0:00

find where you're passionate about , because

0:02

I think it's true for every place , not

0:04

just open source every place has their pros and cons

0:06

. You have , like , the great moments and then the problem

0:08

moments . Open source has that too

0:10

. It's online , it's on the internet , it's exposed

0:13

. Everybody can see your stuff , Everybody comes in , has

0:15

opinions , all of it . So with that

0:17

, you also have that . So if you find , find

0:20

yourself either a group or

0:23

you know some , some

0:25

project you're

0:27

passionate about to join in , so

0:30

that you find people like

0:32

you that you will connect with and will have your

0:34

back right , We'll remind you why you want that

0:36

. That will will put aside

0:39

like some of the noise that you're hearing , because everywhere

0:41

has noise Open source a little

0:43

more . And so find the place that is good

0:45

for you and there are lots

0:47

of places like that and you can , you can

0:49

search for that are many places to search and there

0:51

are many places to look for them . But find

0:53

a place , not just that , you know . Oh

0:55

, I just want to start . I'll go to whatever I find

0:58

, because sometimes then it you know you don't get into

1:00

it whatever . Find a place that will support you and

1:02

that you can find your passion in that's

1:04

. That's the biggest .

1:06

Hello and welcome to developers

1:08

journey , the podcast bringing you the making

1:10

of stories of successful software

1:12

developers to help you on your

1:15

upcoming journey . I'm a host team

1:17

On this episode . I receive more

1:19

of shot lender , more of the

1:22

physicist turned software engineer , turned

1:24

system architect currently

1:26

working on modernizing Wikipedia's architecture

1:29

and features . She is

1:31

an open source enthusiast , right

1:33

to left , language support and localization

1:36

evangelist and a general

1:38

domain hoarder . I'm

1:42

going to try to guess which one

1:47

you last pull out of your nose , which

1:49

one you last registered , but

1:51

let's keep it for later . Shall we

1:54

.

1:54

Oh yes , Morel , let's keep everybody

1:56

in intention to see what it is .

1:58

Exactly the first day

2:01

. First , a warm welcome to everyone . Thank

2:03

you very much , I'm very happy to be here and

2:06

it's our pleasure . But before we come to your

2:08

story , I want to thank the terrific

2:11

listeners who support the show . Every month

2:13

, you are keeping the

2:15

Dev journey lights up . If you would

2:17

like to join this fine crew

2:19

and help me spend more time on

2:21

finding phenomenal guests than

2:24

editing audio tracks , please go

2:26

to our website , devjourneyinfo

2:29

and click on the support me on

2:31

Patreon button . Even the smallest

2:33

contributions are giant steps

2:35

toward a sustainable Dev

2:37

journey journey . Thank

2:40

you , and now back to today's guest

2:42

. As you know , morel

2:44

, the show exists to help the listeners

2:46

understand what your story looked like and

2:48

imagine how to shape their own future

2:50

. So , as is customary

2:52

on the show , let's go back to your beginnings . Where

2:55

would you place the start of your Dev journey ?

2:59

Well , when dinosaurs

3:01

run there I'm just kidding , I always say

3:03

that because I'm a little , you know it

3:06

all starts so early . Everything has

3:08

an origin . Well , my origin , I would say

3:10

, was , I

3:13

think , when I was around six years old , which

3:16

for me was a long time

3:18

ago . It was in the 80s , when

3:22

dinosaurs run I'm just kidding , but

3:25

close to that at

3:27

the very least , when computer dinosaurs , right

3:29

, like you know , when we had like those really old computers

3:32

. And so when

3:34

I was six , due to a bunch of kind

3:36

of like my dad's job , my whatever , I got

3:39

kind of this opportunity

3:41

to join a computer summer

3:44

camp and it

3:46

all came about because my dad was a photographer

3:49

and there was like a starting out

3:51

this , this like a PC magazine

3:53

, and he was , you

3:55

know , taking pictures and you know , for that magazine

3:57

and and they kind of like paid him money

4:00

but also gave him , you know , paid in stuff

4:02

. So I had a computer when I was growing up

4:04

, around six years old , which was one

4:07

of the first in my class that had , you

4:10

know , an actual computer , not like the

4:12

one with the , you know the XT , the one with the like

4:14

green screen . I had like a real one

4:16

, a 286 . Yeah

4:20

, ibm it was like . And

4:22

so I started just

4:25

like playing around . And

4:27

I started playing around and like

4:29

doing things with it , but not not completely

4:32

, just like getting myself familiar , and there was not in

4:34

not a whole lot of you know things with

4:36

a UI like there are today's like a lot of stuff

4:38

. You had to learn how to do commands and whatever , so

4:40

started getting into it . And then I had

4:42

this opportunity when I was six to go to a

4:45

computer summer camp and

4:48

of course I loved it . I was the youngest there

4:50

but I loved it . It was like I

4:52

don't know a couple of weeks and we

4:55

would , you know , try to program

4:57

something and whatever . And what I did ? I remember this

4:59

we

5:01

took like a Lego , you know

5:03

, lego that you build like Lego , and they used to

5:06

be I think they're probably is still today , although it probably

5:08

is called something different . It used to be Lego

5:10

logo . Okay , I don't know if anyone

5:12

remembers this programming

5:15

language called logo . It

5:18

had a little turtle in the middle of it and

5:21

you just gave the turtle instructions . So

5:23

the programming languages . It had loops , it had

5:25

a lot of stuff , but it was basically you move

5:27

the turtle places , so you say

5:29

like five forward means like five step

5:31

forward , whatever , turn right . And

5:33

then five forward and whatever . And you draw things on

5:35

the screen , right , with that turtle . So

5:38

what we did logo Lego . You

5:40

would take your , your turtle

5:42

, whatever , but it would send instructions

5:45

. Instead of just the turtle on the screen , it

5:47

would send instructions to a motor

5:49

or two motors that you

5:51

can then build logo around

5:53

Lego , right . So what I did

5:56

? I was six years old . What I did was

5:58

I made a coffee

6:01

staring machine because

6:03

my dad loved coffee and

6:05

I was like I'm going to build for my dad . I

6:09

was a little machine with a little hand that held

6:11

the spoon , the like the teaspoon

6:13

, and you had to put

6:15

the coffee and then the

6:18

sugar yourself . Okay , cause it wasn't

6:20

that . You know , I

6:22

wasn't as smart as I thought it was , but then

6:25

it would like dump

6:27

the thing pretty fast . So you had to be like careful

6:29

with the glass there were . You

6:31

know , that wasn't a bug , that was a feature . It

6:34

would dump it in , yeah , and then it

6:36

would drop itself into the cup and

6:38

then just go circles and circles and

6:40

circles around to like stir it , and

6:42

then it would stop very dramatically , lift itself

6:45

up , and then you could take

6:47

the glass and I was so proud of myself , I

6:49

was so proud . I was like

6:53

, look , I did it for my dad . It was great

6:55

. And that was basically my first

6:57

kind of real interaction

6:59

with what happens when

7:01

you give instructions to a computer

7:03

and that

7:06

you know that just opened it up and

7:08

ever since then I kept on doing these

7:11

kinds of things . I never thought I'd like work

7:13

in it . I didn't think that it's going to be the thing

7:15

that I'm like very good at or whatever , but it

7:17

was just for the convenience sake

7:19

, from the wonder sake , like you know . It

7:21

just kept on coming back and forth and

7:24

then I kind of dropped it a little bit . Like you know , it

7:26

was okay . Whatever , I used computers when I needed

7:28

to , but there were other things that I wanted to do . I

7:31

got into sciences a lot . I really loved

7:33

Star Trek . I wanted to go and be in

7:35

Star Trek . So I

7:37

meant you know , explore space

7:39

. But other people told me I need to be in Hollywood to

7:41

be in Star Trek , which I guess officially

7:44

is correct , although that's not exactly what

7:46

I meant . I was kind of like

7:48

I love the fact that they're in space and they're

7:50

exploring , and you know , it took

7:52

a while for me to understand that what I actually want to do is

7:54

study astronomy . But initially I was like

7:56

, oh okay , I want to go to Hollywood . So there was a lot of

7:58

kind of like these you know kid aspiration

8:01

stuff . That happened and I kind of dropped the

8:03

computer stuff . I

8:06

was in junior high and I remember this because

8:08

I had this , this like smart C

8:10

kid in class that was

8:13

kind of like walking around in the studio , owns the place . You know one of

8:15

those kids and he

8:17

used to tell everybody that he looked , he

8:19

programs in visual basic six , vb

8:21

six . I remember this . And

8:24

I remember there was like I didn't , I wasn't

8:26

really interested in kind of like being like hardcore

8:29

program or whatever . It was okay , I kind of did

8:31

stuff , I did a little HTML , I did like

8:33

you know that stuff , whatever . And

8:36

then I don't remember if it's what happened . I just

8:38

literally needed something . I

8:40

just I want . I was , I was lazy , you

8:42

know . You know engineers

8:44

build stuff usually because we're lazy . We

8:46

want something else to do our thing for us Right

8:49

we spent now weeks and weeks

8:51

working on something so that we can do

8:53

something that would have taken us five minutes , but basically

8:57

right . So basically that's what

8:59

happened to me in , like you know , junior high . I needed

9:01

something I don't remember what , whatever and he

9:04

kept going on about kind of like I program

9:06

in VB six , maybe six is so awesome , and up until

9:08

then I made like web pages and like Jocities

9:11

or whatever it was . It was even before that

9:13

, I think . So

9:15

I went over to him and I was like can you teach me how

9:17

to , how to do VB six ? And

9:19

he looked at me . The most condescending

9:22

Like this

9:24

was , I think it was great

9:26

because it planted . So it was

9:28

so condescending that I wanted to prove

9:30

him wrong kind of thing . You know what I mean . Like he looked

9:33

at me and was like it's too hard

9:35

for you . And then he said , like well

9:37

, you just like open

9:39

VB six , double click an image and

9:41

do like button click

9:43

and like you know something very vague I'm

9:46

like . So I started thinking to myself like

9:48

gee , okay , whatever I

9:50

would like , I'll open it up and look myself . And

9:53

I literally did what he said . I was like opened

9:55

up an image and then double clicked it and a code

9:57

to open it up . I'm like , wait

10:00

, what happens if I do click

10:02

Like he said ? It clicks , huh

10:04

. And then , by

10:06

the end of that year , I programmed something bigger than

10:08

what he did , which was awesome . Because

10:10

, just because like oh , I can't

10:12

do it . So sometimes people tell you you

10:14

can't do things and you're kind of like really

10:16

that's crazy , yeah , I know

10:19

Really . So

10:22

yeah , so that's kind of like . You know how I got back

10:24

a little bit into it , but still it was a little bit . It

10:26

was mostly a hobby , Like my passion

10:28

. When I understood that Hollywood

10:31

was , I mean , I loved

10:33

to be , you know , famous actress , but

10:35

that's not actually what I wanted . When I started

10:37

to understand that the passion was actually , you

10:40

know , the astronomy aspect

10:42

of Star Trek , I started

10:44

leaning a little bit towards there , and

10:46

so computers remained . But there were kind of like this

10:49

convenience thing , Like if I want to

10:51

do something so that I can do like electrical

10:54

engineering better or astronomy better

10:56

, kind of like communication better , yeah , I have that thing

10:58

here that I can like touch on , but it's not like

11:00

obviously I'm not a professional at it , and

11:06

so that's how everything kind of started

11:08

and I can keep going on how it continued

11:11

, but I don't know , do you want me to ?

11:13

Absolutely . I want to see where you went . Of course

11:15

, you started as a robotics engineer

11:18

and then you wanted to go towards

11:20

astronomy . Somehow you took a wrong

11:22

turn and ended up as a software engineer .

11:25

So I call it . It might be because I'm a

11:27

very big advocate for right to left . I call

11:29

all my turns right turns .

11:31

Okay , so you took a lot of right turns , but if you

11:33

make three right turns at some point you come back on your

11:35

tracks , so that's good .

11:36

That's true Effectively . They might

11:38

be turning me towards the left , but they

11:40

were right turns .

11:43

So that was first right turn . Let's

11:46

take the second one now .

11:47

Yes , so

11:50

I did . I went to study

11:52

. So initially

11:54

I still planned . I had this

11:56

. When you're a kid you have

11:58

this vision of yourself and for the

12:01

longest time I had a vision of myself of kind of

12:03

like I want to go to Hollywood because that's Star Trek

12:05

where I want to go . But even when I realized

12:07

that that's not really what I did , I was like what I wanted to do actually

12:09

is astronomy . I still had that thing in my head

12:11

of kind of like , well , hollywood , whatever . So the initial

12:13

plan was actually to go and study script

12:16

writing , like screenwriting . And

12:19

then a whole bunch of things happened . So that wasn't

12:22

even a turn , because I kind of realized that it's

12:25

a case where there's not a whole lot of money

12:27

in it and I'm not an advocate to choose

12:29

something to do only because there's money in it . But I'm

12:32

saying like if you know that you're going to run into

12:34

challenges , like look , there's

12:36

not a whole lot of money in it , you need to be

12:38

really , really in love with

12:40

what you're doing and really passionate

12:43

with what you're doing . And I realized that I love it

12:45

and I'm kind of I

12:47

like it , but I don't know if I'm that passionate

12:49

about it to be able to do that . So that kind

12:51

of like got me thinking . I'm like , hang

12:53

on a minute , is that really what I want to do ? No

12:55

, I actually want to deal with space

12:58

more , and so that's what I did

13:00

. So I went at

13:02

first into electrical engineering

13:04

and the idea there was that

13:07

, again , I didn't think I

13:09

could do it . I didn't think I could do physics

13:11

. What do you mean ? You need to be like a master

13:13

genius to be

13:15

, like you know , phd physics

13:18

. I'm okay , you know , I

13:20

did a little physics in high school , but like I

13:22

didn't really like math and whatever , like nah

13:24

, so I'm going to go at it from the electrical

13:27

engineering angle , which

13:29

deals with , like you know , the

13:31

radio antennas , right

13:34

, and kind of like the equipment of it and kind of like the signals

13:37

and all that kind of stuff . And I was like that's really cool , and

13:39

I did . And in order to do that

13:41

, I moved to the US and

13:44

I had a job and I

13:46

studied at the same time , which was not very

13:48

easy . But

13:51

not only was

13:53

it not very easy , because you know , okay , fine , you're working

13:55

full time , you're studying full time . It's kind of like

13:57

I realized that if I want to continue doing engineering

14:00

. One of the problems with engineering is that it's very

14:02

, very rigid . If

14:04

you don't take the amount of classes that you need

14:06

to take within one specific semester

14:09

now , your entire next semester is

14:11

delayed . It's really rigid . So

14:13

if you do kind of like shift work or whatever and

14:16

you're saying like , okay , I'll take maybe these

14:18

courses instead of these courses , there's very limited

14:20

. So that was one problem . And

14:22

the second wasn't really a problem . I took

14:24

physics 101 because we all , you

14:27

know , you're kind of like in the US especially you're kind of taking

14:29

the first year to be kind of , you know , interest to a lot of

14:31

things . And so I went to physics and I already studied

14:33

a little bit of physics in high school and this physics 101

14:35

was very , very basic . So I

14:37

basically sat down and did nothing in class because

14:39

I already knew everything and apparently

14:42

that impressed the professor . I don't know how he didn't

14:44

kick me out , but apparently it was

14:46

impressed with me . I was a little

14:48

bit of a smart ass . I remember

14:50

one class

14:53

he was talking and I already knew the material

14:55

and I did all the homework and I was fine . So I

14:57

was kind of like spacing out . I don't know . I think I filled

15:00

a sadoku in the middle of class or something , and

15:04

he was asking this physics

15:07

riddle . I think he was like , if I have a cup and

15:10

the cup has , like you know , water on

15:12

it , I put ice in the cup

15:14

and also water up to the rim , and

15:16

now I wait for the ice to melt . Who

15:19

thinks the water would be like lower right

15:22

, and then people raise their hands . And who thinks like

15:24

the water will be higher , will drop out

15:26

of the cup ? People raise their hands . Who thinks

15:28

it will be the same thing ? People raise their hands . And

15:30

I didn't raise my hand to anything because I didn't listen

15:32

. I was kind of like I was all spacing out . I

15:34

don't know what happened . I was doing my own sadoku , whatever

15:36

it was , and so the professor noticed

15:39

, so he looked at me and then he pointed at me and

15:41

he was like Moriel , what do you think ? And

15:43

so initially , of course , panic , because

15:45

what ? I don't know what you were asking . So you know

15:47

, in your own mind , you're like rewind . So

15:50

I'm like rewinding to myself . I was like what

15:52

just happened ? Wait , da , da , da , da , da . And

15:54

so while I'm doing that , panic rises because I'm in

15:56

front of everybody . So the first thing that comes out of my mouth

15:58

is like , well , it depends . And

16:01

he was on the floor because it's

16:03

true , it does depend , it

16:06

absolutely depends . And then I kind

16:08

of rewound by that time and now I'm stuck

16:10

because I said that depends . Now I have to continue with

16:12

why it depends , and he looks at me and

16:14

I'm like , well , you know

16:17

the air pressure and stuff

16:19

. And I'm just at this point like , seriously , he

16:21

knows that I didn't listen . I know I didn't

16:23

listen , but he loves it . So

16:25

he came to me after class and he was like , listen , you have to

16:27

do a major in physics . And I'm like what are

16:30

you talking about ? How

16:32

did you get from this to like doing a major in

16:34

physics ? And he's like you have it , you

16:37

have to do a major in physics . And

16:39

so I did . I was kind of like , all right , well , it's

16:41

working out with engineering , but not really . I

16:44

just swapped to physics . And

16:46

I even remember I went in order

16:48

to do that , you have to go to your advisor , right

16:50

, like you know , to kind of say , all right , well , I'm going to switch to the

16:52

advisor in engineering , looked at

16:54

me and he was like you're going to switch

16:56

to physics from

16:58

engineering . And I'm like , yeah , do

17:01

you not like money ? I

17:08

was like , well , that's an interesting point

17:10

. But

17:12

to reiterate my previous one , if you're

17:15

passionate about something , you

17:17

know , I'm good , but

17:19

it was an interesting point to make . So

17:22

I did . I started studying physics and I did . I

17:24

finished my entire degree . I

17:27

did my bachelor's in physics . I loved it . I went

17:29

to do some internships

17:31

that were extremely interesting . But

17:34

I realized something in the

17:37

middle Again one of those right turns

17:39

. I realized that

17:41

in order to look , in order to be an astronomer

17:44

, in order to be like a PhD , you need to go into academia

17:46

. Right , you do that , and then

17:48

after that you could . There are ways for you to

17:50

then say , ok , you know what ? I don't want academia anymore , I

17:52

want the industry or whatever . But you

17:54

have to be an academia and you have to be an academia for

17:56

quite a long time . And

17:59

it's very , very tough

18:01

, and I'm not just talking about the

18:03

materialist stuff , I'm talking about the

18:06

environment . It's very , very tough , especially

18:09

for women in

18:11

these kind of things , in physics

18:14

in general and chemistry a little too , also Quite

18:16

, and in astronomy

18:18

. There's another aspect here that people don't

18:20

think about a lot is that when you do go to do

18:23

your PhD , you a lot of times have

18:25

to go and be in remote places , because

18:27

a lot of the radio telescopes and the telescopes

18:30

are in the middle of the desert or middle of remote

18:32

. And that adds to the difficulty

18:34

, because whatever other difficulty you

18:36

have with being a woman or just being

18:38

in tech and being in this

18:40

kind of environment , science right

18:42

is then going even bigger

18:45

Because you're not also Alone

18:47

in that environment you don't have . So all of

18:49

that came in and again I did this assessment

18:51

in my head of like Look

18:54

, I am not this

18:57

, this like Incredible

18:59

mind that can sit

19:01

down and do these all

19:04

, like you know , mathematical equations in my head . And da da

19:06

da , it's just not me . I'm more creative

19:08

person , so I can do a lot of the

19:10

astronomy stuff which is creative , of

19:12

like analyses and stuff like that . But but

19:15

how Passionate am

19:18

I ? And doing that , given

19:20

what I'm going to have to go through in

19:22

order to be successful in it , given

19:25

the amount of of , like you know

19:27

, things that I have ? And I wasn't entirely sure I Didn't

19:30

decide it that I wasn't , I was just not

19:32

entirely sure . So I said , okay , I'm

19:34

going to Either

19:37

way , I'm going to have to do , like you know , the exams and whatever

19:39

the GRE and and all that kind of stuff

19:41

which is already you have to like study , like mad

19:44

, for I'm going to give it a

19:46

little bit of time For now

19:48

. I continued . I had like an internship

19:50

that turned into a little bit of a job to be responsible

19:53

for like a website of the

19:55

American Institute of physics , some

19:57

some department in the American Institute of physics . So I worked

19:59

in physics but I did like website

20:02

work and so I came back a

20:04

little bit to the , to the programming stuff

20:06

. But again it was kind of like a side thing and and

20:09

that when I was thinking about kind of like , okay

20:11

, well , what am I doing with my ? So

20:13

like , where do I want to go ? Do I want to continue this physics

20:16

thing ? Like I can't really , you can't really do a

20:18

lot of the astronomy stuff only with the bachelor's . You need

20:20

to do the PhD stuff , like

20:22

you can't . You know you have to be that . Do

20:26

I ? Am I willing or do I want to ? Or can I find

20:28

myself in a place where I'll be and I'll

20:30

feel very , very passionate about and

20:32

succeed ? I don't know . But what I do know is

20:34

I'm kind of liking what I'm doing

20:37

with this computer stuff right now . I don't know

20:39

, it's kind of cool . Maybe

20:41

I can find , you know , a

20:44

place that will hire me and then see what it's like

20:46

. And that's

20:48

what I try to do . I try to find kind of like a place

20:50

that you know , kind of like as a junior engine

20:53

, like you know , software developer , try

20:56

to see , like you know , if I can get back into it . I

20:58

didn't know anything about like working in a team

21:00

or working professionally . I was like , but

21:03

Because I was a student in the US

21:05

, the visa type I was only allowed to

21:07

work in , what I graduated from , which was physics

21:10

. Yes , and

21:12

there are ways to kind of like , make the point of like , physics

21:14

is very broad and Computers is probably

21:16

related , but a lot of but the company needs to agree to

21:18

that to make that case . And

21:20

so another consideration came to mind and

21:22

I was like well , how about I take

21:25

a masters in Computer

21:28

science ? And then that

21:30

will do two things first of all , it will allow

21:32

me to say , okay , I do have a masters

21:35

in computer science , therefore I could go work in something

21:37

related to programming . But it

21:39

will also get me back into

21:41

this computer stuff that I didn't do a long

21:43

time you know , I did it as a side

21:45

thing and maybe give me some principles to

21:47

remember . This is what I did . So I wanted to a

21:49

masters and

21:52

I actually really enjoyed

21:54

it . I think that , you know , school is not for

21:56

for everyone . I'm not like a proponent

21:58

of saying kind of like , you know , jobs are only for people

22:01

who did a degree or stuff . I don't think so , but I do

22:03

think that some people really , you know , if you connect to

22:05

it , I think it's really cool and I do , I

22:07

really love that . So I did that and

22:09

at the end of it , towards the , towards the

22:11

second , the end of the second year , I Saw

22:15

interships . I was like , oh , you have to go to internships

22:18

or whatever . And Again

22:20

, with my self-esteem being

22:22

awesome , as this is a recurring thing

22:24

, you see , here I can't do it . I

22:26

also was kind of like , oh , come on , I

22:29

don't have experience in anything . Who's gonna

22:31

take me ? So I kind of I

22:33

I submitted , but it was like half-hearted

22:35

, like I don't , I don't know , nobody

22:37

will take me , it's not gonna work out . And

22:40

then I saw Google

22:42

Summer of Code . And Google Summer of Code

22:44

was this internship still going today

22:46

that allows you to go

22:49

and work in an internship with

22:51

open source organizations ? And

22:53

I was like , okay , I , I know WordPress

22:55

because I've been doing websites and I know wikis

22:57

, because I've been doing some websites , I Don't

23:00

know , maybe one of them will want me . And so

23:03

I kind of posted . There was a way to kind of like

23:05

say I want to join this , whatever . And initially

23:07

it was actually really funny because I

23:09

went to the Wikipedia

23:11

one right , the media foundation was was

23:13

part of the organizations that and I went in

23:15

into one of the forums and I put in that

23:17

I'm interested and I Gotta

23:21

reply . Someone replied . Someone say , like oh

23:23

, it's so cool that you're interested . Oh my gosh , like

23:25

, hey , reminding you that if you are interested

23:28

, you should also do this , like send this message

23:30

to the mailing list . And I was like I'm

23:33

not even in yet . They

23:37

responded I'm

23:40

not even working for them yet , oh

23:42

my god . And so I was so impressed and

23:44

so like , oh my god , maybe maybe there is a

23:46

chance here . That I did . I went to the mailing

23:48

list and I posted

23:51

and I kind of like hey , I want to

23:53

do an internships here . My idea for a project is

23:55

one of the things that you need to come up with , an idea for a project

23:57

, and my idea for a project was a some

24:00

extension to Media wiki , which is

24:02

the thing for Wikipedia , that

24:04

that does visualizations for physics . I

24:06

was like this is great , I know physics , I could do this

24:09

, whatever . And the next thing that

24:11

happened was that nothing

24:14

. Nothing happened

24:16

, like it was Chirp

24:18

, chirp on on the mailing list

24:20

, crickets , nothing

24:23

. And I'm like Someone

24:26

needs to accept my idea in

24:28

order for me to do an internship . What's

24:30

happening ? Maybe it's a bad idea

24:32

, maybe , like just no one you know , like I don't

24:34

know if anyone really knew how to do

24:36

the physics thing and whatever . There was no

24:38

buyers . And

24:40

Then a person saw

24:43

that I speak Hebrew one

24:46

of the people in the , in the foundation of me and

24:48

he contacted me and he's like , listen

24:50

, you know how to program , you

24:54

speak Hebrew . We could actually use

24:56

help with our editor , with

24:58

our just text editor , to

25:01

make sure that it kind of , like you know , supports Right

25:03

to left languages like Hebrew and Arabic and Farsi

25:05

and stuff . And I'm like I don't know how to do that . It's

25:08

like you know , you don't know and you don't need to know a lot

25:10

. I'll tell you , like you know the rules that I know . I

25:13

just need to know that there's someone that

25:15

can do programming and understand

25:17

that and I'm like , okay , I'm sure I can give

25:19

it a try , why not ? And that was my project for the summer

25:21

. There you go , you

25:24

got it , I got it , I

25:26

was in , that's it , and

25:28

yeah , and , and that you know , since

25:31

then , this is this has been like One

25:33

of one of the biggest things when I talked to people

25:36

about like you know how to white , to get into

25:38

open source and what's it's a little whatever . Well , when

25:40

I developed for Wikipedia , I was an intern and

25:43

within a month of me just working on

25:45

Just stuff , I

25:47

had two patches that were in production

25:49

. Billions of people who visit Wikipedia

25:52

just saw them and I was dancing around and one

25:54

of them was like a tiny little CSS fix . I

25:57

didn't even matter . I was like look at me

25:59

, you and you look at it . What other

26:01

place like there's not a whole lot of places where

26:03

, as an intern , you're

26:05

like your stuff is already in production , like you know

26:07

a month . Right , it

26:09

was just . It was just like and

26:12

that's it , I'm there . I'm there since then

26:14

, since 2013 . Wow

26:16

, that that was yeah

26:18

, so that's how it started .

26:23

You turn , right turns as you and you landed when

26:27

I see your smile and how you're dancing , talking

26:30

about this , the right

26:32

spot . I think so too yeah passion

26:34

is where I don't know if the money

26:36

is there , but at least the passion is there and the

26:38

willingness to do it .

26:39

So I think so I think this is this

26:41

is the thing , right , and this is a lot of times when I talk

26:43

to people again about kind of like open source and stuff . We all

26:45

know that there's open source can be very tough

26:48

right , because it is online , with everything

26:50

that has to do with online . It could be the good , good , good things

26:52

and the bad things and there are bad things too

26:54

in it , but this is what I'm saying

26:57

, like always , as a device to people to

26:59

get into open source . It's like find

27:01

yourself , your community , that

27:03

you have passion and they

27:06

see you right . And this is just what

27:08

happened to me . I I went in to a place

27:10

where I had backing

27:12

. I had people who wanted me there , who

27:14

could support me when things weren't as great

27:16

, who could teach

27:18

me when I went , when you know , and help me

27:20

out and whatever , and when I was passionate

27:23

about this , and I think that combination just worked

27:25

. I suddenly found myself in a place where I

27:27

didn't know where I was going . I was kind of like I don't know physics

27:30

, not physics , I'll do this . I

27:32

tried to keep physics in the picture of kind

27:34

of like you know , when I was programming , I was like this

27:36

is what I'm good at . Maybe I have a degree in

27:38

it . I must be doing something . Okay , like it

27:41

was all like this , and then , just out of out of

27:43

nowhere , you stumble in . I think , and I

27:46

think some of it is just recognized . I recognized

27:48

you know which one of the

27:50

doors that opened for me Made

27:52

me feel the best and I just walked into that one

27:55

.

27:57

It was you know

27:59

, yeah , I want to be a bit polarizing

28:01

a little bit and and then have , have me

28:03

, have you correct me ? Um , so

28:05

when I think about open source , I

28:08

I have the one picture Uh , that's

28:10

xkcd picture

28:13

for one guy in Nebraska Holding

28:15

the the world On his

28:17

shoulders because he did or she did

28:19

some kind of small open

28:22

source software and maintaining it since

28:24

then . And if they remove it , pad

28:26

left and and the world crumbles on . Or

28:29

you have the other way around , maybe

28:32

microsoft size or google

28:34

size enterprises , um

28:36

, publishing something on

28:38

the internet as open source , whichever

28:41

licenses they use , and

28:44

then I'm making a face there , but

28:47

somehow it doesn't feel open source . They're

28:49

just creating a giant software , it's

28:51

a big enterprise and somehow this lands

28:53

as an open source software on the internet . I'm

28:57

sure you're somewhere in the middle of

29:00

this , but how does Wikipedia

29:02

or Wikimedia , the Wikimedia Foundation

29:04

, works in terms of open

29:07

source , is terms of working

29:09

together on that spectrum

29:11

and beyond ?

29:13

So , as you're pointing out , this is not polarizing

29:16

at all . No , not at all

29:18

. Let's go into it , why not ? So

29:21

, as you're pointing out , open

29:23

source is an entire world and

29:25

arguably some

29:27

places call themselves open source when arguably

29:31

they might not be OK . It depends who you ask

29:33

about the definition of open source and the definition of open

29:35

source , if you go backwards and

29:37

forwards , there are official ones , but then the things

29:39

that are practically . There's a

29:41

whole bunch of mess here . I

29:45

would argue personally that a

29:47

piece of application that comes out

29:49

with a license that doesn't allow that license

29:52

itself is not open source . The software is not

29:54

open source , even if the code is visible , and

29:56

I think that most people agree with me on that . I

29:58

would further argue that , even if the license

30:01

is OK for you to fork and do whatever you want , but

30:03

if the software itself doesn't accept contributions

30:05

so , for example , android is

30:08

open source , I believe , also

30:10

the license . I need to check into that . Please don't kill me

30:12

if I'm wrong , but I think I believe that

30:14

you can technically take it and fork

30:16

it and whatever , but I don't know how much

30:18

. If I want to put a

30:21

patch or whatever , it

30:24

will immediately go in and

30:26

depending on how easy that is , because there

30:28

are other examples of that kind of thing I'm not

30:30

entirely sure on the scale of

30:32

free and open sourceness I would

30:35

put it . I would say , ok , it might be open source , but

30:37

it might not be , as and

30:40

we're talking about the foundation and the Wikimedia

30:42

movement we're pretty

30:45

set on making sure that

30:48

we are very , very much open source , arguably

30:51

sometimes a little much , and

30:54

again , please don't kill me , everybody who

30:56

listens to this I'm not saying that being open source

30:58

is bad . I am saying , however , that

31:00

everything has a price , right . Everything has kind

31:03

of like a balance of things , and you allow , and

31:06

we do out of principle

31:08

, right , like we are saying what

31:10

made Wikipedia great

31:13

was not the tech

31:15

, what made Wikipedia great

31:17

was the technical idea , and

31:19

then the people who used it right , the

31:22

amount of users that came in and just had a vision

31:25

for this and changed it and come in . And then the people

31:27

who then came in and said , ooh , ok

31:29

, I'll add this in and I'll add this in technically . And

31:32

that happened because it's open source and because it's

31:34

free and not free . How would

31:36

you call it ? Not free as in freedom

31:39

, not free as in beer ?

31:40

Free as a kitten .

31:42

Right , exactly , and in this case

31:44

, it's both . It's both free of money

31:46

and free of freedom , but

31:49

it is something that we really , really care about , and this is something

31:51

that also , as you can see when

31:54

I'm talking about it , I'm very passionate about this , because

31:56

this is , I think , a

31:59

thing that really impacts the world , and I

32:01

think this is the one thing that , for

32:04

me in Wikipedia , is

32:07

one of the biggest reasons why I'm there and why I'm staying

32:09

there and why I stayed there for so long Because

32:12

I have impact . I literally

32:14

I feel that , and I had impact when I was an intern

32:16

, and I have impact today , and this is impact

32:18

that outright does something

32:20

to the world . There's no doubt about

32:22

it , and part of that is absolutely

32:25

to be with the mentality of

32:27

open and collaborative , both

32:29

in the content to make sure that our

32:31

communities can put the content

32:34

and the way that the content needs to be what everybody

32:36

can edit and in the

32:38

code , and

32:40

so , of course , there are also

32:42

hardships with it , and

32:45

these are the things that I'm dealing with right now with my team

32:47

. It's the idea of look , we

32:49

want to be open source , but

32:51

then open source and there's different ideas about the one sister , the

32:53

bazaar and the cathedral and

32:55

all that kind of stuff , ideas of who's running . How

32:57

do you run your open source so far ? And

33:00

people also have opinions about whether it

33:02

still is open source , if it is more cathedral

33:05

style , and whether it is open source if not . Whatever

33:07

it is , the way that you run

33:09

your open source software impacts the way that your software

33:11

is then built . And when you have a software

33:14

like MediaWiki , which is a software underlying to Wikipedia

33:16

and 11 other projects

33:18

right , it's not just Wikipedia . We have

33:20

Wiktionary and Commons that does

33:23

image , and we

33:25

have Wicked Data that does graphical

33:28

connections between small bits of knowledge All

33:30

that kind of stuff is the same software and

33:33

for 20 years we kind of pulled

33:36

that software in all multiple directions

33:38

because that's what users came in to do . And that's

33:40

beautiful in one aspect , because

33:42

you're kind of like no one would have guessed this

33:45

would happen . Jimmy Wells , when he just

33:47

released it , would not have guessed , I'm sure

33:50

, where we are today . On the other hand , when you look

33:52

at the architecture of your software , it

33:55

is messy . It is messy because there

33:57

was no plan in the beginning . You

33:59

didn't come and say , ok , the architecture needs to be very

34:01

solid because , blah , there was no true

34:04

, solid , single vision

34:06

for the product , because people

34:08

just came in and made the vision and

34:11

that is beautiful , but then technologically

34:13

that could be challenging . So that

34:15

is kind of like a lot of the

34:17

problems that I love dealing with , like

34:19

, ok , give me that problem

34:21

, what do we do with this now ? How do we keep it , this

34:24

freedom thing , this free thing that everybody

34:27

could still do stuff , but we've

34:29

got to have some rules , because otherwise it'll be like

34:31

this everything on top of everything

34:33

, that everything collapses and whatever , and we won't

34:35

be able to do anything . So how do you find that balance

34:37

to make it sustainable

34:39

for the next 100 years , with whatever

34:42

other ? There's new technologies coming

34:44

up and everybody's yelling that PHP

34:46

is dead , even though it's just

34:48

by thinking about how many WordPress websites there are

34:50

there , it seems to me like PHP is still alive and well

34:52

and kicking , I

34:54

think . But OK , it's kind of like oh

34:56

, you should the amount of people , by the way , that I hear that

34:59

tell us that we should rewrite the entire Wikipedia and go

35:01

.

35:02

Absolutely .

35:03

Let's do it tomorrow . Yes , just

35:07

like , go ahead , give it a try . All

35:09

right , sure , but

35:11

yeah . So you want to still make sure that

35:14

in 100 years time , wikipedia

35:16

is still here , and so you do need

35:18

to think about these kind of things with this .

35:20

So these are the things that I'm getting really , really excited about

35:22

and really how did you , did

35:24

you travel from this , from

35:26

this internship in this

35:28

part of Wikipedia that you

35:30

love and in this activity that you

35:32

love ? Was it ? Was it just well , a

35:35

bit like like the Valve software

35:37

handbook , but

35:39

they describe well , you just go wherever

35:41

you think you can add value and just do

35:43

it . Or is it really trying

35:46

to climb

35:48

the stairs with big air quotes , of

35:51

going into the architecture of Wikimedia and having

35:53

to prove that you can do this and

35:55

really having to ? I don't know how

35:57

that works .

35:58

So it's a little bit of both . So when I joined in

36:00

, I joined in 2013 to

36:02

the visual editor team , which is

36:04

now the editing team , because they're not just doing visual

36:06

editor as a

36:08

front end engineer also

36:10

, front end is my expertise even today

36:13

. And I joined in and , as

36:15

I said , my job as an intern

36:17

basically was support for Hebrew

36:19

stuff or support for right to left right , and

36:21

I knew Hebrew and because

36:24

of because I , like you know , I fell into this passion

36:27

very , very quickly , I started doing things

36:29

that were part of that , of that support , but

36:31

we're not necessarily part of , like , the tasks

36:33

that I was given . I was kind of like I remember

36:35

that there was , for example , one of the tasks was

36:37

we want to make sure that , you know , templates

36:39

are being supported , and

36:42

then I noticed that in order to support templates templates

36:45

there was a new thing coming out template data . And

36:47

template data is a JSON

36:49

string , and so users

36:51

can kind of like save this JSON string that gives

36:54

like a some sort of definition about what a template

36:56

is , that then the software visual editor can read

36:58

and tell you how to fill it out

37:00

, whatever . And I noticed that when you put

37:02

the JSON in the wiki in English

37:04

. It's a little annoying but it's okay . But

37:07

if you put it in a right to left wiki in

37:09

Hebrew , arabic or whatever , it

37:11

is completely mangled . You can't

37:13

understand anything . In fact , it gets worse

37:16

because it's so mangled that you know

37:18

how you have key

37:20

value in

37:23

in in right to left they flip

37:25

. So now you have value key

37:27

and you don't know which one is which and whatever

37:29

. So it was just unworkable and

37:32

I was charged with kind of like helping out how

37:34

to do it . And I'm looking at it and like I

37:36

don't . There's no way to do this with JSON

37:39

properly unless we were like rewrite the internet

37:41

. So I

37:43

built a little interface to kind of like instead of you

37:45

writing down JSON , here's like a UI

37:47

for the user to say what key values they

37:50

want and then it produces the JSON for you , right

37:52

? So I took a lot of stuff where I saw

37:54

right like opportunities a little bit . Again

37:57

, some of it was because I was too lazy . Too

38:01

lazy to copy paste it to somewhere else . And then I

38:03

was like I want something to automatically do it for

38:06

me . And there you go . It's

38:08

kind of you know , engineers are lazy inherently

38:10

, which is how we come up with great stuff

38:12

to save everybody time

38:14

. So it started kind of like with this right

38:16

, and then after I finished , after I graduated

38:19

, I was

38:21

looking a little bit further out and whatever

38:23

. But I kind of knew that I wanted to continue with the

38:25

foundation and I joined in and then I was

38:27

. It was . It was a little bit of both

38:29

in terms of where

38:31

can you go , because there were other

38:33

teams and you could see that there's

38:35

like openings done . So there were a little bit changes and

38:37

I moved to another team where we worked on something

38:40

slightly different . There was still front end , so it was different . And

38:42

then there was an opportunity to lead

38:44

a team , to be a tech lead of

38:46

a team , and I just

38:49

I , you know , I thought about it

38:51

, I submitted it and I went in there . So I became like

38:53

a tech lead of one of the teams and

38:55

that exposed me a little bit to kind of

38:57

like this higher level questions , right

38:59

, instead of just looking at like the code that you need to

39:01

deliver specifically the task whatever

39:03

. Now you're looking at kind of like how should we

39:05

do things a little bit higher level what is

39:07

the architecture of my product , who

39:10

do I need to talk to , and stuff like that . And

39:12

then a couple years after that

39:14

, the team

39:17

opened that was the architecture team , which was

39:19

the tasks on basically thinking about

39:21

these kind of questions , but in a much

39:23

higher level of like what is the

39:25

systemic architecture of Wikipedia

39:27

and everything else ? And they joined that and

39:30

now we're doing basically

39:32

a lot of thinking about

39:34

media wiki as a product instead

39:37

of just this , this platform project , and

39:39

now we're doing so . A lot of it was kind of like these

39:41

opportunities that opened up . Some

39:44

of it was a little bit of self advocacy , of kind

39:46

of like Okay , I think I can do it and raising my

39:48

hand . For some of it was just like seeing

39:50

a door open and checking into it . It

39:54

was a little bit of a mix , but a lot of people ask me if kind

39:56

of like oh my gosh , you're nine years in the same

39:58

place . That is so unusual . Usually software

40:01

engineers just move places right , like you

40:03

work three years in one place and then

40:05

you move to another . And then I asked those people

40:07

why do software engineers do that

40:09

? Usually they do that one

40:11

of two reasons either to get more money , right

40:14

, or to get promoted , and

40:17

unfortunately that's because the way that the industry

40:19

is . But I did get promoted

40:21

. I started as an intern

40:23

and today , nine years later , I am

40:25

a principal engineer that

40:27

works on a lot of strategic stuff . So I did

40:30

get this promote . I didn't need to go , and

40:32

as long as and I don't I mean

40:34

I don't want to say I don't care about money , but I don't work

40:36

for Wikipedia for the money of it , right , like

40:38

I work for the mission , I work for the you know

40:40

, and so I didn't need

40:42

to switch jobs . So I'm not saying

40:45

, you know , never switch jobs

40:47

though , whatever , but I think that that I

40:49

would caution against falling into

40:52

these like expectations

40:54

that people might give . You have kind of like , well , if you can't

40:56

work in some place like for so long , because then

40:58

, I don't know , you'll come out and people will wonder

41:00

why you didn't shift . Well , here's my

41:02

answer for why I didn't Right , and

41:04

I learned a lot and I did a lot . So a

41:07

lot of it was basically open doors , just

41:10

recognizing them .

41:13

And you have to make your own like . It's very important

41:15

to be able to organize the doors to be able

41:18

to grab them when they open . If

41:20

you're not ready for that , you'll miss them . That's

41:23

true . And I guess you

41:25

came back to the , to the passion piece . You're

41:27

where your passion led you and

41:29

you've been talking and moving

41:31

and making gestures all the time . So I guess you

41:35

found the right place and that's that's enough for me

41:37

to not ask the question why have you been there for

41:39

13 years ? It's it's

41:41

enough , or 10 years , I don't know Almost

41:44

10 .

41:44

Yeah , almost

41:47

10 .

41:47

No , fantastic . Thank you for this , for this ride of your

41:50

life in just

41:52

about 40 minutes .

41:53

I know I can't believe it . I was like , All right , we're

41:55

all . The rest of the five , six questions

41:58

. I'm like , Wow , this

42:00

has been the story of my life

42:02

.

42:03

A little bit .

42:04

I'm sure a lot out .

42:05

Yeah , for a different discussion

42:08

. That's true . Before you get there

42:10

, what would be your advice ? If

42:12

somebody wanted to get into open source , what would

42:15

be the way you would advise them to get there

42:17

?

42:18

Oh , okay , there's a whole bunch of ways , but what I would

42:20

recommend I

42:23

think I talked a little bit about this in the beginning

42:25

Find where you're passionate about

42:27

, because I think it's

42:29

true for every place , not just open source every

42:31

place has their pros and cons . You have , like , the

42:33

great moments and then the problem moments

42:35

. Open source has that too . It's online

42:38

, it's on the internet , it's exposed . Everybody can see your

42:40

stuff , everybody comes in , has opinions , all

42:42

of it . So with that , you also have

42:44

that . So if you find , find

42:47

yourself either a group or

42:49

you know some , some

42:52

project you're

42:54

passionate about to join in , so

42:56

that you find people like

42:59

you that you will connect with and will have your

43:01

back right , we'll remind you why you want

43:03

that . That will will put aside like some

43:05

of the noise that you're hearing , because everywhere

43:07

has noise Open source a little

43:09

more . And so find the place that is good for

43:12

you , and there are lots of

43:14

places like that and you can . You can search

43:16

for that are many places to search and there are many places

43:18

to look for them . But find a place

43:20

, not just that , you know . Oh , I just want

43:22

to start . I'll go to whatever I find , because

43:24

sometimes then that you know you don't get into it whatever

43:27

, find a place that will support you and that

43:29

you can find your passion in that's

43:31

. That's the biggest .

43:32

I love the answer . The answer

43:35

I kind of saw in myself

43:37

when I started searching in open source was

43:39

okay , what can I do ? And

43:41

searching for that ? I

43:43

can do C++ , I can do C sharp , I can do Java , I can do

43:45

it . So let's search for projects like this . And

43:48

I went right into a wall . That

43:51

just doesn't work . You have to find a community , you have

43:53

to find a passion , you have to find something that really propels

43:56

you in learning whatever language

43:58

you need to learn to participate .

44:00

And you know what , Find that person in

44:03

XKCD right that holds

44:05

with their bare hands

44:07

the one thing that all the , by the way , commercial

44:10

companies that don't pay for it use , and

44:12

if it will fall down , everything

44:14

will find them because you use

44:16

it . Right , Like you probably use something . Find

44:18

them and then go help them . Right

44:20

, Like , find something that you use , you know

44:22

you have passion about , and then everybody will accept

44:25

you because passion is something that people want to

44:27

see .

44:28

Indeed , we do Amen to that , boyle

44:30

. It's been fantastic . Thank you so much . It's

44:33

been great . Thank you so much . Where

44:35

would be the best place to continue this discussion with

44:37

you and rub off some of that energy

44:40

about open source and get

44:42

hyped about going so ?

44:44

there used to be a network that I was always in

44:46

, but now it's a little bit gone from

44:48

the front and who knows where it's at right

44:50

now .

44:50

Let's not mention it .

44:51

No , so I am in Mastodon

44:54

. It's not a cultsocial

44:57

Slash MuiPu

45:00

. I can give you the stuff , so it probably

45:02

will appear and you can go to my website

45:04

. All my contact information , including

45:06

anywhere that I'm online Morieltech

45:10

. I'm basically

45:12

anywhere everywhere as MuiPu too , so

45:14

you can feel free to contact me , talk

45:16

, ask questions . I would be really , really

45:18

happy , especially if you're interested

45:21

in getting into open source or interested in learning

45:23

about right to left stuff . I am

45:25

around and be happy to help .

45:28

And I'll add a link all the

45:30

links in the show notes , so you didn't get

45:32

them . Just scroll down and click and

45:34

you'll be covered . Moriel , thank

45:37

you so much .

45:38

Thank you .

45:39

Thank you very much , and this has been

45:41

another episode of Dev First Journey . We'll see each

45:43

other next week . Bye , bye . Thanks

45:47

a lot for tuning in . I hope

45:49

you have enjoyed this week's episode . If

45:51

you like the show , please share , rate

45:54

and review . It helps more

45:56

listeners discover those stories

45:58

. You can find the links to all

46:01

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46:03

website , devjourneyinfo

46:05

. Please subscribe

46:07

. Talk to you soon .