0:20

I bet you , I bet you , I

0:22

bet all of you , that if you

0:24

asked 100 people what most

0:27

music was written about , or at least what the most music

0:29

kind of shares in common , maybe

0:32

, like 100 people , maybe 60

0:34

, 75 , 70

0:37

, 75 of them would say the same thing . It's

0:40

the big L word .

0:43

Love .

0:43

Yeah . The New York sign it's

0:45

the horrible one Don't say that word , Four

0:48

letter words , very bad on the show . But

0:51

love , we all can say

0:53

it , we all can experience it , we all can

0:55

feel it .

0:55

But yeah , it's

0:57

a human experience .

0:58

None of us can really put words

1:00

to it .

1:01

I think that's what's so appealing about it is that it's

1:05

uncapsurable , to some degree

1:07

like the concept of it .

1:09

Yes , absolutely like , especially with

1:11

words or speaking . Sometimes

1:13

it feels so like . Sometimes

1:16

it feels so like weak to like , try

1:18

to use words or even poetry to describe love

1:20

, although many attempts have been made and some

1:22

are very , actually probably pretty good

1:24

. But music is a different language

1:26

, it's a different like , it comes

1:29

at you differently , right ?

1:30

Yeah , it evokes strong feelings . It

1:32

evokes emotions

1:34

more easily .

1:35

Yeah it's a good medium for expressing

1:38

that , yeah , people let it , and it does . Yeah

1:40

. And so maybe it's no surprise

1:43

that love makes its rounds . Yeah

1:46

, throughout all music sad , happy

1:49

. It can't be about love

1:51

.

1:51

And intrinsically I think there

1:54

are a huge amount of love songs , but

1:56

also tied in with that is the

1:58

loss , like songs about

2:00

loss .

2:01

So would you put it like if I say that most

2:03

people would say that most music is probably

2:06

written about love , or the most music that

2:09

is written about something in particular

2:11

, it's probably love ? Would you say

2:13

that , yes , like

2:16

love as it relates

2:18

to loss is the next most popular

2:20

thing , or is there's more ? I think there's

2:22

more sad love songs than happy ones .

2:24

Yeah , that's an interesting point . Yeah

2:27

, I think it's more that

2:29

there are probably like

2:31

I wonder what the runner ups to love are . Like

2:34

I think loss would be one of them and

2:36

yeah , I think you're right , like a good portion that

2:38

love group would

2:41

tie in with loss

2:43

because , it is so like , like I said , intrinsically

2:46

related .

2:46

Yeah , and also I

2:48

want to ask the question can you like

2:51

, can you truly love until you

2:53

have lost ?

2:54

Right , and the idea of like finding true love

2:56

to is like that you have had

2:58

experiences where you've lost .

3:00

You know right , right , like a lot

3:02

of experiences somehow define the

3:05

context that real love actually exists

3:07

in . Yeah . Yeah , and music

3:09

is almost an analog for this , which I find

3:11

insane . Yeah , it's like it's

3:13

us like representing this , but in an artistic

3:16

way , and the fact that

3:18

a lot you could at least say

3:20

a lot of music is written about love , right

3:23

, oh ? Yeah , it's not the most , if not the bad , a

3:25

lot of it is that

3:29

it's interesting that something so indefinable

3:31

is so important , right ?

3:34

Yeah , I mean from a human perspective . Again it

3:37

makes sense Like it's a big part of our

3:39

lives . Yeah . And something

3:41

that everyone kind of strives for , I think , at

3:43

some point or another and some way or another or

3:45

at least is told to strive for

3:48

. Right , and I think that's where

3:50

popular culture and things get

3:52

muddled .

3:52

where right that's when sociology happens and things

3:55

get complicated , right ? Yeah . I don't want to exclude

3:57

anyone who is uninterested in love or

3:59

perhaps doesn't seek it like you

4:01

are valid right , like that's a valid perspective

4:04

.

4:04

But if you take the look at the day . There's

4:07

a look at the world . Everyone is obsessed with love

4:09

. Yeah , there's a ton of material about it .

4:11

Yeah so and

4:13

we have experiences on work humans

4:16

Most .

4:16

Yeah , I mean . A lot of my favorite songs are love songs

4:18

, it's true .

4:20

I wouldn't say A lot

4:23

of the music I listen to actually isn't about love . Yeah

4:26

, that's also an interesting perspective .

4:28

I just realized this coming from the metal

4:30

side of things .

4:30

Yeah , it will specifically death

4:33

in black metal is , I

4:35

guess , not to say that it doesn't exist

4:37

, because it certainly does , but

4:39

most of it's not .

4:42

Do you have any examples of ?

4:43

human love , like love for another human

4:45

or multiple humans . There might be

4:47

love for outer space , but

4:50

I mean I think that counts .

4:52

Like we're just talking about love here in general . Do

4:55

you have any examples of some

4:58

metal music or something that ? Is

5:00

a love song Is a love song or like

5:02

you could put in that bucket , yes

5:04

, okay .

5:05

Yes , so I'm just personally curious yeah

5:07

actually there is a he's

5:10

not popular , like he won't be upset

5:12

to know that he's not like

5:14

Lamb of God or Slipknot

5:16

Right , but he releases albums

5:19

on band camp I think he signed

5:21

. He might just be independent Solo

5:23

instrumentalists , guitarists

5:25

. He does the drums and bass and

5:28

the vocals , but I believe I

5:31

don't . Please someone

5:33

do the research , correct me if I'm wrong . His

5:35

girlfriend died at a young

5:38

age , like they were in their 20s , early 20s , and

5:40

then he wrote music dedicated to

5:42

his love for her and her passing

5:45

, to honor her , her

5:47

memory , and actually he wrote these really

5:49

compelling like very technical , very

5:51

progressive death

5:54

metal albums with a lot of black metal influences as

5:56

well . I

5:58

guess I'd call them prog metal . Definitely

6:01

. It's definitely prog metal , but it has an edge , has a bite

6:03

and it's very like . I

6:05

love you .

6:06

Would you say the content leans like balladly

6:09

, or is it like kind of just

6:11

his expression of his love for her ?

6:13

I would say like half expression , half

6:15

abstract , like sort of ballad

6:18

is a good word . Yeah , not that

6:20

he writes like classic ballads

6:22

, but you feel in a very like I've listened to

6:24

a bunch of ballads moment after hearing this album

6:26

, or is at least his first one which

6:28

was written specifically about her passing . But

6:32

it's interesting that he wrote such

6:34

a technically compelling and very like

6:36

oh , that's impressive . Album

6:39

. That's also very emotionally

6:41

poignant and obviously written like

6:43

. Actually

6:45

it's one of the few albums that I have in my library where

6:47

I know was written authentically

6:51

, meaning . I know it was , I

6:54

know without a shadow of it out . I don't doubt in one

6:56

second in my mind that it was all anything

6:58

was for show . He wrote this album because he loved

7:00

this album .

7:00

Yeah , he just had to make it . Yeah .

7:02

Yeah , Like , and

7:04

to say that there aren't like a

7:06

ton of albums in my library that can

7:09

live up to that . You know , I

7:12

guess that just comes out of .

7:14

I guess the good news is there's plenty out there . There

7:17

is , yeah .

7:17

I could probably have lots to discover and learn

7:19

about love music , music

7:22

about love and ultimately loss

7:24

. But we

7:26

always joke that you listen to like sad

7:28

time music , right .

7:30

Yeah , yeah , yeah , there's a good chunk of

7:32

it that's sadder in nature .

7:34

And I've never been sadder . I'll speak first . I've

7:36

never been sadder in my life when questions

7:39

of love have come up or like

7:41

, and have been mixed

7:43

with experiences that have set me back right

7:46

Bad experiences in life

7:48

and love and loss and all the things that

7:50

many people are aware of that we don't want to

7:52

speak about specifically all the time , but yeah

7:55

, there's strong feelings , yeah

7:57

. And it's compelling , right

7:59

? Yeah , yeah

8:01

. So I don't , you know , but

8:04

I wonder why it's , why

8:07

it's ? Well , I guess we could kind of

8:09

tease out why heavy metal doesn't have

8:11

you know , it's huge

8:13

blood of love songs and my indie rock

8:15

does , or yeah

8:18

, I mean yeah .

8:18

I think there's a technical aspect to it . I

8:20

think there's also like a culture aspect to it . Okay

8:23

, I bet you , yeah , like some

8:25

of , I mean , some of my

8:27

best examples of love songs are from

8:32

either indie music from my

8:35

era of like popular music or

8:37

, like I Mean there's

8:39

really just a ton of popular music

8:41

, but like the ones I think of are mine , and then

8:43

like 50s , 60s , like the

8:46

temptations , like

8:48

my girl , that was one of the first

8:50

kind of love songs , but it's more like a teenage

8:52

bop love song and

8:56

then , like I

8:59

mean , the Beach Boys have some there

9:02

was , god only knows is like

9:04

probably the one of the most famous ones , based

9:07

on our net song , which was like from

9:09

earlier , right , and

9:12

those were just like Kind

9:15

of formative songs for me as a

9:17

person , but

9:19

they're been equally powerful . Ones that are more recent

9:21

, like the yeah , yeah , yeah has have that

9:23

song maps that everyone's heard , which

9:26

that's a good example of a song where

9:28

I believe , if

9:30

I remember my music history right

9:32

, it came together pretty quickly . Yeah . Like

9:35

. It's a really interesting and

9:37

dynamic song and people have already borrowed

9:39

from it , even in the years since

9:41

it's been out , yeah , but it kind of

9:43

fell together , yeah

9:45

, yeah and there are a

9:48

ton of examples of where that's not

9:50

true , like I Mean another

9:52

good example of like a indie

9:54

song that probably a lot of people have heard but

9:57

it's not like it was a labor

9:59

of love to make these songs . As the

10:01

magnetic fields , yeah , they had this

10:03

huge compendium of 69

10:05

love songs 69

10:07

nice but

10:09

the one of the major hits

10:11

in there was the book of love , which is in a bunch of

10:14

movies and shows for a while . Okay , stephen

10:17

Merritt , the like singer for that band , is really

10:19

like dramatic and has all

10:21

these good like kind of cues for making like

10:24

theatrical type music and he has

10:26

a really deep voice and so

10:28

it all adds up to like , like

10:31

, I guess , a powerful expression

10:33

of it's a powerful feeling , yeah

10:35

, and that leads people to do powerful things . Yeah , yeah

10:38

.

10:38

I think it makes me and you talking about this

10:41

makes me think like is Is the

10:43

best music about love written

10:45

in those you

10:47

know when you're in . You

10:49

know when you're in moments where you're love sick or heartbroken

10:52

, and like everything is the worst

10:54

and everything sucks except for Ben and Jerry's

10:56

. You like , yeah , I did

10:58

that's a good point , the

11:01

, the , the bottom of the . Well , and then things start

11:03

coming back up right as time goes on . But when

11:05

you're at the bottom , is that where the best Music

11:09

would come from .

11:10

I mean , I think a lot of love good love songs

11:12

are written when Someone is love

11:14

sick and not not in love yeah

11:16

, which is interesting . Yeah

11:19

, because I mean then you're like , okay

11:22

, well , what ? I mean I guess you're just happy

11:24

and don't it care to Put your energy

11:27

into the song . Rather , yeah , you want to put it into

11:29

a person , yeah , but

11:31

yeah , I wonder

11:33

if that's like a trend , like that'd be an interesting thing

11:35

to like kind of pull artists on . Be like

11:37

Do you write your best love songs ? Yeah best

11:40

in like numbers . That's the thing is like .

11:42

It's an interesting question because it's actually studyable

11:44

. You could probably figure it out .

11:46

Yeah , no , they'd be a good study around that .

11:47

Yeah , well , if you know , let us know

11:50

, if any of you in academic music

11:52

research and you can say oh yeah , we've done that

11:54

.

11:56

Because I want to read that .

11:57

I'm curious .

11:58

Yeah , yeah , and I think I mean we can make

12:00

a lot of guesses , but I think it's fair to say that . I

12:02

think you have energy when you're love sick .

12:04

Yeah , love song , yeah . I

12:06

think the hard part is plugging

12:08

those two things together right . Channeling the

12:11

sickness , channeling that like I need

12:13

ice cream immediately and I need to cry and

12:16

I need , like

12:18

so much to change and be different in

12:20

life .

12:22

Channeling that energy into creation

12:25

is I don't blame anyone

12:27

for not being able to do it this is

12:29

not a time it's not possible , at the time when

12:31

I mean , yeah , that's a Quite

12:33

a state to be in , yeah , so I mean that's kind

12:35

of . The other side of this whole topic is

12:37

, like , you know , love

12:40

songs are great but like , what

12:42

is the mental cost of like love

12:44

and like our love song is actually

12:47

good for people who want

12:49

to hear them ? You know .

12:51

This is getting insane . I mean , there's just a lot

12:53

of like facets to it . Yeah a weird Thing

12:56

to like because you just asked the question Do you feel

12:58

better after listening to a sad , like

13:00

, let's say , a song about loss , during

13:03

a moment of great loss or

13:05

love Sickness or heart sickness

13:08

or whatever it is Like . Does that

13:10

actually make you feel better ? Yeah or do

13:12

you just want more ? of that and like not just

13:14

yeah , like not just catharsis

13:16

, but like Actual

13:20

, cute , like healing . I

13:22

mean , yeah , the experience of music and listening

13:24

to his healing . But are you

13:26

, are you just like teasing at

13:28

the sore wound when you

13:31

Listen

13:33

to music about exactly what you're feeling

13:35

?

13:35

I don't know , yeah , no , and I think it's yeah

13:38

nuance to that way . Yeah , like .

13:41

So nuance that I guess you could even be deluded

13:43

into thinking that , even if it's not true , or

13:45

the vice versa .

13:47

Yeah , one , I mean yeah as we're saying this to him , thinking

13:49

of another example of like yeah , where

13:52

Great kind

13:54

of love loss made a record like

13:56

Julia Jacqueline . She's a New Zealand

13:58

Singer who's come

14:00

into a lot of people's

14:02

minds with songs lately . Yeah

14:05

she's had a good career , but her

14:07

first record was written After

14:10

, after she did this very like kind

14:13

of Swept up in the in

14:15

the moment thing where she moved from Australia to London

14:17

to like live with this guy . Didn't

14:20

go well , you know burqa

14:22

, but she wrote her first record out of all that , oh

14:24

yeah you know the story kind of and

14:26

yeah , the story , yeah , but it was also like she probably

14:28

wouldn't have made that record had that that not gone

14:30

.

14:30

That's the way it did and I bet you and

14:33

my estimation is that if that record

14:35

landed in the Record

14:38

player of one person that happened

14:40

to listen to it and say to themselves

14:42

, wow , this person

14:45

feels what I feel , I don't feel alone anymore

14:47

. I would say that artist , that

14:50

artist effort , has already

14:52

had a bigger positive impact on

14:54

the world , and I think most people can even imagine . Well

14:56

, I think that did happen and I think exactly

14:58

, it happened over and over Mm-hmm . I guess what

15:00

I wonder is answered our question Would she have ?

15:02

made that record and had that gone

15:05

well , that relationship right . Or

15:07

like what she may have made , a good as good a record

15:09

. It's kind

15:11

of the you get into the conversation of like

15:13

Do artists needs needs

15:15

? Do artists need to be in pain to make good art

15:17

right ?

15:18

Right , that's okay . That's the big over , that's

15:20

the big umbrella question , and I know that's been asked many

15:22

times . Yeah , yeah , yeah

15:25

, steering like to not

15:27

like open up that debate , as it's

15:29

probably been done in , like so

15:31

many conversations .

15:34

Yeah , and I mean like but it is relevant , it's not

15:36

good to be in pain , so I'm not gonna argue . Put outside

15:38

of it .

15:38

Yeah , we're never gonna say like you need to

15:40

, intentionally

15:43

putting yourself into suffering to

15:45

generate an artistic result . I've

15:48

always been like I gotta

15:50

look into that further to really question if that's good

15:53

or not . Yeah because there can be an artistic

15:55

way to maybe do it . But I

15:57

don't think that seeking what

16:00

other people seek to avoid , just to

16:02

experience it , just to make art

16:04

about it , is necessarily the right pattern .

16:06

We're getting your mind set into a place where you

16:08

think you need to do something .

16:10

Yeah , to make good art .

16:11

Yeah , yeah , that's . That's detrimental to

16:13

you . Plenty of .

16:16

Cutting-edge art and amazing music

16:18

has been made , and by people who are

16:20

extremely satisfied and happy . I mean not

16:22

everyone's perfect , but people who are , we

16:25

may say from outside , well adjusted .

16:27

Yeah , you don't need to be sick or no

16:29

mentally unwell to make good art .

16:31

But when you are sick and mentally unwell

16:34

, there's something about music , especially

16:37

music by people who are also experiencing

16:39

Like analog or similar

16:41

.

16:42

Yeah , thanks , it can be therapeutic , extremely therapeutic

16:44

.

16:44

We know , we all know this from experience , right

16:46

, yeah , that that

16:48

effects is , and that effect has always baffled

16:50

me as a metalhead , because I can

16:52

describe metal is literally that that

16:55

which is like Think

16:59

of like horror , as like an

17:01

analog for loss , right , loss and horror

17:03

kind of bad , like very bottom of

17:05

the barrel , negative feelings , and

17:07

you can be horrified

17:09

by loss , and , of course , loss

17:11

can cause all kinds of horror in your life , right

17:14

? I Just

17:16

think it's crazy that you know , I Can

17:19

sit there and listen to music about horror that sounds

17:21

horrible in moments

17:23

, in objective way , and has

17:26

a lot to do with things that are horror

17:29

related , and yet all

17:31

I feel is positive , all I feel is a positive

17:34

surge or a positive reinvigoration

17:37

or a commiseration with it , and

17:40

it never fails , it's good every time and

17:42

like I think it's similar with that whole

17:44

genre of horror Like people

17:47

who are fans of it are usually very

17:49

kind people yeah we

17:51

know this from personal experience and you can probably do studies

17:53

on this too . But

17:56

we all know the horror nerds in the metalheads are all

17:58

actually pretty aware of

18:01

themselves . Chill people , I mean , you can't speak for

18:03

everyone .

18:03

Yeah , but no . I mean it seems

18:06

to bring out the better part of people rather

18:10

than what mainstream media would have us believe which is

18:12

that it incites horror and incites

18:15

violence .

18:15

It's almost like the opposite is true from

18:18

your intuition . And this is a big learning

18:21

point , because you start talking

18:23

about intuition , love and doing opposite things

18:25

from what you normally do and you're already

18:27

describing the hell worlds of many people

18:30

who are in love , sickness and in

18:32

terrible relationships or dealing

18:34

with the loss of attraction , love , stuff

18:37

like that . So

18:40

I know I can sink people down to like the lowest

18:42

you know points . Yes

18:45

, because suddenly nothing else is relevant .

18:47

Well , that's a good segue into like talking

18:50

about loss cause loss songs , like

18:52

those sorts of songs

18:54

like I

18:57

think it's culturally more

18:59

acceptable to sing about

19:01

a lot of things related to like death and loss

19:03

in songs , and it is to even , like , say

19:05

those things , which is a weird

19:07

, interesting thing too , like

19:11

do you remember when

19:13

Johnny Cash covered that

19:15

Nine Inch Nails song ? Like

19:18

I hurt myself ? Today , that one Now

19:20

, I mean I should know

19:22

that . Forget the title of it , I think it was

19:24

. I just remember that was the lead hook , but

19:27

it was like a top 10 MTV

19:29

song for like a year or two . And

19:32

it was like just this old man singing about himself

19:34

dying cause it was like towards the end

19:36

and it

19:38

like hit , like . It

19:40

was like mainstream media , it was like

19:43

very popular song .

19:44

You know what my favorite David Bowie album is right ?

19:47

I don't know which one .

19:48

The last one . Oh yeah , black Star , black

19:50

Star .

19:50

Black .

19:51

Star . We talked about that a lot . It

19:54

is , yeah , that album's almost

19:56

unlistable it is it's so

19:58

? Good , it's so good . Yeah , in my opinion it

20:00

is without

20:03

, without him , just like literally

20:06

telling you this is my last

20:08

album . I'm dying Right , you

20:10

hear it and you know it Like .

20:13

Well , and him having to do all , like

20:15

making himself do all that too

20:17

, it's like harrowing

20:20

to even imagine . I know , like

20:22

the one song Lazarus , like that

20:24

was really good . Yeah , I get goosebumps .

20:27

Yeah , just thinking about that album . I gotta listen to that again . Yeah

20:29

. Yeah , that's one of those albums that

20:31

I'm careful about touching Cause

20:34

it yeah . I

20:36

like thinking about that album Cause it's really

20:38

. It really showcases like

20:41

and you mentioned pop and

20:43

popular music earlier and

20:45

it really showcases like maybe the best

20:48

love songs are from , I

20:51

guess , what music files

20:54

music nerds would

20:56

classify as the most panable

20:58

genre , which is pop , right

21:00

.

21:01

Yeah .

21:02

The most basic , the most popularized , the most commercial

21:04

.

21:04

I think pop is a good medium for

21:06

them .

21:07

Yeah , because like you

21:09

said . Definitely the most people know them .

21:11

Mm-hmm , but , like I said , there are

21:13

a lot of good , like smaller ball

21:15

examples of really really great songs

21:17

that are well-loved . Oh yeah , yeah . But

21:19

yeah , I think it . It pop

21:22

lends itself to that topic for sure .

21:24

So the question becomes like are the best pop songs

21:26

always about love ? You

21:29

can probably find some good pop songs that aren't but yeah

21:31

, but that's more interesting Cause .

21:32

Yeah , they might be , I mean .

21:33

Man , this if you are doing

21:36

any musicology or like writing a bachelor's

21:38

paper on like music and steal

21:40

our ideas , like if we're asking questions

21:42

that are actually decent and haven't been answered , like write

21:44

about them . Yeah . If , if

21:46

, if these are repeat questions , then call us uninformed

21:49

and stupid .

21:49

but yeah , I do want to look up some papers

21:51

on this stuff .

21:52

Yeah , yeah . People must have written about some of this and

21:54

that's , and I'll be honest , I've not

21:56

really I've spent

21:58

time in my life like looking at academic and

22:00

being in academia , but I mean looking

22:03

at academic papers and journals and publishing

22:05

peer-reviewed research

22:07

and stuff and like sociology related things , yeah , but I've

22:09

never stepped into musicology . Music

22:12

has always either been a journalistic , a

22:14

photographic or a like

22:16

you know , or

22:18

a what am I ? Consumption

22:20

experience of just listening to it . Right

22:23

yeah , man

22:28

, these questions are getting big and complex .

22:30

Yeah , there's definitely a lot of meat on these bones .

22:32

Yeah , that

22:36

makes me laugh . I don't know . I just imagine like this

22:39

musical skeleton with all this meat growing out of

22:41

them .

22:41

Well .

22:41

I'm getting some meat on my bones . Yeah , that's

22:44

all there is , I love

22:46

love . Nah

22:48

, I like , I

22:50

don't know . Love is very

22:52

complex and difficult and we haven't even like , we

22:55

haven't even etched it

22:58

microscopically or even nanoscopically

23:00

. The surface of things , everyone's

23:03

experience with love and , potentially

23:06

, loss , is like an infinite

23:08

tapestry of narratives and stories

23:10

that music can only highlight or snapshot

23:12

once or twice .

23:14

Yeah , and it's always from a different perspective . It is

23:16

, and they're so many different . I

23:19

mean just the fact that people at their weddings have like

23:21

a song that's powerful by itself , like

23:24

it's tied into the feeling

23:27

and the way

23:29

we express ourselves through love .

23:30

Man , you just lit about 58 million

23:32

neurons in my brain . I've

23:35

shot weddings for three or four years , and

23:39

so I've seen many couples in their first

23:41

songs .

23:42

And you've never thought about it in the context of music

23:45

.

23:45

I've always thought about the context of the wedding . Like

23:48

it's wedding music .

23:49

No , I mean , that was what context

23:51

you were in there . But like outside of

23:53

that they had this whole relationship and that

23:56

song is one of their pillars for

23:59

why they're there .

24:00

I know , isn't there like I

24:02

don't know . Tell me if I'm wrong or if

24:04

it's just bad of me . But is there a cringe response

24:07

to like couples in their love

24:09

song Like , oh , it's their love song , it's so cute

24:11

.

24:11

It's so like I think it

24:13

probably has more to do with the couple than the song . Yeah , gotcha

24:15

gotcha .

24:16

Well , some songs can be pretty cringey .

24:18

Yeah , that's true . Some songs can be pretty cringey . If

24:20

they are , though , they're better be a good start with it .

24:22

Yeah well , maybe it's not irony , Maybe it's like they

24:24

really like that song .

24:27

Then that's good for them .

24:28

All good for them but should

24:31

I feel bad for feeling a little cringe in the

24:33

middle ?

24:33

I guess I'm just human right , it's not your love song .

24:36

I'm just human . Love is a mystery

24:38

. It's

24:40

also a pain in the ass sometimes

24:44

, right .

24:45

It feels like something we're stuck with trying

24:47

to figure out .

24:50

Yeah , I don't imagine anyone on their wedding day

24:52

is like , wow , love is a pain in the ass . But

24:56

, sometimes you're up against the fact that love

24:58

requires work , like

25:01

you don't not only , at least from my experience

25:03

. You have to actively nurture it , like

25:06

you have as you get older . You have to like

25:08

nurture your mind and like keep learning , actively

25:11

trying and learning . We're

25:13

not sponges , as we used to be . I think love is

25:15

the same way it strengthens over time

25:17

, but only when you like give

25:19

it what it needs to build those .

25:22

Yeah , no , I agree .

25:23

I think it's strength , yeah .

25:24

Especially between people . It's like it's

25:27

not a given .

25:28

No , and nothing is like 100%

25:30

mesh . There's no like perfect

25:33

symbiosis

25:36

in the universe , but not among people , right

25:39

? There's always clash , there's always conflict , there's

25:41

always pain , there's always suffering . No

25:44

one lives completely perfect , happy lives , and

25:46

I think , as that relates to music , we

25:50

have to think like I

25:52

have to think like at

25:55

what point does the music become

25:59

a I don't know a

26:01

burden even ? or like a catchall

26:04

, or like an empty

26:06

, like an empty dive

26:08

into , into

26:11

just catharsis , right ? Just like like

26:14

the ice cream itself on a

26:16

sad day , right

26:18

, Crying in front of the fireplace or something

26:20

.

26:21

Yeah , You're saying like at what point does the

26:23

music become ?

26:24

more of an enabling bad

26:27

habits or

26:29

yeah , yeah , either

26:32

that or like . Can it become an addiction ? Can it become a like

26:35

, where you put

26:37

your problems away and then like they

26:39

feel resolved because you have some kind of use

26:41

it as a way to not deal with it ? Yeah , Like I

26:44

only mentioned this I'm not accusing anyone of this

26:46

or like saying this is like I do this

26:48

.

26:48

Yeah , I think it's a . I do this . I think it's escapism

26:50

, yeah .

26:51

Like it is . I

26:53

do this and like I'm not ashamed to admit it . It

26:55

is escapism and I think , even

26:59

though the music I listen to

27:01

is not primarily written about

27:03

love , all the time , like you

27:05

know , like when I am in moments

27:08

of pain

27:10

due to love or pain from love

27:12

it's like the music does does

27:16

give me the escape and I search for it and

27:18

I want it . Then I take it when I want it .

27:20

Yeah , brings you that comfort .

27:21

Yeah , and it's hard to resist . I

27:24

think some of that comfort is genuine and some is like

27:27

just relieving the pain

27:29

or just like a Tylenol for

27:31

it .

27:32

I mean , I think that sort

27:34

of ethos around it relates

27:36

more to loss , honestly , cause

27:38

, like , songs about loss can be cathartic and

27:41

bonding in that same

27:43

way . Yeah , like

27:45

, especially if it's about something like directly relatable

27:48

, which a lot of people have songs about , where it's

27:50

like a relative or a parent or you

27:53

know something that's like , hey

27:55

, this is a huge loss and here's

27:57

my like tribute to them , or like my

28:00

story about them .

28:01

It is . It is interesting , and I think we've

28:04

pretty much established like love and loss are so

28:06

intertwined , because loss is defined

28:08

by , you know , love . That's now

28:10

gone , because the

28:12

target of the love is unfortunately gone

28:15

too . Yeah , like loss

28:17

like to say loss , you immediately imply

28:19

love .

28:20

And this relates to another idea we

28:22

were going to talk about . But like nature

28:25

doesn't like space , so like when love has gone

28:27

, loss fills that space .

28:28

Yes , we were talking about this off camera

28:31

just more casually , and I do think it's important

28:33

to talk about because it's a good point is like

28:35

where there

28:37

are gaps and that correct me if I'm wrong , it's kind of what you're saying

28:40

where there are gaps , nature tends to

28:42

fill it with something

28:44

.

28:45

Yeah , if there's a neither role

28:47

to be filled . Nature will fill it , whether it's

28:49

part of a cell or

28:52

a spot in an ecosystem

28:54

that needs to be filled , or literal space

28:56

.

28:57

Yeah , and I think it , I think this that mechanism

28:59

is what helps it maintain balance

29:01

and thus keeps it continuing . Yeah

29:04

, definitely . Generation after generation , but proliferates

29:07

, yeah , and you can extrapolate this to like

29:09

, not just like cells or biology

29:11

, or even the rigorous mechanics

29:13

of like atoms and stuff , but like you

29:15

can actually talk

29:18

about soft topics with this

29:20

logic or this thought or way of thinking

29:22

.

29:22

Like in that way we just did . You know , love

29:24

has gone , loss fills the space .

29:26

Yeah , Just one perspective , but it what's

29:29

cool about all these perspectives is that you kind

29:31

of take bits and pieces from them and you build the

29:34

narrative of your own story , so to speak . Right .

29:36

Yeah , and

29:38

then understanding the world that you live in . Yeah , and that

29:40

doesn't mean we purport to be

29:42

masters , or anything more than

29:45

anyone else on love , but I think that's a broader goal

29:47

at least for me , is like to try to build

29:49

an understanding of like the world

29:51

that I live in , whether it's through like projects

29:54

like this or my work or

29:56

my relationships , like

29:58

you're trying to build context

30:01

or at least I am , I think music

30:03

and to exactly

30:05

what you said , music exists in all these

30:07

levels that

30:10

you're identifying .

30:11

Music is there in different ways to

30:14

help you not just cope but like

30:16

make meaning around this kind of stuff , right

30:18

? Yeah put into like emotional context

30:20

, maybe some of what you , Some

30:24

of what you're experiencing but can't really describe

30:26

in words , but you have a song that can say

30:28

it perfectly Well .

30:29

I think that's why music is so strong in these records

30:32

because it's such

30:34

an accessible way to make meaning and

30:37

make meaning that's communicable

30:39

across a lot of boundaries

30:41

. Social meaning yeah social

30:44

meaning but meaning across cultures . You

30:47

know English songs are still mostly

30:50

what the world listens to , and

30:52

outside of China probably .

30:54

What are you saying ? Western music has its dominance .

30:57

No , I'm just saying that any person who doesn't speak English

30:59

probably has listened to English songs , okay

31:01

gotcha , because they convey that meaning or

31:03

they have that context without having to understand

31:05

the language . Right , right , and the reverse

31:07

is true . It's just not on a large scale .

31:14

Yeah , and I think yeah , it's pretty well agreed

31:17

that love and loss are universals

31:20

too . Music's the only . All

31:22

these things we are talking about are , I think

31:24

, human universals , which makes

31:26

them easy to talk about because we all sort of know what

31:28

we're talking about , but it makes them very hard to talk about

31:30

because you don't want to see what's

31:33

coming .

31:33

Everyone's experience is different .

31:35

Yeah , you never want to say someone is doing this or that

31:37

or different . I've never personally

31:39

one of the past judgments in anyone's love

31:42

or loss , of course , like who am I to say

31:44

what that person feels ?

31:46

No , but I think it's safe to say if

31:49

you're seeking

31:51

love and loss . Seeking

31:54

love means accepting loss

31:56

. Yeah . They are tied together

31:58

.

31:59

Another goddamn good point on fire .

32:01

I mean it's kind of the same point but different

32:04

words .

32:04

It restates it in an interesting way is like you are

32:06

accepting when you

32:10

experience the feeling of love and you engage with it and

32:12

you nurture it and grow it . I think

32:14

we all know the

32:16

risk of loss grows greater and greater .

32:19

Yeah , either you lose the

32:21

feeling or you lose the person , like

32:23

it's not , and the

32:25

greater the feeling , the greater the loss , and

32:29

it's like an unfair mechanic , right ?

32:35

The harder , the more you experience and

32:37

the better you put your energy into this

32:39

universally positive thing that is love

32:41

, the bigger the risk is

32:43

that the worst thing will happen , right .

32:46

I don't even know if it's risk . I think it's just

32:48

your debt gets bigger , okay

32:50

.

32:51

That might be a more accurate way to put it .

32:52

I don't know , Because maybe

32:55

you'll get lucky and die first . You know .

32:58

Yeah , we're getting a little karmic maybe . Yeah

33:01

. But that's actually a fair

33:04

enough perspective . Honestly , it

33:06

describes the same thing we all observe

33:08

is that we

33:10

willingly enter into this emotion

33:13

because the

33:15

payoffs are outweigh

33:17

the risks . Yeah , and we do that with

33:19

a lot of things , and I'll say that about music too . Yeah

33:22

, there are risks too , like we

33:24

mentioned . Like you could use it

33:26

as like an empty escape , right , or just

33:28

continued like continued

33:30

distraction even and I've done this myself

33:32

but I will

33:34

accept that risk

33:37

or that negative for all the benefits it

33:39

provides .

33:40

Yeah , I'm guilty of doing the same sort

33:42

of thing too . I mean , you don't really

33:44

realize you're doing it until you have

33:46

done it for a while .

33:47

Yeah , I think it's just totally normal , right

33:49

, but it's something I like to

33:51

recognize about myself and at least be aware of

33:53

, because I'm yeah

33:57

, when it comes to just

34:00

super strong emotions . In general

34:02

, I try to be as aware

34:04

of how this music is affecting me , because

34:07

I don't ever want to be like

34:09

let astray or pushed

34:11

away by music . I don't think it would do

34:13

that to me , but

34:16

we can use that even as an analog for love

34:18

. Can

34:20

love ever lead you astray ?

34:24

I think it can . I think both things can

34:26

.

34:27

Can what's great and great and great ? We can say

34:29

that about music or love . Suddenly

34:31

, like even writing

34:33

music , can it take a bad turn ?

34:36

Oh yeah , I think the answer is definitively yes . For me

34:38

, I think again , it goes back to

34:40

just understanding context

34:42

and meaning and what it

34:45

is you're trying to achieve , because

34:47

you can do something for a very long time and then realize

34:50

I never should have done that .

34:53

I guess the question becomes do you spend

34:55

time regretting it or do you spend

34:57

that time making

35:00

changes ?

35:01

I mean , I'd like to say you spend that time making changes .

35:04

Yeah , but none of us can do that .

35:05

It's hard I used to say

35:08

it was a

35:10

funny catchphrase like no regrets all the time . But

35:13

now I'm like , well , that probably sounds

35:16

foolish , because if

35:18

you don't have regrets , you never tried anything .

35:22

Whether you dwell on them or not , is another conversation

35:24

. I guess you could

35:27

have tried many things and just be that kind of person

35:29

that just never regrets a goddamn thing . But

35:31

we're almost getting to a pathological sort of thing

35:34

, maybe .

35:36

I feel like that person is lying to themselves .

35:39

Yeah , that would be weird if you weren't

35:41

capable of feeling regret or were so deluded

35:43

that you just never felt it .

35:44

Or if you've never had a choice where

35:46

it was . However many choices you had and

35:48

you didn't regret any of them , I've

35:51

never been put on a road where one

35:53

side was always clearly the right choice .

35:57

Well , that's another big goddamn lesson , right

35:59

? I

36:06

guess the decision points are so important . Right With

36:09

love . Do you decide

36:11

to move in with the person ? Is

36:13

it the right time ? I

36:19

bet you and I've had this too where a

36:21

big moment was coming up , where something was

36:23

going to change in the relationship , whether

36:25

this was a teenage relationship or my 20s

36:27

or anything . I

36:30

always found music at the point that

36:32

felt so specifically right for

36:35

that sort of thing , even though I had nothing to do with

36:37

it specifically .

36:38

Yeah , I always would make playlists for

36:41

people or moments .

36:45

Of course you got break-up music , and then you have hook-up

36:49

music , and then you have romance

36:51

music and all the sub-dramas

36:53

of both music . Yeah

36:56

, we filled it all . Humans have filled it all out

36:58

. Basically , we

37:01

could sit here and say that music is just love and

37:03

poetry , and we would

37:05

probably be right .

37:07

There's a song for every scenario .

37:10

And like , yeah , universals

37:12

, I'm glad they exist because

37:14

it proves that , hey , like

37:17

we probably shouldn't be

37:19

blowing each other up you know

37:21

we all , we should focus on the things that

37:23

we all kind of experience and

37:25

have in common , which are very powerful .

37:28

Yeah and very like , easy

37:30

to lean into if we choose to .

37:32

Yeah , like it's as easy as listening

37:34

to a song , which is probably one

37:36

of the easiest things anyone can do is listen to music

37:39

. Yeah . You

37:41

just the only action

37:43

that's required is activating the music

37:45

.

37:46

Yeah , tune in and tune out .

37:47

Yeah , and like I could do that with my voice

37:49

right now in smart home . Yeah

37:55

, I'm like

37:58

caught up in thought too at the same time

38:01

, like personal experiences with

38:03

love and music , because it's just been so

38:06

many times where love

38:08

didn't work out or love seemed like it was working

38:10

out and then I had

38:12

the song , I had the music and

38:14

it like was very exciting and very compelling

38:17

, whether on the negative scale

38:19

or the positive scale , it

38:21

was very much loud and present .

38:24

Yeah , I think love is an emotion is

38:27

really good at hijacking

38:29

you to like feel heightened emotions

38:31

either way .

38:32

Yeah , yeah , music does the same right

38:34

.

38:34

Yeah , but music enhances it in that case , I think

38:37

. Which is a good and a bad thing .

38:39

Yeah , you gotta be careful with it . It's almost like

38:41

it's potent , it can be potent

38:43

.

38:43

I mean it's like drugs . Yeah , a little bit Music

38:46

is drugs . Yeah , drugs is Well music and love

38:48

couples , I think are a good drug .

38:50

We're at minimum . We're getting into

38:52

like like druggy , kind of

38:54

like feelings in territory . Right yeah , we

38:57

talk about those things , and I think the fact that that

38:59

is an element of them just shows how universal

39:01

these things are .

39:03

Yeah , they're not powerful they are .

39:04

Yeah , yeah , it's

39:07

funny we're off camera too . We were talking

39:09

about and we're just morbid . I guess

39:11

we were like we got onto funerals . Yeah

39:14

. We lost obvious

39:16

. And then

39:18

you asked is there the opposite

39:20

of love music ? Like

39:22

if there's wedding music , there's funeral music , but

39:25

not funeral music that

39:27

is chosen for your funeral , but funeral

39:29

music that the deceased had , prior

39:31

to being deceased , chosen themselves .

39:34

Right , like does that happen ? A mix taper

39:36

song . I mean , I'm sure it does . I

39:38

don't hear about it as commonly as a wedding song

39:40

.

39:40

I've tweeted about that before , actually years ago

39:43

. I've had this fantasy

39:45

, not fantasy of my own death , but like

39:47

fantasy of like forcing people

39:49

at my funeral as a joke to listen to . And

39:52

we have an episode on Bellwitch , bellwitch's

39:54

entire Murie per album which is like an hour and a

39:56

half long .

39:57

Oh yeah , we did talk about this , cause I remember saying the

40:00

song I chose was , or that I would like

40:02

would be , the does like . This is the

40:04

day .

40:04

The does .

40:05

this is the day yeah that was a good song

40:07

for a funeral . It's not like too sad

40:09

or too upbeat , that's like in between

40:11

.

40:12

I feel like only you would pick that song , because

40:14

that song would be perfect for only you , right

40:16

Like yeah , it makes sense for me

40:18

, I think . I like that . That's

40:20

perfect Cause , like it's a representation

40:23

of how you want people to feel

40:25

and see you , but also how you truly feel and

40:27

see yourself . Maybe .

40:28

Yeah , and it's weird too , cause I don't really listen

40:30

to them . So it's just really that song that

40:32

made sense it's gotta be a good funeral song for me .

40:35

Hell yeah , and like to be honest , I can't

40:37

sit there and digest

40:40

an hour and a half long funeral doom album

40:42

and really feel the impact

40:44

of it If I'm not in the kind

40:46

of perfect mood for it . And

40:50

not that I want

40:52

to be in a mood of loss , and not

40:54

that I want to catalyze the loss

40:56

moods of those at my funeral

40:58

. But I do truly want anyone at my

41:01

funeral to have to sit and listen

41:03

to the whole fucking thing , cause it's

41:05

that good and then I'll be happy . Then let

41:07

me go , then put me in the ground

41:09

, put the dirt on it and then walk away .

41:11

Those are the terms . It's all good , yeah .

41:13

But listen to that album and I want a tear to get them down in your face

41:15

and just feel it , Cause it's and

41:17

I was joking aside and

41:20

levity aside like it

41:22

is a very dead serious album about

41:25

friends and love

41:27

between friends , like genuine platonic love

41:29

, is true and real and is good . They

41:32

lost a friend and that

41:35

album is in their honor

41:38

. It's about loss , yeah

41:40

, and it's about therefore it's about love and

41:44

maybe that's a good point to like sort of sort

41:49

of like , I don't know not bury the hatchet

41:51

, but plant a seed is like

41:53

. I

41:55

guess planting

41:58

a seed of like trying

42:00

to think edit

42:04

.

42:04

What's your thought ?

42:08

Plant a seed of like . I

42:11

was trying to say something other than the universality

42:13

of it . I'll

42:18

back up to funeral

42:22

doom and

42:26

like so at my funeral , like , of course

42:28

, we'll have everyone suffering both

42:31

through my loss but also the song itself

42:33

. All joking and levity aside

42:35

, it truly is . It

42:38

truly is an album about loss

42:40

, and that is it demonstrates almost

42:42

so harrowingly

42:44

the feeling of loss , because the

42:46

people who wrote that album experienced it

42:48

the loss of a friend who they loved

42:51

. And

42:53

I think what we can extrapolate

42:55

from that , of course , is

42:57

that , of course , love

43:00

and loss forever intertwined , and

43:02

that these things grow so complex that

43:04

we have to start relying on like things

43:08

as abstract as music to describe them

43:10

.

43:10

Yeah .

43:11

And so I guess my question is like can

43:13

you go further than music

43:15

?

43:17

Oh , certainly . Yeah . I mean

43:19

, I'm still a

43:21

little stuck on that point where I

43:24

think someone having a love song at a funeral will be

43:26

acceptable , Cause it's like

43:28

I think it's totally acceptable

43:30

. Yeah , yeah , they still would have felt the same way

43:32

.

43:35

I think you'd probably get more tears .

43:38

Oh yeah it'd probably be more gut

43:40

wrenching .

43:40

Maybe my idea is no good . Maybe the

43:43

maybe like the funeral doom album will just be a complete

43:45

non-starter . I

43:48

mean everyone will be like Russian in the bathroom or like trying

43:50

to find the concessions at a funeral .

43:52

The good thing is , you would never know so .

43:55

I would if I was still alive and in my coffin

43:57

. Oh , yeah , yeah , fake death situation

44:00

.

44:00

Yeah , but no , I think music

44:03

as a whole just having that power over

44:07

us , even in celebrations

44:09

of life like weddings , and celebrations of death , like

44:11

funerals , like I

44:13

don't know , that's powerful by itself .

44:15

It is , it

44:17

almost has power before music even wields

44:19

its true power . It's powerful

44:22

just in the nature of it being about

44:24

those things . Yeah , it's the

44:26

great communicator it is . I

44:29

can't . I ask the question not

44:35

to be maximalist about it , like I can tend

44:37

to be because of the heavy metal thing , but what's more

44:39

is there ? More Is there like ? Can

44:42

you eke more feeling out of some art

44:44

? Depends on the person

44:46

, but I think it's just different . I

44:48

think I guess I was gonna say music . It is

44:50

different . I think music is an ultimate form , meaning

44:52

like . There's

44:54

no further distilling it , there's no like , and

44:57

this comes from someone who is a music journalist

44:59

for a decade and has tried

45:02

in every sentence

45:04

to like come to some truth

45:06

about music , but only finds more

45:09

questions right . Näода

45:15

Club Això .