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1:16

In this episode of Insights

1:18

at the Edge, my guest

1:20

is Dr. Judith Orloff. Dr.

1:23

Judith Orloff is a New York

1:26

Times bestselling author, psychiatrist,

1:28

and a leading voice in

1:30

the fields of medicine, psychiatry,

1:33

empathy, and intuitive

1:35

development. She's a member

1:37

of the UCLA Psychiatric

1:39

Clinical Faculty and

1:42

has been called the godmother

1:44

of the empath movement. Her

1:47

book, which sounds true,

1:49

The Empath's Survival Guide, Life

1:52

Strategies for Sensitive People, was

1:55

a breakthrough book that has

1:57

helped tens of thousands of

1:59

empaths. claim their

2:02

sensitivities and learn how to

2:04

care for themselves. She's the

2:07

author of Thriving as an

2:09

Empath, the creator of

2:11

the Empath's Empowerment deck,

2:14

and Judith has written a

2:16

new book. It's called The Genius

2:19

of Empathy. Practical

2:21

skills to heal your sensitive

2:23

self, your relationships, and the

2:26

world with a foreword

2:28

by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

2:31

This is what we'll be talking

2:33

about, The Genius of Empathy. Judith,

2:35

welcome! Thank you.

2:38

Good to be here. Hi, everyone. All

2:41

right. Bright here at the start. Tell

2:44

me about this title, The

2:46

Genius of Empathy. The

2:48

title itself. Yeah, The Genius

2:51

of Empathy is about empathy

2:53

as a healing power that you

2:56

can tap into to create

2:58

a genius in your life and

3:00

to be able to shift the energy

3:02

in your body to heal personally

3:06

through your relationships or the world.

3:09

Usually, empathy is spoken about more

3:11

as an abstract concept or something

3:14

that you show once. I'm

3:16

talking about it as a practice that

3:19

you have every day

3:21

to increase your open-heartedness

3:24

and your healing abilities in your

3:26

own body and with others. You

3:30

know, it's interesting that you

3:32

said to increase your open-heartedness because

3:34

as I was engaging with The

3:36

Genius of Empathy, that's

3:39

what I felt again and again.

3:41

I felt this impact happening right

3:44

at the level of the heart. This

3:46

may be kind of like

3:48

a very obvious question, but what

3:50

is the connection between

3:53

the physical organism

3:55

of the heart, the energetic heart

3:57

center, and the emotional body of the heart center?

4:02

Well, empathy opens the heart. It's

4:05

one of the actions that we can

4:07

take to open our heart and to

4:09

shift out of an overactive mind because

4:12

there's the mind that probably

4:14

won't want to have a lot of

4:16

empathy because it feels justified in being

4:18

right and staying hurt and

4:20

not wanting to heal. But

4:23

learning how to shift, and this is what

4:25

I want to teach people, to shift out

4:28

of the overactive mind into

4:30

a state of empathy which in

4:32

turn opens the heart and

4:34

creates healing inside of you. If

4:37

you're feeling anxious, let's say, and

4:39

you perform an empathic act, that

4:41

will trigger your own healing and

4:44

your own warmth from the heart

4:46

chakra which will extend throughout the

4:48

body. Well, you

4:51

mentioned you want to help people who have overactive

4:53

minds. So this, I think, is a

4:55

good place for us to start our

4:57

conversation. So many of us

4:59

find us, especially at this time, when

5:02

change is happening so quickly and

5:04

there feels like there's so much

5:07

acceleration, disruption, whether

5:10

it's insomnia or we're caught

5:12

worrying, what would you suggest

5:14

at that moment in

5:16

time we're aware of that and we

5:19

want to shift to

5:21

more of an empathic way of

5:23

feeling ourselves? Yeah, so

5:26

that's a beautiful way of phrasing it because you

5:28

want to be aware of yourself, first of all.

5:31

You want to have an awareness of

5:33

your body's energies and where you're at.

5:35

And if you're feeling empathy, overwhelm, or

5:37

you're feeling like you're overthinking, then

5:39

you could consciously say to yourself,

5:42

I'm going to shift now out

5:44

of my head into my heart

5:47

and you could begin to practice self-empathy, which

5:49

is one of the chapters in the book.

5:52

And It's about showing yourself empathy for

5:54

whatever happened that day. You Can always

5:56

start with the day in a very

5:58

concrete way. There you know

6:01

you did a great job at

6:03

a hard situation. It's okay that

6:05

I didn't turn out perfectly. Know

6:07

you did a great job or.

6:10

Even. Though you said something that

6:12

you regret, you could always go

6:14

back to the person and make

6:16

in a man. And that's the

6:18

beauty of self empathy. But it's

6:21

about self soothing. And. Bring

6:23

a this bomb of empathy to

6:25

yourself, to your poor, overwork mind

6:27

and to shift out of that

6:30

and as a heart. So.

6:32

That you can. Forgive.

6:35

Yourself and clear your energy and

6:37

do something nice. if you're over

6:39

thinking at three in the morning

6:41

and year in a one a

6:43

to calm down. This is a

6:45

way to shift your energy so

6:47

that you could find that pieces

6:49

and com within. Nurtured

6:51

as you, you use this interesting

6:53

phrase: if you're feeling empathy overwhelm,

6:56

can you tell me more? What?

6:58

What is that? Else

7:00

well I'm a psychiatrist an an

7:02

empty house and so I I

7:04

both have the scientific knowledge and

7:07

they. Have begun

7:09

and house and I know very well

7:11

as an empire. What? Empathy

7:13

Overwhelming as it's when too

7:15

many things are coming at

7:17

you to pass their site.

7:19

Smell sounds, people's movement demands.

7:23

Sounds. As though is just

7:25

excessive stimulation. That's a very painful state

7:28

and I get into that state and

7:30

airports had been in a airport where

7:32

to on best my vulnerable point I'm

7:35

but is a very painful kind of

7:37

thing and you don't wanna be in

7:39

it for too long. So if you're.

7:42

And am path or if you have

7:44

empathy and you notice that your overloaded

7:46

as soon as you possibly can you

7:48

need to start. Going. To

7:51

your room, Close the door. Take.

7:53

A brass may be close. The shades

7:56

of the latest too intense. and

7:58

to speak is to get quiet so

8:00

there's no excessive input coming in.

8:03

And while you're being quiet, you're saying

8:06

nice things to yourself and you're putting

8:08

your hand on your heart and shifting

8:10

into an empathic state

8:12

with your own body, like really feeling

8:14

how tired you are and

8:17

telling yourself it's okay, now is

8:19

the time you're going to repair

8:21

and replenish right now. And

8:23

so begin the repair process

8:27

through this time of being

8:29

alone and showing

8:31

yourself self-empathy and

8:34

decreasing all the stimuli, that's important.

8:37

You mentioned Judith that you're both

8:40

a psychiatrist and an empath.

8:42

When did you first discover, oh,

8:44

I'm an empath and name it

8:47

as such? I

8:50

discovered I was an empath as a little girl, but I

8:52

didn't have the word for it. So I had no idea

8:54

what it was. And I

8:57

was very sensitive. I would

8:59

feel things coming from people. I

9:02

would know certain intuitive things. I

9:04

couldn't go into crowded places or

9:06

shopping malls. I'd go in feeling

9:08

fine and walk out exhausted

9:11

or with some acre of pain

9:13

I didn't have before or anxious.

9:16

And I didn't really understand what

9:18

was going on. I just know I

9:20

wasn't good in those places. And

9:23

so I would talk to my mother who

9:25

was a doctor and she said, dear, just

9:27

get a thicker skin. You need

9:29

a thicker skin. You need to be stronger in

9:31

this world. And so I was

9:34

left with nothing really. I was left alone.

9:36

I was an only child and

9:38

I didn't know what to make of being an empath. And

9:41

it wasn't until many years

9:43

later really where I threw

9:47

my own work with myself and my

9:49

own therapy and

9:52

learning about various

9:54

aspects of energy and my spiritual

9:56

practice of Taoism, I began to...

10:00

understand things in energetic terms. And then

10:02

it's much easier to explain what's going

10:04

on with an empath as an empath.

10:06

And I began using that

10:09

word, you know, around that time.

10:11

And also in Star Trek, they

10:13

used it in one episode, I

10:15

remember this beautiful Diana Troy, the

10:17

character, I love her, she

10:19

always feels just feeling into everything

10:21

like an empath does. And

10:23

so it was, you know,

10:26

put in the media. I forget

10:28

what year that was. But it was I heard

10:30

it there, there too. And it made a lot

10:32

of sense. What enabled

10:34

you to start relating to

10:36

your sensitivity, not

10:39

as some kind of fault,

10:42

like, Oh, you should get a

10:44

thicker skin, but something that you

10:46

felt you could claim and

10:48

that had genius in it. Yeah,

10:53

well, I spent a lot of

10:55

years running for my sensitivities, I

10:57

got involved with, you know, in

10:59

my adolescence, drugs, and everything to

11:01

shut it off. I wasn't,

11:03

you know, at all making

11:06

peace with it. But because as you know,

11:08

many of the mentors in my life who

11:10

have taught me a lot of wisdom, and

11:12

I really was learning that

11:14

in order for me to be whole, it was

11:17

not only okay, but a beautiful thing for

11:19

me to incorporate my empathy and my intuition

11:22

into my life. And then I had to

11:24

do it to be whole and had to

11:26

do it to be me. And so

11:29

it was through that kind of

11:31

loving support and empathy that, you

11:34

know, I came into my own and

11:36

my own power and I was ready

11:38

for it, you know, later on in

11:40

life, know, which was, you know, in

11:42

probably in my early 30s,

11:45

no late 20s, I began

11:47

really working with it a little bit more and

11:49

owning it. But I didn't own it

11:51

for a long time, because

11:53

I was brought up in a way to

11:55

believe that it was weird. And it was

11:57

strange. And you don't want to show people

12:00

They're. So. Quit. Now

12:02

It's it's a whole different world. You

12:04

know? For me, because it's it's It's

12:06

a beautiful thing that I want to

12:08

encourage everyone to develop. If you're in

12:10

L Tat, If you're listening to this

12:12

and you'd want to develop your empathy.

12:15

Oh. Wherever you are on

12:17

the and that a spectrum either

12:19

in the center where you're happy

12:21

for other people's happiness or you're

12:23

sad for other people sadness or

12:25

up on the spectrum to an

12:28

Amd path where you're an emotional

12:30

spines and you tend to absorb

12:32

the energy of others are the

12:34

stress of others but you need

12:36

to learn techniques on how the

12:39

center yourself so you don't experience

12:41

empathy fatigue. That's the skill. Ah

12:43

one thing is to feel. Empathy.

12:45

The other is to work with

12:47

his in a healthy boundaries way.

12:50

Oh, and then you know I

12:52

I I be yeah, owning it.

12:54

and I'm certainly with my books.

12:57

See. The response of

12:59

all the people who have

13:01

been in the closet about

13:03

those and similar cast my

13:05

own and we were amazingly

13:07

similar. Oh and how it

13:09

feels to commands you year

13:11

and half power when you've

13:13

been so ashamed of it

13:15

all your life. Is.

13:18

A wonderful, wonderful thing.

13:20

So. Ah

13:24

I see all the good that comes

13:27

from it and the liberation that comes

13:29

from it and you'll have to be

13:31

an empire. This book is about foreign

13:33

past and and some for everyone there.

13:36

Different kinds of empathy you you might

13:38

have or your spouse or your friend

13:40

might have cognitive empathy. That's an empathy

13:42

more that comes to the mind where

13:45

I am sorry that happened to you

13:47

in l my hardest or I'm with

13:49

you You know what? That's not so

13:51

much my heart that would be an

13:54

emotional. and path or emotional empathy

13:56

some people to set cognitive empathy

13:58

and that's great And they

14:01

don't want to develop anything else. And that's fine

14:03

too. You go to

14:05

the kind of empathy that most moves

14:07

you and makes you feel whole. Empathy

14:10

is a very alive force inside your

14:12

body once you begin to activate it.

14:15

And you begin to know it as

14:17

an energy that you work with in

14:19

a healing sense. Now

14:21

there's a lot to go into here, Judith.

14:23

So I wanna begin with

14:25

these four styles of empathy

14:27

that you introduce in the

14:29

genius of empathy. You briefly

14:31

just mentioned the cognitive style,

14:34

the person who thinks

14:37

empathically. Yeah. Describe

14:40

that person to me. And let's go through

14:42

all four styles and maybe tell me like

14:44

the gifts and the challenges, if

14:46

you will, of each style, if that's okay. Yes,

14:50

the cognitive empath. I love

14:52

cognitive empathy. In fact, I

14:54

use the four

14:56

types, are cognitive empathy, emotional

14:59

empathy, intuitive empathy, and spiritual

15:01

empathy. They're just places

15:04

from which we come naturally when we

15:06

view other people, or you can have

15:08

more than one. And I love cognitive

15:10

empathy. It's a little bit easier than

15:12

the other one. It

15:15

really is because it doesn't demand

15:17

as much of you in terms

15:20

of being boundry and taking actions

15:22

for self-care. Cognitive

15:24

empathy is where you can be

15:26

with someone with your mind and then it

15:28

stays in your mind. No,

15:31

but many

15:33

analytic people have cognitive empathy. There

15:35

are a lot of engineers, attorneys,

15:37

I don't mean to stereotype, but

15:39

people who are brilliant in their

15:41

minds, they love the

15:44

cognitive empathy. They love, makes

15:46

them feel good about themselves as it should.

15:49

And it's a way to communicate to

15:52

other people. The only problem is

15:54

with cognitive empathy, the downside is

15:56

if you're listening to your

15:58

spouse, let's say talking about... you

16:00

know, some emotional event that happened.

16:03

And the cognitive empath might come in

16:05

and offer a solution too quickly. And

16:08

that's a problem because

16:10

it stops, it cuts

16:12

off the experience of the person expressing

16:15

what they're going through. And so when I

16:17

work with cognitive empaths, I teach

16:20

them to maybe go a little slower with

16:22

the solutions and just allow the person

16:24

to be for a while, you know,

16:26

and express themselves, not forever. You don't want

16:29

to let someone go on forever because you

16:31

have to put a limit to empathy.

16:34

But you don't

16:36

want to start saying solutions when the

16:38

person is crying, you know,

16:40

or you just want to pace it a

16:43

little bit differently. So

16:45

the cognitive empath is grounded,

16:48

consistent, intelligent,

16:53

very mental, loves

16:55

intellectual discourse. So there's so many

16:58

good things about them, but they're

17:00

not exactly emotionally as intelligent as

17:02

maybe some of the other types

17:05

because it's not really an interest

17:07

of theirs. You know, it's more

17:09

the mind is more their realm. So

17:12

the second, do you want me to go on a second time? I

17:15

do, I do. Let's move on to

17:17

the emotional or feeling empathic

17:20

style. Yeah, the

17:22

emotional empathic style. If

17:24

you relate to someone emotionally, they share something

17:26

that's going on in their life and your

17:29

heart opens to them and your body

17:31

starts getting closer to them. And

17:33

you're gushing with warm, loving feelings

17:36

for them. But the downside

17:38

of that is that you also may

17:40

be absorbing their pain,

17:42

which may be coming in with

17:44

that beautiful openness that you're showing

17:46

with them. But the primary mode

17:49

of emotional empathy is

17:51

through the heart and

17:53

it's through the emotions. And

17:57

the downside is of course, emotional

17:59

overload. And so you need

18:01

to learn how to set boundaries, set

18:03

time limits for listening with

18:06

empathy, only listen to

18:08

one subject at a time. I

18:10

always encourage people who are developing

18:12

empathic communication skills to stick to

18:14

one subject at a time, one

18:16

topic, because it's too overwhelming. If

18:18

you start, the door opens and

18:21

you start going into everything that's

18:23

bothering you, you'll never get through

18:25

to the other person. It's

18:27

one issue at a time

18:30

to be patient with that and communicate

18:32

it that way. And

18:36

the next kind of empathy is

18:38

intuitive empathy, where you intuitively

18:41

relate to people. You

18:44

sense your gut feeling, you sense

18:46

an aha or a knowing, or

18:50

you get information about people,

18:54

clairvoyant information or

18:58

any kind of intuitive information that gives

19:00

you more of an insight into

19:02

the person. That just may be who you

19:05

are. But the downside of

19:07

that is that you can go on intuitive

19:09

overload, where many of my

19:11

patients have just said, I've opened

19:13

up, but now there's too much information

19:15

coming in too fast. And

19:17

so you want to be able to have

19:20

an inner dialogue with yourself and

19:22

say, please slow

19:24

it down. This is a bit too fast

19:26

for me. And you can do

19:28

that. You could have an inner dialogue, or

19:31

depending on your spiritual views, you could

19:33

connect with the creator to

19:37

talk to, because from

19:40

my vantage point, there is a creator

19:42

and the one that's the Tao, the

19:45

one path in Taoism. So

19:48

it's something I connect to regularly.

19:52

And then the fourth style,

19:54

Judas, spiritual. The fourth style

19:56

is spiritual empathy, Which

19:58

is seeing the best. The

20:00

people connected with. Oh.

20:04

Their connection to the heart and

20:06

what's beautiful and give he and

20:08

service and lot of clergy a

20:11

big our spiritual and pass on

20:13

and ah it's just more of

20:15

a spiritually oriented lens through which

20:17

you see the world. Now

20:20

interestingly as you went through these four

20:23

types, what I noticed any said this

20:25

is you could be more than one.

20:27

I mean. How would you

20:29

identify? Yourself which of these

20:31

types applies? Maybe you could

20:33

rank them for us for

20:35

yourself. An exam.

20:38

Ah. That must mean that

20:40

I have some kind of saw. Native empathy

20:42

that I want them ranks, but we'll get

20:44

to me in a moment. When I started

20:46

with do. I say rank

20:48

them. I've never done it before.

20:50

that of probably intuitive empathy is

20:53

number one. Ah for

20:55

me. The most you want to

20:57

see. His number two.

21:00

Spear. Slanted the mood as a hard

21:02

one doesn't agree. Probably.

21:04

Up with a number one. and

21:08

candid event that they probably number of.

21:13

For. Me though, it's interesting rights.

21:15

as interesting as you approached

21:17

us and these for styles,

21:19

you, you are very high

21:21

in three of them, actually.

21:23

Ah, so that's interesting because

21:25

listeners may also have that

21:27

response and listening to these

21:29

and task styles that they're

21:31

very highly resonance with one,

21:33

two, or three perhaps styles.

21:35

Maybe that all for who

21:37

knows. right? And it's important

21:39

to other styles of your family or

21:42

your friends to so you know how

21:44

you kids in or relate with them.

21:48

What's the downside? We didn't

21:50

cover that of the spiritual

21:52

or designing. And pathak

21:54

type. They tend

21:57

to the risk getting ill

21:59

because they. So. Giving

22:03

the an enormous a larger like sense

22:05

that they give too much of their

22:07

energy and they become depleted and they

22:09

could become ill. but they might see

22:11

it in a way that this is

22:13

just the price you pay for. For.

22:16

Loving. And I don't

22:18

happen to agree with that. I

22:20

think you can be extremely compassionate

22:22

and and pathak without sacrificing your

22:24

own health. But

22:27

the downside is serve the sacrifice of

22:29

the health and wellbeing and feeling that

22:31

that's just part of the job. Description.

22:35

So in listening to talk

22:37

about in general the downsides

22:39

of many different aspects of

22:41

empathy it seems like this:

22:43

whether it's overwhelm or over

22:46

of giving, or ah, over

22:48

extending to the point of

22:50

being a martyr and you're

22:52

saying oh, you're allowed. To

22:54

have boundaries and back to need

22:56

to have boundaries. You need to take care

22:58

of yourself. Give us some of

23:00

shooters or a los. M

23:03

Past tool box for

23:06

having the boundaries. I

23:08

need to shield us much.

23:12

Ah yes! Being able to

23:14

say though is very. Important.

23:17

And and to be able to say no it's

23:19

highly even if you say it was empathy I

23:21

it's I did and a passing know. Oh I

23:23

wish I could do this. I really can't because

23:25

I'm just too tired and I need to go

23:27

to Ban. Know. I could say it

23:29

like that or I can't do that. You're

23:31

asking way too much in the don't know

23:34

how tired I am. And.

23:36

Us other do feel a different tone of

23:38

voice and where where i would become a

23:40

from so as you want to it to

23:42

express the boundary if you can do it.

23:45

From. Your heart at the same time

23:47

as saying no. That's very important but

23:49

you you have to learn how to say. Now

23:51

you have to learn how that set limits. Oh.

23:55

And you, you have to grow

23:57

up in the sense that. You

24:00

know, I know many mps are afraid

24:02

of disappointing people. Know. They always

24:04

want to please people and are afraid

24:07

and can't tolerate have somebody has disappointed

24:09

and this is just part of begins

24:11

old. Fewer than a disappoint people. You.

24:14

Are as as part of the package

24:16

of saying no Note: someone like what

24:18

is it, do something really badly but

24:20

you're unable to do it. They'll be

24:23

disappointed is Lottie end of the world

24:25

but it's something to get used to

24:27

and familiar with the you can tolerate

24:29

it because sometimes people or over givers

24:31

days to censor a little chance of

24:34

disappointment in all of a sudden they're

24:36

over giving again to they can't sell

24:38

or is it of those or something

24:40

to remember and it's okay. You're gonna

24:42

disappoint people. were. You know, grown

24:45

up adults here are new wanna. Be.

24:48

Able to accept a that you need

24:50

to set the boundaries in Iowa. Sometimes

24:52

those people you you love you can't

24:54

be on call a know all the

24:57

time for the people around you. Know.

24:59

You'll never survive in terms of empathy.

25:02

You'll be so tired all the time

25:04

and so you have to find a

25:06

balance and your life with empathy. Empathy

25:09

isn't about say yes to everything.

25:11

In an addict people misconstrue,

25:13

It is superb. Saying.

25:15

Yes, where you can and as

25:18

feels right and saying know when

25:20

you're unable to give except in

25:22

extreme situations. Sometimes you loved one

25:24

will get horribly ill and you

25:27

need to be there and it's

25:29

beyond your energy level at that

25:31

time. but you've made to sacrifice

25:33

because it's necessary in that situation.

25:36

But. Apart from emergencies like

25:38

that, We.

25:40

Have to find more balanced for yourself

25:42

so giving and empathy can be joyful

25:44

and I can feel good as not

25:46

meant to be a burden. It's

25:49

meant to be a ceiling force

25:51

that comes through you. So when

25:53

you set the boundaries I hope

25:55

you can still good about them.

25:57

As many people feel guilty to

25:59

say the boundary because they were

26:02

taught growing up the that's not

26:04

okay to set a boundary that

26:06

a selfish. Or that you

26:08

always have to do what other people

26:10

ask of your which is not true.

26:12

That is not what I teach know

26:14

it's about doing what you can to

26:16

help. Yourself. To help

26:18

others. To help the world. Oh and

26:21

away when you pick your limit. And.

26:23

Knowing how to take care of yourself

26:26

at that moment to find yourself again.

26:28

You know if you get law says

26:30

you get so tired you can't function

26:33

still to come back to yourself And

26:35

to beauty of empathy is that you

26:37

can start over and over again and

26:39

me and it's not like I feel

26:42

empathy all the time every minute and

26:44

he some days I just feel like

26:46

I failed terribly in that day because

26:49

it's just nothing pseudo have gone well

26:51

and why empathy was waiting and so.

26:53

What I do it those moments and will

26:55

all hit those moments. Know. Is

26:57

that I get a good night's sleep?

26:59

I just need to sleep sleep as

27:01

replenishing for me and then I start

27:04

over the next day And a beginner's

27:06

luck. Know. I said please

27:08

let me follow the the past you

27:10

know and find my and part again

27:12

now that I rested and begins a

27:14

show empathy again So it's okay to

27:16

have bad days where you can't show

27:18

and discomfort fish it just happens. To.

27:22

To as you mentioned this notion

27:24

of empathy being on a spectrum

27:26

and I think that's really useful

27:29

because we've been talking quite a

27:31

bit in this conversation so far

27:33

about the and past sick person,

27:35

the person who's extremely high and

27:38

empathy. Let's put. Them on one

27:40

end to new. Articulate,

27:42

Described the whole spectrum. Fantasy.

27:44

Stuff guess the other end of the

27:47

spectrum. Ah, that

27:49

is the part where people have no

27:51

empathy have empathy the fishes disorders and

27:54

there's a chapter in the book on

27:56

people with empathy to this is disorders

27:58

because you need to know about the

28:00

said the narcissist, sociopath, and psychopath. And

28:04

you have to know the

28:06

signs and symptoms of who these people

28:08

are, so you can identify them right

28:10

away and not get

28:13

involved with them no matter how much

28:15

they love bombing because they send out

28:17

incredible energy of love all the time,

28:19

which is crazily confusing to

28:21

people, you know, because they have no

28:23

idea. And people have been starved for

28:26

love, they feel this love bombing, and

28:28

then they're connected. And

28:30

these people have no capacity

28:32

for empathy. And

28:34

I want you to know that. And I

28:37

know some of you are listening, have

28:39

experienced that. You've had your

28:41

experience with the narcissist or the

28:43

sociopath. The sociopath is somebody who,

28:46

you know, basically doesn't obey the

28:48

laws and is always scheming and

28:52

trying to get you involved with schemes

28:54

and stealing people's money and not caring

28:56

and having no conscience because they have

28:58

no empathy. No, or

29:00

the narcissist who seduces

29:03

you into a relationship. And

29:06

then the minute you're hooked in, then

29:08

they become cold withholding and punishing and

29:11

start gaslighting you and make you think

29:13

you're crazy. And, you know, if you

29:15

have empathy, you just want to try and

29:17

understand them. But what

29:19

happens is that you start blaming

29:21

yourself and you start thinking, it's

29:25

my fault. I'm lacking something. And

29:27

so your self-esteem goes down. So

29:29

these are very toxic people to

29:31

get involved with who

29:34

are full fledged. There are people

29:36

with, let's say, narcissistic traits. That's

29:38

different than being a full fledged

29:41

narcissist. As you could

29:44

work more with that, there's more of an

29:46

openness with people who have those traits. They

29:48

can go to therapy and they don't blame

29:50

you with all their problems. The

29:53

other kind of narcissist blames you. If you

29:55

go into therapy, it's useless because most

29:57

of the time, because they'll blame you, they'll go

29:59

in. Oh, no, there are the

30:01

problem. Not me, I know I'm fine. And

30:03

so you can't do anything with that really

30:06

in therapy. You can't go anywhere with it.

30:09

So you wanna be aware as empathic people

30:12

not to get involved with these people. And

30:14

if you are involved with them to have

30:16

a strategy in terms

30:18

of how to deal with them, but sometimes like

30:20

if you have a narcissistic boss, you

30:23

know, it's very hard. That's one

30:25

of the hardest situations because you

30:27

can't really assert yourself because you're

30:29

not in an equal position with

30:31

them. But what you can do

30:34

is lower your expectations and

30:36

not go to them for any kind of

30:38

emotional nurturing and frame things

30:40

in terms of ways that it

30:43

will serve them. Then they

30:45

might do something you want, but who wants

30:47

to live that way? So I always suggest

30:49

if you can, find another job because

30:51

there's no working with the person. It's

30:54

not gonna change, it's just gonna get worse. So

30:58

those are people to be aware of when

31:01

you're developing your empathy, because you

31:03

wanna move towards people who are

31:05

gonna support your empathy, who are

31:07

trustworthy, who aren't gonna

31:10

say, oh, you're so sensitive. Why don't you

31:12

try to get stronger? Or

31:15

you're crazy. You know, why

31:17

don't you change the way

31:19

you're thinking? Or you're stupid,

31:21

you know, and empathic people might say,

31:23

oh, they didn't mean to say that.

31:25

They were just under a stressful day.

31:28

And, you know, they did mean to

31:30

say that. So I really would like

31:32

everyone to be aware of these types

31:34

at the bottom of the spectrum. Then

31:36

in the middle of the spectrum, that's

31:38

everyday empathy that humans have,

31:41

not necessarily empaths, but

31:43

humans. And it's a beautiful form of

31:46

empathy. Oh, I'm so sorry that, you

31:48

know, you hurt yourself on

31:50

that. You know, or people who are

31:53

just good people and they wanna, you

31:55

know, give

31:57

you a little love if something

31:59

happened. You know, or if somebody's

32:01

happy, you can feel happy

32:03

along with them. You know, my happiness

32:06

is your happiness. There is no greater

32:08

happiness in the world to get to

32:10

that place. It's a beautiful place to

32:12

get to. And you want

32:14

to be able to share that and then

32:16

higher up on the spectrum as we discussed

32:18

to the highly sensitive people and

32:20

the empaths. You've

32:33

been listening to Insights at the Edge. According

32:36

to New York Times bestselling author and

32:38

teacher Dr. Judith Orloff, empathy

32:42

is a practical daily skill we can

32:44

learn and we can develop. Cultivating empathy

32:46

is a kind of peaceful warrior training, says

32:49

Dr. Orloff. With

32:52

empathy, you can be both strong and

32:54

loving. Strong

32:57

and loving, neither a

33:00

pushover nor rigid. With

33:02

her new book, The Genius of Empathy,

33:05

Dr. Orloff draws on

33:07

insights from neuroscience, energy

33:09

medicine, and psychology to

33:12

bring readers an action-oriented

33:14

guidebook to connecting more

33:16

fully and genuinely with others.

33:19

You can learn more and order

33:22

your copy at soundstreet.com. And

33:24

now back to Insights at the Edge. Now,

33:40

I think this idea of the spectrum is really,

33:42

really useful and I want to ask a couple

33:44

more questions about it. It

33:46

seems to me that one of the places where

33:48

people can get a little like, hmm, I'm not

33:51

quite sure, is when the person has some

33:54

traits of empathy

33:57

deficient syndrome disorder.

34:00

but they're not full blown. It's not like,

34:02

it's not a lost cause, but

34:04

there's, I don't quite know, should I give

34:07

up on this person or should I give

34:09

them another chance? How would

34:11

you discern that? If

34:16

they were willing to go to therapy with you

34:18

and actually work on the issues,

34:20

you know, or go to some kind

34:22

of a coach or counselor and they were willing

34:24

to, and when they arrived, they didn't blame

34:26

you, that they were willing to look at their

34:29

part in what was going on. If

34:31

they were, then I would give them

34:33

another chance. If they say, no, I'm

34:35

not willing to go, but everything will

34:37

be fine, I would be suspicious. And

34:41

then that place in the middle, the person

34:43

who finds themselves someplace in the middle, and

34:46

quite honestly, I'm gonna put myself there just

34:48

as a way to bring myself

34:51

forward here honorably and confessionally. Wouldn't

34:54

it be good to read

34:57

books like The Genius of Empathy

34:59

and develop more empathy

35:01

and go further towards

35:04

that high level of empathy? Wouldn't that be

35:06

a good thing or is it fine? I'm

35:08

someplace kind of in the middle and

35:11

that's okay. I've got other ways I'm interacting with

35:13

the world. What do you think? Only

35:16

if you're attracted to go up

35:19

the spectrum. This is something you're

35:21

drawn to do. It's not something you

35:23

should do. You don't have to have

35:25

any empathy. It

35:27

depends if you're drawn to it. You

35:29

don't have to, it wouldn't be a very happy

35:32

way to live and your relationships wouldn't be that

35:34

good. But if

35:36

you're in the center, you're happy with

35:38

the center, stay in the center. It's

35:40

a beautiful place to be the center.

35:42

One place isn't necessarily better than the

35:44

other. It just depends what you're meant

35:46

to do and how you're meant to

35:48

develop. If you have

35:50

an attraction to becoming

35:54

an empath and you're gonna be going

35:56

up, it'll pull you. You'll feel attracted

35:58

to Learning about it. The little bit

36:00

more and you may not want to go

36:03

all the way. he might want to go

36:05

partially yet, but you don't want to go

36:07

down. The. Right? The for a

36:09

zoo wanna do is recognize those people

36:11

who were at the bottom of such.

36:15

You can't afford not to. But.

36:19

The middle Me as a

36:21

great place to be an

36:23

assist. Empathy, however it expresses

36:25

itself, is a beautiful healing

36:28

horse and whatever suits your

36:30

body and your speed. And

36:32

that's it. And. How

36:34

much do you think? Of wherever we. Fall.

36:37

On the spectrum is something

36:39

genetic vs just what we've

36:42

learned. What we've experienced how

36:44

with potentially covered over are

36:46

hard and different ways for

36:48

different reasons. Here.

36:50

In the book I to

36:52

talk about trauma because trauma

36:54

can glaze over the empathy

36:56

and glaze over the ceiling

36:58

and so you wanna be

37:00

able to look at past

37:02

trauma? whatever they may be

37:04

alone in order to try

37:06

and he'll it has to

37:08

trauma and forms techniques how

37:10

to. Open up

37:13

again it's about we'll the day after

37:15

the trauma and it's a very tender.

37:18

Process. And part of

37:20

that reopened he can mean reconnecting

37:22

to your empathy. But

37:25

as sir. Said. Sensitive,

37:27

beautiful process that are.

37:30

Be. Wanna open it up again?

37:33

Then you can. You definitely

37:35

can. Do you think

37:37

that there's any genetic root for

37:39

people who are on the and

37:41

to see a decision? C Major

37:43

League side of the spectrum. Is

37:45

there a genetic cause of Act

37:47

as an ideal? More empathy for

37:49

them to say. Yes, there are

37:52

some a some research that shows

37:54

that it may be genetically pounced

37:56

on. oh I'm in generations. and

37:59

so that's a tough responsibility, it's

38:02

not only temperament and it's not

38:04

only environment. And so

38:06

heredity is thought to be one

38:09

of the main factors involved,

38:11

heredity. And so

38:15

there could be a genetic component to

38:17

this definitely. And so that

38:19

allows you to have more empathy with them. Yes,

38:22

it does for people who are on the

38:24

far end of the deficiency or

38:27

to the spectrum. Yes, yes,

38:29

yes, interesting. Yeah, that's

38:31

true. However,

38:34

it doesn't change in a practical way in

38:36

your life for those of you who do

38:38

want to develop empathy, your

38:41

involvement with these people, you

38:43

know, it's just really dangerous. And I

38:45

just want to warn you because they're

38:47

very seductive people and they're not good

38:49

for you if you want to develop

38:51

empathy. If you want to keep

38:54

the relationship superficial and fun, they could be

38:56

a lot of fun. You can go out

38:58

with a narcissist and, you know, have a

39:00

grand old time, but they're not going to

39:03

connect to your heart. I

39:06

want to share with you Judith the two big

39:10

transformations, if you will, that happened

39:12

for me in reading the genius

39:14

of empathy and they're both profound.

39:17

And I want to bring them forward as

39:19

gifts to our listeners and those gifts who

39:22

may be those listeners who

39:24

may be find themselves someplace in that middle

39:26

part of the spectrum. One

39:29

has to do with how empathy can help

39:31

us release long

39:33

standing resentments, stored

39:35

resentments. And

39:38

you teach about this quite a bit. Can

39:40

you talk about that and how

39:42

this healing force of empathy can

39:45

really shift grievances we've

39:47

been carrying? Yes,

39:51

it's almost counterintuitive that

39:53

empathy can do that. But

39:56

If you're carrying around a lot of resentments for

39:58

a lot of years, you're... We're. To

40:00

be very have a and way down

40:02

and you're going to be carrying So

40:04

let's start. You're not going to be

40:06

able to be clear and for it

40:08

in the moment but the way a

40:10

way to begin to release a resentment.

40:13

Is to attempt to have

40:16

empathy. For. The

40:18

person who did the harm. On

40:20

it's not for their act. Whenever

40:22

they do, they betrayed you ah as

40:25

they harm do whatever it is that

40:27

you don't forgive. That unless you want

40:29

to say that's not what I'm talking

40:31

about, you forgive. The I'm. Suffering

40:34

and the Dm. Crippling,

40:38

That's within them that would cause them.

40:40

To do such a thing? And

40:42

our why would you an advantage the

40:44

for them are the reason is if

40:46

you can stretch to that point out

40:48

as your mind your mind say this

40:50

is ridiculous you know and have empathy

40:53

for them ever. Oh by air hard

40:55

as it is stretched. And to

40:57

say I have empathy for that poor. Soul? Who

40:59

the? No chance? Chance.

41:02

At all High in love and

41:04

is so harmful if you define

41:06

even a little bit. What happens is

41:08

that person's biggest a drift off

41:10

away from you so that you're not

41:12

thinking about them. You release them

41:14

energetically. As. That is so

41:16

and workers so that your and

41:19

later and sprayer and happier. And

41:22

it takes that stretched to find

41:24

empathy for something about them that

41:26

will allow them to drift back

41:28

off far away from you. and

41:31

you will experience that as a

41:33

chill and as a light name

41:35

of your load. Enough what you

41:37

want but it is a stretch

41:39

from the mind to the heart.

41:42

And. Making that choice, even saying the

41:45

words if you don't even one hundred

41:47

percent believe them. But to say I

41:49

forgive you for being so wounded and

41:51

so hurt that you did these things.

41:54

You. Know and then you're gonna feel

41:56

something in. I could talk about

41:58

it but it's an experience. kind

42:00

of liberation. So

42:02

you have to actually do it. And

42:05

there is resistance in the mind to doing

42:07

it. So, you know, which is neither here

42:09

nor there, there's so much resistance in the

42:12

mind to doing so many things that

42:15

you could just try it

42:17

and then see what your experience

42:19

is. I noticed

42:22

in using the word

42:24

empathy, like I have empathy

42:27

for the pain you

42:29

were in when this event happened, for

42:31

the suffering you were going through, for

42:34

everything in your life that brought you

42:36

to that moment where you

42:38

acted that way. When I went

42:41

about it with that focus

42:43

on empathy, it

42:46

shifted it for me differently

42:48

than other quote-unquote forgiveness exercises

42:51

I've done. In

42:53

what way did it shift it? I

42:56

just felt a lot of understanding

42:58

for the person and sort of

43:01

respect for their human struggle, like,

43:03

oh, they're the struggling human. And

43:07

that's all they could do in that

43:09

moment. And empathy was

43:11

the doorway. So that's, I think,

43:13

part of what you're pointing out. Now, I want

43:15

to read a quote from the

43:18

genius of empathy about letting

43:20

go of resentments that I didn't fully

43:22

understand and have you explain it to

43:24

us. And here's the quote, a

43:26

tricky part of healing resentments is

43:29

that you must be willing to release them. And

43:32

resentments also must

43:35

be willing to release you.

43:38

Resentments have a life of

43:40

their own. And

43:42

you went on to compare them to a

43:44

barnacle in some way.

43:46

And I thought, what does that

43:48

mean that resentments also must be

43:50

willing to release you,

43:53

to release me? What does that mean?

43:56

It's a two-way street here. There's you

43:58

and there's a resentment. The

44:00

resentment isn't some inner object. It's

44:03

a very alive being that's

44:06

connected to you in

44:08

the sense that it's an energy that

44:10

has grown over the years. And

44:13

so it has a certain resonance.

44:18

And so in an

44:20

odd way, it has to be ready

44:23

to release you because it's liking being

44:25

attached to you. The resentment likes

44:27

it. But

44:30

for you to let go of that, you

44:32

could let go in your own cell and

44:35

you could ask the resentment to please go on its

44:37

way and let go of you. And

44:40

I have never experienced a problem with that.

44:43

They're willing to go. They

44:46

only want you if you're

44:48

suffering. I'm

44:51

not too interested in people who

44:53

are awake and compassionate

44:55

and empathic. They want to go on

44:58

to something else. That's just my experience

45:00

of it. That's very

45:02

interesting. So you're almost making

45:04

analogous or resentment to like

45:06

an energetic life form of

45:09

some kind. That's very

45:11

interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

45:14

they're powerful. They're worth working with. They

45:16

really are. Everyone is listening. It's not you

45:18

don't want to be too unconcerned

45:22

about them. You

45:25

want to keep balance in your body

45:27

and building up a bunch of resentments

45:29

is going to create a lot of

45:31

problems for you in terms of your

45:34

energetic balance and your health and your

45:36

emotional well-being. Could

45:38

you maybe give me an example, Judith, whether it

45:40

was someone you worked with or something

45:42

from your own experience where you had

45:44

this sense of, oh, the resentment is

45:47

itself some kind of energetic

45:50

being that needs

45:52

to move on. Yeah.

45:55

I mean, I, you know, just from my

45:57

early life, you know, there.

46:01

My very first boyfriend, who

46:04

I was so in love with, he was

46:06

my first experience with

46:09

love. And he essentially,

46:11

after two years of professing love,

46:13

of acting love, and he dumped

46:16

me for a

46:18

cheerleader at school and without

46:20

any words and never gave me any

46:23

explanation, no closure, nothing. I

46:26

had no idea what happened. And I just was walking down

46:28

the street and I saw them making out in a car.

46:31

And this just, it just, you know,

46:33

young girls tend to be very

46:35

sensitive, you know, and I was

46:38

just stricken by this. And

46:41

I was resentful for many, many, many

46:43

years and hurt and resentful of him.

46:47

And then at a certain point, maybe when

46:49

I was 30, he contacted me

46:51

and said, can we get together and talk?

46:54

And he never talked to

46:56

me about this. And I said, sure. And

46:59

we went to the Rose Cafe in Venice.

47:01

And he says, you know, it was the worst

47:04

mistake in my life to, you know, have

47:06

broken up with you and his life. He'd become

47:08

a heroin addict and all these things happen to

47:11

him. And he kind of

47:13

wanted to fire up our relationship again, you

47:15

know, in some way. And

47:18

speaking to him, you know, which was

47:20

never going to happen because I could never trust him. I

47:23

would never trust anyone again who treated me

47:25

in that way. But I

47:28

had the resentment. But then suddenly when I

47:30

heard his backstory and I got

47:32

a bigger picture and I asked him, why did

47:34

you break up with me? What happened? And

47:37

he said, I just wanted to be popular and

47:39

you weren't popular. And teenagers,

47:41

you know what, I have more,

47:43

you know, in retrospect, understanding

47:45

of it now. I'm

47:48

not. It might sound like a little, you

47:50

know, a little example, but to me, it

47:52

really shaped my life because I made me

47:54

so afraid to get in relationships again. You

47:57

know, as I felt so hurt and I found. empathy

48:00

for him in that

48:02

conversation and any

48:04

attachment I had to the hurt, because I

48:06

was still attached to the hurt of it,

48:09

it kind of just drifted off. And

48:11

I was so happy for that, you

48:14

know, like we had reached a closure.

48:18

All right. The other point

48:20

that I wanted to emphasize

48:22

about this healing power of

48:24

empathy in our lives

48:26

that I'm learning from you

48:29

has to do with applying

48:31

what you call self empathy.

48:34

And of course, like many people, I've

48:36

learned a lot over the years about

48:38

self compassion and

48:41

even about self acceptance. But

48:43

I noticed the way you described

48:47

self empathy opened

48:50

me up to something different. And

48:52

I'm going to see if I can point to it

48:55

and then maybe you can expand

48:57

upon it. So I

48:59

think in the past, when I've practiced

49:01

self compassion, I've like done things to

49:04

like send myself loving energy, or I've

49:07

talked to myself in a

49:09

loving tone of voice, and I've put

49:11

my hand on my heart. So I've

49:13

done all these actions. And

49:16

I've said, you know, many people

49:18

in the world feel this way, you

49:20

know, and I've said things

49:22

you're you know, to reassure myself, there's

49:24

something when I just kind of was reading

49:28

the genius of empathy and

49:30

practicing self empathy. It was,

49:32

you know, Tammy, I get

49:37

what you're going through makes sense.

49:39

It's tough. I empathize with

49:41

you. There was like a directness and

49:44

just being with it and it just being like

49:46

it's okay. So I wonder if maybe you can

49:48

say more about this notion of

49:51

self empathy and how perhaps it's

49:53

a little different than ways we've

49:55

learned self compassion. Right.

49:57

It's a it's a subtle difference. But

49:59

self is to as attuning with

50:01

the sense. Compassion

50:04

is showing compassion for the

50:06

self. It's different. The attuning

50:08

is to become one with. It's like

50:11

a musical instrument. You become

50:13

one with yourself and when

50:15

you're showing empathy it resonates.

50:18

And so it's a bit of a different

50:20

posture than I'm going to show myself compassion.

50:22

My hand will come here and I will.

50:25

It comes more from the outside as

50:27

opposed to the attuning with the self.

50:29

And a lot of people are

50:31

afraid of empathy and they criticize empathy. There

50:34

have been books called Against

50:36

Empathy because they said

50:38

it's not as safe as compassion.

50:40

Compassion, you don't get burnout. You

50:42

don't get drained. And

50:44

what they don't consider is

50:47

that with empathy you have to

50:49

learn self-care tools. You have

50:51

to learn how to set boundaries. You have

50:53

to learn how not to merge with people

50:55

when it's not appropriate and to take on

50:57

their issues. It's not just like you have

50:59

empathy and it's just hanging there. You have

51:01

to learn to work with it. So it's

51:03

a bit different than

51:05

compassion. And whichever you are drawn

51:08

to again, you know, some people

51:10

are drawn to the deep attunement

51:12

of empathy and the self empathy

51:14

is so surprising. You know,

51:17

it's hard. You know, it's harder

51:19

than one might think because I

51:21

can have empathy for you but

51:23

for myself, a lot of people

51:26

find it's harder with oneself

51:28

but when one has that, when

51:31

you're alone with yourself and you're

51:33

attuning to yourself and

51:36

you're feeling that empathy, it's

51:39

very deep and complete and it

51:41

has a different quality than the

51:43

compassion but they're both part

51:45

of the picture. Can you

51:47

tell me what you mean using this word

51:49

attuning? What does that

51:52

mean? Empathically attuning to yourself? Becoming

51:55

one with. Imagine

51:58

You have a vibration. The

52:00

laboratory instrument inside of

52:02

view. A are trying

52:04

to mess with that to. Know.

52:07

The atonement the same to home.

52:09

And. So by feeling the same

52:11

tone as what's going on inside,

52:14

you become one with it. So.

52:16

When I tune into people, for

52:19

instance, here, I could feel the

52:21

tone inside of them and resonate

52:23

with it as part of my

52:25

empathy aware. Night. Of good

52:28

getting underway late so I can. Feel.

52:30

Their experience. And

52:34

how about with yourself as you're

52:36

suffering for whatever reason and you

52:38

know you need self empathy, how

52:40

do you go about that? Oh

52:43

hi to stop. And. I

52:45

just close it out again. I'm close

52:47

the door and be by myself. I

52:49

just learned that as an only child,

52:51

another that shall I replenish. Close the

52:53

door. Be by myself. I'm

52:55

cry is necessary to thats a

52:58

form of self. Empathy is allowing

53:00

that cheers to blow. It's very

53:02

shielding to cry. I feel very

53:04

positive about will. swarms of crying

53:07

were all cry. Oh mon. Oh

53:09

go in the fetal position and

53:11

bed. Oh either of go to

53:14

sleep on and I'll finally eventually.

53:16

Meet. Go on my meditation. Christians.

53:20

The land of their. And else

53:22

to say to myself, you know this

53:24

was really hard to day. Now.

53:26

This is really really hard and I'm

53:28

sorry you had to go through it

53:30

but he though you'll find a way

53:32

to work through it with this person

53:35

or whatever as you have a typical

53:37

to encounter with somebody so it'll work

53:39

out, it'll work out and so it's

53:41

a tune. A with the cells is

53:43

not the same positive worse as about.

53:46

Making. It all okay with in

53:48

that era you're okay and your work

53:50

it out. That says life, you know,

53:52

and. So. way of

53:54

us you may be hugging the so

53:57

maybe that's a little too simplistic pets

53:59

is about being there for you. One

54:02

of the things I wanted to ask you about Judas,

54:04

as you're ready for this, your vision for training contemporary

54:11

psychiatrists, given

54:13

the fact that here you are on the

54:15

faculty at UCLA, what

54:18

do you think needs to happen

54:20

in terms of the evolution

54:23

of the training of psychiatrists

54:25

informed by everything you

54:27

now know about the healing power

54:29

of empathy? Well,

54:32

that's what I do. I

54:34

supervise, you know, a couple residents

54:36

each year, and I help them

54:38

with their patients. And so

54:40

I teach them how to incorporate empathy

54:42

and intuition into their work directly with

54:45

patients. So we have the patient as

54:47

the example, and then they apply

54:49

it and then they come back to me. So it's

54:51

a wonderful experience for

54:54

both of us. And they're very graceful to

54:56

have those skills to take

54:58

into their practice when they graduate. But

55:01

I think in terms of medical education, you

55:04

know, we need to have more speakers about

55:06

empathy. I know in my medical training, I

55:08

didn't get a lot, I hardly got any

55:12

teaching and guidance about this. But

55:16

to have more dialogue about it. People

55:19

used to think and they may still think

55:21

in a way that either you're

55:23

in your mind or you're somewhere

55:25

else. You know, you can't have

55:27

both intuition and your mind, you

55:29

have to make a choice and

55:31

you really don't know I'm

55:34

proof of it through you know, almost

55:36

30 years of practice. Now I integrate

55:38

my intuition and my empathy with

55:41

my traditional

55:43

background. I love my traditional background, I

55:45

have incredible memory for it and I

55:48

apply it with people, you know, and

55:50

so it's not like it's just in

55:52

the past, but it's integrating all of

55:55

this and making beautiful

55:57

practitioners those who are interested in

55:59

it. kind of training. So just

56:01

making it more available, you know,

56:03

and making it part

56:06

of the curriculum, you know, as

56:08

people go through the four years of medical

56:10

school. I

56:12

think that that's probably the next step, I

56:14

think going there. I wonder

56:16

how many people end up in a psychiatrist's

56:20

office, experiencing

56:22

various kinds of

56:24

empathic overwhelm, and

56:27

other ways that they

56:29

don't feel mentally well.

56:32

And it's the result of not learning

56:34

the kinds of skills that

56:36

you teach in your teaching work in

56:38

your books, what you think about that.

56:41

It's true. It's true, and they

56:43

get misdiagnosed. And then they

56:45

get treated with medications they may not

56:47

need to be on, you know, if

56:49

they were diagnosed as being an empath

56:51

or an empathic overwhelm in the first

56:53

place, if that diagnosis

56:55

was even considered in

56:58

the list of diagnoses, it

57:00

could save patients a lot

57:02

of misdiagnosis and suffering. If

57:04

somebody's an empath on overload,

57:06

that's very different than generalized

57:09

anxiety disorder. You see,

57:11

people get misdiagnosed and be

57:13

given Valium and set

57:16

off, you know, and who knows how long

57:18

it will take to get off of it.

57:20

Valium doesn't treat this issue. You

57:23

have to learn some of the tools that

57:25

I'm talking about in terms of setting boundaries

57:27

and self care, and learning when to tune

57:29

into yourself when you go over that line

57:32

of you can't take any more

57:34

that day and these are really practice self

57:36

care, you have to, it takes

57:38

some skills to learn how to

57:41

do that. But it's really important.

57:43

And so to diagnose people properly.

57:45

Otherwise, you don't want to go down

57:47

the mental health route when you don't have to.

57:50

That's the system's kind of it's rough, you

57:52

know, it can be a rough system to go through.

57:55

Okay, just a couple more questions here.

57:57

One of the skills you teach people

58:00

is something you call shielding.

58:03

And I wonder if you could

58:05

share with us, for those of

58:07

us who do find ourselves being

58:10

overwhelmed by other

58:12

people's emotional material at different

58:14

times, how we can practice

58:16

shielding ourselves. Yes,

58:20

and sometimes I want to point out, you

58:22

might be uncomfortable just around somebody's energy field.

58:24

You might not even need to have any

58:26

interaction with them, but just simply by virtue

58:28

of getting near them, it might not be

58:31

something that you want to be near. So

58:33

the shielding is helpful in either case.

58:36

And the shielding is noticing when something's

58:38

off or noticing, I don't want any more

58:41

of this, I'm not comfortable

58:43

with it. And this

58:45

visualizing protection of

58:48

light all around yourself,

58:50

maybe six inches from the body,

58:52

going all the way around the

58:54

feet and the legs. So

58:57

you're inside this golden egg,

59:00

basically of protection, and

59:03

it stops the negative

59:05

energy or the uncomfortable

59:07

energy from coming in, but

59:10

it allows positivity to come in. It

59:12

says for some reason it doesn't keep

59:14

that out. But if you create this

59:16

protection shield with that intention, then

59:18

you could move more easily on different

59:20

types of energy. Or if you have

59:22

one particular person that you're thinking of,

59:24

you could put it up around when

59:27

you're around them if you need to

59:29

be around them. And

59:31

then Judith, what do you think about someone

59:34

who feels overwhelmed,

59:36

empathically overwhelmed when

59:39

they're exposed to news stories

59:41

of various kinds? Even

59:43

if they don't spend a lot of time on news

59:46

sites, they

59:49

still hear about different things that are happening

59:51

in the world. And they connect

59:54

so much with the suffering

59:56

that's occurring. My

59:59

suggestion is, Instead of

1:00:01

connecting to the suffering, you could

1:00:03

send people out some energy of

1:00:06

empathy and love. Instead

1:00:08

of taking in, you give out and

1:00:11

you can send it. This type

1:00:13

of thing, this healing and a distance

1:00:15

can come through your body and

1:00:17

it can come through your heart. If you're

1:00:20

feeling empathy for all of the war-torn regions

1:00:22

in the world, let's say you want to go

1:00:25

for all of them, just send out, I feel

1:00:27

this empathy and I send it out

1:00:29

to you. And believe

1:00:31

me, it knows where to go and what it's

1:00:33

doing. You don't have to do anything once you

1:00:35

send it out. And then

1:00:37

it will go where it's needed and

1:00:40

it will go everywhere. This is the

1:00:42

kind of thing, it's not limited by

1:00:44

time and space because it's so powerful.

1:00:46

I'm not making this up.

1:00:48

This is something that is very

1:00:50

true energetically and it's much more

1:00:53

productive to send

1:00:56

out to people than to

1:00:58

suffer along with them because you're not

1:01:01

helping them. You're just making yourself miserable.

1:01:04

And of course, war is the cause

1:01:06

of suffering. In the beginning

1:01:08

of the book, I talked about the art of

1:01:11

war by Sun Tien and he

1:01:13

was an expert in combat

1:01:16

and defense.

1:01:18

And he says war

1:01:20

is only a last resort. And

1:01:22

if we have to find war, we need

1:01:25

to be miserable about it. We

1:01:27

can never be happy about it. It's a

1:01:29

failure. And so you want

1:01:31

to try everything else, including empathy.

1:01:33

I mean, he didn't say this, but then

1:01:36

I'm adding that before

1:01:38

you even go to war, you

1:01:40

know, that war is a last

1:01:42

resort. I mean, war

1:01:45

is a terrible thing. It's not something to

1:01:47

be happy about ever. And

1:01:49

so you send this energy out to others and

1:01:51

it will do good. Maybe somebody is

1:01:53

despondent and all of a sudden they have a ray

1:01:56

of hope. That's how the energy works,

1:01:58

you know, and they don't know where it's going. comes

1:02:00

from, but suddenly they feel better, or

1:02:02

somebody was bedridden. And then, you know, all of

1:02:05

a sudden, they, you know, are wanting to go

1:02:07

to the bathroom and get out of bed. You

1:02:09

know, just something like that, you must have faith

1:02:11

in this kind of empathic

1:02:14

love that can travel. And

1:02:17

so, in terms of the news,

1:02:19

though, you have to make a quota for

1:02:21

that. And if people are speaking a lot

1:02:23

about the news, you have to set a

1:02:25

limit, you know, or I just, you know,

1:02:27

I'm not really interested in hearing about that

1:02:29

when I'm walking on the beach. And I

1:02:31

don't want to hear about the war. I

1:02:33

mean, you know, about wars. And

1:02:35

I have become comfortable in

1:02:38

really speaking up and saying things like

1:02:40

that. And people will say, okay, you

1:02:43

know, but you have to

1:02:45

find out what your comfort level is.

1:02:47

You want to be informed, but you

1:02:49

don't want to take on. In the

1:02:52

book, I talk about observing, not absorbing.

1:02:54

All right, you can observe, you know,

1:02:56

I get the general picture of what's happening.

1:02:58

But to follow it beat by beat, you're

1:03:00

going in the belly of the beast. And

1:03:02

you don't want to do that. You don't

1:03:05

want to go into dark energy like that

1:03:07

you want to keep a respectful distance from

1:03:09

it, you know, and not get

1:03:12

overly interested in all of it. So you're

1:03:14

sucked in and it depletes you. It's

1:03:16

okay to find out what's happening. But it's

1:03:18

better for the rest of the day for

1:03:20

you to live in the here and now

1:03:23

and do what you can

1:03:25

in your own life to develop yourself. And

1:03:28

that will in turn help humanity.

1:03:30

I feel very strongly about that. And

1:03:34

then finally, Judith, I

1:03:37

know that your goal for the

1:03:39

genius of empathy, practical skills to

1:03:41

heal your sensitive self, your relationships

1:03:44

and the world is

1:03:46

to help people appreciate and

1:03:48

know empathy as a healing

1:03:51

force. And you've talked about it

1:03:53

here as a healing force that

1:03:55

we can send out

1:03:57

and we can offer to others. Tell

1:04:00

me with your MD hat

1:04:03

in mind how the

1:04:05

more we're in

1:04:07

a state of empathy and feeling it, how

1:04:10

it affects our health, what it does

1:04:12

for our own healing journey.

1:04:14

Oh, yes. So

1:04:16

there's, we were talking beforehand about the

1:04:18

mother to raise the effect. And what

1:04:21

this is, is that if you watch

1:04:23

somebody do an empathic

1:04:25

act, it will touch you. And if

1:04:27

I were to draw your blood at

1:04:29

that moment or during that time, your

1:04:32

immunity would go up, your stress hormones

1:04:34

would go down, and you would have

1:04:36

all kinds of positive changes in your

1:04:39

blood indices just by virtue of watching

1:04:41

an empathic act. So if

1:04:43

you take that and you really get what that

1:04:45

is, you're not even

1:04:48

being the empathic one, you're watching it.

1:04:50

You know, just try to extrapolate in

1:04:52

terms of you did that. If you

1:04:54

did the empathic act, you know, and

1:04:57

you felt that kind

1:04:59

of rush, that's the healing energy

1:05:02

of empathy. And

1:05:04

you can understand it in

1:05:07

a way if you look at your animals,

1:05:09

you know, look at the unconditional love for

1:05:11

your animals when they crawl on your lap

1:05:13

and they're looking at you. That's

1:05:15

what you have to do to yourself. You

1:05:17

know, the way they look at you, you have to

1:05:19

look at yourself deadly. You know,

1:05:21

that's why there are incredible teachers. But

1:05:24

that's the whole point of empathy, is to

1:05:26

be like them. I've

1:05:30

been speaking with Judith Orloff,

1:05:32

author of the new book,

1:05:34

The Genius of Empathy, practical

1:05:36

skills to heal your

1:05:38

sensitive self, your relationships,

1:05:41

and the world. Judith,

1:05:43

thank you so much. You're

1:05:46

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