0:00

don't limit yourself . I mean , if

0:02

you want to go for it , you're opening a

0:04

door doesn't mean that you close many more doors

0:06

. It's not like that

0:08

. You can still come back and

0:10

stuff . So even if nowadays someone was like

0:12

, oh , I studied

0:14

computer science , now can I do physics , I was

0:16

like , well

0:20

, you may not be applying to be a professor , but if

0:23

you have your skills as a computer

0:25

scientist or an engineer , then you can

0:27

maybe help in their research

0:29

as an engineer and then start

0:32

from there to get to know more about that

0:34

. Now , especially when a lot of research

0:37

needs data , needs a

0:39

lot of computational power , well

0:41

, if you have that background , they love you

0:43

, they need you . So I

0:45

don't think that

0:48

a lot of things are connected and

0:50

you just haven't realized that yet

0:52

.

0:52

So , yeah , Hello

0:54

and welcome to Developers Journey

0:56

, the podcast bringing you the making of stories

0:59

of successful software developers to

1:01

help you on your upcoming journey

1:03

. I'm a host , tim Borghigno . On

1:06

this episode I receive Chuck Ting Hall

1:08

. Chuck has been a data scientist

1:10

in various companies before following

1:12

a passion for the tech communities

1:14

and side stepping toward developer

1:17

relations . She's now a community

1:19

manager at OpenSSF , that's

1:21

the Open Source Security Foundation . She's

1:24

obviously massively interested in open source

1:26

and she contributes to multiple libraries

1:28

like Hypothetis , pytest

1:31

, pandas , jupyter Notebooks and Django . I'm

1:33

sure there's quite a few more , but let's

1:35

stop the list there and to run

1:37

that picture of her , she loves to serve

1:39

the communities she is in as a frequent

1:42

speaker , as an organizer of various

1:44

events , but also as a full

1:46

board member of the Europe Python Society or

1:48

currently a Python Software Foundation Fellow

1:50

and Director . Chuck , a warm

1:53

welcome , devtrain .

1:54

Hello , hello world .

1:57

Exactly . But before we come to your

1:59

story , I want to thank the terrific

2:01

listeners who support the show . Every month

2:04

you are keeping the

2:06

DevTrain A lights up . If you would like

2:08

to join this fine crew

2:10

and help me spend more time on

2:12

finding phenomenal guests than

2:14

editing audio tracks , please go

2:17

to our website , devjourneyinfo

2:19

, and click on the support me

2:21

on Patreon button . Even the smallest

2:24

contributions are giant steps toward

2:27

a sustainable Dev journey journey

2:29

. Thank you , and now

2:31

back to today's guests . So , chuck

2:33

, as you know , the show exists to help the listeners

2:35

understand what your story looked like and imagine

2:38

how to shape their own future . So

2:40

, as usual on the show , let's go back to your

2:42

beginnings . Where would you place the start

2:44

of your Dev journey ?

2:46

Oh , I got asked this question a lot

2:48

because , like , I have interviews and stuff

2:50

and everybody asked me to introduce myself . So

2:52

I would always like , okay

2:54

, where should I start ? Like I

2:56

think the most relevant thing ? Well

2:59

, maybe maybe for funsies . I would start

3:01

like when I was very , very young I

3:03

was like maybe 14 or so I

3:05

love games . I think a lot of us

3:07

do . A lot of us was like

3:09

driving to the programming

3:11

world because we love games and

3:14

actually my game addiction , stuff . Before that

3:16

, when I was 14 , I tried

3:19

to create a game with Flash

3:21

If you're old

3:23

enough to know Flash .

3:26

I am . I suffered ActionScript

3:28

for a while .

3:29

Yes , yes , I discovered

3:31

ActionScript , so that's probably my first

3:33

one of my first programming language . So

3:35

I tried to make games with it . But

3:38

even before that I was like watching my

3:40

dad play some DOS game

3:43

when I was a kid sitting on

3:45

his lap and he was playing something like Prince

3:47

of Persia and things like that . Oh , I

3:49

remember that .

3:51

Yeah , okay . So how

3:53

did that initial

3:55

interest into gaming segue

3:59

into creating games or being

4:01

interested in how games are created ?

4:04

Yeah , I don't know , I think I would

4:06

just like imagine that . Well

4:08

, I could , I could design how

4:10

it looks , because I love imagining things

4:13

when I was a kid so I was like , oh , I

4:15

want to create a world that is not the

4:17

world I'm in . There's like a magical

4:20

world or something . So I feel

4:22

like gaming kind of satisfies a lot of

4:25

that . I love pointing and click Avengers

4:27

, like I haven't played Monkey Island

4:29

, but there is like some like Asian

4:32

, like Chinese knockoff of those like

4:34

pointing and click games

4:37

. So , yeah , I do enjoy

4:40

that a lot , the interactiveness

4:42

. I feel like there's another world inside a computer

4:44

. So that's why I was like , oh , I

4:46

want to create my own world . I got

4:49

a little bit there

4:51

.

4:52

Oh , we all wanted to do that at some point . Did

4:54

you manage , then , to play God with

4:56

games or with with software programs

4:59

at some point ?

4:59

Yeah , I think I think kind of

5:01

my early journey kind of take a

5:03

pause there . After I kind

5:06

of , you know , created some fresh

5:08

game . I found it very hard because , like

5:10

, I'm not very good at drawing , so the access

5:13

like not . Like nowadays you have

5:15

a lot of resources you can ask online and even

5:17

free resources you can use . So

5:20

back in the day I was like , oh , I

5:23

won't be able to create anything like pretty

5:25

and fun . So I

5:27

kind of like pause there . What

5:30

? Because , also , like Asian kid , you know

5:32

, there's a pressure puts on

5:34

you to like do well academically . So

5:37

at that time I was , I was doing well

5:40

in computer science , but at the same time I

5:42

also like science , like natural

5:44

science , you know , physics and

5:46

stuff . So I so I focused

5:48

a lot of time on studying and

5:51

less gaming and

5:55

I ended up , when I went to uni I

5:57

choose between two

5:59

subjects that I like equally at

6:01

a time is like physics and computer science

6:03

. And at

6:06

that time I was , like you know , socializing

6:08

with a lot of people who may be a few

6:11

years senior than me . There was someone who

6:13

already studied in the university

6:15

that ended up in . He told

6:17

me that like , actually

6:20

, if you choose to study physics , maybe

6:22

some point in your life , in the future , you can go back to

6:24

computer science , but not the other way around

6:26

. So I

6:29

took his advice and actually it was true , because

6:31

now I'm kind of working in the tech field

6:37

.

6:37

So you pursued a bachelor

6:41

, master's degree in physics .

6:43

Yeah , so I studied physics and

6:45

I was at the beginning is

6:48

, it seems , well , I love quantum mechanics

6:50

and all those abstract things because , like

6:52

you know , I like imagining things or

6:54

those things I really love . But

6:57

then when I go to my , you know

6:59

, postgraduate study , when I was trying to get

7:01

my master , at that time I was like , oh , maybe

7:03

, maybe I should study harder and pursue

7:06

a PhD . But then it was

7:08

like a decision of whether I want to do that

7:10

really or not . So

7:12

at that time I was very involved

7:14

in a lot of like student society things

7:16

you know already , like you

7:18

know , get involved in the community

7:21

, in the university , so everything just kind

7:23

of go back around in my life . So

7:26

, yeah , so at that time I was like , so involved

7:29

in those like student union

7:31

things . So I was super

7:33

distracted and my my

7:36

advice , like you know , the

7:38

supervisor of my research , he

7:40

literally had a word with me and say

7:42

like , well , if you want to pursue the

7:45

academic study , you should focus on it and

7:47

not get distracted . So so

7:50

that that is really a life

7:52

changing like question for me , that what I

7:54

really want to pursue in my life . So

7:57

I ended up

7:59

choosing to , to

8:02

not limit myself Because

8:05

, you know to it's very

8:07

hard academically , you know you have to

8:09

, and especially for women as well . And

8:12

I didn't . That wasn't like really

8:14

in the conversation , but from

8:16

the environment that I was in , you know

8:18

, because when in undergraduate school

8:20

only like there's a class of , let's

8:22

say , a hundred something of

8:25

physics undergraduate student , there's

8:27

only maybe like 10 or so

8:29

women . So

8:31

so the environment I was in I

8:33

didn't feel that like because I study in

8:35

a girls' school , in , you

8:37

know , secondary school , and so

8:39

most of my teenage years were just spending around

8:42

like girls . So

8:44

I feel I'm a little bit different

8:46

, because I love science and stuff , but I didn't

8:48

, didn't feel discouraged , luckily

8:50

. But then when it's in

8:52

uni , then you feel like , oh , I'm doing something

8:54

very different here and

8:57

I see a difficulty of

8:59

see that I can't really focus . I

9:02

really that that's may not be what

9:04

I want to do for the rest of my life . So

9:06

I ended up , you

9:09

know , choosing to finish my study

9:11

with my degree and then move down and

9:13

leave the academic

9:15

world .

9:17

Okay , how did you , did you make

9:19

this decision ? Was it that really a long

9:22

thinking process where you may pros

9:24

and cons and really , but then ? Or was it

9:26

a gut feeling and then you followed that gut feeling ? Yeah

9:29

, tell me more about this .

9:31

So that that that conversation with

9:33

my supervisor really sit with me for a while

9:35

. I was like thinking also , you

9:38

know , I have expectation from family that

9:40

oh , I'm the one because compare

9:42

me and my sister is like I'm the one who do well

9:45

in academia , like in academic

9:47

studies and stuff , so but , but

9:51

I always got a lot of freedom , I think , like

9:53

my parents know that I'm stubborn , so they know

9:55

that they can't change my mind . If I decided on something

9:58

, I would just go for it . So

10:00

if I decided to not do it , they

10:02

know that I would just go to do something

10:04

else . So

10:06

so , yeah , it sits with me for a while

10:09

. And then , of course , at that time I was like

10:11

, okay , I have to finish up my study anyway , because

10:14

actually I got funding

10:16

to do my , my postgraduate

10:18

study . So I feel like , oh , it would be

10:20

a waste if I didn't

10:22

finish the degree . So I finished the degree and

10:25

then I just know that

10:27

this is okay , this is basically done for me . Then

10:31

I go to , you know , just like any

10:33

graduates look for jobs . It's super tough

10:35

because I in , in

10:37

where I grew up , like Hong Kong , it is like

10:39

almost like a useless degree , right ?

10:41

Because Well , what was your

10:43

degree actually ?

10:44

It's . It's well , it's in physics which

10:46

like not like kind of , for example

10:49

because Hong Kong is a very small place is

10:51

very interesting . You know

10:54

situation there politically and

10:56

everything , so it doesn't get a lot

10:58

of opportunity . If you're a scientist , you

11:01

probably end up maybe working for

11:03

the government to do some like

11:05

stuff , but that is a very , very narrow

11:07

, narrow field . Most

11:09

of the industry in Hong Kong was

11:11

finance , you know

11:14

business services and stuff . So

11:16

being a scientist is kind of a

11:18

bit useless .

11:20

Okay , did you try ? Did you try

11:22

? Sorry , sorry . Did

11:25

you try to to go into physics

11:28

as a as a profession after

11:30

your studies , or did you look for something

11:32

else ?

11:33

Yeah , I have to look something else . So I

11:35

have to kind of think of , okay

11:37

, maybe , because

11:39

, like , I have friends who finished a

11:41

PhD study in in physics

11:43

. So either you know a

11:45

lot of a lot of them , the one who

11:47

can make it go overseas , you know

11:49

, to do their PhD or do their

11:51

postdoc overseas

11:54

, then they may end up getting a teaching

11:56

position somewhere . But some

11:58

of them , like , they just go to work for the government

12:00

and I was like I can't find a

12:02

position there , like like that , because

12:04

a lot of my peers they have , like

12:07

you know , achieving even a

12:09

higher degree and they are , you know , applying

12:11

for same position . I was like , wow

12:14

, the competition is super keen , right . So

12:16

I ended up also

12:19

, I mean , I don't feel like

12:21

I can work for the government . I can tell you

12:23

like now , if I look

12:26

back , I was like I am not very

12:28

good at working in a very structured , you

12:30

know , organization . Oh

12:32

so , yeah , government will be the a very good

12:34

like working environment for me anyway . So

12:37

so I ended up looking

12:40

for just some jobs . Like

12:42

you know , that is totally irrelevant . I

12:45

worked for an advertisement company for

12:48

a while because at the time

12:50

I was , you know , I was just

12:52

doing some like freelance tutoring and

12:54

stuff , just to like make a living . It's

12:57

not super grammalists , it's not stable

13:00

and stuff . So I was reading

13:02

different things about , oh , how

13:04

do people work in the real

13:06

life ? Cause I wasn't planning for that . I was

13:08

, you know , when I was , you know , sometime

13:11

like 16 , 17, . When you think about your future

13:13

, I was pursuing the academic

13:15

career . Right , I want to be

13:17

a professor . It

13:20

changes , so I have to learn all of these things Like

13:22

how do people find a job in real life , you

13:24

know . So

13:26

I ended up like seeing , oh you know , an

13:29

advertisement company . They love people being

13:32

creative . Then I kind of remember

13:34

the days that I loved creating games . I

13:36

was like , oh , I want to be creative

13:38

and how can I show that I'm creative

13:40

, you know . Then

13:42

I ended up sending some for

13:44

interesting CVs . Instead of like a piece

13:47

of paper , I send them . You

13:49

know , I printed some name card for myself . My

13:51

nickname is Cherry , so it's just like sound

13:53

like the fruit . So I sending

13:56

a bag of plastic

13:58

cherries in the Ziploc

14:00

bag to the company

14:02

that I'm applying to , together with my CV . So

14:05

I think one company really , like

14:07

you know , loved that idea . They

14:09

didn't bend it right away . So

14:12

they contacted me and I ended up working

14:14

for them for a short period of time . But

14:16

then I realized that like , wow , it's also

14:19

very tough to work in an office Like

14:21

that . You know you have to be on

14:23

time . There's like clock in , clock out

14:25

, and sometimes you know meet your client

14:28

and stuff . I

14:30

think the Asian working culture is very tough

14:32

for me Because , like , if you compare

14:34

to working there and what

14:36

I'm doing now , you know working from home

14:39

and just like you know working

14:41

remotely and

14:43

just you know need to get stuff

14:45

done rather than sitting at your desk from nine to

14:47

five . So

14:49

I was not very adopted

14:52

to that . I think part

14:54

of it is like I'm not ready to be an adult

14:56

yet . I was like , still you know that

14:58

student who lived in the lab , you know

15:00

. So

15:03

part of it is that , but also part of it is

15:05

like the working culture in Asia

15:07

is very , very demanding

15:09

especially of like your physical

15:11

presence , just more like they look at your

15:13

day-to-day performance , like performance

15:16

in the sense that like your presence rather

15:19

than what you achieve , which is compared

15:21

to the tech

15:24

world . Basically , so

15:27

yeah , it doesn't end up well . I

15:29

changed job a few times . I even like tried

15:31

to work in a theme park for a while as well . Yeah

15:36

, I worked very interesting jobs

15:38

, like I was a mascot at a famous

15:41

theme park at some time . Whoa

15:43

, yeah , I was

15:45

like , oh , I can do it right , just like you have

15:47

to , you know , be physically fit . At that time

15:49

I was very fit , I exercised a lot . And then

15:51

I was like , okay , and , but

15:54

you have a schedule . So I just followed the schedule and the rest

15:56

of the time nobody bought this year . So I was like , oh , that's great

15:58

. But then

16:00

I also like realized that , oh

16:02

well , what am I doing here ? That's not

16:04

what I want to do , like for the next 10

16:07

, 20 years , right , and then what if I get

16:09

old and I'm not physically fit anymore and

16:11

stuff ? So so

16:13

, yeah , I ended up thinking

16:15

, start thinking , what should I do ? I

16:18

feel like I am in a box in

16:21

Hong Kong . I was like I want to go

16:23

somewhere . I always , I always want

16:25

to go somewhere . I spent some time

16:28

abroad in US and

16:30

the UK for some like

16:32

academic things , you know

16:35

, exchange student and also like visiting labs

16:37

and stuff . So I was like interested

16:39

to go somewhere . So at

16:41

that time . You know some country

16:44

. They have this program called working holiday program

16:46

. So if you

16:48

are young like I mean under 30 , then

16:50

you can apply . So I was close

16:52

to the age limit there I was like , okay

16:55

, if I don't do it now , I

16:57

would never be able to do it . So I was

16:59

like , okay , let's go , let's go

17:01

. I actually it take me a year to plan

17:03

, but I know that I'm hitting the limit , so I

17:05

have to really get it done . That's

17:09

why I did it . I ended up going

17:11

to the UK , moving to the UK and

17:13

, and you know , at the beginning

17:15

I was also the same , doing odd jobs

17:17

, giving off flies on the streets and stuff . So maybe

17:20

if you are in London you have seen me giving off flies

17:22

on the streets . I also sell handbags

17:24

in , you know , in department

17:27

store , so it's not glamorous . There's that

17:29

time in my life that I , you

17:31

know , I just , I

17:34

just , you know , try to make a

17:36

living . I

17:38

don't really have any planning , I just , you

17:40

know , do what my heart tell

17:42

me to . But

17:44

then another kind

17:46

of life changing moment is that I

17:49

start at that time when

17:51

I moved to the UK . I know nobody except

17:53

one acquaintance that we went to the same

17:55

uni . We was working in the

17:57

student union at some period of

17:59

time together , but we are not , like you know

18:01

, working closely together , but

18:04

we just kind of know each other because we were both in the student

18:06

union , kind of you

18:08

know the group and stuff

18:10

. So so

18:12

I contacted my friend back in

18:15

the time we were not even like close friend

18:17

I contacted my friend and then

18:19

and then I would

18:21

use the day pronoun here because I

18:23

think that's more neutral so

18:27

they , they just , like you know , helped

18:29

me a little bit here and there with like some tips

18:31

and stuff and at some point , I

18:33

think , because they told me oh wow , if

18:36

you want to stay longer . You need to get a

18:38

you know . You know , get , not

18:41

not just giving off liars and things like that . You need to get

18:43

a professional job and stuff . So have you think

18:45

about working in tech , because you

18:47

get all the you check a lot of boxes

18:49

right , you get a science background . You can code

18:51

, because I do some computational thing

18:53

when I was doing research , so you can

18:56

code you . How about data science ? And

18:58

I was like , ooh , okay , we

19:01

haven't thought of that , but let's try . So

19:04

I took some online courses at

19:06

the beginnings . I think there's like a lot

19:08

of people do that when they change Korea

19:11

, I talk to a lot of people . It's like it's

19:13

the similar thing . So , you

19:15

know , at that time I do Kocera . I

19:17

don't know whether I would still recommend them nowadays

19:19

, but back in the time , you know you just have a monthly

19:21

subscription and then you can do a lot of courses

19:24

. You get a lot of you

19:26

know certification . You can well

19:28

, you can show it to social media if you want

19:30

to LinkedIn or stuff , but nowadays

19:33

I think it's not , as

19:35

you know , valued , because

19:38

nowadays the science is a field that is

19:40

not as newest before . So

19:45

yeah , so that's what I did . I also went

19:47

to the meetup because I

19:49

don't know how I discovered the meetup , I can't remember , maybe

19:51

my friend told me that . But

19:54

I went to some meetups and then I

19:56

got addicted because , wow , not

19:59

just there's free food , but there are like

20:01

people who are super friendly , super

20:04

willing to help . I

20:06

guess maybe at the beginning I go for the pizza

20:09

. Of course

20:11

, it ended up more than that . Right , I

20:13

ended up I was like , wow , it's

20:15

because , you know , I

20:17

, I don't , like I said I don't have

20:19

a lot of friends when I started . I

20:21

still didn't have a lot of friends when

20:24

I started to change Korea . So

20:26

I was like , okay , it's , you know , free

20:29

show , show in the evening , why not ? You know , I don't

20:31

want to stay in the flat . So at

20:34

that time in London the meetup scene is crazy

20:36

. You ended up , I ended up having pisophobia

20:39

because of that . Start from

20:41

like going for free food and then developing

20:43

pisophobia Because

20:49

it's like you know well

20:51

, friday there's usually nothing , but

20:53

Monday to Thursday you'll probably sometimes

20:55

having to choose between , like

20:57

a meetup and B meetup . They're both

20:59

good , I like the people in both

21:02

is like I have , but at the same time . So

21:04

sometimes like I've even tried once

21:06

to run between two meetups half

21:08

half half of the time here and then also rather

21:10

go and then run to the other one because one start earlier

21:13

than the other . But

21:16

yeah , like that's , that's my

21:18

daily life . At the time I was super involved and

21:20

also I was I

21:23

made some friends in one of the groups I

21:25

think I really thank , thankful for

21:27

some of the ladies I meet . It's kind of

21:29

again like it's a , you know , underrepresented

21:31

group focus kind of thing , not pie ladies

21:34

, but a similar group that focus

21:36

on , like it's called

21:38

AI for gender minority group

21:40

. Unfortunately the group is not continued

21:42

because COVID basically make

21:44

everybody live change , so

21:47

nobody's gathering anymore . But

21:50

but yeah , it was very nice meeting some ladies

21:52

there . They're super supportive . They asked me to join

21:55

organizing team because I show up every time

21:58

and they say like , oh , you really the group

22:00

, come join us and help us and and

22:02

I was like , oh , you can organize meetups

22:05

, okay , and then I try . So

22:09

I ended up yeah , I ended

22:11

up learning a lot like , oh , this is how

22:13

meetup work and stuff , and this is why people

22:15

do meetups and you know , not

22:18

just for free food , but also like learning

22:20

things and meeting people

22:22

, um , and so

22:25

to inject , is this still in your

22:28

transition phase , where you're not working

22:30

as a data scientist yet or , or I think

22:32

, started yet ? I think it happened more or less at the same

22:34

time when I started to get . So I

22:37

was just like at that time I remember I was

22:39

like selling handbags . So

22:41

I had a job selling handbags , which I really

22:43

don't like because the

22:46

floor manager is a bit of a headache

22:49

to deal with , so , um

22:51

, so yeah . So I

22:53

was like , okay , all my breaks I would put all

22:55

my I have a small tablet

22:57

kind of thing at the

22:59

time , I bring it with me and every break

23:01

I would just put out either do some homework or

23:04

send us some CV and answering

23:06

email and stuff . So I ended up sending

23:08

many , many CV and getting one job

23:10

at . I

23:12

was started as a data analyst at

23:14

a company that is now acquired

23:16

by Spanish company , so yeah

23:19

, so a lot of things changes in between , so

23:21

, but I ended up as a data analyst

23:24

and so

23:27

yeah , so I

23:29

, you know I also

23:31

started getting more and more involved in the in

23:33

the community thing , so , and

23:36

then everything was great

23:38

. I also get a little opportunity from my

23:40

team that they

23:42

kind of say like you know , there

23:45

is a very famous , famous

23:47

quotation , I don't know why famous in

23:49

the tech world group

23:52

, called high data . In

23:54

everywhere . They have multiple chapters around

23:56

the globe , so of course

23:58

there's one in London . And then

24:00

, so I remember

24:02

there was a conference , or pilot a conference , and then

24:05

the team was like , oh , let's

24:07

go there together and

24:09

then the company will sponsor

24:11

our tickets . So we went there as

24:14

a team and then I was like , wow , you

24:16

know , mind blowing , there's

24:19

also the meetup that I could go monthly as well . I

24:21

also start doing that and

24:23

I met the organizers also . Very , very

24:26

you know now , now we are friends

24:28

. They also help me a lot during

24:30

my time . So I do

24:32

. I do make you know a lot of friends

24:34

during that time , like mostly

24:37

in the data science community . So

24:39

not just like , for example , those ladies

24:42

who organized the AI and gender

24:44

minority meetup , but also

24:46

some data scientists

24:48

that like professional data scientists I met

24:50

in pie data and also

24:53

there's another one called data science

24:55

workshop , the

24:57

organizers also now my friend . So

25:00

yeah , so you know

25:02

, I made a lot of friends and they

25:04

help me a lot during my my

25:06

like down times , because you

25:09

know , I changed a lot of jobs

25:11

later and then every

25:13

time when I'm looking for a role , I

25:16

would just give them a call and then

25:18

they would help me out saying like have you tried

25:20

applying for this ? Have you tried applying for that

25:22

? They give me some advice and stuff and

25:25

yeah , so I'm so glad I can't survive

25:27

with all my friends in the community .

25:30

That is amazing . When you see community

25:33

not just being something

25:36

you go to and absorb knowledge , but

25:38

really becoming this

25:41

platform of exchange in all directions

25:43

, in the meetups outside of the

25:45

meetups , in the jobs , outside

25:47

of the jobs , in every way

25:50

. That that is really when the community is

25:52

really shine and this is amazing . This really looks

25:54

like you've you've had this

25:56

in your tech career from

25:58

the very get go and even before maybe .

26:01

Yeah , I was very lucky . I think I was

26:03

very lucky to be in a city that's a lot of meetup

26:06

, like now . I would say that is very tough

26:08

, especially when people started during the pandemic

26:10

. I don't know what advice to give them because

26:12

it's so different when I started

26:14

. Yeah

26:17

, also , you know , when I go to conference , like

26:19

because we just you know , because

26:21

we had this I

26:24

was thinking we should do more like beginners

26:26

orientation for people who go to conference

26:29

for the first time , because most people

26:31

I also started like that Go

26:33

to a conference just run from talk to talk

26:35

. I want to listen to all the talks , but

26:37

nowadays all the talks are recorded anyway

26:40

, so just pick a few that

26:42

you're super interested . You may want to talk to a

26:44

speaker afterwards , but then the

26:46

rest spend some time . Talk to people , spend

26:49

some time networking . That's that's like

26:51

for me . It I benefit that the most

26:53

.

26:55

Hell yeah for the whole way track . Yeah

26:57

, the whole way track highly recommended .

27:01

So um , but but yeah

27:03

, my first conference was hi data London . And

27:05

then you

27:08

know , I met some organizers for other pie data chapters

27:10

I remember maybe

27:12

is the Amsterdam one , so

27:14

I was encouraged to like . So

27:17

they , I was like , oh , how can you , how can

27:19

you participate more in the conference , like

27:22

, for example , the speakers ? Like I was like an IBS

27:24

speaker , and the

27:26

organizer of the Amsterdam

27:28

chapter told me that , oh

27:30

, our copper proposal is open to submit . It's

27:33

like , okay , when

27:36

?

27:36

is that .

27:37

Yeah , okay , why not ? Is

27:40

free . You know , the worst I got is

27:42

rejected , and then I learned a lot from that

27:44

, so , but I got accepted . So

27:47

I think I think I also submitted to pie

27:49

data London . Maybe I can't remember , but I

27:51

think , yeah , I got rejected in pie data London . So I didn't

27:53

speak at pie data London the first time I

27:55

participate . I just joined

27:57

because my company is going

27:59

.

28:01

Do you remember how you pick this first subject ?

28:04

I think I just I at

28:06

that time I was very keen to learn , right , I was a new

28:09

data scientist or data analyst . I was like

28:11

learning all this stuff . So I was like , oh , I

28:13

learned about this library , I want to try it out . And

28:15

then I was like this is how

28:17

you can use it . So that's it

28:19

is now . Look back is very silly

28:21

, but , but I guess I , because

28:25

I was very brave and also maybe

28:27

the the topic is very beginner friendly

28:30

because maybe people hasn't heard about

28:32

I I think the library

28:35

. So that was the talk I think the library is about

28:37

. The talk is about the library called Wish

28:39

wish . You wish she fussy , fussy

28:41

, wishy , fussy , wishy . So this is

28:43

just a fussy matching library . It was not

28:46

as popular . Now I know a lot of people

28:48

use it , but it was not as popular . So

28:50

I just found that and I was like , oh , that's cool because

28:52

it helped me to do some fussy matching and

28:54

I just tell people , oh , fussy matching , you use this

28:56

. Um , but then

28:58

, yeah , it got . I said also like I got

29:00

some tips from other people is , oh , make a catchy

29:02

topic . Because I was like , oh , the name of the

29:05

library is quite fun . Like how

29:07

to make it more fun by like writing a

29:09

very catchy title , all

29:11

right . So , um , so I got some tips

29:13

of like how to write a better proposal

29:16

and things like that . So , um , I improved

29:18

and I and maybe

29:20

talking to the organizers will help as well

29:23

. They maybe they want like more representation

29:25

from you know people

29:27

like me , and then so , so

29:29

I don't know is a mix of like Everything

29:32

that I was lucky . Maybe I was lucky .

29:36

I remember , in my own story , being very

29:38

impressed by these , this first proposal

29:40

, and really Uh , wondering

29:42

, feeling like an imposter completely , and saying what

29:44

, what do I have to say ? I'm , I'm new

29:46

, I don't know anything and I've

29:49

been at conferences . My company , you know , sent me quite a

29:51

bit into conferences back then . But I said

29:53

I see all those persons on on

29:55

a pedestal , on on the stage somewhere and talking

29:57

about their expertise and what , what can

29:59

I bring ? And really going

30:01

uh over this , this , this , this

30:04

hump of Um , of applying

30:06

or submitting a talk to for , for

30:08

something , was really hard . I remember it's so

30:10

hard and after the fact I

30:12

realized how silly that was , but I

30:15

just couldn't , couldn't um , couldn't um

30:17

Bring it to myself to really

30:19

submit . And he took my , my boss , to come to

30:21

me and say , okay , now we're submitting together

30:23

and we're doing it . And

30:25

it was really wow . And I remember I submitted

30:27

uh something Not

30:30

similar , but a very tiny library Um , I was , I

30:32

was on on um big java projects

30:34

back then and I submitted something about

30:36

the Nancy project , which is what is a micro

30:38

web framework on dot net , and

30:40

I really wanted to find something that is different

30:43

, completely different , from the java je experience

30:45

and really Absolutely tiny . And

30:48

I remember saying at the beginning Okay , I'm not an expert

30:50

, I I worked with this thing for something like maybe

30:52

50 hours , and so I'm gonna crunch

30:54

all the 50 hours into 20 minutes of

30:56

talk and after that you will have um

30:59

, 149 something hours

31:01

, um and uh , maybe

31:03

you will use it , maybe not , but let's start with this . And

31:06

this really Resonated with the community

31:08

and said , hey , cool , thank you , and that's it

31:10

.

31:10

And I said , oh , that was so easy

31:13

, wow , but it really took

31:15

this first experience to realize that yeah

31:17

, I think a misconception

31:20

of a lot of people is that , uh

31:22

, you have to be an expert to give a talk . But

31:24

I always tell people Well , nobody's

31:26

expert in everything , right , find a topic

31:29

that you're passionate about , do some research about

31:31

it . Of course , like , if you are not

31:33

, something you are not sure , you don't claim

31:35

to be true , and stuff like that . But but

31:37

if you do some research on a topic , you can give a

31:39

topic , you can give it in a perspective of someone

31:42

who just learn about it . Right

31:44

, like it could be also valuable . Um

31:46

, so I

31:48

feel like a lot of talks even by like quotation

31:51

people who are like , or maybe the , the

31:54

, the lead or of the team or something . They look

31:56

very Well , I'm sure they're professional

31:59

and expert in that field , but maybe

32:01

they're presenting about one of the things

32:03

that they have just tried out a few months ago

32:06

and then it works , you know . So

32:08

, yeah , nobody's expert in everything

32:10

. So if you are passionate about something you

32:12

know , why not give , you know

32:14

, submit a talk , do some research on it . Nowadays

32:17

I also use that as the opportunity to learn

32:19

things as well . So , for example

32:21

, if there's a topic that I know a little bit about

32:23

and I am willing

32:25

to do some research about it . If I'm giving a talk about it

32:27

, I would just submit it and

32:30

then , if I it got selected , I was like , okay

32:32

, now I have to do research about it . So

32:35

yeah , so , so , um

32:37

, so usually that's that's how you know . I

32:40

would say that think of a topic that

32:42

you are passionate about , you are willing to spend

32:45

time on . That's the number one party . You

32:47

don't have to have 10 years of experience in that topic , because

32:51

if you have 10 years of experience , maybe you

32:53

got bored with that topic and then you just skim over a lot of like

32:55

background , you

32:58

know , premise and stuff which is very

33:00

hard for people who are not expert in the field to follow . So

33:04

for me , a lot of conference . They

33:07

are looking for talks that are for people who may not be expert

33:09

in the field . If it's a , you

33:12

know , if you get a bunch of expert in a certain field , that is a summit , that's

33:15

not a conference . That's

33:17

my understanding . It may be different from

33:19

a , you know , academic conference , but but for a Tech

33:24

conference usually is more for people who are Developers

33:28

, who may not be expert in that specific

33:30

Because , like for developers

33:32

nowadays , we have to learn a lot of things . And then , oh yes , we do . I'm

33:36

still learning a lot of things . Every time I make a contribution

33:38

, I was like , oh my god , I haven't . I have read some of

33:40

them , but not read enough . So

33:44

so yeah , like Don't

33:47

, don't , don't feel that , you know , you can't

33:49

give a talk because you , you don't have a lot of

33:51

experience in that .

33:53

I mean to that you spoke at the beginning of

33:55

, of being distracted making air quotes , distracted

33:58

by student societies , and

34:00

and throughout your your story

34:03

until now , there's been this , this , this , not

34:05

student societies anymore , but

34:07

communities on the side , and at some

34:09

point you decided to embrace this and and embrace the distraction as

34:12

your day job . How did that happen ? Yeah

34:15

?

34:16

it's a similar thing that happened actually . So I

34:19

was working as a data scientist , you know the first , the first one was

34:21

great I love the

34:23

team but they were acquired by a Spanish

34:25

company . There was some like internal change . I

34:29

mean a company a lot of times , you know , usually doing that

34:31

time is back , some like you know , kind

34:33

of people thinking , oh , it's not the same anymore . Maybe I don't like it as much

34:35

. And that time is also challenging time

34:37

for me because my first visa run out , the working

34:40

holiday visa . So I I apply

34:42

for my current visa , which is

34:44

like a Global

34:46

talent visa , which is like for people

34:48

who are working in professional field . They can

34:51

apply For some of the field

34:53

. I mean , I'm not government agent , I'm not

34:55

going to give too much information . If people are interested they

34:58

can look for official , you

35:03

know information from the government website . But I have to be honest . But

35:05

I have to apply for my current visa

35:07

. So luckily I

35:09

am already quite active in

35:11

the In in the tax scene

35:13

. Right , I was endorsed by some people

35:16

. Some of them are thanks for

35:18

the friend I made on my journey . Then

35:20

I was able to proven , you

35:23

know , my my ability

35:25

somehow . I mean , I

35:27

still found it fascinating that I was

35:30

. I still think I'm extremely lucky and I got

35:32

a lot of help from lots of good people

35:34

in the community . So

35:37

I was , you know , I was granted the visa

35:39

and then at that time I was like , okay

35:41

, I

35:43

, because the visa gives me

35:45

freedom to choose to

35:48

, because I'm not . It's not like a worker visa

35:51

that you're tied to your employer is a visa that

35:53

you just need to be in the tech field , which I

35:55

am , I'm still am nowadays . And then I was

35:58

like , okay , do I want to work for this new

36:00

employer which is like , because now it's a Spanish

36:03

company , and my , my boss , who I

36:05

like a lot during the time , and like he moved

36:07

to Spain and you know he's not directly

36:09

, you know well , he's still

36:11

I think he was still managing the team when I left

36:13

, but it's like not and you know

36:15

, not in the proximity with

36:18

us . So I was like , oh , a lot of things

36:21

change is some people left as well ? And

36:23

I was like , oh , I

36:25

don't like it as much . So I was like , okay

36:27

, let's , let's look somewhere else . And

36:30

I found a new role . So

36:32

, okay , at that time , you know , the

36:35

, the , the time was good . So a lot of company

36:37

are hiring and and I want to try

36:39

working for startup as well , because I , like

36:41

I said , my character is like , oh , I love freedom , I

36:43

too much structure , too much paperwork , I don't like that

36:45

. So , yeah , imagine

36:47

you have to use , like this library and you

36:49

get like , you know you need to get approval and

36:52

stuff right . So work

36:54

for startup , maybe is is less

36:56

bureaucracy , is good . So I

36:59

try . But then I also

37:01

hover around a little bit because I think

37:03

I was having some crisis during the

37:05

time , I was having some personal

37:08

issues and it kind of made me

37:10

very hard to juggle between , like you

37:12

know , starting also , I'm like

37:14

I have renewed my visa , I'm starting a new life

37:16

, and then I was like , oh , I'm , I

37:18

have , you know , all these new job

37:20

and things and also personal issues and

37:23

stuff . So it's very , very

37:25

difficult and I

37:27

changed job quite a lot during the time

37:29

because of that . So

37:32

, yeah , so , like

37:34

like I said earlier before , I do have friends

37:36

in the community who helped me a lot . Every time

37:38

I was like , you know , oh , I have

37:40

to look for a new role . They were like , okay , do

37:42

this , do that . And then one of

37:44

my friends was like , you know , come and

37:46

use my office , like really , so

37:49

yeah , yeah , there's like a lot , of

37:51

, lots of support from

37:53

the community so I survive during the hard time

37:56

. And and

37:58

then back to the story of why I changed

38:00

my career . So I so

38:03

one of the jobs that I got and then

38:05

I also have a conversation

38:07

with my manager is

38:09

is a very similar conversation like

38:12

the one I had with my supervisor back

38:14

in the time . So my manager

38:16

was like grabbed me into a room

38:18

and say like you have been to too many conferences

38:20

and I'm like sorry

38:23

, but I have . You know they

38:25

, you know they have chosen my proposal

38:27

. I feel like I have a responsibility to go

38:29

and I use up all my holidays

38:31

and stuff . And then my boss was like you're

38:33

not allowed to go and

38:35

you know , now it's basically put

38:37

on the table , is like this job or keep

38:40

going to other conferences . And then , yeah

38:43

, so I was like for me

38:45

, I go through a lot of difficulty

38:48

. I changed job a lot . I go through a lot of difficulty

38:50

because I got support from my

38:52

community . So if you now

38:54

tell me to choose a job or a community , of course

38:57

I would choose the community , all right . So I was

38:59

like , okay , I'm not the happy here anyway

39:01

. So I'm like , okay , I will resign

39:03

. So that's my , that's my decision . So

39:07

yeah , and it's

39:09

really tough during the time . And then it

39:11

also sparked me a thinking like what

39:13

I really want to do , because a

39:16

lot of times when I was doing my data science

39:18

work , I was not really happy . I

39:20

was like it's nice to

39:23

sometimes not like rewarding

39:25

as you expected , because you

39:28

know sometimes you write some code . If it works , of

39:30

course it's great . But a lot of times

39:32

, because you know you , because

39:35

data science is not just like writing

39:37

a code , a small

39:39

application that works , where you have to work with a

39:41

lot of people getting the data and then

39:43

collaborating , and then sometimes

39:46

, depending on your work environment

39:48

, there may be a lot of , you

39:50

know , knocking on doors in different department

39:52

, politics and stuff . So it's just

39:54

, yeah

39:57

, you can grind you down and so

40:00

it's not as rewarding as like , oh , you

40:02

know , like when I was a

40:04

kid , I write game and it works

40:06

. You know , it's not as rewarding as that . So I was

40:08

like , yeah , I don't really

40:11

like that . And and I feel like serving

40:14

the community is more rewarding . At that time

40:16

I was , you know , already going to speak

40:18

at various conferences . I was

40:20

running the VTOP , you know a

40:22

few . Actually at the time , yeah

40:26

, I really enjoy being

40:28

with the community . I feel like I

40:30

was welcome and all the thing that

40:32

I do is appreciated . So

40:35

, yeah . So I

40:37

was like , okay , how

40:39

can I make that my job ? How can

40:42

I recreate that and make it into

40:44

somewhere that I can also make a living

40:46

? So , um

40:48

, and again

40:50

, because I got friends in the community

40:52

. Some of them are actually developer

40:55

Africa . So

40:57

I asked them oh so

40:59

what's your job about ? And then they say , oh

41:01

yeah , my job is , like you know , including being

41:03

here and talk to people going to conferences

41:05

. I was like how can I have a job like that

41:09

? So

41:11

, yeah , a lot , of , a lot of people

41:13

do keep advice and do help and

41:15

I discovered there's a mailing

41:18

list that was like for

41:20

developer Africa so

41:23

some of some of the thing . Like I know , there's a Slack

41:25

group that you have to prove and that you are

41:27

developer Africa to join because

41:29

they have some policy of like they don't want too much

41:31

noise in it . So I was like I can't join that

41:33

one at that time . But there's a mailing list

41:35

. I could join because we're mailing list . You just

41:37

get an email once in a while , right ? So it was okay

41:39

, I joined that mailing list and

41:42

so they would have

41:44

a section in that mailing list of like , oh

41:46

, that's our jobs . I was like , oh , I will just

41:48

apply for all of them when I see them right . Just

41:51

is again

41:53

like it go back to the time when

41:55

I was looking for my first

41:57

job in data science , the

42:00

data analysis , data science . I

42:02

ended up being a data scientist because I

42:04

got promoted in my first job , but anyway

42:07

, like it was very hard to

42:09

go to a new field and then without

42:11

the credentials of like , oh , I've done that before

42:14

, right , convince

42:16

people to trust you that you can do that , even

42:18

though I think I was kind of partly doing

42:21

the job because I was already speaking at conferences and

42:23

stuff and then understand

42:25

how , like tech community works . But still

42:27

, you know you have to , you have

42:30

to apply it and then you know

42:32

a lot of them won't even have time

42:34

to see you . I was lucky that

42:36

there was a start up at the time that they were looking

42:38

for developer advocate

42:40

and then they

42:44

so that that that was

42:46

actually work for them for almost three years . So

42:48

, yeah , it was , it

42:51

was again , I feel very lucky that

42:53

I have

42:56

some interview with them . And then they

42:59

, it clicks because you know and

43:01

this great that I was

43:03

like , you know , so

43:05

their head office is in Ireland and at

43:07

that time I was speaking at Pai Kona Island

43:10

. So I was like , okay , I would go and meet you at

43:12

, like , you know , meet the team in

43:14

Ireland . So , yeah

43:17

, so it's . So . It is

43:19

a very , very small startup , so that's why they have time

43:21

to like , really , you know , trying

43:24

to see who actually

43:26

can work with the team . And

43:28

you know , at the time

43:30

I was like , okay , I , I

43:33

was like they don't have any

43:35

people who are special

43:37

, like doing developer advocacy

43:40

or death row in that company . I was

43:42

like , okay , this is what I think you

43:44

should do . So I think , yeah , they agree

43:46

. And then we it ended up like I

43:48

have been leading the death row strategy and

43:51

then we go through the hard time to get us . Well , like

43:53

there was the pandemic time after I

43:55

started a few months , which is like doing

43:58

the traditional death row thing , going to conferences

44:00

, trying to speak to people , introduce them to this

44:02

technology and stuff . But then

44:04

, like you know , the pandemic hit . I was like , okay

44:06

, let's look at it positively

44:09

, let's look still look for things to do . We can't be

44:11

a sitting duck right . So I

44:14

ended up doing a lot of online things

44:16

, so

44:18

, yeah , and also the company is

44:20

doing a , so the product

44:22

is open source . So I was like able to

44:24

wear my open source hat more

44:27

. So at that time I was already

44:29

contributing to some libraries

44:31

, to pandas because my friend now

44:33

is the maintainer of pandas , like at

44:35

that time he was super passionate and then he started

44:38

this meetup of like oh , every now

44:40

and then we go sit together and this is written and contributed

44:42

to pandas . I was like that's great . So

44:44

I was already doing some contribution

44:47

not a lot , but during

44:49

the time I was working for this small startup

44:51

in Ireland that I was

44:53

able to lead one of their

44:56

projects . So I was a maintainer

44:58

for a while because of that . So

45:01

, yeah , it's really , really fun

45:03

. I also learned a lot . I would say that I'm

45:05

still like nowadays , if I look back , I would

45:08

, oh , I could have done a better job , I could have

45:10

done it better . But for

45:12

me , I learned a lot when I was maintaining

45:14

the project , starting the ground up and

45:16

stuff and build lots of things and

45:21

but yeah , pandemic kind of hindered

45:23

my I

45:26

would say that my progress kind of hindered a little bit

45:28

during the pandemic . But

45:30

maybe nowadays , if I look back , maybe

45:32

not , maybe things are progressing without me

45:34

knowing a lot , but

45:37

there were things that kind of put on

45:39

hold during the time of pandemic

45:42

. For example , I remember that

45:45

my friend and I already bought the plane

45:47

ticket to go to Python , us . We

45:51

got refunded , of course , but still , you

45:53

know , is a disappointment . I already applied

45:55

for the US visa because I need to apply

45:58

for the 10

46:00

year visa to go to America

46:02

you have to go through the interview

46:05

and stuff . So I already done all of those and

46:07

then just now

46:09

everybody have to stay at home .

46:11

Okay

46:13

, luckily it's for 10 years , so it's still

46:15

so

46:17

did you manage to go to Python US since

46:19

?

46:20

Yeah , I did . I did after the pandemic , when

46:23

it go back in person , and also

46:25

this year also happened . So I think I would

46:27

keep going . I

46:29

mean , I don't know , I hope that I

46:31

can . Well , my visa is still

46:33

valid .

46:37

Well , this is fantastic and it really looks

46:39

like you . There was

46:41

this community on the side of your

46:43

whole story and it's really converged

46:45

toward what you're doing right now . And then the

46:47

listeners can you see you ? But you've been speaking with a large

46:50

smile on your face about communities

46:52

and open source and contributing and being

46:54

help and helping , etc . So this really

46:56

sounds like a pinnacle of a story

46:59

, converging toward that point from

47:01

the from the beginning , even if you didn't know

47:03

it back then .

47:04

Yeah , I would say that I'm in a very

47:07

, you know , I'm very

47:09

glad that I'm in a much better place than when

47:11

I started . You know , after

47:13

graduation I was really lost . Now

47:15

I think that I found something that I really enjoy

47:18

and I I now have hope to

47:20

do what my career want to be

47:23

. Of course , there's some bump

47:25

in the rose , I think . At some point

47:27

I was like , oh , maybe I should try to

47:29

make my food time job

47:31

with developer rather than , you know

47:33

, in the community work

47:35

. That is not necessarily like

47:37

involving involving coding and

47:39

stuff like that . I was

47:41

struggling a little bit . I was like , oh , because , you know

47:44

, I was affected by

47:46

, you know , the economy

47:48

. I , you know I was

47:50

laid off a few months

47:53

ago because because

47:55

the company that I work for at the time , you know

47:57

, they have to make , you

47:59

know , make a cut of their , you

48:01

know , reduced the

48:04

amount of employee and I

48:06

was reduced . So

48:08

so I'm glad that

48:10

, like now , I get

48:12

, I get , you know , I get a role in

48:14

a community role still At . You know , a

48:16

few months ago I was like thinking , oh

48:19

, maybe in the in the bad times

48:21

in in , you know , now the

48:23

economy is not good . It's like you

48:25

know , working so a lot of company doesn't

48:27

put as much resources in

48:29

that realm and stuff because

48:32

you know it's not where

48:34

it's like essential compared to

48:36

, for example , someone who worked with a platform and

48:38

stuff . You know you can't really cut

48:40

everybody in that , but I've

48:42

seen stories of like the whole DEFRAO

48:45

team was cut to bare bone like , or

48:47

even not existence , so

48:50

that that could happen , and you feel

48:52

like , oh , maybe maybe the

48:54

you know I think it resonate

48:57

with a lot of people who work in DEFRAO

48:59

is like , oh , maybe we should go back

49:01

to , you know , do some more . You

49:04

know production code kind

49:06

of thing . But then you know

49:08

I was glad

49:10

that I'm still in a community , in

49:13

a community role , which

49:15

I am very lucky and again

49:17

I think it helps , you

49:19

know . So people ask me how do you

49:22

get this job ? I was like , oh , actually

49:24

it go backs . Like earlier this year

49:26

I go to a conference and I met a friend I haven't

49:28

met for a while and then my friend told me to go to

49:30

another conference and I go to that conference

49:32

and I met someone and then that someone sent

49:34

me a message on LinkedIn when I was looking for

49:36

a job and I ended up landed in this

49:38

job because of that . You know it's . It's

49:41

the community . Again , the community is like my

49:43

life every single time .

49:44

So it's how did you get that job ? Well

49:46

, I invested 10 years of my life in

49:48

communities and that's how I got that job

49:51

. Yeah

49:53

, not just this fantastic story . And networking

49:56

is indeed very important and

49:58

helping out right

50:00

and left , sometimes open doors

50:02

and sometimes just feels right to do and you never know

50:05

which one it's going to be . So yeah

50:08

.

50:08

So I mean I still love coding

50:10

. I would now I still contribute open

50:12

source . And actually my manager was like

50:14

, oh , you don't have to stop doing that . I was like , okay

50:17

, yeah

50:20

, but I mean I I'm

50:22

, I'm still serving the Python community

50:25

. Of course now I have the volunteer

50:27

road of that . I was

50:29

elected , I was in trust to

50:31

serve the Python community . Of

50:33

course I will still do that . You

50:35

know , a lot of my time will be thinking

50:37

of that as well , especially

50:40

now . I'm really , I'm

50:42

really passionate about how to make sure the

50:45

community is welcoming . That's

50:47

what I have been thinking

50:50

a lot , because I

50:54

was , I was very lucky I you

50:57

know when I started my community journey

50:59

. I have made some friends that they are

51:01

very supportive , like I

51:03

remember back in the AI club

51:05

and you

51:07

know we plan to , you know , go

51:09

to conference together so it feels less scary

51:11

. But why do we feel

51:13

scary when we go to a

51:16

conference ? When you , then I

51:19

was like it should not be the case that anybody

51:22

, if they want to go , they should not

51:24

be scary , they should feel that it's actually

51:26

nice to go . You just

51:28

have to take the first step to go to the unknown and

51:30

then you know , yeah , and it's nice

51:33

. I wanted to be

51:35

like that , so yeah .

51:37

I mean to that . I'm glad people have you as

51:39

a role model for that . That's really a really

51:42

big thing to have people to show you the way in

51:45

a new community . Looking

51:47

at the time box , we're already over our

51:50

time and it's been a fantastic ride , going

51:52

up and down and starting in

51:54

unexpected places , and that's where

51:56

I would like to go back for the year for the advice

51:59

I usually ask At

52:01

the very beginning . You mentioned somebody

52:03

telling you well , you'll always

52:05

be able to come back to computer science afterward

52:07

, so you should maybe go to physics . Is

52:10

this something that you would still advise

52:13

people to do , going into a different field

52:16

and then coming back to computer science if they feel like it

52:18

?

52:19

I feel like , from

52:22

my life experience I may be wrong

52:24

, it's just I just stay from same , from my

52:26

perspective , that don't

52:29

you know there's a lot of things you can't

52:31

expect ? There's . No , you know , there

52:34

is very few things , I won't say no

52:36

, but a very few things that , like you , absolutely

52:38

can't do it , like

52:40

at different stages of your life . You

52:43

know , I've seen , you know , a granny become a . You

52:45

know , you know ballerina not

52:47

professional one , of course but , like you know , don't

52:50

limit yourself . I mean , if you

52:53

want to go for it is not

52:55

, you know you're opening a door

52:57

doesn't mean that you close many more doors , it

52:59

doesn't . It's not like that . You

53:02

can still come back and stuff . So , even if nowadays

53:04

someone was like , oh I

53:06

, I studied computer science , now can

53:08

I do physics ? I was like , well

53:11

, you may not , you know , you

53:13

may not be applying to be a professor , but if you

53:15

, if you have your skills as a

53:17

you know computer scientist

53:19

or an engineer , then you can maybe help

53:21

in their research

53:24

as an engineer and then start

53:26

from there to get to know more about that

53:28

. You know now , especially

53:31

when a lot of research needs data

53:33

, needs a lot of computational

53:35

power , well , if you have

53:37

that background , they love you , they need you . So

53:40

I don't think that

53:42

you know a lot of things are

53:44

connected and you just haven't realized

53:46

that yet . So yeah , yeah , so yeah .

53:49

I was highlight opening a door doesn't mean you

53:51

are closing the other ones . I love that , thank

53:53

you . Thank

53:56

you for this fantastic ride . Where would

53:58

be the best place to find you probably online

54:00

and continue the discussion with you .

54:03

Yeah , so I actually I conveniently

54:05

put all my social media in one place . That's

54:07

my website , so that's htbscheckdev

54:12

, so just my name check . C H E U K

54:14

dot deaf .

54:16

And I link to that in the show notes . Just

54:18

click on it and then you can follow

54:21

you on all the socials . Yeah , anything else you

54:23

want to plug in before we wrap ?

54:25

up . I

54:27

won't put too much advertisement

54:29

in here because I I'm

54:33

not sure about a lot of things

54:35

. You know , if you , if you keep an eye on my

54:38

social media , then you will see the most

54:40

recent update of what's

54:42

going on .

54:42

There you go , then follow

54:45

yourself for media , and this will

54:47

do the rest , chuck , thank you so

54:49

much .

54:50

Yeah .

54:52

And this has been another episode of the first journey and

54:54

we see each other next week . Bye , bye . Thanks

54:57

a lot for tuning in . I hope

54:59

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55:01

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55:54

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