0:19

Hello,

0:19

and welcome to another edition of Sony

0:21

projector on songwriting. I'm Brian

0:23

here with Simon And joining us for episode

0:25

two hundred and thirty nine is an American singer,

0:27

songwriter, and guitarist, best known

0:29

as founder member and frontman of revered

0:32

Grammy nominated the US indie rockers death

0:34

cap for cutie. The band recently

0:36

graced us with their marvelous tenth studio

0:38

album that John Congleton produced asphalt

0:41

Meadows and we recently spoke to their principal

0:43

songwriter all about the new record and how

0:45

he goes about his work. We are very happy

0:47

to welcome the excellent Ben Gibaud

0:49

to the show. Ben was born in Brematon,

0:52

Washington, not too far from Seattle in nineteen

0:54

seventy six. His dad was in the navy,

0:56

so the family moved around a lot during his childhood

0:58

but there was always an acoustic guitar lying around the

1:01

house, which his dad would occasionally pick up, but

1:03

which Ben found himself irresistibly drawn.

1:05

He took piano lessons from the age of nine until

1:07

it was around fourteen, which his parents insisted

1:10

he did before he could have what he really wanted

1:12

electric guitar lessons. In the meantime,

1:14

he told him self rudimentary chords from a

1:16

Beatles songbook, and then having fulfilled

1:18

his side of the bargain began lessons with

1:21

a neighborhood guitar tutor He started

1:23

writing songs around twelve or thirteen and

1:25

around the same period began playing in bands,

1:27

initially using a borrowed left handed guitar

1:29

he had to turn upside down. I believe

1:31

his fair spanned was called Oddfellow's local

1:34

inspired by an REM song. That's

1:36

right. Oddfellow's local 151I

1:38

think it is. Yep. Upon graduating

1:40

from high school in nineteen ninety four, Ben

1:42

moved to Bellingham to attend Western Washington

1:44

University where he studied environmental

1:46

chemistry and played an event called pinwheel.

1:49

He was also doing some recording under the alias

1:51

all time quarterback. With its Monica

1:53

taken from the Banco dual band song of the

1:55

same name, Death Cap for QC originally

1:57

started life in nineteen ninety seven as a solo

1:59

project. While

2:00

at university, better met musician and producer

2:03

Chris Waller, who owned an eight track on which the pair

2:05

recorded the cassette album, You can play

2:07

these songs with chords, which became

2:09

the first Death Cap release and created

2:11

quite the local bus. Death Cap was

2:13

soon banded into a full band, including

2:15

wallet and guitar and keyboards and bassist

2:18

Nick Hammer who remains with the line up to

2:20

this day. The first official album as

2:22

a collective something about airplanes was

2:24

released via Seattle, India labelled bus in

2:26

nineteen ninety eight, as with the next few

2:28

records, including their two thousand and three breakthrough

2:30

transatlanticism, before they signed with

2:32

Atlantic in two thousand and four. Their

2:35

major label debut plans went platinum

2:37

and reached the Billboard Top ten and follow-up

2:39

to narrow stairs did even better and took the number

2:41

one spot. Other fireworks include

2:43

twenty eleven's codes and keys, twenty

2:45

fifteen's Kintsugi, which was Chris Wallace

2:47

Swanson with the band. and twenty eighteen's,

2:49

thank you for today. Ben's also

2:51

known for his early Nordities side project

2:53

with Jimmy Tambarello, the electronic giro

2:56

with the postal service, which yielded the well

2:58

received two thousand and three LP give

3:00

up, now something of a cult classic.

3:02

His solar works include twenty twelve's former

3:05

lives and twenty seventeen's band wagon

3:07

esque, a full length reworking of the teenage

3:09

fan club album of the same nave, Ben

3:11

is a big teenage fan club fan.

3:13

Well, you'd have to be wooden yet to take on a project like

3:16

that. Earlier this year, Ben

3:18

also paid homage to Yoko Ono

3:20

by curating the album, Ocean Child,

3:22

which features redemptions of Yoko's solo

3:24

work from the likes of David Yola

3:26

Tango, the flaming lips, and of course,

3:28

Death Cap for Quty. If you're new to the show

3:31

and you like what you hear, give us a follow on your

3:33

favorite podcast provider and go another good

3:35

old rummage through our back catalog of hundreds

3:37

of interviews with quality songwriters like

3:39

Ben. You can also find us on

3:41

Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter under

3:43

sodajica. We're not on master done

3:45

yet, but who knows what the future holds? This

3:48

is a fully independent ad free show.

3:50

So if you'd like to donate whatever you can spread towards,

3:52

it's running costs, you can do so at sodajacket

3:55

dot com slash donate. Just before

3:57

we hear from Ben, we'd like to thank Harriets for

3:59

hair help setting

3:59

up the chat. Okay. Please enjoy

4:02

this lovely conversation with DeCap Securities

4:04

Bengibut. We

4:07

are away

4:08

from white wine. Believe

4:10

the city is sleeping. I

4:13

saw trade knows closing.

4:16

I felt your son won't even.

4:20

Here at me, I on metal.

4:23

There's only one thing that

4:25

grows. Finding the

4:27

light through a concrete, get

4:30

tram forward under Odyssey.

4:33

Hi, Ben. How are you?

4:36

I'm good. I just kinda get my day going

4:38

here. So where about

4:40

to see you today? I'm at home in Seattle.

4:42

Right. Lovely. Yeah. So

4:45

we've had that spoken Mendoza's for a while, actually

4:47

now really enjoyed listening to it. It's

4:49

an appealingly paradoxical title,

4:51

isn't it? Yeah. I kind

4:54

of stumbled across that little

4:56

word connection. Like, I really

4:58

like the imagery that it gave

5:00

me in my mind's eye just in the sense

5:02

that, you know, we're living in urban environments that

5:05

were once wild. I found it

5:07

interesting how we now look at cities as

5:09

Oh my god. It's so beautiful. I kind

5:11

of really was fond of those words

5:13

kind of existing next to each other. Yeah.

5:15

And not the first time you've used the word asphalt,

5:17

I don't think, either. I have a relationship

5:19

with Concrete. I

5:22

think it's probably all the beats I read

5:24

back in college and the

5:26

open road and the the

5:28

expansiveness of the

5:30

American Highway system has always been incredibly

5:33

inspiring to me. Yeah. I think

5:35

that way it turns up on a think it's

5:37

the district sleeps alone tonight on the

5:39

postal service record. Yeah. I'm

5:41

staring at the asphalt, wondering what's buried underneath.

5:43

Yeah. That's the one. Yeah. Yeah. I kind

5:45

of stick to a series of subjects in

5:47

my writing, but I tend to kind of live

5:49

in in those worlds because I find them

5:51

utterly fascinating and a

5:53

cancer source of inspiration. We

5:55

do find that some writers sometimes have

5:57

preoccupations with things. I think we

5:59

said to Neil Finn that he mentioned planets

6:01

and seasons a lot in his songs.

6:04

And I don't think he was cognizant

6:06

of his accent. Yeah. Yeah. I think

6:08

the hardest thing to do is a songwriter as

6:11

you know,

6:11

you move into your second or even

6:13

third decade or fourth decade, I

6:15

guess, in in Neil's case, is

6:17

to continue to use the language

6:20

that is signature to how you

6:22

communicate while also trying to find new

6:24

ways to kind of bend the

6:26

words to fit your

6:28

life in its current context.

6:30

And

6:31

I do find that there is a kind of

6:34

a basket of words that I tend to go

6:36

back too often and I think with

6:38

this record in particular, I was trying

6:40

my best to stay away from

6:41

a number of them and and to try to stay

6:43

away from

6:44

certain

6:45

scenarios for songs that I

6:47

had utilized quite often. I mean, with

6:49

with varying results, of course. I mean, I

6:51

think that there's love and

6:53

loss and death and the alienation

6:56

of the modern world has always been

6:58

subjects that I come back to and and those

7:00

subjects tend to require a

7:02

certain language. But Yeah. It is interesting

7:04

when I kind of if I were to word jumble, all of the

7:06

songs I've ever written, I'm sure there'd be a number of words

7:08

that popped up quite often.

7:09

And the the current single, as we're

7:12

recording, this is here to forever.

7:14

I love the first couple of races. So

7:16

that one, in particular, about the

7:18

stuff about the dead that there's and the

7:20

idea of of falling in love

7:22

with bones and ashes, it very much appeals

7:24

to my morbid streak. I

7:27

do find myself falling in love with,

7:29

you

7:30

know, fifties, French, and Italian new wave

7:32

film stars all the time. And those

7:34

seem to be certainly as a married man fairly

7:36

safe crushes, you know. My

7:39

wife and I will always talk about kind of jokingly

7:41

about what our passes would be in our marriage.

7:43

And and I'm like, well, Monica Vidi

7:45

is dead now. So I I don't think that I

7:47

don't I don't think she's a threat to our relationship.

7:50

But I think I tend to gravitate

7:52

towards falling in love with those kind of characters

7:55

or people from a bygone era because it's

7:57

easy to idealize and kind of

7:59

project upon, which I think in some ways are

8:01

the best way to have crushes on

8:03

people or whatever. You know, it's like the people that

8:05

are completely unattainable and you're able to kind of

8:07

daydream about what life would have been like

8:09

in that era or or where have you.

8:11

And you do something really interesting in the chorus in

8:13

that one when you just add or whatever.

8:16

To

8:16

that line, I wanna feel the pressure of God

8:18

or whatever. thought that was

8:21

really nice kind of conversational thing

8:23

to throw in there.

8:24

Thank you. I'm I'm rather fond of that

8:27

lyric as well. because when

8:29

we evoke deities in our culture,

8:31

we tend to evoke them through the lens

8:33

of our particular religious persuasion.

8:36

So if you're Christian, you're

8:38

speaking about Jesus Christ, if you're you're a Muslim

8:40

and you're talking about Allah, I'd

8:42

rather like the idea

8:44

of to border on the blast furnace to

8:46

kind of remove the power from God

8:48

or the concept of God. It's like, yeah,

8:50

just it's God or whatever, or

8:52

or it's astrology or whatever. I mean, just

8:54

any kind of belief system that

8:57

you place so much emphasis and

8:59

importance and then obviously you

9:01

know, major organized religions being

9:03

some of the most, you know,

9:05

well known and popular

9:08

versions of God. but I really like the

9:10

idea of God just being it's like,

9:12

yeah, a God or, I don't know, or

9:14

the smoke monster or whatever.

9:16

Anything that can give me a any kind of

9:18

clarity on what, you know, what exists

9:20

past this mortal coil. If

9:22

anybody or anything, whatever can give me, they

9:24

kind of focus, I'll take it. It doesn't have to fall

9:26

under the the dogma that I grew up in is a

9:28

Catholic who learned.

9:51

There's no

9:59

And

10:04

this was actually the last song written for the album.

10:07

I believe It

10:08

was. Yeah. So we were

10:10

planning a go in studio of John Congleton who

10:12

produced the record and we were in the

10:14

final weeks of you

10:16

know, just arranging material remotely

10:18

because we're all living in different cities. And

10:20

we had over the pandemic, we kind

10:22

of developed an MO that worked really well for

10:24

us because we couldn't get together.

10:26

It's kinda back up a bit. So we early in the

10:28

pandemic, we started employing this

10:30

these songwriting experimentations. And I had come

10:32

up with this idea that, you know, while

10:34

I could just sit here in the studio that I'm in now and

10:36

just kind of plunk out as many songs as

10:38

I could. It might be good to have some different directives

10:42

harmonically to work off of. So

10:44

I came up with this idea that, okay,

10:46

well, there's

10:46

five days in a work week, and

10:48

there's five of us. So

10:50

why don't we

10:51

every week create a random

10:54

order of the five of us?

10:56

that will not necessarily begin with me as

10:58

the songwriter writing a song of

11:00

sorts and sending it out to everybody.

11:02

And instead, it might start

11:04

on Monday with Zach and he'll do something on the

11:06

keyboards or guitar or whatever

11:08

and

11:08

put that to a click track and then he will

11:10

upload it to a Dropbox And then on

11:12

Tuesday, the next member pulls it

11:14

down, adds whatever they want to, and

11:16

then uploads it, and then the next person

11:18

on Wednesday. So on and so forth, until Friday

11:20

when everybody's contributed, the song and person

11:22

on Friday has mixed the demo.

11:25

But the rules that that I put in

11:27

in place were that you had

11:29

only twenty four hours to work on the song.

11:31

So when from the moment you got it till the

11:33

next calendar day had to be done

11:35

or your parts or contributions

11:37

had to be done. And that

11:38

when you had ownership

11:39

of the song, you had complete editorial

11:42

control. So if a piece

11:43

comes in to me on Wednesday and

11:46

it's got a drumbeat out like

11:48

I can throw that out or I can change

11:50

the key by melding it or I

11:52

can slow it down or speed up, whatever I wanna

11:54

do. Mhmm. In this particular case, I

11:56

think I was going on Wednesday or something like that.

11:58

And on Wednesday, music came to

12:00

me and I don't know who had contributed to

12:02

before, but I really didn't like any of

12:04

it. I was like, I just don't I don't wanna work on

12:06

this fuck it. I'm just gonna write a new song and

12:08

then send it to whomever's working on Thursday.

12:11

So I wrote here to forever and then sends

12:13

it along to I believe Zach was the next

12:15

person. So so it kind of became

12:17

this very different. It it was it was kind

12:19

of a break from the way

12:21

we had kind of been working on a lot of material.

12:23

And I think initially there might have been a little bit, like,

12:25

of whoever could gone on Monday and Tuesday was

12:27

like, hey, what the fuck? you threw my

12:29

stuff out and I was like, yeah, that's the deal. That's

12:31

the arrangement we had. We're allowed to do

12:33

that. But

12:33

as tends to be the case, you're

12:35

writing a record, there usually is this moment in the eleventh

12:38

hour where you just kind of write something that isn't

12:40

meant to be a throwaway, but you're so much less

12:42

self conscious about

12:43

the

12:44

work because you feel like you've already got

12:46

everything you need for the record.

12:47

So it just feels like, oh, well, yeah, I just

12:50

had this little idea and can use some lyrics from this

12:52

other song that we're not gonna record that

12:54

I kind of liked. And it's this kind of

12:56

concept over here in the guitar that kind of worked. And

12:58

then before, you know, you have a song that is,

13:00

you know, the single on

13:01

the record or something that becomes

13:03

like a, you know, a cornerstone of the album. And

13:05

that usually tends to be from the distillation

13:08

of all of these other songs that were written

13:10

during the period which you're writing songs to

13:12

the record that didn't get used, but it had little ideas

13:14

here and there that you were able to kind of utilize.

13:16

So a roll of songs on the album, the

13:19

results of that were working them pretty much

13:21

or were the ones you just went away in rows

13:23

on your own? No. I'd

13:24

say it's about

13:26

between half to two thirds of the record

13:28

were created in

13:30

that round robin, the kind of a round

13:32

robin songwriting style. But

13:34

there, you know, is a good, you know, half to

13:36

a third of the record that were written

13:38

in a traditional style of me writing

13:40

the demo and then,

13:41

hey, here's the song, guys. Let's find

13:44

something to play on it. Kind of And

13:46

so it was a really kind of groundbreaking

13:48

way to work for us in the sense that we were

13:50

able to it allowed me to break

13:52

out of my long

13:55

honed harmonic tendencies

13:57

and

13:57

melodic tendencies. Because

13:59

when

13:59

I put my hands on an instrument, my hands tend

14:02

to go similar places and form similar chords

14:04

or and that leads to melody that might

14:06

kind of be of a particular

14:08

vintage in relation to the band.

14:10

So when I'm getting a piece of music from

14:12

Zach and it's utilizing

14:15

chords that I just never would have written

14:17

myself that takes the

14:19

melody to a different place, and then it also ends

14:21

up maybe even evoking

14:23

a different set of images that I end up

14:25

writing about. So

14:25

what about Tim? I don't know how I

14:28

survived. Would that have been one of the ones that came from

14:30

that process? No. That was a

14:32

song that I wrote on my own. Here in my

14:33

little studio. I think

14:36

very early on, it became a song that we

14:38

that I and we very much wanted to be the

14:40

first song on the record for

14:42

myriad reasons. I

14:44

I think it, Lyricly, kind of, sets a

14:46

a very good

14:47

baseline tone for the rest of the album.

14:49

But I also I

14:50

think with this record, there are a number of moments

14:53

that are typical for us. And

14:55

I I wanted I don't know if I survived because

14:57

it it starts out with a fairly

14:58

familiar kind of death cap bounce.

15:01

But when we were kind of when

15:03

we got to the first break in the song

15:05

where all the guitars come in, I

15:06

kept telling John that I wanted I

15:09

wanted to sound like people were just being punched in the

15:11

face, you know. it would

15:13

go from this kind of familiar, like,

15:15

oh, yeah, kind of new lead guitar stuff, a little drama

15:17

sheet. And then I just wanted all the guitars to feel

15:19

like they were a thousand kinds louder than anything

15:21

that happened to that point. And I

15:23

had

15:23

sent the record to a friend a

15:25

couple weeks ago, and the first note

15:27

he gave back to me was like, well, you're gonna be responsible for

15:29

a lot of people's speakers when

15:31

they blow their speakers, like, turning up the beginning

15:33

of the first song and then it hits that first break, I'm

15:35

like, yeah, that was the idea. That was the idea.

15:37

Now it works really well from that sort of

15:40

hypnotic riff at the beginning through

15:42

to where the whole thing kicks in. Yeah.

15:44

That contrast is fantastic. Thank you. Yeah.

15:46

I, you know, I think that a lot of that has to do

15:48

with John's brilliance and his ability

15:50

to kind of capture

15:51

sure you know, he's

15:52

John is is wonderful in

15:54

so many ways, but one thing I I noticed

15:56

from working with him is that you

15:58

give him the concept of the idea and he's

16:00

like, yep, got it. and his

16:02

execution of it tends to be

16:04

even better than you could have imagined in

16:06

your in your wildest dreams.

16:08

And I felt with working with John Cognelson

16:10

that it the time that we were in

16:12

the studio with somebody

16:14

who was truly from our world.

16:16

And that's not a slight to

16:18

anyone else we've ever worked with.

16:20

But John and I had very similar

16:22

record collections. And so that when we

16:24

were speaking about how we wanted

16:26

things to sound, we were able to reference a lot of the same

16:28

records and a lot of the same sounds and if

16:30

we ever got derailed in the

16:32

studio in conversation, it was

16:34

because John and I were talking about

16:36

the shipping news or something like that. We just end

16:38

up going off on some do you remember

16:40

this band? Or I saw these guys then and listened to

16:42

that, and we were guys like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I know you guys

16:44

wanna talk about nineties in the rock, but can

16:46

we get back to the can we get back to the

16:48

record? And as I said, it's not a slight to, you know,

16:50

anybody else we've worked with, but it just felt like,

16:52

you know, for the first time really in a

16:54

very long time, if maybe ever, I

16:56

felt like we were working with somebody who

16:59

shared a larger aesthetic that

17:01

we were

17:01

able to kind of speak in the same language and

17:03

kind of make the songs really

17:05

be what we were hoping they could

17:06

be.

17:14

Just in case

17:17

they all receive.

17:19

Any

17:22

one. Any one.

17:42

And to

17:43

go back to the writing process,

17:45

do you still have a dedicated space

17:47

for song writing? Yeah.

17:50

So I for years I had rented an office

17:52

in a building downtown here in

17:54

Seattle, and I would go there every day

17:56

for, you know, during the

17:56

work where you can work on music. And

17:59

my wife I moved across

18:01

town and and the commute, so

18:03

to speak, to downtown, became kind

18:05

of untenable for me. And

18:06

that just happened to coincide

18:09

really with

18:09

the beginning of the pandemic. So I

18:11

got out of that office space in October,

18:14

November of two thousand nineteen and

18:17

moved my studio into my house here.

18:19

And I had avoided having a

18:21

studio in my house for years because I'd like

18:23

the idea of the separation between

18:25

where I was living and where I was working. But

18:28

as, you know, one can imagine

18:30

when the pandemic hit and, you know,

18:33

we weren't table or allowed to go anywhere, certainly not to an office

18:35

building in town. Yeah. I really lucked out with that

18:37

timing that I had all my gear here at everything

18:39

just literally thirty yards away from the

18:41

bedroom. So when I felt inclined to work on

18:43

music, I could just kinda walk across the

18:45

hall. And, you know, time will tell if I'm gonna keep

18:47

it here forever, but I do

18:49

find that creatively, I like to kind of move my studio every

18:51

five or six years, kinda get a new perspective,

18:53

you know, even if it's still

18:55

my brain, even if it's still the

18:57

same instruments just

18:59

having a different view out the window tends

19:01

to be really beneficial to me. So

19:03

I'm not sure if I'll write the next record in

19:05

this room, but it certainly was a

19:07

godsend to have everything here

19:10

when we were stuck inside. Are

19:11

you still conscious of trying to maintain

19:14

some discipline with that approach even

19:16

though it's in the home? Are you ten and up specific

19:18

time or giving you self limits on

19:20

how long you'll experiment with

19:22

something or anything like that?

19:24

Well, I think the thing that was interesting

19:26

is that

19:26

I found that my

19:28

hours shifted. When I was working

19:31

downtown, I would have to leave

19:33

the house by, okay, I have to get

19:35

all my morning stuff done by nine or nine thirty so

19:37

I can get down to the studio.

19:39

by ten or eleven or whatever and

19:42

be working so that I'm I've got

19:44

momentum going into the morning and then into the

19:46

early afternoon. And if I got too

19:48

distracted with stuff I had to do at home or

19:50

whatever, and maybe

19:50

I just wouldn't go into the studio because there's

19:52

too much of a hassle. But during

19:54

the pandemic, I started shifting my working

19:56

hours to later in the afternoon, and it's

19:58

weird to or might

20:00

seem a little

20:00

bit silly to say that shifting

20:02

my hours even by a little bit, kind of

20:04

cracked

20:04

open new ideas or or

20:07

whatever. But I found that because the

20:09

studios in my house, instead

20:11

of feeling like I had to get here by a certain

20:14

hour or get in the room by a certain hour to

20:16

kind of get the momentum going

20:18

creatively, I allowed myself a lot more time.

20:20

You're like, yeah. I'm gonna go for a run and come back. Actually,

20:22

I'm gonna have lunch. I'm gonna take a nap. I'm gonna start

20:24

at two PM or something like that. and

20:26

then just work to dinner is that because I'm not commuting. It's right

20:28

here. The necessity to kind of get going

20:30

earlier was just not there. So I

20:34

found that working in

20:36

the afternoon after I'd taken care of

20:38

all the errands or phone

20:40

calls or whatever kind of

20:42

stuff I had to do during a regular day that

20:44

I could be completely focused on the work

20:46

I was doing and not be thinking about,

20:49

like, oh, I have to go to the grocery store,

20:51

get stuff for dinner, and actually I leave a

20:53

little early to do that. I'd

20:54

already done all my tasks for

20:56

the day,

20:57

my domestic tasks, and then I could just

20:59

be focusing here for a good three

21:01

to five hours. And I've I've found that

21:03

I'm usually pretty effective for about

21:05

maybe three hours, maybe four

21:07

hours a day, maybe But

21:09

I find that, you know, in most cases,

21:11

writing

21:11

songs or doing writing

21:13

of any sort unless you're

21:16

swallowing handfuls of Adderall.

21:18

I have a limited attention

21:20

span and focus. And I'd much

21:22

rather have those three or four hours

21:25

be highly productive and focused

21:27

than to just be in this

21:29

room trying to write for hours and hours and hours and hours

21:31

and getting over. If it's not happening, I

21:33

just leave, Right. And

21:34

you mentioned going out for a

21:36

run. We know you're a very keen runner,

21:39

and we wondered if that's maybe

21:41

a space for allowing song

21:43

ideas to come through? Or is

21:45

that sort of your time away from

21:47

music? Well, I mean, every once in a while,

21:49

I'll kind of ruminate on a

21:51

lyric idea that maybe is kind of popping it

21:53

out of my head, but more times

21:54

than not, I find

21:56

the older I get that

21:58

I really value the time

22:01

away from

22:02

writing music. Mhmm. And

22:04

for a lot of reasons, primarily

22:07

because it

22:07

just gives you perspective to walk away from something you're

22:09

writing and then come back and listen

22:11

to it or read it later and

22:13

determine if it's as good as you thought it was

22:15

or if it's as bad as you thought it was whatever. So for

22:17

me, like, you know, I spent a lot of time in the mountains

22:19

doing these long adventure runs and

22:22

whatnot, and I

22:23

really kind of value that time as

22:26

when I can kind of get away from this

22:28

room and get away from my instruments

22:30

and try to kind of exist

22:31

as something other than a songwriter for a couple hours?

22:34

So, yeah, sometimes people have asked me, like, oh, you

22:36

must be just, like, on the long run. It's writing

22:38

songs. I'm, like, it's the exact opposite. I they're

22:40

listening to nothing. Well, I'm listening to,

22:42

like, a baseball podcast or something like that. Or

22:44

I'm with friends just bullshitting

22:46

and doing whatever. So, you know, when I was younger,

22:48

I obsess about music

22:51

twenty four or 7II just I was never

22:53

not thinking about it. I was never not

22:56

trying to write it or listen to it or read

22:58

about it or whatever. And as you

23:00

get

23:00

older, you develop other interests.

23:02

And

23:02

I feel creatively the time away

23:04

from the grind of trying to write or

23:07

actually writing is as important as the time he's

23:09

been writing. You could maybe

23:10

run with a light instrument like

23:13

a ukulele get some ideas,

23:15

Tom. I I suppose I could do that. I I think

23:17

that we've hit peak ukulele in this

23:19

world. I think I think there was a

23:21

time when the ukulele was in outside

23:23

of its indigenous roots was kind of like

23:25

a novel instrument. And now it just seems like

23:27

it's the default plunk around kind of,

23:29

you know, like, we

23:30

instrument. So I could do that,

23:31

but I think I'd probably rather just carry, like, a little

23:34

keyboard, you know, with a little little mini

23:36

controllers and like that. Wider

23:38

off my phone or something.

24:04

So when you do come into the room to write, do

24:06

you tend to have some ideas ready

24:08

to go or a stockpile of things that

24:10

you develop in? Or are you literally

24:13

starting from scratch in most cases?

24:15

I usually

24:15

start from scratch because if I

24:18

find that I have a bucket

24:20

of half finished songs, I don't finish any

24:22

of them, you know, when I'm in

24:24

between records and I've

24:26

kind of vomited out everything I have

24:28

to say lyrically on the record

24:30

that's coming out or about to

24:32

come out or has just come

24:34

out? I don't feel lyrically that

24:36

inspired because I feel

24:38

like trying to write lyrics on

24:40

the, you know, eve of the record coming

24:42

out, I feel just kinda be a

24:44

continuation of the themes that are in the record

24:46

that is about to come out.

24:47

I find myself just to give myself something to

24:50

do, like, kind of stockpiling

24:52

instrumentals.

24:52

And I think, like, well, maybe

24:54

I'll come that at some point, but often they just end

24:56

up in a folder that says works in progress and I

24:58

never reach for them. I I don't remember the

25:00

last time I I

25:01

pulled a song out folder and

25:03

finished it, and it became something

25:06

that was released. So more

25:08

often than not, I like to start every song from

25:10

scratch. You know, as one might

25:12

imagine,

25:12

often there are lyrical themes that kind of

25:15

flow through a couple years of

25:17

writing towards an album and, you know, the

25:19

same lyrical concept might be

25:21

spread across four or five songs and there might

25:23

be lyrics that are kind of pulled from each one and

25:25

some kind of trying to I'm grasping a

25:27

straw, trying to find the core of that

25:29

idea and how to express it. as well as I can. And

25:31

in the case of here to forever, there

25:33

are a number of lines in that

25:35

song and kind of concepts that

25:38

we're kind of being dragged across two or three years

25:40

of writing, and I try them in the

25:42

song and see. I wonder if I can wonder if it

25:44

works in here. That kinda does, but the

25:46

second verse doesn't really kind of follow through.

25:49

Okay. Walk away from that one. Well, I can try it

25:51

over here. And it doesn't really work.

25:53

So, you know, one of the moments that I I love most

25:56

doing this for a living is when

25:58

the culmination of months or

26:00

years of work

26:02

of failed experience coalesce

26:04

in a

26:07

song

26:07

that ends up being on the record or in this

26:09

case being the because

26:10

it reminds me that all of those

26:13

months, you know, that you

26:13

worked, all the songs that were written, that you thought

26:16

were failures

26:18

were not failures because they got you to

26:20

this finished product later. You just

26:22

couldn't see it at that point. And that's

26:23

one of the reasons that if anybody ever

26:25

asks, if a younger person, a budding

26:28

songwriter wanted a piece of advice, I would

26:30

tell them to always be writing,

26:32

always be jotting

26:33

things down, finish everything.

26:35

You know, if you start a song, finish it, even

26:37

if it's shitty, even if you have to sing the

26:39

first verse for the second verse, just finish

26:42

it. because there's a real possibility that there's

26:44

something in there that's gonna be valuable

26:46

later and you you won't be able

26:48

to harness it if you don't actually finish

26:50

it. Yeah. Great advice.

26:51

And we wondered if

26:53

if maybe the instruments that you

26:55

use when you're writing sort of

26:58

influence you songwriting in your

27:00

creativity in their own unique ways. For

27:02

instance, if my eyes don't deceive me, I can

27:04

see your your signature fender

27:06

mustang -- Yeah. -- in the background

27:08

there. So wondered if maybe you might write something on

27:10

that that you wouldn't write something on the guitar.

27:13

Certainly, I

27:13

mean, when the band for started, I

27:15

I was playing these

27:18

guitars made by fender called bullets, which

27:20

were, like, an entry level

27:22

guitar with, like, a three quarter

27:24

strat style body and a, like, a

27:26

telecaster neck. and

27:28

the necks were kind of narrow and

27:30

they were three quarter size, but they were

27:32

a little smaller.

27:33

And

27:34

my hands were able to move around the

27:36

fret board in a way that I wasn't able

27:38

to move them across or form the

27:40

similar chords on, like, a guitar with

27:42

a wider neck, you know, like a GNL fender or

27:44

something like that or a thicker neck or whatever. So

27:47

up with a Mustang, getting a Mustang and a

27:49

trade I made with a friend. And when

27:51

I started playing the Mustang, my hands

27:53

immediately kind of started forming similar

27:55

patterns that they did on the bullets. So

27:57

that in my mind kind of

27:59

was the beginning of a renaissance of

28:01

the particular style of guitar playing that

28:04

was present in the earlier death cap records that kind of

28:07

disappeared for a record or

28:09

two, and then started coming back on

28:11

Kintsugi, and thank you for today. And then

28:13

ultimately, Asphalt

28:14

Meadows. So whenever I pick up an

28:15

instrument, it's very interesting how

28:18

the the width of the neck, the feel, the

28:20

frets, the way the instrument feels against

28:22

my body, kind of dictates

28:24

where my hands go and what kind of

28:26

shapes I I throw on the instrument.

28:28

I also believe that guitars have songs

28:31

in them especially

28:32

old guitars. I haven't

28:33

bought a new acoustic guitar in some

28:35

while because I have just too many of them right

28:37

now. But as I rotate through the

28:39

acoustic guitars that I have, It's

28:42

almost like a gambler playing a hot hand.

28:44

You know? It's like if I pick up

28:46

my epifone Cortez and, you know,

28:48

I write something on it, then I'm really proud

28:50

of. I'm like, okay, I'm with the Cortez until it goes

28:52

cold on me, you know. And I even if

28:54

somebody who's not necessarily that superstitious,

28:57

I do feel that can

28:59

write a hot hand on an instrument to

29:01

a lot of songs, but you need to know when to

29:03

fold them, you know, just like as the song says, you need to

29:05

know when to hold them, you need to know when to fold them. You

29:07

need and to, like, move on to a different instrument. Yeah.

29:09

I sound like I'm mis

29:12

strangers, leaps out to me. I don't know

29:14

whether it's a guitar song, but it's so

29:16

driving Jibson. It's got that really

29:18

strong chorus and makes me think

29:20

that's the kind of song that might have come

29:22

from, the sort of energy you have when you

29:24

play guitar, you know? Oh,

29:25

for sure. Yeah. That song began in

29:27

a songwriting rotation in

29:30

which Dave had sent a song

29:32

that was just drum machine

29:34

and him just playing acoustic guitar, and that was

29:36

it. Just kind of comping the

29:38

chords. And when I

29:40

received that song, I realized just with the

29:42

acoustic and the drum machine, there really

29:44

wasn't much to kind of latch onto.

29:46

So I was like, well, I guess I have to write it. I

29:48

have to write a guitar part

29:50

over these core changes, and the changes are

29:52

very simple. But that was definitely a

29:54

function of playing a mustang, you know, just having

29:56

that guitar in my hand. And, you know, the

29:58

guitar line that I'm playing is kind of all over the neck.

29:59

It's kind of was actually a little bit

30:02

difficult to sing and play guitar. So I'm gonna have to

30:04

practice that a bit before we start playing it live

30:06

a lot, but I'm rather proud

30:08

of that guitar

30:08

figure because there's a lot of movement in it,

30:10

but there's only really two chords or three chords.

30:12

And that's something that I've always really kind of

30:14

aspired to as a guitar player

30:17

is to stay as far away from just comping

30:19

chords as possible. You know, obviously, there's a lot

30:21

of music in the world, but I love it as power cords

30:23

and strumming acoustic guitar and and

30:26

whatnot. But from the very onset

30:28

of this band, one of

30:30

our intentions was to kind

30:32

of utilize all three

30:34

melodic kind of or I should say, like, harmonic

30:36

instruments in the band with the bass and two guitars

30:38

per se, and have them all be playing a

30:40

line that is kind of they're all flowing through

30:42

each other and they kind of give the

30:44

impression of chord changes if they're not

30:46

actually comping

30:46

the chords. Right? So with the

30:48

song like I'm a stranger's I

30:50

think that's a pretty effective example

30:53

of that if I can be so

30:55

bold in that, you know, the guitar line

30:57

is moving all over the place, but we're really just

30:59

staying on the same chord but it's feeling

31:01

of constant movement and change even

31:03

though nothing in the cordial world is

31:05

changing home. You were by

31:08

my side on the one

31:14

line.

31:21

casualties on the phone.

31:54

and

31:54

lyrically speaking on that song, is

31:56

that chorus refrain the kind of

31:58

line that'll come to you quite

31:59

early on in the writing of the song which you'll

32:02

use almost there's maybe a jumping off point

32:04

for the rest of the Lyric. Oh,

32:06

for sure.

32:06

I I feels if I might have taken it

32:08

from a conversation with

32:11

a a friend at some point or the

32:13

pandemic. And III don't know if

32:15

if they said it or I or I said it,

32:17

but we kind of just dancing

32:19

around this concept of, like, yeah. I mean, I just I'm misstrange with

32:21

what I miss my friends. I miss sitting in a bar

32:23

and just, you know, hearing

32:26

that conversations happening even if they're annoying

32:28

or, you know, it's,

32:28

like, in the absence of

32:31

the den of

32:31

humanity around us, I

32:34

came to the conclusion that that

32:36

kind of just like low level

32:38

of humanity happening around me

32:40

at all times even when it

32:43

was obnoxious or annoying,

32:45

was still a large part of the kind

32:48

of the sound of being alive.

32:50

the sound of conversations happening and babies

32:52

crying and announcements coming

32:54

over PAs and, you know, obviously, in my

32:56

in my high Aubbies is an ultra runner. I

32:58

I often like to get away from that and be out in

33:00

the mountains by myself or or with just

33:03

like a small group of people. But

33:05

you

33:05

know, the hustle and bustle of life in

33:07

a urban center is a huge part of

33:09

what gives me life and is

33:11

is inspiring to

33:13

me. And so to be without that

33:15

for such a long time was rather

33:17

striking. I would

33:18

guess your lyrics

33:21

often so rich in detail

33:23

that it's important to be able to observe things

33:25

like that going on so that you can incorporate

33:27

them into songs. but it

33:29

doesn't seem to have you in any way because, you know, something like

33:32

wheat like waves. We love the

33:34

nineties

33:34

accord with mismatched doors. So

33:36

that's one of our favorites.

33:38

Yeah. I

33:39

I wrote that song to my friend, Torquil Campbell,

33:41

who's in the band stars, and it's

33:44

as

33:44

with virtually everything I write, there's a kernel

33:47

of truth

33:47

in the song or I I should say, like, a kernel

33:49

of reality in it. And then around

33:51

that kernel of reality is is a

33:53

lot of kind of fictional

33:55

scenarios and and details that

33:58

were not true to life. When I set the record

33:59

to torque, and I told

34:01

him the song was, you know, for

34:03

him the thing he took issue with

34:05

the most was that he did not drive

34:07

a nineties accord with mismatched doors.

34:09

Like, actually, it's a it's a Lex or

34:11

what because I know him the Lexus, but it was a

34:13

nicer car and he was like, I'm I don't know, man. I'm just

34:15

a little bit offended that you threw me

34:18

into a you gave me an accord in

34:20

this song. And

34:21

so much of

34:21

what I pull from for the lyrics and

34:23

the

34:23

stories are kind of

34:26

connected

34:27

to moments

34:28

or times in my life like that where I just had this

34:31

very distinct memory of driving

34:33

around in these, like, vast

34:36

fields in Midwestern Canada

34:38

with my friend and listening to

34:40

pretty fast crowd. And and when I have these moments

34:42

in my life, I just kind of catalog them. I just

34:44

kind of just file them away in

34:47

my brain as much because they're

34:49

good memories primarily, but also

34:51

selfishly

34:51

as a songwriter mean,

34:53

I

34:53

think all writers are always doing this. Right? We're always kind

34:56

of, oh, that might be a good thing for a song

34:58

later or that might be a good character for my

35:00

novel or whatever. And, you know,

35:02

in that time, torque and I were together. And this

35:04

weekend, we were hanging out. There

35:05

was a very cinematic quality to a lot of it,

35:07

and I just kind of filed that away as

35:09

maybe that would be Maybe

35:11

that would be part of a song at

35:13

some point.

35:14

Read like waves.

35:18

Canadian planes were

35:20

a lotion in wide. Flow

35:22

into the sky.

35:25

Three traps sprout. echoing

35:28

now. No. Your

35:30

nine is a cord.

35:32

You've miss match. door.

35:36

Way

35:37

from the

35:39

wild. Just

35:40

a few days traveling

35:44

bye. My devotion

35:45

is a blade. With

35:47

a homesteader's light.

35:51

forty five. It was

35:53

just a fleeting

35:56

dream. There's a

35:57

way I'd serve

35:59

We really got

36:02

to kick

36:04

out of

36:06

the prefab sprout

36:09

wrap friends. That's sort of our favorite buns.

36:11

I love pre wrap sprout. And

36:13

and torque, he turned me onto a couple of

36:15

their records that I had not spent much time

36:18

with and the

36:18

specific record we're listening to was I love music. Do you know

36:21

that record? Oh, and let's change the world

36:23

with music. Let's change the that's

36:25

where I'm sorry. Let's change the world of music. Yeah. I love that one. Yeah.

36:28

Yeah. The the song is God I love music.

36:30

Mhmm. And I remember, you know,

36:32

driving with torque and him just

36:34

saying, like, what

36:34

a brave and bold thing to do to just write an entire record about how

36:36

much you love music. And his perspective

36:39

really kind of turned me around, not

36:41

that I was disliking the

36:44

record, but it was really kind of a beautiful sentiment, to

36:46

think that paddy's written so many incredible

36:48

songs and those early records especially

36:52

very inspiring to me, but that, you

36:54

know, it's this record that he

36:55

writes this just about how much he

36:57

loves music that I'm sure a lot of people would think

36:59

was kinda cheesy.

37:02

or to earnest or heartfelt,

37:04

but I just found it

37:06

to be incredibly beautiful and also brave,

37:09

you know, to to choose to make

37:11

an something that is not something that people

37:14

tend to have the courage

37:16

to do. courage to do Yeah.

37:18

We love Paddy and and all of those songs.

37:20

So your sort of cinematic lyrical

37:22

style as you sort of described it.

37:25

Was that present in even your earliest songs,

37:28

would you say? Or is that something you feel that you've

37:30

honed? Or that's a

37:32

merge experience? I think it was something

37:34

that I was trying to

37:36

do on the

37:36

early records. And I think I

37:38

was able to do it successfully in certain

37:41

instances in certain songs. When I

37:43

listen back to the first two or three records,

37:45

there are these moments where

37:48

I'm now

37:48

see I think

37:50

I was saying one thing or I think I was

37:52

accomplishing a

37:53

particular cinematic quality,

37:56

but then in listening to them again, they was like, oh, they

37:58

just seen, like, early REM lyrics just make that words, like,

38:00

they are these kind of

38:02

pastiche of imagery that

38:04

works in the context

38:04

of the song to kind of create a mood

38:08

but it's not necessarily creating, like, a movie

38:10

in your mind. Right? And

38:12

for me, I think the first song that

38:15

I wrote in Deathcab that really

38:17

kind of

38:19

achieved that cinematic quality that

38:21

I was going for. It was a sample

38:23

company called Epilogue on than

38:25

we have the facts we're willing yes. That was the first

38:27

time where I had the series of images and

38:29

I wanted to kind of create this

38:32

little movie And in my

38:34

humble opinion, I think I was able to do

38:36

that in a pretty effective way and

38:38

also in in a manner that was what

38:40

I had been going for all along. And

38:42

I think in a lot of ways,

38:44

company calls Epilogue became one

38:46

of the major templates for how

38:48

I would write songs for Death Cap moving

38:50

forward from that record in

38:52

that. I wanted people to

38:55

hear the songs and be

38:58

flooded with imagery that they could kind of see

39:00

in their mind's eye. But that in that

39:02

imagery, in that story, where, you

39:04

know, lines kind of tucked in here and there

39:06

that were, like, clever

39:07

observations

39:09

that

39:09

hopefully did not attract too much

39:12

attention in themselves, but just kind of

39:14

helped to add some color to the the story, to the

39:16

narrative. Yeah. I also like that

39:18

even when you write these very

39:20

descriptive, sorts of

39:22

cinematic vignettes, if

39:24

you'll permit me to use the word vignettes, that,

39:26

you know, you'll still use the first person.

39:29

It's not autobiographical, but

39:31

you'll tell it. like it is. I

39:33

think I think what Sarah said that was that example of that approach?

39:36

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I I've

39:38

always preferred

39:40

first person I think

39:42

because when somebody's

39:44

singing

39:44

in first person, it gives the impression

39:46

that they are communicating

39:48

something about their own life.

39:50

and

39:51

a lived experience versus third person

39:53

where you're telling a story

39:56

and she, they,

39:58

what have you, did this,

39:59

and then this happened. There's a

40:01

detachment with third

40:04

person. And as I

40:05

think of some of the greatest songwriters of all

40:07

time who use third person, like

40:09

Bruce Springsteen comes to mind. Right? Always, you

40:11

know, writing a lot of, like, well, he

40:13

did this, and then then he did that, she said that. And he's kind of

40:16

taken on, like, a bard kind of

40:18

quality in his work and people see him

40:20

as this,

40:22

like, which is what he is. That's such a great songwriter and storyteller, but I

40:24

mean imagine if all those Bruce Springsteen songs

40:26

have been in first person, like every one

40:28

of them. we would have a very different

40:31

idea of Bruce Springsteen as an

40:33

artist, I believe. If he was

40:35

giving you the impression by

40:37

singing

40:37

in first person that he was singing about a personal

40:40

experience. Right? But I

40:42

like leading in the first person because

40:45

I think

40:45

that first person comes with an implied

40:48

authority

40:48

and truthfulness whether or not you're

40:51

writing some of this complete

40:53

the action fiction because

40:54

you're singing with your own voice and saying, I did this, I

40:56

did that. I think it's why people

40:58

are fans

40:59

of this band is that if I'm

41:01

singing in

41:01

first person, and they're

41:03

relating to what I'm singing about. And

41:06

then they're singing the song

41:07

for themselves or listening to it and

41:09

hearing me sing, I did this.

41:11

I did that. they're not thinking of me doing those things.

41:13

They're seeing themselves do them. And I think that kind of

41:16

creates an even deeper

41:18

connection to

41:19

the song or the artist when, you

41:21

know, the listener was

41:22

able to kind of put themselves in

41:24

the shoes

41:25

of the person singing. You know? It's like

41:27

when I was a kid, listening

41:29

to pictures of you out of

41:32

care. I'm not thinking of Robert

41:34

Smith looking at a bunch of

41:36

pictures of somebody. I'm thinking about someone in

41:38

my own life. that I'm

41:39

missing for whatever reason. And I'm singing along with that

41:41

song as if

41:42

it is about me and not about

41:44

the person who's actually singing it. And I think that

41:48

is one

41:48

of the many reasons that I I like to employ first person is because it

41:50

allows the listener to kind of place himself in

41:53

the song to a much larger

41:55

degree than

41:56

if you're writing a third person. That's exactly

41:58

it. It's like that line from asphalt

41:59

Meadows, the song. You know, your kiss was a

42:02

lonely prayer. when you slipped

42:04

into my mouth. I mean, everyone who hears

42:06

that they think of a moment in their own

42:08

lives. Don't they? They're looking for

42:10

that

42:10

emotional connection, I think. Yeah. I

42:12

would hope so. And, you know, certainly with that line in particular, you know,

42:14

in my mind, it's kind of that

42:16

act of affection as a,

42:18

like, please don't leave me. you

42:21

know, or please love me or please like me

42:23

or whatever. It must be reiterated not everything

42:25

I write about, of course, is something that happens to

42:27

me. But if

42:28

a song is gonna connect, there

42:30

has to be some kind of lived experience that can

42:32

present you in

42:34

your mind's eye, the imagery,

42:36

and the narrative to kind

42:38

of make it not so

42:39

much believable

42:40

but have it become relatable. And

42:42

so, you know,

42:42

everything that I write is not

42:45

necessarily a a verbatim series

42:48

of experiences that happens to me, but

42:50

it's like when you wake up from, like, a

42:52

dream and you kinda remember it.

42:54

And, like, I was in my house, but it wasn't my

42:56

house, and you were there, but

42:57

you were speaking Portuguese. You know, it's

42:59

just like, you know, series

43:02

of disparate images and

43:04

and kind

43:05

of twisted scenarios.

43:07

And then as I sit with

43:09

those for longer and longer, they kind of start to

43:11

kind of form a narrative. And then as you come

43:13

up with all these great lines, you get people like those saying them back to you all

43:15

the time, which must be really

43:18

enjoyable. Well, I

43:20

I mean, I don't know. It's

43:22

like I feel like as a songwriter, I'm always just chasing

43:23

that perfect line because when I listen

43:25

to music, the lyricist

43:27

that kind of

43:29

have made such an impression on me and have been so influential to

43:31

me. They all have those, like, those lines. It's,

43:34

like, in it. You could have a song that's just a

43:36

straight narrative no real

43:38

flowery

43:38

imagery or kind of evocative kind

43:40

of stuff. And then you just toss one of the little things in there.

43:42

You're just like, oh, man. It's such a great line.

43:44

So in my own little

43:45

way, I'm I'm just trying to kind of

43:48

in every song, maybe just throw one little thing in

43:50

there that at least one little thing in there that,

43:52

you know, somebody might go, oh, that's a great line.

43:55

know, you know, somebody quotes it back to me like, okay, mission

43:57

accomplished on that one. That's the

43:59

good line on

44:00

that. is

44:04

a tiny prince and father's side.

44:09

my me

44:20

you know

44:44

Well,

44:46

our times almost up, but we thought we'd finish on the air, the clothes

44:48

and track of the new album. I'll never give

44:50

up on you, which we just think is

44:53

such a strong clothes and track. Really kind of puts the button

44:55

on the album. We were saying earlier, it's

44:58

like David Caruso, putting the shades on,

45:00

stepping out of frame and see what's up in Miami

45:02

and everything.

45:04

I love that. I love that. Yeah. But I

45:06

thought the lyrical sentiments in that one, and

45:08

this meant as a compliment, it reminds me a

45:10

little of if I ever lose my faith,

45:13

by

45:13

sting. Do you know

45:14

that song? I do. And and you know

45:16

what's interesting about that is the

45:18

initial draft of the lyric had

45:20

a

45:21

couple things in it that

45:22

were, by

45:23

no means, taken from that

45:24

song, but were related closely enough that

45:27

I

45:27

think Zach was as long as, like, you know that

45:29

song by staying on, like,

45:32

Yeah. I mean, kinda and I haven't heard it in twenty years or something like that. I

45:34

mean, no disrespect to sting or anything like that. I'm

45:36

a fan of the police. I like sting, but,

45:38

you know, that's not a song that I

45:40

gotten rotation in my car, you know. Mhmm. And he's like, well, you

45:43

might it's you you put it on the list to

45:45

be like, oh, yeah. I should probably push

45:48

it a little bit away because that was

45:51

Zach had made that connection too. And I think

45:53

that what's difficult when you wanna say something

45:55

simple in a song

45:58

in twenty twenty two is that

46:00

it's

46:00

very difficult to

46:01

kind of utilize

46:04

a simple sentiment

46:05

and not have

46:07

it been done a thousand times.

46:09

Right? You know, the idea of never giving up on

46:11

somebody or never leaving somebody or whatever

46:13

subject to many songs. In fact, I was in

46:15

New York last week and I was in an

46:17

elevator in our hotel and, like, there was a song

46:19

that was something like, well, I'll never

46:22

give up phone you is like a country song. Like, what is this song?

46:24

Like, I I Googled we put all the lyrics

46:26

into, like, Google to make sure they weren't in

46:28

another song. And then this what

46:30

who is this? Like, did this just come out?

46:32

Like, what's going on? So, you know,

46:34

I think that as we were kind of

46:36

putting the record together. That was a song that we liked

46:39

musically. And, you know, I think,

46:40

lyrically, it's not, you know, it's not

46:42

the most evocative or strongest on the record.

46:45

But I think that because there was so much

46:47

kind of dense material lyrically in the

46:49

record that we wanted to end on something

46:51

that was an

46:52

exhale of sorts, rather than another

46:54

deep dive into the

46:57

musings about environmental destruction or

46:59

something. You know? Like, we wanted

47:01

to wanted to keep little light at the end. And so I

47:03

think that song kind of works rather well

47:06

there. And initially, we

47:07

had talked about

47:09

having it maybe a little earlier in the record and maybe should we push it up

47:11

or this and that? And it just felt like it

47:13

was a really strong album closure because on

47:15

most of our albums, we tend to kinda close

47:17

something kinda quiet or a

47:19

ballad or something that kind of goes out with a

47:21

whimper. And we figured,

47:22

well, why don't I just put, like, the loudest song

47:24

or one of the

47:26

loudest songs of the record at the

47:28

end? and have that in the record. So I'm

47:30

glad you guys did that one because it's a yeah. It's kind of cool little quota

47:32

on the record. Yeah. We love it.

47:34

Definitely. Well, we'll

47:36

let you

47:37

go, Ben, but thanks so much for talking to

47:39

us. It's been a blast. Yeah. Thank you for talking

47:41

with me as well. I appreciate your

47:43

time. And hopefully, see each other

47:46

in your life sometime soon. Okay. Cheers, Ben. Take care. Alright. Bye. Bye bye.

47:49

I'll

47:51

never get give up

47:54

on you. I'll

47:56

never give up on you.

48:02

I'll never give up on you.

48:06

I'll never

48:08

give up on you.

48:35

That was

48:39

Ben

48:41

Gibbon talking to us about the new

48:44

death camp acutee album asphalt Meadows. And what a

48:46

brilliant guy, Simon, with lots to say

48:48

about songwriter -- Yeah. -- really

48:50

enjoyed yeah really enjoyed it.

48:52

and so cool what they did on this album with that round robin

48:54

five day songwriting routine. Yeah,

48:56

I think that's the first. Isn't it on

48:58

this podcast? I'm not sure anyone's

49:01

written an album in quite that way before

49:03

that we've spoken to, I think so.

49:05

Just goes to show you don't have to sit around

49:07

waiting for inspiration necessarily.

49:09

you know can find you if you commit to a

49:12

routine and a deadline. Yeah. And

49:14

so cool to get to read a bunch of his

49:16

lyrics back

49:18

to. And just here, are we takes those

49:20

things apart and describes how they were constructed? because

49:22

he's so gray with words, isn't he?

49:24

He's a truly gifted word with.

49:27

Yeah. And then getting an inside look into

49:29

his thought processes and what goes into

49:31

those words was a a real joy. I

49:33

love that gambling analogy as well.

49:35

where he like, his flow state on a particular

49:38

guitar to getting a hot handing

49:40

cards. Yeah. Yeah. And how he tries to

49:42

stick with that until he feels his look

49:44

ebbing away. Yeah. Great

49:46

way to think about striking while

49:48

the iron is hot or the hand is hot,

49:51

I guess. Absolutely. So cheers to Ben for taking the time and

49:53

giving us so much good stuff and thanks again

49:56

to Harriet and also

49:58

to Rachel. as fault Mendoza

49:59

is out now and more than maintains the

50:02

high standard of previous debt cap

50:04

outings. Yep. So check it out

50:06

and we'll be back soon. In the meantime, look

50:08

after yourselves.

50:10

Bye bye.