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Music

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Hello and welcome to So The Jerker On Songwriting,

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episode 248. I'm

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Simon and I'm Brian and joining us

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today is a Mercury and Brit Award nominated

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English singer, songwriter and podcaster.

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As well as boasting formidable vocal chops

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and scoring four top ten albums to date,

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she's collaborated with the varied likes of Ed Sheeran,

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Kylie Minogue, Paul Buchanan, Nicki Minaj,

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Haim, Bobby Womack, Ryan Tedder

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and Disclosure.

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As this episode drops, she's just unleashed her

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fifth studio album, the Stuart Price

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and James Ford produced That Feels Good.

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We are chuffed to welcome the lovely Jessie

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Ware to the show.

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Jessie was born in Hammersmith, London in 1984 and raised

0:56

in Clapham. The middle

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child of three, she was the daughter of Lenny, short

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for Helena, a social worker, and John, a BBC

1:03

journalist, and raised by her mum from the age of

1:05

ten. A keen singer from an early age,

1:07

Jessie attended Allen School in Dulwich, South

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London, where her fellow pupils included Florence

1:12

Welsh, Jack Pignate and Felix

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White of the Maccabees, and she was often given the

1:16

plum roles in school productions.

1:18

Already a fan of R&B and hip-hop, in

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her late teens she immersed herself in the capitals

1:22

drum and bass scene and was a regular attendee

1:25

at Brixton Raves. Despite her musical

1:27

leanings and natural yen for performing, she

1:29

opted to study English literature at the University

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of Sussex, following which she briefly worked

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as a journalist and seriously considered a career

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in law, but kept up the singing at her mum's

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encouragement.

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While touring as a backing vocalist with old school friend

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Jack Pignate, Jessie was introduced to

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the dance artist and producer Subtract, resulting

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in the 2010 single Nervous. Subtract

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in turn introduced her to Sampha, with whom

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she collaborated on the 2011 track Valentine,

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which, along with other collabs like The Vision

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with dubstep and grime producer Joker, helped

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land her a deal with PMR Records.

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Another important mentor was musician

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and producer David Kumu who was instrumental

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in Jesse's 2012 debut album The

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Mercury Prize nominated Devotion. 2014's

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Tough Love included contributions from the likes

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of Benny Blanco and Ed Sheeran, Hazz

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did 2017's Glass House which is

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arguably her most intimate and personal collection of

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songs to date. 2020's What's

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Your Pleasure not unlike her brand new record

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skewed very much towards the dance floor.

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Outside of music Jesse's also a hugely

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successful podcaster.

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Since 2017 with her mum Lenny she's

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co-hosted the smash hit culinary themed

2:33

Table Manners on which the pair share

2:35

food and freewheeling conversation with a positively

2:38

glittering array of celebrity guests. It's

2:40

even spawned its own best-selling cookbook.

2:42

If you're listening to Soderjeker on songwriting for the

2:44

first time and would like to hear more follow

2:47

us on your pod platform of choice so you never miss

2:49

a future episode and don't neglect to comb

2:51

through our archive of almost 250 interviews

2:54

with talented songwriters like Jesse.

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This is a fully independent ad and sponsor

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free show so if you'd like to help us maintain

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that status quo give whatever you can spare

3:02

at Soderjeker.com slash donate.

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Before we continue our thanks to Flossy for

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her help setting up the interview. Okay

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we hope you enjoy our conversation with the lovely

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Jesse Ware.

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Hey hello nice to see you thanks

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for joining us. Thanks for asking

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me to be on

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I'm

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really touched. Yeah we

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were looking forward to asking you about the new music. Yeah

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have you heard it? Of course. Yeah

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it kicks off in

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that informed us with that feels good.

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That sort of concept of pleasure being

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a right is quite a nice empowering thing

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to kick off an album with I think.

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I think also I'm constantly

4:10

in all my albums trying to tie them all together

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whether that's like me saying the word devotion

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on album three or like slipping

4:19

a pleasure in there to kind of wink

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to what's your pleasure I mean I want it to kind

4:23

of feel like a continuous journey because I guess that's

4:25

what's without sounding like a total wanker

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I guess that's what we're all trying to do but

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yeah I think it's it's meant to be celebratory

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and triumphant and I don't think I would

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have been able to make this record at any

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other time of my career or life and

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I feel good and I feel confident and I

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feel free and I feel like I'm

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making really good creative

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decisions and it feels empowering

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so that feels good felt like

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the blueprint and also the way

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to kick start this record with that

4:58

celebration. Yeah I mean the whole vibe of

5:00

the album gives the impression that you know this

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is a confident artist who knows themselves

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and is comfortable in their own skin and

5:06

I think you've said as well that you had to put aside

5:08

sort of years of anxiety and imposter

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syndrome I mean it does take bravery doesn't

5:13

it to put your creative ideas out there.

5:15

Yeah I mean look I kind of wished

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I'd been a bit more brave earlier on to

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be honest I kind of hid behind

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a really cool mask

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of like R&B electronic

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R&B I was working with David

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Kumu who was the kindest

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soul who protected me and made

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the first experience of making a record so

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beautiful and

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special but he

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was holding my hand through the whole process like

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a big brother and I was learning

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and that first record did really

5:48

well critically and I just

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didn't feel like I deserved it yet do you

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know what I mean so kind of you go through

5:54

that you fight with yourself a bit and then

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I think with what's your pleasure it felt

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like a bit

5:59

of a kind of last chance to dance. Let's go

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out with a bang. If I'm going to lose my record deal,

6:04

then I'm going to have fucking good fun doing

6:06

it with James Ford. Again, it was

6:08

that big brother role that James

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adopted too. I think I like making

6:13

music in a very confined space

6:16

where it's not big music excepts

6:18

coming in. Also, nobody else bringing in

6:20

their opinion apart from if they feel like they're

6:22

dancing or not. And I think that could have only

6:24

happened with me

6:26

grabbing it by the horns and also feeling like,

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no, this is my time to really show myself,

6:30

try all the things. And if

6:33

it comes across as a bit of musical theatre

6:35

with a bit of groove, with a bit of kind

6:37

of filth, well, maybe that's my

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genre that I've created for myself and I'm

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okay with it because people seem to like it.

6:43

Yeah, I sort of feel the same way about pearls

6:45

as well. That seems to have all of those elements

6:48

in it for me. It's got

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quite a dramatic feel, but

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it's also quite personally reflective.

6:54

I'd say, you know, that great line, I'm a

6:56

lady and a lover, a freak and a mother. You capture

6:59

quite a lot about real life, just

7:02

all the different things that we juggle.

7:03

I think that's the closest that I've got to being

7:06

autobiographical in this

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new record, to be honest. And

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if I think about it, it was said

7:14

with ease and confidence.

7:17

I'm so nine to five, I'm a lady, I'm a lover, I'm a freak

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and a mother. I'm all of these things and that's okay.

7:21

And I wear many different hats. I'm a podcaster,

7:24

I'm a mum,

7:25

I'm a musician. I fill in

7:27

for Jo Wiley on a Monday to Thursday

7:29

when she's on the halls, you know, like, great.

7:32

I love it. I love having all these

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things.

7:35

But also, I think it

7:37

was almost kind of flippant rather than

7:40

on like album three where I was like, oh God,

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I'm a mum and I'm a musician and I'm

7:44

really struggling here. It's okay,

7:46

I'm having a nice time with it. But yeah, I

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mean, it's there for a second, the autobiographical

7:51

part of it. But like,

7:53

I guess that's quite nice too, to kind

7:56

of dip in and out. I really feel like

7:58

my way of...

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writing music has

8:02

improved when I stopped

8:04

shining the light on myself as much, if that makes

8:06

sense. I

8:07

like telling stories and it can

8:09

be other people's stories. My experience can be

8:11

shared in that, but

8:13

it's definitely felt more freeing, writing

8:15

like that for myself.

8:17

That song was from the Stuart Price camp,

8:19

I think. Yeah, he's amazing.

8:21

Yeah, how did that one start out? That

8:24

one started out. It was with Kofi

8:27

and Stuart Price, who I'd written for yourself

8:29

in Lightning with, and Sarah

8:31

Hudson, who I wrote with Kofi

8:33

on the last record. We did a song called The Kill,

8:36

we did some stuff on The Deluxe. We've made really good

8:38

friends and I love working with him. And I knew that I wanted

8:40

him to have more of an input in this record.

8:42

He's an amazing songwriter.

8:44

And he has this kind of sister

8:47

in music called Sarah Hudson, who he did

8:49

a lot of the Dua Lipa stuff with. She's

8:51

a force to be reckoned with. And she was over on a

8:53

writing session.

8:55

And sometimes you think maybe it's going to be too many

8:57

cooks in the kitchen, too many

8:59

personalities. It was so much fun.

9:02

But the reason I said that I'm so

9:04

new to Five Thing is because we

9:06

were all just sitting around like

9:08

Stuart's really brilliant and a really doting

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father. And when you're making the music,

9:13

it's like really focused and he's there for you. But

9:15

when he's out of it, he's picking up the kids who are

9:17

doing that. And I really respect that. And I wish he

9:20

could be a bit better at like compartmentalizing

9:22

things. So we

9:23

were having such a great time and it started the session

9:26

at maybe 11 o'clock.

9:27

Because I want to be back

9:29

for bath time. And I'd

9:31

start at nine o'clock, hence the nine

9:33

to five thing, because everyone was like

9:35

chatting a bit and I was a bit like, come

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on, let's get on with this. Like,

9:40

got one day. Come on. And

9:42

and I'd said to Stuart that I kind of felt like

9:45

something that was missing on the record was a kind of Tina

9:47

Marie Shaka moment that had

9:49

a bit of groove. But it was confident. It was kind

9:51

of a diva vocal.

9:53

But it wasn't like a dance song

9:55

in the same sense that free yourself. It was like really done.

9:57

Let's do something else like more of a groove one.

9:59

one that could start the dance

10:02

floor, a wedding, those kind of ones. And

10:05

yeah, Sarah was chatting, and

10:07

she's a force of nature. She's

10:09

brilliant. And she was chatting, and she saw

10:11

a mother of... He has a beautiful guitar, and

10:13

he had a mother of pearl, but I don't even know what you call that

10:15

bit. What do you call that bit? You've got loads of guitars in

10:17

the background. The ring around the sound pole,

10:19

you mean, on a guitar? Yeah. All of

10:21

that was mother of pearl.

10:24

So we had pearls and all. We were looking at that,

10:26

and we went, oh, pearls. And think coffee. So

10:29

shake it till the pearls fall off. And he was like, oh,

10:31

I like that. Okay, we can make a song about that.

10:33

And it's a double entendre innuendo.

10:36

Perfect. Chef's kiss. But

10:38

they were taking their time chatting

10:40

and rah, rah, rah. And I was like, for fuck's sake, let's just get

10:42

on with fucking writing the song. I'm really impatient.

10:45

Benny Blanco used to find it insufferable

10:47

with me in the studio, because

10:49

he'd be like, we're all chatting,

10:51

and we're going shopping. And I'm like, and we're fucking

10:53

starting the song at like four o'clock in the afternoon. I

10:56

want to get dinner in a few hours. So

10:59

I'm so nine to five. It was out of pure frustration,

11:01

I think, that we hadn't started the song yet. So yeah,

11:03

that's how that came about. And

11:06

it was really fun. And it just kind

11:08

of, we went back and forth on it and we

11:11

perfected things. But it

11:13

was really fun to write. And it kind of

11:15

wrote itself.

11:49

It's interesting you mentioned Tina Marie and Shaka Khan,

11:51

because I was about to ask, did you have any particular artists

11:54

or tracks in mind for inspiration? Well,

11:56

not just for that song, but the album in general.

11:59

Yeah, I mean, like.

11:59

probably quite obviously, like Stevie

12:02

Wonder's Another Star

12:03

was a big reference for Begin Again. I

12:06

remember I had some Mohawk dropping that

12:08

at like a sonar after party years

12:10

ago and me just thinking like, this is so

12:13

good.

12:14

You know, we're an electronic dance

12:16

festival and he's dropping Another Star

12:18

and it's getting everyone going. And

12:20

I wanted that kind of feeling. What

12:23

else was that? B-52s

12:25

on a song called Shake the Bottle. Donna

12:28

Summer, of course, with some of those BVs

12:31

on Pearl especially.

12:33

I'd done a documentary

12:35

on Radio 4 about Donna Summer

12:38

and I found it really fascinating. I think she's

12:40

a bit of an unsung hero within disco. I feel

12:43

love. Love to love you baby. All of

12:45

these songs. She was pioneering like them

12:47

as a group, you know, Giorgio Moroder.

12:49

It was really amazing. So

12:52

I'm kind

12:52

of fascinated by her. Who

12:55

else? Rotary Connection, Earth

12:57

Wind and Fire, those ensemble

13:00

vocals that feel like

13:02

there's so much togetherness and

13:04

soul in the room. So I would be like, in

13:06

another BV, let's go. And

13:08

like, yeah, it was probably a real pain for poor

13:11

Dan, who mixed it. Yeah, poor

13:13

Sodge. I know it was a pain. He was like,

13:15

there's so much here. I just like

13:17

it. I want everyone singing.

13:19

We love the way it serves your voice as

13:21

well. That song, you sound really great

13:24

on that. Thanks. Do you think a lot about

13:26

how the songs work with your voice? Like,

13:28

are they designed to sit within

13:31

your range in a particular way so you can hit that

13:33

sweet spot in the chorus? I

13:34

don't think that is my range. I think it's like

13:37

maybe two tones above my range. And

13:39

that's, I mean, look, let's

13:41

not beat around the bush. Stuart Price is a whiz with

13:43

a vocal. I'm not saying I didn't do

13:45

that. I can attest that I can

13:47

sing. And I sung it at 11

13:50

in the morning on Ken Bruce, the piano

13:52

sessions. It was half a tone lower because

13:54

I'm stupid. But

13:57

it's a bugger.

13:58

Also,

15:46

internet

16:00

connections, of course it wasn't the same. So

16:02

we can never just sing together like this, like

16:05

you wouldn't be able to do a choir on Zoom

16:07

right now. Even if I was the only

16:09

person playing the music, do you know what I mean?

16:11

It would always be a bit out. So what we would

16:14

do is mute ourselves on Zoom,

16:17

use our phones and WhatsApp voice

16:19

note ideas to each other on

16:22

this group WhatsApp.

16:23

And we'd have to time it in because we wouldn't hear

16:25

the music on the voice note because we wanted

16:27

it clean. So we'd be listening to that. It

16:30

was so irritating. I never

16:32

wanna go back to it.

16:33

And then the frustration was that I

16:35

flew them over and I was like, finally.

16:38

And then James got COVID and gave it to Shun

16:40

on the first day. So then we were back into

16:42

isolation,

16:43

but we were on the same time zone then. So

16:46

that was slightly better. So the majority

16:48

of the record that I made with

16:51

my kind of trusted three was

16:54

on Zoom. Begin again, that feels good,

16:56

Shake the Bottle, what are the other

16:59

ones? Beautiful People. The

17:01

two that weren't made on the internet

17:03

were These Lips and Hello

17:05

Love. And

17:07

we finished Hello Love

17:10

on the last day when everyone tested negative.

17:13

And I'm so proud of that song. I love it

17:15

so much. And then I'm kind of, there's the greedy

17:18

me thinking, God, imagine if we'd been

17:20

together for the whole time, would we have made

17:22

a better album? I don't know. I'm so proud of this record,

17:24

but you just never know. It would have been entirely different

17:27

music.

17:28

Ooh, I flip the switch

17:30

and pick on the flame. Ooh,

17:32

I pull it up like strawberry

17:35

rain. Ooh, I shake it, shake

17:37

it and put on the top. That's

17:40

the way to make my

17:42

bottle pop. So what

17:44

sort of things are your

17:48

domain in the

17:50

songwriting process?

17:59

Is it everything that you're kind of responsible

18:02

for or do you like to take control of particular

18:04

aspects

18:05

of the song? It's incredibly

18:08

shared so I will come with

18:11

a reference or an idea or a mood.

18:15

James will start

18:17

playing a beat, I will kind of direct

18:20

him or we'll get excited about something then

18:23

we'll be like cool we've got the chords or

18:25

whatever and then Mee-shun and Danny will

18:27

write away and James will be working

18:29

on production and then he'll kind of

18:31

be involved and say yeah I like that, I really

18:34

like that, those words, why

18:36

don't you change that, what about changing that? You

18:38

know so very much it's kind of like

18:40

I would drive an idea

18:43

or James would come with a beat that he would

18:45

have had me in mind because of the references

18:47

I would have sent him before so

18:49

it's completely collaborative, I

18:52

couldn't do it on my own but I

18:54

love the kind of union that we've got and it works,

18:57

it's really effective, it's

19:00

really easy and it

19:02

means that like whilst we create the story,

19:05

Shun, Danny and I,

19:07

I always rely on James' opinion because he's

19:09

such a great taste maker and musician

19:11

and like songwriter producer

19:13

but he would give us the space to do that, he wasn't

19:15

kind of breathing down our necks you know so

19:17

it seemed to work like that whereas

19:20

I've worked with many other people and it's a totally different

19:22

way, I mean I'm trying to think with like Stuart,

19:25

it was a pretty similar thing where Stuart

19:27

never like gives up, he never settles,

19:29

he always thinks there's a better

19:31

version so he keeps going and

19:34

it's like being with like a teacher but

19:36

in a good way. And you mentioned using

19:38

voice memos in the writing process, there was long

19:40

distance sessions and stuff, is that also a way

19:43

you document your ideas at Take It? Do

19:45

you do that a lot?

19:46

I wish I could be that person, the only song

19:48

I think I've ever thought of,

19:51

the melody and the

19:53

words before I

19:55

entered the room was

19:58

a song on my first album called Sweet Talk. it's

20:00

all very much

20:01

reliant on the mood of the day.

20:04

I used to make myself feel bad about that because

20:06

I think I would have to come with a

20:08

poem or a key. And

20:12

actually, once I stopped that,

20:14

it was so much more productive. I

20:17

do believe in the magic of

20:20

the weather, the chemistry

20:22

in the... You just don't know. And you know when you

20:24

get that moment in a song where you're like, I don't know

20:26

how we just got to this, but

20:29

it feels good. We're going to keep going.

20:31

Maybe we've gone too far, but fuck it. And

20:34

you think I'm just forever searching for those moments,

20:36

really. And I believe that you can get them more

20:39

than once or twice in a day.

20:41

And I think that's what I felt like for a

20:43

very long time, that I was

20:45

kind of playing dress up as a songwriter.

20:48

And I probably was. I didn't have any

20:50

experience of songwriting

20:52

before I started kind

20:54

of doing dance vocal things.

20:56

Like that's when I first started. And

20:58

it felt really fraudulent.

21:00

And I guess I do have loads of experience. And yes,

21:02

I rely on so many other people to

21:04

help me bring my ideas out. But I definitely,

21:06

it's been really good to kind of feel like

21:09

that's the way it works for me. And it's probably

21:11

not the most traditional way.

21:13

And me being the artist, maybe

21:16

one expects that you are the person that

21:18

is in

21:19

charge. The records that I'm making

21:21

are completely me, but they rely

21:23

on so many other people and components. And

21:26

I love that togetherness. I love the

21:28

community that songwriting for me

21:31

allows me to have. So

21:50

would you say that the.

21:58

the writing

22:01

and the production that kind of happened simultaneously

22:03

then. Yeah, and you get that thing

22:05

where you get demoitis, totally. The

22:08

greatest thing about this record was

22:10

getting Coco Rocco on the brass.

22:13

They're an amazing brass group and

22:16

we asked them, James and I,

22:18

and they were up for it and that

22:21

elevated it. I mean, it gave a completely

22:23

different feeling to songs

22:25

where I thought that they were pretty much done and

22:27

then you added these brilliant brass arrangements

22:30

or string arrangements, some of them.

22:32

And that was where I felt like the production really

22:34

kind of elevated. Do you have

22:36

a kind of a brief for yourself in terms of the

22:38

types of songs that you want? I know you've

22:41

had a lot of upbeat songs in the past like Ooh

22:43

La La and songs like that, but will you think,

22:45

okay, for this album, we're definitely going to need a

22:47

beautiful people and we're going to need to free yourself. Do

22:49

you have a kind of a map of it in that

22:52

sense?

22:52

Yeah, I guess like for the last two

22:54

records, I've kind of thought of it in the format

22:56

of different moments on the dance floor

22:59

or different moments in a party

23:01

scenario, a romantic scenario,

23:04

a brief encounter. I don't know. For

23:06

me, it's like thematic. It's

23:08

almost like different rooms of a party. But

23:10

yeah, I was like, well, I've already got a free yourself,

23:13

so I don't need to make another one

23:15

of those. However, I did want

23:17

to still have my foot

23:19

in the club door and I felt

23:21

like free yourself would have stood out like a sore

23:23

thumb if it didn't have something to complement

23:26

it. So that's why I did a song like Free

23:28

Me Now. Otherwise free yourself

23:31

makes no sense on the record.

23:33

A lot of the other ones were kind of lots

23:35

more like groove led live

23:37

instruments. And I didn't want my fans

23:39

to think that I'd like turned my back on What's

23:41

Your Pleasure,

23:43

which was far more electronic.

23:46

And also I'm constantly thinking about how it's going

23:48

to work in a live show and how like the

23:50

new songs going to be able to work with the last records.

23:53

Yeah, it's almost like creating a set list.

23:55

And you mentioned Begin Again

23:57

already, which is one of my favourites on the record.

24:00

Thank you. And you know, that great

24:02

Latin vibe and obviously the Stevie Wonder influences

24:04

there. But what was the inspiration for that one lyrically?

24:07

That was the first one that we did on Zoom.

24:10

And I don't know whether

24:12

it was like subconscious like that. I work all night,

24:14

whether it was like just really saying what you

24:16

see. We were working into like one

24:18

o'clock in the

24:20

morning, two o'clock in the morning. And

24:22

I wanted it to feel like

24:24

there was jeopardy there and tension.

24:27

But that kind of release, I think

24:30

also like I am pulled in many different

24:32

ways. And me and James have had constant discussions

24:34

where he's like, I don't understand how you do

24:36

it all. And this is not me gloating at all. I

24:39

think he's sometimes slightly worried about me. And

24:41

is this my life beginning or end? It's kind of like

24:44

I'm doing a dance in so many different

24:46

places. There was a line in the pre,

24:49

why does all the purest love get filtered through machines?

24:51

I think it was like this sheer frustration of not

24:53

having human interaction

24:55

or touch with the people that I wanted

24:57

to make this music with, but also like

25:00

the result of being in a lockdown for a

25:03

year and a half. That like frustrations,

25:05

there's like a lot of frustration and tension

25:07

in the song. But I wanted the

25:10

melodies and the music

25:12

and the groove to feel like you could kind of almost dance

25:14

the stress and pain away. And

25:17

there was kind of a longing to get to South America.

25:19

I mean, I got to go last year to

25:22

play and it was better than I could have

25:24

ever imagined. But I think it was like a bit

25:26

of a love letter and this pull towards

25:29

this place that I had been to when I was 19 in

25:31

Brazil and

25:33

the beautiful people on Ipanema Beach and

25:35

like just this kind of romancing

25:37

of being in South America and making

25:39

music that could compliment that.

27:59

The kids have had to hear it quite a lot

28:02

when I've been checking mixes in the car

28:04

and they sing it and I'm proud of that one. I

28:06

hope it features in

28:08

people's special day. I've been really lucky. I've

28:10

had so many songs that feature in people's

28:12

first dances or walking down the aisle and I

28:14

always want one of those on the record. Even

28:16

if it never makes it in my head, it's the one that

28:19

I maybe have at mine. So yeah,

28:21

I love that one.

28:45

You mentioned about you only

28:47

came to songwriting when you started singing

28:49

on those dance tracks and stuff but I

28:51

just wondered when you were younger were you

28:53

encouraged to pursue your creativity by

28:55

your family and stuff?

28:56

Yeah, I think it was in a very different

28:59

way though. I didn't have

29:02

creative parents. My

29:04

mum's a social worker, my dad

29:06

was a journalist. There was

29:08

an encouragement of getting a good education.

29:12

But we were constantly exposed

29:14

by my mum to song music and

29:17

musical theatre and theatre and

29:19

art. It was like a really lovely

29:22

hobby that was never really

29:24

going to be taken seriously. I

29:26

remember

29:27

I started singing when I was about 10.

29:29

I mean, I did my first solo when it was about 10

29:32

at school, a Christmas carol

29:34

concert. It was very much other

29:36

people encouraging me rather than me being

29:38

like, mum, I want to go to Brit

29:40

school. I want to be a star.

29:43

It was like I'm a bit of a realist

29:45

and however I'm here now and it's

29:47

amazing. But it just didn't seem

29:50

plausible. But

29:51

it was very much like people encouraging

29:54

me to do it, whether it was selling

29:57

tapes of my solo at the

29:59

year six musical,

30:03

people were buying them to make

30:05

money from the school.

30:06

It was a way of me trying to get

30:08

a scholarship for my school. She can sing, so

30:10

let's shove her in to do a music scholarship,

30:12

even though we knew I wasn't gonna get

30:15

it. Maybe it will let her in if her maths is really

30:17

shit in the entry exam. And it worked.

30:19

Yeah, it was always kind of a bit of a vessel, but it

30:22

wasn't going to be a

30:25

career. But it wasn't

30:27

discouraged. My mum loved

30:29

that I sang. The creativity,

30:32

it just wasn't a

30:34

realistic

30:35

option. But then it was my mum that told

30:37

me to delay going to law

30:39

school to go and be backing singing for my

30:42

mate Jack

30:43

for a year. She was like, just try it, it'll be really fun

30:45

to tell your kids about. And then it just like

30:47

kind of kept on going after that. So it

30:50

was like enjoyed, but it wasn't like

30:52

focused.

30:54

So it was becoming more embedded in club

30:56

culture that kind of opened that door for you

30:59

then.

30:59

Yeah, I mean, I really

31:01

have to credit Katie B. I think that

31:04

she opened it up for so many

31:06

people. You see how like

31:08

dance

31:09

dominates the charts.

31:11

You know, Becky Hill winning two Brits. For

31:13

dance, like look, there's always been vocals

31:15

on dance music, but like I really feel

31:18

like Katie kind of brought

31:20

it back into like mainstream with

31:23

her album

31:23

with Magnetic Man. All

31:26

of that. It was like a real moment

31:28

to be a

31:29

London, UK dance

31:31

singer. There was so much great dance music

31:33

happening, bass music. Like there were so

31:35

many great labels. You know, my first song

31:37

that came out was with

31:39

Subtract on Numbers,

31:41

which is in Glasgow, a great independent

31:44

dance label. You know,

31:46

it was a great time to be a dance

31:48

vocalist, particularly one that

31:50

wasn't necessarily like belting. I was

31:53

like doing my kind of very hushed tones

31:56

thing and people were liking it. And so

31:58

it

31:58

was really lovely. It was where I felt comfortable

32:01

because it wasn't all eyes on me. I was helping

32:04

on a track, but it was featuring

32:07

me. So kind of pressure was off. And

32:09

also I used to go clubbing when I was younger,

32:11

so it felt authentic.

32:13

Strangers meet at highs.

32:17

No, I want you. Can't

32:20

you read the signs? I've

32:24

made blinds. Come

32:27

to me in your own time. I'll

32:30

be waiting for your touch. Want

32:33

you to make a move, but this feeling

32:36

needs a proof. Be brave.

32:38

And you've gone on to work with some incredible

32:40

songwriters over the years. You mentioned Benny

32:42

Blanco, and there's Ed Sheeran, of course,

32:44

and Julia Michaels. Did you learn

32:46

things about the craft from them? Are there any

32:49

particular approaches they take that you found interesting

32:52

and maybe incorporated into your own process?

32:55

Yeah. Like the

32:57

Benny thing, he's one of my best mates now.

33:01

I don't think we'll work together though anymore.

33:03

It's funny, I think what I got out of that more

33:05

than songwriting was a

33:07

friend for life. Don't get me wrong.

33:10

He taught me so much. It was slightly tough love,

33:12

I think,

33:13

with him. And writing

33:16

and writing with lots of people can cause

33:18

quite stressful scenarios, if

33:21

not just all sorted out upfront

33:24

when it comes to splits and things

33:26

like that. So

33:27

he taught me about being kind of generous

33:29

and fair, and I think that that's really something

33:32

that I've carried on and I really respect him

33:34

for. And

33:36

he taught me about reaching

33:39

for a hook, I think,

33:41

whether I managed to do that

33:43

very brilliantly with him or not.

33:45

I found it quite intimidating that world though,

33:48

and I don't think I was really necessarily ready. But

33:51

I'm so proud of the songs that we did together. But

33:54

yeah, I mean, he introduced me to Ed, and

33:56

Say You Love Me was like them leaving us well

33:58

alone. I mean, Ed is...

33:59

as we all know, he's unbelievable.

34:02

It just kind of pours out of him. And

34:05

I'm so impressed by

34:07

him. I wrote a song called Sam

34:11

with Ed. I probably wouldn't have been as

34:13

bold to say some of the lyrics

34:15

in that one, which actually did

34:17

really upset my father. And I didn't

34:20

want that to be the case. And kind

34:22

of Ed encouraged, because he was like, say

34:24

something and push yourself and scare yourself

34:27

a bit. And so I did

34:29

that and I scared some other people too. It

34:32

still kind of like hits me in the gut

34:34

when I hear that song, because it's

34:36

quite brave. What we said,

34:39

what I learned from Julia Michaels. Julia Michaels,

34:41

what I learned from Julia Michaels is like

34:43

she's got such tenderness and rawness

34:45

with her voice. She can't stand, I don't

34:48

know if it's still the same. She used to be incredibly

34:50

shy. You wouldn't be allowed in the room when she was doing a

34:52

take.

34:53

So she didn't want anyone to hear her. She'd kind

34:55

of do her thing. She'd do all her kind of genius stuff. She

34:58

didn't want anyone in there. Even

35:00

though it was all bloody brilliant. There's

35:02

kind of yearning with how Julia writes,

35:04

like a vulnerability that she's so brilliant at.

35:07

It's hard to suppose to her like

35:10

that. And then

35:12

I suppose to breathe so fast.

35:16

And they say the times are here

35:18

now. I

35:21

lost this, but it's supposed

35:23

to last. What's your

35:25

favorite part of the process? It's

35:28

funny because I used to be really scared of it. It would be

35:30

that thing of like first day of school vibes

35:32

where you go in and you be like, potentially working

35:34

with like four strangers. I don't know. I'm

35:36

going to have to prove myself. It's like an audition slash,

35:39

you know, when you get in your head and you're like, oh God, I

35:41

don't have that anymore because I

35:42

kind of know my worth now. And I feel confident

35:45

that I provide an important

35:47

part to my sessions of course. And

35:49

I think I found my right people to work with. But

35:52

I mean, that magic I talked about before,

35:54

that thing of like you thinking

35:57

you're going in there to write a certain song and

35:59

it's taking. in a completely different

36:02

direction and surprising

36:04

you and that feeling of like

36:07

being in the room with other people and

36:09

you all being so

36:11

creatively aligned, even

36:13

if it is just for like 10 minutes, it's

36:16

magic and it's so powerful

36:19

and it's such a privilege to

36:21

be able to do that and call it work. Do you

36:23

know what I mean? I love the

36:25

discussions that you have together when

36:27

you're not writing the song but you're getting to

36:29

know each other. I think that

36:32

there's so much openness with people in

36:34

the room because you

36:36

kind of all have to let your guard down to

36:39

trust each other. You never have more

36:41

kind of deep conversations with

36:43

strangers

36:45

as you do with songwriters. Do you know what I mean?

36:47

And there's a trust there. Yeah,

36:50

I think that's something we've learned from doing this podcast is just

36:52

how much of a, in terms of collaboration,

36:55

a trust exercise, songwriting

36:57

actually is because you're really laying yourself bare

36:59

often to perfect strangers.

37:01

Totally. I think when

37:04

I felt that I could lead better

37:06

was when my songwriting really took

37:08

shape and my identity as

37:10

a songwriter really grew. It

37:13

was a really great feeling but

37:15

sometimes it can be trust or it can be kind of compromise

37:18

and I believe there should be compromise in the room

37:21

but sometimes I compromise just

37:23

so that we'd have a nicer day together. Do you

37:26

know what I mean? And I regret

37:28

that because it was a lot of wasted days

37:31

of me trying to appease an ego. Wow.

37:34

Well,

37:34

that's really interesting because

37:36

when you look back and you've got a wildest moments

37:38

or champagne kisses or these songs that

37:40

have these great choruses, you think, well,

37:43

someone definitely didn't settle there. They've

37:45

pushed on and they've redrafted and they've gone for

37:48

the best they can get. So it's really interesting

37:50

to hear you say that, that there are wasted days

37:52

in there as well.

37:53

Oh yeah, but you won't hear the songs that are wasted

37:55

days. Well,

37:58

sometimes you may hear.

37:59

feel like you've got a certain set of standards

38:02

that you won't go below that you'll always be pushing

38:04

for the best version of something?

38:06

Yeah I don't think I'm a perfectionist.

38:09

Technically I mean like so I

38:12

have some help on my voice if there's

38:14

a really good take but I'm slightly below

38:16

I'll use some melodime I don't care whereas

38:19

David Kumu never let me use it he called it wide-tuning

38:22

and that I respect both camps okay as

38:24

long as I sound like myself

38:25

I don't mind a little bit of help

38:27

and on Hello Love there

38:29

was a note it was

38:33

in like the breakdown chorus and I say all

38:35

dressed up

38:36

I sounded like an alien and I said James if

38:38

you got tune on that and he went yeah

38:40

and

38:41

then we took it down and I still wasn't happy

38:44

with it in the mix and

38:46

I said Dan it's too bright

38:47

it's not right can you take it off I'm

38:50

out of tune on the note but I wanted it in

38:52

there because it felt like it told the story better

38:54

and I said look I know it's not perfect

38:56

but can we take it off and I'm so glad

38:58

I did that and I hear it now and yeah you're

39:01

out of tune but I don't know I believe

39:03

you more so yeah like perfection

39:05

and all of that I don't seek it always

39:08

but then I guess I

39:10

don't give up maybe

39:12

Dan Brett would say that I'm a fucking pain

39:15

in the ass because there were many mixes

39:17

but I kind of like the mistakes

39:20

I like them I think they tell stories that's

39:23

exactly what I was thinking you get a real a

39:25

sense of a person I think

39:27

when there's some humanity left in a performance

39:30

you know

39:30

yeah totally I came across

39:32

something interesting in me and you research

39:35

for this where you said that the massive

39:37

success of table manners

39:39

has actually proven a boost to

39:41

your creativity

39:43

could you expand on that a bit I

39:45

think in a really kind of simple

39:48

term I earn money with my podcast

39:51

and so it took the pressure of my

39:54

music career being my kind

39:56

of bread and butter it

39:58

allowed me to be more creative because I

40:00

didn't feel like I needed to do certain things to

40:03

be able to get me onto the radio, to then be able to

40:05

get me potentially a hit, to then

40:07

get you a better place in festivals, you

40:09

know what I mean? It allowed a free-ness

40:12

and a creativity.

40:14

Music, or maybe being an actor, all those

40:16

things, it's all about you. It's Jesse

40:18

Ware, I'm not a band. It's like

40:20

me, the focus is on me the whole time, what

40:22

I'm doing, and I find it

40:25

gross. Like,

40:27

not all the time, and don't get me wrong, there's

40:29

benefits as well, but it is

40:31

a bit gross. So I quite liked

40:34

the podcast being this thing where I was talking to

40:36

other people about them, and

40:38

their stories, and their memories, and

40:41

it's

40:41

also given me confidence. I think it showed

40:44

more of my personality, that

40:46

I hadn't had the opportunity to show,

40:48

maybe in interviews or

40:51

in my music, and it

40:53

kind of released me from this prison of

40:56

needing to be perceived as cool, or

40:58

mysterious, you

41:01

know what I mean? Because I'm not that, so yeah. Yeah,

41:05

it's lovely how that works, isn't it? I mean, we've been doing this podcast

41:07

for about 12 years now.

41:09

Nearly. Yeah, God, you are ahead of everybody.

41:12

But it's just so nice to do something for

41:14

passion, and to get lovely

41:16

things back from it, like getting to speak to

41:18

all these people that we admire so much, it's

41:21

such a pleasure, you know?

41:22

Yeah, and you do it, and

41:24

you still enjoy it. I still enjoy

41:26

my podcast. I still

41:29

learn things.

41:30

I don't know about you, but it doesn't feel like

41:32

work. Yeah, thank you so much for listening

41:35

to it. Albin's done that. It's not like the

41:37

worst job in the world, is it? No, it's all. Do

41:39

you know what I mean? And for me, it's like we're

41:41

cooking, and we're chatting. And then on the other

41:43

side, I get to go into a studio

41:46

with brilliantly talented people, and

41:48

make music, and dance around like a loon,

41:50

and go home and tell my kids about it, that

41:53

that was my

41:54

idea of work. I mean, my daughter

41:56

seems to think that she needs to have four jobs when she's

41:58

older, so she's like... I'm going to be a vet,

42:01

I'm going to be a makeup artist,

42:03

I'm going to be a dancer. I'm like, honestly,

42:06

just do the makeup. You'll earn more money than all the others.

42:09

No, she should do what she wants, of course.

42:11

Well, Jessie, we should let you go, but thank you

42:13

so much for taking the time to chat with us. And

42:16

we

42:16

wish you all the best

42:17

with the new record.

42:18

Thank you for letting me be on this podcast and

42:20

letting me talk about the process. It's fun to

42:22

reminisce, you know, it's like I'm

42:25

really proud of the record. So thanks. I really appreciate

42:27

you being such wonderful interviews. Thank

42:30

you very much. It's been a pleasure.

43:01

That was the