourself,

48:09

you eventually can't leave and nobody cares,

48:12

I would always imagine, imagine one person

48:14

had cared how it would have changed the trajectory of

48:16

my life, but also my mother wouldn't have died. Like

48:19

the, I always imagined the impact and

48:21

for my life, I've always carried forward

48:24

that revelation that the highest

48:26

and best use of me will always be to

48:28

ameliorate suffering, right? That doesn't mean I'm Mother

48:30

Teresa, it doesn't mean I'm not selfish, I don't have my

48:32

own needs, I wanna have nice things, but I

48:34

just feel like if I'm perfectly honest that

48:37

I witnessed something that most people never

48:39

get a chance to see. And by the way, if they do see

48:41

it, they react to it by saying, well,

48:43

no one did that for me. And thank God,

48:46

like for whatever reason, I decided my empathy

48:48

will not be something that this situation is gonna steal from me,

48:50

but I'm gonna learn how to protect myself because

48:52

it's very easy to be hijacked in life. And so I'm

48:54

gonna figure out, I'm very good, I call it, I have a philosophy

48:57

of proportional violence.

48:59

If you choose to hurt me, I will only

49:01

retaliate to the extent to which it's a drop. And

49:04

then we will resume again. And like,

49:06

I hold no grudges, but I'm very capable

49:08

of beating somebody back to the middle. I

49:10

like that.

49:11

And that's always been my life philosophy. But anyway,

49:13

back to your point, I don't think, I think the

49:15

world, I don't know if the world really moving this way, we're

49:17

moving this way with language that we value empathy

49:19

at the C-suite level and stuff,

49:21

but I just think it might be parroting probably

49:24

more than reality. Yeah, I would,

49:26

well, I'm gonna need to plead the fifth on this one given

49:28

what I do for my career. So last

49:32

question for you, I know we're coming up on time. If I

49:34

were only to listen to the last

49:36

minute of this podcast, what message

49:39

would you want people to take away?

49:40

I want people to take away, do not self-select

49:43

out of ambition because you believe

49:45

that you're somehow fatally flawed and that

49:47

you don't get to reap the fruits of this universe. There's

49:50

a way for you to do it too.

49:52

And that's the underlying point of this book. You

49:54

just need one, somebody to prove it to you that

49:56

the thing that's missing from your life is the full commitment

49:59

to...

49:59

you how to do it, how to change it, which

50:02

is the auditing and the self-awareness to not be

50:04

afraid to look within. Hopefully the fact that I wasn't

50:06

afraid and willing to acknowledge it when I don't have to

50:08

anymore gives you the feeling of like, well, he did

50:10

it, I can do it. And then

50:12

follow the formula. This formula realizing

50:15

that the thing that you're probably been missing is this risk

50:17

synthesis process that enables you

50:19

to go all in. Do not reject this philosophy because

50:21

you feel like it's simplistic or because

50:23

that's not at all what I'm saying. It's very, very nuanced.

50:26

So I'd want them to hear that whole sequence. Oh, they're going

50:29

to hear it. I got

50:29

to tell you also one of the things you

50:32

said about the formula. There's a question in here.

50:34

When was the last time I was truly happy or happiest?

50:37

And what do I need to do to feel that

50:39

again or get there? And I was like,

50:41

damn, that's a good one. And that's just like one

50:44

small part of one small page of hundreds

50:46

of pages. Yeah, that came from my conversation with

50:48

Harvard students. Anybody out there who didn't go to Harvard

50:50

Business School, I certainly didn't, could relate to this.

50:53

I'm teaching and I have access to these amazing students. And

50:55

what I'm amazed is that anybody here

50:57

who listening to this who didn't go there would

51:00

presume now that person's life is entirely

51:02

de-risked by all material standards. They're

51:04

able to get a job that six figures, they have prestige

51:06

forever, they've come to the end level of vulnerability

51:09

and the insecurity and the confusion that they share

51:12

is the same as anyone listening. And that

51:14

was new to me. Like, wait, what? And I realized,

51:16

wait, I don't need to do career counseling

51:19

here. That's easy. I need to do life

51:21

counseling. And so the question I would always reset

51:23

because they've been conditioned to be like, what

51:26

private equity firm do I want to be? It

51:28

would be, no, tell me who you want

51:30

to be, not where you want to be or what you want to do.

51:33

What kind of where, what environment felt right

51:35

to you? Were you a creator or were you

51:38

implementing?

51:39

Did you have freedom or did you have

51:41

structure? Like these kinds of existential

51:44

questions. So that one is a simple way of distilling

51:46

these conversations I would have with these students

51:48

that I was like, wow, I guess we all struggle. We just

51:51

don't know how to get to where we want to go. We don't know how to identify

51:53

where we want to go. And that's a pretty good North Star. Well,

51:55

yeah, I don't think the questions are posed to us in the right

51:57

way at the right time with time to.

51:59

Think about it. And that's one of the things your book does.

52:02

Matt, it's incredible. Really enjoyed the conversation.

52:04

Feel like I found a kindred spirit.

52:07

The book is Burn the Boats, Toss Plan B

52:09

Overboard, and Unleash Your Full Potential.

52:12

Anywhere else you wanna keep our listeners

52:15

abreast of what you're doing?

52:16

I'm on LinkedIn a lot. I just feel like

52:18

LinkedIn is like your vegetables and Instagram

52:22

is your candy. So I'm on

52:24

there too. But LinkedIn is where I engage. If you wanna send me

52:26

a DM. If you're going through something out there,

52:30

let me know. If you can't afford the

52:32

book because you whatever, just DM me and

52:34

I'll send it to you if you're in the United States. With

52:36

no questions asked, because that's fun too. It undermines the

52:38

publisher sales. DM me whatever you're going through.

52:41

That's fantastic.

52:42

Matt, thanks so much. All right, thank you.

52:47

This week's guest was Matt Higgins. As

52:49

always, it was hosted by Chris Stemp and

52:52

produced by yours truly, John

52:54

Rojas. Matt's book,

52:57

Burn the Boats, Toss Plan B Overboard,

53:00

and Unleash Your Full Potential can be found wherever

53:02

books are sold. Now for the quick

53:04

housekeeping items. If you'd ever like to reach

53:06

out to the show, you can email us at smartpeoplepodcast.gmail.com

53:10

or message us on Twitter at smartpeoplepod.

53:14

And of course, to stay up to date with all things Smart

53:16

People Podcast, head over to the website,

53:19

smartpeoplepodcast.com and

53:21

sign up for the newsletter. All right,

53:23

that's it for us this week. Make sure you

53:25

stay tuned because

53:26

we've got a lot of great interviews coming up

53:28

and we'll see you all next episode.

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and entertaining. Another has said that Gary

55:30

has the rare talent of making you genuinely

55:32

interested in a topic you would never

55:35

have thought would appeal to you. Fans

55:37

of the show are so passionate that

55:39

they even work to join the Completionist

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Club, the group of dedicated listeners

55:44

who have listened to all 900 plus

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and counting episodes. I

55:50

highly recommend you check out Everything

55:52

Everywhere Daily's recent episodes on

55:54

the history of the Speaker of the House

55:56

of Representatives

55:58

and NASA's human computers.

56:00

All the episodes are informative, interesting,

56:03

and best of all, always under 15 minutes.

56:06

So check it out. Learn something new

56:09

every single day with everything

56:11

everywhere daily.

56:12

Find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

56:15

or wherever you get your

56:17

podcasts.