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1:16

You're listening to Insights at the Edge.

1:19

Today is a rebroadcast of

1:22

one of my favorite episodes. I

1:24

hope you enjoy it. You're

1:26

listening to Insights at the Edge.

1:28

today

1:29

my guest is doctor Christian Conte.

1:32

Christian is one of the country's most

1:34

accomplished mental health specialists

1:37

in the field of anger and

1:39

emotional management. He's

1:41

one of only a handful of people

1:43

who have a level five anger

1:46

management certification, which

1:48

is the highest possible level.

1:49

Christian currently trains

1:52

correctional institutions, sports

1:54

teams, and organizations in

1:57

the practical app location of

1:59

his

1:59

Yield Theory anger

2:02

management program. And Sounds

2:04

true, doctor Christian has

2:07

written a new book called

2:09

walking through anger. In

2:12

this conversation with Christian Conte,

2:14

he explains yield

2:16

theory.

2:17

in the three steps, listen,

2:19

validate,

2:20

explore options. It

2:23

sounds but in my

2:25

experience, it's pretty

2:27

deep work and hard to master. Here's

2:30

my conversation with a

2:32

gifted guide. Doctor Christian

2:38

To begin with Christian, I'd love

2:40

if you could share with our listeners how

2:43

you became an anger management

2:46

specialist. What led up to that?

2:49

That is a wonderful

2:52

Christian. And I wish it could just be

2:54

a really quick one

2:56

story answer. but

2:58

the reality is it's complex,

3:01

but it's it's kind of beautiful. Please

3:03

tell us the whole thing. Don't rush.

3:06

Well, so when I was really -- I

3:08

was reflected on this very

3:10

same Christian.

3:11

When I was going through the process of

3:14

writing this book, And I thought

3:16

back to my childhood, never two incidences

3:19

that I think really began leading

3:22

me to where I where I am today.

3:24

The first one was this, my

3:26

my dad was a professor of

3:29

Earth science, and so I

3:31

was a hauty teenager, and I I said to

3:33

him as a teenager. Hey, Dad. What's

3:35

the fun in studying rocks? And

3:37

he said, well, if you only

3:39

ever live on one planet in your

3:41

life, don't you think you ought to get to know that planet?

3:44

I was like, I kinda made a lot of sense.

3:46

So later on in college when I was

3:48

kinda, you know, trying to I was

3:50

lost, trying to figure out what study. I

3:52

thought about my dad's advice and the path

3:55

he took. And but I put a little twist

3:57

on it. I thought, well, I'm only ever gonna

3:59

live with me my

3:59

whole life. So why don't I get to know myself?

4:02

So I studied I started to study

4:04

psychology at that time. So that was

4:07

first thing that I think really even led me

4:09

down this. But and then I went back to

4:11

say even a little bit farther,

4:13

and I thought about advice my mom gave

4:15

me. So my mom was a is

4:17

this incredible Listen. She was an a

4:20

disciplinarian as a teacher. She was a high

4:22

school English teacher. And I

4:24

was gonna be attending the high school where

4:26

she taught.

4:26

So I went to school in the eighties where

4:28

kids would circle up and fight just like

4:30

if if young people today don't know

4:32

that, then I hope they don't have to

4:34

know that same kind of stuff that we

4:36

went through. But they would circle up

4:38

and fight. And my and my mom said to me when we get

4:40

to the high school. She Listen, I'd better

4:42

never find out that you ever watched a fight.

4:45

and didn't step in and break it up.

4:47

Listen, my mom might be small, but I was

4:50

definitely more afraid of my mom

4:52

than I was of the kids.

4:54

So I would step in all the time. I'd be breaking

4:56

up Kids would be mad at me. Let them fight.

4:58

Let them go. And now you go. You

5:00

wanna face my mom, you do that. So

5:02

So I think that I learned early

5:05

on when I Conflict, don't

5:07

run from it, go toward it. And

5:10

combining that

5:11

journey of personal growth going into

5:13

the depths of my own psyche and learning

5:15

about myself, focusing constantly on

5:18

what I can learn about me and then

5:21

realizing that when something goes wrong,

5:23

step in and do something, I think those are the

5:25

– that's kind of the impetus to get made in

5:27

the direction I was going. on

5:29

a more recent level,

5:31

when I was a professor, when I first

5:33

started to be a professor,

5:37

I sat in on some

5:40

groups where they were doing anger management.

5:42

And

5:43

I went incognito. So I

5:45

was just in my t shirt and jeans,

5:48

and I'm a six foot two hundred and fifty

5:50

pound bald guy with tattoos and

5:52

a beard. I looks like everybody other everybody

5:54

else at a biker bar. And

5:57

I I Conte and I sat

5:59

in on this

5:59

group and

6:01

No one knew I was there. Like, they just

6:03

thought, you know, I was a part of the

6:05

group. I was one of the guys in the group.

6:07

And two things shot to me and

6:09

really set of firing me to

6:11

change things. The first was this,

6:14

the teacher was extremely pejorative.

6:17

He was he's condescending. He would

6:19

talk down to them. Some of you

6:21

guys, the psychopath, you're never going to change.

6:24

I thought, Mike, goodness, how somebody's supposed

6:26

to learn and change, do something different if that's

6:28

what they're being told. And then the other

6:30

piece was just some of the guys in this anger

6:32

management group who had been, you know,

6:34

convicted of violent crime. We're out

6:36

on parole at this time, but they were without patient,

6:38

but they had to be at these groups. Well,

6:40

in order to get through the group, they had to write what

6:42

was called a letter of accountability. And

6:45

the guys in the back of the room were looking

6:47

at a guy who was about to graduate the

6:49

group, and they were looking at his letter. They said, no,

6:51

don't say these change this,

6:53

erase this, say this. And so he's back

6:55

there scrambling, hurry up writing exactly

6:57

what he was supposed to write. And didn't

6:59

care. It wasn't involved in the class. It

7:01

was kind of because obviously teachers shut them

7:03

down and others down. And so

7:05

that's what he turned in. And of course,

7:08

fit the bureaucratic model

7:10

of give you a piece of paper so I can

7:12

demonstrate your accountability. Any

7:14

pass And I thought, well, he hasn't

7:16

learned anything different, and he was involved

7:19

in domestic violence. And the odds are he's gonna

7:21

be involved in domestic violence again.

7:24

And so I started to take

7:26

over these groups and after I did

7:28

a study on guilt therapy many years ago

7:30

and it was effective. And

7:32

this is really how I kind of got started.

7:35

And I think I just I resonated

7:37

a lot with the guys. I mean,

7:39

the reality is I am a

7:41

tougher looking guy and

7:47

definitely have physical strength. And I

7:49

think guys when it comes to those

7:51

anger management groups where especially many of

7:53

these men intimidated people

7:55

in their lives. They

7:57

they kind of respected that at face value at

7:59

first. So I kind of was able to reach them.

8:02

And what I'll share with you today is

8:04

it's nothing about acting intimidated acting

8:07

tough, but also don't deny the reality

8:09

that obviously when I walk in and

8:11

started. I mean, Listen, my first day

8:13

in this group.

8:14

I was running the group. My first day running

8:16

it.

8:17

Guy comes in, he goes, they're forming a

8:19

line. I said, plan to a guy that was

8:21

coming in the door. I said, go ahead and and sign in

8:23

here. He said, no. Glad you sign in

8:25

first. I said, no, my man. I'm doctor

8:27

Conte, you go ahead and sign in. And he

8:29

said, oh, I'm doctor Conte too. And

8:31

I said, well, actually,

8:34

I am actually doctor Conte. So I'm gonna

8:36

need you to sign in and go ahead and

8:38

sit down. So I think the guy is kind

8:40

of like, okay, this guy is he's here

8:42

with us. And my whole philosophy

8:44

on life has been My

8:46

tagline has been there are

8:48

two kinds of people in the world,

8:50

Tammy. There are people

8:52

who have issues and dead

8:55

people. So if you're currently alive, you

8:57

have issues, so to why, so to

8:59

everyone. So my approach

9:01

has always been, I'm with you. I'm

9:03

not better than you I'm not worse than you.

9:05

We're all in this together. I might have come

9:07

across some information that is

9:09

valuable to you and I'm have an opportunity to

9:11

share this with you. of course, we could

9:13

turn around and you could teach me something in the

9:15

next moment. And I think

9:17

guys really like that. And not just

9:19

guys, the men and women really like this

9:22

you know,

9:22

not this expert top down, but

9:24

we're here together. Let let me just shine

9:26

light. Let me shine some light on what's going

9:28

on. Mhmm. And people really responded

9:31

to that. Well, and of Conte, someone

9:33

who's really angry that could come in any kind

9:35

of package. It could be, you

9:37

know, a four foot tall

9:39

skinny Listen. But in

9:41

a way, you are kind of built for the

9:43

work you're doing as

9:45

an anger management specialist as you

9:47

describe yourself. I can see that.

9:49

And I think you're --

9:51

I believe with all of me that

9:53

you're at one thousand percent right. It does not

9:55

matter the size. I just think initially

9:57

when I was thinking about why did I get into

9:59

this, I think it

10:03

was such a good fit when I

10:05

when I was there that I

10:07

kind of just kept going deeper and deeper into

10:09

anger management. However,

10:11

I always like to say it's not

10:13

just anger management, it's emotional

10:16

management because so much more

10:18

goes into anger, so much

10:20

more. Mhmm. And we're gonna talk about that

10:22

briefly.

10:22

You mentioned that there was

10:24

a study done on yield

10:26

theory. And yield theory

10:28

is the approach that

10:30

you've created that describes

10:33

emotional management in general and how you

10:35

work as a counselor. So, doctor

10:38

Christian Conte introduce yield

10:41

theory to our listeners. Okay.

10:44

Wonderful. So yield theory is

10:47

and

10:47

approach the communication that

10:50

is predicated on meeting people where

10:52

they are, leading

10:54

with compassion, and

10:56

using conscious education to help

10:58

circumvent the fight or flight response.

11:00

So maybe even more simply it's this.

11:02

It's about interacting

11:04

with people with compassion and conscious

11:07

education. It's it's recognizing

11:09

that you cannot just You

11:11

can speak just to speak and that's great

11:13

and lots of people do that all the

11:15

time. But it's really about

11:18

getting around people's defensiveness in the

11:20

heat of emotion and being able

11:22

to speak in ways that actually

11:24

connect with them. So

11:27

it came to me, in nineteen ninety

11:29

eight, I had this I've been an avid

11:31

meditator, my from,

11:33

I'd say, to my whole adult life. And

11:36

out out of a meditation, I kinda had this

11:38

vision that if somebody

11:40

was in a car and they were going down the

11:42

highway the wrong way, And you

11:44

wanted to stop them and you're in a you're in

11:46

a car too. And you think, well, I could

11:48

have a head on collision. I would stop

11:50

them. Sure. You'd stop them. One or both of you

11:52

might get awfully hurt. Or

11:54

what if this happened? And this is just

11:57

a hypothetical, just a thought experiment.

11:59

But what if you were to drive your

12:01

car and merge with

12:03

them kind of at that yield sign, yield

12:06

with them, merge with them. And you try

12:08

to along the road in the same direction

12:10

they're going. side by side. And

12:12

eventually, they start thinking, Listen, this

12:14

is gonna be a long trip. Let's save some gas.

12:16

They invite you into their their

12:18

car. again hypothetical. So now

12:20

you're in the passenger seat and you're

12:22

starting to see out of the same windshield

12:24

they're saying out of. Now you're starting

12:26

to get a little bit better understanding. And

12:28

then eventually, they get tired of

12:31

this long journey and they trust you to

12:33

drive. And in that spot, you can help

12:35

steer them down a different

12:37

path. So that was the initial kind of

12:39

analogy of, like, really

12:41

meeting people where they are, not where

12:43

you want them to be or think they should be, but

12:45

meeting them where they actually are. and

12:48

really trying to see the world

12:50

from their perspective. So I

12:52

thought of this early, Tammy. I Listen,

12:55

if I I love them the

12:57

idea if I walk a mile in

12:59

someone else's shoes, but this goes deeper

13:01

than that. I imagine

13:03

what if I spent every

13:05

day as the other person. In other

13:07

words, not

13:08

just my cognitive functioning,

13:10

but their cognitive functioning. not

13:12

my ability to experience emotions,

13:14

but their effective range.

13:16

And what if I had their life experiences? And

13:19

what I've come to I

13:21

believe I would have made every single

13:24

decision that that person made.

13:26

And

13:26

of course, this is just a hypothetical.

13:29

And of course, we can't have this

13:31

is the answer. But what we can

13:33

do is this, when you realize

13:35

that, you know, instead of saying, well, I would have

13:37

done things different there. I had a tough

13:39

life and I didn't do this. We say, wait a

13:41

minute. If

13:42

I really am that person, how can

13:44

I say I would have done anything differently? And

13:47

just that exercise is

13:50

about saying, I'm gonna put

13:52

aside my own stuff and recognize, I don't need

13:54

judgment here. I just need to assess

13:56

the situation and figure out what I could do

13:58

from this moment forward. So

13:59

this is powerful thing

14:02

to really grasp because we're not

14:04

saying we condone what they're

14:06

doing. because

14:06

you have to remember, I specialize in working

14:09

with people convicted of violent crimes. They

14:11

do things that are so awful. I wouldn't even

14:13

talk about it in public to make people have that in

14:15

their psychies. But how

14:17

do I do that work? I do it because I imagine

14:19

if I was them, I never met anyone who

14:21

woke up and just did things, heard

14:23

others, that didn't have things happened to

14:25

them? Now

14:26

this idea of meeting

14:28

people where they are

14:30

seeing through their eyes

14:32

you know, walking in their shoes. It's so

14:35

so powerful, Christian. And I

14:37

wanna talk about a little

14:39

bit of why it's so hard

14:41

for people. And,

14:41

you know, quite honestly, I find

14:44

it hard when people are

14:46

really emotional. It could

14:48

be anger, but it could also be

14:50

something like grief or sadness.

14:52

And when it's so intense,

14:54

it can be hard for

14:56

me not to jump directly to,

14:58

you know, wanting to fix

15:00

their situation, to actually join

15:02

with them. It's unbelievably

15:05

painful. So I to start there

15:07

because how do you help people

15:10

develop that capacity? to

15:12

be with that much intense

15:14

emotion, whether it's anger

15:16

or grief or whatever it might

15:18

be. I

15:19

really, I just love

15:21

that question because it

15:23

comes from a really good place to

15:26

want to fix other people's

15:28

emotions. It comes from such a beautiful loving

15:30

place, but the reality

15:32

is we don't fix other

15:34

people's emotions. all we can do is make ourselves

15:36

a safe space and we

15:38

can become a mirror to help

15:40

them see themselves and help

15:42

them get them into the position

15:44

they is best for them or get them

15:46

out of what they're in that

15:48

suffering. And I think

15:50

that So

15:50

I talk about these five

15:53

errors of communication that we

15:55

make, and one of them is called the error

15:57

of omnipotence when we believe we're responsible

15:59

for what others

15:59

do. And this

16:02

is an air and it's omnipotence,

16:04

all powerful. This air of belief that we're

16:06

all powerful, that we fix I

16:08

can't fix it. I can't pull you

16:10

out of hell, but I can sit in the fires of

16:12

hell with you. You

16:13

know, compassion is about suffering

16:16

with the person. It's not

16:17

about fixing the personal suffering with the

16:20

person and in a sense, and I'll explain it

16:22

as we talk, but we have things in our

16:24

brain such as mirror neurons that

16:26

help us really get

16:28

to the heart of empathy with

16:30

watching what's going on with others. But I

16:32

believe the reason why I can fit in that

16:34

is this. this is

16:36

really what it is. I believe in

16:38

the human spirit. I believe people are

16:40

strong enough to get through what's being

16:43

presented to them. I really truly

16:45

believe in people. And so

16:46

more than twenty

16:49

thousand hours of clinical experience, people have

16:51

asked me, you ever cried with a

16:53

client? Now, if I'm

16:55

being completely honest, there were times

16:57

when I was

16:59

driving home. Many times I'm driving home from

17:01

work work. The stories were so overwhelming

17:03

that I burst out then, but I never cried when I

17:05

was with clients. And the reason is

17:07

twofold Conte, I wanted to be a for

17:09

them to be able to show them. Look,

17:11

your problems aren't so bad that your counselors

17:13

are breaking down. And two,

17:15

I realized, hold on a second.

17:18

there is a beginning, middle, and

17:20

end to every emotional

17:23

situation. And I believe in

17:25

the strength of the person in front of

17:27

me that they will get through that beginning middle

17:29

and end. I believe in them. So

17:31

I don't need to I think it's only

17:33

our egos that really want to

17:36

truly fix it because then we're like, hey, look, I

17:38

helped you. And for me, whether or

17:40

not I helped you or not, what matters is, can I

17:42

shine light and can I be a space of

17:44

compassion for you? Do you think

17:46

that if

17:46

somebody is not at

17:49

home, cannot hold a space

17:52

for the depth of their own anger or

17:54

sadness or whatever the emotion is,

17:57

that that's what is the

17:59

impediment to

17:59

suffer with another person that we have to

18:02

be able to hold that space for

18:04

ourselves? Yes. I

18:05

mean, that's why that's why

18:08

for me. I tell you say all the time in Yelp, the

18:10

focus is on you controlling the only

18:12

person over whom you actually have control,

18:14

and that's you. If

18:16

you can get to know yourself well enough,

18:18

you'll start to understand what you're projecting

18:20

on others, how

18:21

your defense mechanisms are kicking in,

18:23

what's getting in the way, what are the ops difficult. And

18:25

the more you can kind of clean on

18:28

yourself and get yourself in

18:29

a space of clarity,

18:32

the the the more reflective you're gonna be

18:35

able to be to kind of be that mirror for

18:37

others.

18:37

Mhmm. because, you know, you you mentioned that you

18:40

work with violent criminals

18:43

and how in your own upbringing,

18:45

your mother said to you at a young age, you

18:47

know, when there's conflict, you step in,

18:49

you be the peacemaker. But I think for

18:51

a lot of people. They grew up in

18:54

environments where conflict was

18:56

something to be avoided. It

18:59

was I mean, a lot of people are conflict avoidance. That's what I'm conflict

19:01

avoidance. I go the other way. Mhmm.

19:03

And now if

19:03

somebody's really angry, the

19:06

last thing such

19:08

people may want to do is

19:10

hold the space for someone's anger. They're

19:12

not used to that.

19:14

Right. Right. Right. And so

19:16

I talk about this way I said there are

19:18

two different kind of people. I think there are

19:20

two worlds we live in. One is what

19:22

I call the cartoon world. The

19:24

cartoon world is our world of shoulds.

19:26

People shouldn't be responding like that.

19:28

People shouldn't take that perspective.

19:31

People shouldn't see the world the way

19:33

I do. and then we look at what I

19:35

call the real world, which is how the world

19:37

actually is. And as long

19:39

as we align our expectations with the

19:41

cartoon world, we're let down.

19:42

Why

19:43

aren't they doing? They should be doing

19:45

this. But when we can learn to align

19:47

our expectations with the reality of the

19:49

way the world is, then we can be

19:51

more prepared to enter it. So that

19:54

dealing conflict doesn't necessarily make

19:56

it go away. In fact, It

19:58

rarely does. It usually makes it build

19:59

up. So it's not a matter of

20:02

not addressing it, but I think the reason

20:04

why people tend to shy away from

20:06

conflict is on

20:08

the deepest neurological level,

20:11

conflict can lead

20:13

to anger and violence and

20:16

ultimately as self

20:19

preserving Healing,

20:21

when we know that something might lead to

20:23

violence that could threaten our existence,

20:25

I think it's

20:26

a continuum. And so we trace it all the way

20:28

back and say, wait a minute. We're in this present moment.

20:30

And something says as soon as there's conflict, I

20:32

don't want Conflict. it's gonna be uncomfortable.

20:34

I'm not gonna like it. But

20:37

yet, I would I would ask

20:39

you this and I would like to ask others

20:41

out there listening, would you say

20:43

that you -- part of why you are who

20:45

you are today is because you're able to overcome conflict?

20:49

sure Sure. Like,

20:51

there are things in your

20:53

life that you had obstacles and you

20:56

you didn't become who you are by having

20:58

everything fall into place for you.

21:00

the Sure. And

21:02

so if we know that we

21:04

didn't just everything handed to us on a Prada.

21:06

We had to watch what we had to overcome that

21:09

stuff. Then I say, why

21:11

not practice how we can

21:13

approach people in those situations

21:16

without feeling so vulnerable.

21:18

And this is what I feel like I armed people

21:20

with and walking through anger because

21:22

here's a

21:22

way to

21:24

communicate with somebody who's angry. It doesn't mean

21:27

it's gonna be easy to if you

21:29

don't like the anger on the stuff because it's not

21:31

gonna say that I like yelling

21:32

or the anger, especially if it's directed at

21:35

me. But I understand that

21:37

it's not personal. It's

21:39

it's that person it's what that person

21:41

is experiencing on the deepest

21:43

level. It's not personal toward

21:45

me because people can't give you what's not

21:47

inside them. Okay.

21:48

Take us through the yield

21:50

theory in action. Maybe you could give

21:52

us an example of how you would apply

21:54

it in a in a real life situation

21:56

working with someone who's really

21:59

angry about

21:59

something. Okay.

22:01

So

22:03

the core of your deal,

22:05

Dave. I'll give you just a real life example first, and

22:07

then I'll break down with the core of it is.

22:10

So again, it's about meeting people where

22:12

they are. And let me

22:14

just say the core fundamental

22:16

actions are listen,

22:18

validate, and

22:19

explore options. So one day I

22:22

was in a

22:23

maximum security prison. Listen actually

22:26

a Supramax. and an

22:28

inmate got sent to the hole because

22:30

he threatened the teacher's life. So

22:34

he yeah. He's down there in the hall.

22:36

He's serious. I mean, enraged.

22:38

He's screaming banging and

22:42

they asked me to talk to him.

22:44

So I went went over to so they called me

22:46

down to come to this unit. So I come down to this

22:48

unit and I hear him knowing it's been. So I said, what

22:50

tell me what happened? He said

22:52

the teacher took my paper and

22:55

and and ripped it up to front of everybody in

22:57

front of the class.

22:58

now Now, I don't

23:01

know

23:01

whether or not the teacher picked it up and ripped up

23:03

his paper in front of everyone. I have

23:06

no idea if this happened exactly like this

23:08

or not. I know that this in this moment,

23:10

this is perception. So I said

23:12

to him, that's

23:14

so messed up. Jeez. If someone yeah.

23:16

And remember, let's watch out says, if someone picked

23:18

up my paper and ripped it, that would be awful.

23:20

He said it was. It was said so messed up

23:22

that she did it. And I said

23:24

so yeah. I can't I can't imagine what

23:27

you're experiencing right now and what you're going through.

23:29

So what what did you do? And

23:31

he said I said, because I know personally someone

23:34

if I put effort into something and someone ripped

23:36

it up and I felt foolish, I

23:38

would certainly feel some sort

23:39

of way. So he said, well,

23:42

I told her that I mean, I might have

23:44

said something like like like

23:46

blocky. Like, I think Madison and

23:48

stuff like that. you know, it's just something

23:50

like that. And I said, wait a

23:52

minute. So did you tell her that she's

23:55

lucky you take medicine because of

23:57

what you'll do, like alluding to, you could hurt

23:59

her then? And he

23:59

was Listen, something like that. And I said, something

24:02

like that? Or is that what you said? And

24:04

he goes, yeah. That's what I said. I said, okay.

24:06

Okay. So you're angry. You were angry.

24:08

So yielding is about push

24:11

pull for license. See, I key those about if

24:13

I push you, instead of

24:15

you pull it or pushing me back, you would

24:17

pull me and then I'd go flying. If I try to pull you

24:19

instead of resisting, you'd jump,

24:21

you'd push me in a go. So

24:23

so you're gonna watch this flow as we're talking. So

24:25

I said, Okay.

24:28

So let me ask you a question. You're

24:30

not

24:30

you know, a father, are you? He said,

24:32

oh, yeah. I have two kids. I said,

24:34

you don't have girls, do you? And

24:36

he said, oh, yeah. I got two

24:38

girls. So I said, oh, my man. I said, you know, I

24:40

have a daughter and she's my life. I love

24:42

my little girl more than anything in this

24:45

world. He said, I'll man me too. I said, I have a

24:47

question for you. If somebody came

24:49

up to one of your little girls and

24:51

said, man, you're lucky I take

24:53

mezzarella. And it was a man

24:55

that was a lot bigger than they

24:57

are. What would you do? He said

24:58

me and that guy got a problem. And

25:00

I said, you understand where

25:02

I'm going? You said, I see where you're going

25:05

doc. I said, I have a Listen. I said,

25:07

listen. In your intentions, you might very well have

25:09

not intended to

25:11

mean what you said, but people see

25:13

your actions, not your intentions.

25:16

that teacher, she didn't know whether you were

25:18

going to or not going to whether

25:20

none. All she could go on is the

25:22

actual threat. At this time

25:23

at this time, this guy's ridiculously calm.

25:26

He's shaking his head, like, yeah. You're right. You're

25:28

right. Right. And I said, so I have a question because

25:30

when I first got there was, like, I'm not

25:33

supposed be down here. This is messed up. I said, do you do

25:35

you think you're you're where you're supposed to be right

25:37

now? He goes, yeah, I I should be here for

25:39

this. I said, do you do you see what I'm

25:41

getting at right now? He said, I

25:43

do. I said at

25:43

the end of the day, you could get through this

25:46

situation, and you could say the old

25:48

things

25:48

you used to say, maybe try to get out of

25:50

it, fight a case, this and

25:52

that. all

25:52

I'm asking to do for your

25:55

own growth is look at

25:57

it. Is this -- was this the

25:59

best reflection

25:59

of you And if it wasn't, can you really be ready to

26:02

take feedback? because that's what growth is

26:04

about. He said, man, I'll

26:06

definitely

26:06

wanna show I have growth.

26:08

I said, Sounds

26:09

like you got a good answer for

26:12

you.

26:13

Wow. Very

26:16

masterful. that was so masterful.

26:19

I

26:19

kinda like that you

26:21

use that word. And first of all, thank you a lot

26:23

because I believe that we master what

26:26

we

26:27

have been practicing, joining

26:29

with people. Now when I join with them

26:31

and try to see from their eyes, I'm thinking

26:34

like, I

26:34

do it instantly. A lot of times when I train officers

26:36

or corrections officers, they say, well,

26:38

I don't have time to go in all. I say, Listen,

26:40

it takes no more time.

26:42

It's

26:43

actually faster because the faster

26:45

I see things from someone else's perspective

26:47

and when we're

26:48

angry, we want to be hurt, we want to

26:51

be understood. and

26:52

or at least people trying to understand us.

26:54

And when you

26:55

can create the space for someone to feel

26:58

understood, What they do is

27:00

they move from the emotional

27:02

center of their limbic system

27:04

in the center of their brain and they move to the

27:06

frontal cortex to higher level

27:08

thinking and decision making

27:10

area. I'm

27:10

gonna read a

27:13

quote from walking through

27:15

anger that describes what you're

27:17

talking about here. Here's the quote. People

27:19

don't calm down because you

27:21

tell them to. They calm

27:23

down because you've given them the

27:26

opportunity. to express what was in their limbic

27:28

system. They calm

27:30

down because you've validated

27:32

them enough. to help drain the

27:34

limbic system, which allows

27:36

them to move from their

27:38

emotional center to their

27:40

higher level thinking center.

27:42

So explain this idea

27:44

of draining the limbic

27:46

system and how the

27:48

actions of yield theory do

27:50

that. Yes,

27:51

I love this. So I kind of, as

27:53

you'll see with walking through anger,

27:55

I definitely teach in parables. I

27:57

use tons of evaluative metaphors.

28:00

So one day I was trying to

28:02

really think I a really

28:04

simple way and

28:06

trust me,

28:06

I love the study, neurology, but

28:08

I know neurologists out there could be cringing

28:11

anytime someone tries to

28:13

simplify it too much because the brain

28:15

is so complex. when

28:17

we think about the limbic

28:19

system, which is involves

28:21

areas of the brain

28:23

that are involved with emotions.

28:26

even things like the hypothalamus, like when you're hungry, when

28:28

you're overly hungry, tired, you

28:31

know, overheated, this is in

28:33

this center. So this is in your

28:35

emotional center. Well, if we were

28:37

to look at the brain and we do a brain

28:39

imaging, there

28:40

are areas of the brain. Now the whole

28:42

brain is always active, but there are areas

28:44

that are more active of times.

28:47

And so if someone is highly

28:49

emotional, there are areas in the limbic

28:51

that are going to be more lighted up than the frontal

28:53

cortex, the higher level thinking.

28:55

So what I said was drain the limbic system, this

28:57

is just a metaphor. So I

28:59

don't want people thinking about they're saying there's water

29:01

in the brain, but here's my metaphor.

29:05

Imagine that the limbic system

29:07

was filled up with water, and

29:09

that water represented the

29:11

anger, the emotion. And let's say

29:14

you had a a drain

29:16

there. Until

29:17

you turn on the the nozzle

29:19

and the water starts to leak out, but then you just try

29:21

to turn it right back off. So you just

29:23

let a tiny bit of that water out. Well, there's still

29:25

a whole lot of energy right there in that

29:27

that

29:27

limbic system. But when I say

29:30

drain the limbic system, what I mean is you kind of

29:32

open up that valve until all the water

29:34

comes out. And once the

29:36

water's out of that area, and again

29:38

doctor has water on the brain for real, now

29:40

that it can go to the other

29:42

areas where it's needed such as

29:44

your frontal cortex. But

29:46

we can't simultaneously be

29:49

calm and angry. We're gonna

29:51

be either in a spot where we're

29:53

making good decisions or

29:55

more emotional. And

29:57

so I try to help people drain that

29:59

limbic So now

29:59

they're ready, they're more prepared. Honestly,

30:02

Tim, it's one of the reasons why when I talk

30:04

about parenting, I say, I

30:06

literally have never yelled at or

30:08

spanked my daughter ever. And

30:10

she's fourteen. She's the most beautiful,

30:12

incredible human being ever

30:14

met. But one of the reasons why I

30:17

say not to yell is if

30:19

we're trying to teach children and we know

30:21

they learn in the front part of

30:23

their brain, and yelling at them is gonna activate a part of their

30:25

brain that we don't want

30:26

to be listening. In other

30:28

words, parents will come to me all

30:30

time in therapy and say, well, I screamed at them a hundred times. They

30:32

still don't listen. I'm like, well, maybe

30:34

the message you're using to get

30:36

this message across is not working.

30:39

Yeah.

30:39

So then how do you engage

30:42

in

30:42

a disciplinary action when it's

30:45

needed? Oh, definitely. So

30:47

discipline absolutely essential.

30:50

absolutely essential. And, you know, we live in this

30:52

world where in

30:54

anthedromia is just in the

30:56

foreground. We go from one to the other. have

30:58

a tendency to think, well, if you don't yell on

31:00

screen and hit, then you must not

31:02

discipline them. And that's not even remotely

31:05

true. So my 4C's that

31:07

drive this are

31:10

choices, consequences, consistency

31:13

and compassion. In other words, there's

31:15

a choice. We all have a choice. So if you're if you're talking about this

31:17

with parenting, your children, your children always

31:20

have a choice, sometimes parenting. No, they

31:22

don't. They have to listen to me.

31:24

they still have a choice. Now there's

31:26

a consequence if they don't Listen. that's what

31:28

you're getting at. Absolutely, there's a

31:30

consequence. there's

31:31

a consequence either whatever choice they make, there's

31:33

a consequence. And as if

31:35

you're enforcing the rules, whether you're

31:37

a guard, whether you're an officer, whether

31:39

you're a parent, then you're

31:41

going to want to be consistent. So you

31:43

say something, you're going to want

31:45

to follow through because you're teaching people

31:47

how to treat you. And then what

31:49

I emphasize the most is compassion. In other

31:51

words, you can do all of that with

31:54

compassion. If I recognize and and

31:56

I've made this my the

31:57

most important my life to do, that every interaction

31:59

with my

31:59

daughter I'm teaching, my job is to

32:02

teach. And so, you know,

32:04

children don't I'm

32:06

born in this world knowing everything.

32:08

Our job is to teach them and guide them. And if

32:10

they mess up, if they don't know, then we want

32:12

to guide them. And I just think time and again, what's the

32:14

most effective way to teach? Is it

32:16

screaming and Or is

32:18

it shining light and helping them be

32:20

internally motivated to

32:22

learn it? Again,

32:22

very masterful. You know, you

32:24

have a great knack Christian

32:26

of simplifying things

32:28

that can seem quite confounding.

32:30

Sounds, that's

32:33

like one of the biggest

32:34

compliments because I really I really

32:36

wanna share this with you. When I was

32:38

young, my parents placed the academic

32:41

I was blessed to have a really high IQ

32:43

and a lot of expectations come with that

32:45

and my parents pushed me to read a lot,

32:47

which I love and I'm so grateful for

32:49

them. So thank for the parents I have. But, you know,

32:51

I remember the first time I encountered GWS

32:54

Haagel. And he's

32:55

this is German's philosophy

32:58

who writes in such a convoluted way

33:00

that by the time you're done with the first

33:02

paragraph, you think you spun around

33:04

in your chair twenty times because you feel

33:07

dizzy. And I thought to myself when I read the Hegel and I was young,

33:09

I said, you know what? When I get older, I'm

33:11

never gonna make things complicated for people.

33:13

I'm gonna make things so that

33:15

I can teach them to anyone, and I truly believe that if

33:17

I can't share this with a five year old, then

33:19

I don't know it well enough, and I own

33:21

the responsibility for that.

33:23

So

33:23

just to keep going here, I think you have a way

33:26

of explaining it that makes

33:28

it really

33:28

easy to understand,

33:31

but in my own experience, it's not easy to do. And

33:33

I'm gonna have to come clean and be a

33:35

little confessional here for a

33:37

moment, which is my wife of

33:39

eighteen years, we have a beautiful marriage. She's

33:41

a very emotional person. And

33:43

I would say in general, maybe more

33:45

of a thinking type. when

33:47

she gets extremely emotional about

33:50

something, what she wants

33:52

more than anything is for me to

33:54

follow some type of

33:56

yield method. She wants me to merge

33:58

with her and feel what

33:59

she's feeling. And it's the

34:02

last thing I wanna do.

34:04

I think, oh my god, she's so

34:06

freaked out. She's crazy right now.

34:08

I'm not Healing with that. No

34:10

way. So I would like more

34:13

help. in understanding how to

34:16

do that? Because even though it sounds

34:18

easy, take her perspective. Blah. Blah.

34:20

I am scared of the

34:22

intensity of what she's

34:24

feeling? Well,

34:24

it's actually more intense

34:27

when you're resisting. you just think of

34:29

anxiety and how resistance impacts anxiety. But let me say it

34:32

like this. So in your

34:34

cartoon world,

34:36

you're Healing, shouldn't be so

34:38

emotional right now. It

34:40

shouldn't have been that

34:42

intense about that issue. That's your

34:44

cartoon world. The real

34:46

world is she is doing that. And again, as long as you're

34:48

trying to force her into your cartoon

34:50

world, now you're starting to butt heads

34:52

with her. But if you can just

34:54

genuinely meet her where she is and say, you

34:56

know what? This is for whatever

34:58

reason causing this, what

35:00

you'll find is I

35:02

believe she will be like, my

35:04

goodness. This is so much. Like, now she doesn't have

35:06

a need to go that

35:08

intense. See, a

35:10

really powerful lesson from family

35:12

therapy is this. We Listen

35:15

theory, we play a role in

35:17

every interaction that we have. So every

35:19

time you and your wife have

35:21

a disagreement or you're in that type of

35:24

situation, you are playing a role.

35:26

Even if you come home

35:28

and she's in that spot, you you just walked

35:30

in the door you still play

35:32

a role because you do have a

35:34

history. You know that there are ways

35:36

she might respond to things. She

35:38

knows there are ways. You might respond

35:40

to things. And so once we realize,

35:42

instead of trying to make it linear, no, it's just her. It's just

35:44

whatever happened in her life and her.

35:46

And you realize it's circular causality.

35:50

all of these things merge. Now when you go into the wait

35:52

a minute, there's something I'm doing to not

35:54

make her feel comfortable enough and

35:57

that she feels like she has to go to such

35:59

an extreme to have me see that

36:02

she's in emotional pain

36:04

right now. because that's one of the reasons why people respond so

36:06

intensely. Is they're in pain?

36:08

And look, if I cut my arm, you can see how

36:10

big the cut is. You can imagine I'm in

36:12

pain Insights

36:14

limits. anxiety, depression, fear, how big is

36:16

that? Nobody knows. So you

36:18

express it how best you can. If you

36:20

don't feel like you're being hurt, many times

36:24

people express it in really intense ways saying, please

36:26

look, notice this pain.

36:28

And in my honest

36:31

you know, this is what I love about what

36:33

I do is I'm easy to find.

36:35

So it's what I share with people doesn't

36:37

work. Believe me, the world will let me know

36:39

in a hurry. But what I would invite

36:41

you to do is next time struggling in that way, kinda really look at it

36:44

as she's struggling in that way. She doesn't have

36:46

to respond the way your brain would

36:48

respond to

36:50

it. So now the rate will respond the way your experiences would

36:52

teach you to respond to it. She just

36:54

has to respond the way she is. And

36:56

your job is to connect with her.

37:00

in that moment. Try to circumvent that fight or flight

37:02

and realize being there with her.

37:04

Although it's harder for you,

37:07

Remember, being tough isn't the easy thing.

37:09

It's taking the more challenging road,

37:12

but the reward lies at the end of

37:14

that too. if you're able to discipline yourself to say, no. She doesn't have to come to

37:16

my cartoon world. Let me go meet her where she

37:18

is. What you'll find is a

37:20

radical shift in her

37:22

feeling Healing. and my guess

37:24

is less of a desire to say

37:26

things so intensely because

37:28

she'll

37:28

more likely feel hard. Mhmm.

37:30

Now when it comes to these three steps of

37:33

yield theory, listen, validate, explore options.

37:35

Let's go into them

37:37

a little bit. When it comes

37:40

to listening, I think a lot of people

37:42

think, oh, I know how to listen. But in

37:44

your book, walking through anger, you

37:46

really break it down and you

37:48

talk about Listen, not just to the

37:50

verbal dimension of what's

37:52

happening, but how you

37:54

really presence listening

37:56

in a multidimensional way. So share some

37:59

about that, the deeper dimensions of

38:01

listening to someone. Yes.

38:04

Yes. I will. The the listen, validate, and

38:06

explore options, I just want Explore it to onset.

38:08

It's so easy to be skeptical

38:10

of others. It's so easy for

38:13

us to someone presents them. That's Conte. We can pick apart.

38:15

But can we really be skeptical of

38:18

ourselves, of our own egos? So when I was

38:20

trying to think about what's the

38:22

essence of your theory? I was like, what what

38:24

action is? I mean, I sit in the chair and talk to

38:26

people or I stand up and talk to people. What do

38:28

I do? And these were the

38:30

three things I really realize. These are the

38:32

actions. Listen,

38:33

validate Explore explore

38:36

options. And I was speaking one time to five hundred mental health specialists

38:38

and a woman came up to me at the break and she was

38:40

real condescending. She looked to me

38:42

and she

38:42

goes, that's her big theory, three

38:46

I said, yes. But if you think about it, all Bruce Lee ever

38:48

did was move block and hit. He did pretty

38:50

well for himself. So So

38:53

we might know, like you say, we might know

38:55

the word listen and say, I know how to

38:57

listen. But I

38:58

think it's how you listen, how you Validate,

39:00

and how you explore options. So to go listening more

39:03

the way I visualize

39:05

it, think of a box. Think

39:07

of a big box, like maybe the size

39:09

of a room. If you're

39:11

standing on one side of that box, you can

39:14

only see one, maybe

39:16

two sides of that box. And

39:18

if you could visualize that what people

39:20

are saying you. They're talking to you from another side of the

39:22

box. Let me go

39:24

further and say,

39:25

imagine that this box On

39:28

each side of the box, there are ever changing images,

39:30

completely changing constantly. So even

39:32

if you go around and try

39:34

to see that person's side,

39:37

there's going to be other stuff on another side

39:39

that you don't see. If we

39:41

can realize every time we listen to

39:43

people, we are only seeing one or

39:45

two sides of the box and there is always more. Then we move

39:47

from listening with ego, like, I know what

39:49

they're gonna say. I know what this

39:51

is all about. And then

39:53

we start to listen from essence and

39:56

say, what I use what I call even in

39:58

the book humble

39:59

curiosity. Like, teach me about your side of

40:02

the box. But now we have to do this Tammy, now we have listen

40:04

because and we have to realize

40:06

there's no way we can

40:08

ever fully

40:10

see another person's side of the box.

40:12

And I, of course, used the box as

40:14

a reference to the human psyche.

40:16

we

40:17

can never see fully. So we can only

40:19

see our own

40:20

fully. So

40:22

if you can approach people and begin to

40:24

listen to them as though they're on another side of

40:26

the box, The only way to understand what's

40:28

happening on that side is to actually

40:31

listen to them and not think, well, I've

40:33

been to all sides of the box. I know

40:35

it all. Well, you can't know at all because as soon as

40:37

you're on one side, you're automatically not seeing what's

40:39

going on the other side. And this

40:41

puts people in a

40:44

vulnerable position If their ego says, nope, I wanna prove to people that

40:46

I I have those experiences.

40:48

I know what you're going through. Then they're

40:50

done that.

40:52

Those are all very invalidating statements. Like,

40:54

you have their answers, you have not only

40:56

your experiences, but their experiences

40:58

too. And that position of arrogance,

41:02

really adds the conflict, it doesn't

41:04

lessen it. So I say

41:06

Listen humility and say, imagine

41:09

someone something and the only way for you to know it

41:11

is to truly listen. Does that resonate? Yeah. It

41:14

sounds so what you're saying, I wanna

41:15

check this one part out,

41:18

is that even if you listen really, really

41:20

carefully, you may be

41:22

able to see what they're

41:24

seeing, feel what they're feeling

41:26

to some high

41:28

level of approximation, but it will never be a

41:30

hundred percent because it's changing and

41:32

because it's happening to them. and

41:35

that that's part of the deep humility that

41:37

you'll never fully know it. Is

41:39

that correct? Exactly. That's in

41:42

a hundred percent So

41:43

I don't say, well, I understand. I say,

41:45

I understand what you're explaining to me. It's

41:47

like, I

41:48

understand my own sense of the word anxiety.

41:50

I know my own experience excited, but

41:52

I would never say to someone who's having a panic attack. I know what

41:54

I know what you're going through because I don't know what

41:56

they're going through. I know my own experience of

41:59

experiencing

41:59

panic attacks. I don't know that

42:02

person's experience. And

42:04

so that again comes back to that humility

42:06

of setting our ego aside trying

42:08

to show others what we know, and instead truly being

42:10

there for them. Yeah. You know, it's interesting

42:12

when I was thinking about these

42:15

deeper dimensions of listening. Listen

42:18

thinking about different things you

42:20

reference in walking through

42:22

anger, like tone of voice is

42:24

important so people know that you're listening

42:26

Listen body language is

42:29

important, eye contact. But what's interesting

42:31

is those are all kind of

42:33

behavioral things. I could do all

42:35

those things Insights. and miss

42:38

the point you're making right

42:40

here, which is the humility to

42:42

not ever presume I have it a

42:44

hundred percent correct. That's

42:46

very powerful.

42:47

Thank you. And it's like it's beyond

42:50

validating to hear you articulated

42:52

that accurately, like

42:54

that's exactly what I had hoped to share is exactly that.

42:56

We are even loves to convince us we

42:58

have the answers.

43:00

Asymmetric

43:01

insight is the psychological

43:04

concept that we we believe we're

43:06

really deep and mysterious,

43:08

but other people especially those who disagree

43:10

with us are shallow and

43:12

predictable. Right. In other

43:14

words, we believe when people disagree

43:16

with us that we see all sides of

43:18

the box but they just don't see our side. Obviously, if they saw our

43:20

side, obviously, they would believe what we

43:22

believe. Right. But that's

43:24

it's it's such a position of arrogance to

43:28

think that the truth is enlightenment comes from anyone anywhere at

43:30

any time. And sometimes

43:32

that means even in the depth

43:34

of someone who you perceive

43:36

to be completely

43:38

different from the way

43:40

you're journeying through life.

43:42

And that person also holds that

43:45

that that

43:45

divine space in them as

43:48

well. Now in these three steps,

43:50

which just for the record, I don't think that

43:52

this is Listen, really simplistic,

43:54

not at all. I think incredibly

43:56

deep to become masterful. One

43:58

thing I learned from your work

44:00

about the second step of validation

44:03

You write the primary purpose

44:06

of validation is connection.

44:08

I thought that was really powerful because sometimes I

44:10

think when I'm like saying things back to people,

44:13

My primary purpose is to convince them

44:15

I heard what they said so that we

44:17

could please move on. I'm not really

44:19

interested in validating them. I just want them to say I heard

44:21

what you said. Can we please move on to part

44:23

I like, which is fixing the problem.

44:25

You know, so that's interesting that that's

44:27

really the goal of validation is to

44:30

connect

44:30

someone with someone. It

44:31

really is. That's the essence of

44:34

what we're about. We're I talk a little

44:36

bit about in the book, but, you know, there was a

44:38

great theory

44:40

hypothesis for why Neanderthals

44:42

might have died out while homo sapiens

44:44

lived on, they discovered

44:46

that even though Neanderthals

44:49

had bigger brains, that because they were bigger,

44:51

physically bigger, and they really live at this kind of

44:54

isolated mountain top ranges. They needed to

44:56

have better eyesight. They were physically so

44:58

they had

45:00

a bigger back

45:00

of their brain area for the eyesight coordination and a smaller

45:03

part of their brain devoted to

45:05

social interaction. So the

45:07

theory, the hypothesis was maybe

45:09

they died out because – and most of burial

45:11

grounds are smaller groups. So maybe

45:14

they died out because they didn't realize – maybe

45:16

we realize just how much we need

45:18

each other. whereas

45:18

they might not have been such a priority for them. So

45:21

this human connection, this

45:23

might be deeply biological that

45:25

we want to connect with

45:29

others.

45:29

Mhmm. Help our listeners understand some

45:31

of the right ways and

45:33

maybe the not as skillful ways. We

45:35

could say skillful

45:38

not as skillful ways of validating

45:40

someone. Like when you're having a conflict or in

45:41

any situation Conflict you're

45:43

trying to meet

45:46

them. I think

45:47

the wrong way is to and you

45:49

set it in such a lighthearted way.

45:50

Like, I love that you set

45:53

it perfectly. Like, your real goal

45:56

is to listen this to say, okay, I'm gonna

45:58

validate you to shut you up right now,

45:59

basically. That's not the right way to do it. If you're

46:02

validating saying, let me see.

46:04

You're seeing something I'm not seeing. You see, I look at it that

46:06

way. If someone disagrees with me and I maybe

46:08

I feel strongly about a situation.

46:11

and someone disagrees. My brain

46:14

jumps to what is it

46:16

that they're seeing that I'm not Healing?

46:19

because it's And so I really want to listen and

46:21

validate and and make sure I'm hearing accurately

46:24

what they're saying. Validation

46:26

Validate, no. It's like acknowledgment

46:28

of what others are going through. So yes, it definitely is that

46:30

of what they're saying. You're acknowledging that you're

46:33

seeing it. But gosh, does

46:36

it

46:36

Conte Of course,

46:37

many people, and I'm one of them,

46:40

are concerned about the

46:42

growing divisiveness

46:44

that many of us are experiencing in

46:46

American culture, whether it's political divisiveness or

46:50

divisiveness around

46:52

various how

46:54

do you think yield theory in the work that

46:55

you do could apply to

46:58

people having discourse around

47:00

differences of opinion? How would it

47:02

change discourse?

47:04

So Yes. I believe that it's the I honestly

47:06

believe it's the key, at

47:08

least it's the key that resonates with

47:11

me. that if we really listen

47:13

to other people that we

47:16

urgently

47:16

disagree with and say, you

47:19

know what? you're seeing something I'm not seeing, like

47:21

teach me, but we don't. We only listen for

47:23

what we want to hear. We

47:25

use confirmation bias. So that's kind of maybe

47:27

wrong listen you're using confirmation bias, in other

47:30

words, you're looking to hear what you want to

47:32

hear. And of course, we are

47:34

human beings

47:36

we we operate

47:37

on a continuum when it comes

47:39

to emotions,

47:39

opinions, thoughts, all that stuff to

47:42

continuum. So when you disagree with others

47:44

Listen this

47:46

discourse, it's saying, well, you need to see

47:48

my side of the box. Not let

47:50

me honestly see your side. not

47:53

let me see your side so I can prove to

47:55

you your experience is wrong, but let

47:57

me see your side. There's

47:59

a

47:59

reason one thing led to another in the story of

48:02

everyone's And

48:03

when we can lead with capacity

48:05

and get humble, genuine

48:08

curiosity, I think that would

48:10

radically shift discourse in America and in the

48:12

world. Howard

48:12

Bauchner: Now, I know

48:14

you also, this is maybe

48:18

I

48:19

don't understand enough about how yield theory

48:20

can be applied in a lot of different

48:22

situations because I know you also

48:25

work with athletes and

48:27

you help top athletic performers.

48:30

How does yield theory work

48:32

in a situation like that?

48:34

Well,

48:35

I'll do what I did with

48:37

the professional basketball team the other day.

48:39

I talked to them about

48:42

how ego can interfere with team

48:44

functioning. If my ego is, this

48:46

is about me and what I can do,

48:50

I'm not going to operate. We're not going to operate as

48:52

a team as effectively as if we

48:54

can learn to set our egos aside

48:57

and

48:57

really operate as one. So when

48:59

it comes to sports,

49:02

that's a

49:03

real powerful piece. because a huge

49:05

part of yield theory, one of the fundamental components is conscious education.

49:08

And conscious education is

49:10

about teaching teaching. So I

49:12

know for me, it was never enough just to listen and

49:14

validate Listen. explore options. Where

49:16

can we go from here? What can you learn?

49:18

What insight can you get from this

49:20

moment forward? that really

49:22

shift what you're

49:23

experiencing. And so I

49:26

do the same thing with athletes. Athletes are

49:28

human beings. There are

49:30

moments when A

49:30

huge part of sports psychology is helping people clear

49:33

away mental clutter. And

49:35

so yielding with

49:36

them, helping them feel not judged

49:39

safe enough to say what's going on. That's a huge

49:41

part

49:41

of it, but it's also teaching them new

49:44

things. Can you give me an example from the world

49:46

of athletics? Yes.

49:48

Okay. So

49:50

let's say that someone's

49:54

in a – they'll just say basketball, so I'll just look at

49:56

them the other day. let's say,

49:58

someone's angry at a risk

50:00

for not

50:02

making the call that he thought should have been

50:04

made. Sure. He's living in his

50:06

cartoon world in that moment. Like, you should

50:08

have called that foul. You didn't. Now,

50:10

what do we know about a fast paced

50:12

moving game it's already moving down the court.

50:14

So the more you're standing there arguing, not

50:17

only you're not involved in the present

50:19

moment and the play that's happening, but

50:21

you're also in danger of

50:24

getting, you know, fouls will hurt not only you,

50:26

but your team, all

50:28

because you're trying to live in a

50:30

cartoon world of what should have happened rather than saying, this did happen.

50:32

Now what's the best, most effective

50:34

way to communicate this to the

50:38

ref? so that should it come up again in the future, it'll be take be

50:40

helpful to me and my team.

50:42

But you have to be able to

50:44

control that emotion, have that self discipline.

50:47

Listen I tell lots

50:49

of Sunrise stories for the

50:51

for the guys and the men and

50:53

women. When I when I were the

50:55

athletes, like, I tell lots of the

50:57

samurai extremely self disciplined in

51:00

their art. And so it's

51:01

learning how to learn about

51:02

yourself, what gets in the way of

51:06

you really living in at one with the

51:08

essence of who you are because

51:10

the state of flow doesn't involve thoughts

51:14

the state of flows involves being present. So

51:16

in any performance, we want to be, we

51:18

don't want to be sitting there, thinking about the

51:20

performance, we want to be doing it.

51:23

Conte you tell me the

51:25

Samurais story? Yes. So

51:25

there was

51:28

a summarized who

51:30

was, oh, I wanna tell you this one.

51:32

There was a young man who was

51:34

in a monastery and he was being

51:37

picked on. is being

51:38

picked on by the other people in the monastery. He got so upset. So

51:41

he goes and he says

51:43

to the master, he says,

51:46

I'm being picked on by the other people in this monastery. I

51:48

thought they were all holy and

51:49

they weren't supposed to do this

51:51

kind of stuff. Well,

51:53

the Listen sat there in silence.

51:56

So he said, I don't think you heard me. I'm

51:58

telling you they're picking on me. They're they're

51:59

saying I'm this. They're saying I'm bad. They're supposed to

52:01

be holy. a master

52:03

sat there in silence. So now

52:06

this young monk started thinking, well, oh, so

52:08

you're taking their side. Oh, I see how

52:10

it is. You're supposed to be so

52:12

holy, but now you're taking their side. Who do you think you are? So the

52:14

master says, give me your legs.

52:18

the monk says, what what are you talking about? I'm trying to tell you picking on me

52:21

and the master says, cut off your legs

52:23

and give them to me now.

52:26

And the monk says, no. No. And

52:28

the master says, why is it that

52:30

you defend your body

52:32

so

52:34

fiercely? give away your mind so easily.

52:36

So and I realized I

52:38

told you a Zen monks story, not a Samurais story,

52:40

but I realized it's I love this concept and

52:42

give me your legs. I

52:45

talked about this with athletes all the time. What what ways do you give

52:47

away your legs? In what ways do you

52:49

give away your mind?

52:54

this is a – it's a

52:56

wonderful starting point, but then we can come back to

52:58

that time and again. How are you giving

53:00

away your legs? I

53:01

was going to say, let's think about that in terms of the

53:03

discourse that we -- when we talk about

53:05

things. How often do we give away our power

53:07

in two seconds that someone

53:09

disagrees with our thoughts or our beliefs or our

53:11

politics or our religion. The something

53:14

happens. We're giving away our

53:16

legs. We're we're

53:17

saying, oh, I can't believe you

53:19

would see things differently from me. I

53:22

think I would much prefer to take the more humble

53:24

path of saying, obviously, you've had different life

53:26

experiences that let you to believe in what

53:28

you believe, and I love to learn

53:30

about it. And what's and what's

53:32

interesting is, and this isn't, you're not doing

53:34

it just to get others to listen

53:36

to you. but the the byproduct is people do end up listening

53:38

because they're like, okay, you listen, you genuinely

53:40

Listen, and they feel heard

53:44

now they're less likely to be defensive and more likely to say, tell me

53:46

that your perspective. Howard Bauchner: No,

53:48

it's interesting this point

53:49

you've made a couple

53:52

times about how we get

53:54

so invested in our

53:56

cartoon world, you call it, the

53:58

world that we think

53:59

should be happening versus what's

54:02

actually happening. And, you know,

54:03

what occurred to me is probably most people

54:05

are living in a cartoon world all day

54:08

long. I mean, we're -- Okay. -- about

54:10

what we think, you know, this, that,

54:12

or the other thing.

54:13

Yes. Yes. I really I

54:16

really believe about a month ago

54:18

because came out of meditation. I was traveling or

54:20

called my wife. I said, you know what?

54:22

I honestly think, you know, I try to simplify

54:24

stuff all the time. I really think it all

54:26

comes down the cartoon world because think

54:29

about it, like, if you

54:30

really think this shouldn't

54:31

have happened, every every should that comes

54:33

in your mind until you start to practice

54:35

it enough and then you realize this is, this

54:37

is what's happening. This person

54:39

is responding this way right now. And

54:42

so again, people will say

54:44

cognitively, oh, meet people where they

54:46

are. That makes sense. but can you

54:48

actually do it? Not your cart too will to meet

54:50

them where they actually are. Because

54:52

once you can do that, it radically shifts

54:54

the way you interact. Okay,

54:56

there's one other area I want to talk to

54:58

you about, Christian, which is your

55:00

book walking through anger, a new

55:02

design for

55:03

Conflict, in an emotionally charged world

55:06

deals mostly

55:06

with how to

55:09

help other people

55:10

when they're super angry

55:12

about something. What do you do? What approach

55:15

do you take if you're a counselor, if

55:17

you're working in the helping professions,

55:19

or just with people in your life. But I'm

55:21

curious, let's say someone's listening right

55:23

now,

55:23

and they

55:26

feel angry about something

55:28

that's happening in the world. Maybe

55:30

it's the environmental crisis we're

55:32

in. They're angry about it. In their

55:35

cartoon world, should not be happening. And

55:37

they might even be offended that we're

55:39

saying in their cartoon world.

55:41

It's the world where the earth

55:44

is respected and loved and

55:46

cared for, and they're angry about

55:48

this. How can you help that

55:50

person walk through

55:52

their anger? Well,

55:52

I would say this, oftentimes

55:54

we have a shared cartoon

55:57

world. So we might see,

55:59

I might say, for instance, I

56:02

i see see people who do

56:05

the most horrific things to others.

56:07

So for me, the

56:09

pain humans cause each other, that probably

56:12

trumps the physical

56:14

violence that occurs all over.

56:17

This is in my cartoon world, I

56:19

would tend to say that shouldn't

56:21

be happening. The real world is

56:23

it is happening. And so if I go in the

56:25

cartoon world and say it shouldn't be happening, what am I really doing? Am

56:27

I jumping up on AAA

56:30

pedestal, a soapbox and

56:32

saying, hey, you shouldn't be

56:34

being violent right now. You shouldn't

56:36

be torturing and hurting each other. You

56:38

shouldn't okay. Great. It's not

56:40

actually making a difference. Or do I I

56:42

say, you know what the real world is,

56:44

people do hurt each other. They cause each other a

56:46

lot of pain. And if I really

56:48

wanna help them change that. I

56:50

gotta find out where they are and go meet them

56:52

there. So if you're standing on top

56:54

of a mountain, I use this analogy

56:56

in a book. and and you scream you say, you climb all the way at

56:58

top of the mountain. And people on the bottom

57:00

of the mountain, they're lost,

57:02

they can't then, they can't find

57:04

their way. you can stand

57:06

and scream all that time. You should be up

57:08

here. You should see what I see. You should be

57:10

in this perspective. You should have gone the way

57:12

I went. Great. Guess what? You could say the best things in the world, but if they're at

57:14

the bottom of the mountain, they can't even hear you.

57:16

So you have to have the discipline to leave where

57:18

you are

57:20

and go meet them where they are. And I can I

57:22

know people when I say they'll say, well, they should I

57:24

shouldn't have to go meet them there. They should

57:27

meet me halfway. That's cartoon

57:29

world. The reality is, you're the one

57:31

who can control you. And if these are

57:33

the people you're encountering, the job is to

57:36

them where they are. and see the world

57:38

from their perspective. You

57:40

know, Healing through anger does help

57:42

you handle others.

57:44

But honestly, I used geode theory to put this book out there in the

57:46

universe. I thought, what's

57:48

the easiest way for people to

57:50

truly learn about what's going on with

57:54

them? Well, people our egos are fragile,

57:56

and we like to say what other people can

57:58

fix. So when you read these

57:59

concepts, you say,

58:02

oh, yes. Other people do this. Other people do this. Other people well,

58:04

I do this. I do this. Read

58:06

a minute. I think this relates to me.

58:09

and the two kinds of people think becomes really

58:11

real for you because you realize, you

58:13

know what, when you really learn

58:16

that people, they have an entire

58:18

world that you don't

58:20

see, that impacts

58:20

how you handle that.

58:23

When you realize not

58:25

just teaching others, that every emotional experience is gonna have a

58:27

beginning middle and end, but now you start to be

58:30

mindful of that in your own

58:32

experience of an

58:34

intense emotion. And now you don't

58:36

have to be as reactive.

58:38

Actions can't be undone,

58:40

but when we, you know, the

58:42

emotions are going to come and go, but actions can't

58:44

be undone. So I

58:46

believe that people will

58:47

read this book thinking, oh, yes, I

58:49

can help others with this. The byproduct is

58:51

gonna be without their ego

58:53

being recognizing it. they're going to

58:55

be learning about themselves intensely. And there are

58:58

parts that I just straight up teach that

59:00

are things

59:00

that most many people don't know

59:02

of course bias as soon as we hear them and as simple we go, oh,

59:05

I knew that. But a minute prior,

59:07

we weren't living by that and

59:10

knowing that. Alright, Christian, to

59:11

conclude, our program here

59:14

is called insights at

59:16

the Insights. And

59:18

part of it is I'm always curious to know

59:21

what someone's growing edge

59:23

is even in relationship to

59:25

the work that they

59:28

teach. And when it comes to yield theory and

59:30

living it in all aspects of

59:32

your life, what would you say is

59:36

your edge?

59:37

I

59:41

would say

59:42

that I recognize

59:44

I'd like to share this

59:47

as my daughter shared with us me recently best

59:49

lesson I ever taught her, and I think

59:51

I'm mindful of this a lot.

59:54

If I were to give you

59:56

a bucket, and say, what do you want to put in that

59:58

bucket? I asked you, what would you put in it? Can

59:59

I let me ask you, Tammy. What would you put in the bucket

1:00:02

if I gave you

1:00:04

a bucket? I

1:00:04

could put anything Insights? Anything you

1:00:06

want. Oh, I'd

1:00:08

put, like, beautiful stones

1:00:12

diamonds and crystals yeah.

1:00:15

Maybe some wonderful. Yeah.

1:00:17

Beautiful. Wonderful. Okay. So you

1:00:19

would have beautiful stones in your bucket then.

1:00:21

Right? Yep. What you put in

1:00:23

your bucket will be in your bucket? Well,

1:00:25

the same is true with your

1:00:27

mind. If you fill your mind with anger and violence, if

1:00:29

you fill your mind with the things that

1:00:31

anger you, you're gonna be angry. Does you

1:00:33

fill your mind

1:00:35

with peace? what we master what we practice. If you feel your

1:00:38

mind with peace, you're much more likely to

1:00:40

have peace. So I think

1:00:42

my edge is my

1:00:44

self talk understanding, you

1:00:46

know, I meditate, I

1:00:48

do things like I constantly use the

1:00:50

phrase Listen in my internal

1:00:53

dialogue. when there's chaos, when I encounter chaos, when

1:00:55

I encounter things that I don't want to be in

1:00:57

my psyche. I'm proactive

1:01:00

about the self talk that

1:01:02

I have. And I

1:01:04

recognize, I think probably

1:01:06

the biggest strength that I have

1:01:08

is I really don't judge people.

1:01:10

Like, I really understand that I

1:01:12

don't know what other people are going through. There's always something more.

1:01:14

There's more to the story. So it

1:01:17

helps me set my ego

1:01:20

aside faster. And I think that's

1:01:22

very disarming for people to be

1:01:24

around. I think that's the edge, but it

1:01:26

doesn't happen because I'm

1:01:28

secretly saying I'm being nice, but I really do believe I have the

1:01:30

answers. Like, I'm really thinking, I

1:01:32

don't know. I'm giving you the best

1:01:34

I can. in

1:01:36

this moment. But I'm open that in the next second, I'm gonna learn

1:01:38

something that's gonna flip my perspective on its

1:01:40

edge, and I'm okay with that.

1:01:44

I'm curious And

1:01:45

I believe, especially when it comes to the

1:01:48

discourse around anger and all these different

1:01:50

things, that it becomes

1:01:52

our arrogance that gets in the way. And when we

1:01:54

can be genuinely

1:01:56

curious. Like, teach me teach me about your

1:01:58

side. Teach me about it. I

1:02:00

really would

1:02:00

do wanna learn. So I'm open the feedback

1:02:02

when people see things about me.

1:02:04

and I'm really curious about other people

1:02:06

in the human psyche. Mhmm. I've

1:02:08

been speaking with doctor Christian

1:02:11

Conti. He's the Creator

1:02:14

of Yield Theory and

1:02:16

the author of the new

1:02:18

book walking through anger, a

1:02:20

new design for confronting

1:02:22

conflict in an emotionally

1:02:25

charged world. The

1:02:27

yield theory approach sounds

1:02:29

simple, but it's really

1:02:31

deep. and really useful. I recommend

1:02:34

it. And if you'd

1:02:35

like to watch Insights at

1:02:37

the edge on video, and participate in

1:02:39

after the show Q and A conversations

1:02:41

with featured presenters and have

1:02:43

the chance to

1:02:44

ask your question

1:02:47

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