0:00

It's Sophia Franklin. You're listening to

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Sophia with an F. And

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the F is for phenomenal.

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This podcast is rated F.

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We have all these metaphorical doors in our lives

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This paragraph, I don't even know

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what I said. Thank you for

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existing. Yeah, that was very nice.

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Yeah,

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I was going through and I mean, I

4:54

don't want to take this away just right

4:56

off the bat. But I feel like I

4:58

need to tell this backstory to

5:01

kind of explain like how personal this

5:03

interview is for me. Okay. And

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how much pressure is on you to perform. Oh,

5:09

right. I'm

5:12

totally kidding, but I was having

5:17

this really, really dark day. One

5:19

that I haven't felt in a

5:21

really long time. Just

5:24

debilitating anxiety, feeling

5:26

really extremely depressed, thinking like

5:29

having an existential crisis kind

5:31

of. As you do. As

5:34

you do on Wednesday or whenever day. And

5:38

I couldn't even meditate, which is huge

5:40

for me. I

5:43

couldn't focus. I didn't want to leave my apartment.

5:45

Like it was a little bit me

5:48

on the floor just, you know, and my

5:50

phone on Do Not Deserve. And

5:53

finally, later on in the day, I

5:56

forced myself to go for a walk. I tried to do

5:58

like a few meditations. meditations, I

6:00

couldn't like, it was just, I

6:02

could not focus. And

6:05

then I'm looking up at the waking

6:07

up app, which I use to meditate

6:09

and I see this series titled

6:14

Resilience. And I'm like,

6:16

that sounds like some shit I could

6:18

use right now. Some resilience. Yeah. So

6:21

I press play and I

6:23

hear this young woman very

6:26

captivating and I just

6:28

completely was drawn into it. And

6:32

then it just, it completely

6:35

did a 180 and I

6:37

became obsessed with this series.

6:40

It was silly, but I re listened

6:43

to this series like

6:46

multiple times. And

6:49

so I want to say thank you for that

6:51

first and foremost. Just so you know, like that

6:53

means a lot to me. And

6:55

I feel I'm really proud of that

6:57

series because I mean, I'm

6:59

really grateful to Sam Harris for giving me

7:01

the opportunity. Not a lot

7:04

of people, when they talk to me

7:06

about my experience, they typically

7:08

want to do it from a

7:10

sort of true crime lens. And

7:13

it's nice to talk about the things that

7:15

are the way that I experience it, which

7:17

is processing trauma. And he

7:20

gave me this opportunity to not

7:22

just be someone who is a

7:24

traumatized person, but someone who has

7:28

learned from processing and has some

7:31

wisdom to offer that is applicable

7:33

to anybody's life. I

7:35

think one of the big traumas of wrongful conviction

7:37

is feeling like you're isolated from the rest of

7:39

humanity and you need the sense that no one

7:42

could understand you. And I've

7:44

resisted that impulse

7:46

for a long time. Like even people who come up

7:48

to me and say, oh, I can never understand what

7:50

you went through. And it's like, I know that they

7:52

mean well by that, but I want to say, no,

7:55

we all have worst experiences of our lives.

7:57

We all go through things, traumas that we

7:59

know. needs to unpack and process

8:01

and grow from. And

8:03

the way that I did it is a way

8:05

that anybody can do it. Having

8:08

the opportunity to really focus on that

8:10

journey and not the journey of being

8:12

traumatized, the journey of finding

8:14

meaning and purpose and

8:16

resilience through a process was really gratifying.

8:18

And then to hear that it came

8:21

to you in the right moment, that's

8:24

very special and magical for me.

8:26

And I'm not a magical person,

8:28

but knowing that it arrived at

8:31

somebody's doorstep when they really needed

8:33

it is very, very healing for

8:35

me. Cause I feel like I needed

8:37

it when I was going through it. And

8:39

so- Yeah. Can we start crying

8:42

right now? Oh my God. You're so

8:44

racist. Because, because,

8:46

because it

8:49

felt magical to me. I can tell

8:51

you the exact moment where I was

8:53

standing when it hit me. And

8:57

I don't know why I

8:59

feel this emotional this early on, but

9:02

it just, it

9:04

changed me in a lot of

9:06

ways and changed how I process

9:08

things. And again, thank you. But

9:10

also I think what you pointed out is

9:14

how people like to say, well, they

9:16

can't really relate to your story. And

9:18

people will say that to me too. And

9:20

people will probably say it to everyone, right? We're

9:23

all having different struggles, but what

9:26

you talk about within the

9:28

series is applicable to everyone.

9:31

So kind of short

9:33

of telling people to go listen to

9:35

it. Which they should.

9:37

Which they absolutely should. And resilience on

9:40

the waking up app and can they

9:42

access it anywhere else? No,

9:44

right now it lives on the waking up

9:46

app. And, but you can subscribe to the

9:48

waking up app. It's very affordable or if

9:50

you can't afford it, you can always reach

9:53

out to waking up and ask for a

9:55

free subscription. They really try

9:57

to make it as accessible as possible.

9:59

Anyone I... I think they're giving it for

10:01

free to people who are in prison, like

10:03

that kind of thing. Yeah, I think

10:05

there's like, you got a free month,

10:07

if not that a free week, and

10:10

there you go. So let's

10:12

just jump right into this. I

10:14

think one of the major, major

10:16

themes was stories

10:20

slash narratives that we

10:22

tell ourselves that

10:25

society tells us, that our

10:27

parents put around us,

10:30

that our friends tell us. And

10:34

you said something that is just,

10:37

put it in your bio, but don't actually put

10:39

it in your bio because that'd be really weird

10:41

in your dating profile or Instagram,

10:44

but you said, actively

10:46

choosing what story we tell

10:48

ourselves is the first

10:51

step in building resilience. I

10:54

mean, like drop, I mean, that's insane.

10:56

So can you

10:58

kind of talk about just

11:01

narrative and stories in general?

11:04

Yeah, and I think I'm going to

11:07

have to build around that

11:10

abstract idea by speaking

11:13

very specifically of

11:16

how I've seen it. So like, I think

11:18

I'm sort of unusual in the philosophy department

11:20

where I've come

11:23

to philosophy through direct

11:25

observation of experience, as

11:28

opposed to going

11:30

to school and learning about a lot of philosophy

11:32

and then seeing it in everyday

11:35

life. So the everyday life

11:37

that got me to understand about the

11:39

stories that we tell each other really

11:42

arose while I

11:44

was in the prison environment. And I saw the

11:47

different kinds of stories that

11:49

prisoners were telling themselves about

11:52

why they were in there. And what this

11:54

experience meant. And

11:58

the predominant... story that

12:00

I saw from a lot

12:03

of people was a religious story. They

12:05

were religious and they

12:08

they had this idea that even

12:11

though prison was a place

12:13

of suffering, it

12:15

was where they were meant to be according

12:19

to God's will and

12:21

that was comforting either because

12:24

it meant that God

12:27

had a plan and they were supposed to get

12:29

something from this experience that was then going

12:31

to carry them forward in their life Or

12:35

they were in there because this was actually

12:37

safer for them This was a better experience

12:39

for them than some other terrible experience that

12:41

they could have been experiencing But God saved

12:44

them by putting them in a safe place

12:46

or a safer place than what they might

12:48

have been through and you know

12:50

a lot of these women were People

12:53

who had been raised in deep

12:55

poverty had suffered a ton of

12:58

abuse and in a way Prison

13:00

was a safer place for

13:03

them. It wasn't it's not safe

13:05

but it is a place where there's only

13:07

women around you and so That

13:11

kind of violence is not going to be the

13:13

kind of violence They might have experienced at the

13:15

hands of men was not something they were having

13:17

to deal with in a in a female only

13:19

environment And a lot of

13:21

them were you know being sex trafficked They

13:24

were there on the streets every night And

13:26

so the things that they were facing in

13:28

their lives were very scary And

13:31

so it was it was

13:33

comforting to them this story They

13:35

were telling themselves about how God

13:38

was giving them this experience so that

13:40

they could be safe or that they

13:42

so they could grow and as a

13:44

non believer

13:46

in God as an atheist I Didn't

13:51

believe that but I observed that

13:53

and I saw how Comforting

13:56

it how it helped them to get

13:58

through. Sen

14:01

Kan, some of them sentenced to ten

14:04

twenty years in prison. Like how they

14:06

were able to read frame the story

14:08

that they are telling themselves about what

14:10

they were doing here and what it

14:13

meant for their life in a productive

14:15

way and I thought that was fascinating

14:17

Us is that is beyond sauce Me

14:20

being yes And then the question for

14:22

me became well what does this experience

14:24

mean to me and is it necessary

14:27

for me to feel like. I'm

14:29

just going through a traumatic thing that's

14:32

gonna destroy me as saw a lot

14:34

of people telling them. That.

14:36

Says had telling themselves that story. I saw

14:38

lot of people just medicating themselves into com

14:41

As in order to get through the fact

14:43

that they were losing years of their life

14:45

to bet that they were expecting to spend

14:47

outside of prison. And so I got into

14:50

this place of like you know why I

14:52

shouldn't be here. Are

14:55

Am and it's not going to

14:57

serve me to think about how

14:59

I should be living some other

15:01

life right now. There is no.

15:03

no one should be living any

15:05

kind of life. We are living

15:07

the life that we have. And

15:09

so given that this is my

15:12

life and these are the circumstances

15:14

of my life, what can I

15:16

do with that that makes me

15:18

feel not utterly helpless to the

15:20

experience? How can I be an

15:22

agent's within my own life? And

15:25

and recognize the power that I

15:27

do have. However limited it is

15:29

and I was very limited. I

15:32

had very little control over most

15:34

aspects of my life, but I

15:36

did have control over the things

15:39

that mattered and that included my

15:41

mindset. I included how I spent

15:44

my time and my and I

15:46

was able to very slowly and

15:48

humbly take steps to make a

15:51

day worth living. and it just.

15:54

Once you go through that

15:56

experience suddenly. Any day

15:58

can be made. worth living

16:01

in the smallest little way and all it takes is a

16:03

day and then you get to the next day and you

16:05

feel something else and something else is going to happen.

16:08

You don't know what's going to happen. I

16:10

remember you talking about that and what

16:12

a rare situation

16:15

we learn in

16:17

meditation to accept

16:20

things as they are because

16:22

we're constantly, I know me for

16:24

example, I have one uncomfortable feeling

16:26

and I'm trying to shut it

16:28

down, numb it, fix it and

16:31

meditation really teaches you to

16:33

accept where you are and

16:37

you and your example, like

16:39

you had to quite literally accept

16:41

where I am in all

16:44

aspects of it. Yes. Yeah.

16:47

And in the truest form, the deepest form

16:49

of it. In a

16:51

weird way, you can

16:54

look at it this way if you

16:56

want, in a weird way, I was

16:59

lucky to have had this experience because

17:01

I had no choice but to accept.

17:03

I can't open that door. I

17:06

am literally trapped. So

17:08

it doesn't matter if I accept

17:10

it or don't accept it, it is what it

17:12

is. And I think

17:15

we, for those of us

17:17

who have not had that really

17:22

distinct, this door is a

17:25

locked door. We have all

17:27

these metaphorical doors in our lives that we feel

17:29

like we have control over or we should have

17:31

control over. And I

17:33

think we trick ourselves into

17:36

feeling responsible for

17:38

whether or not someone opens a door

17:41

for us and that's a trick. It's

17:43

a way that we make ourselves unnecessarily

17:45

miserable. Is hoping that someone

17:47

else will open this door for us. Or

17:51

thinking that we should be living a life

17:53

that we're not living. And I

17:56

use door in a truly metaphorical sense.

17:58

Like this is a life right if our the

18:01

life we're living is this room and the life

18:03

we should be living is in the Room next

18:05

door and all it takes is opening this door

18:07

to get in there That

18:10

sense that we are that close and

18:12

that if only I could convince this

18:14

person to feel a different way Or

18:17

if only I could get past this

18:19

obstacle. I'm gonna live the life that

18:21

I should be living. It's this unnecessary

18:25

Struggle that is not really

18:27

grounding you in the reality

18:29

and in the opportunity of

18:31

your current present reality that

18:34

you have And

18:36

I you know, there's this paradox that comes with accepting

18:38

things the way they are I can't tell you the

18:40

number of times I've had people say

18:42

to me, but I don't I shouldn't you

18:45

know accept an injustice right

18:47

like Accepting they interpret

18:50

accepting an injustice

18:53

as like Accelerating it and saying well,

18:55

it's not as bad or you know,

18:57

it's okay status quo and it's Accepting

19:00

reality the way it is does not mean Maintaining

19:03

the status quo and means having

19:05

a very clear vision of what

19:08

your reality is and knowing how

19:10

you can effectively act upon it

19:13

and not tricking yourself into thinking

19:15

that You can

19:17

act upon a reality that doesn't exist,

19:19

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knowing what you can control and

23:47

is really taking ownership of? Ah

23:50

yes and the rest You'd you

23:52

have to accept it to be

23:54

able to try to let it

23:57

go to the you can move

23:59

forward. Right and you can do

24:01

the things that you can actually do.

24:03

Mm-hmm That's that like that unnecessary suffering

24:05

comes from Wanting to do

24:07

things that you can't actually do Yeah And

24:09

in the same way that you wouldn't like

24:11

if someone were to say to you I'm

24:14

so depressed that I can't Teleport

24:17

you would be like well Why do

24:19

you why are you thinking like why are you making

24:21

yourself miserable over an odd a thing that you obviously?

24:24

Can't do It's that

24:26

way like if you try to pose it that

24:28

way like we just have to accept the reality

24:31

that we can't teleport Mm-hmm do the best we

24:33

can with the reality that we have. Yeah That

24:36

leads me to this question that I

24:38

had for you and I thought about

24:41

this over and over and over Well,

24:45

I guess I was more to do with kind of

24:47

the stories but once we come

24:50

To the realization that we can

24:53

control what we can control

24:55

and we have to accept or really let

24:57

go of the rest How

25:00

do we kind of

25:02

start living

25:05

our New narrative

25:07

and our new story this

25:10

new story in this new narrative. I think

25:12

you were basically explaining it We're living a

25:14

narrative. We are all the protagonists of our

25:16

own life And we all and I

25:18

think a lot of us tend to Based

25:21

upon the inputs that we've received as children

25:23

and through our families and from society we

25:26

sort of get an idea of what our

25:28

life should be and that

25:30

is the story of our life that we're

25:32

telling ourselves that we are the protagonist of

25:35

and when our Story like

25:37

doesn't match up with reality Then

25:40

we start experiencing at best cognitive

25:42

dissonance and at worst like utter

25:45

depression and despair And

25:47

especially when you are working so hard

25:49

to move in one direction and your

25:51

life is just taking a completely different

25:53

direction And it feels like no matter

25:55

what you do. You can't go back to

25:57

that story that you wanted to be living then

26:01

what you can experience is something

26:03

called narrative foreclosure. When you

26:05

feel like you have you are utterly powerless in

26:07

your own life because you think you should be

26:09

going this way and you're going this way. And

26:12

the realization that

26:15

I had was

26:17

this direction of life that I

26:19

thought I was going that I should be

26:21

living, not only is it

26:26

not happening right now, it actually never

26:28

existed in the first place. Right. Like

26:30

this was just an idea of what

26:33

I thought life would be and

26:36

what it would mean and who I was going

26:38

to be in the world. And

26:40

I'm grieving a thing

26:42

that doesn't even exist.

26:45

And that grief while

26:48

grieving is good and important. It's

26:50

also you don't want that to

26:52

be the only way that you're

26:54

experiencing reality because in the meantime,

26:57

there is an odd your your life

26:59

is still moving in this direction and

27:01

there is opportunity in that direction too.

27:04

You're just not seeing it because you're

27:06

seeing how it doesn't match up with the

27:08

way that you want it to be going.

27:11

Yeah. Narrative

27:13

foreclosure. Would

27:15

you compare that to how some

27:17

people talk about rock bottom? Maybe

27:22

yeah, I mean, I'm

27:24

sense. I think for me recently,

27:26

I was just

27:29

feeling a lot of burnout and

27:32

the past few months,

27:35

I felt like a

27:37

hamster on the hamster wheel and I was just

27:39

going. And I

27:42

had to really look at

27:44

why and that's when

27:46

I realized my narrative foreclosure.

27:48

Yes. Yeah. Right. I

27:50

think I'm supposed to be here. I'm

27:53

over here. Do I

27:55

even really want to be over here? Is this

27:57

actually what I want to do? Yes, Sam. And

28:00

then you have to start asking yourself the

28:02

really hard questions, right? But

28:04

really empowering ones. Yes. So

28:07

once you reach this narrative foreclosure, and I

28:09

hope I didn't butcher it by comparing it

28:11

to rock bottom. No, no, I think that's

28:14

a really, that's

28:16

an important comparison. I've not thought about

28:18

it to myself that way because I'm,

28:21

but because that's, it's

28:23

a terminology that a lot of times

28:26

belongs in places like addiction culture. And

28:28

the thing you imagine when

28:30

you think of rock bottom is like you're

28:33

high and in a ditch somewhere. Yeah, but

28:36

like, but that may, that like that,

28:39

if you could be high and in

28:41

a ditch metaphorically, in your own life,

28:44

you know, like if that's what it feels

28:46

like, you just sort of inevitably ended up

28:49

in this ditch and you have nowhere to

28:51

go and nothing to do. And

28:53

you've lost everything, lost any sense of

28:56

agency in your own life. Like that

28:58

is the narrative foreclosure when you are

29:00

not the author of your own experience.

29:02

When you are not even really the

29:04

protagonist, sorry, protagonist anymore.

29:07

You're just like a pawn of

29:10

the universe and it's moving

29:12

you and dumping you. And

29:14

that's that feeling that you

29:16

have no power over your own

29:18

life. And it's this

29:21

paradoxical thing of

29:23

realizing your limitations gives

29:26

you the ability to work within

29:29

those limitations and regain that sense

29:31

of power and find weird

29:33

opportunities in what previously felt

29:36

like an impossibly limited

29:39

existence. Can you give me an

29:41

example of that? 100% because I know

29:44

that was very abstract. The

29:46

thing that I have really struggled

29:48

and grappled with was

29:50

the idea that through

29:53

no fault of my own, through no doing of

29:55

my own, I will forever be

29:57

known for the world. worst

30:00

experience of my life. I

30:02

am forever the girl who was

30:04

accused of murder. And if

30:08

I just approached it with a mindset of

30:10

like, that's not fair, that's not what it

30:12

should be, I am going

30:14

to feel, and I have felt, incredibly

30:17

limited by that experience.

30:21

I've told, you know, I've had that,

30:23

I've made the comparison of like, there's

30:25

literally nothing I can possibly do or

30:27

achieve in my life that will ever

30:29

make it so that the person I

30:31

come across from and they hear, oh,

30:33

you're Amanda Knox, they won't think of

30:35

girl accused of murder. I'd have to

30:37

cure cancer on the moon, and

30:41

win American Idol at the same time for

30:43

somebody to be like, oh, that's not the

30:45

girl accused of murder. And like, so in

30:47

a way, I felt so utterly helpless

30:50

to that narrative. Until

30:54

I realized that just accepting

30:57

that reality, opens

31:00

up opportunities that

31:02

I didn't really consider or

31:06

imagine at the time where I was

31:08

resisting that reality. This conversation

31:11

is an opportunity that

31:13

has arisen because of

31:15

that limitation in my life. And

31:18

this is a valuable experience for me,

31:21

and I'm so grateful that it's valuable to you.

31:23

Like, I'd never anticipated in

31:25

my life that I would be sitting across

31:27

from someone who would tell me I was

31:29

in rock bottom, and then I heard you

31:31

talk about your experience, and it helped me

31:33

through it. Like, that was not who I

31:36

imagined I would be in my life, but

31:39

accepting that reality has allowed

31:41

me to find space and

31:43

power and agency in the

31:45

opportunity of that limitation. The

31:49

like mental clarity

31:52

and just how

31:54

powerful your mind is, is

31:58

like how vulnerable you are. How long did it

32:00

take you to get here? Hmm.

32:07

So I feel like

32:10

the answer to that is a little complicated. I'm like,

32:12

ah. It's

32:14

not like there was like the one moment

32:16

where it flipped a switch. I

32:23

feel like I was lucky enough to be

32:25

predisposed to,

32:30

a number of different feelings in

32:32

my life that have served me

32:34

in processing my experience.

32:38

What do I mean by that? I

32:41

am someone who's prone to sadness, not

32:43

anger. I

32:45

feel angry, like I feel

32:48

that feeling, but it's not when

32:50

something happens to me that's traumatic, the

32:52

predominant feeling that I feel is

32:55

sadness, not anger. And

32:58

so that place of sadness I

33:00

feel was one in which it

33:06

allowed me the possibility of being

33:08

more curious about my

33:10

experience than I

33:13

would have been were I angry. If

33:15

I'm angry, I'm resisting. If

33:18

I'm sad, I'm accepting. And that acceptance

33:20

allows me to find that space and

33:22

to have that compassion for myself that

33:24

I wouldn't otherwise have if I was

33:26

just angry about the situation. And

33:29

I saw a lot of people grappling

33:32

with anger in prison and it was

33:34

not serving them well. It was debilitating

33:36

ultimately. And so I really, as

33:39

vulnerable as I felt, I felt like I

33:41

could not afford to be angry. So

33:44

I allowed myself to process

33:46

that trauma in action in

33:49

real time with sadness. And

33:54

I feel lucky that that came easily to me, that

33:57

came naturally to me. Similarly,

34:00

Similarly, I think I'm very naturally

34:02

a, I resist

34:06

black and white thinking. I

34:09

don't, I don't even

34:11

believe in good and evil necessarily. I

34:14

just, I just know that some things

34:16

hurt and some things feel good. And

34:19

I would even then sometimes we don't

34:21

really know maybe they do both. Yeah.

34:24

Like I know that like in my

34:26

life, I hope

34:28

that how people experience

34:30

me is through pleasure and

34:33

through healing and not through harm. And so

34:35

that is how I guide

34:37

myself in my life. And

34:39

watching as people who

34:42

were harming me were convincing themselves that

34:44

they were doing the right thing led

34:47

me to a space of deep

34:49

curiosity about how our minds work

34:52

and how it is that people

34:54

convince themselves that in the harming

34:56

of a person, they're the good

34:58

guys. And it's because

35:01

we believe in a lot of ideas about good

35:03

and evil. And it's because we have narratives that

35:05

we're telling ourselves about who we are and

35:07

what our role in the world is and whether

35:09

or not we can make a big mistake

35:11

that would lead to innocent people suffering. And

35:14

seeing the cognitive biases that

35:17

were at play in my

35:19

own case granted

35:21

me access to the human

35:23

mind that I also wouldn't

35:25

otherwise have had. And

35:28

I was deeply curious about

35:30

it and predisposed to having,

35:33

again, compassion for how

35:35

people's minds

35:38

were betraying them rather than

35:41

judging them for it. Yeah,

35:44

necessarily. The biases

35:46

is something I definitely

35:49

want to touch on,

35:51

specifically the anchoring bias. But

35:55

before we jump into that, you

35:57

talk about your worst fear. was

36:01

that for the rest of your life, you

36:04

are basically going to be tied and

36:07

perceived as this thing that happened to

36:09

you. And so how are

36:12

you able to kind of rewrite

36:15

your own story, create

36:18

your own narrative that aligns

36:20

with your values while

36:24

not discrediting or

36:27

kind of ignoring or trying to block

36:30

out or block out your

36:32

past? Because I think that's where

36:34

I ran into some issues, you

36:36

know? Yeah, no, I hear you and I

36:39

think that that goes

36:41

again to that sense of narrative

36:43

foreclosure that not only has your

36:45

past been written for you but

36:47

also your future because your future

36:49

pre-determines, or sorry, your past pre-determines

36:51

your future. So in

36:54

my case, one might say, okay, wrongly

36:56

convicted, even if you are not in

36:58

this space of trying to determine whether

37:00

or not I'm guilty or not, even

37:03

if it's accepted, like I was wrongly

37:05

convicted, I spent years in prison for a

37:07

crime I didn't commit, it made international

37:09

news for nearly a decade, like

37:12

that is a traumatized person and

37:15

a traumatized person operates

37:18

in the world in according to

37:20

their trauma and therefore is going

37:22

to live a certain kind of

37:25

life. And I

37:28

didn't like the story that was being

37:31

sort of laid out before me as

37:34

what my life was going to

37:36

be as a result of this traumatic

37:38

experience. And I mean,

37:40

again, you can look at this as a

37:44

blessing and a curse, but like the blessing

37:46

part of my, the worst

37:48

experience of my life being

37:51

so public is that I

37:53

could never lie to myself and say,

37:55

I'm just going to pretend

37:58

this didn't happen. And

38:01

like change my name and

38:03

and and just move on as

38:05

if it didn't happen I

38:14

Don't know how many times I can give

38:16

you guys a heads up, but

38:19

we are hitting the road

38:21

this summer Maybe

38:23

not the road Definitely the

38:25

tarmac Italy Spain South

38:27

Africa Timbuktu wherever we want

38:30

to go We're going only

38:32

this time we will be

38:35

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38:37

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40:22

And I knew that there was

40:24

no escaping it. And

40:28

as a result, it

40:30

forced me to say, if I

40:33

don't like the story that is

40:35

being told about what, how

40:38

I'm going to be traumatized for the rest of my life

40:40

and triggered and, and, and sort

40:42

of debilitated by this existent, this

40:44

experience, instead, I'm going to try

40:46

to imagine a life where

40:50

I'm not debilitated, I am empowered by

40:52

this experience. And that's

40:54

a story that I can drive

40:56

towards. That is a story that

40:58

gives me actionable choices.

41:01

And, and, and

41:04

offers me opportunities that I

41:06

can embrace. Yes. That's where

41:08

the, that's the switch is

41:10

like, is this something that

41:12

that limits my choices or

41:14

offers me opportunities. And

41:16

I think I mentioned in the

41:19

series, my relationship with the

41:22

prison chaplain, who was a very good friend

41:24

of mine. And he

41:27

said something to me that really stuck with

41:29

me, which was when

41:32

you pray to God for strength, he

41:34

doesn't give you strength, he gives

41:37

you the opportunity to be strong.

41:40

And so looked through that lens,

41:42

you know, take away the God part

41:44

out of it. But if

41:47

there is an opportunity that is,

41:49

that is rife with struggle

41:52

and, and obstacles in your

41:54

path, if you

41:57

can surmount them, what

41:59

can it say? about you as a person. And

42:02

also, what can you do that pushes

42:05

against that narrative? So

42:10

a good example of this is

42:12

I was

42:16

told a lot that

42:21

there wasn't ever really hope of the

42:24

truth. I was told that there was a mistake that

42:26

was made. And that I'm a real human being

42:35

and not this caricature of a person. And

42:38

I didn't like being told that

42:40

that was impossible. Maybe this is

42:42

just me being stubborn. But like

42:44

when people tell me that something's

42:46

impossible, I'm like, until

42:49

I do it. I'm going to do it

42:51

right now. So I'm going to go

42:57

and like talk to my

42:59

prosecutor. And I did. And I talk

43:01

a little bit about that. I don't go into detail. I

43:04

eventually am going to go into detail about

43:06

what that experience was like. But like having

43:09

people tell me, now you're never

43:11

going to get through to him. I

43:13

was like, just watch me. Like

43:16

you tell me that that's a closed door.

43:18

We'll see. I'm going to go do it.

43:20

We'll see. It's like a little kid like,

43:22

do not press the red button. Yeah,

43:27

I'm going to do it. There's a little

43:29

something of that in there because I don't

43:31

like being told that I'm limited by my

43:33

life. I try to push back

43:35

against that. And in fact, I'm

43:37

not saying that I'm, you know, striving

43:40

towards spontaneously

43:43

teleporting, right? But

43:45

like when it comes to what, what

43:48

I am capable of, no

43:51

one can stop me from being kind

43:53

to someone. Yeah, no one can stop

43:55

me from reaching out

43:57

with compassion to someone like

44:00

There's actually nothing stopping me. So

44:02

why not do it and why

44:04

not allow that Be

44:06

the thing that really defines who I

44:09

am in this experience instead

44:11

of the terrible thing that happened. Yeah, it

44:14

gets tricky when

44:18

it's such a big part of

44:20

your story and it also Lended

44:23

itself to the powerhouse

44:25

right that you are now and

44:29

Lend it itself to all of this wisdom

44:32

and knowledge you have to share But

44:35

then you also feel like you have to talk

44:37

about it So then you're

44:39

also like keeping it fresh in the minds

44:41

of people and by the way, I'm totally

44:43

projecting right now My

44:48

own shit where I get so

44:50

much conflicting feedback

44:53

where it's like You

44:55

know what you're seen as an underdog

44:58

That's a great place to be and

45:00

just stay there and like don't talk

45:02

about The past and

45:05

really own this new

45:08

thing and where you are now but

45:11

also you got to kind of

45:13

talk about it because it you

45:16

know is So much of you

45:18

and it's one of who you are

45:20

now, right? I mean the way

45:22

that I look at it is Maybe

45:25

it's the way you talk about it. That's the way you

45:27

talk about it. It's the way you think about it It's

45:31

the way that you You

45:34

know that this Who

45:37

you are what you experienced in the past

45:39

is not static it you are continuing to

45:41

grow It's not like you move away from

45:43

it. You grow out of it emerge

45:47

from the experiences that you've had in

45:49

your past and so I I

45:53

have come to a place of no

45:56

longer feeling like My

45:58

past is this ball and shame that

46:01

I'm dragging around with me is instead

46:03

this deep

46:06

dank mulch that I am

46:08

emerging from. And

46:11

because of the richness of that,

46:14

and the darkness of that experience,

46:16

it makes it all the

46:18

more extraordinary,

46:21

even to me, that I

46:24

have emerged the way that I have. And

46:26

I feel really good about that. It

46:29

was not guaranteed that I would emerge the

46:31

way that I am today. I could have

46:34

emerged bitter and

46:36

rageful and depressed

46:39

and lying on the floor and not

46:41

wanting to leave my apartment. And I've

46:43

had moments like that. I've had moments

46:45

where I felt utterly trapped and

46:48

there's nothing I can do that will ever matter.

46:52

And that's because I got trapped

46:55

in that idea that our lives are

46:57

static. There's

47:01

nothing inherently good or

47:03

bad about my past. It's kind of irrelevant when

47:05

it comes to the present and when it comes

47:07

to the future. You decide in this moment what

47:10

it means and if it's going to debilitate you

47:12

or empower you. And so

47:14

I just chose to be empowered by it.

47:18

And that sounds so cheesy.

47:21

Just choose. But at a certain point it

47:23

is. It comes down to that. Just choose.

47:26

Do you want to be debilitated

47:28

or do you want to be empowered by it?

47:30

That does not mean that your triggers go away.

47:33

That does not mean that your pain goes away.

47:35

That does not mean that your fears go away.

47:37

But you still can

47:40

go through your life taking

47:43

ownership of all of it. And

47:47

the ownership piece was

47:50

like I swear to

47:52

God it changed my brain

47:54

forever when I had

47:56

brain surgery without the

47:58

funds. The scalpel. I

48:01

don't need to do psychedelics, which I still

48:03

am planning on doing, by the way. Yes,

48:05

pro. I'm very pro. You are

48:07

pro, okay. I was going to

48:09

do like the Hoffman process or something like that, and

48:11

I'm like, I don't know what that is. It's

48:14

like I'm in a butcher it,

48:17

but it's kind of like a retreat that you do

48:19

with a bunch of other

48:21

people, and they take your phone, and I've

48:23

heard it's incredible. But I

48:25

really want to dive into this world of

48:27

psychedelics. This is also coming from the

48:29

girl who I smoked

48:32

weed a lot, and every single

48:34

time I want to

48:36

go to the emergency room. But this is

48:38

also the girl who's tried really hard drugs

48:40

and has no issue with them. Got

48:43

it. But weed has never

48:45

been one of my drugs

48:47

that I can do. Well

48:49

if you want, Chris

48:51

and I on Labyrinth did this

48:54

big series about psychedelics and talking

48:56

to a lot of different people in the field, even

48:59

talking to Sam Harris. And I

49:01

think the big takeaway

49:03

that I took is that

49:06

psychedelics really can

49:08

help very quickly put

49:12

you in a place of the

49:15

healing potential. But it's really

49:17

on you to integrate that experience

49:19

in a meaningful way into your

49:22

life. And that's where

49:24

a group setting that

49:26

prolongs itself many days after

49:28

the psychedelic experience can really come

49:30

in handy. Because the more

49:32

time that you spend with

49:35

processing that profound experience and

49:37

integrating it into your sense

49:40

of lifestyle, the

49:42

better you're able to really hang

49:45

on to those positive effects. Interesting.

49:48

I for some reason thought it was legal. In

49:52

New York, you can come to

49:54

Oregon where it's very, very legal

49:56

and to Washington where it's basically

49:58

legal. I'm

50:01

like, no one cares. There's

50:03

like shamans, and I don't even

50:05

want to call them that, but

50:07

like holistic doctors, you

50:09

know, that I know that now

50:12

I understand I'm

50:14

going to have to pursue because I don't

50:16

know what world I was living in.

50:19

I keep seeing ads for ketamine therapy

50:21

and like, hey, at home ketamine

50:24

therapy, we just stopped by. So

50:27

I was thinking, just go to the pharmacist

50:29

and be like, oh, can I have one

50:31

dose of ketamine, please? I

50:34

swear to God, these ads are targeted. At

50:38

home ketamine therapy, like it's just

50:40

so easy. And I'm like, okay,

50:42

well, they do that for ketamine. I'm

50:45

sure they do that for, you know,

50:47

mushrooms. They don't

50:49

know. I checked in with my doctor.

50:51

They don't do it like that. I

50:55

will do it with someone I trust

50:57

and I have like a few sources,

51:00

but you're saying it's legal in Oregon.

51:02

Yes. So you can go to like

51:04

a doctor doctor. You can go to

51:06

a doctor, you can go to a

51:09

therapist specialist who is

51:11

trained in this specific

51:13

therapeutic way to be

51:15

there with you while you're present, but also to

51:18

help you integrate. So

51:20

they are learned, the people who organized

51:23

this legalization effort really

51:26

in Oregon have really, really been

51:28

very mindful about how to

51:30

do this in a way that's not going to

51:34

result in backlash the way that

51:36

weed legalization happened, where like weed

51:38

legalization happened and then a whole

51:40

bunch of people have

51:43

been profiting off of it at the

51:45

expense of entire communities that were vilified

51:48

about it. So like they are

51:50

trying to make it accessible. They are

51:52

trying to make it respectful

51:56

of the cultures

51:58

that they're... deriving their knowledge

52:01

from. And

52:04

they're really trying to train people to be

52:09

also knowledgeable about

52:12

how the mind works, not just spiritual

52:14

about it, like really looking

52:16

at the full ways that a human

52:19

being spiritually, physically,

52:21

is impacted by the chemical.

52:24

And treating that experience with

52:26

the respect that it deserves.

52:30

So I'm going to Oregon then. Yes,

52:32

go to Oregon. I can connect

52:34

you with the people. And that sounds exactly

52:37

like what I want. And I'm

52:40

not discrediting these people

52:42

that, you know, are

52:45

usually the ones who are doctors in

52:47

their own right. Sure. You know what I

52:49

mean? Yeah, absolutely. I'm not discrediting them at

52:51

all. I'm just saying for

52:54

me and my experiences with

52:56

marijuana, I want to

52:58

be at least within

53:01

20 minutes of a hospital and not like

53:04

ayahuasca in the middle of the forest. That's

53:06

all I'm saying. Yeah, I hear you. I

53:08

think I'll just go

53:10

in with still a little bit

53:12

of that hesitation that I think is normal, but

53:15

just like a little more chill. Okay,

53:19

so Amanda, let's

53:22

move on a little bit. I want to

53:24

talk about your own worst, parentheses,

53:28

best critic. And

53:32

my biggest takeaway from it

53:35

was how

53:37

much we self-judge

53:40

ourselves. But

53:42

when I say how much, no,

53:44

for real, how much to what

53:46

extent. And I

53:48

started to notice it and it was mind

53:51

blowing. Because you

53:53

hear negative self-talk. Oh

53:56

my God, I'm super hard on myself. I talk

53:59

about that a lot. the time. A lot

54:01

of people can relate, but when

54:03

you really, really break

54:05

it down through meditation and notice

54:09

instinctively how you talk yourself down

54:11

or judge yourself or blame yourself

54:13

for all of the bad experiences

54:15

that you have. Thank you. What's

54:18

like an example we can give

54:20

people? Just like even a

54:22

thought process. Sure.

54:24

Well, I feel like a

54:26

big example that I give

54:29

in the series was how

54:31

it was very automatic and

54:33

surprisingly automatic for me to

54:35

assume fault for my own

54:37

wrongful conviction. Where like,

54:40

you know, very clearly I have very little

54:42

power and agency in the situation. I'm not

54:44

the one who arrested me. I'm not the

54:46

one who wrongly accused me. I'm not the

54:48

one who sent me to prison for years.

54:50

Like all of that was actually

54:53

not a product of my own

54:55

making and yet, and

54:57

yet I

55:00

just convinced myself

55:02

that if only I had

55:04

spoken Italian better or if only I

55:07

was, I was able to talk about

55:09

what it was like to be hit and

55:11

yelled at in my interrogation. If only like

55:13

I put it on myself. I

55:29

mean to the point where you said it

55:31

out loud and your husband Chris had to

55:33

point it out to you. Yeah. No, Amanda,

55:36

you didn't. Yeah. I said the thing that

55:38

I said that really waked him out was

55:41

I was just thinking to myself, like, I'm

55:43

so sorry for what I put my family

55:45

through. Like my family just

55:47

went through hell to try to save

55:50

me. They spent years of

55:52

their lives putting everything, all of their

55:54

dreams, their ambitions, they're saving like everything

55:57

on hold sacrifice in order to save

55:59

me. And

56:01

I just felt so guilty for

56:03

that. And I would

56:06

say things like, I'm just so sorry

56:08

for what I put my family through.

56:10

And my husband would like physically

56:13

stop me and be like,

56:15

you did not put your

56:17

family through anything. This

56:20

is not on you. And

56:24

it's just so easy. We're

56:26

so quick to assume fault,

56:28

I think as women. But

56:31

I also think that it's

56:33

a way of thinking that we have control

56:35

over our lives, but in the wrong

56:37

way. We shouldn't

56:39

be taking responsibility for other people's

56:42

decisions. We could be taking responsibility

56:44

for our own. Yeah, that's

56:47

really interesting. It's like, we

56:49

should be taking ownership of our

56:51

lives, yet we're over here taking

56:53

ownership of these little things that

56:55

are A, either not wrong or

56:58

B, not your fault. Yes.

57:02

Yeah, we're taking ownership of the wrong thing. And

57:06

again, it's choosing a debilitating

57:08

narrative as opposed to an

57:11

empowering one. Yeah, and it

57:13

happens so quickly. I

57:15

think I was working out my personal

57:18

trainer and we were talking about this. And

57:21

I said something

57:23

like, oh, I

57:25

have really shitty knees because

57:28

I used to cheer

57:31

and be in gymnastics when I was younger. And then

57:34

immediately I was like, but I mean, that's

57:36

an excuse. Obviously, I can do this shit. We

57:40

were doing lunges. I don't know why I'm

57:42

like, sometimes lunges are just hard. It's

57:46

like, it's okay. You didn't

57:48

do anything wrong. People are like,

57:50

were you doing fucking box shots?

57:52

Or like, what kind of

57:54

crossfit? No, I

57:56

was not training for a marathon. I was simply doing it. lunges

58:00

with heavy weights by the

58:02

way. That's hard. If anyone

58:05

would have sore knees from

58:08

that. Thank you. Did I

58:10

just have to include that

58:13

there were heavy weights? No.

58:15

It's like it's this just

58:17

immediate like I need to hurry

58:20

and justify it to myself or

58:22

to whoever's listening like. Right. Instead

58:25

of just being like it was hard. Yeah.

58:27

Something hard. And it's no one's

58:29

fault. Yeah. Sometimes things are just

58:31

hard. Sometimes things are just fucking

58:33

hard. Okay.

58:36

So Amanda, I want

58:38

to ask you some

58:40

questions that are like a little bit different.

58:42

Cool. Your

58:46

trust issues

58:49

coming out of that before

58:51

going into that experience. I

58:54

don't know who on the

58:56

planet doesn't have trust issues. Primarily

58:59

women. How are

59:01

you able to find

59:04

your husband Chris? Because

59:06

you you talk about him for a significant

59:10

amount of your resilience

59:13

story. Oh, do I? I didn't even realize.

59:16

I can't give you significant, but like there were

59:19

a couple of shout out significant

59:21

in itself. He

59:24

has played a significant role. Yes.

59:26

To be to be fair. That's

59:28

what I meant. You can tell

59:31

by her storytelling how

59:33

significant he was. How were

59:36

you able to was it just

59:38

like open arms with Chris or were

59:40

you like you

59:43

need to prove yourself to me for three and a

59:45

half months, which is what I do. That's

59:49

a really great question.

59:52

And maybe to give you the back

59:55

story. I grew up pretty

1:00:00

well taken care of, nothing bad had ever

1:00:02

happened to me. People were generally nice to

1:00:04

me. I had

1:00:06

a great growing up. I

1:00:08

didn't have trauma from growing

1:00:11

up. I was never abused

1:00:13

by anyone. And

1:00:15

so being a 20 year old,

1:00:17

going and studying abroad, I

1:00:20

had no reason not

1:00:22

to trust people. Like I didn't

1:00:25

feel anxiety about people. In fact,

1:00:27

I loved people and I loved

1:00:30

doing things like immersing myself in a

1:00:32

crowd and just like watching people. And

1:00:35

I was very quick to

1:00:37

smile at strangers or to strike

1:00:39

up conversations that I

1:00:41

was just a very like outgoing personality

1:00:43

like that. And then after,

1:00:46

well, and then in the prison environment,

1:00:50

I learned very quickly to

1:00:52

be invisible as much

1:00:54

as possible. It was

1:00:56

just safer that way. So I didn't, I interacted

1:00:58

with other prisoners in so

1:01:02

far as

1:01:06

helping them with things. But

1:01:08

I learned that I could not trust anyone because

1:01:15

I was the famous prisoner. And

1:01:18

so I just kept to myself. I

1:01:22

stayed busy doing my own things and

1:01:24

I did not do a lot of

1:01:26

the gossiping or

1:01:31

you know, fraternizing. Like

1:01:33

I was very, I was nice, but I was distant. And

1:01:39

coming home, I

1:01:41

really, like in prison, I

1:01:45

sort of had told myself that I would get to

1:01:47

go back to my life. In

1:01:51

my brain, I thought like for a while there, I was

1:01:53

like, I'm just living someone else's life by mistake

1:01:56

and I just wanna go back to my life. of

1:02:00

my life. And in that moment

1:02:02

of acquittal, I had a sort of a

1:02:05

flash of that again, like, Oh, maybe I

1:02:07

am going to get my life back. I

1:02:09

am going to get to go back to

1:02:11

being an anonymous college student. And then of

1:02:13

course I get home and I'm very quickly

1:02:15

dispelled of that notion I am forever

1:02:18

this girl accused of murder. All of

1:02:20

my friends have moved on, you know,

1:02:23

not in the sense that like they don't care

1:02:25

about me, but they're not in classes with me

1:02:27

anymore. I'm just in I'm just living life at

1:02:29

a different pace. And so I

1:02:32

felt very isolated from the rest

1:02:34

of humanity. And because I was

1:02:36

very literally a target of the

1:02:38

tabloids, I didn't

1:02:40

feel like I could trust anyone,

1:02:43

literally anybody, anyone I'm sure that I

1:02:45

didn't know, I'm sure there were moments

1:02:47

where even your family you were like,

1:02:50

there were moments when

1:02:52

I had to have

1:02:54

conversations with members of

1:02:56

my family, or just recognize that there

1:02:58

were certain things that I couldn't share

1:03:00

with members of my family. Like,

1:03:03

you know, my OMA, for example, who's

1:03:05

like old and very proud of me,

1:03:07

and is on Facebook. And

1:03:09

like, I'm just like, you know what, like, I

1:03:12

need to just not share with OMA

1:03:14

certain things. So she doesn't share them on Facebook.

1:03:16

And then it's picked up by a tabloid, you

1:03:18

know, like, she has no idea how to take

1:03:20

it down. We know that we cannot explain to

1:03:22

her over the phone how to take that post.

1:03:24

And I'm just not going to I don't want

1:03:27

to force her to live in a state of

1:03:30

questioning and paranoia that I'm having to force

1:03:32

myself to live in. So I'm just going

1:03:34

to limit the kinds of things that I

1:03:37

share with people I love. So I'm not

1:03:39

having to burden them with

1:03:41

the sense of paranoia that I

1:03:43

live with. Then,

1:03:47

then comes along Chris. And

1:03:49

our meet

1:03:51

cute is actually great. At the

1:03:54

time that I met him, I

1:03:56

was writing under a pseudonym

1:03:59

for a local newspaper doing

1:04:02

arts correspondence. And actually I

1:04:04

think at the time that I met him,

1:04:06

I just started writing in my own name.

1:04:08

But prior to that, I had been writing,

1:04:10

you know, for a year and a half,

1:04:12

at least under a pseudonym so that nobody

1:04:14

would just like, dig into

1:04:16

these like profiles of, you know, the plays

1:04:18

that are going on in West Seattle, and

1:04:20

like trying to figure out if I'm a

1:04:23

murderer by the language that I use in

1:04:25

a friggin, you know, play review. So I,

1:04:29

I read a copy of his debut novel. I

1:04:32

review it for the paper. I submit

1:04:35

it, then and done. Debut

1:04:37

novel. A debut novel, War of the

1:04:39

Encyclopedists. I wrote a rave review. Incredible.

1:04:44

Beyond Alone. Yeah, War of the Encyclopedists.

1:04:46

I like to say that I wasn't

1:04:48

sleeping with the gentleman until after I

1:04:50

read it. What

1:04:54

better review than that. But no, I read

1:04:56

this novel, I submitted to the paper,

1:04:59

done and done. Except the very

1:05:01

next day I walk out of my

1:05:03

apartment building and in the diner window

1:05:05

across the street, there was this poster

1:05:07

for a book reading for this exact book

1:05:09

that I had just finished reading and

1:05:11

reviewing. And it was at my local

1:05:13

bookstore that very night. And

1:05:17

it all felt a little serendipitous.

1:05:19

I thought, Oh, that's interesting. And

1:05:22

I, but it was

1:05:24

not like a book reading was not typically

1:05:26

something that I would do. It was public.

1:05:28

It was around people who might

1:05:31

recognize me and might say something. I did

1:05:33

not go and do public things. I did

1:05:35

not go to bars. I did not do

1:05:38

karaoke. I like, I stayed pretty much to

1:05:40

myself. So walking into

1:05:42

a social space was

1:05:46

a big deal for me. And I thought, well, maybe

1:05:48

I can like poke my head in and nobody

1:05:50

will notice. And of course, as

1:05:53

soon as I poke my head in, everybody

1:05:55

notices and there's whisper, whisper, whisper, but

1:05:57

I sit down and I try to enjoy.

1:06:00

this book reading. And I

1:06:02

see these two best friends who wrote a novel

1:06:04

together. And one of

1:06:06

them has got this like Elton

1:06:09

John vibe to him,

1:06:11

big glasses, like, like

1:06:13

stripes carved into his beard, flashy

1:06:15

outfit. And then this other

1:06:17

guy who's like, bald and

1:06:20

muscular and military guy who speaks with

1:06:22

a lisp and they just clearly adore

1:06:24

each other. And I think this is

1:06:26

the cutest bromance I've ever seen. So

1:06:28

I interview them for the paper later.

1:06:31

And when I'm

1:06:33

interviewing them, it's a nice conversation. We're

1:06:35

talking about books and writing, but also

1:06:37

Star Trek and scotch, you know, whatever.

1:06:39

It's, it's very natural. And at

1:06:41

the end of this like

1:06:43

long hangout session is what it turned

1:06:45

into. Gavin

1:06:48

gave me a big hug. Chris shook

1:06:51

my hand and said, Hey, we should be friends. And

1:06:54

it, I walked

1:06:56

away from that experience thinking,

1:06:58

Oh my God, is it

1:07:02

possible for me to make friends with

1:07:04

people now? Like this was

1:07:06

very shortly after I was fully

1:07:08

exonerated. So I was no longer

1:07:10

on trial anymore. And it was

1:07:12

my first glimpse at what was

1:07:14

potentially possible for me, this opportunity

1:07:17

to make friends with somebody

1:07:19

that was new. And

1:07:22

so Chris was one of

1:07:24

my first friends that I made after

1:07:26

being fully exonerated. And nine

1:07:29

months after first meeting him, we

1:07:31

started dating. And

1:07:33

I knew that like I, at that time

1:07:35

I was still sort of treating my past

1:07:37

as a ball and chain. So I

1:07:39

approached him like, well, we approached each other. We

1:07:41

liked each other. We clearly liked each other. And,

1:07:45

but like he at the time, I'm sorry

1:07:48

to out you boo. He at the time was playing

1:07:50

the field. So I was not the only girl that

1:07:52

he was hanging out with.

1:07:54

And it was kind of great. It was so low

1:07:56

stakes. And because I just, I

1:07:59

didn't feel like I knew. needed him

1:08:01

to commit to my baggage, right? I

1:08:03

was just like, you know what? I

1:08:05

enjoy being around you, and that's good

1:08:07

enough for me. I

1:08:09

had sort of resigned myself to the idea

1:08:11

that I probably was never really going to

1:08:13

get to do life

1:08:17

with a family. Like, I thought

1:08:19

that like my experience made me

1:08:21

unapproachable. It

1:08:27

was, again, so much of a struggle, so

1:08:29

much of a limitation that I

1:08:31

didn't really feel like someone else could

1:08:34

enter into that limitation and really blossom

1:08:36

in their life. And

1:08:38

instead, you know, Chris, to

1:08:40

his credit, like he didn't really know about

1:08:42

my case. He's

1:08:44

not a true crime guy. He

1:08:46

is a poetry guy. He

1:08:49

knew that people knew of me. Yes.

1:08:52

He knew that it had to do with something

1:08:54

scandalous, something true crime, but he didn't

1:08:56

like upon meeting me, go and

1:08:58

Google me and go down the rabbit hole.

1:09:02

And even as he was hanging out with me, people would come

1:09:04

up to him and be like, oh my God, what do you

1:09:06

think? Like, blah, blah, blah. And he would just be like, he

1:09:09

was like, he's one of four or

1:09:11

five. Right. Well, but also

1:09:13

like, but also like sort of

1:09:17

against his wishes, he found himself

1:09:19

liking me the best of all

1:09:21

the things. This is like

1:09:24

an incredible person that I love hanging out with,

1:09:26

she's so smart, so interesting. Like

1:09:28

his roommate was like behind the

1:09:30

scenes going, hey, Amanda. And

1:09:36

so eventually he just found himself

1:09:38

like canceling dates

1:09:40

with other girls so he could keep hanging out

1:09:42

with me. And then- The

1:09:45

rest is history. And the rest is history. And

1:09:49

he's now fully knowledgeable about the case because

1:09:51

it's a big part of who I am.

1:09:54

Yes. But it's not the way that

1:09:56

we entered into a relationship and it's

1:09:58

certainly not a limit. to our

1:10:00

relationship at all. Which is

1:10:03

just a beautiful, incredible story in itself,

1:10:06

but also it's just

1:10:09

a testament to, there

1:10:12

are people out there and a lot

1:10:14

of them that won't look at you

1:10:17

and think of you just for your

1:10:19

story. A lot of them will, but

1:10:21

a lot of them won't. And actually,

1:10:23

Chris is one of the reasons why

1:10:26

I started feeling like I wasn't limited

1:10:28

by this story that I

1:10:31

was encapsulated in. I

1:10:35

didn't always talk about my case or whatever,

1:10:37

but little things would come up in conversation.

1:10:39

He'd be like, oh, have you seen the movie,

1:10:42

Wall-E, Let's Watch Wall-E, and I'm like, what's Wall-E?

1:10:44

And he'd be like, well, how did you not

1:10:46

see Wall-E? It was an incredible movie. And I'd

1:10:48

be like, oh, I think I was in prison

1:10:51

at that time. And little jokey things would come

1:10:53

out and he would recognize in me little

1:10:58

brilliant insights that I might have

1:11:00

and be like, that's not a

1:11:02

usual thing. Like this thing that

1:11:05

you have, that this

1:11:07

compassion that you have, this curiosity you

1:11:09

have, like this is special. This

1:11:12

is a good thing that

1:11:14

you have. And he

1:11:17

helped sort of break that open

1:11:20

for me and show me when

1:11:22

I was doubting myself that there

1:11:25

was something valuable in all of

1:11:27

what I had. That's

1:11:30

really beautiful. And

1:11:32

to find a partner that you

1:11:35

can share that with and who can also bring

1:11:37

that to your attention

1:11:39

and to your awareness. And not be

1:11:42

intimidated by that. And not be intimidated

1:11:44

is like, where

1:11:46

do we find another, Chris,

1:11:49

you have a brother? What's the deal? He does

1:11:51

have a brother. Actually,

1:11:53

can I shout out his brother for a

1:11:55

second? Absolutely. Because his brother is a very

1:11:58

special person who, first of all, like. Like

1:12:00

one of my very special moments that I've had with

1:12:03

his brother is his brother, like just

1:12:05

really embraced me. His father has done this too. Both

1:12:08

of them have embraced me and said

1:12:10

like, thank you for making my brother

1:12:12

or my son so happy. Like just

1:12:14

that like they're very like gracious people,

1:12:16

um, gracious men who

1:12:18

are very in touch with their feelings

1:12:20

somehow. Um, but his brother,

1:12:22

um, I don't know if we can, we

1:12:25

can talk, but he's a Ren Fair

1:12:27

performer. He's like the director of a

1:12:29

company called the Seattle Knights who perform

1:12:31

in Ren Fairs and ride horses and

1:12:33

wear armor and like sword fighting. And

1:12:36

yeah, it's hot to a

1:12:38

certain crowd of people. Listen,

1:12:40

listen, I will look into it. I've

1:12:44

heard jousting. This is a

1:12:46

whole different level which shows

1:12:49

what he's capable of above

1:12:51

and beyond. But

1:12:54

yes, is that the shout out

1:12:56

or do we need to give them the name or the

1:12:58

shout out? So Seattle Knights for those who are

1:13:01

not aware of the brilliant,

1:13:03

uh, sword play and jousting

1:13:05

that can be observed in HUD. That

1:13:08

sounds amazing. I'm from Utah and the

1:13:11

closest thing we have to that is

1:13:13

the Shakespearean. Oh yeah. Which

1:13:16

is actually big there. I mean, it's the

1:13:18

same crowd. It's all people who like to

1:13:20

stuff themselves into corsets. You

1:13:22

know, right? Have

1:13:26

you heard of a corset gasm by the way? I'm

1:13:29

very intrigued. Okay. So

1:13:32

the corset gasm is you're, you're stuck

1:13:34

in a, you're tight corset all day

1:13:36

in this like sweltering weather in the

1:13:38

middle of a Renaissance fair or Shakespearean

1:13:41

fair. And at the end of the

1:13:43

day, when you release the corset, it's

1:13:45

just corset gasm. I

1:13:50

thought it was going to be a little bit like crazier.

1:13:52

Like, I don't know, you know how, like you

1:13:54

can have an orgasm from the bottom of your

1:13:57

feet. Oh, I thought it was going to

1:13:59

be a little something. I'm sure if somebody

1:14:01

gets an orgasm from being strapped up,

1:14:03

but this is just literally the release

1:14:05

that you feel after a long day

1:14:08

of being strapped in. Which is, the

1:14:10

release should be compared to an orgasm. It

1:14:13

is like taking your bra off at the

1:14:15

end of the day times 100. Absolutely.

1:14:18

You know what I mean? Absolutely. You know what

1:14:21

it is. You've been in a corset before. I

1:14:23

know, I know, really. And I wish it was

1:14:25

for the right reasons. I

1:14:28

mean lingerie after Valentine's Day, but no, it

1:14:30

was at the fair. That's

1:14:32

a great reason. It

1:14:35

actually really is. Okay,

1:14:39

Amanda, this has been so

1:14:41

incredible. I really try to

1:14:44

like balance this with, how

1:14:46

do I take her advice

1:14:49

that has completely changed my life for

1:14:51

the better and make it

1:14:54

applicable to everyone listening? And I hope you

1:14:56

weren't talking too abstract.

1:14:58

Yeah, I do feel a little

1:15:00

bad for talking in abstracts, but

1:15:02

it's like, I mean,

1:15:06

listen to the series and see how

1:15:08

it resonates. Because I feel like, again,

1:15:12

everyone is moving through their lives and

1:15:14

experiencing these narratives. And

1:15:16

just having a moment of pause to

1:15:19

realize that you're telling yourself something that

1:15:21

is making you miserable unnecessarily is like

1:15:23

a really powerful moment. And

1:15:26

then being willing to find the

1:15:28

opportunity in, I mean,

1:15:31

God, it sounds so stupid, find the opportunity

1:15:33

in the obstacles. It really does. No,

1:15:35

you didn't say you

1:15:38

sound horny, but you're

1:15:40

just dropping like insanely

1:15:42

profound things. And

1:15:45

I'm glad you pointed out the women part of

1:15:47

it. That was a self judgment. Yeah, it

1:15:49

was a self judgment. Yeah, you just

1:15:51

called me out. You called me out, thank you. I

1:15:55

appreciate that. I

1:15:57

do think like it's really important for women

1:15:59

to enter. into not just the

1:16:01

wellness space but the resilience space.

1:16:03

Yeah. Because I think we end

1:16:05

up getting pigeonholed in victim

1:16:09

mentality and self-help sort of

1:16:13

space and then in the mindfulness

1:16:15

resilience space, it seems like in

1:16:17

the stoicism space, it seems like

1:16:19

such a red meat men kind

1:16:21

of thing. And

1:16:26

it's absolutely not like some of the

1:16:28

most resilient people that I know are

1:16:30

women who have

1:16:32

gone through incredible struggle. And

1:16:36

it doesn't necessarily have to be this like big

1:16:38

external thing. Like it could be a big internal

1:16:41

thing. Like you have been telling yourself, you have

1:16:43

been the worst critic of your whole life and

1:16:46

you feel like you feel miserable about

1:16:48

yourself even though nothing bad

1:16:50

has ever happened to you. It's like

1:16:52

you're not going to be able to do that. But

1:16:55

it's like you're not going to be able to do that. And

1:16:58

it's just like you're going to be able to do that. And

1:17:02

then it's like, you're going to be able to

1:17:04

get the best of yourself for no reason.

1:17:06

And then moving past that, like embracing

1:17:09

that that is what is happening and

1:17:11

then finding clarity in

1:17:13

where you're coming from, having compassion

1:17:15

for yourself, and then moving forward,

1:17:17

and then it's on the waking

1:17:19

up app resilience. And the

1:17:21

way that you are able to talk

1:17:24

about things is

1:17:26

really magical and is really a gift

1:17:28

because it's things I've heard before, but

1:17:30

they just never registered. And then after

1:17:32

hearing you kind of break it down,

1:17:34

it was able to

1:17:36

resonate with me. So thank you. And

1:17:39

then your podcast that you do with

1:17:42

Chris, the man of the hour,

1:17:44

Labyrinth. And where

1:17:46

else? Where else should

1:17:48

they find you? We have a

1:17:51

New York Times bestseller. We do. I

1:17:53

do. And I also, we have

1:17:55

a show in the works. We have

1:17:59

a book in the works. So I I

1:18:01

would say follow us at Knox Robinson

1:18:03

calm and stay tuned Because there are

1:18:05

some really exciting things in the works

1:18:07

that are going to be coming out

1:18:12

Me typing it down Like

1:18:16

the biggest fangirl ever and I apologize Okay,

1:18:19

sloots. Thank you so much for listening. I'm out

1:18:22

to thank you so much I wasn't calling you

1:18:24

a sloot by the way, just the people call

1:18:26

me a sloot. It's fine. I'm down with it

1:18:29

The humorous catharsis which we didn't touch

1:18:31

on is like I'm feeling it. Yeah

1:18:37

It's a great one and thank you so much