0:00

Hey Sound Opinions listeners, if you

0:02

support us on Patreon, you

0:04

get to listen to our podcast ad-free

0:07

on Patreon.

0:08

You're

0:28

listening to Sound Opinions and this week we're

0:30

talking about South African music with

0:33

author and journalist Lior Phillips. I'm

0:35

Jim DeRogeyes and I'm Greg Koch. We're

0:38

talking about the formative music of the past

0:40

and present of South Africa. Let's

0:42

jump in. Throughout

0:44

the years, you know Greg, we've done a couple

0:46

of these world tour episodes

0:48

when we've talked about music from a particular

0:51

country that listeners here

0:53

may not have been very familiar with. This

0:55

week we're diving deep into the popular music

0:57

of South Africa that we want to mention

1:00

here. This is not all the music of South

1:02

Africa. It's just a very good place to

1:04

start. What a rich

1:06

tradition. Absolutely right Jim. We've

1:09

got a great guide to take us on the tour today,

1:11

South African journalist and author

1:14

of the 33 and a third book, South

1:16

African Popular Music, Lior

1:18

Phillips. Lior, welcome to Sound Opinions.

1:21

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

1:23

It's so lovely to meet both of you. Well

1:25

and congrats on this book. Talk about ambitious.

1:30

South African Popular Music. You'd think

1:32

it should be 18, 24 inches thick and a doorstop, but it's not.

1:38

You tackled this vast topic, Lior,

1:40

in a very colorful and engaging

1:43

way, which is to say by zooming

1:45

in on key artists along

1:47

the way, giving us these lovely vignettes

1:50

of wonderful songs and incredible artists.

1:53

It's an impossible, extraordinary

1:55

task to even think

1:58

of starting from the...

1:59

40s and ending up till now

2:02

because now is still happening in

2:04

all its glory. And so

2:07

that's why the book kind of went from

2:09

the title pop music

2:11

to popular music. It originally

2:14

was proposed as just talking about South

2:16

African pop. And the more I got

2:18

into it, the more stories that I researched

2:21

was like that bug, I couldn't stop

2:23

researching and my editors

2:25

let me run with it. So that's

2:28

essentially what happened and how I

2:29

landed up here. And

2:32

I definitely mourn the loss of

2:34

many of the artists that I had to leave off

2:37

and hope that I can attribute

2:39

and celebrate them in the future somehow.

2:41

Well, it's a great overview for somebody. A

2:43

lot of people may know cursory artists,

2:46

you know, from the South African

2:48

musical scene, you really dive

2:50

a little bit, quite a bit deeper than that and give

2:52

us a really nice overview of the last century,

2:55

really, of that music. And,

2:57

you know, your accent, your lovely accent, you're

3:00

from Cape Town originally. Is that right?

3:02

Yes, I'm from Cape Town,

3:04

South Africa, originally born and bred.

3:07

So you grew up with this music, Lior?

3:09

I did. It was kind of impossible

3:11

not to. It was, I think, only

3:14

in the late 90s, early

3:16

2000s, that there was a lot of shift into

3:19

radio play, skewing

3:22

more towards local. But even

3:24

just walking into kind of our

3:27

local 7-Eleven style

3:29

store, you'd hear Bongo

3:32

Muffin, you'd hear everything

3:35

that I speak about in the book. You just hear

3:37

it playing because that's what people

3:39

wanted to listen to. You'd

3:42

hear it in the taxis driving by. You'd

3:44

hear it played at somebody's house.

3:47

It was such celebratory and yet

3:50

a deeply rooted political

3:52

music that you couldn't get

3:54

away from it.

3:55

And both black and white

3:57

audiences embraced the music.

3:59

the word embrace. I certainly think that there

4:02

was a lot of interest, but we certainly

4:04

are here definitely lent to it because

4:07

think about it this way. There's people

4:09

singing in Zulu cause

4:12

they're singing in many different languages.

4:14

There's 11 different languages in South Africa.

4:17

You make the point that there's

4:19

so many different languages that one of

4:21

the only things that united these

4:23

diverse peoples was music.

4:25

Exactly. And that sounds as

4:28

cliche as it comes, but music

4:31

as a powerful tool in unification

4:33

in a country that has been seen as

4:36

this singular monolith is

4:39

extraordinary. So if you think about it,

4:41

I wanted to, I wanted to really

4:43

make sure that the reader understood that music

4:46

is about identity as much

4:48

as it is about, you

4:50

know, community. And I

4:52

think that people just listening, you can't

4:55

escape another language. You're

4:57

not going to turn your head at it

5:00

and your heart at it because music

5:03

of another language, it's got to say

5:05

something as rich as our very

5:08

limited English. And

5:10

I think that I learned that at a very young age

5:13

and I didn't have Google and things, you know, this

5:15

was like the late eighties. I didn't have Google

5:17

to look at apps. So you just asked

5:20

who you knew or you just relied

5:22

on melody to move your

5:24

body and move you along. And luckily

5:27

African music is steeped

5:29

in that. So

5:30

it makes it easier. Well,

5:32

it's extraordinary to give us this overview.

5:35

And, you know, your book begins in a place

5:37

that I think is totally appropriate with

5:40

Solomon Linda. That song

5:42

spans

5:44

a century, really. I mean, it's had a

5:46

lifespan that has just gone on

5:48

and on. And in the process

5:50

of writing that chapter, you get

5:52

into some serious issues of appropriation

5:55

and, you know, how cultures have taken

5:57

South African music, other cultures,

5:59

appropriated the music but built on this

6:02

foundation. So take us there,

6:04

take us to Solomon Linda in 1939.

6:08

Solomon Linda's Evening Birds, the

6:10

origin of the song's name of

6:13

Mabube became an entire genre.

6:16

And I think that's first and foremost, the

6:18

most incredibly astonishing

6:21

thing because I don't know what another example

6:23

of that is. You know, the entire

6:25

genre of music is now named after that one

6:28

song. And you've got these multi-part

6:31

male vocal complex harmonies

6:35

and this beautiful, I was just listening

6:37

to it actually again this

6:38

morning, this unified rhythm. Then

6:40

it's got this soaring solo that makes

6:42

you feel like you are in that room. That's

6:45

what this genre stands for.

6:47

Vibhulam, Vibhulam,

6:49

Vibhulam, Vibhulam, Vibhulam, Vibhulam,

6:59

Vibhulam, Vibhulam, Vibhulam,

7:01

Vibhulam, Vibhulam,

7:03

Vibhulam, Vibhulam, Vibhulam, Vibhulam,

7:06

Vibhulam. There's

7:08

so many other songs that could be a good example

7:11

of this genre. But I thought if you're speaking

7:13

about popular music, if you're speaking

7:15

about a history within a country, this

7:18

is a great way to start. It means

7:21

lion in Zulu. You're

7:23

getting that animalistic rawness

7:26

of what music is at the core. And

7:29

it's really just a song about, as

7:31

far as my research goes, calling

7:33

out a lion during a hunt, which

7:36

is very typified in what if you

7:38

both had to close your eyes or any listener

7:40

listening

7:40

had to close their eyes and think of Africa.

7:43

You think of political

7:46

poverty. You think of this

7:49

darkness because of colonialism,

7:51

and you think of safari. And

7:53

this takes, it flips that

7:55

on its head because now you're in it.

7:58

You're not just the...

7:59

viewer and

8:02

the spectator you are part

8:04

of the story which is what the genre

8:07

really stands for.

8:07

Well and of course Western

8:10

audiences would come to know it as the lion

8:12

sleeps tonight or whim

8:14

away. How did

8:16

that song cross the oceans,

8:19

cross cultures and become a

8:21

Western hit while completely

8:23

erasing the South African roots?

8:26

I mean that you build on

8:28

that extraordinary reporting Rolling Stone did

8:30

about two decades ago. That's one of those pieces

8:32

that strikes me Greg. It was

8:35

brilliant brilliant reportage on the

8:37

history of that

8:37

song and and Leor adds to

8:39

it fleshes it out and it always makes me feel

8:42

if only Rolling Stone did this more. Why

8:45

is it so rare to have this level of...so

8:47

tell us Leor.

8:48

I love referencing that Rolling

8:50

Stone to the point where I was almost like do I need

8:52

to write an entire chapter because that piece

8:54

was so revolutionary and I

8:57

didn't read it when it came out only

8:59

later and then rereading it now within

9:01

the context that we are living now with you

9:04

know later we'll get to it. I'm a piano and quite

9:06

oh it just was for lack of a better

9:08

word quite emotional and you know

9:11

Solomon Linder worked at a

9:13

Gallo Records packing plant.

9:15

Gallo Records is a famous South

9:17

African

9:18

record label and was

9:20

overheard apparently singing you know

9:22

according to this legend and

9:25

Pete Seegan the weavers then heard the record

9:27

did a version that's called Wimmoe

9:30

and then multiple other covers

9:33

later including the

9:35

tokens you know his lion's leaves tonight

9:37

became such a big hit and

9:40

Linder because if you think about

9:42

how diluted then that process is

9:45

Linder got next to no money from any of

9:47

those sales but he led the evening

9:49

birds to you know people still

9:51

knew and adored and loved them

9:53

and he always had this type

9:55

they had this type of choreography

9:58

and that high-fashion that

9:59

and it was

10:02

just a really cool

10:04

way to showcase

10:06

early pop stardom on

10:08

a local scene I think. Even if

10:10

they didn't get any money which to

10:12

be honest is just the first introduction

10:15

of such escapades.

10:18

Yeah well and then ultimately

10:20

Disney you know in 94 right? The Lion King. Yeah.

10:26

You know the last the final blow the

10:28

multi-million dollar enterprise

10:30

and here's this guy you know

10:33

working this you know working class dude at

10:36

the start of it all just completely erased

10:38

from the storyline and you and you do bring

10:40

it back which is which is amazing.

10:42

And it's kind of like breaking that fourth

10:44

you know the glass ceiling in a sense I didn't

10:46

want to push too much because you

10:48

don't ever want to break somebody's spirit you

10:51

know we all grew up with Disney and however

10:53

in whichever way you get

10:55

into foreign music you

10:58

get into music outside of the Western culture

11:00

that you've grown up in. It doesn't matter

11:03

in the end of the day we need to be grateful that

11:05

we can get access to it but

11:07

I do think that as the

11:09

world goes on and as

11:11

we

11:12

start uncovering these stories

11:15

it does shine a light on for

11:18

listeners how the music business used

11:20

to work and how it's still kind

11:23

of working

11:24

in many of those same modalities.

11:27

So you know I think

11:29

that whilst the song plays

11:31

as this inspiration and basis of the

11:33

genre it can also clearly been

11:35

seen as the influence all the way through

11:38

especially to things like you

11:40

know you mentioned great to Ladysmith

11:42

Black Mombazo now. You

11:45

mentioned how many years the song

11:47

has has an influence spanning

11:49

so as often as we want

11:52

to

11:53

revel in Disney's

11:55

romanticizing

11:58

so many of our beloved African

11:59

artists, I would love

12:02

to just go back to

12:04

the beginning and that's exactly where I

12:06

started. We figured that

12:08

given the vignette nature

12:11

of the book it would be best if we went through

12:13

some songs this way we get to play a lot of music we

12:15

get to hear your thoughts on these songs so

12:17

we asked you for your half dozen right

12:20

to guide us through the book and to guide

12:22

us through a century of South African pop so

12:25

you were going to talk about Miriam Makiwa next.

12:27

Yes I chose

12:29

patter-patter but you can listen to

12:31

every and all of her discography.

12:34

Miriam is

12:37

my the angel that I quite mama

12:39

Africa she is the meaning of

12:41

it and obviously the meaning of the song

12:44

is touch touch in Goza and

12:46

it describes a really popular dance

12:49

from the Shabines which is kind of

12:51

just the local watering holes essentially

12:53

in the townships the local bars

12:56

and they are run and frequented

12:59

by locals. patter-patter

13:01

what she says kind of which I

13:03

think I quote in the book patter-patter is the name

13:06

of the dance and she says it in the song that

13:08

we do down Johannesburg

13:10

way and everybody starts to move

13:13

and I love it you can almost hear her

13:15

smiling isn't that extraordinary

13:17

that you can kind of hear an artist smiling

13:20

in her own song because she knows patter-patter

13:23

can also have many other meanings

13:25

in that it could also mean black

13:28

oppression having to put

13:30

a patter around touch touch

13:34

see see all of their emotions

13:36

were oppressed and especially

13:39

during apartheid and

13:41

I feel like when she's smiling and she's

13:43

reveling

13:43

in the beginning in the songs bridge

13:46

the that rich backing band ramping

13:49

the groove back up to set her it sets

13:51

the tone you get to know her immediately

13:54

you don't have to

13:55

what questions do we ask you know what

13:57

what do we need to ask she she introduce

14:00

herself so beautifully.

14:02

["Pata Fata"] Well,

14:26

it seems to be that's kind of a thread you

14:28

hear in a lot of the South African

14:30

music that you highlight. There's this

14:32

buoyancy to it.

14:34

You feel lighter than air when you're

14:36

listening to it. You want to dance, and at the same

14:38

time, there's sort of a darker tone. In some

14:40

of the lyrics, a lot of it's coded because they

14:42

couldn't... I mean, the government would shut them down,

14:44

right, if they were... you know, they're living in

14:46

this apartheid country where people

14:49

of color are completely shut down.

14:51

And to express themselves directly in music would

14:53

have led to consequences that they

14:55

didn't want. So they had this kind of coded stuff in

14:57

the music. And what you're saying about Pata

14:59

Fata is amazing. How does a song

15:02

like that... it's obviously an incredible song,

15:04

but what was the pattern of South African

15:06

music

15:07

being taken and obviously Western

15:09

culture taking it to a different place, but how

15:11

did Miriam make that transition

15:14

from being a local artist to a

15:17

international superstar, really? Well, I think

15:19

also, just from the outset,

15:22

she had to flee. So physically

15:24

and geographically, she had to leave

15:27

because of her fervent activism,

15:29

you know. And I think in terms of

15:31

anchoring, if you just listen just

15:34

theoretically, musically, that

15:36

low piano cording anchors

15:38

everything, and that... it's

15:41

relatable because we hear it in other

15:43

styles of music. There's that tambourine

15:46

heavy percussion. There's that vocal

15:48

track, obviously first and foremost. But

15:51

following on from what we were just talking about in

15:53

Mabube, this was quela.

15:56

So there's typically like a penny

15:58

whistle or a saxophone. her voice

16:00

takes that place of the Penny whistle.

16:03

And I think that helped because music

16:05

is visual, right? It's so visual.

16:08

So taking out that Penny whistle, I

16:10

almost was thinking when I was writing

16:12

the book that she replaced

16:14

it. Also, maybe she knew

16:16

it at the time. I wish we could ask her,

16:19

but I think she knew that a voice, a

16:21

feminine,

16:22

strong voice would reach

16:25

places that maybe prior

16:28

to her music, maybe it didn't. I

16:30

also think that she called it one of

16:32

her most insignificant

16:35

songs. That's also the funny

16:38

thing about it. Because while

16:40

it was maybe insignificant for her, it

16:42

was so significant for all of us. I

16:45

quote in the book about how

16:47

it gave a lot of black Americans their first

16:50

intro as well to African culture. Tanisha

16:52

Seaford wrote in her book, when

16:56

liberated threads, black woman

16:58

style in the global politics of Seoul,

17:00

that book, they said that by the late sixties,

17:03

they traded in certain hairstyles

17:07

because it was now

17:09

more common to listen to South African

17:11

music. Maqueba's feminism

17:14

had such a great impact. I think that's

17:16

why it reached further than the

17:19

borders of South Africa. I

17:21

think that family

17:22

structures were such

17:25

at the time that people of color

17:28

were moved because of apartheid out

17:30

of urban areas. So they were

17:32

forced to travel really far

17:35

to just work. And at

17:37

times forced to then abandon

17:39

their family and mom mothers became

17:42

that strong point, which is why typically

17:45

I can imagine whilst the

17:47

dad is working, many of the kids

17:49

and the moms were listening to Mama Africa,

17:52

their mother

17:52

of Africa, Maria Maqueba. And

17:56

I think that as disastrous

17:59

as that heinous

18:02

political time was, you

18:05

ask any South African and they'll

18:07

look really fondly at the music

18:10

that came out of there. When we return,

18:12

we continue talking about South African

18:14

music with Leora Phillips on

18:16

Sound Opinions.

18:21

Hello listeners, it is your friends

18:23

Jim and Greg coming to you with

18:25

a throwback to our public radio

18:28

days. We're doing a pledge drive. Sort

18:31

of a pledge drive, mostly not

18:33

a pledge drive. We're not taking away any

18:35

content you would normally get from us. No,

18:38

yeah, not gonna be 20 minutes of

18:40

us doing this. We're just taking a minute

18:42

in the podcast to urge you to

18:44

consider supporting us on Patreon.

18:47

You may not be aware, but advertising

18:50

income for podcasts

18:50

has been dismal lately

18:53

and things are tough at public radio on

18:55

good old terrestrial radio too. We're

18:58

feeling the pinch, no two ways about it. We

19:00

lost our cornerstone sponsor of 10 years

19:02

at the end of 2022. And

19:05

now we're relying on the support of music

19:07

fans like you more than ever.

19:09

You know, if you've never done Patreon before, don't

19:12

be intimidated. It's really easy. Just

19:14

visit patreon.com slash

19:17

sound opinions. Choose a level

19:19

you're comfortable with and we'll get your vote

19:21

of confidence every month. We love

19:23

being an independent show. We love not having

19:26

any bosses. We love being supported

19:28

by listeners to whom we mean something.

19:31

If Patreon seems daunting, you can go to our

19:33

website. We have a link to PayPal there too.

19:36

But we love having you on board because you get

19:38

all sorts of extra special content if

19:41

you're a Patreon member. And Greg,

19:43

I am told by our ace producers that

19:46

something like only one in 10 of

19:48

the regular podcast listeners is a Patreon

19:50

member.

19:50

Yeah, we need to up that rate.

19:53

That would be great. It would be hugely

19:55

helpful. It should be emphasized, any

19:58

amount helps.

19:59

give us a mint but any amount

20:02

does help the show. It really does. It continues to

20:04

move forward. And now on with the

20:06

good stuff right? Yeah I'll give you the drum roll. That

20:08

was your line. I'm stepping on you here. Now

20:10

let's get on with the show. All right.

20:13

And we are back. This week we're taking

20:16

a tour of some of the great music to come

20:18

out of South Africa with South African

20:20

journalist and author Lior Phillips.

20:23

Let's jump back into the conversation. Well

20:26

you already mentioned Ladysmith Black

20:28

Mombazo and so many westerners

20:30

know them only courtesy of Paul Simon.

20:33

But tell us the approach you took Lior

20:36

to this incredible combo.

20:37

Yeah this is Ladysmith Black Mombazo.

20:40

I chose Nomatemba.

20:58

And

21:01

I think

21:03

it's just such a prime and I'm sure

21:06

you guys will agree it's such a prime example

21:08

of Istikatimir that

21:10

style that's rooted in Zulu

21:13

traditions that were

21:15

largely of course it's all men

21:17

standing together largely a cappella

21:20

and this song obviously you

21:22

know that can translate to walk softly which

21:25

is quite an interesting comparison

21:27

to the wild lion call

21:30

of Mabube. It's

21:31

sweet, it's harmonious, there's

21:34

this tight unity and

21:36

I feel like it's a relatively safe choice

21:39

for the government wanting to put

21:41

it on the radio compared to wilder

21:43

genres you know like jive

21:47

and because it shared roots with jazz you

21:49

know as far as far back as the 1960s at

21:53

the formation of Ladysmith Black Mombazo

21:56

you can get into the genre so

21:58

easily because you're a two-

21:59

essentially to that style

22:03

because it's like a competition right this

22:05

is rooted in these competitions

22:07

between local singing groups that's

22:09

what the genre started out as and

22:12

and the group has obviously featured

22:14

so many rotating number of male

22:16

vocalists with Joseph Shavallala as

22:19

a soul I talk about a lot in my

22:21

book as a soul member and so

22:23

much has been written about ladies with black

22:25

Mambazo for good reason it's

22:28

the group's ability like the

22:29

namesake it's the word

22:32

for acts Mambazo it's the group's ability

22:34

to like chop down competition you know

22:37

and so the Africans are so so the

22:40

Africans are so warm and so

22:42

aspirational and yet so

22:44

intentional that many of

22:47

the storylines you'll see have quite

22:49

a literal meaning and I kind of love that it's

22:51

like here's my axe I'm gonna chop you

22:53

down with this beautiful vocal

22:55

harmony

22:58

you address in your book the Paul

23:00

Simon Graceland album

23:02

where you know there was a boycott there were some controversy

23:04

some people thought it was a bad idea to

23:07

make the artists and music makers

23:09

pay for you know the sins of

23:11

the government Simon was persuaded by a couple

23:14

of I think Harry Belafonte and Quincy

23:16

Jones I think you mentioned you know said to him

23:18

you know hey you should do

23:20

this you know and and it did

23:22

give lady Smith black Mambazo

23:25

a second life and maybe

23:27

a new life in in America they

23:30

had a number of albums following that where

23:33

do you stand on that I mean what's your what's your

23:35

stance on Simon doing that because

23:37

obviously the album

23:38

was replete with South African

23:41

references he loved quela obviously

23:43

yeah is it an appropriation or was

23:45

it something that was helpful

23:46

well I don't know if I have any right

23:48

to say whether or not it's appropriation since

23:51

I'm a white South African I think that

23:53

that's also in terms of just

23:55

what I feel when I was growing

23:57

up it never seemed appropriate

23:59

and I do believe

24:02

that cultural boycotting has its

24:04

merits and I feel like

24:06

going against that in a time

24:09

that many, you know, we didn't

24:11

have social media back then. So

24:13

no one was, people were reporting,

24:15

journalists were reporting as best that they could. But

24:19

as I was reporting, and I've written about it quite a

24:21

few times prior to the book, especially

24:23

with regards to the term world

24:25

music and that terrible genre

24:27

term, which I

24:29

hate and am very an advocate

24:32

against. And I think

24:35

talking to, if you speak to any

24:38

session musician who was a part

24:40

of that record or even just on the periphery

24:43

of that microcosm, they

24:45

will only say good things about being

24:47

a part of it. Because that's

24:50

the ironic thing about exploiting

24:52

cultures, is that you put somebody

24:54

in a position where, of course

24:56

they're going to want work, of course they're

24:58

going to do their best work, and

25:00

then you're going to give them a platform. You

25:03

can't look at Paul Simon

25:05

and say that his love of this music

25:08

is, is unfound and unfair. He

25:10

did what he thought was best,

25:12

and I think he did it in,

25:14

in the best and most polite

25:17

quote unquote way he could. People

25:19

were paid maybe not as much

25:21

as they should have been. But I think my thoughts

25:24

are complex. My thoughts are still evolving.

25:27

I think the more and more I uncover

25:30

about the scenario in that time, I

25:32

just wish I was a part of just

25:35

the decision making as to why they

25:37

decided to even do it in the first place. I

25:39

understand visas. You can't just fly people

25:42

around the world and get them out of the country where

25:44

there's

25:44

strife and civil war.

25:47

But I do think that when

25:49

you have an artist with that stature

25:51

making decisions like that,

25:54

it becomes very

25:57

shaky ground. still

26:00

believe that it potentially

26:03

could have maybe happened

26:05

after and or during

26:09

things were getting better and

26:11

I don't think he was the lever

26:13

to move it but I do

26:16

appreciate celebrating South African

26:18

artists in every single way and the way

26:20

that he did it. I do appreciate it. What

26:23

do you guys think about it? Like when you were reading

26:25

about it in the book and or

26:27

reading about it prior to this, what do you think

26:30

about that scenario?

26:31

I interviewed him several times

26:33

and the first time I interviewed him, that

26:36

record was still fairly fresh. He gave

26:38

an explanation much along the

26:40

lines of some of what you're saying in terms of

26:42

the positive aspects of it but there's no

26:44

doubt that I think he put his music

26:47

ahead of everything political. It shouldn't

26:49

be political. Well, it is political because he did

26:51

this. You can't just skirt

26:53

around it that way. Absolutely.

26:55

And I look back on the careers, like

26:58

a number of those musicians that he used, I mean he

27:00

consistently

27:01

used,

27:02

those musicians were still part of his bands decades

27:05

later. I mean they were touring with him. They

27:07

said they were well compensated for

27:10

their, you know, you're

27:11

part of a huge band and a

27:13

key part of it and ditto

27:15

for Ladysmith. They did

27:18

really well commercially in the United States because

27:21

of their exposure on that record. But you

27:23

know it's like the Rolling Stones. If

27:27

this is your gateway drug to

27:29

go back and dig into Coco Taylor

27:32

and Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf,

27:34

right, but then you discover Coco Taylor,

27:36

Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, and there's no reason to listen

27:39

to Little Red Rooster by the Rolling Stones again. You

27:41

know, fine, go to Exile on Main

27:44

Street. There's nothing wrong with that. I'll take

27:46

it. I mean Paul Simon

27:48

opened up my ears to a lot of South

27:50

African music and I don't think I've listened to

27:52

Graceland in 25 years, Greg.

27:54

I got, you know, like. Well I'm with you in that regard.

27:57

The Stones pointed the finger back towards those

27:59

blues artists.

27:59

I would not have known about some of those blues

28:02

artists if the Stones hadn't covered their song so

28:04

I come at it from a naive musical

28:07

standpoint Yeah,

28:10

it's where we all come from and I think that that's such

28:12

a beautiful point because isn't that the fascination

28:15

about popular music Where and

28:18

how who says how we can get into

28:20

a room who says how we can get

28:22

access into popular music I

28:25

don't say it. You don't say it. We just

28:27

give people a vehicle and hope that we

28:29

Celebrate that artists work and

28:32

creativity I love

28:32

the scattling of

28:35

Africa Each

28:37

and every one Who's

28:40

on my journey in their hearts of

28:42

burning I'm bound beneath

28:45

the compass of

28:47

Continue this musical tour for us Jaluka.

28:50

Oh, oh my gosh, so I think

28:52

they fit so perfectly here because

28:55

it's called Scattlings of Africa He

28:58

was Johnny Clegg was just

29:01

The

29:01

legendary icon

29:04

at the time of me, especially growing up he

29:06

was known as the white Zulu and He

29:10

completely rejected strictures of apartheid,

29:12

you know, even if you we read

29:14

about it a lot But then you actually saw

29:17

him

29:17

doing exactly what he was saying within his

29:20

music and within his media

29:22

interviews it never allowed

29:24

him to ever hang out with black musicians,

29:26

let alone even perform with them in

29:28

those shabines and Johnny

29:30

instead said right. Well, I'm

29:33

gonna learn then the Zulu culture. I'm gonna learn

29:35

how to speak it I'm gonna take it into

29:37

my complicated childhood and let let

29:40

me grow from it And this is fascinating

29:42

coming right after speaking about somebody like Paul

29:44

Simon because Johnny Clegg was South African

29:47

and instead of appropriating something

29:50

he became it and You

29:52

know here and sephore who

29:55

is still alive and well who I interviewed for

29:57

my book mat

29:59

They got arrested a bunch,

30:02

but they loved each other and connected

30:04

in music. And

30:07

Johnny became this star. And

30:10

mostly he became a star in France. And

30:13

I think he reportedly outsold

30:15

Michael Jackson once. Which we love

30:17

a king. We love a Zulu king. So

30:22

I'll take that. And you know

30:24

how popular Michael Jackson

30:26

was. So it was the biggest

30:29

icon in South Africa. Talking

30:31

about an international icon. So that was a great

30:33

experience. And I think the

30:36

reason why I wanted to include Jeluka as well

30:38

is because there has been

30:41

limited to no press ever.

30:44

And all biographies written about Cephal. And

30:47

you're talking about one of the most acclaimed

30:50

and talented musicians of

30:53

South African popular music history. And

30:55

it's because he

30:57

wrote the music with Johnny, performed

30:59

it sometimes and then went

31:02

back home. And that home is

31:04

in a place that is, you cannot access

31:06

it.

31:07

You can't just fly into O'Hare International

31:09

Airport. You know and then access Chicago.

31:13

It's not like that where he lives. And

31:15

the way that I was able to get quotes was

31:17

I got in touch with someone

31:20

who then called his manager, which is

31:22

not really his manager, it was his friend. And

31:25

talking about separating the business. This

31:27

man does it for

31:30

every other reason than the business.

31:33

And that is why this music is so bone tingling.

31:38

You know, it's so the way that he

31:40

sings. And

31:43

just how pop leaning this

31:46

scattlings of Africa became. And how

31:48

cool that is that we got to, it acts

31:51

as kind of like the core to the record. You know,

31:54

it's got synths and there's this

31:56

chorus structure that's got Zulu

31:58

backing vocals. just an it

32:00

was an enmeshing. It was this

32:03

mashup that we hadn't

32:05

really experienced on that level before.

32:08

So getting hold of him was the

32:12

one of my favorite parts of this. It

32:14

felt like I was on the ground

32:17

and I did and I so I sent questions

32:19

and I wanted to talk about

32:21

his entire life and he was like

32:24

we can't do that. But

32:26

I love that he was available

32:29

to talk about it

32:29

and so was Johnny's son, Jesse

32:32

Clegg, who's an acclaimed musician back home as

32:34

well in South Africa. And he

32:36

said something so beautiful that

32:38

I hope I'm not misquoting but he was just

32:40

saying how it was his dad's personal

32:43

favorite song, Scatterlings of Africa

32:45

from his catalogue because Johnny

32:48

himself was a Scattling of Africa. Cephal

32:50

himself was a Scattling of Africa and

32:53

you

32:54

know Johnny was born in Manchester

32:56

then Africa kind of

32:58

saved his life in many ways and the song

33:01

is how we originate from one place very

33:04

fitting as somebody who's South

33:06

African Capetonians speaking to you in Chicago.

33:09

You know we originate from a place

33:11

and then

33:13

this mother continent we

33:15

kind of scattered around the world but

33:18

the music brings us home to that

33:20

true

33:20

story and that's

33:22

just so you can't deny

33:24

that so hate to get mushy

33:27

but you can't deny that that's just beautiful.

33:29

That song actually got a lot of commercial

33:32

airplay in Chicago in the 80s. You

33:34

know again it was one of those songs that

33:36

sort of educates you you know about the perspective

33:39

from a

33:40

country where you didn't hear a lot

33:42

of music on a regular basis through the typical

33:44

mainstream outlets but that song sort of broke

33:46

through to another level so

33:48

yes I love that. It's popularity.

33:51

Yeah and I love that note.

33:53

It is fascinating and especially that's why I

33:55

really I mean again we can you

33:57

know cut this up but I loved...

33:59

I love the opportunity to chat to the two

34:02

of you because I also think that there

34:04

is a limitation to African

34:06

music in the Western culture and

34:08

it doesn't box us. Just

34:13

because you listen to one African song

34:15

or a song from Africa doesn't mean that

34:17

you are suddenly meant to know everything about

34:20

the song, the artist, the country it

34:22

came from and I think we are getting better

34:25

at it now. But a song like Scatterlings

34:27

of Africa really again

34:29

you use the word earlier jump, it's a

34:32

gateway. It can get you then into

34:34

Johnny's entire catalogue

34:36

and then go to other

34:38

artists who adopted that same

34:41

mode of creativity by it, you

34:43

know, not ignoring. Well is this why,

34:46

Leora, you despise the

34:48

phrase world music? It's like you

34:50

know there's our music and then there's this

34:52

other stuff from everywhere else. I

34:55

mean it's exotic. I have so

34:57

many college students who are obsessive

34:59

now about K-pop. You know. Oh

35:02

yes, yes. And I mean it's not world music, that's

35:04

their music. That's this. It's all our

35:06

music. It's typified in the

35:08

name. It is Korean pop. It

35:11

doesn't need another name. We don't need to be

35:13

lazy. We can actually and

35:15

you know I think that we know why it

35:17

originated. I'm not going to go into the history of that.

35:19

I don't think we have time. It would be a cool conversation

35:22

for another time. I think The Guardian has

35:24

written amazing things. Let's

35:26

go out and copy and we can chat about it. But I think

35:30

there's a part of me and I hate to admit

35:32

it that I understand it. I

35:34

really understand the need for boxing

35:36

genres and I think that's what's

35:38

so fascinating about

35:40

this 33 and a 3rd series is

35:43

that they are using sub-genres

35:45

to get you into a wider scope of music

35:48

which is why my book is

35:50

kind of standing out in a sense and

35:53

I don't know if that's a good or bad thing but

35:55

it's because I couldn't just you when

35:57

you speak of South Africa you cannot speak of

35:59

wine.

35:59

face, one language, one

36:02

genre. You have to speak about it all.

36:04

They all come hand in hand. So, you

36:07

know, he's singing like

36:09

I love the scattlings of Africa,

36:11

each and everyone in their hearts a burning hunger

36:14

beneath the copper sun.

36:16

Poetic. And I think that that's a beautiful way

36:19

to get anybody into it. And if you want

36:21

to call it world music,

36:23

do it, you know, just make sure I'm not

36:25

in a hundred mile radius of you. Leora

36:30

will kick your butt. When

36:33

we return more South African music,

36:35

you need to hear, including

36:38

something more contemporary on Sound

36:40

Opinions.

36:45

And we're back. This week we're talking

36:48

about the vibrant music of South Africa.

36:50

Let's get back to it.

36:51

Each chapter has its own little playlist,

36:53

which I think is a great help to a lot of readers

36:56

who want to learn more about how fascinating

36:58

this music is. And one of the artists that

37:01

you wanted to talk about, Brenda Fossey, was one

37:03

of my favorites. And I

37:06

remember when she died in 2004 at age 39. There

37:08

was this outpouring of just grief from notable

37:10

figures around the

37:16

world because she was such an

37:18

important figure in that music. Tell

37:21

us a little bit more about Brenda Fossey.

37:22

I knew I wanted to write this

37:24

book because of Murray McKeever

37:27

and Brenda Fossey. You know, it's,

37:30

she is this legendary

37:32

artist who, as you mentioned, died at 39. She was

37:35

kind of known as

37:37

the Madonna of the township. I

37:39

only remember, you know, we didn't really have

37:41

like an us weekly or

37:44

whatever. We had the U magazine,

37:46

which was our kind of tabloid-ish and

37:48

she was all over it, but not because

37:51

of her bisexual, drag

37:53

addiction, drag addiction

37:55

nature. She was there because she was this provocateur

37:58

that we loved watching.

37:59

You know when? Provocateur

38:02

at a time when black South Africans especially

38:05

black South African woman were

38:07

expected to be secondary and Brenda

38:10

just said absolutely hell no.

38:13

I she insisted I love

38:15

that even as a young girl I

38:18

watched her and I wasn't Badly

38:20

influenced by this woman gyrating

38:23

on stage. I was Enthralled

38:25

it was I remember so many stories

38:29

of just watching her

38:29

come on our local s a b c channel

38:32

and Just just

38:34

seeing that there was somebody who insisted

38:37

that she was gonna be a star She didn't

38:39

say I make music want

38:41

to hear it. She was like I'm here You

38:44

need to listen to me every single

38:46

word and where did I know

38:48

you will pay attention? You will pay attention

38:50

and where does that come from? You know that

38:53

that that confidence in

38:55

in the midst of coming out of an

38:57

apartheid regime and That

39:00

moment especially with William de la which

39:02

is I think it's 95 that

39:05

moment was bringing traditional

39:07

and International pop

39:10

together I find like especially if

39:12

you look at the contrasting pop stardom

39:14

of Brenda fussy and Yvonne

39:16

chuck a chucker at the two sides of the

39:18

coin and I got a chance

39:21

to chat to Yvonne You know she was sitting

39:23

in her recording studio and

39:25

showed me all of her awards just lining

39:28

her walls I wish I I mean we spoke for

39:30

hours and There is

39:33

not there wasn't one conversation that Yvonne

39:35

and I had that left out

39:37

Brenda She Brenda was part

39:38

of every conversation and

39:40

that's her quote-unquote competition

39:43

So just showed you how that

39:45

Madonna of the township she was crazy

39:48

She had drug issues Crazy

39:50

in the best way. I use that term very lightly

39:52

and celebratory you

39:54

know that song especially the reason why I chose

39:57

it was because

39:59

It may have some seemed cliche, but

40:01

it is a song of hope. You know, it's

40:03

kind of telling people to make way,

40:06

which is essentially the reason, the

40:09

meaning behind it, and pay

40:11

attention that like, hey, my

40:13

son's getting married, you know? Like,

40:16

it's sad in context

40:19

because if you knew the contextual history

40:21

of that song, she did overdose

40:24

not long after that, but the fact

40:26

that she was so

40:28

indebted to her

40:30

own identity in a society

40:35

that was forced to break that down

40:38

just means that that song now, it

40:41

means even more now as

40:43

a South African than it did back then, you

40:46

know? And- A little bit of echoes

40:48

of Kurt Cobain, I thought, while

40:50

you were telling that story and while I was reading that chapter,

40:53

right? Oh, right. Not

40:55

a death wish, dies of an

40:57

overdose, that dies by his own hand, but

41:00

the lust for life is there in the music

41:02

always. ["Flufi"] It

41:20

sounds

41:20

so flowery and so fluffy

41:23

when we speak like this, but it really

41:25

is the truth because we are left

41:28

now with that legacy and thank

41:30

God she put herself

41:33

out there whilst being

41:35

bisexual was not a

41:38

common thing. You know, homophobia

41:40

because of religious aspects is so ginormous

41:43

in South Africa and Africa at large.

41:45

And she broke down those stereotypes

41:48

and she just said, I've got

41:50

this voice and you're gonna listen

41:52

to me. And it

41:55

is so sad to, I wish she was here.

41:58

Can you imagine when I was-

41:59

When I was writing the book, I was just thinking like,

42:02

after I kind of touched on my chapter 11,

42:05

which is more about current

42:07

artists, I was just thinking how

42:09

many of them look to her

42:11

music

42:12

and say that they've been inspired

42:15

and or influenced entirely.

42:18

And you just think, oh, I

42:20

wish she was still around. But she gave

42:22

us-

42:22

It goes on and on, the influence. Yeah,

42:25

but she gave us a lot. And I love that she went

42:27

from the format of

42:29

being in a band as a backing

42:31

singer to the forefront. And

42:34

that's why I think she has such a

42:36

long lasting legacy. No one

42:38

can say that Brenda Fassie's music

42:40

is not fun,

42:42

even if it's dark and twisted in

42:45

spots and turns, it's so fun. Yeah,

42:48

and I love that also Greg, you mentioned earlier

42:50

about the playlists, because I

42:53

think whenever I read a music

42:55

book,

42:56

I think authors try so hard. And

42:58

when you're writing in this medium that's on paper,

43:00

you can't click, we can't click on this

43:03

digital pad and send us to

43:05

this automatic

43:07

song. And I just wanted to

43:10

try and get some

43:12

gateway songs in there so that we

43:14

can really enjoy

43:16

just being able to, I

43:18

think there's something really celebratory

43:20

about arriving to a book and knowing that you're in a

43:23

conversation and you're learning as

43:25

opposed to, this is what you need to know,

43:28

this is why you don't know it. So

43:31

I think I wrote the book

43:33

as somebody who would have read the

43:35

book.

43:36

And that's, these playlists

43:38

are just the beginning. It's

43:41

endless. I would love to continue

43:44

making them for the rest of my life.

43:46

I have a feeling like all

43:48

music lovers, you had a really hard time

43:51

winnowing it down to just a handful of songs.

43:53

You call it a micro playlist, because you can tell

43:55

like, I'm really gritting my

43:57

teeth that it has to be a micro playlist.

43:59

This is essentially a desert island

44:02

jukebox segment with Lior

44:04

Phillips. So we've been talking to

44:06

you, Lior, about South African popular

44:08

music. A generic title, a

44:10

broad title, but one that comes

44:13

to life on every page of this book. We could

44:15

talk to you forever, but you're going to give us one more

44:17

artist, kind of taking us up to the current day.

44:19

So the next song I chose is Black

44:21

Coffee, who we all love,

44:24

featuring Bocina Clongo. It's

44:26

called the Sizwe, and oh, this

44:29

song. If it doesn't just grab

44:31

you from the minute it's press his

44:33

play. I think, you know, Busi

44:35

forged the way. Also Busi passed

44:38

away in 2010, and

44:40

they forged the way of Mascunda. And

44:43

I think that this, you know, this

44:45

artist, Black Coffee, has become

44:48

this global phenomenon.

44:49

And you look at all the artists that we've

44:51

chatted through over the last hour,

44:53

and you see how somebody

44:55

like a Maria Makeda Andorre,

44:58

Johnny Clay Gandore, Ladysmith

45:00

Black Mombazo, whilst

45:03

they are so well known, the Black Coffee

45:05

reach is

45:07

something we have never seen before.

45:09

I mean, other than our, other than like Charlize,

45:12

Turon, you know, Black Coffee

45:15

is one of the most, and our Trevor Noah,

45:17

our own Trevor Noah, Black Coffee,

45:20

you know, is one of the most celebrated

45:23

artists right now. And he got

45:25

a big boost of global attention from Drake,

45:27

obviously sampling him. But then

45:30

got actually, Drake decided, okay,

45:32

I'm going to sample this music, but I'm actually going to

45:34

bring him in. And he got

45:36

brought into

45:37

actually producing for Drake. And

45:40

I think that that's another modern echo

45:42

that comes in the form of Drake's 2022 album,

45:46

honestly, nevermind, because I don't

45:49

know what it would have been if he hadn't

45:51

been introduced to those producers. So

45:53

I'd like to thank Black Coffee for that, and

45:56

many other artists.

46:00

Yeah hooaha

46:06

Yeah yeah yeah If you

46:08

dance with it Yeah

46:10

I said yuh So true Yeah

46:16

That's what I said

46:18

You know, in 2022, Black Offie

46:21

got his Grammy for Best

46:23

Dance Electronic Album for

46:25

Subconsciously It was a super

46:28

but think about it now It was kind of a

46:30

moody record, you know because

46:33

he decided to go from kind

46:35

of boppy-ish back

46:37

in the day, like when he was DJing

46:39

clubs to his record

46:42

last year, Pairing House

46:45

and this kind of like romantic

46:48

frustration and I love

46:51

the features that he called to on this record You've

46:53

got Asha, David Guetta, you've got

46:55

Diplo, Pharrell and

46:57

it just showcases the reach of Black Offie

46:59

and it is a jump Look, we're going from

47:02

Brenda to Black Offie There's a huge

47:04

jump and I recognise that but for

47:06

the sake of us discussing it I think that it's

47:09

a worthy jump to know that the

47:12

reach that Black Offie has had on the global stage

47:15

is one of, he's now one of

47:17

the biggest popular music stars you

47:20

know, in the world and it

47:22

all came from a love of local

47:28

beats that he was making and

47:30

hearing in clubs, in shavines

47:33

and I think it just has brought this song especially

47:36

It really brings you into South African

47:39

house further and further and

47:42

I think it's a great way to... If you

47:44

don't know much about South

47:47

African house music but have a really

47:49

large call back on house

47:51

music in general especially as Chicagoans I

47:54

think that Black Offie is a really

47:57

honest and perfect

47:59

addition to it any of your playlists. And

48:01

I say this in the best way possible,

48:04

easy listening.

48:06

I can listen to black coffee

48:09

at any part of the day with any

48:11

mood, and that's not for every type of music.

48:13

Believe me, when I'm down and out, there's

48:15

artists that I turn to and they are there for

48:17

me. And I love being down in the dumps, but

48:20

black coffee somehow is that neutralizer

48:23

and he is so talented and just

48:26

thought, why do I need to stay in South Africa

48:30

and play only? So he's traveled

48:32

the world. And I think that access has gotten

48:35

him,

48:35

gotten other South African artists

48:38

a lot of access. And I like that he's done that,

48:40

you know? One of the things I like about him

48:43

is that he's taken this music internationally.

48:46

He's one of the big club DJs in the world,

48:48

obviously, but he started out, there's

48:51

a lot of South Africa in his music, I think

48:53

it was a remix of a Hugh Masekela record

48:56

that got him going. Hugh Masekela, obviously, another

48:59

giant of South African music.

49:02

But that was sort of the starting point for

49:05

black coffee's career.

49:06

I mean, and the career

49:08

and his music is emblematic of

49:10

now the evolution of all those forms of

49:13

genre. Quito, prom,

49:15

I'm a piano, all using

49:18

electronic music as that lever in

49:20

that evolution. Because you

49:22

look at something, if you want to,

49:25

I look at black coffee as on a mind

49:28

map, you can then map the evolution

49:30

of all of the new and unique voices for

49:32

black South Africans after the fall

49:34

of apartheid. And you can link him

49:36

directly to that because he crafted a new

49:39

language. He almost meshed

49:42

that Quito rawness

49:45

with that house lightness. And

49:48

it was able to do it in a really commercial

49:50

way. And I

49:52

mean, you mentioned Hugh Masekela. I mean,

49:54

now I'm like, like

49:56

pulling at my collar like, oh, I

49:58

should have, I should have included.

49:59

at him today but you

50:02

know at least we're talking about

50:04

him and I got to talk to his amazing son

50:07

about his life and his legacy for the book

50:09

which you can which you can I'm not sure

50:11

which chapter exactly or fan but and

50:13

I like that you mentioned that because I think that

50:15

him sampling a jazz

50:19

composer of that stature was

50:22

so smart because it was also at a

50:24

time where I think a lot of young

50:26

artists weren't really looking

50:29

at older artists as anything

50:31

influential they were like we are gonna pay

50:33

the way to the new sound and

50:36

he was giving back

50:38

and and reckoning with where his own influences

50:41

came from by doing that and I think

50:44

how can you forget you you know? Bonus

50:46

selection from Lior Phillips and

50:49

we could literally let's

50:53

literally talk we'll

50:55

have you back for another hour and we'll

50:57

talk about world music that'll be a whole recurring

50:59

episode we'll get your blood pressure

51:01

going we've been

51:03

talking to Lior Phillips author of South

51:06

African popular music thank you so

51:08

much for sharing your passion it just comes through

51:11

Lior in every word you say

51:12

oh I'm so appreciative of you

51:14

guys I just love your brains and all of

51:16

the work that you've done real superior

51:19

journalism from both of you and it's been

51:22

such a it's been such

51:24

a huge inspiration coming

51:26

to a city like Chicago and

51:29

knowing how local music has

51:31

hit Chicagoans in a way

51:33

that really I can relate to as a as

51:35

a local South African journalist and

51:38

many of the many of our

51:41

passions I think align in that

51:42

sense so I'm just so appreciative just

51:45

don't stop what you guys are doing please

51:48

that wraps up our chat

51:50

with South African music journalist

51:53

Lior Phillips and now we want to hear

51:55

from you leave us a voice message

51:57

on our website with your thoughts so we can share them

51:59

on the website.

51:59

the show. Mr. Cott, what do we have

52:02

on the show next week? Next week Jim,

52:04

in honor of Labor Day upcoming, we're

52:06

going to talk about songs about work,

52:09

our favorite tunes in that area. And

52:11

don't forget to check out our bonus podcast

52:13

feed wherever you get your podcasts. It's

52:16

never work doing this show, is it? The

52:18

views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this

52:20

program belong solely to Sound Opinions

52:22

and not necessarily to Columbia College Chicago

52:25

or our sponsors. Thanks as

52:28

always to our Patreon supporters.

52:29

Sound Opinions is produced by Andrew

52:32

Gill, Alex Claiborne and our associate

52:34

producer, Sol Delgadillo. Our

52:36

social media consultant is Katie Cott.