0:00

I wanted to be an actress and now I

0:02

work on screens , I'm on stage

0:04

, I give interviews , I

0:06

do videos and , yes , the

0:08

last story is I have a pseudonym Spalato

0:11

. It's not my true name . I totally

0:13

invent it like actors . My

0:15

true name is very French , it's Perrier , which

0:18

is in English Perrier

0:20

, in Spanish Perrier it's . It

0:22

don't sound good . So it was when I entered

0:24

Codaball . I have this public profile and I was living

0:27

in Croatia . My partner is from Croatia

0:29

and we think , okay

0:31

, I have to find another name . That's

0:33

yes , and so we think

0:35

. In French , spalato is the ancient name

0:38

, the Roman name

0:40

, italian name of Split

0:42

. If you type Spalato on internet , you will see the

0:44

city of Split in Croatia , which is beautiful

0:47

, and I was living there at this time . So

0:49

this is where my name come from

0:51

.

0:52

Hello and welcome to Developers

0:54

Journey , the podcast bringing you the making

0:56

of stories of successful software

0:58

developers to help you on your

1:00

upcoming journey . I'm your host , tim

1:03

Borghigno . On this episode , I receive

1:05

Alexandra Spalato . Alexandra

1:07

dipped her toes in many , many

1:10

industries , from pharmacy and

1:12

business to acting PR , investment

1:14

and web development . Finally

1:16

, I would say , as a dev , she wore many hats

1:19

as well , from freelance to entrepreneur , and

1:21

it's given her a fabulous mix of

1:23

experiences to bring to the table . She

1:26

currently rocks as a DevRel engineer at

1:28

StoryBlock , diving deep into

1:30

the Jamstack and headless architectures

1:33

. Alexandra , a warm welcome

1:35

to DevTourney .

1:36

Hello , thank you , I'm happy to

1:38

be here .

1:39

Oh , it's a pleasure to receive you here today

1:41

, but before we come to your story

1:43

, I want to thank the terrific listeners

1:46

who support the show . Every month , you

1:48

are keeping the DevTourney lights

1:51

up . If you would like to join

1:53

this fine crew and help me spend

1:55

more time on finding phenomenal

1:57

guests than editing audio tracks

2:00

, please go to our website

2:02

, devjourneyinfo and

2:04

click on the support me on Patreon

2:06

button . Even the smallest contributions

2:09

are giant steps toward

2:11

a sustainable DevTourney journey . Thank

2:14

you , and now back to today's

2:16

guest . So , as you know , alex , the show exists

2:19

to help the listeners understand what your story looked

2:21

like and imagine how to shape their own

2:23

future . So , as is usual

2:25

on the show , let's go back to your beginnings . Where

2:28

would you place the start of your DevTourney ?

2:30

I don't know exactly what the DevJourney working

2:33

earning my life as

2:35

developer , I would say 10 years ago . But

2:37

my first contact with

2:40

the web not even development

2:42

was in 2002 by sharing

2:44

an apartment . But I

2:47

have to go long before to tell you all

2:50

my path .

2:51

We're all about stories , so let's go there .

2:55

Okay , so long , long ago , I

2:57

wanted to be an actress . That's what I really

3:00

wanted and

3:03

perhaps this choice was because I

3:05

was very

3:07

shy when I was a child

3:10

but I was extrovert and that was really

3:12

hard to

3:15

live because I wanted contact

3:17

with people and I'm energized by people

3:19

etc . But I was not confident . So I think

3:21

that was . I was appealing to be on stage , not

3:23

to struggle with

3:26

that . But

3:29

before that , before going to that , my

3:31

family wanted to make studies

3:34

etc . Andi studied pharmacy

3:37

and , to

3:39

be honest , I was not really interested . So

3:42

I was going to the university

3:45

and partying

3:47

a lot , I was going out a lot

3:49

, etc . And learning before

3:51

exams . But

3:54

now , if I go back to

3:56

that , I realize that

3:59

I didn't learn about pharmacy . I

4:01

think many people know much

4:03

more than me about , about

4:06

medicaments etc . Because

4:08

they get sick etc . I never get sick

4:10

. I think I ate so much pharmacy

4:12

that I don't be sick , so I don't

4:15

have to go . So

4:17

I'm never , never sick . And

4:19

but I

4:22

was learning . I was

4:24

studying just one month before my exam

4:26

, generally in summer , because I

4:29

just waiting the last , the last chance

4:32

, and I think that teach me to

4:34

, to learn to be a fast learner

4:36

. Oh , I was perhaps a fast learner before

4:38

, but it made it

4:40

really in my , my idea into

4:42

how to learn something quickly

4:45

and to enter that and crunch it . You know

4:47

, and I didn't was not really

4:49

passionate about pharmacy , but

4:51

I I realized that something

4:53

I love is the process of learning

4:56

and I was good at that

4:58

. So , yes , I love learning things

5:00

. I realize that there . So

5:03

after that I did a business

5:05

school , because

5:07

family pharmacy was business school

5:09

, etc . And then

5:11

I was not learning one month before

5:13

, but one week before

5:16

, because many things like marketing etc . Are finally

5:18

quite in Twitter . So

5:21

and then I went

5:23

, I failed the exams because

5:26

it was a question I didn't know

5:28

, and I realized my life

5:30

Suddenly . I realized that I was

5:32

at my exam table . I remember that

5:34

and realize , oh , but that's now

5:37

, it's not just shooting and okay

5:39

, enjoying my life and learning one

5:41

month before you know it's really

5:44

working at a company or something

5:46

and it's it's not what

5:49

, what I like , and

5:51

so and and I was not excited

5:53

anymore by pricing exams , by the challenge

5:56

, because I was I think I was liking the

5:58

challenge too , and so I was

6:00

not motivated and so I'm failing and

6:02

because of that I had six months of a

6:05

sort of hole and I went to Paris and

6:07

I went , I applied to a drama

6:09

school because that's what I wanted

6:12

to do and

6:14

I didn't come back to finish the

6:17

business school . So my

6:20

family was crazy and

6:24

and , yes , I loved

6:26

it , but I didn't succeed . I think

6:28

it was not my path and I was a very bohemian

6:30

life , trying things , meeting people . But

6:34

so also , I think , being

6:36

in this kind of life

6:38

, you are solving problems

6:41

. You are solving life problems because

6:43

it's quite bohemian and complicated

6:45

and it's creative and at the end , the

6:47

code is creation too . So I

6:50

was there in Paris , I did many things . I

6:53

wanted to be a casting director then

6:55

and of course , I have to work my life

6:57

so to do other things and

7:00

so I was mostly

7:02

in sales jobs

7:04

because I'm more , I'm

7:08

more contact person

7:11

, communication person , that I'm not practical

7:14

at all . So even even you

7:16

know , jobs like working

7:18

at restaurants and things were not for me , so only

7:20

only sales and communication

7:23

. Pharmacy I tried because I had

7:25

the diploma . I don't , I didn't finish the thesis

7:27

but I could work in a pharmacy , but

7:29

it was really , really not for me . It

7:31

was . I was literally counting

7:33

, counting

7:36

the seconds . Yes

7:39

, I remember that I have an internship and I was counting

7:41

the second , so I really hated that . So

7:44

it was terrible . And and

7:48

so in 2002 , I

7:50

was sharing an apartment and

7:52

my roommate was a photographer

7:55

, but he was earning his life by

7:57

doing websites . Okay

8:00

, yes , and so

8:02

what ? I didn't know what to do with my life

8:04

. At this moment , I see the actress thing , where it

8:06

was quite complicated to stick to that

8:08

and I

8:11

knew I wanted to be independent

8:13

. I didn't want to work for a company at this moment , and

8:16

and and that I love learning , and so

8:18

I I asked him oh , how much money

8:21

you make ? It was not much and so much money , but for me

8:23

it was enough at this time . And

8:25

, okay , you were working , working from home

8:27

, and you have learned by yourself . Yes

8:29

, oh , so I can do it , and

8:32

I have a computer . I

8:34

have a shitty computer that I buy

8:36

from nothing . So

8:38

I was not , I was . I have nothing

8:40

around about tech , about computers

8:43

, et cetera . In my life I had no people

8:45

in tech . No , it was really

8:47

something totally out

8:49

of my , my universe at this moment

8:51

. But I

8:53

enter into that with

8:56

dream weather in visual

8:58

, because I was not thinking about coding

9:01

. You know it's . I'm not a math

9:03

person . Yes , I'm not a math person . I

9:05

didn't do puzzles , I even don't

9:07

drink coffee , so

9:09

so

9:12

, and I'm a right brain , I think is

9:14

more than the left one . And

9:17

and so it was fun

9:19

because I'm a creative yes , I'm a right brain , I'm a creative

9:21

. So I said , wow , I can create things . And I

9:23

remember passing the whole night

9:25

creating a fake websites about my

9:27

partner , you know crazy things , et cetera , and

9:30

and and , because I was hooked by

9:32

that , by creating something , and it was

9:34

a time we dreamed weather . We will have these

9:36

buttons . We know if , with this star that

9:39

was turning into . So I was trying

9:41

all this crazy animation , because

9:44

when you begin , you love them . You don't realize that this

9:46

is totally true . You'll

9:48

taste , develop later , and

9:51

but at this time I don't . I use it for

9:54

me , I , I , I learn HTML

9:56

templates too , but I didn't get into

9:58

code , perhaps I . I built some

10:01

websites , some for business

10:03

ideas I had and things like that

10:05

, but it was just the seed

10:07

, and so this was in 2002

10:09

. And then I did many things I want to

10:11

even bring

10:15

the investors in IPOs and things

10:17

and working at public relations

10:20

as assistant , and so that

10:22

this was in 2011

10:24

. And in this position

10:26

, that was really not fun . I

10:30

asked my boss

10:33

oh , you don't have a website . I can do it

10:35

for you . For 500 euros I can do a

10:37

website . And I did

10:39

it with weeks . It was

10:41

weeks in flash at this time . Okay

10:44

, but it's

10:47

a seed . I had reborn

10:49

and and

10:51

I I create something . That was really

10:54

nice and and

10:56

I was really hooked by that . And then I

10:58

discovered WordPress , and

11:01

WordPress , as you know

11:03

, you don't know come with many pre-built

11:06

themes , et cetera . And in the

11:08

beginning , when I discovered that was like , wow

11:11

, this is how it works . It was like , like

11:14

you know , taking out the wheel of

11:16

something , oh , that's how you do it . And

11:18

I was hooked with that . At all my free time , I

11:21

was passing it , taking a theme from WordPress

11:23

and and trying to build something and

11:26

, yeah , it works . And learning

11:28

a bit of HTML and

11:30

and beginning to do websites

11:34

for actors , singers and

11:36

people like that . And

11:39

and then , yes , the change

11:41

, the chance was she was

11:43

working with a , with

11:45

a jeweler , and the communication

11:48

agency from the jeweler would become friends

11:50

and one day I had

11:52

this guy on the phone and say , hey , I'm

11:55

doing . You know , I'm selling some websites

11:58

with WordPress , et cetera . I say , oh , how

12:00

have you done it ? But I have learned . And

12:02

oh , but I will need you , and

12:04

so quickly . After

12:06

I was working with this agency , but

12:08

as freelancer because I wanted to be freelancers I

12:10

was working from home and

12:13

my work was just to implement

12:15

the WordPress theme . It

12:19

tell me , okay , take the theme , implement it

12:21

with this , this feature , and make a tutorial

12:23

for the interns . So I was doing

12:26

that . So it was six months after I began . I

12:28

was earning my life with

12:30

that equity of PR agency and I was already

12:33

earning my life , but

12:35

then I get bored

12:37

of working with films and

12:40

so , welcome to hello

12:42

to CSS , a little bit CSS . And I

12:44

remember it was in 2012 and the

12:47

first time I took a logo

12:49

and I put it from the semi was on the

12:51

right and they need it in the

12:53

middle , and I put it in the middle of an 2 CSS

12:55

. I was wow , that's amazing

12:58

. I was amazed just by

13:00

that . And again

13:02

, it was discovering something new and

13:04

that thing , it's in development

13:06

. For me is all like that . You think

13:08

something oh , how

13:11

to do that ? And you discover how to do it is wow

13:13

. And then , okay , it becomes

13:15

something common and you need more . It's

13:18

like a drug at the end , you know , because you need more

13:20

and more and more and to

13:22

not get bored , because I'm

13:25

quickly bored and

13:28

so , yes

13:30

, so that that was with

13:32

CSS . And then I get bored of working

13:34

with WordPress themes , of course , so I

13:40

learned how to build

13:43

WordPress theme with PHP

13:45

. I don't like PHP

13:47

, but well , it was only front and PHP , so I

13:49

was really front end and

13:53

and after that I quit

13:55

this agency and I entered in Codébol

13:57

, which is a platform for

13:59

WordPress experts . It

14:02

was just beginning at this time now entering is really

14:04

complicated , but it was in 2014

14:06

. It was easier , it was a beginning

14:08

and that was great because

14:10

I was really beginning . But , yes

14:13

, I was good at design . That's

14:16

the summer before

14:18

beginning really with

14:21

the web . I pass it

14:23

looking tutorials at Photoshop , so I have

14:25

the eye for design . Naturally , I'm

14:27

not a designer because I don't master the tools

14:29

. I prefer development because it's like giving

14:31

life to things . But

14:34

it

14:36

gives me an advantage as freelancer because you

14:38

, you know how to make

14:40

things nice , and that's

14:42

a big advantage . And to enter in Codébol

14:45

, I made a website with a builder , you

14:47

know , because I was not into PHP

14:49

but it was . It was really nice in colors

14:51

and things and it was creative . So I

14:53

entered in Codébol and then I have clients from

14:55

all over the world

14:57

because

14:59

I was paying well , etc . And

15:01

and that was , yes , a beginning

15:04

of beginning really more professional

15:06

and building custom things . And

15:08

I ended up building custom WordPress

15:10

theme , really advanced , with a custom back

15:12

office and everything . I was not using

15:14

pre-made themes at all

15:17

. I didn't like it and

15:19

and of course , I get bored just

15:23

before we go to the after boredom so

15:25

I mean you mean you .

15:26

You gradually added more

15:28

and more and more to your theme building . At first

15:30

it was very much theme

15:33

tweaking , taking a thing that already

15:35

exists and just changing stuff and adding a little bit and

15:37

then in the end it was not just the

15:40

theme but WordPress as a whole ecosystem of plugins

15:42

and really making the

15:44

theme work with a plugin , and actually the

15:46

whole spectrum of customizing WordPress .

15:49

Yes , it's giving me a design , like

15:51

like I do if I do

15:54

in React now , but clients

15:56

was giving me a design and

15:59

I was building everything from

16:01

scratch , but in WordPress , with a WordPress back office .

16:03

Taylor made for the client

16:05

, taylor made builder and

16:07

and everything like that so

16:10

did you realize at that point , looking

16:12

back and saying , wow , all

16:14

the things I learned in in in little time and saying

16:17

, well , I , I saw

16:19

WordPress as a black box at the beginning and just

16:21

plugging stuff into it . And now I see the

16:23

. I see the , the box completely

16:25

open . I see how it's working

16:27

. I see the in the , now that I can find my way

16:30

easily in all this technology . Did you realize

16:32

that at that point ?

17:07

yes , I think it's our story as developers

17:10

and and with the importer

17:13

syndrome imposter syndrome , if you love

17:15

, if you , if we look at

17:18

all what we don't know and that other

17:20

people do , then we have the imposter syndrome

17:22

and of course I have it . But , yes , the

17:25

way is to . If you look back you say , wow , I

17:27

, I learned all that . And you

17:29

realize even more when you tell

17:31

the story of because I've done that

17:33

, that , that and that , because I think the , the knowledge

17:36

is comprising in your mind . You don't realize

17:38

that you know all that because it's being

17:40

part of you . And then if you have to

17:42

tell I know that , that , and then say , oh , I know

17:44

all that and it's , and then you realize

17:46

that it's , that it's a lot

17:48

, but yes , it comes gradually

17:51

and , and it's better for me

17:53

, it comes by working , so always

17:55

stretching , and I think also , what is

17:57

different it's as

17:59

you , you have an engineer formation , so you know

18:02

, learn everything and you

18:04

, you come .

18:05

But we're good for nothing

18:07

. That

18:10

that's what we say about engineers they're ready for

18:12

everything , but they're good for nothing , so yeah

18:14

, I don't know that .

18:16

Yeah , so we do . In my case , we

18:18

do a lot of things . And then anybody

18:20

was more going from the periphery to

18:22

the center . You know , I want , okay

18:24

, I have something that is pre-made and and

18:27

, yes , a black box . You're in the black box and

18:29

you are taking , like

18:31

an onion . You take , you're peeling the onion

18:33

and you want to go to the center

18:35

and to be free , also to have the freedom to

18:37

create whatever you want and

18:39

that's , uh , yes

18:41

, better than boredom , is that ? But I want

18:44

more . I want to do that . I want and

18:46

I don't want to have limits . Yes , I hate

18:48

limitations in in anything

18:50

, so I like freedom

18:52

. So , if I want freedom , I have to

18:54

learn to do it myself and not to be limited

18:57

by this of this from a

18:59

WordPress team or whatever this

19:01

is awesome , this is really cool .

19:03

So so you , you learned all of this

19:05

. You really peeled out the onion , as you

19:07

said , and then it stood the ins and outs

19:09

of WordPress , and at some point

19:11

you probably reached a plateau saying , okay , you know

19:14

, you know a lot of things , if

19:16

you want to know twice more , it will

19:18

take exponentially more time

19:20

to really go deeper , and that's

19:22

probably where boredom started to to emerge

19:24

again . That's where I cut you before .

19:26

So , yes

19:28

, I had also a

19:32

really complicated project , but with the toxic client

19:34

that the type of friends that you

19:36

have doing everything and then they do

19:38

Q&A for they

19:41

will they were loading literally an

19:43

image of super heavy and

19:45

I told them and they are , know you for

19:48

a little arrow on the Samsung phone , etc

19:50

. And re-itering new Q&A and not

19:53

letting you go for six months , and

19:55

and so I think , yes , that was the

19:57

plateau and and I

19:59

realized , oh , I want you to

20:02

learn more things , and

20:05

so I did a JavaScript bootcamp in 2018

20:08

how did you decide

20:10

on going for a javascript bootcamp at that point ? I

20:14

think I don't . I don't remember some

20:16

Twitter , somebody talked about bootcamps

20:18

and and I

20:20

begin to look at this and

20:24

some something , oh , I want

20:26

to do this , and when I want something , I become quite obsessed

20:28

by it . It's Mono

20:30

Maniac , so you have . Perhaps that's

20:32

why I learned quickly , also because

20:35

I became obsessed by something

20:37

and and yes , and I

20:39

don't see anything else . And so

20:42

I found it one in Barcelona

20:44

, and it was in Spanish and

20:46

, as I'm born bilingual

20:49

, my mother is Spanish , my father is French , I'm born

20:51

in France and I live in Madrid now , and

20:53

so I speak English . Oh

20:56

, yes , one thing also that is important for

20:58

development it's I

21:02

have lived in Andalusia 15 years ago and

21:04

when I arrived there , my English

21:07

was basic , the English for school

21:09

. As French people , as you know

21:11

, we are not the better education

21:14

in English . So

21:16

, yes , I have this basic English , but

21:19

I was in Andalusia , by the coast , in

21:21

a place where there

21:24

was people , english people there from 20

21:26

years that don't speak Spanish . So I came back

21:28

after three years there . I came back

21:30

fluent in English . Yes

21:35

, and without believe it or not , without that

21:38

I will not be there today , because

21:40

I was not realizing you really need English

21:42

for that and well

21:45

, that's been very limiting . In all the courses

21:47

I take online were

21:49

in English , but this

21:51

boot camp was in Spanish and say , okay , it's to

21:54

have less load on

21:56

my mind . You know there is already

21:58

so much things to learn that doing

22:01

it in one of my native language it's easier

22:04

. So that's why I choose this one in Barcelona . And

22:06

it was full stack , node and react . So

22:10

, yes , three months full

22:12

time and , yes , it was really good , because

22:14

the boot camps you are totally immersed

22:18

. You can do it online , but being

22:20

live , you cannot think

22:23

about anything else . It's

22:26

really an immersion . I even was

22:28

wasn't able to think about

22:31

WordPress or things , because your

22:33

mind is turned on this and

22:37

, yes , you learn faster

22:39

. It's an immersion . So

22:43

after that , most of my colleagues at the boot

22:45

camp were getting jobs . I

22:47

was not there to get a job . I was there

22:49

to not get bored , to

22:53

learn more things , and

22:55

but after that , yes , I learned

22:58

, react and say , okay , what I'm going to do

23:00

now and at this time in 2019

23:03

and the really the hype was

23:06

with Gatsby , so everybody was in

23:08

Gatsby , so I dive into

23:10

Gatsby and all

23:14

begin . Yes , I never took at conference at this time

23:16

and I had my friend , zach Gordon

23:19

, so that Gordon was a teacher , very

23:21

well known teacher , in now he's not yet

23:23

retired from tech in WordPress

23:26

and his by his

23:28

courses . He was in Team Treehouse that I learned

23:30

how to make WordPress

23:32

themes and Zach made

23:35

a course named JavaScript for WordPress

23:38

, because they announced

23:41

he has learned JavaScript

23:43

deeply because of Gutenberg , which

23:45

is built in React etc . And so he creates this course

23:48

. He is a very good developer

23:50

, but also a very good communicator and businessman

23:53

and speaker , and

23:56

many people that have passed

23:58

by his course and I was on his course and

24:01

he was organizing every year conference JavaScript for

24:03

WordPress and I was learning Gatsby

24:05

. And so I write to him say , oh , perhaps

24:07

I can speak about Gatsby

24:09

at your , at your covc and with

24:12

WordPress . And oh , yeah , yeah , yeah

24:14

. And then we had a call and we meet in person

24:16

and at the end of our

24:19

meeting he said me oh , look

24:22

, I want to propose you something to build . I have

24:25

the project to build , uh , free

24:28

themes with free WordPress

24:30

theme and turn them into Gatsby

24:32

. Are you interested to work with me on that

24:34

? I say , oh , yes , yes , yes , I want that

24:36

. And , uh , that

24:38

was the beginning of really a new , a new

24:40

adventure , um

24:43

and uh . And so we built that

24:45

, together with other guys too , and

24:48

and Zach , yes , helped me a lot

24:50

, uh , personally , etc . Really

24:52

a nice guy . And after

24:55

that and I speak at his conference it

24:58

was in 2019

25:01

uh , online

25:03

, you went well . And

25:05

After that

25:07

, gatsby

25:09

write me on Twitter to be speaker

25:11

at Gatsby Days in London . And

25:14

the funny thing is , I took I have

25:16

already took my ticket to go to

25:18

Gatsby Days , to the conference I wanted

25:20

to go , and so they found

25:23

me and it was my

25:25

first in-person conference

25:27

in 2019

25:29

, the Gatsby Days in London . But it was really

25:31

, really great .

25:35

How did that talk go as the shy

25:37

extrovert that you described yourself

25:39

being ?

25:42

But I already cure the shy

25:44

thing with the drama school .

25:47

Oh , okay .

25:50

Yes , it's always there , you know . It's always

25:52

a wound somewhere and if

25:55

you find people , for example

25:57

, that are talking a lot , talking too much

25:59

I'm part of them it's because we

26:02

want to hide this shyness , so we

26:04

do too much and

26:06

we can seem very extrovert , but it's

26:08

a struggle to because we

26:10

are not somebody that is very confident and

26:13

secure . We'd be calmer , etc

26:15

. So you can find

26:17

this type of symptoms

26:19

. So , but yes , it

26:22

goes much better .

26:25

So that all went well .

26:28

Yes , but to

26:30

have been in drama school

26:32

of course make me much

26:34

more confident on stage and

26:37

the way of speaking , etc

26:39

. There is things that you don't forget

26:41

. I'm planning actually to perhaps

26:44

retake a drama school here in Madrid to

26:46

have fun and to improve

26:48

my speaker skills

26:51

, because I'm doing

26:53

a lot of talks now and

26:55

so , yes , but I

26:57

was amazed when Gensby called me for that . I

26:59

said wow , and

27:02

I had great time , it went well

27:04

. And one thing that I

27:06

remember speaking at conference

27:09

. I think it's great to

27:12

take out to cure the imposter syndrome

27:15

too , because you see the reaction of people

27:17

. You feel that people

27:19

are learning something from you and they

27:21

are happy and they come to see you and ask

27:23

questions . And

27:26

the most crazy was somebody

27:28

that created things , really

27:31

, really a great engineer and come to me oh

27:33

, your talk was great , etc . And he learned

27:35

things . And then you realize that what

27:37

you know is

27:39

not what they know and it's complementary

27:42

in my path in life . Yes , it's doing creative

27:44

things and it's not the same

27:46

that deep engineers that will

27:48

have perhaps will be better in

27:51

code , but perhaps I will have all the creative

27:53

ideas because who I

27:55

am and because of my life too . So it's two

27:57

different things , but the imposter

27:59

syndrome never goes totally away .

28:03

You just learned to live with it .

28:07

Yes , so that was my first conference

28:09

. That was great , and

28:12

yes , and

28:14

after that I

28:17

decided to create professional

28:19

Gatsby WordPress themes . So

28:23

not ?

28:23

the three ones you did with

28:26

.

28:26

DAQ , but your own

28:28

company to do that ? Yes , I

28:31

always wanted to create a product , to create

28:33

something against the creative thing . So

28:35

, that's something I always have in mind , and

28:38

so I did it with Paulina

28:40

, a colleague . She's

28:42

really good , she's a doctor

28:44

in math and super creative , and

28:47

DAQ was supposed to be the marketing , but DAQ

28:49

retired and you realize that I

28:52

have a lot of fun creating it . They are beautiful

28:54

, but

28:56

without marketing

28:58

.

28:59

You don't say so

29:01

you had

29:03

to do marketing on your own .

29:05

No , because I don't like marketing .

29:06

So it's

29:08

not my thing .

29:10

I don't have the money to invest , to

29:12

hire I had no . I had a woman who

29:14

joined me , Bridgette . She was doing Twitter

29:17

, but she has to earn her life

29:19

too . She cannot put full

29:21

time on that . So

29:23

at the end I mentioned it a

29:26

time . But then when I entered Storyblocks , I stopped

29:28

it because I was making one sale a month

29:30

, and so it

29:33

was exciting . Somebody said , oh , buy

29:36

it in Japan . And so it

29:38

was exciting to know it that you have created

29:40

something and somebody on the other side of the

29:42

world buy it . And I learned

29:45

a lot by building that

29:47

. So I never regret to have done it , but

29:49

I learned that if one day

29:51

I create something , I will not do it alone

29:53

. I need a business partner . I

29:56

can learn it , but it's not my thing , it's not something

29:58

I enjoy . So

30:02

you cannot be everything , and

30:04

building a business has

30:06

several parts

30:09

. So I'm building

30:11

a block template now in Storyblocks

30:14

for the community . So I'm retaking that

30:16

, you know , but inside the company .

30:21

So how did you decide on the next step when

30:23

you realized , okay , this Gatsby theme business

30:25

is not working

30:27

as well as you expected . You need to do a next step

30:29

. How did you went at solving this ?

30:34

problem At this moment . When I did the Gatsby

30:36

theme , I was stealing , being a freelancer

30:38

. When I was a freelancer

30:40

, but more specialized in the headless

30:43

WordPress world Using

30:45

WP . Graphql is a plugin

30:49

for WordPress . Create

30:51

a GraphQL API . So I was a lot in this

30:53

community and I

30:55

made several projects

30:58

as a freelancer in

31:00

headless WordPress , especially

31:03

once they called me because I saw my

31:05

product and it was transferring

31:07

WordPress blog . It was

31:09

music tech . It was a beautiful blog

31:12

with I don't know 8,000 posts

31:14

transferring it to Gatsby but keeping

31:16

the back office in WordPress . I like my design

31:18

too and it was close to what they do and

31:21

they have creative

31:23

. The

31:26

brand design was

31:28

there , but I have to create the design too . I did it in

31:30

code with Tailwind

31:33

and so it was really one of my favorite projects

31:35

because it was creative . The team was great

31:37

. It was also developers , so they will take back on

31:40

other things and the

31:43

website was beautiful . So it was really one of

31:45

my favorite projects and they came from

31:47

the . They contacted

31:49

me because they saw my website

31:52

for the themes , so

31:54

that was nice . So I

31:56

was continuing both and hoping

31:59

that the moment it take

32:01

off , et cetera . But

32:03

no , the next step came because

32:07

it was just 10 years . I was freelancing , so it's

32:09

like , yes , it's fun because it's

32:11

really a decade and 22,

32:14

. And my , my project I get become

32:17

bigger . So

32:19

when you have something that

32:22

can be toxic and I was and

32:24

you go to the bigger step , you can underestimate

32:27

it and a project can become

32:29

toxic , and that happens . I have two

32:31

toxic project 2021 . I remember

32:34

the summer 21 . I

32:36

think I didn't even take weekends

32:38

, I was just turning crazy with

32:40

this project . Yes , it was . That's

32:43

how you find out . So , yes , you talk

32:46

about hiring people . I was

32:48

people working with me and

32:51

I find a collaborator because

32:55

I was stuck in this thing and

32:57

everybody has let me down and

33:00

and so I find on

33:02

discord this , this

33:04

guy solve a bug

33:06

I have , and so we had . Because

33:08

if , if you ask from people's and you

33:10

have 20 people that came and

33:12

you don't , you don't know who to choose

33:14

and and and

33:16

so this guy we had a call is from India and

33:19

we had immediately great

33:21

feeling and and

33:24

his personality to it goes

33:27

with me and he really helped

33:29

me on this project , set my life on this project

33:31

at this end , at the point when I entered story

33:33

block one month after he entered to yes

33:37

, yes , yes , so we still in the same company

33:40

, etc . So it's really really a nice , nice

33:42

story and is amazing . He's just somebody

33:45

that can take any

33:47

documentation they don't know and a

33:49

few hours after he has a solution . So

33:51

it's yeah . Yeah , he didn't

33:54

do engineering . He's doing that

33:56

for three years , but I

33:59

think , yes , in India I talk with people , they

34:01

they have math education very

34:03

young and

34:05

I think it trains the brain , and another friend told me

34:08

also that they written language is so complicated

34:10

that it trains the mind to understand it

34:12

. So , okay , so there

34:14

is yes , some when there are brilliance

34:16

are really really good and it's always

34:18

amazing me . So so

34:21

, yes , I had this toxic project

34:23

that's 2021 and

34:25

2022 . Then it

34:27

was a cancelled project after cancel

34:30

project . So I had

34:32

10 years flowing . I didn't do

34:34

marketing's projects that were just

34:36

flowing by contacts and things

34:39

and and it was easy . I never

34:41

, I never had to buy

34:43

my friends like was . I don't know

34:45

if I , if 2022 was bad luck

34:47

or if the 10 years before was huge

34:50

luck , because

34:52

I never had a plan or make marketing or

34:54

anything . So I

34:57

think the next step would have been to have

34:59

an agency . The way I was going

35:02

okay

35:04

, and I believe in science

35:06

and things like that , and I think if

35:08

I realized now being an agency would

35:10

have been an ego of things . You know

35:12

, if I business , etc

35:14

. But if I realize what I like to do

35:17

, I like learning , I love

35:19

, I love creating and I love

35:21

communicating . I don't , like

35:23

, you know , running after clients , doing marketing and

35:26

and managing

35:28

and managing people . You know it's not

35:31

what I love to do . I love to

35:33

create things and learn things

35:35

. So I think it would have been the

35:37

the wrong path , almost this

35:40

way . So

35:42

it's like the sign okay , no , no , that's

35:44

not the way you have to go , so we are going to cut you

35:46

the money and you are going to go to another path

35:48

. Now it's time . So this really , I really

35:50

take the message like that and

35:53

and I've

35:55

been asked to be there I was asked

35:57

to be developer relation in 2020

36:00

after I made

36:02

my talks , etc . By frontity . Frontity

36:04

was a react

36:06

framework for , exclusively

36:09

for WordPress , and

36:11

now they have been bought by automatic and not

36:13

the framework , but the team the team is working

36:16

on on Gutenberg and

36:18

they are from Spain and so they contact

36:20

me to ask me to be developer relation

36:22

, but at this time . Okay , I didn't

36:24

want to work for a company , I want to keep

36:26

free . And I was thinking

36:28

that developer relation was only about

36:31

writing documentation and

36:33

that's not something that wasn't enjoying

36:35

. So I say I even didn't think about

36:37

it . I say no , no , I'm not interested . And

36:40

so they asked me if I can recommend somebody and

36:42

I recommend my former teacher from my

36:45

job for my bootcamp

36:47

, which entered there

36:49

just before the pandemic and and

36:52

he's super happy and he's fun because we became

36:54

friends , because he was interested

36:56

about WordPress and I was in WordPress and now

36:59

he worked at automatic and me I work

37:01

in JavaScript .

37:01

So he worked in JavaScript , but he worked

37:04

at automatic .

37:05

So it's a . It's a fun story too

37:07

. So , yes

37:09

, I have been asked for that . Then

37:12

it was on WPngine's

37:14

hosting of WordPress . They contact me saying

37:16

me oh , we are searching for a

37:19

manager for developer relation and Jason

37:22

Langstorf has recommended you

37:24

. To what ? Why

37:28

me ? Jason

37:30

is super nice and and recommend

37:33

me , so he really appreciated , but I

37:35

didn't understand why he was recommending me

37:37

for that it's

37:39

. I said no , I didn't think about it . But

37:41

then 2022 was really

37:44

hard . I even I began to learn

37:46

web-free , but in

37:48

front end , and I had a project for a

37:50

NFT marketplace

37:52

, so it was going to save my my

37:55

finance . And then the crypto

37:57

crash came and the project

38:00

died . So it was really a bad situation

38:02

and Gatsby

38:06

was searching ahead of Debra . So I

38:08

apply and I pass for interview

38:11

, but you don't go from freelance to head , I imagine

38:13

. So it didn't work . And then

38:15

I met Debbie O'Brien . Perhaps you know

38:17

her . She's

38:19

at Microsoft and she lives in Mallorca

38:22

. I was living in Mallorca and somebody told me oh , you have

38:24

to meet Debbie , and we had lunch , not

38:26

for work , but just because we have two women

38:28

in tech in tech living in Mallorca

38:30

. And that was 10

38:32

days after the rejection from Gatsby

38:35

in June 2022

38:38

, and she told me , oh , you have

38:40

to apply at Storyblock and

38:44

at Prismic and I know them

38:46

. You can write from me , etc . And

38:48

this day I was working

38:51

on my team again , etc . And say , okay , I'm going to

38:53

do something else . I would Storyblock

38:56

and I apply the same day and

38:59

three weeks after I had an offer

39:01

. So , yes , I never applied

39:04

to a lot of companies , so , but I

39:07

only go from yes , that's a

39:09

things too because I see people

39:12

applying to many , many , many

39:14

things and I was not really

39:16

searching for a job . I was searching for some things

39:18

that bring me somewhere somewhere else

39:20

, but something I like

39:23

. So , gatsby , first , because it was , it

39:25

was organic for me , because I was building

39:28

product with them . I even did a video

39:30

for them as a contractor

39:32

, so it was

39:34

quite obvious . And Storyblock

39:36

, oh , okay , it's a headless CMS

39:38

, so this is where I come from . So

39:41

it was really , you

39:43

know , speaking to me and and

39:46

so it happens very , very quickly , instead of

39:48

applying to hundreds of things like I was very

39:50

lucky , but but

39:52

well , three weeks after I had an offer and

39:55

and I begin as a , as

39:58

developer relation just one year ago

40:00

, it was why it would be one year on the 25th

40:03

.

40:03

So so

40:05

yes and congratulations for them that's

40:08

how it happened are you still working

40:11

on the on the themes part or

40:13

no ? I keep it as yes

40:15

, I leave it .

40:16

In the beginning I was thinking even I put

40:19

on Twitter yes , don't worry , I will maintain

40:21

it , but no , it's , it was not

40:23

selling so and I was so occupied with

40:25

my , with my job , I

40:28

quickly realized I was not . He

40:30

cannot be profitable if I don't

40:32

have somebody dedicated

40:34

to marketing . You know , and take it , really

40:37

taking that . So I

40:39

let it die and but

40:42

I have to . The website is still

40:44

alive and it's because the website is really

40:46

nice and I believe myself , and

40:49

once or two I had somebody

40:52

who buy it and so I refunded immediately

40:54

. I have to take it down . I have to take the time and take

40:56

everything down because it's it's not

40:58

there anymore , but I

41:00

don't know at what time I decide okay , no

41:02

, I cannot , that's

41:05

not possible . Perhaps one day

41:07

, you know , and I'm learning a lot , you being a developer

41:10

in a company , and also I'm learning

41:12

being a freelancer

41:15

and alone you

41:17

learn what you can , but you have nobody that

41:20

teach you anything . So

41:24

it's you stretch , and

41:26

but you , yes , and

41:28

and so , being at the company , you , you

41:30

see bigger projects and bigger things and you learn

41:32

things . And also , yes , for

41:34

the imposter syndrome . You realize that you're

41:37

thinking sometimes . You think why I think like that

41:39

and people don't think like that , and you think that you're right

41:41

because other people approve you so

41:43

and you can find help also with colleagues

41:46

. So it's really refreshing after

41:48

working

41:51

alone for so long time .

41:55

Do you think there's something that that alexandre

41:58

who was learning

42:00

, always studying pharmacy

42:02

I don't want to say how many years

42:04

ago that

42:06

this person should have , should have , or

42:09

that you would have something to tell that person and

42:11

say don't worry about the future

42:13

because , don't worry , this

42:15

is not what you are going

42:20

to do .

42:20

Yes , yes , you will be . No

42:23

, a fan story . I always tell it's

42:25

. I wanted to be an actress and now

42:27

I work on screens , I'm

42:30

on stage , I give interviews

42:32

, I do videos

42:35

and I yes last story it's

42:37

I have a pseudonym Spalato

42:39

. It's not my true name . I totally

42:41

invented like actors . My

42:44

true name is very French , is Perrier , which

42:46

is in English Perrier

42:48

, in Spanish Perrier it's . I

42:50

don't sound good , so it was when I entered

42:53

Coddable . I have this public profile and I was living

42:55

in Croatia . My partner is from Croatia

42:57

and we think , okay

42:59

, I have to find another name . That's yes

43:02

, and so we think . In France , spalato

43:05

is the ancient name , the

43:07

Roman name , italian name

43:09

of split . If you type Spalato

43:12

on Internet , you will see the city of split in Croatia

43:14

, which is beautiful and I was living there

43:16

at this time . So this is where

43:18

my name come from .

43:21

It's fun to see how how things connect in

43:23

. You know how you can look at your story and say , hey

43:25

, I picked that from here and that from there and that from

43:27

there , and that's where am I now . I couldn't piece

43:30

that out before , but now I see . Yes

43:32

, absolutely .

43:33

Yeah , yeah , yeah . And I , when I , when

43:35

I begin with WordPress

43:37

and all that I was thinking to do small website

43:39

to actors , you know already is a theme

43:42

thing I was building digital themes

43:44

but it didn't work and but I never , ever

43:46

imagined to be where I

43:48

am now and speaking at conferences in the

43:50

US and and I

43:52

made a joke about that of my last co-op at Renix

43:54

. So so I

43:56

don't know what did happen next , because ten

43:59

years ago I didn't even

44:02

imagine doing

44:04

what I do now . So in ten years I don't

44:06

know where I will be , to be honest .

44:07

So we'll be keeping

44:10

an eye on you .

44:11

Being open , keep open to life , that's

44:13

. That's don't

44:15

put barriers . Keep open and play

44:18

and see what happened .

44:20

I'm into that , alexander . Thank you

44:22

so much . It's been a blast listening to a story . Thanks

44:25

.

44:26

So where would be the best place ?

44:28

where would be the best place to continue this discussion with

44:30

you ?

44:32

Twitter . Twitter Alexa

44:35

Dark on Twitter , not because I'm dark , because

44:37

my partner name is Darko , okay

44:41

, so well . Well , I'll link

44:43

to your .

44:47

Twitter account in the show notes directly . Yes

44:49

, just scroll down and click on it . Anything

44:52

else you want to plug in before we call it today ?

44:55

I think , yes , I think

44:57

I'm okay , can

44:59

continue for hours like that , because

45:01

I like as an extra what I like communicating

45:04

, talking with people .

45:05

so it was really nice speaking with you and thank

45:09

you and thank you for that , and

45:12

this has been another episode of the Opposite Journey and

45:14

we see each other next week . Bye , bye .

45:17

Bye .

45:18

Thanks a lot for tuning in . I

45:20

hope you have enjoyed this week's episode

45:22

. If you like the show , please share

45:25

, rate and review . It

45:27

helps more listeners discover

45:29

those stories . You can find the

45:31

links to all the platforms the

45:33

show appears on on our website devjourneyinfo

45:37

slash subscribe

45:39

. Creating the show every week takes

45:42

a lot of time , energy and

45:44

, of course , money . Will you please help

45:46

me continue bringing out those inspiring

45:48

stories every week by pledging

45:50

a small monthly donation ? You'll

45:52

find our Patreon link at

45:55

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45:57

donate . And finally , don't hesitate

46:00

to reach out and tell me how this week's

46:02

story is shaping your future

46:04

. You can find me on Twitter and at teamathabtimothep

46:09

, or per email info at

46:11

devjourneyinfo

46:13

. Talk

46:16

to you soon .