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wondery. Your journey begins at the

1:21

University of Florida. What

1:23

came next is intended for mature

1:26

audiences only. Scientists

1:28

discuss topics that can be

1:30

triggering, such as emotional, physical

1:32

and sexual violence, animal abuse,

1:35

suicide, and murder. I

1:37

am not a therapist, nor am I a

1:39

doctor. If you're in

1:41

need of support, please visit

1:44

somethingwaswrong.com/resources for a list of

1:46

nonprofit organizations that can help.

1:49

Opinions expressed by my guests on the

1:52

show are their own and do not

1:54

necessarily represent the views of myself or

1:56

Broken Cycle Media. Resources

1:58

and source material are linked in the

2:00

episode notes. Thank you so

2:03

much for listening. As

2:28

we shared in part one of the

2:30

Something Was Wrong season 14 updates, season

2:33

14 of Something Was Wrong began

2:35

airing on October 20th, 2022 and the last

2:37

episode aired on January 3rd,

2:42

2023. The season

2:45

highlighted the narratives of Kalyn, Melissa,

2:47

and Sarah and their very toxic

2:49

abusive relationships with a man named

2:51

Jake, as well as the abuse

2:54

their children faced at his hands.

2:57

As the season progressed, it included

2:59

several accounts from other victims and

3:01

acquaintances of Jake's as well. Jake

3:04

continued to leverage his professional connections

3:06

in the media to add validity

3:09

to his dating presence and in

3:11

turn victimized over 40 women in

3:14

and around the Seattle area. On

3:17

December 13th, 2022, the guests of season 14 also participated

3:23

in a Something Was Wrong live event

3:25

with Tiffany on which they discussed the

3:27

impact of the season and answered some

3:30

listeners questions. One week

3:32

later, a petition was created to

3:34

call for Jake to face criminal

3:36

accountability. And despite the

3:38

fact that less than a year has

3:40

passed since its release, quite a lot

3:42

has happened since. The Broken

3:45

Cycle media team is so grateful

3:47

for Kalyn, Melissa, and Sarah's involvement,

3:49

as well as the rest of

3:51

the guests in season 14 and

3:53

the impact their sharing has made. We are

3:56

also grateful to host this conversation with

3:58

Kalyn and Melissa about all All that's

4:00

come next since season 14 has aired. One

4:09

of the amazing things that came

4:11

out of these women sharing their

4:13

stories beyond finding more survivors was

4:16

seeing the reaction to the petition

4:18

and how many signatures that we

4:20

got. 31,642 as of today, and

4:25

we started it on December 21st, 2022. I

4:29

just think that's fantastic from a

4:32

supporting the survivor's standpoint. I

4:34

just thought it was really

4:37

rewarding for survivors to see

4:39

that support. The

4:41

judge had said initially, yeah, he is

4:43

dangerous to you. That's why they gave

4:45

me a restraining order. But they

4:48

said that he was not a

4:50

danger to Emerson. It

4:52

is so backwards. These judges,

4:54

there should be a continuing

4:57

education for them around personality

4:59

disorders, abuse, domestic

5:02

violence. He has absolutely no

5:04

impulse control. That's something I've known for a

5:06

long time. So that's really scary

5:09

when you're sending your child with somebody

5:11

that has no impulse control. But

5:13

most family court judges don't have

5:15

the education or the training in

5:17

domestic violence. And the

5:19

court does not account for narcissistic

5:21

behavior. I think that

5:24

there's this misconception of parenting

5:26

plans and child support. People that

5:28

don't have children don't quite understand,

5:31

like, well, why are you still

5:33

letting him have visitation? Well, I

5:35

went back and tried really hard

5:37

multiple times to get him to just

5:40

have to have supervised visits because

5:42

I was scared. He only

5:44

had her for six hours at a time and

5:46

could exercise that four days out of the

5:49

month. But even still, he

5:51

would come like once a year

5:53

around that, but it was traumatizing

5:55

for Emerson, but I did

5:57

not have a choice because I would be held in...

6:00

content. Had I not

6:02

allowed the visit, I

6:04

could potentially get fined, lose

6:06

custody. All sorts of terrible

6:08

things could have happened. You

6:10

don't have the option to

6:12

just not cooperate. You either

6:14

cooperate or you get in

6:16

really big trouble and potentially

6:18

lose your children. In

6:20

my case, if he ever did

6:23

come, then we could kind of work

6:25

through it in therapy. It

6:27

was really hard. Her therapist, she

6:29

sent me a statement arguing no

6:31

visitation would be best for her,

6:34

which I was a little bit

6:36

surprised because I feel like the

6:38

courts will do anything to keep

6:40

the kid with the parent, whether

6:43

it's supervised or just regular visitation.

6:45

They very rarely will terminate

6:47

rights or terminate visitation.

6:50

In my situation, I went to

6:52

the judge. I was asking for

6:55

supervised visits. The judge looked

6:57

at me and said, he's not

6:59

coming anyway. I don't know why you're here. And

7:02

I said, yeah, but he can come. And

7:04

it's so traumatizing. I tried to explain that

7:06

I have complex PTSD and that it's so

7:08

hard every month. I'm

7:10

panicking because he has to tell

7:13

me by the 15th of each month

7:15

and every new month I'm stressed out

7:17

until the 15th because he could tell

7:19

me that he's coming and it's

7:21

scary. And Jake actually showed

7:23

up to that court hearing. But

7:26

probably because he showed up, the

7:28

judge threw it out. He just

7:30

dismissed it. And so it wasn't

7:33

until he hit Ivy that he

7:35

agreed to no contact, no visitation.

7:38

I went and filed right away

7:40

because he said he would agree to

7:42

whatever I wanted. Honestly, I

7:45

wrestled with it for so long. Like, Oh, did

7:47

I make the right decision? Because I

7:49

don't ever want her to hold

7:52

resentment for not allowing her to

7:54

have a relationship with her dad.

7:57

But the fact in this scenario is

7:59

her dad. is not a safe

8:01

person. And so I made

8:03

the decision he needed to be

8:06

out of our lives completely. I

8:08

think that that is the best decision I ever

8:11

made. It took the Instagram account

8:13

and going on the podcast to

8:16

really cement that for me. Yes,

8:18

that was the best decision I

8:20

ever made. And he is so

8:23

much more dangerous than I ever

8:26

imagined. I did call

8:28

and file a police report

8:30

for him raping me

8:32

before I left Seattle. Just

8:34

to be clear, even saying that is hard.

8:37

I have never considered myself

8:40

a rape survivor. And I

8:42

would much rather the Seattle Police

8:44

Department not spend time on me

8:46

per se. I just

8:48

wanted it in there, documented in

8:50

case anybody else comes forward so

8:52

that there is a history

8:55

of it. But I told

8:57

them at that time, I don't want

8:59

anything to be done. I just want

9:01

this recorded so that you

9:03

have something on file for him with

9:06

sexual abuse. I

9:08

was given an advocate. She basically

9:10

was like, I don't understand why

9:12

you weren't provided an advocate when

9:14

you first went to court. There's

9:16

clearly domestic violence, financial

9:18

abuse, sexual abuse. I

9:21

shouldn't have had to go to court

9:23

without an advocate. I definitely

9:25

wish I had one at the time.

9:28

I had a lawyer, so I felt a little

9:30

bit safer. But at the same

9:32

time, he would still do all

9:35

sorts of terrible things

9:37

that I feel like should have

9:39

mattered to the court when it

9:42

came to custody. We definitely

9:44

talked about it in the live event,

9:46

but I think that family

9:48

court cares more about parental

9:50

rights over child safety and welfare.

9:53

That's a hard thing to

9:56

hear when you're a parent and

9:58

you're so worried about. this

10:00

person getting visitation with

10:02

a young child, Jake

10:05

took me back to court to lower

10:07

the child support. So as it stands

10:09

right now, we haven't been back to

10:11

court since he signed everything over after

10:14

the first child support order. So that

10:16

order went through when she was three,

10:18

she will be 13 next month. The

10:22

amount was set at 650. There

10:25

were several years he just paid next

10:27

to nothing. Going into court, he

10:29

was behind $23,000. When

10:33

he filed to lower his child

10:36

support, he has to provide

10:38

me six months of bank statements. Going

10:41

through it, I don't have a full six months, but

10:43

they don't even care. I feel like

10:45

that should matter. It didn't, but

10:48

there were so many

10:50

Venmo deposits into

10:52

his bank account that were like $500, $600 at a time.

10:57

So he has money in these other

10:59

accounts that he's putting into his bank

11:02

account when he needs money, but he

11:04

isn't providing those bank accounts to the

11:06

courts to show what the balance is

11:08

in his PayPal or his Venmo or

11:10

in his cash app. People

11:12

can use those accounts

11:15

to stockpile money that they

11:17

don't have to provide proof

11:19

of. I know that

11:21

he still is getting money from Patreon

11:23

users. It's not a lot. He

11:27

says now he doesn't make any

11:29

money from photography, but I know

11:31

that he's been paid in PayPal

11:33

and in Venmo or in cash

11:36

prior. So this is what

11:38

I tried to explain to the judge. He's

11:40

making all these deposits and he said, okay,

11:42

show me where he's making the deposits. So

11:44

I showed him the first one that comes

11:47

up in his financial documents. And

11:50

it's a $500 Venmo from

11:52

himself to his bank account.

11:55

He said, oh, well that is from

11:57

Omari paying me out. It was a

11:59

one time. thing. And then

12:01

the judge just moved on. But in

12:03

court proceedings, judges definitely don't like

12:05

it when you point things out.

12:08

So it's one of those things where you

12:10

have to tread lightly. The prosecutor

12:13

for the state, she came

12:15

out with a really strong

12:17

opening argument that I

12:19

really thought that they were gonna

12:21

not lower my child's support and

12:24

or impute him at the gross

12:26

median because there is financial

12:28

abuse. And she said that there is

12:30

a history of it. So I naively

12:32

assumed they will take this into consideration.

12:35

This is where he's like, I

12:37

wear the same brand of clothing and shoes

12:39

quite literally for everything, except

12:41

for socks and underwear. These are the

12:43

purchases you will see from North Face

12:45

Outlet. I also get outdoor gear here

12:48

as well and camping needs. I'm

12:50

outdoors a lot. I walk about seven

12:52

to eight miles per day and have

12:55

found over the years that the shoes

12:57

from this brand are the most comfortable

12:59

for my feet, especially since they're a

13:02

large size and not commonly found. My

13:05

reason behind purchasing these from this

13:07

brand is their products are made

13:09

from recycled clothing and they

13:11

fit more of my athletic

13:14

and explorative nature. I can't

13:17

comfortably do my job, my

13:19

walking and my hiking in jeans.

13:22

In doing so, I helped

13:24

do a small part to

13:26

be a conservationist towards our

13:28

planet. Are you joking

13:30

me? You're telling me that you

13:32

had to spend $500 a month

13:34

at North Face because you

13:37

have to buy clothes from there.

13:39

However, when it comes to my

13:41

child, there were times before I

13:43

was married to my husband and I

13:46

was a single mom that I could

13:48

barely feed us. Here, he's like,

13:50

this is why I can spend

13:52

$500 a month. I'm saving

13:54

the planet. That's

13:57

his justification for spending $500. month

14:00

after month at North Base because

14:02

he's helping the planet or

14:05

he can't take better jobs because

14:07

it interferes with his exercise routine.

14:10

Before we went to court he

14:12

was working with the contempt team

14:15

where he needed to pay X

14:17

amount of dollars each month for

14:19

all the kids. It was

14:21

just like one lump sum of child support so

14:23

that he didn't go to jail. That was

14:25

$700 and that wasn't

14:27

something that we all agreed on.

14:30

It was something that they agreed

14:32

on with him without us. This

14:34

is after he posted online, I've made more

14:37

this year than I've ever made and it's

14:39

like okay then why aren't they making you

14:41

pay your full amount in child support? So

14:44

when we went back to court for

14:46

him to lower my child support, the

14:49

prosecutor, she did come at him pretty

14:51

hard. It felt good to

14:53

have all this in

14:55

public record what his history

14:57

is. She said that

14:59

he's been working with the child

15:01

support contempt team, that he's been

15:03

making regular payments with them, but

15:06

when she reviewed our whole history

15:08

that his payments were very infrequent

15:11

and he rarely paid the full

15:13

amount. She brought up that the

15:16

approximate debt for just my case

15:18

was $23,000. She brought up how

15:20

difficult it is

15:23

to assess his income because he

15:25

does freelance work and jumps from

15:27

project to project. He never

15:30

sticks with the same thing for a long

15:32

term. He's had a photography business,

15:34

a marketing and production

15:36

business. He sells things on Craigslist

15:38

and he was a hairstylist and

15:41

at that time he was choosing not to pursue

15:44

that. She said that he

15:46

appears to prefer jobs where it's

15:48

garnishment is a challenge or

15:51

completely unavailable. The

15:53

prosecutor said we do have some

15:55

history in this case of financial

15:57

abuse and manipulation that should be taken.

16:00

into consideration. She also

16:02

said that there is a history

16:04

of him living off one girlfriend

16:06

after another after another and has

16:08

been extremely selective in the work

16:10

that he does. All of

16:13

these things the state currently

16:15

considers to be a luxury.

16:18

In this case the state's position

16:20

is when you are legally responsible

16:22

for supporting a child your first

16:25

obligation is to get steady money in

16:27

the door. It really is

16:29

a luxury that few people can afford

16:31

to make sure that their job fits

16:34

all of their needs making sure that

16:36

they are happy and that they're being

16:38

creatively stimulated. The father is

16:40

creating a pattern of not

16:42

entirely invading child support but

16:45

evading the full payment of

16:47

child support. After her

16:49

opening argument she

16:51

did say she was hoping

16:54

this would create special circumstances

16:57

so that even if they went with the lower

16:59

amount which was 421 so

17:01

from 650 to 421

17:03

that he would have to pay an

17:05

additional amount to go to the

17:08

back amount because it was so

17:10

large. So we

17:12

go through the whole court proceeding it's quite

17:14

a while we both have our

17:17

cameras on so we can see each other that

17:19

was uncomfortable because

17:22

I obviously don't want him to see

17:24

me. He basically blamed

17:26

Melissa and I for ruining

17:28

his life. He did

17:30

bring up that he lives with

17:32

his girlfriend and their son. With

17:35

that said I worry that son is potentially

17:38

in danger of his temper.

17:41

In the final order the

17:43

official judgment is they

17:46

lowered it to 421 from 650 but

17:49

he has to pay an additional 150 each

17:51

month that goes toward the back amount. I

17:56

think the prosecutor wasn't fully aware

17:58

that this is is not possible

18:00

for it to go to me alone.

18:03

So I see $77 of

18:05

it and the rest of it goes to Melissa

18:08

and the other mom. The

18:10

court took judicial notice of the

18:12

fact that the father owes excessive

18:14

$23,000 in

18:17

back child support in this case alone.

18:19

Therefore, the transfer payment will be a total

18:22

of 571 each

18:24

month until further ordered by the court,

18:26

which means he now has to pay

18:28

$850 each month instead

18:32

of the 700 that he was being told

18:34

he had to pay. I

18:36

was gonna ask, does he have to pay off the

18:38

$23,000 until

18:40

she is 18 forever? It's

18:43

actually forever. He

18:46

has to pay because he agreed

18:48

to waive. Normally, it

18:50

would be until they graduate from

18:52

high school. But in order for

18:54

him to get his passport, he

18:56

said, I'll pay until whenever, so

18:59

long as I can get my passport. That

19:01

actually really works in our favor because

19:04

he does owe me so much money that he's

19:06

gonna be paying it probably for the rest of

19:08

his life. He has to or he'll

19:10

go to jail. But each state

19:13

is different. It's been

19:15

with contempt of court already for

19:17

the last three years or something.

19:20

It's been longer than that, because it was before 2020. With

19:23

the prosecutor's office, right? Yeah.

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liquidiv.com. Jake

22:59

preemptively discredited us so

23:02

that he would be the victim so that when something

23:05

did happen, then nobody believed us.

23:08

One of the unfortunate truths is

23:10

abusers often hide pretending to be

23:12

the victim. I think that's one

23:14

of the things that kept Kalen and I so

23:16

silent for so many years. He

23:18

preemptively had made himself out to be

23:21

the victim. They all had

23:23

the narratives attached to us. Kalen

23:25

was the bitter crazy ex. I

23:27

was the obsessed stalker. Mimi

23:29

was the abuser. He

23:32

had these narratives to who we were

23:34

and he preemptively convinced everyone

23:36

that he was a victim of us

23:39

so that if we did go to

23:41

them and tell them the truth, they

23:43

think we're the abuser and they think

23:45

he's a victim. I think

23:48

in a way that it's a hard conversation

23:50

to have because those people believed that he

23:52

was a victim and they didn't question him.

23:55

I don't know the right way to have

23:57

that conversation but the truth is that we're the

23:59

same. is that sometimes abusers do

24:02

hide as victims and it's another

24:04

way that they further victimize their

24:06

true victims. I think that

24:08

would be a good leeway into the MXPX

24:10

stuff because it's exactly what Jake did. He

24:13

played himself to be the victim

24:15

to so many different people that

24:18

we stopped even trying to like

24:20

speak out. In his court

24:22

statement with Kalen's child support stuff, he

24:25

actually talked about how we've had

24:27

this decade-long campaign against him. I

24:30

kind of laughed at that because

24:32

Kalen and I for the most

24:34

part, we never spoke out publicly

24:36

against him. The Instagram was the

24:38

first time that we publicly shared

24:40

our stories. We weren't sharing

24:42

that online. We weren't running around telling people.

24:45

The last person that we tried to

24:48

warn was Mimi. The

24:50

only other person that we tried

24:53

to warn was Mike Herrera from

24:55

MXPX. Kalen's boyfriend had connection to

24:57

him. We were concerned because Jake

25:00

had already assaulted Ivy at that

25:02

point and Mike was bringing Jake

25:04

in to stay at his house

25:07

around his little tiny kids. We thought,

25:09

oh man, if that was me, I

25:11

would want someone to tell me that

25:13

this person isn't safe. It

25:15

was absolutely ridiculous, the response. The

25:18

response was that they already knew about

25:20

it ahead of time. And so

25:23

this was nothing new. They were kind of

25:25

expecting to hear from us and

25:27

that he had been blackmailed

25:29

by us into pleading

25:32

guilty. The most shocking

25:34

part to me was within the first

25:36

few sentences, I recall it saying something

25:38

to the tune of, we've been expecting

25:40

this message. I just

25:42

thought, wow, that's your opener?

25:44

It was so embittered. This

25:47

was his manager at the time that responded

25:49

right, not him himself, just to be clear.

25:52

They were talking to the manager and then

25:54

I spoke with somebody else in the band

25:56

and they said, here's what

25:59

happened. He said something

26:01

prior. He said that

26:03

you guys blackmailed him into

26:05

pleading guilty. And he

26:07

feared for his life. He framed

26:09

it as he didn't

26:11

even commit the crime, that one of us

26:13

actually hit her and we framed him. And

26:17

I was like, that's the craziest shit

26:19

I've ever heard. And I sent them

26:21

all of the poor paperwork. He

26:23

said he was going to show the rest of them. But

26:26

Jake still was around. My

26:29

career has never ever come forward

26:31

and said anything about Jake ever.

26:34

Or responded to my request for comment,

26:36

to be clear. I did reach out to him and he

26:38

did not respond. But I

26:40

think it shows what he would do. Preemptively

26:44

discredit us or say

26:46

that I was crazy or I'm just mad because

26:48

he cheated on me and got somebody else pregnant.

26:51

No, I'm concerned that you're going to

26:53

do what you did to me to

26:55

somebody else. Or I'm concerned

26:57

that you're going to hurt another child. I

27:00

just think it's one of those

27:02

things where it keeps the actual

27:04

person that's been abused or the

27:06

victim quiet because they learn really

27:08

quick that if they say something,

27:10

they're not going to be believed

27:12

because that person has already come

27:14

up with a story ahead of

27:16

time. One tactic that

27:18

I recently learned about that a lot of

27:20

narcissists, especially coercive narcissists or

27:23

abusers use is called DARVO

27:25

and it means Deny,

27:27

Attack, Reverse, Victim, and

27:29

Offender. Jake loves this. Basically

27:33

it's a consistent reaction and manipulation

27:35

tactic used by perpetrators of abuse

27:37

or other types of wrongdoing. It

27:40

works by shifting the focus away

27:42

from the original issue and attacking

27:44

the actual victim. It attempts to

27:46

switch the roles of the victim

27:49

and the perpetrator to allow the

27:51

actual offender to receive sympathy and

27:53

compassion publicly or privately as well

27:56

as to avoid consequences for their

27:58

actions. Grubbers

28:00

victim and defender. I

28:03

can't tell you the amount of time that

28:05

I've heard something like that and I was

28:07

like holy shit That's what he did. They.

28:09

Are like cookie cutter the each

28:11

other narcissist. But. That's one

28:13

of those names. Were even just

28:16

reading that. It's so I have

28:18

a name and as a reminder

28:20

that. I saw learning so much

28:22

and I feel like I know a

28:24

lot about this subject. the banner, Your

28:27

family Like this and I'm like of

28:29

course. While. We're on the

28:31

topic. I saw this tic toc that

28:33

was shared on Instagram and it's by

28:36

a therapist called your Underscore Pocket Underscore

28:38

Therapist and she's talking about why and

28:40

I think this can be applicable here.

28:42

One of the reasons that it's hard

28:44

to walk away from emotionally unavailable people

28:46

is that you get this a dope

28:48

or mean response that really on even

28:51

The example she gives is somebody pulling

28:53

a slot machine. you sit there and

28:55

you pull it, you pull it, me

28:57

pull it and then when you finally

28:59

when you get. This huge spike of

29:02

dopa Me and and that is

29:04

more physically addicted to your body

29:06

then somebody giving you consistent love.

29:08

Flash Still the mean over a

29:10

steady period of time with secure

29:12

attachment. That's. What makes it

29:14

so difficult? often? Times for people

29:17

to. Break out of the cycles

29:19

with an emotionally unavailable or abusive

29:21

person. Not only just all the

29:23

manipulation tactics, all the abuse tactics

29:25

that were discussing here. But

29:28

also those physical manifestations.

29:30

The literal dopamine. Release

29:32

that you get when that person tax you

29:34

are when they call you the way they

29:37

make you feel in. Between. Those moments

29:39

where their gas lighting you are ignoring

29:41

you physically has effects on your body.

29:43

Were always learning about that science

29:46

to. The and or what

29:48

Tiffany was saying my therapist and told

29:50

me it's very similar to what the

29:52

brain go through like with a gambling

29:54

addiction, people in abusive relationships. It's almost

29:56

like the same type of addiction. They.

29:58

Would start. Teaching. Me is

30:01

my is to like press a button to get

30:03

a piece of food and when they first started

30:05

it they get one piece of food for every

30:07

time they would press this button with their nose.

30:09

Then overtime they would make it so it

30:11

did it only every other time and then

30:14

like every five times and then twenty times.

30:16

They did this over and over again and

30:18

hell they were literally up to where this

30:20

mouse would have to press this button like

30:23

hundreds of times to get one piece of

30:25

food and they were hurting themselves. Pressing the

30:27

button for that one pay out of that

30:29

one piece. Of food. Because they were

30:31

now addicted to this process, it did

30:34

something to their brains were now it's

30:36

an addiction. The Pale is such a

30:38

high that it's worth it for them

30:40

to hurt themselves over and over and

30:42

over again for that one pay out

30:44

of that one small piece of food.

30:47

Also, what you're describing that's

30:49

behavior modification. In essence, what

30:52

they're doing is they're grooming as to

30:54

say and that narcissistic relationship And not

30:56

only is it an addiction if you're

30:58

looking at a one way but also

31:00

it's almost like they're modifying and in

31:02

draining snap behavior. There's all

31:04

these different ways that abuse and

31:06

different attachment sales can really influence

31:08

the way it impacts victims and

31:10

the reasons why: the average time

31:12

of leaving his seven times before

31:15

someone gets out of an abusive

31:17

relationship If they're lucky, Absolutely.

31:19

But I think that's what's so

31:21

great about this time. Fast me

31:23

learn so much. I know I

31:25

learned. So. Much from what Melissa's

31:27

there have been of solar it.

31:29

But think about all the people

31:32

that are and situations like I

31:34

was then that are seeing a

31:36

therapist and that therapist doesn't know

31:38

anything about narcissist. And

31:40

don't think that there's

31:42

very many it therapist

31:45

unfortunately that understanding this

31:47

behavior. Melissa. Went to

31:49

therapy and she was able to learn all

31:51

the is saying that on our says and

31:53

gas lighting. But. i went

31:55

to therapy at the same time and

31:57

my therapist knew nothing about that I

32:01

think in general we understand the

32:03

terms, but do we always

32:05

know what to look for or do

32:07

we always know why we are doing

32:09

certain things? The education pieces,

32:11

we're still learning so much. I'm

32:15

really lucky because I haven't had any

32:17

contact with him. It's almost

32:19

seven years now. The last

32:21

contact indirectly that I had was right

32:24

before that live event, which

32:26

I don't know why the live event

32:28

was such a thorn in his side.

32:30

He didn't seem to have a problem

32:32

with the actual podcast, but us going

32:34

on that live was too much for

32:36

him. So that was

32:38

the last actual interaction, court-wise, that

32:40

I've had with him. I

32:43

did want to talk about that we have

32:45

had more people reach out to us since

32:48

the podcast aired. We've

32:51

had other women come forward. We've had

32:53

some of his former coworkers. I even

32:55

had a couple of his friends from

32:57

high school reach out to me. More

33:00

of those stories of I had a

33:02

bad experience with him and ended our

33:04

friendship and never really thought about it

33:06

again. It really speaks to

33:08

the type of person that he is, that

33:11

he's been pulling stuff like this and just

33:13

screwing people over for so many decades. One

33:16

of the women that had contacted us,

33:18

she had an ongoing on and off

33:20

casual relationship that went on for over

33:22

a decade through all of this. So

33:25

we kind of know that there's still

33:27

probably so many women out there that

33:30

we probably will never even know about.

33:32

I can't even imagine the scope of

33:35

how far his reach was, but I'm

33:37

just thankful that the information

33:39

is out there now. We don't have to

33:41

continue to tell our stories over and over

33:43

again. It's out there. He can't

33:45

run from it. He can't hide from it. You

33:48

Google him, all of this comes up. The

33:51

change petition comes up. The stranger

33:53

article comes up. All of it

33:55

comes up. There's nothing that he can do

33:57

that he can hide from that. and

34:00

change his name from Jake to Jacob,

34:02

it still comes up. So he can't

34:04

lie about all of this stuff the

34:06

way that he did before. I

34:08

think on some level, he's always going to

34:10

be manipulating people and we can't obviously stop

34:13

all of that, but we

34:15

were able to put the truth

34:17

out there. At the very

34:19

least, anybody that is Googling

34:21

him can now make an informed

34:23

decision about who he is. I

34:27

noticed a major difference in myself when

34:29

I was in Seattle West. I

34:31

went in August with my husband.

34:34

I had been a couple of times prior

34:36

to that after I moved, but this

34:38

was the first time I'd been

34:41

back and felt safe. I

34:43

think part of that is having my husband

34:45

with me, but I do think that I

34:48

wasn't as anxious. I wasn't looking over my

34:50

shoulder. I wasn't like, oh my God, what

34:52

if I see him or is he gonna

34:54

track me down? I just

34:56

didn't feel scared anymore and I think

34:58

it came from sharing my story. It

35:01

didn't have as much of a hold

35:03

on me anymore. This

35:05

season on a personal note, working

35:07

on it with the survivors and the

35:09

relationship that I got to build with

35:12

them, the trust we were able to

35:14

build and the care that they brought

35:16

was one of the joys of

35:18

my lifetime from a creator standpoint.

35:20

They were like the dream to

35:22

work with both professionally and personally.

35:25

You want everybody to get it

35:27

and support them the way that I

35:29

feel that they deserve to be supported and

35:31

it was hard to see them grappling with

35:34

those things, but they're

35:36

so strong. I feel

35:38

like their strength and their ability

35:41

to take people's public opinions

35:43

in stride and continue to know who

35:45

they were and stay centered in who

35:47

they are was extremely inspiring

35:50

to me and helped

35:52

contribute to me having the nerve to

35:54

share my own story on my season

35:56

later. So you're not only

35:58

strong for what you survive. and

36:00

brave for being able to tell it. It

36:03

takes a very strong brave person

36:05

and a lot of people were

36:07

moved and inspired by that. I

36:10

don't think you'll ever even be capable to

36:12

know the full extent of the

36:14

positive impact that you have made. I

36:16

just want to say that is one of the joys

36:19

of my life working together with you guys

36:21

on this season. The best

36:23

part of all of this

36:25

is that my daughter has

36:28

aunties in all of you and

36:30

in Sarah that she just has more

36:32

people that love her. And with

36:34

her background, with Jake, I feel

36:36

like the more people that are

36:38

in her life loving on her,

36:40

the better. I'm incredibly

36:42

proud of her. She just started

36:45

seventh grade and is volunteering at

36:47

the library, is doing ASB and

36:50

is in all honors classes, has

36:52

straight As and she's just crushing

36:54

it. She's empathetic and

36:56

it's a testament to all the people that

36:59

are around her that have helped raise her

37:01

that that has overshadowed any

37:03

type of nature that

37:05

might come through. No, she's

37:08

fantastic. She is

37:10

an incredible little human being. Kaylin

37:12

and Melissa, you're both just incredible

37:14

parents and I get to not

37:16

only see you but your children

37:18

and the incredible mothers and parents

37:20

you are, you have such

37:22

a fantastic community and I know I've said

37:24

this a million times, but I just love

37:27

the way that you keep them in

37:29

each other's lives and really foster

37:31

that relationship. That human

37:33

connection and support is so

37:36

important and has far reaching positive

37:38

effects, not only to them, but

37:40

I think the world and

37:42

just other people who also get to see it

37:44

and how beautiful it is. Yeah, I'm

37:47

really thankful for the whole community

37:49

that our girls have. It's

37:51

a hard situation for them to grow

37:53

up in. They're going to live within

37:55

this forever, but I feel like the

37:57

positive so far outweighs any negative that

37:59

is come from it. The relationship

38:01

that Emerson and Ivy have

38:03

is so wholesome

38:05

and healthy. They love

38:08

each other so much and I'm just so

38:10

thankful to Kalyn that we can continue to

38:12

foster that and help it grow. I can't

38:14

say enough positive about the community

38:16

that we've created, especially for the

38:18

girls. That's so powerful.

38:21

And I also think that speaks to

38:23

what you did for the other people

38:25

that were messaging you. In your sharing,

38:27

not only did you bring awareness to

38:29

your friends and family and they might

38:32

navigate other relationships differently with more awareness,

38:34

but you also gave that gift to

38:36

other people. Not everybody can

38:38

share their experiences on a podcast.

38:40

Got themselves, lay all this out

38:42

there. Those people messaging you, that

38:44

was their liberation in sharing. Look

38:46

how much freedom you've caused in

38:49

that. Thank you guys

38:51

again so much for being willing to do

38:53

this and thank you for being in my

38:55

life. One of the greatest

38:57

things about being able to share my

38:59

own story after doing the season with

39:02

y'all was being able to receive y'all's

39:04

love and support, whether it be seeing

39:06

you guys in person and you sharing a

39:08

kind word or sending me a text message

39:10

or Sarah, she couldn't be with us today

39:12

due to our busy work schedule. Shout out

39:14

to Sarah. She'd send me a

39:17

text just checking on me throughout the

39:19

season. It means an incredible

39:21

amount to me and I

39:23

know Amy's gotten to get together in

39:25

person and y'all are now friends as

39:27

well. And it's a really, really beautiful

39:30

perk of a very

39:32

shitty traumatic situation. I

39:34

just feel incredibly blessed to

39:36

have y'all in my life, honored

39:39

still to this day that you trusted me

39:41

to do this with you. I'm

39:43

going to get emotional, but I recently saw

39:46

those street interviews that you see on Instagram

39:48

and it was just street interviewer asking this

39:50

random dude, what's the weirdest thing

39:52

that happened to you? And it was this young

39:54

kid and he had had a traumatic brain injury

39:57

of some kind and he was in a coma.

39:59

He literally died. for several minutes and came back

40:01

to life and he's like 26 years old and this

40:04

guy's like wow totally caught off guard and

40:06

he's like can you explain to people who

40:08

have never experienced it what happened to you when

40:10

you died he was like there

40:12

was the warm light but I saw

40:15

this video presentation of every happy moment

40:17

that flashed before my eyes in my

40:19

life I didn't think about anything negative

40:22

or any regrets I just saw all

40:24

the people who made me

40:26

feel the best and the warmest the

40:28

highlights my life and the best part

40:31

and you guys are a part of that I

40:33

truly mean that in the most genuine way I just

40:36

think what you have done not only

40:38

for me but the universe is very

40:41

significant there's not enough thank yous

40:43

in the world I think

40:45

that we all feel the same really

40:47

grateful that we were able to accomplish

40:49

what we set out for and we

40:52

couldn't have done that without you it's

40:54

a privilege you guys are

40:57

amazing people and it's just wild

40:59

that something so shitty can

41:01

bring also so much joy too

41:03

and it's just a surprising benefit

41:06

of this process absolutely

41:08

and I want to say thank you

41:10

ladies for trusting Tiffany so deeply that

41:12

you would trust me to then open

41:14

this wound again you are

41:17

deeply appreciated I've loved getting to know

41:19

both of you and the kids and

41:21

the dogs thank you for

41:23

having us on and giving us an

41:26

opportunity to further educate and talk about

41:28

the things that are important to us

41:30

we're both just so grateful for being

41:32

given a platform that we could have

41:34

shared and just hoping that that could

41:36

reach anybody that it needed to thank

41:39

you to both of you for

41:43

more something was wrong updates and

41:46

other impactful survivor interviews please head

41:48

to what came next wherever you

41:50

listen to podcasts what

41:54

came next is a broken cycle

41:57

media production co-produced by Amy B.

41:59

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42:10

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42:12

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42:14

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