0:00

If I asked you how many subscriptions you have, would

0:02

you be able to list all of them and how

0:04

much you're paying? If you would have

0:06

asked me this question before I started using Rocket Money, I

0:08

would have said yes, but let me tell

0:10

you, I would have been so wrong. I

0:13

can't believe how many I had

0:15

and all the money I was

0:17

wasting. Rocket Money is a personal

0:19

finance app that finds and cancels

0:21

your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending,

0:23

and helps lower your bills. Rocket

0:26

Money has over five million users and has

0:28

helped save its members an average of $720

0:30

a year with

0:33

over 500 million in canceled

0:35

subscriptions. Stop wasting money

0:37

on things you don't use. Cancel

0:40

your unwanted subscriptions

0:42

by going to

0:45

rocketmoney.com/Wondery. That's rocketmoney.com/Wondery.

0:48

rocketmoney.com slash

0:50

Wondery. Something

0:52

was wrong is intended for mature

0:54

audiences as it discusses topics that

0:57

can be upsetting, such as emotional,

0:59

physical, and sexual violence, rape, and

1:02

murder. Content warnings for

1:04

each episode and confidential resources

1:06

for survivors can be found

1:08

in the episode notes. Some

1:10

survivor names have been changed for

1:13

anonymity purposes. Pseudonyms are

1:15

given to minors in these stories for

1:17

their privacy and protection. Testimony

1:19

shared by guests of the show is their

1:21

own and does not necessarily

1:24

reflect the views of myself,

1:26

Broken Cycle Media, or Wondery.

1:28

The podcast and any linked

1:30

materials should not be construed

1:32

as medical advice, nor is

1:35

the information a substitute for

1:37

professional medical expertise or treatment.

1:40

Thank you so much for listening. I'm

1:48

Jake Deptula. I started a

1:50

podcast called Strictly Stalking. I

1:52

think it would help for people to probably hear how you

1:55

and I met. So how

1:57

I met Jake is through Amy B. Chesler,

1:59

who works for... for Broken Cycle

2:01

Media, season seven survivor, host

2:03

of What Came Next. She

2:06

spoke so highly of you before we

2:08

met. Amy B. Chesler and

2:10

I met at a domestic violence charity

2:12

event. She and I started talking and

2:15

hit it off. We realized there was

2:17

a kindred spirit when it comes to

2:19

wanting to help people heal, dealing with

2:22

trauma and connect people. We realized we're

2:24

like-minded and taking an ethical and moral

2:26

approach to true crime content. She decided

2:28

to introduce me to you, Tiffany. You

2:31

and I connected and we realized we

2:33

had similar sensibilities when it comes to

2:35

wanting to help survivors and wanting to

2:38

help victims of crime, but also

2:40

using our platform in order to amplify

2:42

those cases. You have a responsibility to

2:44

yourself and you also have a responsibility

2:46

to the survivors that you feature. You

2:48

have a much greater sensitivity than most

2:51

people who are put in positions like

2:53

that. It's a very rare thing, but

2:55

I can see even how you interact

2:57

with people in public and everything else

2:59

like that. You do make people feel

3:01

very, very comfortable. They wanna talk to

3:03

you, which is a gift. So

3:06

it was a natural fit. And even

3:08

on a friendship level, we really hit

3:10

it off in terms of our mutual

3:12

love of Seinfeld, career enthusiasm, pretty much

3:14

anything comedic in that way. It's becoming

3:17

more and more clear to me that

3:19

you and I are very similar people.

3:21

Season 19 is a bit different

3:24

than any other season. We

3:26

are focusing on stalking specifically

3:28

within this season, sharing multiple

3:30

different survivors and their families

3:32

experiences within one season. They

3:34

all have very different outcomes

3:37

and experiences within them. The thing that they

3:40

all have in common is stalking.

3:42

Jake works with the FBI. He

3:44

works with stalking nonprofits. He actually

3:46

is the real fucking deal, which

3:48

is not only rare in life

3:50

and in the entertainment industry, but

3:53

when it comes to men working

3:55

in true crime podcasting, this is

3:57

what he is passionate about. is

4:01

devoting significant amounts of his

4:03

life to helping survivors. Can

4:06

you talk to us about

4:08

what drew you to working

4:10

specifically with stalking survivors and

4:12

what has that work brought out

4:14

in you? First of all,

4:16

I want to thank you for that warm

4:18

and respectful and welcoming introduction. I really appreciate

4:20

you, the amazing incredible work that you do

4:22

and all the healing that you've done for

4:24

so, so many people. And I thank you

4:26

for that, Tiffany. I want to

4:29

be very clear on this. Sometimes when

4:31

you enter these projects or these situations,

4:33

you don't go into it being the

4:36

expert. Sometimes it just happens. Initially, I

4:38

didn't understand how needed a platform like

4:40

this was until we started doing it,

4:42

until we started getting the feedback from

4:45

the survivors and the listeners and identifying

4:47

with those particular aspects of the trauma

4:49

that they were dealing with. Myself

4:52

and my co-host Jamie Beebe speak

4:54

to stalking survivors every week. We

4:56

cover the impact of stalking using

4:58

the platform to amplify their stories. We

5:01

cover everything from how law enforcement responds

5:04

to these particular cases. Everything is in

5:06

the words of the survivors. Jamie and

5:08

I are there to host and moderate.

5:11

It's really opened up my eyes to

5:13

the impact of stalking on survivors and

5:15

how a lot of times they don't

5:17

get the support that they need. And

5:20

when we started talking to these survivors, you

5:22

realize that one story is

5:24

the same, but the behavior

5:27

of the stalkers tends to

5:29

be the same. No matter if

5:31

it's a stranger, whether it's cyber

5:33

or former romantic, whatever that is,

5:35

there are so many different stories.

5:38

What I've also learned is how survivors have

5:40

now taken on the mantle of becoming

5:42

their own advocates. Because there has not

5:44

been the support and because there has

5:47

not been things to help them, they

5:49

end up becoming their own detectives. You

5:52

know that Stephanie, these things can happen for a couple

5:54

weeks, some of them can be decades in

5:56

terms of the stalking statistics.

6:00

Most of them are always evolving. There's

6:02

an estimated 13.5 million people are stalked

6:04

over a one-year period in the US.

6:06

I feel it's got to be a

6:08

lot, lot more than that. I think

6:10

that is based upon people not reporting

6:13

it. Oftentimes stalking

6:15

and domestic violence overlap.

6:19

85% of intimate partner femicides were

6:21

preceded by stalking in the prior

6:23

year. Stalking does

6:26

play a role in that.

6:28

You see cases where stalking

6:30

was literally a red light

6:32

of activity of everyone was

6:34

on notice and then it

6:37

turns into a homicide

6:39

situation. Stalking is

6:41

a crime under laws of the 50 states, but

6:44

it really takes people to enforce those. Where we

6:46

are with how long it takes bills to pass,

6:48

it's a very difficult thing, but you do need

6:50

people to enforce that. When

6:52

it comes to the laws in the 50

6:54

states, you can be in a big city

6:57

and think you're going to get support because

6:59

they've got stronger police force and this and

7:01

that and you get nothing. You go to

7:03

a small town and a sheriff will drive

7:05

by your house to make sure everything's okay.

7:08

It really does vary state to state.

7:10

It varies on condition. It varies on what

7:12

type of stalking it is. Is it cyber

7:14

stalking? Is it in person? Is it someone

7:16

that you have previously been involved with?

7:18

There are so many factors when it comes

7:21

to this. Most of

7:23

the time, stalkers are someone that someone

7:25

knows. It can be a romantic interest.

7:27

It could be someone you go to

7:29

school with. It could be someone you

7:32

work with. It could be a relative.

7:34

There's no definite answer to a profile

7:37

of a stalker, but

7:39

only identifying stalking behavior.

7:42

There are so many different ways

7:44

that a stalker can present themselves.

7:47

It becomes a very daunting task

7:49

to identify who could be a

7:51

stalker and at what point in

7:54

their life they are capable of

7:56

stalking. You have people that literally

7:58

go through decades. and decades

8:00

and all of a sudden something snaps

8:03

in them and they become obsessed with

8:05

someone or they become

8:07

predatory in a way that they

8:10

never even imagined. It's

8:12

hard to identify how someone could

8:14

become a stalker because a lot

8:16

of times it happens with a

8:18

spurned romantic relationship, breakup goes bad,

8:20

they don't take it right and

8:23

they become the rejected stalker or

8:25

the resentful stalker and then you

8:27

have delusional stalkers. They make up

8:29

some sort of relationship in their

8:31

head. Eratomania, erotically they're obsessed. It's

8:34

a psychological delusional disorder. They believe

8:36

that the target or the object

8:38

of their obsession is in love

8:40

with them. The types of stalkers

8:42

would be classified as the intimacy

8:45

seeker, the rejected stalker, the resentful

8:47

stalker. The problem is when you

8:50

have content in the media that

8:52

romanticizes stalking and trivializes it. And

8:54

a lot of times publicity is

8:57

achieved through celebrity stalking. Oftentimes when

8:59

it comes to what we've seen

9:01

in formerly known as like revenge

9:03

porn, image-based abuse, non-consensual pornography, anything

9:06

being shared like that, it usually

9:08

is done as a way to

9:10

harass and then eventually stalk the

9:12

target. It can be a hacker.

9:14

It can be somebody who got

9:17

access to that. It can be

9:19

somebody who paid another person to

9:21

do that. It really is not

9:23

as cut and dry. We can

9:25

manipulate content through just our phones

9:27

now, through AI apps. Reputation damage

9:29

can be done once something goes

9:31

out. Once we put it out

9:33

there, you don't go backwards. Sometimes

9:35

people will hack into other people's

9:37

phones and obviously all that's criminal

9:39

and it's illegal, but it's hard

9:42

to identify where those

9:44

things are going to

9:46

happen. So I think on a

9:48

psychological level, it is a very complex thing

9:50

to analyze, but it's hard to analyze until

9:52

someone steps forward and says, okay, here's the

9:54

pattern of behavior that this person is using

9:56

on me. The other thing I want to

9:59

talk about is Another problem is identifying

10:01

that pattern of behavior. We've had so

10:03

many people that until they start listening

10:05

to these stories, they don't know that

10:07

they've been stopped. And that's

10:09

one of those really interesting things

10:11

that when they listen, no matter

10:13

at times how traumatic that can

10:15

be, it stirs something up in

10:17

them. It unblocks certain things. It

10:20

really does take law enforcement to

10:22

care about you and care about

10:24

the situation. The issue is most

10:26

law enforcement divisions are not equipped

10:29

to deal with the cyber element

10:31

of stalking. They are equipped to

10:33

deal with in-person situations. If you're

10:35

filing restraining order and you have

10:38

evidence that you're being cyberstalked, there

10:40

isn't necessarily a way that someone

10:42

can tie that cyberstalking

10:44

back to the person who is

10:46

your stalker, especially if they're using

10:49

things that disguise their behavior and

10:51

especially if companies aren't willing to

10:53

give that information out at that

10:56

level. You're talking about subpoenas. You're

10:58

talking about months, if not years

11:00

to get to that point. There

11:03

was a time when people thought you do a cease

11:05

and desist to a website and it's gone, but

11:08

it's really not gone. Companies need

11:10

to do a better job protecting their employees.

11:12

If they are in a place where security

11:14

is an issue, they need to ramp up

11:16

security. And the legislators

11:18

need to address that on

11:20

that level because it's very

11:22

difficult to track behavior. Apps

11:25

have made it so sophisticated that you

11:27

can fake your phone number. You can

11:29

fake an account. These aren't even tools

11:32

that people are just using for stalking.

11:34

They're just using to conceal themselves from

11:36

being a sales call or something else.

11:38

It's hard for those laws to even catch

11:41

up with that. One of

11:43

the major issues when it

11:45

comes to legislation with cyberstalking

11:47

laws is keeping up with

11:50

the technology. As we know,

11:52

how slow government can

11:54

often be when it comes to proposing these, when

11:56

it comes to mostly advocates and survivors, not just

11:58

for the sake of the public. on

12:00

the doors of Congress trying

12:03

to get these things passed is

12:05

a very difficult thing. It's

12:07

Kismet that we are working

12:09

on season 19 surrounding stalking.

12:12

It's the 20-year anniversary

12:14

of Stalking Awareness Month. Can you

12:16

talk to us about Stalking Awareness Month

12:18

and why you feel it's important? Absolutely.

12:21

I had the honor of

12:23

meeting Debbie Riddle. Debbie Riddle

12:25

is an advocate

12:28

and sister of Peggy

12:30

Clinky who was stalked and

12:32

murdered by her ex-boyfriend. All

12:35

the signs were there of Peggy

12:37

being in danger, Peggy being stalked,

12:39

leading up to her murder. Yet

12:42

when Debbie looked for laws, for

12:44

resources, there weren't things in place

12:46

that could protect her sister from

12:49

having to meet this fate. She

12:51

told anyone who would listen to

12:53

her story refuse

12:55

to remain silent and call out all

12:57

the failures in our criminal justice system

13:00

and then went on a mission to

13:02

get the system fixed. She caught the

13:04

attention of Tracy Baum who's the director

13:06

of the Stalking Resource Center and they

13:08

took Peggy's story to Washington DC. They

13:10

testified a congressional briefing and then January

13:12

was declared National Stalking Awareness Month.

13:15

When you hear the passion, energy,

13:17

and the tribute that she has

13:19

for her sister, it's hard to

13:22

listen to because you realize this

13:24

is the worst ending of a

13:26

stalking situation that can happen for

13:28

someone. Then you listen to Debbie

13:30

and you realize the honor

13:32

and the tribute of this mission to

13:34

make sure that her sister's name and

13:37

this movement is at the forefront of

13:39

what we need to address. I'm

13:41

beyond thrilled and beyond honored to be

13:44

able to promote and share January 18th

13:46

is going to be a day of

13:48

action. Debbie said that Peggy

13:50

had this sparkle tour and January 18th

13:52

is going to be a day where

13:55

we all want to wear something that adds

13:57

a little bit of flair, a little bit

13:59

of sparkle. to capture who Peggy

14:01

was and what she stood for.

14:03

And I think that beyond that, some of

14:05

the inroads that they've made through this month

14:07

and this day and now 20 years is

14:09

just, it's remarkable.

14:12

I know that so many survivors

14:14

that we speak with utilize SPARK

14:16

and they utilize this

14:18

month as a way to get the

14:20

awareness across. SPARK is

14:23

a wonderful organization which stands

14:25

for Stalking Prevention Awareness and

14:27

Resource Center. The website is

14:30

stalkingawareness.org. They basically

14:32

have all the information that you would

14:34

need in terms of understanding stalking. Thank

14:37

you so much. One of the things

14:39

that we'll see within the survivors

14:42

sharing their different stalking stories within

14:44

this season is the impact that

14:46

it has on their family members,

14:48

their coworkers, and their friends. In

14:51

your experience in working with survivors, what

14:54

does that often look like for those who

14:56

love them and how does the sort of

14:58

ripple effect happen within stalking itself? This

15:01

is a very complicated question.

15:03

So I'm going to start

15:05

with having family that's very

15:07

supportive and very proactive with

15:09

wanting to get whatever the

15:11

situation is resolved, wanting to

15:13

address it. The second is

15:15

where family friends question the

15:18

victim and survivor based on

15:20

their behavior and based on

15:22

what they could or could

15:24

not have done differently, which

15:26

I find extremely tragic and

15:28

I find extremely destructive because

15:30

it's hard enough to share these

15:32

things. So many survivors don't want to

15:34

share this because they don't want to

15:37

feel re-victimized. A lot of times they

15:39

suffer in silence. The third part is

15:41

when the family friends are

15:44

also being stalked by the

15:46

person who is stalking

15:49

the original victim. This

15:51

becomes a very complicated

15:53

thing where the original

15:56

stalking victim feels

15:58

guilty, feels shame. shame

16:00

for bringing this person into their

16:02

life. I would say more

16:04

often than not, families are supportive. They

16:07

want to bring peace, bring help to

16:09

whatever they can, but a lot of

16:11

survivors don't share this with their families.

16:13

And that's what Stalker's Brown. Part

16:16

of their scheme is knowing to silence the

16:18

survivor and they gaslight them and they try

16:20

to put them in a position where they

16:22

don't want the victim to be believed. And

16:25

they accomplish it far too often. But

16:27

you have to share these things. If something

16:29

is happening, it's not only going to alleviate

16:32

part of the trauma and what you're

16:34

experiencing, but also it's a level of

16:36

documentation and it's a level of not

16:38

having to carry that burden in your

16:40

mind, body and soul from a perpetrator,

16:42

from someone who's damaging your life consistently.

16:45

What advice would you give to someone who

16:48

is experiencing stalking? I would suggest

16:50

if you feel like you're in any immediate threat, always

16:52

call 911. Don't even hesitate

16:54

about it. Don't second-guess it. It's there for you.

16:57

Let them make the determination for you. I

16:59

would say go to Spark. They

17:03

have a documentation journal that you can keep

17:05

all these things together. They have a red

17:07

exit button. So if you need to escape

17:09

out of that site quickly, which is, I

17:11

know, a very common thing when it comes

17:13

to any domestic violence that someone in your

17:15

life could be monitoring. In terms

17:18

of journaling, why it's important is

17:20

that you need to get down

17:22

a timeline. And that's the hardest

17:25

part, I think, with stalking is

17:27

that things don't happen consistently. Your

17:30

instinct in your gut will tell you something

17:32

doesn't feel right. Even if you don't have

17:34

the tactical evidence of that, mark it down

17:36

because we've heard so many cases where people

17:38

say, I felt I was being monitored and

17:40

they ended up being right. Jump

17:42

six months a year down the road. If your

17:45

case goes to a certain level, you may be

17:47

able to subpoena tech companies. You may be able

17:49

to get the security camera footage

17:51

from the location you were at.

17:53

And guess what? You may find

17:55

that your stalker was sitting in the parking lot. I can't

17:57

tell you how many times that's happened in terms of finding.

18:00

out that your instinct and your gut was

18:02

telling you that someone was nearby or something

18:04

was going on, document it every single time.

18:06

Write it out. Any point

18:08

of concern, always document that. Law enforcement,

18:11

the way that they work is they

18:13

work off evidence. Even

18:15

if you don't have evidence, keep

18:17

a journal. Those things will

18:19

help. That will definitely make a major impact

18:22

with law enforcement and in courts if that

18:24

ever goes to that point. When

18:27

they do these things, gather

18:29

up this particular evidence and

18:31

if this evidence impacts them and

18:33

impacts their business, we're seeing an

18:36

uptick in civil suits against stalkers.

18:39

This is not something that you

18:41

wouldn't enter lightly but there are

18:43

lawyers out there that deal specifically

18:45

with image-based abuse which is also

18:47

known as revenge porn. There

18:49

are lawyers out there that

18:51

deal with cyber terrorism, cyber

18:53

stalking, cyber harassment, especially if

18:56

it impacts any level of

18:58

your financial well-being. It's much

19:00

more difficult to prove on

19:02

the emotional level unfortunately but

19:04

when it comes to financial,

19:06

we've had other creators and

19:08

businesses lose money. They've

19:10

taken their stalkers to court. That's a

19:13

whole other realm of justice. There are

19:15

things out there that will help you.

19:17

It really does start with documentation and

19:19

sharing your story, whoever you have

19:21

available to listen. We're in

19:23

a climate now where people are

19:25

actually believing survivors. One

19:27

story comes out and then another story

19:29

comes out. Now everybody's got a platform.

19:31

People have the ability to speak up

19:34

but also they're using the software and

19:36

using the technology that ultimately can also

19:38

allow access to damaging content. Not

19:40

to sound overwhelming with it but I think

19:42

the bottom line is that from a safety

19:44

standpoint, try to protect as

19:46

much as you can. Read the fine print on things you download. Don't

19:49

geotag certain things. There's

19:51

information brokers out there that sell your information.

19:53

They put it on these free websites where

19:55

you can look up addresses and phone numbers.

19:57

A lot of those sites, you can... request

20:00

to have that information pulled down. Things don't leak

20:02

out but you don't have to make it easy

20:04

for people to find you in that way. Being

20:07

an ally yourself, how can others

20:10

who are not experiencing stalking show

20:12

up for stalking survivors? The first

20:14

thing I say is just listen.

20:16

Don't be judgmental. Listen.

20:19

Let them share what they're going

20:21

through. Don't discount anything they're saying

20:23

because it is so

20:25

difficult for someone to share what's going

20:27

on. If you want to show up

20:30

for people, just listen to them especially

20:32

with somebody close to you. If it's

20:34

a family member, significant other, a friend,

20:36

co-worker, whatever it is, then from there,

20:38

if they need help, if there's situation

20:40

and you're in a position to do

20:42

it, let's say they're being stalked through

20:45

different cyber aspects, emails, texts,

20:47

Instagram, TikTok, offer services to monitor

20:49

if need be their accounts so

20:52

you can remove some of that

20:54

trauma from them by still documenting

20:56

it. Because you need evidence, you

20:59

want to capture all the harassment. The problem is

21:01

how traumatizing that can be. So if you're in

21:03

a strong place and you can be there for

21:05

your friend and you can do this and

21:08

they would appreciate your support, offer that

21:10

up. It's always going to help

21:13

to have someone in your corner and

21:15

just be non-judgmental. Just be there. Listen.

21:17

Help and support. People ask me,

21:19

do you get numb hearing these stories?

21:21

I said, no, I get more sensitive.

21:23

I get more angry. I get more

21:26

passionate about doing something in advocacy, doing

21:28

a lot of behind the scenes stuff

21:30

that I've been doing. I want

21:32

to be able to help survivors in whatever

21:34

way I can. Thank you

21:37

so much for the work that

21:39

you do for being willing to

21:41

share your sage advice for the

21:43

advocacy that you do on a

21:45

daily basis. This is a great

21:48

way to enter the season, share

21:50

advice and information that not only

21:52

helps us grow in our empathy

21:54

and support of survivors but educates

21:56

us ourselves. Thank you so, so

21:58

much for being willing to share your passion. to help

22:01

me kick off this very important

22:03

season bringing awareness to stalking and

22:05

amplifying the voices of stalking survivors.

22:08

Jake D'Abtula strictly stalking. Ice-T Connoisseur

22:10

of the universe thank you my

22:12

friend for being here. Tiffany it's

22:14

a privilege to know you and

22:16

call you a friend. I really

22:19

applaud you for everything you're doing.

22:21

None of this is easy but

22:23

the rewards and the gravity. I

22:25

really thank you tremendously for this

22:27

opportunity. Listeners

23:03

we have a new show that

23:05

we think you're going to love.

23:07

From Wondery and hosted by Laura

23:09

Beale the critically acclaimed Doctor Death

23:11

is back with a new season.

23:14

Doctor Death Bad Magic. When a

23:16

charismatic hotshot doctor announced revolutionary treatments

23:18

for cancer and HIV it seemed

23:20

like the world had been given

23:22

a miracle cure. Medical experts rushed

23:24

to praise Sirhot Gamruku as a

23:26

genius but when a team of

23:28

private researchers dive into Sirhats background

23:30

they begin to suspect that the

23:33

brilliant doctor is hiding a shocking

23:35

secret and when a man is

23:37

found dead in the snow with

23:39

his wrist shackled and bullet casings

23:41

speckling the snowbank Sirhat would no

23:43

longer be known for world-changing treatments.

23:45

He'd be known as a fraud

23:47

and a key suspect in a

23:49

grisly murder. Follow Doctor Death Bad

23:52

Magic on the Wondery app or

23:54

wherever you get your podcasts. You

23:56

can listen to Doctor Death Bad

23:58

Magic early and ad free right

24:00

now by joining Wondery Plus. Being

24:03

an actual royal is never about finding your happy

24:06

ending. But the worst part is, if they step

24:08

out of line or fall in love with the

24:10

wrong person, it changes the

24:12

course of history. I'm

24:15

Arisha Skidmore-Williams. And I'm Brooke

24:17

Sifrin. We've been telling the stories of the

24:19

rich and famous on the hit Wondery show,

24:21

Even the Rich, and talking about the latest

24:24

celebrity news on Rich and Daily. We're going

24:26

all over the world on our new show,

24:28

Even the Royals. We'll be

24:30

diving headfirst into the lives of the

24:32

world's kings, queens, and all the wannabes

24:34

in their orbit throughout history. Think succession

24:36

meets the crown meets real life. We're

24:38

going to pull back the gilded curtain

24:40

and show how royal status might be

24:42

bright and shiny, but it comes at

24:45

the expense of, well, everything else. Like

24:47

your freedom, your privacy, and sometimes

24:49

even your head. Follow Even

24:51

the Royals on the Wondery app or wherever you

24:54

get your podcasts. You can listen to Even the

24:56

Royals early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery

24:58

Plus. Hello,

25:06

I'm Amy's mom, Sherry. A little bit

25:08

about me. I am a registered nurse.

25:11

I also have done real estate

25:14

for many years. I am

25:16

loving and always have loved to be

25:18

a mom. I'm very dedicated to my

25:20

family, especially to my children that God

25:22

has entrusted to me. I used to

25:24

always say I grew up with wolves. I

25:26

realize now that is derogatory towards wolves because

25:28

wolves, they do what they do because

25:30

they have to survive. So it's either for hunger or

25:33

survival. The human brain does it because

25:35

they choose to do it. My background is

25:37

a severely abusive family background. And so I

25:39

think that I mention that because it's even

25:41

more important to me when I met my

25:43

husband, my colleague, Sweetheart. We've been married for

25:45

40 years this coming August. When

25:47

you're married that long, you're going to have your ups

25:49

and downs. Life's going to throw curve balls at you.

25:51

We served in the Air Force and we served in

25:53

a border city. I did home care down there and

25:55

there was just a lot of things that really grew

25:57

us up down there because we saw a lot. We

26:00

love the people and we loved our community, but

26:02

there was a lot. Life does that. It throws

26:04

different things at you. We don't really

26:06

like to be confrontational, but that's going to happen,

26:08

right? Communication. I always go back to the fact

26:10

that I was drawing myself now hold it. Before

26:12

we go into this, why did

26:14

I marry him? Why did I choose this man?

26:16

Because when you really go back and you think

26:18

all those years ago, why did I choose this

26:21

person to live with for the rest of my

26:23

life? It gets you more

26:25

everything more in perspective. It really does. It

26:28

doesn't mean you ignore the issues at hand and you

26:30

don't confront what needs to be confronted, but you

26:32

do it in a more civil way

26:34

and that helps keep a marriage too

26:36

because you're not using any

26:38

type of abusive language or anything like that. And

26:40

then keeping a sense of humor about it and

26:42

also giving a cooling off period. Honestly,

26:45

never going to bed angry is really a

26:47

huge thing is to get it worked out,

26:49

but always go back to why you married

26:51

him. Keep a good sense of humor about

26:53

things and about yourself, not just your spouse,

26:56

but yourself. Really, that's the biggest thing. I've

26:58

been dedicated to having a healthy,

27:01

non-abusive family. So for me to

27:03

be sitting here speaking to the situation today

27:05

just seems very surreal. These people

27:08

exist. And yet again, because of

27:10

how I was raised, I know they do. It's

27:12

just something that I didn't be happening in my own

27:14

family. I'm Amy's father,

27:16

Kevin. I'm a computer professional. I work

27:18

in the IT industry. I will

27:20

tell you that the hardest part of parenting is

27:23

letting go and allowing your children to go out

27:25

in the world and make their own mistakes. When

27:27

they're small, you're always there to catch them to

27:29

help avoid that treat that's in the middle of

27:31

the road for them. But as they get older

27:33

and they have more independence, they branch

27:36

out and that's just the way it is. And

27:38

so you have to let them emerge into the world on

27:40

their own. And as they go into the

27:43

dating world and they move on to

27:45

having relationships, growing as people and

27:47

individuals, you've got to let them grow

27:49

into the person that they are. Having

27:52

two daughters, you eventually get a comfort

27:54

with it. I was at that point

27:56

where I had a comfort and Amy

27:58

is very mature and... intelligent, I

28:00

trust her judgment in the dating world.

28:04

I have loved Amy all of her life the

28:06

way that a tender loving mother should

28:08

because Amy, she's easy to love. She's

28:10

always been so full of joy, so

28:13

full of adventurous spirit, full

28:15

of loving, caring and compassion

28:18

for others, especially the underdog.

28:21

She is all about fairness, which

28:23

I love about her, justice. She's

28:26

so hardworking. She's always willing

28:28

to go the extra mile for her work,

28:30

for others and for her

28:32

God. She has a

28:34

wonderful sense of humor. She's able

28:36

to laugh at herself. She's able to love deeply,

28:38

which I think is a gift. It's

28:41

never just about her. She's always

28:43

volunteering. She cares about her parents.

28:45

She really sincerely cares about us, even though we

28:47

might be driving her crazy at times. She

28:50

sincerely loves us and

28:52

her sister, her grandparents, she cares

28:54

about the legacy that she's leaving.

28:57

She's an amazing business owner.

28:59

She will go to the end

29:01

of the earth to do the right thing. There's just

29:04

so many things welling up inside of me about

29:06

how terrific she really is. She's

29:08

very ethical and highly honest in integrity.

29:11

She's brave and she's courageous as seen through her

29:13

story. She really wants to help

29:15

others when they can't find it within themselves.

29:17

She sincerely wants to help because she knows

29:19

the healing that will come out of that.

29:22

She is not afraid to confront darkness

29:25

and thank goodness for that.

29:28

She's not fearful to be really authentic.

29:31

We've seen her have to go through

29:33

a lot during this cyber-stalking process and

29:35

we understand better than we ever

29:38

did before how misunderstood this crime

29:40

is. To describe

29:42

Amy, let me just put it this

29:44

way. If I was given a blank

29:46

slate of paper and asked to describe

29:49

the ideal son or daughter,

29:52

I don't think I could come close the way she turned out. She's

29:55

a pretty amazing young woman. She has

29:57

always been that way even when she

29:59

was a small... child. She was

30:01

always very rule-conscious, she worked hard

30:04

and she's always been very self-confident.

30:06

When she was just in elementary school,

30:09

she would organize all the kids together

30:11

and she would be the boss and

30:13

she would get everybody organized and they

30:15

would do car washes or lemonade stands.

30:17

She always loved being assertive, not afraid

30:20

to take chances and reach for

30:22

that golden ring. She's very

30:24

motivated and very professional. She's also

30:26

very sensitive person and I think

30:28

sometimes that vulnerability can be a

30:31

little difficult at times. I've

30:33

seen that with her through this ordeal. Amy,

30:36

she's just got that

30:38

really infectious, joyous personality,

30:41

warm person but she's

30:43

also incredibly sharp and smart.

30:46

She instills confidence in her personal

30:49

and professional relationships because of

30:51

the care that she brings.

30:53

I think she's a really

30:55

dynamic woman and an

30:57

amazing business leader and a very

30:59

caring friend. Amy is really

31:01

prudent. She likes to have

31:03

all of the information to make

31:06

well-informed decisions. She

31:09

definitely leans on expertise

31:11

and counsel in any situation

31:13

to listen and understand but

31:16

then I think she doesn't

31:18

waffle. She's very direct with

31:21

her decision-making. She's very friendly

31:23

to interact with on

31:25

a professional way too, very

31:28

understanding, committed to the work

31:30

at hand so she doesn't

31:32

miss deadlines. Amy

31:34

is one of the steadiest and strongest

31:36

people I know. She has a very

31:39

bright personality but she's also very consistent

31:41

and very level-headed. She is

31:43

a joy to be around. She is

31:45

a rock in our company for our

31:47

younger folks. She's a great mentor. She

31:49

believes a lot in giving back to

31:51

the community and makes great efforts to

31:54

do that. She has a great sense of

31:56

humor. She's a joy to

31:58

be around. She's very thoughtful about. other

32:00

people and the impact that she's making with

32:02

what we do in the business and within

32:04

the community. She talks a lot

32:06

about her family and she gets together

32:08

with them often. I know she's very

32:10

close with her sister and her mom

32:12

and dad. Her mom helps out regularly

32:14

with her puppy and comes and watches

32:17

it I think weekly so that Amy

32:19

has this flexibility to work late and

32:21

often difficult hours so she is very

32:23

close to the family. Amy

32:25

is a person who consistently sees

32:27

the best in others and always

32:29

goes the extra mile to ensure

32:31

others around her feel loved and supported.

32:35

She's magnetic and you want to

32:37

spend time with her. Amy's also

32:39

a person who is truly accelerated

32:41

and everything that she puts her

32:43

mind to and has poured her

32:45

entire life into the business that

32:48

she has created both for herself

32:50

individually as well as for our company. Amy

32:53

has a delicate ability to gain trust

32:55

from others and that's through vulnerability. She's

32:58

truly special in how she

33:02

can really gain trust

33:04

from others and it's

33:06

her ability to be vulnerable and

33:09

authentic that she can build

33:11

really long-lasting relationships. Amy's

33:13

relationship with her parents is

33:16

one of the sweetest. Her

33:19

mother barely breaks five feet tall

33:21

but has so much

33:24

spice and energy

33:26

and absolutely loves

33:30

her daughter. The amount of

33:32

advocacy that they have shared for

33:34

Amy and being there right alongside

33:36

her has just been so wonderful

33:40

to watch. Not only does Amy

33:42

feel supported by her team but

33:45

she feels unconditional support by her

33:47

parents and they are

33:49

just truly wonderful people. Hi,

33:53

I'm Amy's sister. I would describe her as

33:56

one of the most ambitious,

33:58

hard-working, genuinely generous

34:01

people in the entire world.

34:03

She's really special in that she really connects

34:06

with people and wants to do good in this

34:08

world and has worked very hard

34:10

to get where she is in this world and I

34:12

just respect her so much for that. As

34:14

my older sister, those qualities have shown through

34:17

even since we were young. We're

34:19

two years apart. She's always very

34:21

aware of taking care of me and everybody

34:23

around her and I just always have valued

34:26

that about her. She's just such a good person

34:28

and means well in this world so she's been

34:30

a great example for me as an older sister.

34:32

Since we were little and even now I feel

34:34

like I can depend on her. She's much more

34:36

quick-witted than I am. I've always been a little

34:38

bit more quiet and she can just navigate social

34:40

situations in a way that's just so graceful. It's

34:42

just fun to watch her interact with the world

34:44

that way. I would say we've always

34:47

been close. My parents moved to a couple of different

34:49

states that weren't their home states and we landed in

34:51

a place where we didn't have a lot of extended

34:54

family around us. So us four

34:56

have always just been there for each other

34:58

and helped each other out and we've always

35:00

been a team. We've just kind of weathered

35:02

things together and obviously it's not perfect and

35:04

it make any families ever perfect but I

35:07

think we just try our best. I know

35:09

now that I'm older how rare that is

35:11

and I value it so much. Moving

35:14

through life more and more I'm super

35:16

super appreciative and grateful for it.

35:19

Hi I'm Amy. I

35:21

am from Denver, Colorado. I grew

35:24

up in a very average suburban

35:26

home with a family who is

35:28

very loving and supportive and caring.

35:30

I would say just your average

35:32

American family, middle-class, really

35:35

grew up striving to make my parents

35:37

happy which I think has carried into

35:40

my adult years. My parents

35:42

are Midwesterners born and raised and very

35:44

much raised my sister and I with

35:46

those roots humble genuine authentic

35:48

people who care a lot about others

35:50

and want to do their part to

35:52

make the world a better place. My

35:55

faith was a big part of my childhood mainly

35:58

led by my mom, Christmas. This is

36:00

my mom's favorite holiday and one that has

36:02

become very important to my family. My

36:05

parents are very hardworking. They both put

36:07

themselves through college. They had

36:09

very little support. I saw

36:11

them work very hard to support

36:13

my sister and I, oftentimes working

36:16

two jobs. My dad worked two jobs,

36:18

I remember very vividly, to pay

36:20

for a trip to Disney World for my family.

36:22

You know, it's something that stuck with me. I

36:24

know how hard they had to work to provide

36:27

for us, and I never felt like I was

36:29

lacking growing up by any means, but I do

36:31

know that my parents worked very hard to provide

36:33

the life that we had. I have

36:35

a younger sister. She's a high school teacher.

36:37

She's a couple years younger than me, one

36:39

of my best friends and huge

36:42

supporter. She and I are

36:44

very close, grew up very close. She

36:46

was very much more of a tomboy and

36:48

I was very much the girly girl. We

36:50

grew up next to an open field, so

36:52

we were always doing something barefoot outside in

36:55

the summers, drumming up trouble with our neighbors

36:57

in the cul-de-sac and having a blast doing

36:59

it. I'm very lucky to have the family

37:01

that I do, as I'm saying

37:03

that, thinking of how supportive they've

37:05

been with this situation, it's just

37:08

almost tears of happiness. In

37:20

2016, I was 31. I

37:23

was well into my career with a

37:25

large corporate company at the time. I

37:27

think we all go through a little

37:29

something when we turned 30 and so

37:31

at that point, I really felt like

37:33

I'm officially an adult and people now

37:36

respect me. At 31, I was working

37:38

a lot. I had just gotten out

37:40

of a brief relationship with somebody who

37:42

blindsided me and breaking up with me, so I

37:44

think I was pretty vulnerable. At the time,

37:46

dating sites back then were different than

37:49

they are now. I had

37:51

heard that the guy I was dating was

37:53

on Plenty of Fish and I had not

37:55

heard of this dating site in particular. So

37:57

I joined and that is where I met...

38:00

Morrison, who at the time

38:02

I knew as Eric. He

38:04

described himself as

38:07

a 33-year-old male,

38:09

non-religious, athletic. He

38:12

had told me he was in

38:14

Denver. He had a PhD in

38:16

aviation analytics and engineering, which

38:18

isn't surprising because Denver had the

38:21

big presence of aerospace, both government

38:23

and private sector. It didn't seem

38:26

too outlandish. He had brown

38:28

eyes, his photos had his dog and

38:30

then his golden retriever on a boat,

38:32

on a beach. He had

38:34

a professional photo on his profile

38:37

along with a photo next to him

38:39

standing next to a plane. It

38:41

just seemed like a down-to-earth,

38:43

good-looking, genuine, good-hearted guy. It's

38:46

about me. I think it's worth reading

38:49

it directly to you because I think it depicts who

38:51

I thought I was talking to. So

38:53

he said, well, this is my first time on

38:55

Plenty of Fish. So I'm not really sure what

38:57

I should include in this part of my profile.

38:59

I guess I can start off by stating that

39:01

I was born in Tampa, Florida but grew up

39:03

in Atlanta. After high school, I

39:05

attended Georgia Tech where I received a

39:07

degree in aeronautical engineering. Upon graduating from

39:09

Tech, I served as a commissioned officer

39:11

in the US Air Force. I

39:14

received my honorable discharge to enter the

39:16

private sector several years ago and have

39:18

since completed my PhD in engineering.

39:21

While I miss flying, I'm blessed to work

39:23

in a job in the aviation industry, which

39:25

I absolutely love. I moved

39:27

to Denver earlier this year and while I really

39:29

enjoy living here, I must admit that I haven't

39:31

really been able to make very many friends. In

39:33

fact, most of the people I know are the

39:35

people with whom I work. I like going out

39:37

with friends to grab dinner and drinks or

39:39

doing anything outdoors like going to the beach

39:41

or going skiing. I've always been a

39:43

fairly active, adventurous guy who embraces new experiences.

39:46

I realized that any major city is saturated

39:48

with young, single guys, most of whom appear

39:50

to be on Plenty of Fish, LOL. So

39:53

I just want to say that I'm a very

39:55

genuine guy looking to meet and actually get to

39:57

know the right person. I'd like to meet an

39:59

intelligent, strong person. willed woman who loves to

40:01

travel, go out and have fun. It would

40:03

also be pretty damn cool if she shared

40:05

my passion for flying, but that's probably asking

40:07

for too much with a smiley face. Then

40:10

at below he says, and don't send me

40:12

just a high message, I'm looking for something

40:14

really genuine. My dad has his

40:16

private pilot's license, he was in the Air

40:18

Force. There were some foundational connections that resonated

40:20

with me and I thought we would hit

40:22

it off just based on some

40:24

familial and common interest and

40:26

experiences. One of the things that

40:29

probably resonated with me is who he

40:31

wanted to meet is exactly who I

40:33

was. You know, he wanted to meet

40:35

an intelligent, strong-willed woman who loves to

40:37

travel, go out and have fun. That's

40:39

me. So we connected fairly quickly. He

40:41

started to build trust with me.

40:43

We had good conversation, wholesome. I

40:45

think that's the word that best describes who

40:47

I believed I was talking to at the

40:49

time. I do view myself

40:51

then and now as intelligent. I don't

40:53

think I'm overly innocent. I know I

40:56

was vulnerable at the time when I

40:58

met him and I think that did

41:00

play into our interactions and my openness

41:02

to engaging with him in the ways

41:04

that I did at the time. But

41:06

I know people who have been catfish,

41:08

I was aware of all of that.

41:10

So I went into this eyes wide

41:12

open and yet I still ended up

41:14

meeting somebody who wasn't who they

41:16

said they were. I keep trying to

41:18

think of what the initial conversation was. We

41:21

talked a lot about his dog and we

41:23

connected. Although I have a lot of this

41:25

documented now, I don't have those conversations. But

41:27

I can tell you I've gone over and

41:29

over again. How did he build trust so

41:31

quickly with me to manipulate the

41:33

situation and manipulate me over just a

41:36

matter of weeks? The way he did

41:38

that is he said on these apps,

41:40

I like to ask three questions that

41:42

are general getting to know you questions

41:44

and three dating type of questions.

41:47

And I thought, oh, that's creative.

41:49

No one's engaged with me like

41:52

that on any other site or

41:54

app at this point. So it was intriguing to me

41:56

and he pulled me in saying, I'll ask

41:58

you three questions. you ask me three

42:00

questions?" That's what we started doing. He's

42:03

asking me questions, getting to know me.

42:06

I'm a very open, vulnerable person in

42:08

general. I have nothing to hide.

42:10

I'm comfortable in my skin and who I

42:12

am and so I was very open in

42:14

responding to questions he asked me and to

42:16

be honest, I don't know specifically what some

42:18

of the general questions were. I'm sure it

42:20

was very basic. Where are you from? What

42:22

do you like to do? All those sorts

42:24

of things. I remember there were a few

42:27

that he did ask at one point that

42:29

I was kind of like, that's an odd

42:31

hobby or that's an interesting response. One

42:33

of his second languages was German, he said.

42:35

I didn't think anything of it. I mean,

42:37

he's got his doctorate. He's had a lot

42:39

of schooling and he's been in the US

42:42

Air Force. To me, it wasn't

42:44

a red flag. But at one point,

42:46

he said he was a big history

42:48

buff and he collected memorabilia of the

42:50

German Nazi era. I didn't think it

42:52

was anything specifically Nazi related. But there

42:54

was one question that will continue to

42:56

haunt me for years later. He asked

42:58

me about a dating experience, a one-night

43:00

stand I had and I told him

43:02

it was with a bartender that I

43:04

met at a restaurant. I was out

43:06

celebrating my birthday with my best friend

43:08

and we hit it off with the

43:10

bartender at the restaurant we were at

43:13

and we had a one-night stand

43:15

and that's it. But he dug

43:18

deeper. He asked very specific details like what

43:20

was I wearing? He wanted the play-by-play of

43:22

what happened in that one-night stand which it

43:24

was very bland. It was a one-night stand.

43:27

So, there's a very brief connection that was

43:29

had. He was definitely pulling information from me

43:31

and asking for more details and specifics. He

43:33

obviously was what some of the general questions

43:35

were. I'm sure it was very basic. Where

43:37

are you from? What do you like to

43:40

do? All those sorts of things. I remember

43:42

there were a few that he did ask

43:44

at one point that I was kind of

43:46

like, that's an odd hobby or that's

43:48

an interesting response. One of his second

43:51

languages was German he said. I didn't

43:53

think anything of it. I mean, he's

43:55

got his doctorate. He's had a lot

43:57

of schooling and he's been in the US Air Force.

44:00

To me, it wasn't a red flag.

44:02

But at one point, he said he

44:04

was a big history buff and he

44:06

collected memorabilia of the German Nazi era.

44:09

I didn't think it was anything specifically Nazi

44:11

related. But there was one question

44:13

that will continue to haunt me

44:15

for years later. He asked me

44:17

about a dating experience, the one-night

44:19

stand I had. And I

44:21

told him it was with a bartender that I

44:23

met at a restaurant. I was out celebrating my

44:25

birthday with my best friend and we hit it

44:28

off with the bartender at the restaurant we were

44:30

at. And we had a

44:32

one-night stand and that's it. But

44:34

he dug deeper. He

44:37

asked very specific details like what was

44:39

I wearing? He wanted the play-by-play of

44:41

what happened in that one-night stand, which

44:43

it was very bland. It was a

44:45

one-night stand. So there's a very brief

44:47

connection that was had. He was definitely

44:49

pulling information from me and asking for

44:52

more details and specifics. He obviously was

44:54

taking notes on what I was saying. At

44:56

the time, we were messaging on the Plenty

44:59

of Fish site and he had built up

45:01

enough trust with me that he started asking

45:03

for innocent pictures of like, well, send me

45:05

a picture of what you're doing right now.

45:08

But he wanted to do it over email. I don't know

45:10

why I didn't question it at the time. I

45:13

never gave him my phone number. I

45:15

did give him my email. The trust

45:17

was built. The sexual tension was built.

45:19

We never met in person. She would

45:22

tell me something like, oh, this guy, come on.

45:24

Too good to be true. But

45:26

I don't want to jump to

45:28

conclusions about people. I love

45:30

my sister and I want to support her. Amy

45:33

told me about him and described some stuff

45:35

about him, what he did. First

45:37

impressions just from the surface early on

45:40

seemed pretty outstanding, obviously. He was painted

45:42

that way. Early on, she was

45:44

pretty excited about him and I didn't know much

45:46

outside of that. She told

45:48

me a few things about him that kind of left

45:50

me questioning certain things. Now, obviously, lesson

45:53

in learning how to listen to your body

45:55

and yourself when these kind of things happen.

45:58

They hadn't met in person. That was... something

46:00

that seemed interesting to me. If I remember right,

46:02

she had tried to set up a meetup and it always

46:04

seemed to fall through or something like he couldn't. So that

46:06

was a little bit of a red flag to me. I

46:09

think she had mentioned something about

46:11

how he said he was German

46:13

descent and they had German

46:15

shepherd dogs. And I was like, that's fine. We

46:17

are also a German descent in our family. But

46:20

it was just sort of how he approached that

46:22

conversation with her. I didn't want to jump to

46:24

conclusions, but it got to me for some reason.

46:28

Okay. Right away, my antennas went up, but

46:30

you know, the mother daughter relationship, it can be

46:32

fragile sometimes. We have a great relationship. We always

46:34

have, but there's just times when you know that,

46:37

okay, how am I going to communicate this gently

46:39

to my daughter that I think this is too

46:41

good to be true. Being raised

46:44

with abuse and then being in our end

46:46

doing some psych nursing, things like that. You

46:49

do come out of that with

46:51

a sixth sense and you're aware

46:53

of the warning signs. I'm so grateful

46:55

that Amy came to tell us that

46:57

she had met this person online. We

47:00

were all there in our kitchen and

47:02

she was showing all of us his page.

47:04

We were talking about it and everything. She went

47:06

on about him. And I remember thinking,

47:08

okay, he's in his

47:10

early thirties. He has this degree, this master's,

47:12

this, this, and this. He's got a picture of

47:15

himself with a dog. And my husband is

47:17

over there saying, Oh, this is great. He sounds

47:19

great. I'm thinking I'm the only

47:21

one. That's thinking this doesn't sound right.

47:23

Something's off. And

47:25

that's the first time I realized something was wrong

47:27

with this picture. I said quietly to her, Amy

47:30

sounds too good to be true. And she was

47:32

all mom, he's older. And I want to be

47:34

very clear. I felt guilty for saying that, but

47:36

I knew I had to say, there was just

47:39

something in me that was relentless that

47:41

I recognized from my childhood. I just

47:43

felt like it just was too good to be true. And

47:46

unfortunately it was. We

47:48

had been talking for two, two and

47:50

a half weeks, even though it was

47:52

2016 in the dating app and dating

47:54

site world, that was like light years

47:57

ago and how people interacted. We started

47:59

exchanging. innocent photos progressively, he

48:01

asked for more personal and explicit

48:03

sort of photos. I didn't put

48:06

my face in them. He wanted

48:08

a photo of my boobs

48:10

or a photo of my butt or

48:13

of my legs and he sent

48:15

me photos as well. At one

48:17

point, he started asking for photos that seemed

48:19

odd, like why would he want like a

48:21

picture of my birth control or a

48:24

picture of my couch? This

48:26

is strange. I said, no, I'm

48:28

not comfortable sending you that. And when

48:30

I told him no, something in him

48:33

changed. He snapped. He

48:35

said, look at my profile on Plenty of Fish.

48:38

When I went to his profile, he

48:40

posted most of the explicit photos that

48:42

he had of me with a description

48:45

of who I was, first

48:47

name, last name, my email address, my

48:49

home address, and a ton of content

48:51

about the one night stand that

48:53

he asked for very detailed information

48:55

about. My content became

48:58

very racist. I was blown away. In

49:00

that moment, my heart sank and I had

49:02

this oh shit moment of I don't

49:05

know who the hell I've been talking to, but it

49:07

sure is not this guy, Eric. I

49:09

saw that and my heart sank. I

49:11

literally went blank. There was no tears.

49:13

There was no emotion. I immediately just

49:15

froze. It was complete freeze mode. I

49:17

did screenshot as much as I could

49:20

in the moment. Looking back on that,

49:22

thank God I did. I

49:24

asked him to take everything down. He said,

49:26

Oh, no, I am not. I have them

49:28

all saved every single one. Did you read

49:30

the captions? Pretty accurate. A

49:33

LOL read them for LOL. So

49:36

your cum guzzling white trash or

49:38

fuck buddy slave ass will send

49:40

Hugo and all of your other

49:42

beloved worthless douchebag pussyhound fuck buddy

49:44

slaves any picture. How many have

49:46

you sent a horror 500 1000

49:48

yet you won't send me one

49:51

lol? Well,

49:54

this is my response. Fuck

49:56

you lol. This is just the beginning

49:58

horror. You can count on. that winky

50:00

face. Oh, and Amy, thanks

50:02

so much for sharing your full name

50:05

and your cell number with me. Seriously, I could

50:07

have never gotten the rest of your

50:09

info without it. LOL winky face. Fuck

50:11

you. Fuck buddy slave with a ton

50:13

of exclamation marks. You're so dumb.

50:16

That's the message I got as if I

50:18

was just giving it to him and

50:20

he didn't pull it out of me through

50:22

his manipulations and the trust that he built.

50:24

You can't see this in the messages

50:26

that I was reading but the way the

50:29

writing is, some of it's capitalized. There's a

50:31

lot of asterisk. It's blocking out certain

50:33

letters of words that probably can't use on

50:35

that app. It looks

50:37

very cryptic. Not knowing

50:40

what to do, the first thing I did

50:42

was call my parents. Let me

50:44

tell you that is a call you never

50:46

want to have to make especially with parents

50:48

who expect a lot of you and support

50:51

you in the way that they have all of

50:53

your life to call them and tell them exactly

50:57

what just happened. My

50:59

parents, my sister included, they're my first call when

51:01

it's something happy, sad, frightening. So when this stuff's

51:03

going down, as much as I don't want to

51:05

be calling them, they're my first call because I

51:07

need to process it. I'm trying to figure out

51:10

and rationalize what's happening and make sure I'm dealing

51:12

with it in the right ways. It's

51:17

one of the hardest calls I ever had to make. I

51:20

remember it very well. We were in bed

51:22

at night, it was about 11 o'clock. We

51:24

were asleep. The phone rang and

51:26

it was Amy on the other end. She was in tears

51:29

and anytime your children call you in

51:31

tears, your first reactions to panic and

51:33

fear that there's something significantly wrong. She

51:35

shared with us in her terms she

51:38

had made a mistake and she had

51:40

exchanged communication with this person online and

51:42

that he had turned out to be

51:44

not what he had

51:46

presented himself as. She had never met

51:49

him in person. She had

51:51

only exchanged communications through electronic means. She

51:53

really didn't even know she was dealing

51:55

with, but he had turned and he

51:57

was making threats. I remember it vividly

51:59

because I loaded my

52:01

Glock 19, drove to her place

52:04

and set up in

52:06

case this person was going to try to

52:08

harm her or cause any other problems. I

52:10

spent the night at Amy's house. She

52:13

was definitely scared to death. And

52:15

that was the first of many nights I

52:17

spent at Amy's place. I

52:20

definitely remember when things turned

52:22

because I actually was

52:25

asleep the night that everything changed for

52:27

Amy with this experience. I

52:29

had my ringer on my phone turned off. I

52:31

had forgotten to turn it back on after work.

52:33

She had called me once things took a turn

52:35

and I didn't hear my phone so I didn't

52:37

wake up and answer. The next day I woke

52:39

up and that's when I found out about everything

52:41

that had happened the night before. My

52:43

phone had just sank. It had been a

52:45

whole debacle that night and the gravity

52:48

of it and the seriousness of it

52:50

was really palpable. It felt bad that

52:52

I was asleep for it. More

52:55

than anything it was just a really deep

52:57

concern for my sister. Next

53:00

time on Something Was Wrong. In

53:04

the back of my mind I start thinking is

53:06

it somebody who knows me and is

53:09

trying to taunt me. My

53:11

sister got some new neighbors at one

53:13

point and her train of thought was

53:15

that it was this person who was

53:17

stalking her. I realized

53:20

that I was so much in defense

53:22

mode when everything reignited and