0:00

I wanted to be an actress and now I

0:02

work on screens , I'm on stage

0:04

, I give interviews , I

0:06

do videos and , yes , the

0:08

last story is I have a pseudonym Spalato

0:11

. It's not my true name . I totally

0:13

invent it like actors . My

0:15

true name is very French , it's Perrier , which

0:18

is in English Perrier

0:20

, in Spanish Perrier it's . It

0:22

don't sound good . So it was when I entered

0:24

Codaball . I have this public profile and I was living

0:27

in Croatia . My partner is from Croatia

0:29

and we think , okay

0:31

, I have to find another name . That's

0:33

yes , and so we think

0:35

. In French , spalato is the ancient name

0:38

, the Roman name

0:40

, italian name of Split

0:42

. If you type Spalato on internet , you will see the

0:44

city of Split in Croatia , which is beautiful

0:47

, and I was living there at this time . So

0:49

this is where my name come from

0:51

.

0:52

Hello and welcome to Developers

0:54

Journey , the podcast bringing you the making

0:56

of stories of successful software

0:58

developers to help you on your

1:00

upcoming journey . I'm your host , tim

1:03

Borghigno . On this episode , I receive

1:05

Alexandra Spalato . Alexandra

1:07

dipped her toes in many , many

1:10

industries , from pharmacy and

1:12

business to acting PR , investment

1:14

and web development . Finally

1:16

, I would say , as a dev , she wore many hats

1:19

as well , from freelance to entrepreneur , and

1:21

it's given her a fabulous mix of

1:23

experiences to bring to the table . She

1:26

currently rocks as a DevRel engineer at

1:28

StoryBlock , diving deep into

1:30

the Jamstack and headless architectures

1:33

. Alexandra , a warm welcome

1:35

to DevTourney .

1:36

Hello , thank you , I'm happy to

1:38

be here .

1:39

Oh , it's a pleasure to receive you here today

1:41

, but before we come to your story

1:43

, I want to thank the terrific listeners

1:46

who support the show . Every month , you

1:48

are keeping the DevTourney lights

1:51

up . If you would like to join

1:53

this fine crew and help me spend

1:55

more time on finding phenomenal

1:57

guests than editing audio tracks

2:00

, please go to our website

2:02

, devjourneyinfo and

2:04

click on the support me on Patreon

2:06

button . Even the smallest contributions

2:09

are giant steps toward

2:11

a sustainable DevTourney journey . Thank

2:14

you , and now back to today's

2:16

guest . So , as you know , alex , the show exists

2:19

to help the listeners understand what your story looked

2:21

like and imagine how to shape their own

2:23

future . So , as is usual

2:25

on the show , let's go back to your beginnings . Where

2:28

would you place the start of your DevTourney ?

2:30

I don't know exactly what the DevJourney working

2:33

earning my life as

2:35

developer , I would say 10 years ago . But

2:37

my first contact with

2:40

the web not even development

2:42

was in 2002 by sharing

2:44

an apartment . But I

2:47

have to go long before to tell you all

2:50

my path .

2:51

We're all about stories , so let's go there .

2:55

Okay , so long , long ago , I

2:57

wanted to be an actress . That's what I really

3:00

wanted and

3:03

perhaps this choice was because I

3:05

was very

3:07

shy when I was a child

3:10

but I was extrovert and that was really

3:12

hard to

3:15

live because I wanted contact

3:17

with people and I'm energized by people

3:19

etc . But I was not confident . So I think

3:21

that was . I was appealing to be on stage , not

3:23

to struggle with

3:26

that . But

3:29

before that , before going to that , my

3:31

family wanted to make studies

3:34

etc . Andi studied pharmacy

3:37

and , to

3:39

be honest , I was not really interested . So

3:42

I was going to the university

3:45

and partying

3:47

a lot , I was going out a lot

3:49

, etc . And learning before

3:51

exams . But

3:54

now , if I go back to

3:56

that , I realize that

3:59

I didn't learn about pharmacy . I

4:01

think many people know much

4:03

more than me about , about

4:06

medicaments etc . Because

4:08

they get sick etc . I never get sick

4:10

. I think I ate so much pharmacy

4:12

that I don't be sick , so I don't

4:15

have to go . So

4:17

I'm never , never sick . And

4:19

but I

4:22

was learning . I was

4:24

studying just one month before my exam

4:26

, generally in summer , because I

4:29

just waiting the last , the last chance

4:32

, and I think that teach me to

4:34

, to learn to be a fast learner

4:36

. Oh , I was perhaps a fast learner before

4:38

, but it made it

4:40

really in my , my idea into

4:42

how to learn something quickly

4:45

and to enter that and crunch it . You know

4:47

, and I didn't was not really

4:49

passionate about pharmacy , but

4:51

I I realized that something

4:53

I love is the process of learning

4:56

and I was good at that

4:58

. So , yes , I love learning things

5:00

. I realize that there . So

5:03

after that I did a business

5:05

school , because

5:07

family pharmacy was business school

5:09

, etc . And then

5:11

I was not learning one month before

5:13

, but one week before

5:16

, because many things like marketing etc . Are finally

5:18

quite in Twitter . So

5:21

and then I went

5:23

, I failed the exams because

5:26

it was a question I didn't know

5:28

, and I realized my life

5:30

Suddenly . I realized that I was

5:32

at my exam table . I remember that

5:34

and realize , oh , but that's now

5:37

, it's not just shooting and okay

5:39

, enjoying my life and learning one

5:41

month before you know it's really

5:44

working at a company or something

5:46

and it's it's not what

5:49

, what I like , and

5:51

so and and I was not excited

5:53

anymore by pricing exams , by the challenge

5:56

, because I was I think I was liking the

5:58

challenge too , and so I was

6:00

not motivated and so I'm failing and

6:02

because of that I had six months of a

6:05

sort of hole and I went to Paris and

6:07

I went , I applied to a drama

6:09

school because that's what I wanted

6:12

to do and

6:14

I didn't come back to finish the

6:17

business school . So my

6:20

family was crazy and

6:24

and , yes , I loved

6:26

it , but I didn't succeed . I think

6:28

it was not my path and I was a very bohemian

6:30

life , trying things , meeting people . But

6:34

so also , I think , being

6:36

in this kind of life

6:38

, you are solving problems

6:41

. You are solving life problems because

6:43

it's quite bohemian and complicated

6:45

and it's creative and at the end , the

6:47

code is creation too . So I

6:50

was there in Paris , I did many things . I

6:53

wanted to be a casting director then

6:55

and of course , I have to work my life

6:57

so to do other things and

7:00

so I was mostly

7:02

in sales jobs

7:04

because I'm more , I'm

7:08

more contact person

7:11

, communication person , that I'm not practical

7:14

at all . So even even you

7:16

know , jobs like working

7:18

at restaurants and things were not for me , so only

7:20

only sales and communication

7:23

. Pharmacy I tried because I had

7:25

the diploma . I don't , I didn't finish the thesis

7:27

but I could work in a pharmacy , but

7:29

it was really , really not for me . It

7:31

was . I was literally counting

7:33

, counting

7:36

the seconds . Yes

7:39

, I remember that I have an internship and I was counting

7:41

the second , so I really hated that . So

7:44

it was terrible . And and

7:48

so in 2002 , I

7:50

was sharing an apartment and

7:52

my roommate was a photographer

7:55

, but he was earning his life by

7:57

doing websites . Okay

8:00

, yes , and so

8:02

what ? I didn't know what to do with my life

8:04

. At this moment , I see the actress thing , where it

8:06

was quite complicated to stick to that

8:08

and I

8:11

knew I wanted to be independent

8:13

. I didn't want to work for a company at this moment , and

8:16

and and that I love learning , and so

8:18

I I asked him oh , how much money

8:21

you make ? It was not much and so much money , but for me

8:23

it was enough at this time . And

8:25

, okay , you were working , working from home

8:27

, and you have learned by yourself . Yes

8:29

, oh , so I can do it , and

8:32

I have a computer . I

8:34

have a shitty computer that I buy

8:36

from nothing . So

8:38

I was not , I was . I have nothing

8:40

around about tech , about computers

8:43

, et cetera . In my life I had no people

8:45

in tech . No , it was really

8:47

something totally out

8:49

of my , my universe at this moment

8:51

. But I

8:53

enter into that with

8:56

dream weather in visual

8:58

, because I was not thinking about coding

9:01

. You know it's . I'm not a math

9:03

person . Yes , I'm not a math person . I

9:05

didn't do puzzles , I even don't

9:07

drink coffee , so

9:09

so

9:12

, and I'm a right brain , I think is

9:14

more than the left one . And

9:17

and so it was fun

9:19

because I'm a creative yes , I'm a right brain , I'm a creative

9:21

. So I said , wow , I can create things . And I

9:23

remember passing the whole night

9:25

creating a fake websites about my

9:27

partner , you know crazy things , et cetera , and

9:30

and and , because I was hooked by

9:32

that , by creating something , and it was

9:34

a time we dreamed weather . We will have these

9:36

buttons . We know if , with this star that

9:39

was turning into . So I was trying

9:41

all this crazy animation , because

9:44

when you begin , you love them . You don't realize that this

9:46

is totally true . You'll

9:48

taste , develop later , and

9:51

but at this time I don't . I use it for

9:54

me , I , I , I learn HTML

9:56

templates too , but I didn't get into

9:58

code , perhaps I . I built some

10:01

websites , some for business

10:03

ideas I had and things like that

10:05

, but it was just the seed

10:07

, and so this was in 2002

10:09

. And then I did many things I want to

10:11

even bring

10:15

the investors in IPOs and things

10:17

and working at public relations

10:20

as assistant , and so that

10:22

this was in 2011

10:24

. And in this position

10:26

, that was really not fun . I

10:30

asked my boss

10:33

oh , you don't have a website . I can do it

10:35

for you . For 500 euros I can do a

10:37

website . And I did

10:39

it with weeks . It was

10:41

weeks in flash at this time . Okay

10:44

, but it's

10:47

a seed . I had reborn

10:49

and and

10:51

I I create something . That was really

10:54

nice and and

10:56

I was really hooked by that . And then I

10:58

discovered WordPress , and

11:01

WordPress , as you know

11:03

, you don't know come with many pre-built

11:06

themes , et cetera . And in the

11:08

beginning , when I discovered that was like , wow

11:11

, this is how it works . It was like , like

11:14

you know , taking out the wheel of

11:16

something , oh , that's how you do it . And

11:18

I was hooked with that . At all my free time , I

11:21

was passing it , taking a theme from WordPress

11:23

and and trying to build something and

11:26

, yeah , it works . And learning

11:28

a bit of HTML and

11:30

and beginning to do websites

11:34

for actors , singers and

11:36

people like that . And

11:39

and then , yes , the change

11:41

, the chance was she was

11:43

working with a , with

11:45

a jeweler , and the communication

11:48

agency from the jeweler would become friends

11:50

and one day I had

11:52

this guy on the phone and say , hey , I'm

11:55

doing . You know , I'm selling some websites

11:58

with WordPress , et cetera . I say , oh , how

12:00

have you done it ? But I have learned . And

12:02

oh , but I will need you , and

12:04

so quickly . After

12:06

I was working with this agency , but

12:08

as freelancer because I wanted to be freelancers I

12:10

was working from home and

12:13

my work was just to implement

12:15

the WordPress theme . It

12:19

tell me , okay , take the theme , implement it

12:21

with this , this feature , and make a tutorial

12:23

for the interns . So I was doing

12:26

that . So it was six months after I began . I

12:28

was earning my life with

12:30

that equity of PR agency and I was already

12:33

earning my life , but

12:35

then I get bored

12:37

of working with films and

12:40

so , welcome to hello

12:42

to CSS , a little bit CSS . And I

12:44

remember it was in 2012 and the

12:47

first time I took a logo

12:49

and I put it from the semi was on the

12:51

right and they need it in the

12:53

middle , and I put it in the middle of an 2 CSS

12:55

. I was wow , that's amazing

12:58

. I was amazed just by

13:00

that . And again

13:02

, it was discovering something new and

13:04

that thing , it's in development

13:06

. For me is all like that . You think

13:08

something oh , how

13:11

to do that ? And you discover how to do it is wow

13:13

. And then , okay , it becomes

13:15

something common and you need more . It's

13:18

like a drug at the end , you know , because you need more

13:20

and more and more and to

13:22

not get bored , because I'm

13:25

quickly bored and

13:28

so , yes

13:30

, so that that was with

13:32

CSS . And then I get bored of working

13:34

with WordPress themes , of course , so I

13:40

learned how to build

13:43

WordPress theme with PHP

13:45

. I don't like PHP

13:47

, but well , it was only front and PHP , so I

13:49

was really front end and

13:53

and after that I quit

13:55

this agency and I entered in Codébol

13:57

, which is a platform for

13:59

WordPress experts . It

14:02

was just beginning at this time now entering is really

14:04

complicated , but it was in 2014

14:06

. It was easier , it was a beginning

14:08

and that was great because

14:10

I was really beginning . But , yes

14:13

, I was good at design . That's

14:16

the summer before

14:18

beginning really with

14:21

the web . I pass it

14:23

looking tutorials at Photoshop , so I have

14:25

the eye for design . Naturally , I'm

14:27

not a designer because I don't master the tools

14:29

. I prefer development because it's like giving

14:31

life to things . But

14:34

it

14:36

gives me an advantage as freelancer because you

14:38

, you know how to make

14:40

things nice , and that's

14:42

a big advantage . And to enter in Codébol

14:45

, I made a website with a builder , you

14:47

know , because I was not into PHP

14:49

but it was . It was really nice in colors

14:51

and things and it was creative . So I

14:53

entered in Codébol and then I have clients from

14:55

all over the world

14:57

because

14:59

I was paying well , etc . And

15:01

and that was , yes , a beginning

15:04

of beginning really more professional

15:06

and building custom things . And

15:08

I ended up building custom WordPress

15:10

theme , really advanced , with a custom back

15:12

office and everything . I was not using

15:14

pre-made themes at all

15:17

. I didn't like it and

15:19

and of course , I get bored just

15:23

before we go to the after boredom so

15:25

I mean you mean you .

15:26

You gradually added more

15:28

and more and more to your theme building . At first

15:30

it was very much theme

15:33

tweaking , taking a thing that already

15:35

exists and just changing stuff and adding a little bit and

15:37

then in the end it was not just the

15:40

theme but WordPress as a whole ecosystem of plugins

15:42

and really making the

15:44

theme work with a plugin , and actually the

15:46

whole spectrum of customizing WordPress .

15:49

Yes , it's giving me a design , like

15:51

like I do if I do

15:54

in React now , but clients

15:56

was giving me a design and

15:59

I was building everything from

16:01

scratch , but in WordPress , with a WordPress back office .

16:03

Taylor made for the client

16:05

, taylor made builder and

16:07

and everything like that so

16:10

did you realize at that point , looking

16:12

back and saying , wow , all

16:14

the things I learned in in in little time and saying

16:17

, well , I , I saw

16:19

WordPress as a black box at the beginning and just

16:21

plugging stuff into it . And now I see the

16:23

. I see the , the box completely

16:25

open . I see how it's working

16:27

. I see the in the , now that I can find my way

16:30

easily in all this technology . Did you realize

16:32

that at that point ?

16:33

yes , I think it's our story as developers

16:37

and and with the importer

16:39

syndrome imposter syndrome , if you love

16:41

, if you , if we look at

16:44

all what we don't know and that other

16:46

people do , then we have the imposter syndrome

16:48

and of course I have it . But , yes , the

16:51

way is to . If you look back you say , wow , I

16:53

, I learned all that . And you

16:55

realize even more when you tell

16:57

the story of because I've done that

17:00

, that , that and that , because I think the , the knowledge

17:02

is comprising in your mind . You don't realize

17:04

that you know all that because it's being

17:06

part of you . And then if you have to

17:08

tell I know that , that , and then say , oh , I know

17:11

all that and it's , and then you realize

17:13

that it's , that it's a lot

17:15

, but yes , it comes gradually

17:17

and , and it's better for me

17:19

, it comes by working , so always

17:21

stretching , and I think also , what is

17:24

different it's as

17:26

you , you have an engineer formation , so you know

17:28

, learn everything and you

17:30

, you come .

17:31

But we're good for nothing

17:33

. That

17:36

that's what we say about engineers they're ready for

17:38

everything , but they're good for nothing , so yeah

17:41

, I don't know that .

17:42

Yeah , so we do . In my case , we

17:44

do a lot of things . And then anybody

17:46

was more going from the periphery to

17:48

the center . You know , I want , okay

17:51

, I have something that is pre-made and and

17:53

, yes , a black box . You're in the black box and

17:55

you are taking , like

17:57

an onion . You take , you're peeling the onion

17:59

and you want to go to the center

18:01

and to be free , also to have the freedom to

18:03

create whatever you want and

18:06

that's , uh , yes

18:08

, better than boredom , is that ? But I want

18:10

more . I want to do that . I want and

18:12

I don't want to have limits . Yes , I hate

18:14

limitations in in anything

18:16

, so I like freedom

18:19

. So , if I want freedom , I have to

18:21

learn to do it myself and not to be limited

18:23

by this of this from a

18:25

WordPress team or whatever this

18:27

is awesome , this is really cool .

18:29

So so you , you learned all of this

18:31

. You really peeled out the onion , as you

18:33

said , and then it stood the ins and outs

18:36

of WordPress , and at some point

18:38

you probably reached a plateau saying , okay , you know

18:40

, you know a lot of things , if

18:42

you want to know twice more , it will

18:44

take exponentially more time

18:46

to really go deeper , and that's

18:48

probably where boredom started to to emerge

18:50

again . That's where I cut you before .

18:53

So , yes

18:55

, I had also a

18:58

really complicated project , but with the toxic client

19:00

that the type of friends that you

19:02

have doing everything and then they do

19:05

Q&A for they

19:07

will they were loading literally an

19:09

image of super heavy and

19:11

I told them and they are , know you for

19:14

a little arrow on the Samsung phone , etc

19:17

. And re-itering new Q&A and not

19:19

letting you go for six months , and

19:22

and so I think , yes , that was the

19:24

plateau and and I

19:26

realized , oh , I want you to

19:29

learn more things , and

19:31

so I did a JavaScript bootcamp in 2018

19:34

how did you decide

19:37

on going for a javascript bootcamp at that point ? I

19:40

think I don't . I don't remember some

19:42

Twitter , somebody talked about bootcamps

19:44

and and I

19:46

begin to look at this and

19:50

some something , oh , I want

19:52

to do this , and when I want something , I become quite obsessed

19:55

by it . It's Mono

19:57

Maniac , so you have . Perhaps that's

19:59

why I learned quickly , also because

20:02

I became obsessed by something

20:04

and and yes , and I

20:06

don't see anything else . And so

20:08

I found it one in Barcelona

20:10

, and it was in Spanish and

20:13

, as I'm born bilingual

20:15

, my mother is Spanish , my father is French , I'm born

20:17

in France and I live in Madrid now , and

20:20

so I speak English . Oh

20:22

, yes , one thing also that is important for

20:24

development it's I

20:28

have lived in Andalusia 15 years ago and

20:31

when I arrived there , my English

20:33

was basic , the English for school

20:35

. As French people , as you know

20:37

, we are not the better education

20:40

in English . So

20:43

, yes , I have this basic English , but

20:46

I was in Andalusia , by the coast , in

20:48

a place where there

20:50

was people , english people there from 20

20:52

years that don't speak Spanish . So I came back

20:54

after three years there . I came back

20:56

fluent in English . Yes

21:02

, and without believe it or not , without that

21:04

I will not be there today , because

21:06

I was not realizing you really need English

21:09

for that and well

21:11

, that's been very limiting . In all the courses

21:13

I take online were

21:16

in English , but this

21:18

boot camp was in Spanish and say , okay , it's to

21:20

have less load on

21:22

my mind . You know there is already

21:25

so much things to learn that doing

21:28

it in one of my native language it's easier

21:30

. So that's why I choose this one in Barcelona . And

21:32

it was full stack , node and react . So

21:36

, yes , three months full

21:38

time and , yes , it was really good , because

21:40

the boot camps you are totally immersed

21:44

. You can do it online , but being

21:46

live , you cannot think

21:49

about anything else . It's

21:52

really an immersion . I even was

21:55

wasn't able to think about

21:57

WordPress or things , because your

22:00

mind is turned on this and

22:03

, yes , you learn faster

22:05

. It's an immersion . So

22:09

after that , most of my colleagues at the boot

22:11

camp were getting jobs . I

22:13

was not there to get a job . I was there

22:16

to not get bored , to

22:19

learn more things , and

22:22

but after that , yes , I learned

22:24

, react and say , okay , what I'm going to do

22:26

now and at this time in 2019

22:29

and the really the hype was

22:32

with Gatsby , so everybody was in

22:34

Gatsby , so I dive into

22:37

Gatsby and all

22:40

begin . Yes , I never took at conference at this time

22:43

and I had my friend , zach Gordon

22:45

, so that Gordon was a teacher , very

22:48

well known teacher , in now he's not yet

22:50

retired from tech in WordPress

22:52

and his by his

22:55

courses . He was in Team Treehouse that I learned

22:57

how to make WordPress

22:59

themes and Zach made

23:01

a course named JavaScript for WordPress

23:04

, because they announced

23:07

he has learned JavaScript

23:10

deeply because of Gutenberg , which

23:12

is built in React etc . And so he creates this course

23:14

. He is a very good developer

23:17

, but also a very good communicator and businessman

23:19

and speaker , and

23:22

many people that have passed

23:24

by his course and I was on his course and

23:27

he was organizing every year conference JavaScript for

23:29

WordPress and I was learning Gatsby

23:31

. And so I write to him say , oh , perhaps

23:33

I can speak about Gatsby

23:36

at your , at your covc and with

23:38

WordPress . And oh , yeah , yeah , yeah

23:40

. And then we had a call and we meet in person

23:43

and at the end of our

23:45

meeting he said me oh , look

23:48

, I want to propose you something to build . I have

23:52

the project to build , uh , free

23:54

themes with free WordPress

23:56

theme and turn them into Gatsby

23:58

. Are you interested to work with me on that

24:00

? I say , oh , yes , yes , yes , I want that

24:03

. And , uh , that

24:05

was the beginning of really a new , a new

24:07

adventure , um

24:09

and uh . And so we built that

24:11

, together with other guys too , and

24:14

and Zach , yes , helped me a lot

24:16

, uh , personally , etc . Really

24:18

a nice guy . And after

24:21

that and I speak at his conference it

24:24

was in 2019

24:27

uh , online

24:29

, you went well . And

24:31

After that

24:34

, gatsby

24:36

write me on Twitter to be speaker

24:38

at Gatsby Days in London . And

24:40

the funny thing is , I took I have

24:42

already took my ticket to go to

24:44

Gatsby Days , to the conference I wanted

24:46

to go , and so they found

24:49

me and it was my

24:51

first in-person conference

24:53

in 2019

24:55

, the Gatsby Days in London . But it was really

24:58

, really great .

25:01

How did that talk go as the shy

25:04

extrovert that you described yourself

25:06

being ?

25:08

But I already cure the shy

25:11

thing with the drama school .

25:13

Oh , okay .

25:16

Yes , it's always there , you know . It's always

25:18

a wound somewhere and if

25:22

you find people , for example

25:24

, that are talking a lot , talking too much

25:26

I'm part of them it's because we

25:28

want to hide this shyness , so we

25:30

do too much and

25:32

we can seem very extrovert , but it's

25:34

a struggle to because we

25:37

are not somebody that is very confident and

25:39

secure . We'd be calmer , etc

25:41

. So you can find

25:43

this type of symptoms

25:46

. So , but yes , it

25:49

goes much better .

25:52

So that all went well .

25:54

Yes , but to

25:56

have been in drama school

25:58

of course make me much

26:00

more confident on stage and

26:03

the way of speaking , etc

26:05

. There is things that you don't forget

26:08

. I'm planning actually to perhaps

26:10

retake a drama school here in Madrid to

26:12

have fun and to improve

26:14

my speaker skills

26:17

, because I'm doing

26:19

a lot of talks now and

26:21

so , yes , but I

26:24

was amazed when Gensby called me for that . I

26:26

said wow , and

26:28

I had great time , it went well

26:31

. And one thing that I

26:33

remember speaking at conference

26:35

. I think it's great to

26:38

take out to cure the imposter syndrome

26:41

too , because you see the reaction of people

26:43

. You feel that people

26:45

are learning something from you and they

26:47

are happy and they come to see you and ask

26:50

questions . And

26:52

the most crazy was somebody

26:55

that created things , really

26:57

, really a great engineer and come to me oh

26:59

, your talk was great , etc . And he learned

27:01

things . And then you realize that what

27:04

you know is

27:06

not what they know and it's complementary

27:08

in my path in life . Yes , it's doing creative

27:10

things and it's not the same

27:13

that deep engineers that will

27:15

have perhaps will be better in

27:17

code , but perhaps I will have all the creative

27:19

ideas because who I

27:21

am and because of my life too . So it's two

27:23

different things , but the imposter

27:25

syndrome never goes totally away .

27:30

You just learned to live with it .

27:33

Yes , so that was my first conference

27:36

. That was great , and

27:38

yes , and

27:41

after that I

27:44

decided to create professional

27:46

Gatsby WordPress themes . So

27:50

not ?

27:50

the three ones you did with

27:52

.

27:52

DAQ , but your own

27:54

company to do that ? Yes , I

27:57

always wanted to create a product , to create

27:59

something against the creative thing . So

28:01

, that's something I always have in mind , and

28:04

so I did it with Paulina

28:06

, a colleague . She's

28:08

really good , she's a doctor

28:10

in math and super creative , and

28:13

DAQ was supposed to be the marketing , but DAQ

28:16

retired and you realize that I

28:18

have a lot of fun creating it . They are beautiful

28:20

, but

28:23

without marketing

28:25

.

28:25

You don't say so

28:27

you had

28:30

to do marketing on your own .

28:31

No , because I don't like marketing .

28:32

So it's

28:35

not my thing .

28:36

I don't have the money to invest , to

28:38

hire I had no . I had a woman who

28:41

joined me , Bridgette . She was doing Twitter

28:43

, but she has to earn her life

28:45

too . She cannot put full

28:48

time on that . So

28:50

at the end I mentioned it a

28:52

time . But then when I entered Storyblocks , I stopped

28:54

it because I was making one sale a month

28:57

, and so it

29:00

was exciting . Somebody said , oh , buy

29:02

it in Japan . And so it

29:04

was exciting to know it that you have created

29:06

something and somebody on the other side of the

29:08

world buy it . And I learned

29:11

a lot by building that

29:13

. So I never regret to have done it , but

29:16

I learned that if one day

29:18

I create something , I will not do it alone

29:20

. I need a business partner . I

29:22

can learn it , but it's not my thing , it's not something

29:24

I enjoy . So

29:28

you cannot be everything , and

29:30

building a business has

29:33

several parts

29:36

. So I'm building

29:38

a block template now in Storyblocks

29:40

for the community . So I'm retaking that

29:43

, you know , but inside the company .

29:47

So how did you decide on the next step when

29:49

you realized , okay , this Gatsby theme business

29:51

is not working

29:54

as well as you expected . You need to do a next step

29:56

. How did you went at solving this ?

30:00

problem At this moment . When I did the Gatsby

30:02

theme , I was stealing , being a freelancer

30:04

. When I was a freelancer

30:07

, but more specialized in the headless

30:09

WordPress world Using

30:11

WP . Graphql is a plugin

30:15

for WordPress . Create

30:17

a GraphQL API . So I was a lot in this

30:19

community and I

30:22

made several projects

30:25

as a freelancer in

30:27

headless WordPress , especially

30:29

once they called me because I saw my

30:31

product and it was transferring

30:34

WordPress blog . It was

30:36

music tech . It was a beautiful blog

30:38

with I don't know 8,000 posts

30:40

transferring it to Gatsby but keeping

30:42

the back office in WordPress . I like my design

30:45

too and it was close to what they do and

30:48

they have creative

30:50

. The

30:53

brand design was

30:55

there , but I have to create the design too . I did it in

30:57

code with Tailwind

30:59

and so it was really one of my favorite projects

31:01

because it was creative . The team was great

31:04

. It was also developers , so they will take back on

31:06

other things and the

31:09

website was beautiful . So it was really one of

31:11

my favorite projects and they came from

31:14

the . They contacted

31:16

me because they saw my website

31:18

for the themes , so

31:20

that was nice . So I

31:22

was continuing both and hoping

31:25

that the moment it take

31:27

off , et cetera . But

31:29

no , the next step came because

31:33

it was just 10 years . I was freelancing , so it's

31:35

like , yes , it's fun because it's

31:37

really a decade and 22,

31:40

. And my , my project I get become

31:43

bigger . So

31:46

when you have something that

31:48

can be toxic and I was and

31:51

you go to the bigger step , you can underestimate

31:54

it and a project can become

31:56

toxic , and that happens . I have two

31:58

toxic project 2021 . I remember

32:00

the summer 21 . I

32:02

think I didn't even take weekends

32:04

, I was just turning crazy with

32:06

this project . Yes , it was . That's

32:09

how you find out . So , yes , you talk

32:12

about hiring people . I was

32:14

people working with me and

32:17

I find a collaborator because

32:21

I was stuck in this thing and

32:23

everybody has let me down and

32:26

and so I find on

32:28

discord this , this

32:30

guy solve a bug

32:32

I have , and so we had . Because

32:35

if , if you ask from people's and you

32:37

have 20 people that came and

32:39

you don't , you don't know who to choose

32:41

and and and

32:43

so this guy we had a call is from India and

32:45

we had immediately great

32:48

feeling and and

32:50

his personality to it goes

32:53

with me and he really helped

32:55

me on this project , set my life on this project

32:57

at this end , at the point when I entered story

33:00

block one month after he entered to yes

33:04

, yes , yes , so we still in the same company

33:06

, etc . So it's really really a nice , nice

33:08

story and is amazing . He's just somebody

33:11

that can take any

33:13

documentation they don't know and a

33:16

few hours after he has a solution . So

33:18

it's yeah . Yeah , he didn't

33:21

do engineering . He's doing that

33:23

for three years , but I

33:26

think , yes , in India I talk with people , they

33:28

they have math education very

33:30

young and

33:32

I think it trains the brain , and another friend told me

33:34

also that they written language is so complicated

33:36

that it trains the mind to understand it

33:39

. So , okay , so there

33:41

is yes , some when there are brilliance

33:43

are really really good and it's always

33:45

amazing me . So so

33:47

, yes , I had this toxic project

33:49

that's 2021 and

33:52

2022 . Then it

33:54

was a cancelled project after cancel

33:56

project . So I had

33:58

10 years flowing . I didn't do

34:00

marketing's projects that were just

34:03

flowing by contacts and things

34:05

and and it was easy . I never

34:07

, I never had to buy

34:09

my friends like was . I don't know

34:11

if I , if 2022 was bad luck

34:14

or if the 10 years before was huge

34:16

luck , because

34:19

I never had a plan or make marketing or

34:21

anything . So I

34:24

think the next step would have been to have

34:26

an agency . The way I was going

34:28

okay

34:30

, and I believe in science

34:32

and things like that , and I think if

34:34

I realized now being an agency would

34:37

have been an ego of things . You know

34:39

, if I business , etc

34:41

. But if I realize what I like to do

34:43

, I like learning , I love

34:45

, I love creating and I love

34:47

communicating . I don't , like

34:50

, you know , running after clients , doing marketing and

34:52

and managing

34:55

and managing people . You know it's not

34:57

what I love to do . I love to

34:59

create things and learn things

35:02

. So I think it would have been the

35:04

the wrong path , almost this

35:06

way . So

35:08

it's like the sign okay , no , no , that's

35:10

not the way you have to go , so we are going to cut you

35:12

the money and you are going to go to another path

35:15

. Now it's time . So this really , I really

35:17

take the message like that and

35:19

and I've

35:22

been asked to be there I was asked

35:24

to be developer relation in 2020

35:26

after I made

35:28

my talks , etc . By frontity . Frontity

35:31

was a react

35:33

framework for , exclusively

35:35

for WordPress , and

35:37

now they have been bought by automatic and not

35:40

the framework , but the team the team is working

35:42

on on Gutenberg and

35:44

they are from Spain and so they contact

35:46

me to ask me to be developer relation

35:49

, but at this time . Okay , I didn't

35:51

want to work for a company , I want to keep

35:53

free . And I was thinking

35:55

that developer relation was only about

35:57

writing documentation and

35:59

that's not something that wasn't enjoying

36:01

. So I say I even didn't think about

36:03

it . I say no , no , I'm not interested . And

36:06

so they asked me if I can recommend somebody and

36:09

I recommend my former teacher from my

36:11

job for my bootcamp

36:13

, which entered there

36:15

just before the pandemic and and

36:18

he's super happy and he's fun because we became

36:21

friends , because he was interested

36:23

about WordPress and I was in WordPress and now

36:25

he worked at automatic and me I work

36:27

in JavaScript .

36:28

So he worked in JavaScript , but he worked

36:30

at automatic .

36:31

So it's a . It's a fun story too

36:33

. So , yes

36:36

, I have been asked for that . Then

36:38

it was on WPngine's

36:40

hosting of WordPress . They contact me saying

36:43

me oh , we are searching for a

36:45

manager for developer relation and Jason

36:48

Langstorf has recommended you

36:50

. To what ? Why

36:54

me ? Jason

36:56

is super nice and and recommend

36:59

me , so he really appreciated , but I

37:01

didn't understand why he was recommending me

37:03

for that it's

37:06

. I said no , I didn't think about it . But

37:08

then 2022 was really

37:10

hard . I even I began to learn

37:12

web-free , but in

37:14

front end , and I had a project for a

37:16

NFT marketplace

37:18

, so it was going to save my my

37:21

finance . And then the crypto

37:24

crash came and the project

37:26

died . So it was really a bad situation

37:28

and Gatsby

37:33

was searching ahead of Debra . So I

37:35

apply and I pass for interview

37:37

, but you don't go from freelance to head , I imagine

37:39

. So it didn't work . And then

37:41

I met Debbie O'Brien . Perhaps you know

37:44

her . She's

37:46

at Microsoft and she lives in Mallorca

37:48

. I was living in Mallorca and somebody told me oh , you have

37:50

to meet Debbie , and we had lunch , not

37:52

for work , but just because we have two women

37:54

in tech in tech living in Mallorca

37:56

. And that was 10

37:59

days after the rejection from Gatsby

38:01

in June 2022

38:04

, and she told me , oh , you have

38:07

to apply at Storyblock and

38:10

at Prismic and I know them

38:12

. You can write from me , etc . And

38:15

this day I was working

38:17

on my team again , etc . And say , okay , I'm going to

38:19

do something else . I would Storyblock

38:22

and I apply the same day and

38:25

three weeks after I had an offer

38:27

. So , yes , I never applied

38:30

to a lot of companies , so , but I

38:33

only go from yes , that's a

38:36

things too because I see people

38:38

applying to many , many , many

38:40

things and I was not really

38:42

searching for a job . I was searching for some things

38:44

that bring me somewhere somewhere else

38:47

, but something I like

38:49

. So , gatsby , first , because it was , it

38:52

was organic for me , because I was building

38:54

product with them . I even did a video

38:56

for them as a contractor

38:59

, so it was

39:01

quite obvious . And Storyblock

39:03

, oh , okay , it's a headless CMS

39:05

, so this is where I come from . So

39:07

it was really , you

39:09

know , speaking to me and and

39:12

so it happens very , very quickly , instead of

39:14

applying to hundreds of things like I was very

39:16

lucky , but but

39:19

well , three weeks after I had an offer and

39:22

and I begin as a , as

39:24

developer relation just one year ago

39:26

, it was why it would be one year on the 25th

39:29

.

39:29

So so

39:32

yes and congratulations for them that's

39:35

how it happened are you still working

39:37

on the on the themes part or

39:39

no ? I keep it as yes

39:42

, I leave it .

39:43

In the beginning I was thinking even I put

39:45

on Twitter yes , don't worry , I will maintain

39:47

it , but no , it's , it was not

39:49

selling so and I was so occupied with

39:51

my , with my job , I

39:54

quickly realized I was not . He

39:56

cannot be profitable if I don't

39:58

have somebody dedicated

40:01

to marketing . You know , and take it , really

40:03

taking that . So I

40:06

let it die and but

40:08

I have to . The website is still

40:10

alive and it's because the website is really

40:13

nice and I believe myself , and

40:15

once or two I had somebody

40:18

who buy it and so I refunded immediately

40:21

. I have to take it down . I have to take the time and take

40:23

everything down because it's it's not

40:25

there anymore , but I

40:27

don't know at what time I decide okay , no

40:29

, I cannot , that's

40:31

not possible . Perhaps one day

40:34

, you know , and I'm learning a lot , you being a developer

40:36

in a company , and also I'm learning

40:39

being a freelancer

40:41

and alone you

40:43

learn what you can , but you have nobody that

40:46

teach you anything . So

40:50

it's you stretch , and

40:52

but you , yes , and

40:54

and so , being at the company , you , you

40:56

see bigger projects and bigger things and you learn

40:59

things . And also , yes , for

41:01

the imposter syndrome . You realize that you're

41:03

thinking sometimes . You think why I think like that

41:05

and people don't think like that , and you think that you're right

41:07

because other people approve you so

41:10

and you can find help also with colleagues

41:12

. So it's really refreshing after

41:14

working

41:17

alone for so long time .

41:21

Do you think there's something that that alexandre

41:24

who was learning

41:26

, always studying pharmacy

41:28

I don't want to say how many years

41:30

ago that

41:33

this person should have , should have , or

41:35

that you would have something to tell that person and

41:37

say don't worry about the future

41:39

because , don't worry , this

41:42

is not what you are going

41:46

to do .

41:47

Yes , yes , you will be . No

41:49

, a fan story . I always tell it's

41:51

. I wanted to be an actress and now

41:53

I work on screens , I'm

41:57

on stage , I give interviews

41:59

, I do videos

42:01

and I yes last story it's

42:03

I have a pseudonym Spalato

42:06

. It's not my true name . I totally

42:08

invented like actors . My

42:10

true name is very French , is Perrier , which

42:12

is in English Perrier

42:14

, in Spanish Perrier it's . I

42:17

don't sound good , so it was when I entered

42:19

Coddable . I have this public profile and I was living

42:21

in Croatia . My partner is from Croatia

42:23

and we think , okay

42:26

, I have to find another name . That's yes

42:29

, and so we think . In France , spalato

42:31

is the ancient name , the

42:34

Roman name , italian name

42:36

of split . If you type Spalato

42:38

on Internet , you will see the city of split in Croatia

42:40

, which is beautiful and I was living there

42:42

at this time . So this is where

42:44

my name come from .

42:47

It's fun to see how how things connect in

42:49

. You know how you can look at your story and say , hey

42:52

, I picked that from here and that from there and that from

42:54

there , and that's where am I now . I couldn't piece

42:56

that out before , but now I see . Yes

42:58

, absolutely .

42:59

Yeah , yeah , yeah . And I , when I , when

43:01

I begin with WordPress

43:03

and all that I was thinking to do small website

43:06

to actors , you know already is a theme

43:08

thing I was building digital themes

43:10

but it didn't work and but I never , ever

43:12

imagined to be where I

43:14

am now and speaking at conferences in the

43:17

US and and I

43:19

made a joke about that of my last co-op at Renix

43:21

. So so I

43:23

don't know what did happen next , because ten

43:25

years ago I didn't even

43:28

imagine doing

43:30

what I do now . So in ten years I don't

43:32

know where I will be , to be honest .

43:34

So we'll be keeping

43:36

an eye on you .

43:37

Being open , keep open to life , that's

43:39

. That's don't

43:42

put barriers . Keep open and play

43:44

and see what happened .

43:46

I'm into that , alexander . Thank you

43:48

so much . It's been a blast listening to a story . Thanks

43:52

.

43:52

So where would be the best place ?

43:55

where would be the best place to continue this discussion with

43:57

you ?

43:59

Twitter . Twitter Alexa

44:02

Dark on Twitter , not because I'm dark , because

44:04

my partner name is Darko , okay

44:07

, so well . Well , I'll link

44:09

to your .

44:13

Twitter account in the show notes directly . Yes

44:15

, just scroll down and click on it . Anything

44:18

else you want to plug in before we call it today ?

44:21

I think , yes , I think

44:23

I'm okay , can

44:25

continue for hours like that , because

44:28

I like as an extra what I like communicating

44:30

, talking with people .

44:31

so it was really nice speaking with you and thank

44:35

you and thank you for that , and

44:38

this has been another episode of the Opposite Journey and

44:40

we see each other next week . Bye , bye .

44:43

Bye .

44:44

Thanks a lot for tuning in . I

44:47

hope you have enjoyed this week's episode

44:49

. If you like the show , please share

44:51

, rate and review . It

44:53

helps more listeners discover

44:55

those stories . You can find the

44:57

links to all the platforms the

45:00

show appears on on our website devjourneyinfo

45:03

slash subscribe

45:05

. Creating the show every week takes

45:08

a lot of time , energy and

45:10

, of course , money . Will you please help

45:12

me continue bringing out those inspiring

45:15

stories every week by pledging

45:17

a small monthly donation ? You'll

45:19

find our Patreon link at

45:21

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45:23

donate . And finally , don't hesitate

45:26

to reach out and tell me how this week's

45:28

story is shaping your future

45:30

. You can find me on Twitter and at teamathabtimothep

45:35

, or per email info at

45:37

devjourneyinfo

45:39

. Talk

45:42

to you soon .