Dr. Jones has a conversation around trauma therapy with Dr. Guy Macpherson and Therapist/Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Gray Manis

Notes:

Gray (Isaac) Manis, MSW, is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Certified Alcohol and Drug Counselor, Assistant Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Kentucky, and adjunct instructor in the UK College of Social Work

Guy Macpherson, PhD, is a husband, a father of two, and holds a doctorate in clinical psychology. He has spent the last several years studying the impact and treatment of trauma, and early psychosis.  

In 2014, Guy founded The Trauma Therapist Project with the goals of raising the awareness of trauma and creating an educational and supportive community for new trauma workers. 

 The Trauma Therapist Project has now grown to include The Trauma Therapist | Podcast, now being listened to in more than 160 countries around the world, as well as Trauma Therapist | 2.0, an online membership community specifically dedicated to educating and inspiring trauma workers just starting out on their trauma-informed journey.  

Guy’s focus currently is on creating a vibrant, global community to support, educate and inspire new trauma workers, as well as to upend the present way that trauma is taught at the graduate level. 

Middle music Landras Dream by Jason Shaw used under a creative commons Attribution 3.0 license

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcripts are created using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcription and may contain errors. Please check the full audio podcast in context before quoting in print.

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Blake: 00:01 Well today I’m joined by Dr. Guy Mcpherson who has a wonderful podcast. This is the first time I’ve interviewed a fellow podcast or I’m really excited about that, but it’s really more than a podcast. It’s a, it’s an entire project that he’s working on, um, around trauma and dealing with trauma, helping therapists learn about trauma and a guy, we’re so glad to have you on the podcast this morning. Thanks for calling in.

Guy: 00:30 Thanks Blake. Um, no pressure being interviewed by another podcast.

Blake: 00:35 I w I was just listening to yours on the drive in the, your most recent one with uh, Nate Pendleton, I think is his name and a wonderful, wonderful podcast. I’m only about halfway through, so I’m excited to finish our interview and then go back and listen to it. But I’m also joined by Gray Manis, who is a therapist here at the university of Kentucky in our psychiatry department. Great. Thanks for coming in.

Gray: 01:00 Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Blake: 01:02 Yeah. And so gray is kind of my backup on the, on the clinical stuff because you really do a lot of trauma therapy. And I asked you to come in to help me kinda co interview guy. But guy, I wanna start out by asking you, this is such a unique thing that you do in the world. Uh, it’s very focused on trauma and helping those of us who work with people who have had trauma or enduring trauma. Where did all this come from for you?

Guy: 01:32 Well, that uh, that’s a multilayered question, but, um, the one hand, you know, when I got to graduate school I knew I wanted to focus on trauma. I wanted to, uh, help people who were in dire situations and kind of where that came from is we can get into. But when I got into graduate school, I once learned about trauma. So I was like, you know, what book do I need to read? What workshop do I need to go to? I wanted to absorb everything I could and thinking that that kind of ended up itself would, would make me the best trauma therapist I could become. And you know, I started learning more and started studying more. And, um, I got a, my first position out of graduate school was in an amazing clinic here in Northern California where we assessed and treated kids who are showing early signs of psychosis.

Guy: 02:35 So, you know, not surprisingly there’s, or maybe surprisingly for S for some people out there, there’s a huge amount of trauma, uh, there. And as part of this job we had to do these phone referral calls. So not only were we, you know, assessing and treating kids, but like once or twice a week, we’re on the phone taking calls from parents and teachers and therapists about these kids, you know, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, um, who most often we’re kind of, you know, acting out in school or they’re, we’re isolating and people are that there was a change in behavior. A lot of the therapists or parents or teachers, you know, didn’t know where this behavior was coming from. And what was really interesting, Blake, as you go through this, um, kind of a, a list of questions, but you had to really be detective and, and respectfully find out what’s going on.

Guy: 03:37 And 99.9% of the time there was trauma. But what happened? Uh, what happens is that a lot of times parents and sometimes therapists and teachers did don’t recognize it as trauma, you know, um, maybe emotional trauma or verbal abuse or witnessing abuse. But these, oftentimes these kids had been really impacted by this. And it got to the point where I was like, what the heck is going on here? It was, it was crazy. And a lot of times it was abuse and just parents didn’t realize, um, were therapists didn’t even know what was going on. So I was like, something’s gotta be done now. Simultaneously, I had been doing a lot of commuting and it was also listening to a lot of podcasts, um, about entrepreneurs who are just doing amazing things with their lives. And I always thought to myself, you know, as I was driving, thinking about my own clients, thinking, I don’t know what I’m doing, what’s going wrong, why aren’t they listening to me? And so I thought to myself, wouldn’t be awesome if I had a kind of a, uh, what I thought would be a master traumas therapist sitting right there beside me who could coach me. And then it, things just kinda clicked. And I said, well, what if I did my own podcast and brought, you know, seasoned therapists on to help other people like myself? And that was pretty much the Genesis of it.

Blake: 05:04 [inaudible] I think that’s so important to mention that you, you really do more than a podcast. I mean, your pot, you’re up to about 350 episodes now, I believe, but, but you have a whole host of supports for therapists who are doing this work. Can you, can you talk about a little bit about the other things that you do to support?

Guy: 05:25 Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, well, you know, my, my main love or kind of, uh, I’m pulled towards helping people who are just starting out and what I’ve done is created a community called trauma therapist 2.0 to really help support, educate and inspire, uh, newer clinicians, whether they be psychologists or social workers or counselors or whomever, but people who want to learn about, uh, you, what’s involved with working with people who’ve been impacted by trauma. So what I do is I have a crude and I’ve created an online community where people can come. It’s a private Facebook group, uh, you know, share what’s going on with them, how they’re working through things or not working through things, how they’re struggling or not struggling. And on the clinical side of it, I bring in, um, a lot of people from the podcast and we do video interviews kind of like this. And as I asked them to break down specifically how they work with their clients, which is much different on the podcast. And so there’s, I provide this kind of, this clinical educational component from a wide variety of people who are specialists in, in trauma.

Gray: 06:42 Yeah, I just, I think that’s really important because I know for myself, I did not unlike you, I did not, uh, become a therapist, uh, interested in trauma. I primarily was interested in addiction. And then that 10 years into it and I started working at this outpatient clinic and all these people were coming in with trauma and I was like, what am I supposed to do with these folks? And I talked to a colleague of mine and, uh, she said, well, you should get trained in EMDR. So I did that and it was, it, it totally impacted my practice. I mean, it changed the way I practice, but, uh, then I actually had some training in how to, you know, treat people with trauma, um, and, uh, continued to be more and more interested in it and ended up, you know, ended up doing something that I didn’t expect myself to do and enjoy doing. Um, but I’m guessing that a lot of these folks that you’re talking about, um, are possibly in a similar situation where they are working with all these folks with trauma and they, they need these resources that you’re talking about.

Guy: 07:49 Exactly. Yeah. I mean, that’s a really good point. Um, and a lot of people, uh, in a lot of people on the podcast, they say just that they didn’t realize that, uh, how prevalent trauma is. The other component to it is that, I mean, trauma is just horrific. I mean, and it’s awful and people, therapists, a lot of times don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to open up that Pandora’s box because why, of what it brings up in us, you know, and that’s a big part of really my mission is focusing on, you know, you one as the therapist and what’s required for them to do this work. Because oftentimes I think a lot of people don’t sign up for this necessarily, but it requires a real self exploration and not just a raising of several self-awareness, but it requires, in order to work with people who have been impacted by trauma, you have to do your own work.

Guy: 08:59 You know, I was alluding to kind of a backstory for my, my own story, I, the Genesis of my own work, but that was when I was really young. I got bullied and it happened to me at such a pivotal point in my life that really impacted the trajectory of my self esteem, my self belief, my self worth, how I showed up in relationships and so forth. And I didn’t really, I certainly didn’t realize that the, the, the profundity in graduate school, I knew it was there, but I didn’t realize it was only until I started doing these interviews and over and over and over again asking a therapist about kind of early critical errors or mistakes and so forth and how, uh, you know, it wasn’t so much an intervention that had gone awry or the fact that they, um, you know, forgot what Bessel VanDerKolk has out on page two 22 of his book, but rather a situation where they weren’t able to show up, um, vulnerably or with authenticity that really oftentimes ruptured the relationship and so forth. So

Blake: 10:17 I want to stay there for a second guy. Um, I think what you’re talking about is, is so important for us to unpack a little bit here. I know that I, I mentioned to you earlier that I work with lots of police officers and first responders in my clinical practice. And so I’ve been thinking lately about just my level of training to respond to trauma and, and how I need to up my game a little bit or maybe a lot in terms of trauma because they’re, they’re full of trauma, this cumulative trauma that they see. And I think a lot of clinicians get hung up on the overwhelming amount of therapies that are out there. EMDR and CRA, you know, cognitive processing therapy and just on and on and on. And I, I like where you come from and that you really talk about the type of person that does well in doing trauma therapy. And then it feels, it almost feels like the modalities are a little bit ancillary there. I don’t know if I’m reading you right on that, but talk about the kind of person that makes a good trauma therapy.

Guy: 11:27 Well, yeah, I mean I think you’re hitting, you’re hitting the nail on the head. And I would kind of say that rather than that type of person, it’s almost as like the willingness of the individual to, um, you know, we often talk in, in therapy, right? We often talk about meeting the client where they’re at. Well, that involves, it’s not just the client, it’s the therapist and how to what degree, uh, is one willing to show up as themselves in that relationship. Again, I’m not seeing disregarding a clinical knowledge or to disregard boundaries and ethics and all that stuff. Um, but it requires, you know, trauma as, you know, oftentimes when, and especially when we’re talking about interpersonal trauma or complex trauma, we’re, you know, people have been abused over the course of, of, of years sometimes, oftentimes, uh, and even PTSD. When people get in car accidents who, or, or combat veterans, et cetera, oftentimes there’s a sense of safety just ripped from them.

Guy: 12:36 Personal safety, personal worth, uh, their place in the world. Their, their, uh, spiritual, uh, moorings in sense of grounding has been ripped out from beneath them, uh, such that when someone comes into your office, if they even get there, oftentimes, you know, they need connection. They need, um, a relationship, a healing relationship. And that’s not a therapist leading with a manualized intervention. Right? Right. Um, there’s a saying that, no, uh, you know, complex trauma or interpersonal trauma happened because of a relationship, oftentimes a very dysfunctional relationship and what is needed to heal that in turn is almost an antithetical type of relationship. And again, that is not only inviting the therapist or the coach, whoever’s working in that context to, to, to meet that particular client, but is demanding that they do that with a certain amount with it, with a, with, uh, a willingness and open heart and a vulnerability, a compassion and authenticity. Now, the other layer here, Blake, is that that’s going to be different for each therapist, right? I’m going to show up authentically, maybe a little differently, differently than you are, but that in order to get there, that’s going to require, you know, a therapist to do their own inner work, their own exploration of their own traumas, their little traumas, big T traumas and so forth. And a lot of times that can be very daunting if not downright scary for people.

Gray: 14:22 Yeah. I, yeah, I’d like to speak to that just for a moment. Just, um, from, um, uh, Richard Swartz, uh, internal family systems model. He, he talks a lot about, um, as a therapist that we need to have self-energy, that and that we all have. It’s really kind of a spiritual thing, but that we all have this, uh, this healing energy within us. Um, but we also have, uh, wounds and protective parts that, uh, can get activated by our, our clients, you know, and so it’s really important as therapists, and this is just looking at it from this model’s perspective, but for us to, as you said, guy, to be able to do our own work, to be aware that we have, uh, our own wounds, uh, that we can work on ourselves or in therapy with someone else so that when we’re there with our clients, we can have self energy and, and have compassion and clarity and courage and, uh, you know, be calm and, and have those qualities that are necessary to be able to do whatever kind of, um, therapy you’re actually going to do.

Gray: 15:34 I will say, I th I think that has to be in place. It’s kind of like, uh, what Salvador Minutian talked about when he talked about you, you know, you have to be able to join with your client if you’re not joined, you can’t really do anything. Same thing kind of as a therapeutic Alliance I guess. But having said that, um, I was finding anyway before I knew really what to do, just just having, um, compassionate and unconditional positive regard was only going to get me so far because just listening to people talk about their trauma doesn’t, you know, exactly help them with the trauma. In fact, it can actually be traumatizing for them just to talk about it over and over again. So that’s kind of my,

Guy: 16:19 yeah, I mean, I think that’s well said. And also, I, you know, I think, you know, what I’m talking about here is not just isolating the different facets of, um, uh, the, the approach here, you know, again, it’s not, I’m not suggesting one has to do away with their clinical knowledge, not at all. But this other aspect that often gets overlooked has to be brought into the situation. You know, as Charles Figley said, if you’re working with people who’ve been impacted by trauma, if you’re working in that field, you will get triggered. Yes. And it’s incumbent upon you to do that work. So as a, someone else said, you know, if you find yourself working on your own stuff while you’re in the room with the client, you’re in the wrong room. Right. Exactly. It’s impossible, right.

Gray: 17:10 To get activated sometimes. Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Blake: 17:14 Right. I’ve heard more than one horror story from a client who, who said, you know, that last therapist I went to couldn’t stop crying the whole time that I was there. It’s like I’m never going back to see them again, you know? Um, yeah. So guy, we have a lot of students who listen to this podcast and you know, if, if a students out there that’s saying, you know, well this sounds really interesting, or they’ve listened to your podcast or looked at your, your website, um, what advice do you give to students or even beginning therapists? You know, I mean, we’ve talked a little bit about this already about self care and that sort of thing, but what would you say to a student who is interested in working in the trauma field as a, as a professional goal?

Guy: 18:04 Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a really good question. And you know, what I would say is to find, I mean, there’s so many modalities out there and I think it’s very easy to be lured into, you know, maybe w ones that are popular, but what has been said, um, on my podcast from people who have much more experience than I do is that too, and I think my podcast actually would be a good way to hear a lot of people who specialize in a lot of different types of, uh, theories and modalities. Find one that resonates with you, you know, whether it’s a somatic intervention, whether it is EMDR, um, whether it is ifs, working with parts and so forth, find one that resonates with you and pursue that because the fact that something resonates with you will help you, uh, utilize that. It’ll, it’ll feel more genuine as opposed to something that maybe you feel as is popular but doesn’t so much resonate with you.

Guy: 19:06 You know, and like you guys said, getting that, uh, uh, knowledge, not just enough to have that compassion and vulnerability and not know what the heck to do when you know, a client is being triggered, uh, in your office. I mean, you have to have those, those, those tools. Um, but it’s, it’s a process, you know, it takes time. And I think oftentimes, or a lot of times people who want to get up to share a story with you. You know, when I was in my, one of my internships, I remember we, I was, it was early morning and I was in the, um, office with a bunch of interns and I think there were five or six of us and we were just getting ready for the day. And, um, at this time I ha I was going through a sensory motor psychotherapy training, which is a somatic, uh, based training.

Guy: 20:02 So I had some very little butts, but some training and trauma. And I remember there was a knock on the door and it was our supervisor and she said, all right guys, um, later on this afternoon, we have a new, a client coming in and he’s got a really serious, extensive trauma background. He’s been in incarcerated for much of his life, just abuse at a young age who can take this client. And it was like dead silence in the room and you could feel it. You could feel, I could feel that despite the fact that everyone there wanted to help this client, a lot of people was like, this was way too much. Um, and I like, I raised my hand terrified. I raised my head and, and I, and I ended up taking this client and learning when it was way out of my pay grade in a sense, but learning so much, um, you know, it.

Guy: 21:08 So when I’m [inaudible] my point in sharing that is people who were doing this job, people who are listening to this podcast, and then the amazing therapists who want to help other people to do that with people who’ve been impacted by trauma. It, it’s your responsibility to get trained in how to do that specifically. It is a specialization. Unfortunately, there are lots of different ways to work. Um, you know, I think it was Bessel VanDerKolk who said, if you’re working with people who’ve been impacted by trauma, it’s your responsibility not to be an expert in everything, but you’ve got to get to a point where your familiar with a lot of different things because things are going to be coming at you and you know, the more you know, the more you be able to better you’ll be able to interact, the, be able, the better, uh, more proficient. You’ll be able to walk through that, that particular door.

Gray: 22:16 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, um, it’s best if we can, I mean, offer a menu of different options, um, depending on what that particular client needs. The challenge in that is being able, and I think with a lot of therapists as being able to get the training, a lot of these trainings are expensive. Um, and especially with, uh, you know, depending on if you’re working in community mental health, uh, you may not have the money to, to do that. I think that’s a major challenge. Um, I know, uh, you’re talking about [inaudible]. I mean he’s talking about, you know, EMDR and ifs and I think neurofeedback and, uh, Peter Levine’s somatic, uh, stuff. Um, I’d love to be able to do all that. Right. But

Guy: 23:01 no, let me, let me, let me interject here if I, I’m not suggesting that people have to do that. Everything. Um, you know, Bessel van cog said that to me and that made a lot of sense and that’s what he said, but, and nor was he saying that people have to go out and learn everything right away. Right. But you know, the, on the other side of the coin, there been a lot of people I’ve interviewed who have said, you know, with a, with a foundation of knowledge and you know, of how trauma impacts getting a foundation of how trauma impacts the brain and the body will get you very far. We’ll get you very far. Will is, is a lot more than a lot of people who don’t have any kind of knowledge and trauma. Um, but having that, and B, having done your own work as a therapist, your own trauma work as a therapist, learning how to manage your own triggers and the things that come up with you in session is gonna get you a long way.

Blake: 24:05 Yes. Okay. I want to ask you about the, the idea of resilience. I’ve, I’ve thought a lot about this and of course we talk a lot about this and the strengths perspective in social work in particular. And um, I’m thinking of a recent client that I had, um, saw her this week and you know, she just has a litany of abuse and domestic violence and you know, uh, kids that have been in trouble and suicidal and on and on and on throughout her life. However, she gets up every day and goes to a job and has been able to hold a job. She, uh, has her own place. She has a number of things that she’s good at. And this is one of the things I point out to her when, you know, and when she starts opening up all the trauma that has happened to her. What role do you think resilience plays in healing?

Guy: 25:03 I mean, I, I it’s unquestionably huge. I mean it’s, it’s foundational. It’s, you know, what you said there is key. You said she, there’s a lot of things in place and that makes all the difference. You know, it sounds like she came from a situation where, you know, things that made her feel good were fostered. She was put in a position where she could Excel. She was, um, uh, around people who understood the value of, uh, making people feel worthwhile. All the, all those things are not a given for a lot of people who suffer trauma. And what happens is when people do experience trauma and they don’t have those kinds of seeds, uh, a resiliency in place, they have to play catch up and it becomes very, very difficult. Uh, but, but not impossible.

Blake: 26:06 Yeah. Let me kind of clarify. Let me clarify with her. She actually was told fro, you know, she has a history of sexual abuse, became pregnant very early on and was told by everybody in her life that she would never amount to anything and that fueled her to go on and get a college degree and, um, a job and so forth. She still struggles with a lot of depression and, and you know, just, just, um, the after effects of all the trauma that she’s been through from very early on. But you know, what she told me was that when somebody, you know, somebody told her, you’ll never amount to anything, look at who you, you know, you’ve been abused, you’ve had all these things done to you that fueled her to go on to college and she was a straight a student. Then I just find that fascinating that, that something inside her, um, said, well, you know, you’re not going to write my story for me. I’m going to write my own despite all this stuff she struggles with.

Guy: 27:11 I mean, that’s amazing. That’s really super inspiring. You know, it’s, I think it’s easy to say. I mean, part of me wants is really curious about that. That young woman was there. Where did she get that from? [inaudible] was there an entirety? Pete, where do people find these things? You know, oftentimes we hear situations like that and [inaudible], you know, our mind wants to go, my mind wants to go. Maybe there was someone that that really inspired her. Maybe there wasn’t. I mean, I don’t know, you know, but what we do know is that oftentimes when people don’t have, when they don’t come from, um, uh, supportive environments, they’re more likely to, uh, you know, suffer, right? They’re more likely not to be able to bounce back. Um, so there definitely are outliers and, uh, and so forth. But that, that’s, that’s an awesome story. Yeah. But look at the, look at the people who, I mean, my God with, um, the Parkland shootings, you know, these two kids, suicide and then suicide, right?

Guy: 28:18 Three days later, um, the, correct me if I’m wrong, but, um, the, the, the first girl we heard about who was into yoga and so forth, I was reading a story where, you know, she suffered a lot of survivors guilt and, um, wasn’t seeking help. You know, it, a lot of this points to stigma, you know, a lot of it points to what is trauma, what is traumatic. You know, before we were recording you were talking about, uh, police officers and, uh, you know, I, it’s, this is such a, an important issue in our culture is, is kind of eradicating and chipping, chipping away at the stigma. I think a lot of it, a lot of it’s happening, uh, slowly with, with veterans who are returning. There are a host of organizations and individuals out there, but it’s still such a, uh, uh, something that needs to be examined much more closely. Yeah. Do you find too that, uh, a lot of clients you work with, um, don’t consider what they’ve been through traumatic at all? In fact, they will. They will tell you I had a good childhood. Um, I’ll be working, I’ll be doing an evaluation and then they will go on to tell you about how um, there was a lot of conflict in the home. Uh, their parents argued a lot or, and ended up in a divorce. So they have these adverse childhood experiences that they don’t consider adverse childhood experiences and say they don’t have any trauma when clearly, and maybe maybe you it’s developmental or little T trauma but still trauma. I just wondered what your experiences with that

Guy: 30:04 exactly. Yeah. I mean that happens a lot when when I was seeing clients and when I was working in that clinic I was talking about, you know, when people hear the word trauma, oftentimes they think of PTSD and being combat vet, they don’t think of a times, you know, bullying, get over it. You know, the important thing is here is each individual is going to experience something or may experience something in a different way. It’s not so much what was experienced, but how that person experienced it. Was it traumatic to them? Uh, number one. Number two, what you just said makes a lot of sense. People don’t think that, um, you know, being witness to arguments or domestic violence or even being in a different room when arguing with their parents is going on, can be traumatic. All those things can be, not necessarily are, but they can be traumatic.

Guy: 31:03 And that oftentimes is a big wake up call for a lot of people who get into a therapy office. And just as you said, you know, my, my, uh, childhood was fine. You will, what was your really, what was your parents relationship with? Like, Oh, you know, they fought, well, what did they do? Oh, you know, it’s just usual stuff, right? You know, dad slap mom around some time and that’s usual. That’s normal. That’s their baseline. Right? And, and providing that kind of psychoeducation for, uh, individuals is, is, is, is crucial, but, but that, that seems so easy and simple, but it happens again and again and again. And it was something that was happening when I was talking about those referral calls that we were doing as part of our job. That was it. People didn’t understand, uh, that the traumas on a continuum, you know, it’s not just PTSD or being raped or sexually abused, which is, you know, you might say is way over here on the continuum, but it can be other kind of, you know, quote unquote micro traumas or small T traumas that do add up.

Gray: 32:13 They, they do. And you know, one thing I’ve found too is that it’s, sometimes it’s a lot easier to help someone with a single incident than it is, say, someone who grew up in a home where they were, uh, chronically invalidated by their, I mean, they just weren’t validated by their parents. I mean, that can be a lot more difficult to treat than a single incident thing.

Guy: 32:34 Right. And [inaudible] too. It depends whether that single incident, I mean, whether it’s an interpersonal trauma or it’s a, you know, a car crash or something like that too. Interpersonal traumas can be just a really challenging trying.

Blake: 32:50 Yeah. A lot of the police that I work with, they tell me, you know, I don’t know why I’m here. I’ve never had to shoot somebody I’ve never been shot at. You know, and then I start talking with them and they, you know, the things about, well, I’ve worked a suicide though today, or somebody spit on me and that’s not a traumatic thing, you know, but it’s just this sort of, uh, you know, a thousand bee stings kind of a thing that has happened to them over time. And it was just one thing. It was just the person spitting on them that tilted them over into, um, all of that, all those little T traumas just sort of coming out in a very negative way.

Guy: 33:31 Right. And, and along with this, I think oftentimes, uh, I think that can help is providing people with the understanding of how, um, you know, the neurobiology behind trauma and how it just doesn’t, uh, impact the brain, but how it impacts the body and is stored in the body. And if you’re talking about Peter Levine’s somatic experiencing or pet Ogden sensory motor psychotherapy, that’s, you know, they really brought that to, uh, uh, education and an, an understanding. And that’s really important for people to understand. And a lot of times, you know, whether, uh, it’s a, it’s a fireman or a policeman that can be, that can be, I think, very helpful, but they’re still working through that, that trauma. I mean, just when you said, you know, someone’s spit on me that that’s not a true trauma. Well, you know, if you look back into that person’s history, you know, how does that person interpret that?

Guy: 34:32 Was that something, you know, you can go on and on? Was that something their father did or mother did or blah, blah, blah, blah. I’ll tell you, share a story. You know, when I was, um, for seeing clients in, in graduate school and I was, I was, I would see kids who had been bullied. I, it, I could feel it and I didn’t, I became a strong advocate and I didn’t realize how that was impacting [inaudible] the workout, how it was kind of driving the work I was doing in tr. In short, I was almost really doing it for myself in a way. Right. And that’s an example of the degree to which you’ve really not only be aware of your own past and history and stories and, but, but your own traumas and the degree to which you have to kind of work through them in a sense. So that doesn’t happen.

Blake: 35:36 Well, I want to thank you for, for coming on today. This, this time has just flown by. What a wonderful conversation and I’m so thankful for you and for the work that you’re doing in this area. Um, how do people find their way to you? What are the different, uh, I know you have a website, you have this con community. Tell us how people can find you.

Guy: 35:58 Yeah, it just be a, the traumatherapistproject.com. Um, and everything’s there. The podcast is there. Uh, my community trauma therapist 2.0 was there as well. Um, and that’s it.

Blake: 36:10 Great. Well, thank you so much in gray. Thank you for coming over and I appreciate it so much guy. Thanks. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate you.

Guy: 36:19 It was a privileged, I really appreciate it. Thanks Blake and great talking to you.