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Hello! Friends my name's Tammy Simon

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Sounds True foundation.org and in

1:12

advance. Thank you for your

1:14

support. In

1:16

this episode of Insights at

1:19

The Edge, my guest is

1:21

someone that I consider a

1:23

soul friend. Issue.

1:26

Accomplished human being.

1:29

Shipped. Conley. Let me tell

1:31

you a little bit about

1:33

Chip. Chip has disrupted the

1:36

hospitality business not once, but

1:38

twice as the founder of

1:41

Joie To Leave Hospitality the

1:43

second largest operator of boutique

1:45

hotels in the United States,

1:48

and then as Air Bnb,

1:50

his head of Global Hospitality

1:53

and Strategy where he was

1:55

named of the modern elder

1:57

on the staff someone. The

2:00

only wise? as curious.

2:02

in January, twenty eight

2:05

teams ship cofounded the

2:07

Modern Elder Academy, which

2:09

is the world's first

2:12

midlife wisdom. School they.

2:14

Have one of their retreat centers

2:17

in Baja California and then a

2:19

new center opening this year in

2:21

Santa Fe, New Mexico. Ship.

2:24

Is. A New York Times bestselling

2:26

author of Southern books and

2:29

a new book it's called

2:31

Learning to Love Midlife. Twelve.

2:34

Reasons why. Life gets

2:36

better with age. Chip.

2:39

Welcome. Oh

2:42

Tammy. Thank you I'm

2:44

it's good to be here. I'm realizing that

2:46

Iraqis during out the window here in San

2:49

Francisco where it's during dark now. Service sir.

2:51

my ah, my image may just get darker

2:53

over the course of the next hour, but

2:55

of other than that, I'm feeling relatively late.

2:58

Yeah. Even on going through a lot of

3:00

different changes and I said no. We're

3:03

going to talk about that. We're going. Talk about your new

3:05

book. Learning. To love mid lies

3:07

and this capacity. That. You

3:09

have and in ever since

3:11

I've known you Tip: I've

3:14

seen this and new it's

3:16

It's almost like this power

3:18

of regeneration, power of renewal.

3:20

You go through some kind

3:22

of i'll just call it

3:24

in plain english: Total System

3:26

Meltdown or. Somebody might say

3:28

sauce. A clusterfuck or yeah you

3:30

could call. It that like something

3:32

like that, like oh my God

3:35

Suge destruction of your life form

3:37

as it was. And then this

3:39

is the miracle art. Something new

3:42

and brilliant and fabulous and

3:44

unbelievable and generative. Unhelpful comes forward.

3:46

And that's why I want to

3:49

learn more about what you've come

3:51

to know, about, that pattern in

3:53

your life and the capacity. The.

3:56

Capacity of regeneration. it's

3:58

interesting you said at the is my

4:01

very first hotel as a boutique

4:03

hotelier, I called this pay

4:05

by the arm hotel that I was turning into a

4:08

rock and roll hotel that when now pay, you know,

4:10

now you pay by the night. It

4:12

was called the Phoenix. And it's

4:14

a well known rock and roll hotel here in San

4:17

Francisco and the Phoenix rises

4:19

from its own ashes and I'm a

4:21

Scorpio and Scorpio has sort of a

4:23

life death kind of thing

4:25

going on. So yeah, it's sort of woven into

4:27

my certainly into my history

4:30

in this lifetime, but I have

4:32

a feeling it's coming from past lives to the

4:34

fact that I have

4:37

a tendency to have to

4:41

manifest, you know, a transformation in my life

4:43

and often in the truck work in a

4:45

transformation, you have to go through something that

4:47

I. I

4:51

want to talk about, we'll just call

4:53

it the Phoenix phenomenon. And I

4:56

want to talk about it because I

4:58

think a lot of times when we're

5:00

in the death throes, even

5:02

though we've heard about it, we think, well, that

5:04

renewal that rising again of the Phoenix,

5:07

that might happen for somebody else. But

5:09

you know, at this moment, I don't

5:11

think it's going to happen for me.

5:13

Like I'm out, it's not happening for

5:16

me. And I want to help our

5:19

listeners and I want to learn

5:21

more about how we

5:23

activate that renewal capacity

5:25

when we can't see it. Yeah.

5:29

Well, I think that one

5:31

of the things I've learned in the last few years since

5:34

taking a real fascination with midlife is

5:37

the idea of the three stages of

5:40

any transition you have in your life.

5:42

And we call it the anatomy of

5:44

a transition at our modern Elder Academy,

5:46

MEA. And this

5:48

is based upon rites of passage

5:51

initiation work, Joseph Campbell's work,

5:53

William Bridges, who wrote the

5:55

transitions work. So there's

5:58

these three stages of transition. If you know that these

6:00

three stages, it does give you some comfort

6:03

that there are coping mechanisms

6:05

through the hardest parts. So

6:08

the first stage of any transition that you're going

6:10

through, whether that's a divorce, changing

6:13

your job, you know, deciding

6:15

to live in a new place, going

6:17

through a health diagnosis that's difficult, is

6:20

you need to end something. And you

6:22

need to actually then ideally ritualize that, whether that's

6:24

ritualizing that with other people or by yourself, being

6:27

able to say that period of my life has

6:29

ended, and I'm ready to move to the

6:31

next stage. And you know,

6:33

for the for the caterpillar that's, you know,

6:36

getting ready to plump up as it does for

6:38

the last two weeks before it actually spends its

6:40

chrysalis. And then it goes into

6:42

the chrysalis and the chrysalis stage of life,

6:44

what I like to now call the midlife

6:46

chrysalis, not the midlife crisis, is

6:49

that stage where it's messy middle, it's messy.

6:52

And in that goo, it can be

6:54

feel dark and solitary and confining.

6:58

And yet that's where the metamorphosis happens, the

7:00

transformation happens. So what's the

7:02

coping mechanism in that second stage of

7:05

like letting go of something, and

7:08

then going in there and the two things that you really

7:10

need during that time, or social support,

7:13

no doubt, we need that for all the

7:15

phases of the transition. But especially

7:17

when you're in the messy middle, because in

7:19

the messy middle, it liquefies.

7:22

And so you can feel very

7:24

awkward because of the fact that the the

7:26

ground that you have tread on in the

7:28

past is no longer there. And so number

7:32

one is social support helps you to, you

7:35

know, have objectivity, but also have love. And

7:38

then the other coping mechanism for that

7:40

second stage is seeing

7:42

the throughline of your life, being

7:45

able to see the themes and to understand what's going to

7:47

happen on the other side of this picture

7:49

Frank will famously wrote in Man's Search for

7:51

Meaning about the people who did not make

7:53

it to the concentration camp. And it was

7:55

often those who had actually lost a hope

7:57

and a sense of meaning from this terrible

7:59

experience of being in a concentration camp. And

8:02

so, and, you know, when

8:05

the kids in Thailand, the

8:07

soccer players who got stuck in the cave in

8:09

the back of the cavern, when the rains came

8:12

up, and it's been made into a movie, what

8:16

people, what the people who saved them had

8:18

to do was take a rope and

8:20

take it through the cavern through all the water that had

8:22

come up because of the rain. And

8:25

it's like that rope that you can understand

8:27

the through line of your life, the thread

8:29

that helps you to see where

8:32

you are and where you might be going. That's

8:35

actually how they got the boys out of the cavern is

8:37

having that rope, we need that rope in our own life. And

8:40

then the third stage of any transition is the

8:42

beginning, something new. So it's like, okay, the caterpillar

8:44

becomes a chrysalis, then it comes a butterfly. But

8:47

when a butterfly actually emerges from the chrysalis,

8:49

it is, it's got wet wings. And

8:52

it's often on the ground before it's flying. And

8:54

so a growth mindset, a willingness

8:56

to be a beginner, a willingness to

8:59

look awkward, a willingness to laugh at

9:02

ourselves, because a growth mindset versus a

9:04

fixed mindset means we're more focused

9:06

on improving ourselves than proving ourselves. And we're

9:08

not trying to win, we're trying to learn.

9:10

So long story short is

9:12

that's the framework I use in

9:15

my own life. And it's

9:17

the framework we choose to use

9:20

at MEA when people come focusing

9:23

on how they navigate their midlife transitions.

9:26

Now you introduced this phrase in learning

9:28

to love midlife, the TQ, transitional

9:30

IQ. Now that's very

9:34

clever. I mean, I guess we can have

9:36

all kinds of intelligences. So you're describing here,

9:40

what the components are of

9:42

having a high TQ. So

9:45

the reason and the reason we need a

9:47

high TQ, Tammy is because, you know, both

9:49

of my grandparents, both my grandfathers had the

9:51

same job for 40 years. I mean, that's

9:53

crazy that both of them had not the

9:55

same job, they didn't have it. They had

9:57

their own jobs, but they had their own

9:59

jobs. for 40 years. One lived

10:01

in Denver, one lived in Southern California. But

10:05

if you look back at the 1960s, the average person

10:07

had, in the course of their lifetime, three jobs.

10:10

Today we have 12 or 13. We

10:12

also live in a world in which the world is

10:15

changing faster and faster. So

10:17

the idea that somehow we don't

10:19

have to get smart or wise

10:22

around mastering transitions is silly. We

10:25

really need to understand how

10:27

do you build your transitional

10:29

intelligence in order to handle

10:31

both the changes you make

10:33

in your life volitionally, and

10:36

then the ones that are thrust upon you. And

10:39

so, especially for people in midlife, because

10:43

one of the challenges we have often as we go

10:45

into our 40s and 50s and 60s, we get calcified a

10:47

little bit and we get stuck. We

10:49

feel stuck based upon the mindset we

10:51

have, our expectations of what we wanted

10:53

in our lives, and we

10:56

got to free ourselves from those things. Brittany

10:58

Brown talks about midlife being a time

11:00

of unraveling. And I asked her, like, Brittany,

11:02

that's not—I don't want to unravel. That

11:04

sounds like you're losing your mind. She said, Chip, have

11:07

you ever looked in the dictionary under the word, and

11:11

something that's unraveled is so tightly

11:13

wound that you can't get it

11:15

undone. And that's also how we feel in the middle of our

11:17

lives. And

11:19

so to unravel means you create some

11:21

spaciousness, and in

11:24

so doing, you create the opportunity for

11:28

something, some, you know, some new growth to

11:30

happen. And you have

11:33

to have some faith in this process, too, because if

11:35

you don't have the faith, then it's going to be

11:37

really hard to go into that crystallist in the first

11:39

place. I want

11:41

to talk a little bit about each of

11:44

the three phases of transition, the first one,

11:46

because, you know, okay, this is over. And,

11:49

you know, what I realized recently in a

11:51

transition that I'm going through is somebody

11:53

said to me, you know, you haven't fully

11:55

accepted, Tammy, that

11:57

your reign is over. in

12:00

this capacity, R-E-I-G-N, is

12:03

over. It's over, period. It's

12:05

over, period. And I stared

12:07

at that sentence for a long time, and I

12:10

was like, no, I haven't fully accepted that. No,

12:12

I have not. And I thought,

12:14

you know, it sounds a lot easier sometimes

12:16

to say something's over, but all of

12:18

us, 100% of us isn't with that. I'm

12:22

wondering what you've learned about that. How do

12:25

we get all of us to admit this

12:27

XYZ thing? It's over. It's over.

12:30

Well, it's so,

12:34

I'll tell you what I did when we took out

12:37

my prostate, you know, six months, seven months ago. I

12:40

had a prostate ritual, a prostate

12:42

removal ritual, with a few friends.

12:45

And probably because I was lamenting

12:47

the fact that I won't go into

12:49

the gory details of what a prostate does, but there were

12:51

a lot of bodily functions I was not going to have

12:53

anymore. And

12:57

so rather than sort of be

12:59

comatose to it, instead

13:01

I had a dinner with some

13:03

friends, and we talked about the

13:06

value of our prostate in our lives. And I think

13:08

that sounds ridiculous, but I think women do it when

13:10

it comes to menopause more and more. I mean, this

13:12

is not true five or 10 years ago as much

13:14

as it is today. When

13:17

I joined Airbnb as

13:19

after having been 24 years the CEO of

13:21

my own company, the first 20 months

13:24

were agony for me because I was reporting

13:26

to Brian Chesky, the CEO, who was 31 and

13:28

I was 52, but he was my

13:30

mentee. I was mentoring him on being a CEO.

13:34

And so for me, it was really

13:36

hard to let go of being the

13:38

person in charge of the company, even

13:41

though it wasn't my company that I'd started. But

13:44

it was really hard, so I had to have a ritual. I had to

13:46

have a dinner again with a few friends to

13:48

say, like, OK. We

13:50

did a little exercise where each

13:52

of us wanted to let go of something. For

13:55

me, it was letting go of having to be

13:57

the CEO, having to be the sage on the

13:59

stage. and instead learning how to do the guide on

14:01

the side. So what I

14:03

did is I wrote a bunch of things on a piece of

14:05

paper. We talked about it and then I wrote on a piece

14:08

of paper some of

14:10

the qualities, character qualities that I needed to

14:12

let go of if I was gonna be

14:14

successful at Airbnb. And

14:17

then I also had to think about what I will replace

14:19

those with. So for example, I am

14:22

no longer the control addict. I

14:24

no longer am the person who's gonna get all

14:27

of the press around the company. I

14:29

no longer am gonna be the

14:32

one who is managing meetings. And

14:35

so as I started to get clear about the things that

14:37

I used to do that I now was gonna give up

14:40

and I put them on a piece of paper and

14:42

then each of us said, here's the things we're letting

14:44

go of. And then we lit the pieces of paper

14:47

on fire in a little bowl. And

14:51

then I actually said, here's what I'm replacing it with. That

14:55

process was very valuable

14:58

because it allowed me, a ritual

15:00

allows you to see that

15:03

transitional era, that period

15:05

of time that

15:07

is before and after. And

15:09

so from that point forward, I can't say I

15:12

was perfect at all those things, but I

15:14

actually now had embraced them and I had

15:16

spoken them out loud to other people. So

15:20

you don't have to do the exact ritual, I'm

15:22

talking about it. We at MEA call this the

15:24

great midlife edit and we think you need to

15:26

do it maybe once a year. It's better than

15:28

resolutions because at the end of the

15:30

year, like let go, let go, the end of

15:32

the year, let go of whatever it is that

15:35

you're just ready to let go of because don't

15:38

take that into the new year. Why

15:40

do you call it the midlife edit? You're

15:42

editing certain things out, are you putting things

15:44

in as well? Yeah, so

15:46

the great midlife edit came from

15:50

some of my scholarship with sitting Carl

15:52

Jung, but also long deep

15:55

conversations with Richard Rohr. So

15:57

Richard is an MEA alum, amazingly.

16:00

at 78, he came to MEA and he's

16:02

on our faculty. He's teaching at our Santa

16:04

Fe campus in July. And

16:07

both of them said that the first half of your life

16:09

is about accumulating and the second half of your

16:11

life is about editing. And one

16:13

of the key talents that we need

16:15

to learn in midlife is how

16:17

to start letting go of the

16:19

things that are no longer serving us, whether they're

16:21

mindsets, identities, roles,

16:25

you know, a

16:28

narrative, a story that isn't serving you anymore.

16:31

To be able to let go of those and just move

16:33

on gives you the space for new things to come in.

16:37

And so I don't think just letting it

16:39

go alone is enough. I think actually then you sort of

16:41

say like, I'm gonna replace it with such and such and

16:43

here's the habits I'm gonna put in place to do that.

16:46

But the reason that I

16:48

think why it's important in midlife is because that's

16:51

sort of the era where you actually feel overburdened.

16:54

And it's, you know, 40s, 50s, 60s, especially.

16:56

You sort of like, you know, and

17:00

no one says a 25 year old's

17:02

downsizing. Meaning that you do say

17:04

a 55 year old or a 65 year old's downsizing. And

17:06

there's a lot of reasons for that. In

17:10

your blog, The Wisdom, well, you

17:13

quote Father Richard Ruhr and you

17:15

wrote this piece that really got

17:17

my attention about the

17:19

dark night of the ego,

17:21

not the dark night of the soul. And

17:24

I'm bringing that forward here in terms of this

17:27

first phase of

17:29

our transitional wisdom

17:31

of being able to say, okay,

17:34

these things are ending. And often,

17:36

you know, what's ending is some ego clinging

17:40

of some kind, some ego framework, some

17:43

ego identification. And I love this, the

17:45

dark night of the ego. Cause so

17:47

many times I've heard people say, you know, I'm going through a

17:49

dark night of the soul and I've had the

17:51

thought, oh no, actually they're just going through

17:53

a dark night of the ego. They're having

17:56

to let go of some of their, you

17:58

know, big cool accomplishments. accomplishment

18:00

stuff or claims to fame or

18:03

whatever things that looked good. They're

18:05

basically you know in front of

18:07

other people things aren't looking so

18:10

great. This isn't really you

18:12

know what what St. John's of the Cross was talking

18:14

about at a soul level bear

18:17

naked it's something else and I was curious

18:19

how you came up with that dark night of the ego I

18:22

thought it was really brilliant ship. Oh

18:24

thanks. I looked at

18:26

my own life. I looked at the times in my life where

18:28

I felt things were

18:30

the darkest and at times

18:32

it was circumstantial. At times

18:34

it was yeah this shit's happening to

18:37

me. But

18:40

a lot of it was really my perspective on it and

18:43

it had a lot to do with the

18:45

things I was attached to and especially

18:48

my ego was attached to these things.

18:51

You know I think that gosh who was

18:53

it? I can't remember the person's name right

18:55

now but they said like

18:57

you know the key things

19:00

the AM statements that define us up

19:02

through midlife often is I am what I

19:04

do. I am what

19:06

I own. I am what others say

19:08

about me and I am what I control and

19:11

these are I AM statements that are very egocentric

19:15

and I believe that what's really happening

19:17

and Richard Rohr again speaks to this

19:19

as well is that

19:21

there's a primary operating system change

19:23

that's happening around midlife. You're

19:26

going from the ego to the soul and

19:29

the way I look at it and

19:31

so but no one gives us the you know the

19:33

new operating instructions for the

19:35

soul and so we're

19:37

sort of attached to the ego and the metaphor

19:40

that I use now to think of this

19:42

is that you know

19:44

it's like dancing in a sort of traditional

19:47

hetero kind of way where the male is

19:49

leading the dance and through most of

19:51

our first half of our life that

19:54

is the ego and the soul is

19:56

really sort of following in

19:59

heels and and going backwards. And

20:01

then it's around midlife that all of a

20:04

sudden, something starts to

20:06

stir inside of us. And

20:08

we don't have words for it often, but having

20:10

had 4,000 people from 47 countries come to MEA

20:14

and being there to observe and

20:17

be an enlightened witness of them over the course of a

20:19

week-long workshop, I have seen it

20:22

over and over again. And what is going

20:24

on is that the soul is starting

20:26

to lead the dance. And

20:28

the ego is a little awkward. The ego

20:30

is not used to being the one in

20:32

heels and going backwards. But

20:34

over time, if the

20:36

ego can learn to laugh at itself and the

20:38

soul can actually use the

20:41

magic of its connection to something much

20:43

bigger than itself, miraculous

20:45

things start to happen. Now, that sounds very

20:47

woo-woo, but I will say that the research

20:49

on this, on a social science basis, in

20:52

terms of the kinds of transformations people

20:54

go through, often in their 40s, 50s, and 60s,

20:58

around ego to soul,

21:00

there's a lot of data on it and

21:03

research work on it. And I just

21:05

love it because it described my life.

21:08

I didn't have language for this. I

21:11

was going through a very difficult time, a dark night

21:13

of the ego in my late 40s. Everything

21:15

that could go wrong was going wrong. My

21:19

long-term relationship was ending up by my choice. My

21:21

African-American defenseless son, who

21:24

was an adult, was going to prison wrongfully. My

21:27

company was running out of money during the Great Recession. I

21:30

didn't want to be CEO of that company anymore after

21:32

running it for 22 years. I

21:34

lost five friends to suicide, all of them men,

21:36

age 42 to 52. I

21:39

had suicide ideation myself. And

21:41

then, I had a flat line experience. At

21:45

47, I had a broken ankle and

21:48

a bacterial infection in my

21:51

leg, and I was on

21:53

a strong antibiotic. And quite frankly, I had an

21:55

allergic reaction to the antibiotic. And after

21:58

giving a speech on stage, signing books. I

22:00

slumped in my chair. And by

22:02

the time the paramedics showed up to put me

22:05

on a gurney and take me to the hospital,

22:07

that was the first of nine times in 90

22:09

minutes that my heart stopped. So they

22:11

had to get the paddles out. And they paddled

22:14

me back to life. So

22:17

do you have to actually die like

22:20

I did and come back to life, an

22:22

NDE, near death experience, to

22:24

be able to make a transition

22:26

or a transformation in your life? Of course not.

22:29

But that one shocked me back into

22:31

life. It was the classic hotelier's wake

22:33

up call, because I didn't want to be

22:35

a hotelier anymore. And so

22:39

one of the good things

22:41

about having an experience that

22:45

puts you face to face with death is

22:47

it radically shifts

22:50

your thinking about, how do you want to live your life?

22:52

So death is an amazing organizing principle for life.

22:56

And there's a bunch

22:58

of work by Laura Carstensen from the Stanford

23:00

Center on Longevity that has shown

23:02

that when people have a shorter amount of time left

23:04

to live, surprisingly, on

23:07

average, they feel happier.

23:09

And part of the reason they feel happier is because they're more in

23:11

the moment, and they're not focused on the

23:14

future. And

23:16

the future allows us to mind trip.

23:19

And so for

23:21

me, I all of a sudden went from,

23:24

oh, future features, just like, oh,

23:26

no, I'm in this moment. Every single day

23:28

matters to me. And it was

23:30

in that kind of thinking that

23:33

allowed me to wrestle control. I

23:35

don't want to say wrestle, but to

23:37

surrender control from my ego to

23:40

the soul, because I really felt

23:43

like my ego had been not

23:45

dancing very well, and

23:48

not leading very well. And yeah,

23:52

does my ego still want to take over at times?

23:54

Of course. I have a book coming out

23:56

on Tuesday, and I want to do really well. well

24:00

and etc. I mean those things still come up but I

24:02

can laugh at it now and

24:04

I don't allow myself to get

24:07

hijacked by my

24:10

ego like I used to or not

24:12

as much. Not as much. It still happens but

24:15

not as much. A couple questions here. When

24:17

I imagine that a figure

24:19

dancing backwards in high heels.

24:23

Did you ever do that, Cami? I wanted to

24:25

understand. Well I've worn high heels like

24:27

on Halloween like once or something. I

24:30

kicked them off. I would say metaphorically

24:33

right here with you. I am

24:36

definitely dancing backwards in high heels

24:38

and my question is what happens when

24:40

it comes up and you go I'm

24:42

not sure everything's going to be okay

24:45

actually. I'm not sure it's going to be

24:47

okay. In fact I think I could fall.

24:49

I can't dance very well like this. I'm

24:52

not sure it's going to be okay. Well

24:55

I think then the question is like what's the

24:57

biggest fear? Like you know what are the top

24:59

three fears that are you know

25:01

are you going to die? Are you going

25:03

to lose your reputation? Are you going to

25:05

have a financial meltdown? Are you going to

25:07

lose a best friend? You know

25:10

I think you know one of the things I've learned I

25:12

wrote a book called Emotional Equations and one

25:14

of the key things around anxiety is

25:16

that it really comes from what we don't

25:19

know and what we can't control. And

25:21

so you know bringing to the forefront

25:23

what it is that we have a

25:25

fear is really an important piece of

25:27

like settling the anxiety. So yeah I

25:29

guess what I would say is so

25:33

let me use an example. So MEA

25:35

as a campus in Baja we are opening a

25:37

campus in Santa Fe as you mentioned. A

25:40

2600 acre regenerative horse

25:42

ranch with two retreat centers on it.

25:44

We have one retreat center down in Baja. Now we're

25:46

going to have two in on this

25:48

ranch and then we have another retreat center in

25:50

the town of Santa Fe an old Catholic retreat

25:53

center and seminary next to St. John's College. So

25:55

we're growing big time and thank God there's

25:58

a lot of demand for midlife. wisdom

26:00

schools today. And we're the first one, but

26:02

like, this is a thing. But Tammy, I

26:05

will tell you, like, when I

26:08

had my prostate taken out in June and

26:10

I found out, okay, you know,

26:12

I have to stay on this hormone depletion

26:15

therapy. So I have 1% of my normal

26:17

testosterone, and I'm gonna have to do

26:19

seven and a half weeks of radiation, like before the book

26:21

comes out, before the ranch opens. I was

26:24

in the ego freak out mode of like, oh

26:26

my God, I'm gonna have the last career I

26:28

ever have in my life, I'm gonna be a

26:30

public failure, and I'm gonna lose

26:32

all my money and, and,

26:35

and etc. And

26:38

I gave

26:40

it I gave the ego some time to

26:42

reflect on that, because it's like, okay, what

26:44

are you fearful about? And then

26:46

I really stepped in and just said, like, so how

26:48

can I reach out for help? My

26:51

archetype that defines me as my

26:53

hero, and the hero has to go

26:55

out and fucking do it by themselves.

26:58

And that rugged individualist that was sort of,

27:00

you know, drummed into me by my father,

27:02

my marine captain father, and I

27:04

came to realize like, my God, I don't have to do this by myself.

27:07

I can be a little bit more vulnerable in

27:09

my blog about what I'm going to, I

27:11

can be more open about

27:13

saying, I need your help. And

27:16

I can build relationships with people who

27:19

are going to step up. And

27:22

they just need a little bit of help on the front end. And

27:25

I feel so much better now. My gosh,

27:27

I was really in a dark place six

27:29

months ago. But if I look back on

27:31

it, it was really very much ego identified.

27:33

And it was identified based upon an archetype

27:35

of how I show up in the world.

27:37

And I felt like I didn't have the

27:39

energy to show up in the way I

27:41

have historically shown up. So that was the

27:43

hero is something that I've had to dose

27:46

down, not get rid of me. It's

27:48

like I can be the hero occasionally. But I

27:50

don't have to have that be my primary archetype,

27:53

I can be the gesture occasionally, etc.

27:55

I think you're

27:57

making such a good point, because I think

27:59

picking up the phone and calling people

28:01

that we know love us. They love us

28:04

for who we are. But we're going to

28:06

tell them, you know, I know you think

28:08

I'm hugely successful in this way or

28:10

that way, but the truth is this

28:12

thing, it might not be working as well

28:14

as, you know, I thought it was working

28:16

and you guys all thought it was working

28:18

and I mean, I don't know, maybe that

28:20

could be for some people about their

28:22

relationship or something in their career or

28:24

something about their money or something like

28:26

that. Now we're actually sharing

28:29

with our friends, you

28:31

know, the real struggle and it's like, it's

28:33

okay for you to know me as

28:36

this person who's really struggling,

28:38

even though you thought so highly about

28:40

this. Yes. And I'm

28:42

willing to sacrifice that for you to know

28:44

me. Yeah, and it's beautiful

28:46

because you opened the door for them to

28:48

be vulnerable too. And I've been doing a

28:50

little bit of work with Dick Schwartz who

28:52

I know works with you and his parts

28:54

work, IFS. He's actually on faculty,

28:56

he'll be teaching in Santa

28:59

Fe, spring. And

29:01

I came to see that I have these, I

29:04

have many parts, but the three I'll just talk about

29:06

for a second are, I have Mr. Ambition and

29:09

Mr. Ambition shows up because that's

29:11

really, when I came out as a gay man at

29:13

22, the number one thing my dad

29:15

worried about, other than me getting

29:17

AIDS, which I came out in 1983 at

29:20

a time, I was like, wow, not good timing, was

29:23

that I would want to be a

29:26

hairdresser or a flower designer. I mean,

29:28

like I was the oldest child in

29:30

the family, I was the only son and

29:32

I'm Stephen Townsend Connelly Jr. Chip

29:34

off the old block. So my dad's biggest

29:37

regret was that I was gonna be ambitious. So there's

29:39

a part of me that's just like, the part

29:41

of me is the ambitious one. And

29:44

I get a lot of love and support for

29:46

that. I am an admiration

29:48

addict because

29:51

I want you to love me for my ambition. Then

29:55

I have the creative part, the creative part

29:57

and creativity really.

30:00

It's something that was very, I

30:03

was charmed by my creativity when

30:06

I was young. I

30:08

was very much a loner and a bit

30:11

of a shy introvert. And

30:14

I really appreciated that. And yet then

30:16

as I moved into adolescence, I got

30:18

this feeling like, okay, that creative

30:20

thing like maybe people think I'm gay if

30:22

they see me as an artist. And so

30:25

I got to be careful with that creative

30:27

thing. But as I came out

30:29

at 22 and then got into boutique hotels and

30:31

did others and started right and oh

30:33

my God, those two together, ambition

30:36

and creativity, like, whoa, that's

30:38

a potent combination. But

30:40

it can be a potent combination still full of ego. And

30:44

then there's this other part. And

30:46

I call this other part the little one. And

30:49

the little one is just

30:51

that little boy that was

30:53

didn't feel particular,

30:55

I felt timid, didn't feel particularly

30:57

lovable. And

31:04

that little one has quite frankly, I mean,

31:07

has been neglected my

31:09

whole adult life. And

31:12

so learning how to take these

31:14

three, Mr. Ambition, creativity and the

31:16

little one and give

31:19

each one of them a voice and

31:21

to see that maybe there's some collaborations that can go on

31:24

amongst them. And so

31:26

for me, in my process of the

31:29

last year, freaking out about what was on

31:31

my plate at the same time I was

31:33

dealing with a major health issue, stage three

31:35

cancer, I had to let the

31:37

little one speak more. And so the

31:39

little one ended up speaking through me in my

31:42

vulnerable Wisdom Well Daily blog posts.

31:45

And I've got one tomorrow for people who are

31:47

listening, I you know, go to me a website

31:49

or me a wisdom.com or chip conley.com. Subscribe

31:52

is free and take a look

31:55

at my blog post tomorrow, because tomorrow's my last

31:57

day of radiation. And So the

31:59

blog post tomorrow is. In his cancer, a

32:01

blessing or a curse am. And so

32:03

I. Am. Is freaky

32:05

my parents and for eighty six night

32:07

chip you are way too much information.

32:10

But. I guess there's a part of me

32:12

that says like you know is an ad

32:15

in my childhood spin able to express myself.

32:18

In this way the little one had a

32:20

voice in i grew up in the family

32:22

were in own. Children are seen

32:24

but not heard. And that

32:26

was sort of our lives. my eyes and

32:28

tell. You. Know I a.

32:31

Became. Much more. Extroverted

32:35

in my teen years. I'm

32:38

sorry I was Longford. Know. I'm I'm

32:40

I'm personally I'm very happy to

32:42

the name these parts of you

32:44

that of course from the outside

32:46

I could see them and from

32:48

the outside even our friends and

32:50

everyone. And we think we're suddenly being

32:52

very concessional. What they know what's going on.

32:55

I don't feel like we think for being

32:57

so you know vulnerable to call and share

32:59

what you know and say I I really

33:01

need social support right now it up for

33:04

whatever is going on. People people know

33:06

it anyway. they can search smell it

33:08

which is. I will do your

33:10

part, sway your part. Wow wow wow Okay, we're

33:12

not going there right now. I'm from or Kansas.

33:14

Or well, I'm in snow to be honest,

33:16

and I'm sorting it out and I'm in

33:18

a huge. Transition and I

33:20

think it would just take too

33:22

long in our conversation or just

33:25

for me. And it's not as

33:27

tidy as the way you are

33:29

presented in, but I'm definitely working

33:31

through. Ceiling good when

33:33

I'm in control. And how do

33:35

I feel good when I'm not

33:37

in control? Which is why I

33:40

brought forward the. High heeled

33:42

see male. Figure dancing, bachelors and

33:44

you said, well, you have to admit

33:46

to yourself what it is you're afraid

33:49

of. Are you afraid of? Ah, not

33:51

be an alliance I think was the

33:53

first when used to dying. And

33:55

I thought this is one of the things I

33:57

want to learn more about. From. check

33:59

because you had your flat line experience, which

34:02

you shared with us, and

34:04

now you're going through treatment

34:06

for stage three cancer for

34:09

a difficult kind of cancer

34:11

diagnosis. And I'm curious

34:14

how you're finding your

34:16

way to dance backwards in high

34:18

heels with your current health situation.

34:21

So, you know, I'll take it.

34:24

I don't have the blog post for tomorrow right up

34:26

in front of me, but if

34:28

I see cancer as a teacher, and

34:30

I don't have to be the gladiator, the hero who's going to

34:32

kill cancer, but instead cancer

34:35

is in my life for

34:37

a reason. And the reason it's in my life is

34:39

because I'm supposed to learn something from this experience. You

34:43

know, we run a wisdom school.

34:45

So I'm a big believer in

34:48

understanding what wisdom is. And I believe

34:50

that wisdom is our painful life

34:52

lessons that are the raw material

34:54

for our future wisdom. So what

34:57

I look at with cancer is being

35:00

out of control is

35:02

how am I supposed to learn from cancer? What

35:05

are the key lessons? And some of my lessons have been

35:07

things like, I

35:10

need, I'm a pretty multi-dimensional person

35:12

in terms of my interests. I'm

35:15

not just like Mr. Workaholic. I

35:17

work workaholic hours though, and

35:19

I have a calling, but

35:22

I want to

35:24

reinvest in the multi-dimensionality of

35:26

my life. And

35:29

so that's one lesson. Another lesson was like,

35:31

you know, my

35:33

body is a rental vehicle, but, and

35:36

over time, I care more about the inside of that

35:38

rental vehicle than the outside, but I

35:41

am in harmony with my body. My

35:43

body's my best friend, and it is the rental vehicle that's

35:45

going to take me all the way to my death. And

35:48

so how am I treating my body a little

35:51

bit better? Of course, that's a natural

35:53

thing that would come from a cancer diagnosis. Another

35:56

one is learning how to ask for

35:58

help. And so, cancer.

36:01

It's interesting that Lloyd Austin, the Secretary of

36:04

Defense, had a

36:06

prostate cancer diagnosis, didn't tell his

36:08

bosses, and this is not political,

36:10

this is just sort of interesting

36:12

socially. And he

36:15

didn't, not only did he not tell his

36:17

bosses, but then he had this, he had

36:19

some side effects of the radical

36:22

prostatectomy that led to

36:24

him being in intensive care in the

36:26

hospital, and he

36:30

wasn't asking for help. And

36:32

he might, and given

36:36

the position he's in, maybe he

36:38

didn't feel comfortable being public about

36:40

it, but man, our shame that

36:42

we have, and things

36:44

around sexuality, and

36:46

whether it's breast cancer or prostate cancer or

36:49

ovarian cancer, whatever it is, these

36:51

are in some cases cancers that

36:54

strike at the root of our

36:57

gender relationship. And

37:00

so, you know, when you have

37:02

your prostate taken out, oh my God, there's all kinds of things

37:04

that, you know, the side effects of that and

37:07

I, all I can say is for myself, to

37:10

be able to be open to all

37:13

of the emotions that I'm going to feel of

37:16

having only 1% of my testosterone that I used to

37:18

have, I can come back once

37:20

I stop the ADT, but

37:22

to not have some of the functioning that

37:24

I used to have. Yeah, you know, these

37:27

are things that I've had to just say, how

37:30

am I supposed to transition my romantic life?

37:34

How am I supposed to train, unfortunately I'm in

37:36

a long term relationship, but how

37:38

am I supposed to transition my

37:41

perspective on masculinity? And

37:45

it's been beautiful and so for me cancer has

37:47

been a teacher, I am

37:49

ready to graduate from this

37:52

school. Let

37:55

me ask one clarifying question, when you said,

37:57

you know, my body is my best friend.

38:00

Because I can imagine that when people

38:02

have any kind of disease,

38:05

diagnosis of something like that, there's

38:07

a feeling that your body has

38:09

quote unquote betrayed you, not it's

38:11

my best friend. Or you

38:13

or you have betrayed your body. That

38:16

is where I was, you know, Tim, you're so good at this.

38:18

That's exactly where I was. My diagnosis

38:21

got me to a place of saying,

38:23

my body's betraying me or then, oh,

38:25

I've betrayed my body as

38:27

if they are, you know,

38:29

two different, you know, they're two different

38:31

emphases. And so to

38:33

get to a place where I say like, I am

38:35

at one with my body and my body and I

38:37

have a beautiful friendship relationships

38:40

in such ways that I am

38:43

trying to be thoughtful about how I treat

38:45

my body, whether that's, you

38:48

know, drinking far less or at

38:50

times not at all, whether

38:53

that's the kind of food I put in my body, whether

38:55

that's the, you know, having

38:57

a regimen of acupuncture and massage and,

39:00

and, you know, I don't run as

39:02

much as I used to. But I

39:04

mean, I just really avid walker.

39:07

And so I and

39:09

swimming and just, there's all

39:11

of that. But the one thing I want to

39:13

say sort of as an adjunct to this is we are

39:15

we are living in a culture right now that

39:17

has the tech bros from

39:19

Silicon Valley, all focused

39:22

on biohacking as if somehow

39:24

our body, if

39:26

we, if we just do the right

39:28

things to it like a machine, it

39:30

will live forever. And the thing

39:32

that's so fascinating about this, Tammy, is that the

39:35

number one variable for living

39:37

a longer, happier, healthier life based

39:39

upon Blue Zone's research, Harvard, Stanford,

39:43

etc., is how invested are you in your social

39:45

relationships in your 40s, 50s, and 60s? The

39:48

people who are living late to 80s, 90s,

39:50

and 100s are the ones

39:52

who actually invested in their social relationships in their

39:54

midlife. And so, you know, illness

39:57

starts with the letter I and wellness starts with the letter

39:59

we. letters we and I

40:01

deeply believe that that's another

40:03

part of the healing process for me is

40:05

that sense of social

40:08

wellness and allowing myself to be

40:10

vulnerable enough and out of control

40:12

to friends who are there to

40:15

be my safety net and that's not something

40:17

easy for me to do that is for

40:19

sure. I am I'm there for other people

40:21

in their way when they're going through their

40:23

stuff but it was for me I like

40:26

want to go into my little chrysalis in

40:28

my little cocoon and hide away and I'm doing

40:30

I've done that this time too like you know I'm

40:33

but I am just trying to

40:36

break new ground and be that much

40:39

more open to just saying will you just

40:41

come and take a nap with me which

40:44

is what I did yesterday with someone because

40:46

I didn't really want to talk to them but

40:49

I actually wanted to just be in

40:51

in bed taking a nap with someone

40:53

so beautiful

40:55

I love that chip now you you

40:59

shared with me these three phases

41:02

of a transition and we talked

41:04

about ending and now we're in

41:06

the goo for me

41:08

in the conversation the gooey part

41:10

and I think you've done a

41:12

terrific job really of explaining the

41:14

importance and the research behind social

41:17

support and then you said

41:19

the second factor in getting through the

41:21

goo is seeing

41:23

the through line in our life and

41:25

you've shared a little bit about by

41:28

talking about your own parts finding

41:30

the through line and then you asked

41:32

me and I was a little bit

41:35

like you know because I'm I'm finding the

41:37

through line chip I'm finding it what kinds

41:39

of questions help people when

41:42

they're in the goo find the through

41:44

lines in their life so

41:47

let me tell a story first and

41:49

then we can maybe

41:51

go to some questions around that

41:54

so trying

41:58

to learn how to let go of

42:01

the way you've done things in the past. If

42:05

you're just letting go of it, but not actually replacing

42:07

it with something else, is like the classic person who's

42:10

retiring from something, but not to

42:12

something. And the problem for

42:14

people who retire from something and not to something is

42:17

they end up couch potatoes what's watching on

42:19

average in the US, 47 hours of

42:21

TV a week. So

42:24

that process of being

42:27

in transition is gotta be

42:29

yes letting go, but also welcoming

42:31

in. And what

42:33

I was able to do when I was at Airbnb, when

42:35

I knew that I couldn't be the CEO there, I didn't

42:37

wanna be the CEO, and I didn't wanna be competing with

42:39

Brian for that role, that's what he was doing, is

42:42

when I could finally see the through line of like, okay,

42:46

oh, you've called me

42:48

the modern elder here. That

42:50

was a gift. Someone who's as curious

42:52

as they are wise. My

42:56

role here is to learn how

42:58

to be a master mentor, and

43:00

to be a mentor and an intern, not

43:04

just the person with the

43:07

Yoda or Dumbledore or whomever, but

43:10

instead be the person who's learning as much as

43:12

he or she is teaching, and

43:15

wisdom dispenser and seeker. And so

43:19

when I can actually get to that place to

43:21

see the alchemy of curiosity and wisdom, that

43:23

lit me up. Because all

43:26

of a sudden, my role was not to have

43:28

my photo on the cover of Fortune magazine. My

43:31

role was to make sure that these three founders had their

43:33

photo on that magazine, and

43:35

that when they do their IPO, and

43:38

are ringing the bell, that they're

43:40

very successful. And Brian, over

43:42

three years after the IPO went live,

43:44

and during a very difficult time with

43:46

Brian Jeske, that

43:49

youngster who went to Rhode Island School of Design

43:51

and had no business background at all, he's

43:54

still running one of the largest

43:56

travel public companies in

43:58

the world. only

44:00

Fortune 500 CEO who has a creative

44:02

background. So I would just

44:06

start by saying, how do we look

44:09

for the thing that takes what

44:11

we have learned in our lives, and

44:14

allows it to have an evolution

44:16

into something new? And

44:19

so what are the questions we need to ask

44:22

to get there is, you know,

44:24

what clearly what is the

44:26

archetype or identity or role

44:29

that has defined us that is

44:31

no would not serve us moving

44:33

forward. And we have to get rid of that. We've talked about

44:35

that. But that's actually literally doing

44:37

a bit of a deeper dive of

44:40

like, what is it that's your

44:42

gift? You know, the purpose of

44:44

life is to find your gift, discover your gift,

44:46

the work of life is to develop it

44:48

and the meaning of life is to give it away. So

44:51

one of the exercises we do at me, a

44:54

is help people try to find their essence, like what's at

44:57

the gift. And it starts from

44:59

something that Peter Drucker did for companies, he

45:01

used to say the most important question any

45:03

organization leader can ask is what business are

45:05

we in and ask it five

45:07

times in a row, what the person who's

45:09

answering not being able to answer the

45:11

same way twice. So we

45:13

do that same exercise for people. And

45:16

we say, what master your gift? Can

45:18

you or do you offer? And

45:21

you can choose like if you want to say,

45:23

I like the word mastery. So what mastery can

45:26

you offer would be perspective and do

45:28

you offer be like right now. So

45:31

if you could be asked that same question five

45:33

times, what mastery

45:36

can you offer, Tammy

45:38

and then you would answer it. And

45:40

I would say to you, thank you, take a few deep

45:42

breaths, close your eyes, open

45:45

the channel, be

45:47

the conduit, not the candle it, let

45:49

something be the conduit come through you. Let

45:52

me ask you again, Tammy, what

45:55

mastery can you offer. And

45:58

I can't say that by the system. The

46:00

new answer that question you have

46:02

the lightbulb area had. I'm.

46:06

But I achieved this exercise the third time

46:08

ever did this exercise. I got to sift

46:10

one saying. I'm. A social

46:12

alchemist. And. Like wow.

46:15

That. Was it. I'm. A mix all just

46:17

of people. I. Love the mixing

46:19

people. That's what we know, that's what

46:21

I do that with And the is

46:23

all about as are you create a

46:25

collective effervescent. Of a cohort

46:27

coming together and. It's. A

46:30

potent cocktail. And so I. It.

46:32

Has helped me as a soldier

46:34

to understand how I'm losing my

46:37

was moving forward so try and

46:39

understand. You guessed getting it down

46:41

to some language allows you to

46:44

see that and then susser say

46:46

that's a slight. Still gonna help

46:48

you out of this messy middle

46:51

the start place and because actually

46:53

what is awesome adjacent media keys

46:55

for you is your sling to

46:58

something that has worked for you.

47:00

All. Way up to now. But. It may

47:03

not work for you moving forward. And

47:05

it's partly because you're not using

47:07

your imagination and the in the

47:09

Christmas the literal biology of it

47:12

is disease and imagine or cells

47:14

that that were in the caterpillar.

47:16

They're also the butterfly and so

47:18

does the a magical cells imagination

47:20

in the chrysalis, imagination and little

47:22

ice that allows you to say

47:24

like ah. Ok and

47:26

letting go of that. And not

47:28

going to go to this. And it's

47:30

not easy. And. But that's why the

47:32

social supports helpful in that era of they

47:34

let me just be dark for a moment

47:36

or you as you would use people use

47:38

the a butterfly metaphor all the. Time. And

47:41

at one point I heard you know

47:43

not all of the caterpillars. Who turn

47:45

into do? Make it out as

47:47

butterflies. Some good just dissolves into

47:49

go and stays to period snow

47:52

And you know that's a that's

47:54

a dark thing to learn our

47:56

when you're studying a metaphor like

47:58

this. I liked about. When I

48:00

didn't understand it that well and I

48:02

thought every single caterpillar comes out as

48:04

a butterfly deluxe know some some don't

48:06

make it. Is true. So.

48:09

There's no during his news. Or

48:11

year The metaphor is helpful. As

48:14

a way especially when you're in

48:16

the most challenging place which is

48:18

like moving from the ending. To.

48:20

The middle. Ah, going from

48:23

Caterpillar to Chris was that there

48:25

can be hope. But

48:27

yeah, if. Not all

48:30

those people on the concentration camp. Viktor

48:32

Frankl was hanging out with. Made.

48:34

It to the other side. You. Know and

48:36

again those who did. From.

48:39

Franco's prospective best only run it

48:41

in in mansards for meetings where

48:43

those who are who are able

48:45

to find the through line, the

48:47

hope and the meaning. So I'm

48:49

disparate. was suffering minus meaning sufferings

48:52

never present, part of or less

48:54

spicy and not number first novelty

48:56

to Buddhism and despair and meaning

48:58

her sort of inversely proportional an

49:00

opponent and yet innocent person Exactly

49:02

so. I. I'm

49:04

not trying to be a pollyanna here. On

49:07

their they're going to be butterflies

49:09

that never make it out of

49:11

the chrysalis. their to me butterflies

49:13

and up on the floor get

49:15

squished since I'm so. So.

49:18

Don't use the Medafor as it doesn't

49:20

work for you as at the same

49:22

time I do believe this three stages

49:24

and accents and for a lot of

49:26

people who get into that dark place

49:28

and skits stuck in the do they

49:30

are in that second stage. Know.

49:35

When. I asked you about teach. You you

49:37

said yeah? this is something wrong and a half to

49:39

get good at because it this time that we're living

49:41

in. And in your new book Learning

49:43

To Love Midlife. You define mid life

49:45

as a really. Large age range.

49:48

I mean, I think I won't last

49:50

mismatch between thirty five and seventy

49:52

five eventually. You could be in

49:54

the midlife passage. I thought that

49:57

such a long period of time

49:59

and. It almost makes it seem like

50:01

what that's like. Know. When.

50:04

I was researching the book is spoke to

50:06

spend a lot and sorted out for saw

50:08

Middle East as a lie. Stage is so

50:11

under researched. I mean has just been not

50:13

a lot of research on it, was a

50:15

lot of research later life it's lonely research

50:17

for early life and adolescents and now emerging

50:19

A.has H in the thirty but not a

50:22

ton around midlife South's talking to the scholars

50:24

younger what people said to me sir over

50:26

and over again was. If.

50:29

We are living in an era where people

50:31

are living longer and let's be clear in

50:33

the Us longevity is in a really big

50:35

right right that we have the same longevity.

50:38

It's do a night in Nineteen Eighty Six

50:40

that is not true and restaurant we are

50:42

premised the only countries distance but as is

50:44

at the same of was nice and six

50:46

Dressler world is flourishing in terms of it's

50:49

longevity. So if we are living longer. On

50:51

on average globally. I

50:54

and there at. The percentage of people

50:56

who are Centenarians in the world is

50:58

growing so fast. You

51:00

know it is possible that middle ice

51:03

last. May. Be as long

51:05

as seventy five because a lot of

51:07

the bargain. Each school career into their

51:09

mid seventies and your the each and

51:11

the thirty five is sort of assumption

51:14

of us acted as it's. Growing

51:16

number of people who are at

51:18

a who are fearful of for

51:21

their jobs ending obsolescence because

51:23

of digital intelligence and technology but

51:25

now especially artificial intelligence so. Certified.

51:29

As safe as long time, but let's break it

51:31

up into three. Pieces.

51:33

Of midlife on and I get

51:35

I worked of academics on the

51:37

South's at Stanford, Harvard, U C,

51:39

Berkeley, and Yale. Thirty.

51:41

Five to fifty assert early mid I

51:44

met early mid life and what's notable

51:46

about this early mid life period is

51:48

it's a time. It's when you feel

51:50

a bit overwhelmed. And. You

51:52

are in the early stages of maybe Swinson

51:55

disappointment. You may see like you are stuck.

51:57

On. A treadmill that was Not your treadmill.

52:00

It was your parents, tried

52:03

notes and you are afflicted

52:05

by successes. I'm thinking successful

52:07

make you happy on. And

52:09

so Thirty started. City is actually

52:12

a really rough period. You current

52:14

happiness research sources research says that

52:16

this do william least happy time

52:18

for adults and then City the

52:20

sixties core midlife. In my opinion

52:22

square midlife means like you have

52:24

started. To. Do a

52:27

major transition on and whether that

52:29

transition is spiritual or it's caught

52:31

controller or it's most know or

52:34

it's in a career wise vocational

52:36

on. Physical. For sure.

52:38

I mean you know it's did met

52:41

met pause for women in a arsonists

52:43

forty five to sixty five. but it

52:45

can be all over that. And hey,

52:47

Menopause all that is you know happening

52:49

during this era And so core midlife

52:52

is a period where you start to

52:54

realize from to see the sixty that

52:56

you're in the afternoon of your life

52:58

as a crow young would say and

53:00

program said you know you can't live

53:03

the afternoon of realize based on the

53:05

rules of the morning And it was

53:07

the mornings. You may be early

53:09

mid life and an earlier. And

53:12

then later mid life is the my pin. Sixty

53:14

to seventy Five Six seventy five. And

53:17

I'm sixty three and so I am

53:19

in that, period. And what's guan and

53:21

later midlife is? You're starting to realize

53:23

you know you. You

53:25

are preparing for your senior years as

53:28

who knows what it's called of seniors

53:30

on your com Seniors now that you

53:32

don't have a better it's name for

53:34

them but like from seventy five on.

53:38

There is. Some evidence

53:40

that the only your happiness starts to

53:42

totes and maybe new race starts to

53:44

decline Nasty toss the you from Happiness

53:47

resources The disagree with me but I

53:49

see my own parents. I know that

53:51

they were at peak level of happiness

53:54

narrate seventies and they're a is have

53:56

been tough because he started being more

53:58

infirmed and there. and things

54:01

start to break down more. And,

54:04

but if you'd listen to Gloria Carson's in the

54:06

Stanford, she'll tell you like, hey, again, the shorter

54:08

amount of time you have left in your life,

54:11

the more you're in that moment and you're

54:13

not focused on the future. And so,

54:16

you know, that's my perspective on midlife is

54:18

that there's three stages of it. And

54:21

there's sort of a general prescription

54:23

of each. But I'm also a believer

54:25

in age fluidity. When you're

54:27

age fluid, there's no like age

54:30

or generation that really defines you.

54:33

You are all the ages you've ever been and ever will be.

54:35

And I sort of like that too. So

54:37

in terms of this notion of the

54:40

midlife chrysalis from crisis to

54:42

chrysalis, it's possible that you

54:44

could have midlife

54:48

chrysalis going through that experience

54:51

in each of the three phases, or

54:53

you could have it multiple times in

54:56

the phases. Like it's not like, I think previously

54:59

I thought like, oh, you go

55:01

through your midlife crisis once.

55:04

But after reading your book, Learning to Love

55:06

Midlife and Reflecting on My Own Life, Where

55:08

I Am Now, et cetera, I thought, God,

55:10

you know, how many of these chrysalis experiences

55:14

am I gonna go through

55:16

in my life? Obviously several. Yeah,

55:18

Bruce Feiler who wrote the book, Life is in

55:20

the Transitions and is on our MBA faculty. It

55:23

calls that the life quake when you are going

55:25

through maybe multiple transitions at once, or you're going

55:27

through a series of them. And

55:30

one of them, you might be in the

55:32

ending period, like a divorce. And another

55:34

one, you might be in a beginning period where it's a

55:36

new career or you're moved to a new place or you're

55:38

an empty nester for the first time. So

55:41

the reality is your, each of

55:44

these three stages are

55:46

relevant to each kind of transition you're going

55:48

through. And when you're going through multiple transitions

55:50

at once, it's a little complicated. But

55:53

yes, I don't think it's all

55:55

linear. And I do love millennials and Gen

55:57

Zers who have taught me that

56:00

The three stages of life that, the tyranny of the

56:03

three stage life that I was sort of brought up

56:05

with and you were too was like you

56:07

learn to your 20 or 25, you earn to your 60

56:09

or 65 and then you adjourn or retire

56:12

till you die, you know,

56:14

no more of that because let's like take

56:16

a sabbatical at age 40 if you can

56:18

afford to. Let's go back

56:20

and go to graduate school at 45. Let's

56:23

become polyamorous in your

56:25

marriage at

56:27

50 and let's be

56:29

open to the idea that you can

56:33

be an evolutionary being that is

56:35

constantly learning something new. The number

56:37

one question we need to ask

56:39

ourselves is what in our life are we a

56:42

beginner at today? And

56:44

that is a more important question to ask in

56:46

midlife and beyond than it is even earlier in

56:48

life. You write beautifully

56:50

about how you started surfing. Yeah,

56:53

a question that we need to ask ourselves is,

56:56

you know, what is it that we know now

56:59

or have done now that we wish we'd known or done

57:01

10 years ago? And then once you know that, what

57:04

is it that I will regret if I don't learn

57:06

it or do it now? And

57:08

at 57, living in Mexico, living in

57:10

Baja, starting out starting the MBA, I

57:12

mean, I can't keep us there.

57:15

You know, I didn't learn Spanish growing up. I learned

57:18

French and the name is you all of

57:20

you for my company. And

57:23

so I'm thinking at 57, well, at 67, it's

57:25

gonna be harder to learn Spanish and harder to

57:27

learn how to surf because I live on a

57:30

beach where there's a surf break. Why

57:32

don't I learn now? Because

57:34

anticipated regret is a form of

57:36

wisdom. And to

57:38

be able to look out there and say at

57:40

67, 10 years from now, I will regret if

57:42

I don't do this now. That's

57:45

what got me off my butt and helped me

57:47

to learn how to learn Spanish and start

57:49

to learn Spanish and start to learn to surf. I'm not

57:51

very good at either. But

57:53

the fact that I started to try is

57:55

a form of a growth mindset. And

57:58

we need that. We need curiosity. and the

58:00

openness to new experiences their whole life. Here's

58:03

the last thing I want to talk about, Chip,

58:05

because you mentioned how when we

58:08

let go, when we

58:10

let die these ego investments and

58:12

we're able to make it through

58:14

the goo, there are

58:16

these new beginnings, new births, we could

58:19

call it our soul life, this journey

58:21

we've been talking about from ego to

58:23

soul. And I'd love to

58:26

know here, here you are having gone

58:28

through just recently this huge

58:30

health travail

58:33

that you're in the middle of, when you

58:35

think of this is what my soul life

58:37

is, this is what

58:39

springs forth, that is

58:41

so genuine for me, that's filled

58:43

with newness. What

58:47

comes up for you? So

58:51

what comes up for me is something, I mentioned

58:53

earlier Erickson and I am my work, etc.

58:58

What he also said was as we

59:00

turn to this age, the I am

59:03

statement is I am what survives me. That's

59:06

what for a while my soul was saying to me,

59:08

I am what survives me, what will survive me? But

59:11

then I had a hard time with that on some level because I was like,

59:13

well, I don't want my name on

59:15

a building and I don't want to

59:17

feel like there's an ego attached to

59:20

legacy for example. So

59:22

the thing that speaks to my soul

59:24

today is I am

59:26

how I serve, I am

59:28

how I serve. And I'm not suggesting that has

59:30

to be somebody else's I am statement. But

59:33

when I get connected

59:36

to that language, I am

59:38

how I serve, it

59:41

allows me to get to a

59:43

place of humility and

59:46

to a place of wanting

59:48

to give back. And

59:54

that's when I know my soul feels well

59:57

adjusted. opened

1:00:00

up this channel that's supposed to come

1:00:03

through me and my role here in life is

1:00:05

to serve. And

1:00:09

how do you know if you're on the right path? You

1:00:12

feel the goosebumps. You

1:00:14

notice people out

1:00:16

there that you might not have noticed in the past

1:00:19

because they are a role model for you. You

1:00:22

hear something, you

1:00:25

hear or you're attracted to

1:00:27

something that wouldn't have been interesting

1:00:29

to you in the past. And

1:00:32

so like for me, I've been really

1:00:35

fascinated by talking to nurses and teachers

1:00:38

who they're in the serving profession. And I'm

1:00:40

a hospitality guy, so of course we were

1:00:42

in the serving profession too. But

1:00:46

when someone's a teacher or a nurse, often it's

1:00:49

a calling for them that came from

1:00:51

something really from

1:00:54

childhood. And I just love

1:00:56

listening to teachers and nurses. If

1:00:58

you'd asked me that 15 years ago, I would not have

1:01:00

enjoyed that. I would have asked the

1:01:02

question, so how's that

1:01:05

serving me? How is it

1:01:07

serving me to listen to teachers and nurses? And

1:01:10

now I just realized that they are

1:01:12

my role models. And I

1:01:14

know the goosebumps are the

1:01:16

physical reaction

1:01:21

to the sense like I'm on the right path.

1:01:26

I've been speaking with Chip Conley,

1:01:28

someone who carries the medicine

1:01:31

of the phoenix, the

1:01:33

power of the phoenix,

1:01:35

very high TQ,

1:01:38

intelligence to go through all kinds

1:01:41

of transitions. He's the author

1:01:43

of the new book, Learning

1:01:46

to Love Midlife. 12 reasons

1:01:48

why life gets better with age.

1:01:51

The founder of the Modern Elder Academy.

1:01:53

Chip, I always love being with you. Thank you, Tammy.

1:01:55

I love being with you, too. You make my heart

1:01:57

swell. Thank you. Well, we learned a lot from you.

1:02:00

from each other. You know, you don't

1:02:02

have such phenomenally similar stories in certain

1:02:04

ways. And so I appreciate that we

1:02:07

are on this learning journey together. And

1:02:10

if you'd like to watch Insights at

1:02:12

the Edge on video and participate in

1:02:14

the after show Q&A session with

1:02:17

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