0:27

Hello, and

0:27

welcome to Snyder's return at

0:29

table-top roleplay podcast. My

0:29

guest today is turned scribbling

0:32

into a fine art drawn

0:32

inspiration from many across the

0:36

tabletop role playing game

0:36

community and put pen to paper

0:39

in the best possible way. Just

0:39

to give you an outline, they are

0:43

a critter, writer, gamer, and

0:43

part of the family. Are you

0:47

gonna learn a lot today? Of

0:47

course we will. Now, before the

0:51

ink runs dry on us, it is an

0:51

absolute pleasure to chat with

0:54

RPG cartoonist, plus one Pen

0:54

O'Smiting, Pen. Welcome to the

0:59

show. Thank you so much for

0:59

having me here. Now, it's an

1:02

absolute pleasure. I know we've

1:02

had this programme for quite a

1:05

while. So I'm glad we've been

1:05

able to find the time to speak

1:09

before we go into all your

1:09

amazing sort of productions and

1:15

work and, and sort of creative

1:15

outputs. telling us a little bit

1:19

about yourself and how you got

1:19

into trouble the tabletop role

1:22

play game side of things, please.

1:24

Sure, I love

1:24

tabletop. And I was introduced

1:28

to it in the time honoured

1:28

tradition of being dragged in by

1:31

someone you're dating. And so I

1:31

began when I was a 14 years old,

1:37

when I started sitting down and

1:37

playing role playing games. And

1:41

it was within about a year and a

1:41

half before I started jamming

1:44

for that same group, and loved

1:44

it loved it. Very bad though,

1:49

putting a teenager in charge of

1:49

a whole bunch of other

1:52

teenagers. That's a good idea.

1:52

So beyond the power trip, it was

1:58

really great to be able to sit

1:58

around with a lot of creative,

2:01

intellectual, funny people and

2:01

create stories together.

2:05

And so are you

2:05

still GM'ing and playing

2:11

regularly?

2:11

I am which I'm

2:11

very fortunate to do through

2:14

this interesting dystopian

2:14

reality that we've survived the

2:18

past couple years here. Um, so

2:18

yeah, I actually am still

2:22

jamming for regular group online

2:22

I GM for a group here locally,

2:29

but we haven't been able to be

2:29

with each other physically. And

2:32

then I'm always doing these

2:32

other GM opportunities for

2:35

charity streams and one on one

2:35

opportunities. And it's just

2:39

been a delight and a pleasure as

2:39

well as listening in on

2:43

everybody else's games and

2:43

drawing along.

2:46

Definitely, we

2:46

get you're in just a moment. I'm

2:49

just intrigued by your your home

2:49

games, if I may they established

2:54

or or they homebrew,

2:55

pretty much everything I do is Home Brewed. We didn't have the phrase

2:58

homebrew. When I started doing

3:03

gaming, it was Did you buy the

3:03

module? Are you looking it up? I

3:08

made it up. I made them up all

3:08

the time, mostly because the

3:11

gentlemen that were at my table

3:11

tended to already have memorised

3:15

everything in the GM guide, and

3:15

in the monster manual. So in

3:20

order to try and keep up with

3:20

them, and or exceed them, I

3:25

learned very quickly, I had to

3:25

make my own creatures, my own

3:28

world, my own lore, or just

3:28

psychologically torture them.

3:32

And that worked great. And

3:32

that's still true today.

3:36

Today, I will

3:36

keep that in mind as we go

3:38

through. So you you picked up

3:38

the game. So relatively young, I

3:47

think that's fair to say and

3:47

have carried that passion

3:50

through and when did that

3:50

passion turn into a artistic

3:55

output.

3:56

We're gonna say

3:56

obsession. Um, so it turned

3:59

artistic actually, when I was

3:59

sitting with that same group in

4:02

high school, because I just love

4:02

to grab quotes when they were

4:05

funny, or brilliant. And I would

4:05

write those down. And then I

4:09

would also draw those moments

4:09

that were cracking us up at the

4:13

table or when somebody did

4:13

something particularly brilliant

4:16

or particularly ridiculous,

4:16

often both. And then we would

4:21

have them for the next time that

4:21

we gained either in a week or in

4:24

a month or whenever we got together, we can sit down, review the quotes and pass

4:26

around the pages of cartoons

4:29

showing each of us being epic.

4:29

And it brought us right back

4:32

into that moment that we had

4:32

just left. So it was a great way

4:35

to review. It was a great outlet

4:35

for creativity. And I still have

4:40

them I still have files and

4:40

files, drawings that I

4:43

remembered that I can still

4:43

share with my friends who I'm

4:46

still in touch with and it's

4:46

just an instant smile.

4:49

It really is.

4:49

And so you've taken that from

4:53

from your own group and expanded

4:53

that outwards. So what was it

4:57

like sort of turning it from a I

4:57

was gonna say obsession for my

5:01

passion into a into a business

5:01

effectively.

5:05

Well, actually,

5:05

again, the beginning of it was a

5:09

apparently forcing myself on

5:09

other people. Because I wasn't

5:13

in a game at the time. And I

5:13

missed that I missed that

5:16

horribly. And what I do

5:16

professionally is I'm an author,

5:20

and I was in between book deals.

5:20

And in that dry spell, I wanted

5:24

to refill the well. And I

5:24

thought, well, what makes me

5:27

happy. And the truth is, what

5:27

made me happy was making other

5:30

people laugh and smile. And I

5:30

remember that feeling being

5:33

around the table. And I thought,

5:33

I know what it's like to throw

5:37

my creative juices out into the

5:37

world. And books and stories and

5:41

not know if they land or not,

5:41

don't have a lot of measures,

5:44

you don't know how it resonates.

5:44

And so I thought, why not do

5:48

that in other people's stories

5:48

and their tables, and just let

5:52

them know, hey, somebody is

5:52

hearing you is moved inspired by

5:58

you drew a little cartoon share

5:58

a little smile with you. So I

6:01

put it up on Twitter, and

6:01

Instagram. And I would tag

6:04

people so that they knew that I

6:04

wanted to give credit where

6:07

credit was due with the jams or

6:07

the players themselves, in order

6:11

to say, hey, somebody is out

6:11

here listening, you're doing

6:13

great. And the response was just

6:13

amazing. Sometimes I was their

6:18

first fan art. Oftentimes, I

6:18

wasn't what everybody really, a

6:22

lot of people would reach back

6:22

to appreciate it and, and then

6:25

the smile came back to me. And

6:25

so it just became the cycle, and

6:28

then an obsession, and then it

6:28

kind of took off on its own. So

6:33

I'm very grateful to my patrons

6:33

who keep me in this habit. And,

6:40

and I do commission work. I've

6:40

been flown out for doing live,

6:45

drawing alongside performances

6:45

as they occurred. That's just an

6:49

astonishing thing. It has filled

6:49

that hole that normally it would

6:52

be at the cons table side,

6:52

drawing along.

6:57

But that's

6:57

that's amazing. And so on attack

7:01

this in two parts. First of all,

7:01

you mentioned that patrons

7:05

Patreon so where can people find

7:05

yourself and and your, your

7:11

obsessive output. I'm just gonna

7:11

play on that now you said

7:16

it's a you can always find me I'm kind of smiling on all the socials, kind

7:18

of smiling. I'm on Patreon and

7:22

coffee and Instagram and

7:22

Twitter, there have done some

7:26

articles on Geek and Sundry been

7:26

on featured on d&d beyond once I

7:34

got very excited about that. And

7:34

I've really had the pleasure of

7:37

being able to speak to a number

7:37

of people to connect with a

7:40

number of people in in different

7:40

circles of ttrpg content. And I

7:48

just it's always been really a

7:48

pleasure and very moving. I do

7:54

have my favourites people that I

7:54

followed for a long time or

7:57

people from my hometown, because

7:57

I'm from Chicago. So there's a

7:59

whole Chicago crew that I really

7:59

just have been delighting

8:03

listening to them and watching

8:03

as they grow and change and

8:07

expand become great at what they

8:07

do.

8:10

Well, that was

8:10

that was the sort of the second

8:13

part of the question, which is

8:13

also in itself, a two pronged

8:16

question. So forgive my strange

8:16

question structure. What? Which

8:22

of your drawings has brought you

8:22

the most happiness? personally?

8:26

Which of your drawings? Have you

8:26

had the greatest feedback from

8:30

the sort of the best review from

8:30

a DM or group that has come back

8:35

to you?

8:35

Wow, that's, that's an interesting question. Um, so attracting one, but you

8:37

have to understand, I have now

8:43

because I can tell them my

8:43

files. When I do my drawings, I

8:47

then scan them, I correct them

8:47

with little pens and takes

8:51

forever digitally, and then put

8:51

in the lettering and mounted so

8:56

that it will be seen on Twitter.

8:56

So I know my count, and I just

9:00

passed 5000 5000 individual

9:00

little googly eyed cartoons. So

9:06

it's hard to actually remember

9:06

one that was really great. There

9:11

are so many of them that make me

9:11

smile, and laugh. There are

9:15

particular ones that have that

9:15

that turn, being able to draw

9:20

tabaxi are especially fun

9:20

because they don't get to draw

9:24

cats that often. So be able to

9:24

do that or in the case of into

9:29

the Motherland, say of a hyena.

9:29

So that kind of character that's

9:34

fun to draw. I enjoy that. Gil,

9:34

who comes in the night is from

9:40

not quite heroes podcast so

9:40

that's that's the tabaxi that I

9:43

think of off the top of my head.

9:43

I've drawn for tonnes of

9:49

adventure zone and critical

9:49

role, but they've got such a

9:53

huge fandom I'm not even see I

9:53

don't think anybody even knows

9:55

that I exist in those phases as

9:55

opposed to spaces like I'm Luke

10:00

dagger and stone mecanim forge

10:00

Academy with weld mount with the

10:06

wild mountains as new. I follow

10:06

the entirety of hit dice, and

10:11

the entirety of not broadswords.

10:11

But some of the some of the

10:16

programmes that were out there

10:16

that ran their course. And I was

10:19

able to draw the entire time. So

10:19

I felt really attached to those

10:24

characters. And pretty much gems

10:24

were right back all the time, or

10:30

where I get something from, like

10:30

our geek who's because like this

10:34

made me smile. This makes my day

10:34

those are the moments that

10:36

really, that's that's exactly

10:36

why I do it. That's exactly why

10:40

I do it. saving face and the

10:40

crew over crafted anytime that I

10:45

draw that they all jump on it

10:45

and get very excited. And now

10:50

with da performance in the

10:50

dungeon that is really excited.

10:57

Once it comes out, which sounds

10:57

bad. I'm talking about romancing

11:00

judgement getting excited, but

11:00

you understand that there are

11:02

good people for that podcast.

11:02

It's a great, I truly am

11:07

astonished by just the talent

11:07

that you find out in the ttrpg

11:13

space people who are putting

11:13

things out on d&d, Grandma, from

11:17

a ttrpg space all the way to

11:17

storytelling podcast like a girl

11:21

in space pod. Just beautiful

11:21

interpretations. And and what I

11:27

like is listening to different

11:27

regions, different countries,

11:31

different areas, people who are

11:31

bringing in LGBTQ ideas,

11:36

experience points has some

11:36

really just great, great

11:40

characters and great situations,

11:40

listen to high rollers in

11:45

England. And getting getting

11:45

that just any time you just hear

11:49

different people adding things.

11:49

I love listening to Tanya I love

11:53

listening to the into the

11:53

motherland's. And before that

11:56

they were doing I mean, just

11:56

beautiful stuff. And the family,

12:02

obviously, with la by night, and

12:02

then as it's continued to grow

12:06

under call. So yes, I wish I

12:06

could say that there was just

12:11

one picture. What there isn't

12:11

because they are just so much

12:15

fun.

12:16

No, and the

12:16

5000 and growing count, sort of

12:22

dedicated to, as you say, some

12:22

some incredible con, other

12:27

content creators out there who

12:27

the majority of which are doing

12:30

this off their own back for for

12:30

free. A lot of them. It shows

12:34

their dedication to the craft

12:34

and your dedication to your

12:38

craft. And it's it's such a

12:38

great space to be in the

12:42

community of the white noise.

12:43

Well, let me

12:43

clarify something. What I was

12:46

trying to do was listen to

12:46

somebody Episode One, to get

12:49

them to give them feedback. Tell

12:49

them how great they were. And

12:53

maybe somebody would see that

12:53

moment and want to know more. So

12:56

you'd tagged them, let them find

12:56

out where this this group is

12:59

that maybe they find more fans?

12:59

Isn't that great? More

13:03

listeners, what I didn't expect

13:03

is that then I would get

13:05

addicted. So at one point, I was

13:05

listening to 27 podcasts

13:10

regularly. That's impressive.

13:10

That's insane. Okay, that's

13:16

just being polite. Sorry, you

13:18

have to stop

13:18

being brilliant people. Um,

13:21

because they became addictive. I

13:21

wanted to know more.

13:24

Wow, that's

13:24

that's impressive in its own in

13:27

its own right 27. Well, I

13:27

struggled with about four. And

13:30

that's where the commute to work

13:30

that I get the time to dedicate

13:34

to them. So

13:36

it's a great honour for working out though I gotta say, fair, fair, I have to

13:38

do my workout because that's the

13:43

only way I'm gonna get this

13:43

other hour. And I

13:47

can't argue

13:47

with that logic. So that's the

13:52

drawing that the card inside you

13:52

mentioned earlier, you're also a

13:56

writer. So where would people be

13:56

able to find your written work?

14:02

Well, I don't

14:02

write under plus one kind of

14:05

smiting that doesn't actually go

14:05

very well as a name. Where I

14:09

write is the the content that

14:09

I've created four games over a

14:15

drive thru and HBO is under Don

14:15

Metcalf. And those are my why

14:19

books are also under that on the

14:19

science fiction fantasy. My

14:24

credits under when I wrote for

14:24

role playing games is under my

14:28

maiden name. And you don't get

14:28

to know this because we'll just

14:34

let that let that pass but

14:36

previous

14:36

experience and a foundation to

14:39

build from so your drive thru

14:39

RPG not to dwell on that other

14:43

information to the the content

14:43

on Drive Thru RPG, would you

14:48

mind sort of taking us through

14:48

that because it's mentioned on

14:50

your Patreon? Again, highly

14:50

recommend people go and check

14:54

that out. So what would they

14:54

find the viewers on Drive Thru?

14:58

And what's out there right now? Something that grew out of that online campaign

15:00

experience. I wasn't even the

15:04

GM, I was just a player. But I

15:04

was late to the game, they had

15:09

all started playing and I was

15:09

jumping in. And I didn't know

15:12

anybody. And I created a

15:12

character in order to

15:15

interrelate with people I needed

15:15

to start off and just jump in.

15:18

And I made a character who was

15:18

from an elite prep boys school.

15:23

And so I gave him a drinking

15:23

game that I made up, in order to

15:28

ostensibly get to know people,

15:28

and also get dirt on them.

15:32

That's basically and this game

15:32

was so popular in our group, we

15:37

must have played it half dozen

15:37

times, before members of the

15:42

group were like, you should

15:42

really share this. And so I

15:45

started playtesting it and they

15:45

got obsessed. I mean, it just,

15:49

it kept going. So with the help

15:49

of two of my fellow gamers, I

15:56

was able to put it up and it it

15:56

became a daily bestseller. And

16:01

so then we've created a second

16:01

round and a third round will be

16:03

coming out shortly.

16:04

I want you to

16:04

call me No, I'm sorry.

16:07

It's called to

16:07

the truth. It's a drinking game

16:09

for players young and old. It is

16:09

a good way to not only learn

16:14

about each other, all those

16:14

tidbits when we make up a

16:17

character, that's part of our

16:17

backstory. And you're hoping

16:21

that will come out, you're

16:21

hoping that situation will show

16:23

up, that you'll be able to kind

16:23

of let those little secrets out.

16:27

Sometimes it doesn't sometimes

16:27

it doesn't. This was one way to

16:31

get some of those back story

16:31

secrets out now, in a natural

16:35

way of having this drinking game

16:35

where you can either answer a

16:38

question, not answer a question

16:38

and drink. And that shows that

16:41

it's a lie. So it's a wonderful

16:41

kind of Truth or Dare game and

16:47

if the GM is there, it's a GMOs

16:47

game. You don't have to have the

16:49

GM there, but if they are, they

16:49

can hear all the great hooks for

16:54

getting characters to jump. It's

16:54

it's an instant gimme. And it

16:59

was a way that amazingly,

16:59

brought the group closer

17:03

together, both characters and

17:03

players became much more kind of

17:08

like a trust exercise. So

17:08

amazing things happened with the

17:12

knowledge they came out of to

17:12

the truth. And sounds more like

17:17

fun.

17:17

It sounds it it

17:17

sort of rang rang a bell in my

17:22

mind. group meets in Tavern

17:22

group stays in tabin group

17:26

leaves tabin eventually dm comes

17:26

up with plots to sabotage group

17:30

in a fair and sort of

17:32

story aqui very

17:32

much so so it's it's you get to

17:35

choose, are you going to tell

17:35

the truth? Are you going to tell

17:38

a lie. And if you do, you have a

17:38

chance to drink the tooth. If

17:43

you drink a little sharp

17:43

dragons, two bad things will

17:46

happen, but

17:47

has a link in

17:47

the description below. Go and

17:50

check that out. It's it's sounds

17:50

like a lot of fun and something

17:53

I'll be checking out. And she

17:53

mentioned the third round. Part

17:57

Three is round three, round

17:57

three will be coming out soon.

18:01

Each one has 25

18:01

different questions that you can

18:03

ask or adjust as you see fit.

18:03

But it's a great way to get your

18:08

character to bond your character

18:08

secrets to come out or not. And

18:13

the GM to get an insight into

18:13

what you guys are doing. Each

18:17

game also will come with two

18:17

variants. Other ways to play.

18:22

And it's it's just been, it's

18:22

been a delight, getting the

18:26

feedback from people who have

18:26

played it really enjoyed it.

18:29

It's great for not only your

18:29

session zeros, your beginning

18:33

campaigns ways to get to know

18:33

each other, especially before a

18:36

stream, because you'll suddenly

18:36

have a lot of those trust points

18:39

and interrelations and things

18:39

that now you know about another

18:44

character, but even your old

18:44

groups, your favourite group

18:47

around the table, being able to

18:47

sit down and ask these questions

18:51

is eye opening, people have

18:51

created entire subcultures, or

18:55

backstories, or hierarchies

18:55

based on getting the questions

19:00

ahead of time and being able to

19:00

think about it for your

19:02

character.

19:03

Yeah,

19:03

absolutely. And so with round

19:06

three, sort of in the future,

19:06

what else is in the future for

19:09

you.

19:10

And I'm also

19:10

playtesting right now a game

19:12

that I'm developing for a four

19:12

player game that's on

19:16

collaborative storytelling. It's

19:16

short, it's about a two to four

19:19

hour game. I'm very interested.

19:19

I really love things that are

19:23

collaborative, co creative with

19:23

brilliant, intelligent, creative

19:28

people at the table. And that

19:28

tends to be gamers. So I've been

19:32

enjoying getting more and more

19:32

people to table and seeing what

19:35

happens in order to make that

19:35

kind of step by step improv

19:38

skill, a practice for gems, and

19:38

how to collaboratively create

19:45

your own downfall for players.

19:45

So that's fun. So that's going

19:49

on right now. I have another

19:49

project that I'm keeping in mind

19:54

for Discord. So I'm keeping that

19:54

kind of on the download so I can

19:57

figure out more about that, but

19:57

I'm excited. But won't my common

20:00

the fall. In the meanwhile, I'm

20:00

still doing the charity streams.

20:04

And being a GM for hire, I've

20:04

always met some really amazing

20:08

people at the table who want to

20:08

have a deep role playing

20:11

experience, which is kind of my

20:11

thing, which I very much enjoy.

20:16

And the one on one gaming

20:16

experience, which I do called

20:20

role playing resurrection, which

20:20

was originally designed for

20:23

those of us who had been in a

20:23

campaign that was suspended

20:26

because of the pandemic. And

20:26

we're dying to play our

20:29

character, but the campaign is

20:29

not running, or stopped, or

20:33

dropped. And trying to get back

20:33

to that, or when you've played a

20:37

character, and he's kind of

20:37

painted yourself into a corner,

20:40

and you made a decision that

20:40

maybe you didn't want and want

20:42

to take it in a new direction.

20:42

This was a way that you could,

20:46

in game, play any character from

20:46

any system, go through the

20:49

experience, and be able to kind

20:49

of get that fire back, renew

20:53

your energy, get your groove

20:53

back, let's go and then be able

20:56

to go back and play the

20:56

character again, your beloved

21:00

character, or the character that you wish would have been different.

21:02

But it's a

21:02

really good premise. And since

21:05

you do it for others, is there a

21:05

character you've always got,

21:09

just just dancing in the back of

21:09

your mind that you're like, if

21:12

someone could turn the tables,

21:12

this character the way in for

21:16

me, there's,

21:17

there's always,

21:17

there's the characters that you

21:19

left behind, characters that

21:19

wait patiently with their eyes

21:23

wide, and their hands pressed up

21:23

against the glass. And then

21:27

there are book characters. Now I

21:27

like to say there's a very big

21:29

difference between book

21:29

characters and role playing

21:31

characters, just like there are

21:31

differences between being an

21:33

author and being a GM, being an

21:33

author with book characters

21:36

means I get to make all the

21:36

decisions, I know how things are

21:39

going to go, and I can push them

21:39

any way I want. Because GM is a

21:42

very different thing. It's not I

21:42

have a story to tell, and I'm

21:45

taking characters with me, it's

21:45

that I get the privilege of

21:49

being the narrator to somebody

21:49

else's epic story of becoming a

21:52

hero. It's their story. And I

21:52

get to shape and mould it and

21:56

mess with it. But I'm not

21:56

directing it. I'm not trying to

21:59

force it into places that it

21:59

doesn't want to go. It goes

22:02

organically by the players. And

22:02

actually, I find that to be a

22:06

richer, more rewarding

22:06

experience, because people come

22:09

up with ideas and insights and

22:09

decisions that I would have

22:13

never come up with. And that's

22:13

why it's brilliant.

22:16

Definitely. And

22:16

you mentioned as a GM rather

22:20

than a DM for how, what are the

22:20

systems? Or do you enjoy playing

22:24

outside of the dungeons and

22:24

dragons that you picked up? Many

22:29

years ago,

22:29

many years ago.

22:29

So yes, I did pick up on some

22:32

dragons, and also heroes.

22:32

Anything that was a superhero

22:37

genre I really enjoyed. I did do

22:37

Shadowrun for a while, I enjoy a

22:44

lot of the Noir. Lately, what

22:44

I've been enjoying are things

22:48

that are pretty heavily role

22:48

playing bass, one of my

22:50

favourites is for the queen, by

22:50

Alex Roberts, and that's evil

22:55

hat productions. I think it's a

22:55

brilliant game. And I love

22:58

playing more about questions and

22:58

answers and creating things out

23:01

on the fly. Which is why also, I

23:01

enjoy playing those lasers and

23:06

feelings and hacks, like honey

23:06

heist, or chatter off dead or

23:10

sneak honk, or some of the

23:10

things that are out there.

23:12

They're just brilliant and fun

23:12

and quick. And then you get to

23:17

play with people who are brilliant. And finally, I

23:19

know, it's

23:19

sounds like fun. And so you have

23:25

such a unique perspective on the

23:25

way tabletop role playing games

23:30

are in the community is what do

23:30

you see it going from here?

23:35

You've been able to capture it

23:35

in it's almost rorish form over

23:40

these these times for your

23:40

images? What sort of progression

23:43

Have you seen? And where would

23:43

you like it to go in the future?

23:46

I am so excited

23:46

about what's been going on in

23:49

ttrpg. Because it's kind of it

23:49

sounds funny. So we brought it

23:54

out of the basement and onto the

23:54

screen, seeing how many people

23:58

resonate with the idea of

23:58

storytelling and being a

24:01

character and being able to take

24:01

that on adding their voice,

24:05

knowing that they can be a GM as

24:05

well. They can create worlds and

24:08

invite people into them. Getting

24:08

that agency out there and seeing

24:12

people excited about it is

24:12

probably been the best part.

24:16

Hearing more voices hearing

24:16

various voices, the more voices

24:20

and the more perspectives the

24:20

better. Stories become. And

24:25

that's true with the canon. But

24:25

I think also with the idea of

24:28

just creation itself, like

24:28

people are making more and more

24:30

neat things. And I get to listen

24:30

or play along if I'm really

24:34

lucky. where this is going I If

24:34

you had told me that when I was

24:40

14 that someone would pay money

24:40

to go to a theatre and watch

24:43

people play Dungeons and Dragons

24:43

on a stage or make a cartoon

24:47

based on your game or graphic

24:47

novel. There is no way. I mean

24:53

that's a dream. People are

24:53

living the dream right now, and

24:56

seeing where it goes next what I

24:56

think what we're going to go

24:58

next is As it becomes more

24:58

mainstream, seeing how people

25:03

supported into other media, and

25:03

hopefully seeing it embraced in

25:09

new directions, and with new

25:09

communities and new voices, and

25:12

therefore we're going to start

25:12

learning more about different

25:15

stories, different backgrounds,

25:15

different opinions, that then

25:18

can become more embraced by the

25:18

mainstream. Once it becomes a

25:22

story that's shared, it's our

25:22

story, it becomes possible. It's

25:26

something that we recognise is

25:26

real. And that I find is just so

25:31

much possibility. so much great

25:31

places to play. And I know if

25:35

you really like your modules, we

25:35

really like your, your books,

25:37

that's great. Nothing against

25:37

that. There's brilliant minds

25:40

behind it, hearing new voices

25:40

coming up, and sharing their

25:44

thoughts, and how they see the

25:44

world or how they would paint

25:47

what a tavern is, or what

25:47

adventure is, or what a monster

25:51

is. That's, that's what I find

25:51

most exciting.

25:53

Yeah. Right

25:53

there with you. People come and

26:01

support you on Patreon. And I'm

26:01

sure I'm sure there will be

26:03

I would love it

26:03

more than merrier. I'm really,

26:07

without my patrons, I would not

26:07

be speaking with you, I would

26:10

not be as brave as I was to

26:10

start making my own content

26:14

available in non traditional

26:14

formats, I would not have a ring

26:18

light and a camera, I would not

26:18

have those things, because I

26:21

would think it couldn't be me.

26:21

That couldn't be me. It's just

26:24

me and my friends and a little

26:24

doodling in the corner, laughing

26:28

at myself thinking how clever we

26:28

are. So now Now, this is

26:32

something that's been made

26:32

possible because people believe

26:34

in me, and are able to support

26:34

me financially to support my

26:38

habit.

26:40

And interesting

26:40

way of phrasing it. So you

26:44

mentioned that sort of the

26:44

progression. If if someone was

26:50

to, I won't say, compare

26:50

themselves to you, because

26:53

that's not fair to all

26:53

individuals. But if someone was

26:55

inspired by you, I think that's

26:55

a fair way of putting it. What

27:00

have you learned from your early

27:00

drawings now through to, you

27:06

know, there's great Patreon

27:06

community, you have the Twitter

27:10

following you have the support,

27:10

right across the community. What

27:15

advice would you give to someone

27:15

who wants to dip their toe in,

27:18

as it were? And maybe take that

27:18

first step mixing metaphors?

27:22

Well, I think,

27:22

looking back on some of my early

27:25

stuff, when I first put it up, I

27:25

can't believe I put it up. And

27:28

practice, practice, practice has

27:28

shown even with my very scribbly

27:33

doodlee drawings, there's been a

27:33

huge progression in skill level.

27:39

And I'm pretty proud of that.

27:39

There are people who are fine

27:42

artists and people who do

27:42

beautiful work, I am not that

27:45

person, I do find fast, grabbing

27:45

kind of the energy of the moment

27:51

drawings. So if you're inspired

27:51

by that, I gotta wonder why

27:54

you're not picking up a pen on your own, because you're definitely gonna do better than

27:55

I am. So go do that. Um, the

27:59

idea of is a good enough. Is

27:59

anyone gonna listen? Does anyone

28:03

care? That I am your I'm your

28:03

test subject. Yes, go do that.

28:10

But put it out there. Don't just

28:10

draw for yourself, draw for

28:12

other people, make connections,

28:12

appreciate people, acknowledge

28:17

people spread the smiles is my

28:17

big thing. That feeling of

28:21

connection and of being heard,

28:21

can only fuel more good things.

28:26

And that is what I'm most

28:26

excited about. I would love to

28:30

be able to do this more and feel

28:30

supported by it be able to

28:33

expand, I've been doing live

28:33

drawing on Twitch, and still

28:37

experimenting with that because

28:37

I still don't have the

28:39

technology that can capture it

28:39

the way I want. And that's a

28:44

stretch goal. Those are things I'm going to have to work on. And with support, it only gets

28:47

better. And then I get to

28:51

support more people. So that

28:51

only gets better. So we'll see

28:54

as a community, we are an

28:54

incredibly supportive group. And

28:57

I'm very grateful for who I have

28:57

and I'm very grateful for those

29:00

people who I do not have yet

29:02

and will have

29:02

soon I'm sure. So with your your

29:08

writing commitments, your

29:08

drawing commitments, everything

29:12

that you're trialling testing

29:12

and play testing, and be

29:16

committed. Yeah. Do you get time

29:16

to relax is drawing the way you

29:22

relax? Or do you have do you

29:22

sort of step apart from it and

29:26

give yourself some mental health

29:26

time as it were, I was gonna say

29:29

a break, but you know, bring

29:29

yourself back to centre,

29:32

whether you see

29:32

it on the screen or not. Drawing

29:36

is my way of processing the

29:36

world. Usually also the times

29:40

that are not so much fun. That's

29:40

the time to write. It's the time

29:43

to draw. It's a way to put that

29:43

process in. It's when I'm not

29:50

writing or drawing that becomes

29:50

more challenging and certainly

29:52

less fun. Nothing against

29:52

washing dishes or folding

29:54

laundry or going to work. But

29:54

that's just a different kind of

29:58

energy. The only thing that's

29:58

Hard about that is that most

30:02

writers that I know of not so

30:02

much an artist, but most writers

30:05

tend to be introverts, and I am

30:05

not. And I miss human beings.

30:10

And so if you're concentrating

30:10

on your writing in your drawing,

30:15

those are solo activities. And I

30:15

think that's the hardest part of

30:18

that. And sometimes I don't want

30:18

to go through the scanning and

30:23

the tweaking, and I just want to

30:23

draw, and have fun with my crew.

30:27

And a lot of times I do get to

30:27

do that. But then they want to

30:30

know the drawings.

30:33

But that's,

30:33

that's fair enough. So with with

30:38

all that in mind, we've spoken

30:38

about where the community is and

30:42

where it's going and your your

30:42

own progression. And future. Is

30:48

there anything that we haven't mentioned yet that you would like to bring up anything that I

30:50

may not have touched on so far,

30:54

of, there's just,

30:54

there's something about the

30:59

community as it is growing. And

30:59

there are growing pains, there

31:04

is this element of who gets to

31:04

say, what, who gets to play

31:10

what, who gets to learn about

31:10

what, and there's something in

31:15

there, where I'm like, in

31:15

fiction, and certainly at a

31:19

table, this is the time to ask

31:19

questions and make mistakes,

31:24

please do it here. Do it with

31:24

your friends, do it with a group

31:27

that hopefully has their safety

31:27

tools in place. or understanding

31:31

that the people here are all

31:31

here to have a good time and co

31:35

create and work together. And if

31:35

you screw up on something that

31:40

would be sensitive out in the

31:40

real world, do it here, or in a

31:44

book or something like do it in

31:44

some place where it's safe to

31:48

trust fall into their arms, and

31:48

then be told you screwed up. And

31:53

there's a lot of forgiveness in

31:53

that. And there's a lot of power

31:56

and humility in that. And I want

31:56

to see more of that. I think

32:00

people are scared. And I don't

32:00

want people to be scared, that's

32:03

part of drawing new googly faces

32:03

is that it's fine, we're fine.

32:09

You're great. We're doing some

32:09

good stuff. But there are times

32:14

where people stepped over a

32:14

line, or did something not

32:18

smart, or said something that's

32:18

smart, and you watch it happen.

32:21

And it's sort of like a train

32:21

wreck. And how they approach it.

32:26

Not only with each other, but

32:26

also to you the audience who are

32:28

listening, if that's if that's

32:28

the case, or to your home group.

32:32

If it's not, it's not that I

32:32

want people to get upset. But I

32:36

would much rather mess up at my

32:36

table and have my players who

32:40

trust me. And I trust them, tell

32:40

me and then figure it out. I

32:45

would much rather, let's have

32:45

that conversation, the

32:49

conversation that we can have at

32:49

the table that we can't have in

32:51

a water cooler. You know, let's

32:51

let's do it here. You have

32:55

questions you want to play, what

32:55

if play what if you should do so

33:01

respectfully, certainly. And

33:01

with safety tools, and with

33:04

acknowledgement of where

33:04

everybody's lines and veils are

33:06

or if you wanted to do research

33:06

in something. And if somebody

33:09

else is sensitive to it, and

33:09

they want to talk to you about

33:11

it, that becomes a conversation

33:11

that you can have, and come to

33:15

some agreement. But if nobody

33:15

takes that step to try and get

33:19

out of their bubble, you're not

33:19

going to have the stories that

33:23

are possible, you're not going

33:23

to go where your mind can take

33:27

you and you can't hold on to the

33:27

hands with the people that

33:30

you're with, and go along and

33:30

see what amazing things you can

33:33

create because you're playing

33:33

safe. Safety tools, yes, safe

33:37

maybe. So maybe, maybe that's my

33:37

dare. That's my, that's my 2/3

33:42

truth dare go forth and you try,

33:42

you may fail, you may say this

33:48

doesn't work for me or didn't

33:48

work for somebody else, or

33:51

somebody else got upset or the

33:51

flag or red card and you

33:54

suddenly feel terrible. And then

33:54

you can talk it out. But I'd

33:57

much rather you do that here,

33:57

then go out in the world and get

34:00

upset.

34:02

Yeah, that is

34:02

very fair. And thank you for

34:04

sort of putting across so

34:04

eloquently. And you know, I

34:08

appreciate your insight. Having

34:08

both listened to a wealth of

34:12

content that I will probably

34:12

never reach the levels of no

34:17

matter how long I listen to

34:17

podcasts or watch streams. And

34:20

from the gym side and the safety

34:20

tools you've mentioned, is so,

34:26

so vital now to allow the games

34:26

you mentioned and again, you're

34:32

not the first one, I'm sure and

34:32

I truly hope you're not the last

34:35

to reinforce that safety tools

34:35

make the game safer, but better

34:41

yet really

34:41

baulked at the safety tools and

34:45

I have to say we didn't have

34:45

that when I was 14 and around

34:49

the table. I wish I did,

34:49

actually, because that would

34:52

have given me a little more

34:52

agency, especially being the one

34:57

non male at the table. Yeah, I

34:57

would have felt better about it.

35:04

And, and we could have

35:04

communicated some of that

35:07

earlier without the stumbling.

35:07

But again, we stumbled. And yet

35:11

we were able to talk, even as

35:11

young teens, but certainly at

35:14

cons, those safety issues you

35:14

want to talk about and making

35:18

people feel welcome and making

35:18

people. And a lot of people get

35:21

worried about the PC police No,

35:21

no player character, but you

35:24

know how that works. But here's

35:24

the thing. The idea when you sit

35:29

down in a chair, is you're

35:29

entering a fantasy world, or a

35:33

science fiction world or what

35:33

exists, it's a fictional world

35:36

that we are co creating together

35:36

to have an adventure. A lot of

35:40

people focus on the adventuring

35:40

part. And I'd like to focus on

35:43

the CO creating part, or the

35:43

word together, in order to have

35:47

the ability for people to share

35:47

their vision, share that voice,

35:51

share that character, that

35:51

insight, and create something

35:55

that is beyond that, which you

35:55

would have created sitting by

35:58

yourself writing or thinking of

35:58

your character, your character

36:03

has to grow. And in order to

36:03

grow, it has to be pushed, and

36:06

given input and given unexpected

36:06

challenges or questions from

36:11

other characters, work your GM

36:11

or whomever. And you have to be

36:15

open to that if you're not open

36:15

to that, go write a book. If

36:19

you're at a table, you have to

36:19

be open to this. And in order to

36:22

be open to this, people have to

36:22

feel safe in order to feel safe,

36:25

you have safety tools.

36:25

Definitely, if you can do a con

36:28

check a strength check index

36:28

check, you can do a safety

36:31

check. There's no reason not to

36:32

100% 100%. And

36:32

in that vein of sharing and

36:37

creativity Would you like to

36:37

share where we can find your

36:40

creative outputs.

36:42

Plus, you can

36:42

find my creative outputs on Pena

36:44

smiling on all the socials. Most

36:44

of the things I do are on

36:48

Twitter, I will admit that where

36:48

I have committed to insanity,

36:52

and three to five cartoons, five

36:52

days a week, they do not repeat.

36:57

Same Day, unless I have been

36:57

hired to do this before where I

37:02

dedicate one day, to all the

37:02

cartoons being from an episode

37:06

from a certain podcast, in which

37:06

case, then I think they're going

37:11

to be three to five, and they actually turned out to be more like six to 12 lots of cartoons.

37:12

I'm sorry, people are brilliant,

37:17

I can't help it. Um, so that

37:17

goes up, I do update my

37:21

Instagram and my coffee gallery,

37:21

somewhat more sporadically. And

37:26

then I do things on Twitch, I'm

37:26

still coming up with my schedule

37:29

because of pandemic blurs days.

37:29

But I do live draw on that. And

37:36

then it's a chat availability, I

37:36

also make myself available to my

37:39

patrons in order to make

37:39

commission pieces for them. And

37:43

whether they want a video of the

37:43

live drawing as it happens,

37:46

because there's something about

37:46

getting that cartoon, which is

37:49

fun. And there's also something

37:49

magic about seeing it emerge

37:52

from the tip of a pen. Which is

37:52

even different than digital, I

37:56

think, I think. So that's what

37:56

I've been doing. Um, when I have

38:05

the fortune to be able to GM or

38:05

play at charity streams or

38:09

streams that are live, or other

38:09

events, I usually put that out

38:13

on my Twitter, and on Patreon so

38:13

that people, people know where

38:17

to find me. I tend to lay crazy

38:17

characters, which I enjoy. I

38:23

look for melodrama, drama and

38:23

meaningfulness when I

38:27

thank you I

38:27

will put links to all of that in

38:29

the description below, including

38:29

truth or truth. So make sure you

38:35

go and purchase that for your

38:35

Tavern games for your tabletop

38:39

group. I'm sure it's adaptable

38:39

for any but yeah, definitely

38:44

going back the art links in the

38:44

description below this podcast

38:46

pen, it has been an absolute

38:46

pleasure learning more about

38:49

yourself, your art, your

38:49

creative processes, and your

38:54

obsession, session obsession,

38:57

my obsession, my

38:57

obsession with sharing smiles,

39:01

acknowledging incredible

39:01

creative players, gems and

39:06

content creators. And heroes

39:06

like you,

39:09

you being in the audience don't mean

39:11

hey, you know,

39:11

it's all good. I would love to

39:17

be at more tables. I'd love to

39:17

introduce more people to my

39:20

worlds and my madness. That's

39:20

what I used to say with writing

39:23

books. I said the madness exists

39:23

in my head until you read it.

39:27

And now it exists in your head.

39:30

viral. That's

39:30

it. So I'd love to get you back

39:34

on the show and maybe in the

39:34

future invite you to join us for

39:37

a one shot or something like

39:37

that. I love it. I'm very much

39:40

looking forward to it. And thank

39:40

you for having me here. It's a

39:43

pleasure, Penn. Thank you. Thank

39:43

you. Thank you for listening. If

39:47

you'd like to learn more about

39:47

the show, then go to WWW dot

39:49

Snyder's return.squarespace.com

39:49

Alternatively, you can find us

39:54

over on Twitter. At Return

39:54

Snyder. You have a link tree

39:57

link in the description of this

39:57

episode. And if you want to

40:01

support us, come and join us

40:01

over on Patreon and we also have

40:04

a Discord server. Please leave

40:04

us a review because we'd love to

40:07

learn how to improve the channel

40:07

and provide better content out

40:11

for for those who are listening

40:11

until we until we speak again.

40:16

Thank you