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Hello! Friends My name's Tammy Simon

0:03

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1:01

Are. Nonprofit that creates

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transformational tools and teachings.

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You can learn more at

1:10

Sounds True foundation.org and in

1:12

advance. Thank you for your

1:14

support. In this

1:17

episode of Insights at The Edge,

1:19

my guest is Doctor Peter Levine.

1:22

Peter. Is the developer

1:25

of Somatic Experiencing. A

1:28

naturalistic and neurobiological approach

1:30

to healing trauma which

1:32

he's developed over the

1:35

past fifty years somatic

1:37

experiencing called s He

1:39

is one of the

1:41

most well known and

1:44

respected internationally approaches to

1:46

healing trauma. Listen to

1:48

these numbers: Fifty thousand

1:51

practicing S E therapists

1:53

worldwide in forty four

1:55

countries and seventy. Trainers:

1:58

Peter Levine. Not

2:01

one but two phds

2:03

file scissors and psychology.

2:06

She's someone who brings

2:08

together science and the

2:11

say he he's the

2:13

recipient of for lifetime

2:16

achievement award. The

2:18

author of numerous books, including

2:20

in An Unspoken. Voice.

2:23

Trauma and Memory with Sounds

2:26

True Of Book and Audio

2:28

Series and an online course

2:30

on Healing Trauma as well

2:33

as an online learning. Programs

2:35

that's focused. On

2:38

the relief of chronic pain

2:40

it's called body as Scheeler.

2:43

And Peter is the author

2:45

now at age eighty two.

2:48

Are you bought? An

2:50

autobiography of trauma. A

2:53

healing journey. Peter Welcome.

2:55

Hey. Tammy Good seeing

2:57

You could say great.

3:00

And so great to celebrate

3:02

the publication. Oh yes, yeah, him and

3:04

autobiography. I never thought I'd get there, but

3:06

I got there for. Tell

3:08

our listeners a little did about

3:10

the writing of an autobiography of

3:12

trauma and what inspired you at

3:14

this point in your life to

3:17

release. This book. For. That is a

3:19

crest. This

3:21

would never it. To. Be

3:24

a book. Or you

3:26

know you mention my age so clearly.

3:28

Even if I am healthy and and vibrant. Which.

3:31

I think I am. You. Know that

3:33

the time that I have left. To

3:36

the end of my life is much less than

3:38

the time. looking back to when I started my

3:40

life. So I thought it was

3:42

time that I did. Kind of. A

3:45

personal excavation. Really looking at the

3:47

of dad's. Positive and

3:49

negative. Dead have

3:52

saved my life. And.

3:55

In doing that, Or. Is

3:57

brought up many many different ceilings and

3:59

many. They're different thoughts and images

4:01

and memories and so again this was.

4:03

The idea of this was just to

4:06

make it as something like it. you

4:08

know, like memory and dreams and reflections.

4:10

So it's a way as. And.

4:14

Coming to peace. With. My

4:16

life. And seeing where my life

4:19

has taken me now. so that was the

4:21

idea I hadn't know about. First of, I

4:23

wouldn't have. Thought. To

4:25

publish it as but because

4:27

it was set to vulnerable

4:29

to tender. Too. Personal.

4:32

But then a friend of mine.

4:35

C. C really

4:38

encouraged me to write it as a. Publicity,

4:41

Write and publish it as a book. And.

4:44

I thought, no way. No.

4:47

Way am I going to do that? She. Said

4:49

well Peter. Just. Think about it.

4:51

I mean I can see that was also

4:53

an emotional reaction. It was like mine. Are

4:55

you kidding? So.

4:58

So anyhow, very often

5:00

when. You know I

5:03

know I've lost my way or I

5:05

don't know what my next steps are.

5:07

Ah, have a dream and in the

5:09

dream in many cases is absolutely clear.

5:12

Another cases I have to kind of

5:14

sort out the mystery of it and

5:16

a dream I had when I was

5:18

struggling with whether I would publish this

5:20

as a book is as follows: I

5:23

was standing in front of a large

5:25

field. And. Holding

5:27

in my hands. Reams.

5:30

Of paper there was some kind of a

5:32

manuscript because I could see they were in

5:34

in are typewritten and I looked to the

5:36

last and look to the right. Right

5:39

and again. I'm. At best

5:41

I felt ambivalent. I didn't know. What?

5:44

My next step would be. And.

5:46

In that moment of indecision,

5:50

A breeze a when came from behind

5:52

me and took all of these pages

5:54

and blew them. Into the

5:56

wind. To go

5:58

out into that matter. To. Land

6:01

where they would land. And.

6:03

When I woke up, I realize that

6:05

I had made it it. Well, that

6:07

my unconscious had made the decision. Yes,

6:09

I was going to go ahead. It

6:12

was scary. and it was. It

6:14

was pretty scary again to reveal

6:16

so many of these buried personnel

6:18

and in some cases violent things

6:20

that happened as a child and

6:22

also some other really beautiful us

6:24

supporting experience with I've had in

6:26

my life. And so that

6:28

was about three years ago. Then.

6:31

The next. Two. Years. I'd.

6:33

Put it in a manuscript form. To

6:36

publish it. And now it

6:38

is out. Ah, And

6:40

I have them. You know,

6:42

I've been doing a few different interviews

6:45

and it's first I thought oh my

6:47

god now the do interviews but they've

6:49

been interesting people. Maybe that I knew.

6:52

Or people that I'm just getting to know

6:54

so it's been for me. Is.

6:57

Somewhat of an adventure to put

6:59

it out in the world and

7:01

to see if I was okay

7:03

with it. The first time I

7:06

gave a lecture. About

7:08

this to a large audience

7:10

you the evolution of Psychotherapy

7:12

conferences is the have between

7:14

five and eight thousand people

7:16

attending. And so I'm

7:18

in this room with thousands of people.

7:21

And I open my mouth, but

7:24

the words wouldn't come. And

7:27

saw again I felt really.

7:29

Stuck. And

7:32

then I remembered some of the

7:34

things colleagues friends are, the people

7:36

have written about me, about the

7:38

books and about me and I

7:40

so. Deeply supported by

7:42

them and it allow me to

7:45

speak that truth for the first

7:47

time. In public And

7:49

now I've done it as a

7:51

number of times. And. It's

7:54

a as become on since become

7:56

easier but it's become. Safer.

8:00

I guess as common as I felt safe

8:02

enough for me to take these next. Steps.

8:06

With the support I had from

8:08

my friends, my colleagues at my side

8:10

and whole the and keeping my

8:12

back. So I can.

8:14

It's his support which was very

8:16

important which was in many ways

8:18

pride missing as a child. But.

8:21

Now I'm. Bringing. Together Really?

8:23

as an adult? What?

8:26

A celebration in your.

8:29

Allies of your Allies to heal

8:31

that love and support. Around

8:33

you the you can drawn Snell couple

8:35

of questions Peter you know here you

8:38

are writing this. Originally for

8:40

yourself. And I know

8:42

that there are a lot of

8:44

people in The Sounds True audience

8:46

very broadly who are interested. In

8:49

personal writing and a

8:51

to work through their

8:53

own traumatic experience. And

8:55

I wonder from having done

8:58

this autobiographical writing what your

9:00

suggestions might be? For

9:02

all of us who want to

9:05

tackle a project like this, not

9:07

necessarily for publication, splotches. Assigned

9:09

our own coherent narrative,

9:11

And our allies. right? First.

9:13

Of all to be kind to sense. As.

9:16

Much as you can. And

9:19

sister. You. Know the

9:21

way I started, I didn't have any

9:23

order of chapters I'd basically just put

9:25

out. You know, I pad paper in

9:27

front of our of paired up. With

9:30

lines on its and I just started

9:32

writing. I mean I let my hand.

9:36

In. A way do the writing and that's

9:38

what I would suggest. I mean we

9:40

all have our own stories. And

9:42

they are important stories to tell.

9:45

Not. Just to others, but to

9:47

ourselves and again, that was the

9:50

way it started with me. You

9:53

know again it was at first I have

9:55

been some very frightening. Experience is

9:57

in my life but some also.

10:00

One is where I actually felt. Even.

10:02

If it was relatively single time

10:05

that I sell care for it

10:07

and I fell in a way

10:09

supported and love and that really

10:11

gave me a foundation is let

10:13

me see on. using.

10:15

The term again safe enough to

10:17

begin this excavation to begin writing

10:20

this story and then after a

10:22

while my new my friend who.

10:25

Who. Originally asked me I'd

10:27

suggest that I write this. Ah,

10:29

see said. Well let's do it.

10:31

a chapter outline. And

10:33

I know I was resisting because

10:36

in a by making that outline

10:38

I was then committing myself to

10:40

writing a book and so I

10:43

went through these different stops and

10:45

starts and and and movements and

10:47

so forth and I'm really developed.

10:51

A deep compassion. For.

10:53

Myself, one of the people

10:55

who wrote it endorsement said

10:58

he and he goes from.

11:01

Ah oh gosh. Hearn.

11:07

Of I remember it. Up

11:09

But anyhow that I went from

11:11

far and terror. To

11:14

Self Care and South Love. And.

11:17

It was a difficult journey and it wasn't

11:19

a linear. During. You

11:21

know my friend Ian. Another

11:23

katie and I said that

11:25

this shortest distance between two

11:28

points is not necessarily a

11:30

straight line, it takes arcs

11:32

of in folding and unfolding

11:34

and something opening to something

11:36

else. and so i really

11:38

solid that. For. The next. Year?

11:41

Really? And them.

11:44

Yeah. So

11:46

that's that. That's the basic story about

11:48

it. really. Is it. It really is.

11:52

He. An. An M. And.

11:55

Now that it's pop and that is

11:57

out, It was released. Today.

12:00

Ago. And. There's.

12:03

I. Know obviously let there's no

12:05

going back. I can't say I

12:08

change my mind. that obviously is

12:10

not going to happen because it's

12:12

out there. And surprisingly there was

12:15

a relief in that. I

12:17

felt a lot of gladden this because

12:19

of one of things I told my

12:21

friend is that the only way I

12:24

would consider doing this is I knew

12:26

that this could help other people. With.

12:29

Their own promise. tell their

12:31

own stories, And

12:33

and I believe that I eyes

12:36

firmly believe that that we all

12:38

have our stories and telling the

12:40

stories if it's only to ourselves

12:43

can be of value and invaluable

12:45

catalyst to growth and to coming

12:48

to heal and and homeless. In.

12:52

The Book: There's a picture of you as a

12:54

small child and you put it right. At the

12:57

front end there is a. Ah,

12:59

Kindness of this is like this

13:01

is this dreary, small. Are

13:04

precious child. Me: Peter

13:06

And I'm curious. Peter.

13:09

Burke. For those of us who

13:11

have. Trouble. Being

13:13

kind to ourselves, Often as

13:16

a result of trauma that.

13:18

We. Didn't ruin our lives usually. What

13:20

have you discovered? About how to

13:22

do that because it seems

13:25

like you really have developed

13:27

that capacity. While I

13:29

gentles into. Or

13:32

to put that in the past tense.

13:34

And but also the current tense. You

13:37

know again, I think writing it for myself

13:39

First them gave me a little bit more.

13:43

Freedom. And

13:46

then when I. Decided. To write

13:48

it as a book. It, you know

13:50

I did it And steps. And I

13:52

did it. I hadn't that at my

13:54

friend. Laura

13:56

really reflecting what see

13:59

noticed. N C news

14:01

and things about me. That.

14:04

I. Didn't realize that they were

14:06

how important they were, so I

14:08

kind of revisited those so that

14:11

the loving kindness is something really

14:13

to happen gradually. And.

14:17

It know again if we've been traumatized as nine

14:19

a given. But. If we

14:21

can be patient to ask me

14:23

taste and what's in our heart

14:26

then gradually I think without even

14:28

realizing it we will come to

14:30

braid his senses. Goodness and

14:32

compassion at least at it is the

14:35

way for me. and it's awesome way

14:37

with literally thousands of people. But I've

14:39

worked with a within. Fifty.

14:41

Years of my you know, as a

14:44

as a therapist so on. So it's

14:46

not something I believe. I just know

14:48

it. I've observed that. I've.

14:50

Observed in myself. And

14:53

again I think. Once

14:55

we start writing our stories, That

14:58

compassion can start to develop and when

15:00

it's not there, And we

15:02

feel self critical. Then. That's

15:04

okay to be okay with ceiling

15:06

self critical. And knowing

15:09

that that also and change. You.

15:12

You mentioned the picture and me. It's

15:15

where I realized.

15:19

The last chapters called Living My Dying through

15:21

the Eye of the Needle. And.

15:23

Is about need coming to

15:25

my mind. Mortality. To. The

15:27

to begin to say snap. And

15:30

wanted things that came up in writing

15:32

this chapter. It is this photograph that

15:34

my mother took. It mean. When

15:37

I was probably about looks like as

15:39

about eighteen months old. And.

15:42

I see a certain joy

15:44

and and beast for sought

15:46

some of this trauma was

15:48

how I was alive and

15:50

curious and play sports and

15:52

I just a show you

15:54

that picture. If it's

15:56

okay here. Yeah.

16:00

And. That's my coming home. And

16:03

again, that's where a lot of that stuff

16:05

compassion comes from. A child.

16:08

that innocent child sad that

16:10

he suffered to had to

16:12

suffered so much but really

16:14

connecting with him with deep

16:16

loves and tearing. You.

16:19

Share in the book Teeter, Different

16:22

traumatic experiences that you had

16:24

and as I was reflecting

16:26

I've I've put them into

16:28

three categories. That I saw. It

16:31

might be worth talking about and

16:33

maybe you could share with us

16:35

both the trauma you experienced. And

16:37

year ceiling journey through that specific

16:40

type of trauma you you talk

16:42

about something that I don't think

16:44

everyone's to know your with at

16:47

conception. Trauma. And

16:49

I wonder if you can share a

16:51

bit about that and also the healing

16:54

journey involved for. You with

16:56

conception trauma. What? Maybe

16:58

if I can come back to it. I mean kind

17:00

of. Take. A look out turn

17:02

an hour remember you remind me due

17:05

to come back to that. I

17:09

experienced be nice family or.or the

17:12

my family's life was threatened by

17:14

the Mafia by a mobster named

17:16

Johnny D. Oh Johnny D

17:18

Rondo, Joan Didion And he was

17:21

ruthless. He was one of the

17:23

most murderous of the all. Of

17:26

these. People.

17:30

He he was mentioned are feet

17:32

featured in the Good Fellows in

17:34

the Irishman. And

17:36

basically he told my father that

17:38

is My father testified against him

17:40

to long story how that happened

17:43

to happen but it was incomplete

17:45

Innocent there was no but I

17:47

I don't need to go into

17:50

that and. Go.

17:55

In order to keep

17:57

our silence. Again,

18:01

he'd said that if

18:03

he testified that he'd find the family, all

18:06

of us, face down in the East River

18:08

that we'd be basically, of course, that we'd

18:10

be murdered. And

18:13

so this is something I've kind of

18:15

pieced together. It's

18:17

about a violent assault and a rape. But

18:20

in somatic experiencing, we don't go right

18:23

into the trauma. We go around the

18:25

trauma or peripherally in the trauma or

18:29

find some earlier experiences

18:31

that were life-supporting,

18:34

life-positive. And

18:37

so I was experiencing a number

18:40

of different physical symptoms. And

18:42

some images would kind of flood into

18:44

my consciousness sometimes when I was going

18:46

to bed, laying in bed, going to

18:49

sleep, and these images would come. And

18:51

I realized it was time for me to take

18:53

a dose of my own medicine. So

18:56

I asked one of my students, wonderful

18:58

woman, to be my guide and

19:01

to work with me

19:03

to see where this would go. And

19:09

so what

19:11

happened is the first images that

19:13

came up was

19:15

when I was at four or five, I was

19:18

four, but anyhow, it was my birthday.

19:21

And in the middle of the night, my parents

19:24

must have snuck into my bedroom and

19:26

laid tracks for a model train underneath

19:29

my bed, around into the

19:31

room, and then back again underneath the bed

19:33

like in an oval. So

19:35

when I woke, I saw

19:37

and heard the train

19:40

moving around the track. And

19:43

I literally, Tammy,

19:46

jumped out of bed, went

19:48

to the transformer, because I knew

19:50

enough about electricity even at that time, and

19:53

turned the knob and made it go faster

19:55

or slower and made the horn go toot.

19:59

And in that. moment I

20:01

knew in my body. There's

20:04

a saying in Papa guna,

20:07

good, good. Papa

20:09

new gene, new gene, you need

20:11

it. Papa new Gina, that

20:15

knowledge is useless unless

20:17

it lives in the muscles unless it lives

20:19

in the body. And so

20:21

in this session, I really felt

20:23

that excitement, that

20:26

feeling of being cared for and

20:28

being in a way cherished being

20:30

loved, even though that was

20:32

not the my normal experience

20:35

of my life. But

20:37

it really gave me this foundation

20:40

to support to event

20:42

to then begin to work with the

20:45

the rape. And

20:47

the way it started, again,

20:49

working at the periphery, because I don't believe

20:52

in having people relive their promise over and

20:54

over again does any good. There's

20:56

a method called prolonged exposure therapy where you

20:59

have the person relive the trauma and relive

21:01

the trauma and relive it. Supposedly,

21:03

it drains the swamp. I think it just

21:05

drains our vital energy in many cases. But

21:09

anyhow, when

21:12

we when I would come home from school, I

21:15

would have my milk and cookies,

21:17

Pepperidge Farm cookies. And

21:20

then I would run out downstairs

21:22

and go across the road to a

21:24

park that was called reservoir over it

21:27

used to be a reservoir. So that

21:29

was then now apart. And

21:31

I would go down through the bushes. And

21:33

then there was a cinder running track below

21:35

speaking of tracks, the train track and the

21:37

running track. And I would

21:39

run around now, this was a time when we

21:42

all knew something was wrong. But my parents never

21:45

talked about it, which was very

21:47

difficult because we knew something serious was

21:49

wrong. And I would even sometimes when

21:52

the mafia lawyer would come, I would

21:54

sneak out of my room and and

21:57

lay underneath a small table,

21:59

a small telephone table and

22:01

try to listen to what was going on. So

22:04

again, it's something I knew that there was

22:06

wrong, but again, regrettably,

22:09

it was never talked about. And we never

22:12

made to feel that we had the

22:14

possibility of safety. We were just

22:16

left with this. So

22:19

anyhow, so in

22:22

the session, feeling that power in my legs

22:24

as I run, I light

22:26

around the track. And again,

22:29

that gives me another experience, counters

22:31

the experience that happened in

22:33

the rape. So one

22:35

of these days, just

22:37

like any other day after school, I climbed

22:40

the fence, and I was going

22:42

down to the edge of the bushes. And

22:45

I looked and I saw this group of,

22:48

well, mobsters,

22:50

and they were smoking cigarettes. And

22:54

they had these motorcycle hats on.

22:57

And somehow I knew that something

23:00

was seriously wrong. So

23:03

I tried to skirt down through the

23:05

bushes, but somebody overtook

23:07

me and grabbed me and threw

23:09

me to the ground. And

23:12

there I need

23:14

to go into the details. I was

23:16

violently raped. And as

23:19

I reflect, I think they wanted me to

23:21

tell that to my parents, to

23:24

tell them what happened so

23:26

that they would know how serious the mob

23:28

was. Now, I

23:30

never told them. I

23:33

was too filled with shame. I never

23:36

told it in a way to myself. I just put

23:38

it away in a far

23:40

away compartment, not

23:44

remembering it. But every day,

23:46

my body remembered it when I would

23:48

walk to school, I feel a

23:51

constriction in my breath. My heartbeat would

23:54

go high. I felt

23:56

like something was really wrong. I made sure

23:58

not to step up. on the cracks in

24:00

the sidewalk, you know that? When you

24:03

don't step on the cracks, you might break your

24:05

mother's back. Well, these are typical

24:07

rituals that we do and we're traumatized to

24:09

keep us away from actually

24:12

encountering the trauma. So

24:14

with her help, and

24:17

I also realized that, Chiron

24:21

is a Greek figure,

24:24

an archetype figure, and

24:26

it's about the wounded healer. And

24:29

I realized that I would be limited in

24:31

my own capacity as a

24:33

therapist unless I did my own healing.

24:36

So that's what brought me to ask

24:39

my student to be with me, to sit

24:41

with me. And

24:43

one of the things I write about

24:45

trauma in an unspoken voice is

24:48

trauma isn't so much, it's not just what

24:50

happened to us, but

24:53

it's rather, Tammy, what we hold

24:55

inside in the absence of that

24:57

present empathetic other.

25:01

And my student, my guide was that for

25:03

me in that moment. So

25:06

with her help, I was able

25:08

to move through these different parts

25:11

and then come back

25:13

to the aliveness in my body and

25:15

running again on the track, on

25:18

the reservoir, a whole track. And

25:21

then also again, remembering the experience

25:23

of the trains. So

25:26

little by little, I

25:29

excavated this. And the more that I reflected

25:32

on some of these things, more

25:35

other things would come into my

25:37

awareness, into my consciousness. And

25:39

so my friend, as I

25:42

said, my friend Ian said that

25:45

the CERN decision is not a straight line,

25:48

is rarely a straight line,

25:50

but it's circuitous, it comes and

25:52

goes. And that's

25:55

the way it was for me. That's the

25:57

way it was. Just to make one point,

26:00

very clear, the importance

26:02

of the train under your

26:04

bed was there was some

26:06

joy and vitality and passion

26:08

in that and somehow being

26:10

able to reference that in

26:13

the somatic experience work. If

26:16

you could explain that, Peter, for

26:18

people who aren't familiar with

26:20

this notion of alternating between

26:23

a resource like that and

26:25

whatever the traumatic memory is. Yeah,

26:28

again, like the tribes

26:31

in Prampa, New Guinea, say

26:33

that unless knowledge exists in the body,

26:35

then it doesn't exist. And

26:38

this knowledge I could have been told,

26:40

well, it was wonderful, you know, your

26:42

parents put this train and you

26:45

should be feeling good about that. It's

26:47

not anything like that at all. It's

26:49

something that's felt, that excitement,

26:51

that vitality, and that's what would

26:53

have been taken away from

26:56

the assault and from the rape. So

26:58

this gave me a counter experience

27:01

before I really went into the

27:04

memories of the rape to be

27:06

able to hold that sense of

27:09

self-care in my being

27:12

and be able to work through that. But

27:14

again, the key is not knowing

27:17

about it, but feeling

27:19

it, sensing it in

27:21

the living, knowing body, in

27:25

the body as healer. So

27:29

it was really

27:31

very much about having it as a

27:34

felt experience and that

27:36

in some fundamental ways actually

27:40

contradicted the feelings of

27:42

overwhelm and helplessness and

27:44

terror that I experienced.

27:47

And again, I had to go through that

27:49

little bit step by step, but not again

27:52

right into the core, but

27:54

working around the periphery with sensations

27:56

and different images that

27:58

were coming up. So that's,

28:01

you asked the right question. That

28:04

was really why it was so important for

28:06

me to have this experience, not to just

28:08

know that it happened, but

28:11

to feel it and feel the excitement and

28:13

the vitality, because that's what I came back

28:15

to. And again, that

28:17

picture of me as the 18-month-old, you

28:19

see that vitality, you see

28:22

that passion, you see

28:24

that curiosity in his eyes. And

28:28

that was absolutely essential for my healing. So

28:30

in a way, it's where I started, and

28:33

it's where I finally ended my story.

28:37

Peter, at what age did you have

28:40

come to consciousness that this

28:42

rape experience occurred? Well,

28:45

I mean, first of all, I was

28:47

just experiencing these troubling sensations and feelings

28:50

and momentary flashes of images. And

28:54

I knew something was wrong. I mean, I'd

28:56

already been working with many, many hundreds of

28:59

people, and

29:01

I knew something was starting to break

29:03

through. So

29:05

again, when you have symptoms, that's really

29:08

telling you that something needs to be

29:10

addressed. And that's when I

29:12

realized that it was necessary for me to enlist

29:14

help from a guide,

29:17

one of my students, to help me

29:19

process this, to help guide me in

29:22

this journey, which was difficult,

29:25

but was doable. And I think

29:27

that's, you know, sometimes

29:30

people ask me, what's the most important

29:32

things to know about trauma? And

29:35

I thought, well, there's two things. One

29:39

is that trauma is a fact of life. All

29:42

of us have experienced some, because

29:44

trauma means wound, means injury. We've

29:46

all experienced injuries to our psyche, to

29:49

our soul, to our bodies. Wounds

29:56

heal, given

29:58

The right support, wound healing. You.

30:01

Know that are broken bone

30:03

putting the cast on else Mexico

30:06

but it makes it possible.

30:09

For. It to you. So.

30:11

Injuries can be healed, but given the

30:13

right. Approach. So.

30:16

Yes, trauma is a fact of life. But

30:19

nested I'd succeed. A bad news.

30:21

But the good news is a

30:23

trauma doesn't have to be a

30:25

life sentence. That given the right

30:27

tools, trauma doesn't have to rule.

30:30

And. It's important to have these

30:32

tools and to have somebody and

30:34

away initiate you. Would. Be

30:36

use these tools. So.

30:40

Cheater. In your case, The

30:42

clarity of the actual event occurred. But

30:44

one of your points is that you

30:47

don't have to know the specifics of

30:49

what happened to you in order to

30:51

engage in the ceiling of a trauma.

30:53

Can you? Can you speak to that?

30:56

Because I think for a lot of

30:58

people they don't get clarity. Something happened,

31:00

Something happened when I. Was. Young I'm not

31:02

quite sure what was your yes. It

31:06

It's not necessary to remember

31:09

anything. With

31:11

the work that we do and some

31:13

adage experiencing is based in the here

31:15

and now, we sometimes reflect back to

31:18

the there and then, but also look

31:20

ahead to the here and now and

31:22

the future. So.

31:25

And but what and need

31:27

to do is find the

31:29

experiences where the body had

31:31

become sat down to allow

31:33

the body to come back

31:35

into into Tuesday. And

31:37

that's what it's it's about is

31:40

not about remembering something and especially

31:42

not remembering every detail. I

31:45

mean after my. After excavating

31:47

that's some details did come up

31:49

but I could just kind of

31:51

look at them and just let

31:53

them go through. Let them. Just

31:56

disappeared. So

31:59

but again, Yeah, it's not

32:01

necessary. Is not required

32:03

and sometimes that can even

32:05

be countered. Indicated to add

32:07

to just go to every

32:09

little detail of what happened.

32:13

It we only do something that's

32:15

gonna be intrinsically humans and the

32:17

person. Not something that

32:19

is and do we are unnecessarily

32:21

distressing. I mean, of course trauma

32:24

is distressing, but again, if we

32:26

know how to meet the trauma

32:28

and are supporting. Then.

32:32

I'm a can receive and

32:34

weekend them back to the

32:36

Bristol right that we all

32:38

have. Edit it and it

32:40

is. It is a birthright

32:43

to that innocent place. So

32:45

serious, excited child. And

32:47

so that was again. At

32:50

least as important. And. Made

32:52

it possible really to look at the.

32:54

They let's remember that assault.

32:58

Don't. Peter you know I mentioned and

33:00

I brought in in. this kind of

33:02

may be ah strange sequenced on sequenced.

33:04

Were wanting to understand more about conception

33:07

trauma side and it's something that I

33:09

don't. Hear people talk about very often

33:11

but your story of. This assault

33:13

actually links to that so wonderfully

33:16

can make that connection. Yes,

33:18

I was a guest exactly going

33:20

to do that. So thank you

33:22

for bringing me And bring meets

33:24

bringing me on task! Ah, some

33:26

years ago I was visiting my

33:28

parents. And. I must

33:30

have the courage. To

33:32

tell them spicy to tell my mother what'd

33:35

happen. And.

33:38

My mother's different. And

33:41

She said peter. That

33:44

didn't really happen. I don't think that

33:46

really happen. I think

33:48

what you were picking up. Is

33:51

that I was raped by. Your

33:54

Father to conceive me. And.

33:59

it has a host in there about

34:01

their distorted sexuality and so forth.

34:07

But I know both were true. Both

34:10

was true that I did experience that

34:12

assault and that rape and

34:15

that at the moment of conception, my

34:19

mother's belief that

34:21

she had been raped by my

34:23

father just impaled,

34:26

it just shocked my nervous

34:28

system. So it was there as

34:31

a memory, but not as a memory

34:34

memory, but as a procedural memory of

34:37

how my body experienced

34:40

that kind of, well, in

34:42

a way, in many ways, I

34:45

felt that I wasn't loved by

34:47

my mother.

34:54

And I think that's true, but it's never

34:56

completely true. I mean, we never have parents

34:58

that are all bad or all good. It's

35:00

always a mixture of both. But

35:05

it really also helped set me free

35:07

because I had a better understanding of

35:09

why it was that I

35:11

sometimes felt like I was the unwanted

35:13

child because I was unwanted,

35:16

because I was conceived in rape. And

35:18

that impulse, that impact

35:20

got me, I believe, and

35:23

working with, again, thousands of people different

35:26

but somewhat similar experiences that

35:29

we experience conception

35:31

trauma, intrauterine trauma,

35:35

birth trauma, and early trauma in

35:37

infancy. We experienced all of those,

35:39

and we can't get at them

35:42

because they're not consciously,

35:44

because they're not conscious memories, but

35:46

they are registered in the body

35:48

as emotional and what are sometimes

35:50

called procedural memories,

35:54

memories that our body has formed

35:57

And that we can... The

36:00

work goes through what we have

36:02

to understand that it's not a

36:04

memory in the normal sense or

36:06

I met. Remember this. I remember

36:08

that it's It's a much deeper.

36:11

I'm a body memory. I mean

36:13

I think it's to be called

36:15

a body memory but in academic

36:18

psychology sometimes called the procedure memory

36:20

or things that are body has

36:22

done in attempt to protect ourselves

36:24

but that in many cases it's

36:26

failed to do that. So we

36:28

were overwhelmed. so in a sense

36:30

as completing with the body was

36:32

trying to do then. You

36:37

know, maybe actions before to allow

36:39

allow us to come to completion

36:41

in the here and now you

36:43

know one of the the way

36:45

I start. By. One of

36:47

my books, the first book about

36:50

ah and Waking the Tiger. Human.

36:52

Trump Elite Drama. And.

36:57

I was working with this woman who

36:59

had severe panic attacks. And.

37:04

I'm. At.

37:06

When I started working with her. Lap

37:11

while she was sent to me by

37:13

a psychiatrist friend and he'd been trying

37:15

treating are for these panic attacks using

37:17

different kinds of medications but nothing was

37:19

really hoping that much So we thought

37:22

is some of these relaxation exercises that

37:24

I in developing might be helpful for

37:26

Adam as he had all kinds of

37:28

physical symptoms as well. That at least

37:30

a good get you help give her

37:33

some of our life back because she

37:35

couldn't leave the the house alone. I

37:37

mean even with her husband. Holding.

37:40

Her and she was still

37:42

just completely. Terrified

37:44

to go out in the world. And.

37:48

Anyhow, when I started to work with her

37:50

to get. To. Find a

37:53

relaxation. Actually, the opposite happened

37:55

the. at what was

37:57

we learn soon was a trauma death

37:59

star it to emerge. And

38:03

at that moment, I

38:05

had the image of a tiger crouching

38:08

and getting ready to jump out

38:10

from the far wall of the

38:12

therapy room, the consultation room. And

38:15

so without quite knowing it at the time,

38:18

I said, Nancy, there's a tiger crouching, springing,

38:21

run, run climb

38:23

those rocks and escape. And

38:26

I could see that it wasn't

38:28

helping that her legs got even more

38:31

frozen. And I said, Nancy, let me take

38:33

your hand. Let's I'll do this together with

38:35

you. We're going to run together. And

38:38

I could see her legs started to move

38:40

like sewing machine I call sewing machine legs.

38:43

And then I could see her whole

38:45

body was feeling

38:48

the power of climbing these

38:50

rocks. Very similar

38:52

in some ways to what I

38:54

just described about myself, having this

38:57

new experience, this empowered experience.

39:00

And then when she got to the top,

39:02

she knew that she felt safe. And

39:05

then she asked me if I wanted

39:07

to know what she experienced. And

39:10

I said, Yes, please. She

39:12

said, Well, at

39:14

first, I you know, I couldn't run, but then

39:16

I could, I could feel

39:18

my body climbing. And when

39:20

I got on the top, I knew

39:22

I was safe. But the tiger couldn't

39:24

get me there. And I looked down, I saw

39:26

the tiger. And the image

39:29

of the tiger changed to an image of me

39:31

when I was four years old, she was 24

39:33

when I did the session, when she

39:36

was being held down by doctors and nurses.

39:38

And ether mask was forced on

39:41

her face for a tonsillectomy. And

39:44

she was completely overwhelmed and terrified.

39:48

Our body had been wanting to run to escape

39:51

for 20 years. And she finally

39:53

could do that. So

39:55

again, it's really the

39:57

body doing what it needed to do then. but

40:00

which it couldn't do because it

40:02

was overwhelming. That's again another basic

40:05

principle of somatic experiencing.

40:08

Now, the other kind of trauma

40:10

that you write about occurring in

40:12

your own life has to do

40:14

with inherited generational

40:16

trauma. You mentioned that on

40:19

your father's side of the

40:21

family, everyone but one

40:24

cousin, one

40:26

distant cousin was murdered

40:29

by the Nazis and that this

40:31

is also part of the trauma

40:33

that you've had to work through

40:36

as a person. And this is

40:38

a question, I'm just curious what you think, Peter. Do

40:40

you think that the inherited

40:42

trauma is harder to

40:44

resolve in some way than other types?

40:47

Or that's my experience, but I don't

40:50

know if I'm generalizing and maybe

40:52

it's not important to generalize in

40:54

that way. Well, I think

40:59

it's more difficult because

41:01

we can't pinpoint it. But

41:06

inherently, I think

41:09

it's just as doable as

41:11

other different kinds of trauma. But

41:14

you have to have a different

41:16

perspective on it. You

41:18

know, one of the other things that I write

41:21

about in the book around

41:23

this issue was there

41:25

was a restaurant that I love to go to.

41:28

The Beggar's Bank is on

41:30

St. Pablo Avenue in Berkeley. And

41:32

so I was working on my doctorate dissertation

41:34

and starting to teach what

41:36

was the beginning of somatic experiencing to

41:39

a group of therapists. And I was

41:41

really struggling of how to explain

41:43

to them, to demonstrate, and then to explain

41:45

to them what I was doing, how I

41:48

was doing what I was doing. And

41:52

so at the end of a long day, I

41:55

would go to this restaurant and

41:57

the waitresses there knew me by name. were

42:00

very kind. They would sit

42:02

me down in my usual

42:05

table and start

42:07

me off with some warm

42:09

soup, some warm vegetable soup.

42:13

And along

42:15

with some warm French bread,

42:18

crispy on the inside, soft and moist,

42:21

crispy on the outside, soft and moist

42:23

on the inside. And I

42:26

was, it's like my worries kind

42:28

of just drifted away. Well,

42:31

one of these times while I'm

42:33

sitting there, I

42:36

see a shadow moving from my, yeah,

42:38

from my left side. And

42:41

I look up and it's a

42:43

man with just, an old man with

42:45

wild, wild hair and

42:49

wearing a crumpled jacket that

42:51

was about four times, three, four times

42:53

the size for him. And

42:57

he kind of motioned to me, like,

42:59

is it okay to sit down? And I nodded.

43:02

And in this image, by

43:05

the way, these images are

43:07

sometimes called images

43:13

just come from the unconscious. It's not

43:15

like a hypnotic image or a dream

43:18

image. It's something that comes

43:20

just from the unconscious, speaking

43:22

to the conscious mind. And

43:26

so in a way, I knew

43:29

my rational mind, my

43:32

scientist mind knew

43:35

that this

43:38

was just an image

43:40

from the unconscious, that

43:42

Einstein wasn't actually there speaking

43:44

to me. And

43:47

but the images seem so real. But

43:50

what was important is for a better

43:53

part of a year, once or twice a week,

43:55

I would go and eat there. And he would

43:57

often show up and I would ask him questions

44:01

and I would ask him questions about,

44:04

he would ask me questions about my questions.

44:06

So it's like the

44:08

Socratic method of inquiring. And

44:12

towards the end of the first year

44:14

of the year, I

44:16

had been working with some people and

44:23

some of these people had reported

44:25

the smell of burning flesh

44:28

and a number of them were vegetarians.

44:30

So, you know, that didn't make any

44:33

sense. But then I had

44:35

the idea probably because of my own generational

44:38

issue trauma issues. I

44:41

asked them to talk to their parents

44:43

and their grandparents if they were around

44:46

and asked them about their life. Well,

44:48

it turned out most

44:50

of those had actually experienced were

44:53

in the Holocaust, experienced the Holocaust,

44:55

and would be smelling those smells from

44:58

their prison. And,

45:02

and so anyhow, at that

45:04

time, I asked Einstein, I told him

45:06

about what I had been observing. And

45:09

I asked him, you

45:12

know, what he could tell me about that. So

45:15

it's like a dream within a dream.

45:17

So he takes me then in this

45:19

dream within the dream, to

45:22

a small pond. And he

45:24

has a yardstick, a meter stick. And

45:27

along the stick, there are a number of small

45:29

stones. And so we hold

45:31

them above the pond, and

45:33

then just twist them. And

45:35

the stones all fall together at

45:37

the same time. And they make

45:40

waves moving out in all directions,

45:42

moving forward in time, moving

45:44

sideways in time, moving backwards

45:46

in time. And

45:49

of course, this is something that

45:51

Einstein knows about, because this is

45:53

about the space time continuum.

45:57

So anyhow, I asked them about

45:59

that. and he about

46:01

what happens in generational trauma and

46:04

where the where the waves would

46:06

pass each other and continue forward

46:09

intersecting and continuing forward if

46:11

they got stuck if there was what he

46:14

called a fixation then

46:16

everything after that stuck place

46:18

became distorted and So

46:20

I and then I said well, okay

46:24

That's very helpful But

46:26

how would I work with that and

46:28

he said he said Peter? I'm

46:30

sorry I don't have the answer to

46:33

that, but I know that you do

46:36

and so for a significant amount

46:38

of time after that I started developing

46:40

a way to help people find where

46:42

they were stuck and again

46:44

It was clear that these things were not

46:46

just things that were happening from the past

46:49

going into the present But

46:51

there were things that when we would heal

46:53

some of those fixations It

46:55

seemed as though that was actually

46:57

helping our grandparents and our great

46:59

great grandparents with their own healing

47:03

And I thought you know again this seemed

47:05

like really Improbable

47:09

but then it became my

47:11

understanding that it was quite probable and

47:14

that it was quite common That

47:17

it's not just what happens to us

47:19

in this life that impacts us negatively

47:21

and positively But

47:24

it's also what comes from their ancestors and

47:27

it's not just trauma that's passed on

47:29

but wisdom That's also passed on not

47:32

important import life-saving wisdom that can be

47:34

passed on The first time

47:36

I got an example of this this was the bit. I

47:38

think it was in there

47:42

was a famous

47:45

airplane crash If

47:48

the flight was from Denver, Colorado

47:50

to Chicago It

47:52

was a DC 10 and the

47:54

rear engine Exploded and broke off

47:57

all of the hydraulic line, so it was

47:59

not possible possible to steer the

48:01

plane. And so they

48:03

tried to make a landing in

48:06

this small airport, this regional airport in

48:08

Sioux City. But the

48:10

only way they could try to control it was

48:13

by increasing the thrust on one engine and

48:15

then on the other. And so

48:17

it was very wobbly. And when the plane

48:19

landed, it broke up into many pieces. And

48:23

remember, the parts

48:25

exploded with inflames.

48:29

And the woman that I was working with called

48:32

her Katie, again,

48:34

not taking her to the trauma, but

48:37

taking to the first time when she felt

48:39

that she survived, that she was safe. And

48:42

that was the image of her in a

48:44

cornfield with the sun on

48:46

her back and seeing the stalks of

48:49

the corn. By

48:51

the way, there's a wonderful movie by Peter

48:54

Weir, Jeff Bridges, and

48:56

Rosie Perez, called

48:58

Fearless. I

49:01

really recommend that he treats trauma

49:03

very well. He really got the

49:06

director, Peter Weir, really understood trauma.

49:09

Actually, we met together and got

49:11

together after he made the movie.

49:13

So where am I?

49:16

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyhow, then

49:19

we come back to in the

49:21

plane. So the part of the

49:23

fuselage that she was in was

49:25

upside down. So

49:27

she gradually lifts her safety

49:29

belt off and holds the

49:32

belt and lets herself down

49:34

to what was the top, which was

49:36

now the bottom. And

49:38

it's dark, and there's smoke, and

49:40

it's accurate, and she's starting to cough.

49:43

And she doesn't know what to do. Then

49:47

all of a sudden, she hears the following

49:49

words. Katie, go

49:52

to the light. Go to the

49:54

light and escape. And

49:57

she found this pinpoint of light, and

49:59

she. went closer

50:02

and closer and it became larger and

50:04

larger. And then there was

50:06

an opening there, there were twisted wires and

50:08

everything. But she was able to

50:10

survive, she got out and then made

50:13

it to the cornfield. So

50:17

what's remarkable about this is

50:20

both her father and

50:22

her grandfather were in

50:24

airplane crashes. One was another

50:26

commercial flight, and the other was a military

50:30

and both of them escaped by

50:32

going to the light where

50:34

there was this crack. And

50:36

so that message from them, a

50:38

life-saving message came through to the

50:41

ancestors, to her and saved her

50:43

life. So again, it's not just

50:45

prominent gets sent

50:48

down to us, but it's so many

50:50

things. I was working, I

50:53

was doing a workshop at Esselen, I

50:55

was working with this lovely two people.

50:57

One was a crow, person from the

50:59

crow, Indian nation, and the other was

51:01

a Navajo woman. And

51:03

in doing the session,

51:05

all of a sudden, this

51:07

voice of his grandfather came,

51:10

and it was a beautiful chant, a

51:13

beautiful, beautiful chant. And

51:15

he just moved everybody in the group,

51:17

everybody in the room, we were just

51:20

so deeply touched. So that was that

51:22

great wisdom that again was coming through.

51:25

So yes, trauma does get

51:27

passed on. And it's

51:29

not just in the epigenetic transmission, that

51:31

is important, that is significant, but it's

51:33

something much deeper than that. And

51:36

again, it's not just the

51:38

trauma, but it's also sometimes

51:40

of really life affirming information

51:43

that can also be passed

51:46

on. So as I

51:48

again worked with people, that it was

51:50

clear is not just what happened to

51:52

them in this life, but

51:54

also what happened in life's past. Now,

51:58

Peter, in your own biography, the

52:01

healing of inherited trauma,

52:04

intergenerational trauma. What was the

52:06

breakthrough? Was there a

52:08

specific like, oh, that's when this really

52:11

shifted? Yeah.

52:16

Yeah. Okay, I think I

52:18

can kind of get to that. You

52:21

know, must have been in 19,

52:23

early 1950. And,

52:27

you know, the Red

52:29

Cross had this program,

52:32

where they would try to find people who

52:35

were in the Holocaust and reunite

52:37

them with families. And

52:42

there was this distant, a

52:45

cousin, distant second cousin, that

52:48

was, he had been living

52:50

in the forest for I think a year or two,

52:53

he didn't know the war was over. And he

52:55

was just living on eating bark and berries. And

52:59

then he was eventually found and brought to

53:01

the Red Cross. And then the

53:03

Red Cross reunited him with

53:05

the family. And I remember coming

53:09

together with him and the

53:11

family. So all of the relatives, 12345 of

53:14

us were there. And I remember seeing

53:16

on his arm, these numbers

53:24

that were tattooed. And

53:28

I was fascinated by that.

53:32

And I think I asked the question and I

53:34

was told, don't ask that

53:36

question, basically. And

53:39

as I pieced together,

53:42

that he did

53:45

escape, that he was, and

53:48

that was amazing that he was able to escape, I

53:50

think it was in Auschwitz, where he was, and

53:54

that he survived. And

53:56

I realized that we

53:58

all have these survival instincts in us.

54:01

So I think I learned that

54:04

in a way from his name

54:06

was Zaylig. There was a Woody Allen

54:08

movie called Zaylig actually. I think

54:10

it's the German translation of the name

54:13

Jerry. But anyhow,

54:16

by being together with him and he

54:18

I became friends with him and I'm not friends, but

54:21

he was much older, of course. And

54:23

but he, he had a convertible

54:25

car, he bought a car that was one of the

54:27

first things he did when he arrived in the new

54:29

war. And I remember

54:31

the car, the floorboards, it was a

54:33

convertible and I just love the convertible,

54:35

but the floorboards were broken in so

54:38

when you drive, we could see the

54:40

road underneath. And so

54:42

I spent time with him getting to know

54:44

him. And he dropped little

54:46

hints to me about what had

54:48

happened. But that was balanced by the feeling

54:50

of being with him in the car, driving

54:54

together. And again, looking

54:56

down at the road. And

54:59

unfortunately, I lost track of him. Well,

55:03

actually, what happened was, I

55:05

mean, he had not been with a

55:07

woman for, you know, decades. And

55:10

so I think he married two or three different

55:12

women and then had to escape

55:14

because he was going to be tried for

55:16

bigamy. So I lost him. But

55:18

having the connection with him, I

55:20

think helped me connect with that with

55:24

those three memories. In

55:27

addition, Peter, as you describe your

55:29

own working

55:32

with students of yours, in

55:34

somatic experiencing to help you work through

55:36

various traumatic experiences in your life, you

55:39

recount journeys that you

55:42

took with psychedelics in some

55:45

controlled experiments. And

55:47

you are very clear about

55:50

what the context is that supports

55:53

trauma healing. I think that's really

55:55

important. But I also think it's important.

55:58

Obviously you saw it. greater

56:00

help than just

56:03

somatic experiencing was

56:05

providing. I think that's also interesting

56:07

and I wonder if you can talk about that. I

56:09

think it was not. I

56:11

mean, things that had come up, but it come up

56:13

in a less full way. I

56:18

came of age to Berkeley in 1964.

56:23

That was all about sex, drugs, and rock and

56:25

roll. Obviously,

56:27

this is time of a lot of experimentation

56:29

in all of those different

56:31

realms. But now, as

56:34

I've come of age and have

56:36

looked at clouds like Judy

56:40

Collins says in her song from both sides

56:42

now, I think it's

56:44

really important to take a measured

56:46

understanding of the use of these

56:48

catalysts which can be extremely helpful.

56:51

They are great promises, but they're also

56:53

pitfalls. I think

56:55

it's absolutely necessary that people are

56:58

prepared first for it, that

57:01

they do this exploration

57:03

without the catalyst, without

57:05

the substance, and

57:07

that there's follow-up, especially follow-up of

57:09

embodying these experiences. Because I've seen

57:12

people who do these psychedelics

57:14

one after another, and they

57:16

become more and more dissociated. I

57:18

think it's absolutely essential to bring it

57:21

down to the bodily experience and

57:23

to work on it, and to work on some

57:25

of the issues that came up around

57:27

attachment and

57:30

things like that. So I think

57:32

they definitely do not replace therapy.

57:36

I can say that with certainty, and

57:38

that they can be used, but they

57:41

really need to be used judiciously, and

57:43

by people who are skilled, and by

57:45

people who know how to

57:47

prepare and to follow up. So for example,

57:50

MDMA has been used more or less

57:52

for simple PTSD

57:56

from war trauma, and it's

57:59

been helpful for that. And

58:02

so what I suggested is

58:05

that before they take the substance, because

58:07

you wear an eye

58:09

mask to keep

58:11

out, you know, the stimulus from

58:13

the room and earphones to hear

58:16

sounds or sort of like music

58:18

sounds. And

58:22

so I suggested doing that without

58:24

the substance and just have

58:27

two people, two therapists be with that

58:29

person for some hours

58:32

while they process what comes up for

58:34

them. And then only after

58:36

that, then if it's appropriate to

58:38

use the employee,

58:40

the psychedelic. But again,

58:42

I think it's really important that we're

58:45

careful and judicious about that. I

58:47

think there's a section of the book where I

58:49

write, you know, psychedelics, promises and

58:52

pitfalls. And I think they're

58:54

both. And I think that

58:56

people are starting to I mean, I speak a lot

58:58

about it. And I think some other people also do

59:01

about how to use them

59:03

and how not to abuse

59:05

them. So they were

59:07

important for me. And in the end

59:10

chapter in coming to

59:12

my mortality, to my dying, I

59:15

took one of the psychedelics that

59:19

really takes you to the death experience. And

59:24

it helped me really be much less

59:26

afraid of dying of death. And

59:30

so and again, there are different

59:32

psychedelics for different purposes. So again,

59:35

the person who is administering them needs

59:37

to know what are the

59:39

appropriate catalysts to use, what are

59:41

the appropriate psychedelics to use with

59:43

that particular person at that particular

59:46

time. So it takes a lot

59:48

of thoughtful preparation. I guess that would be

59:50

the end of it or the. Yeah,

59:57

you write in autobiography.

1:00:00

of a trauma, you write 15 hours

1:00:03

of suggested therapeutic

1:00:06

contact after a

1:00:08

session to integrate

1:00:10

and really look

1:00:12

at everything that's been brought up. You

1:00:15

were very specific in your recommendation. I'm

1:00:17

just going to say, I was about this and

1:00:19

I know that some of the people, I don't know if

1:00:21

it's because of me, but some of the people are now

1:00:24

starting to do that, that

1:00:26

they're doing more with preparation and

1:00:28

more with follow up. Yeah.

1:00:31

So. Now you mentioned

1:00:33

this final chapter, living

1:00:36

your dying and the

1:00:40

experimentation you're doing now with

1:00:42

5MeoDMT. Correct.

1:00:45

And you write about it as

1:00:47

the welded unity of Eros and

1:00:49

death. But

1:00:52

this is what you're exploring. And

1:00:55

I thought, this is really interesting. I

1:00:57

have got to ask Peter

1:00:59

about this. And when

1:01:01

you talk about your fear also, lessening,

1:01:03

your fear of dying, I want to

1:01:06

understand what is allowing that

1:01:08

to occur. Okay.

1:01:10

There's a number of different aspects to that. First

1:01:14

of all, in my sexual healing, I've been

1:01:17

blessed, supported by some

1:01:20

women who have come into my life

1:01:23

as lovers. And

1:01:25

in allowing myself to

1:01:27

connect deeply, emotionally, sensorially,

1:01:31

I felt as though I was entering

1:01:33

some kind of a death. I don't know if

1:01:35

we'd call it an ego death, but some kind

1:01:37

of a felt death. And

1:01:42

then in the last chapter, I mentioned that

1:01:45

I had eye surgery for both my

1:01:47

eyes. It was miraculous.

1:01:50

I was going blind with cataracts. And

1:01:54

I see basically perfectly right now.

1:01:57

I mean, if I'm in a restaurant with dark

1:01:59

light. to meet the menu, I might need reading

1:02:01

glasses, but that's all I need. And

1:02:04

if I sit on them and break them, it's no

1:02:06

problem. I just get another one for $5 at the

1:02:09

drugstore. And

1:02:12

so anyhow, I

1:02:16

had the first eye operating on that

1:02:18

was completely successful. And I remember looking

1:02:21

with both eyes into the sky

1:02:24

and realizing that blue wasn't orange,

1:02:27

that the sky was blue and not orange. So

1:02:30

anyhow, the

1:02:33

night before I was going for the second

1:02:35

eye surgery, I had the following dream

1:02:38

and dreams are very important in

1:02:40

my life. And in

1:02:42

the dream, I'm going to this

1:02:44

large room. And there's a man

1:02:46

at the entrance. And

1:02:50

clearly, he's some kind of a teacher,

1:02:52

a meditation teacher. And

1:02:55

there's a couple off to the right,

1:02:57

and they're in a bed together. And

1:03:00

I asked the teacher,

1:03:05

what were they doing? And

1:03:07

he said, they're doing the death

1:03:09

meditation. And I said, Oh,

1:03:13

that's what I want to do. That's what I

1:03:15

want to do. And so he

1:03:17

looked at me, I think, compassionately. And

1:03:20

he said no. And he pointed off

1:03:22

to the left. And he

1:03:24

said, that's where the beginners are. And

1:03:27

so it was for me, a beginning

1:03:29

and initiation into the

1:03:32

death experience. So when they the

1:03:35

anesthesia that we use was

1:03:38

propofol, which

1:03:40

is a very kind drug. And

1:03:42

so I asked the well, first

1:03:45

of all, I didn't want to use versus because you

1:03:47

can have some pretty adverse effects. And

1:03:49

so, first of all, he asked me, well,

1:03:51

why do you want to use propofol? And I said, Well, I

1:03:54

had a bad experience with the other. And

1:03:57

what I'd like you to do is before

1:04:00

you, because they put a line in your

1:04:03

vein and then they'll, you know, they'll

1:04:05

push the anesthesia in. So

1:04:08

I said please to count from three

1:04:10

backwards to zero and at zero then

1:04:12

push the propofol. So I

1:04:15

was able to prepare to make that

1:04:17

transition into death. And

1:04:21

when I awoke, I was

1:04:24

feeling fine, I was feeling good. I

1:04:27

was in the recovery room and there all these

1:04:29

people were puking and they were all

1:04:32

dissociated. And I, of course,

1:04:34

I tried to do a little first aid,

1:04:36

trauma first aid with them.

1:04:38

But again, the idea was

1:04:41

that if

1:04:43

I could soften into this experience,

1:04:46

then it could be a very positive

1:04:48

experience. And you

1:04:51

mentioned using the phi-MEO and

1:04:53

that sometimes is called the God molecule.

1:04:55

And you don't always go to love

1:04:58

and light because you can

1:05:00

go into some pretty scary

1:05:02

places. And,

1:05:07

but if it's done properly, you

1:05:10

move through it. You know,

1:05:12

there's this incredible quote from

1:05:14

this man named

1:05:17

Alfred Romer. He was a physics

1:05:19

professor in 1906. And he

1:05:22

wrote basically

1:05:25

that God is not going to the light

1:05:27

is not where God is. Those

1:05:30

can be byways, those can be avoidances.

1:05:33

But what where God really is, and he

1:05:36

wrote, is in the

1:05:39

darkness, because in the darkness itself,

1:05:41

that's where we find God. And

1:05:44

I think that was one of the great

1:05:46

teachings that I learned with that experience was

1:05:49

using that particular catalyst. And

1:05:52

I only used it

1:05:54

once or twice. And

1:05:57

I might use it again, or I might not,

1:05:59

you know. So again, I continue to do bodywork

1:06:01

and other attachment work to

1:06:04

really make sure I'm getting the best

1:06:06

that I can out of that experience

1:06:08

and not just having it as an

1:06:10

experience. Peter,

1:06:13

at this point, when you find

1:06:16

yourself feeling something

1:06:18

like anxious or caught in your

1:06:20

head or worrying or anything like

1:06:22

that and you think, I'm

1:06:25

not embodied right now, I don't

1:06:27

feel safe in my nervous system right

1:06:29

now, what do you do? Well,

1:06:34

I do a number of things. One

1:06:36

of the things that I generally do, even if I've done

1:06:39

some of the other things first, is

1:06:41

just lay down, lay in bed

1:06:44

and just follow the sensations. I guess a

1:06:46

little bit of probably like the passing of

1:06:48

meditation, but particularly where I

1:06:50

feel stuck in the body and

1:06:53

then an area where I feel really open in

1:06:55

my body. And then I may shift

1:06:57

back and forth to the open place and

1:07:00

the constricted place, the expanded

1:07:02

place and the constricted place and move back

1:07:05

and forth. Also, I

1:07:07

have a device, it's

1:07:10

like a trampoline, but it's quite different.

1:07:12

It's called a bellicon. And

1:07:14

instead of springs, they use bungee cords all the

1:07:16

way around. So it's very

1:07:19

soft. I use that when

1:07:21

I'm working with people often. Most

1:07:24

of the time when I wake up in

1:07:26

the morning, I move, I stretch, I have

1:07:28

some hot water with lemon and I jump

1:07:30

on my bellicon. And it's not

1:07:33

just jumping like for exercise, but to

1:07:35

really feel that lift in my whole

1:07:37

body and letting the

1:07:39

energy move through. So

1:07:41

I do things like that that

1:07:44

are active, that are bodily oriented,

1:07:46

again, to move that stuck energy,

1:07:49

to move it through and then to take myself

1:07:52

or to take myself or even if I feel

1:07:54

that I need some other guidance. Like,

1:07:56

you know, people sometimes people

1:07:58

ask me, well, do I ever do? therapy

1:08:00

with myself and myself. And

1:08:02

I say yeah all the time. So

1:08:06

sometimes attachment issues come up. So I do

1:08:08

some work with this wonderful attachment therapist. I

1:08:10

don't see him often, but every once in

1:08:12

a while I see him and work with

1:08:14

him. You know, and

1:08:16

sometimes material has come up, yeah,

1:08:19

often about relationships and relationships

1:08:21

that I'm in and where

1:08:24

I might be stuck and where the two of

1:08:26

us co-hurt to

1:08:28

being stuck together. So it

1:08:30

kind of really, the aftermath lets me

1:08:33

untangle. I mean one of

1:08:35

the good things about the MEO is

1:08:37

that the most intense part only lasts

1:08:40

about 15 to 20 minutes. But

1:08:42

you still need some hours to

1:08:46

process to integrate

1:08:48

and to process.

1:08:51

So having done that, you

1:08:53

know, again that's really helped me open up to

1:08:57

know that death is not

1:08:59

the end, I guess you could say. Peter,

1:09:03

here's my final question for you. In

1:09:06

reading an autobiography

1:09:10

of trauma, The Healing Journey, I

1:09:13

was impressed by how much healing

1:09:15

you've done. And there's

1:09:18

not a place that you've reached some

1:09:20

kind of healed

1:09:23

period. There's not

1:09:25

a sense that you've reached some,

1:09:27

you know, I don't know what,

1:09:30

promised land never to be touched.

1:09:33

It's almost, there's a,

1:09:35

it's the sense that there's an ongoing

1:09:37

journey still happening in your life. And

1:09:39

I noticed I felt a little disappointed

1:09:41

about that, impressed by how much healing

1:09:43

and kind of like, oh, so this

1:09:46

person who knows all

1:09:48

of the best approaches has been

1:09:51

immersed in this, even he still

1:09:53

has more healing to do. When

1:09:55

I wrote this book, the

1:09:58

promise, the commitment I made to my life, I was very, very happy

1:10:00

myself was that I

1:10:04

would follow my truth wherever it took

1:10:07

me and I did that and

1:10:10

it took persistence and it took

1:10:12

courage. Clearly I am

1:10:14

not the same person that I was 20 years ago. I'm

1:10:19

a very, very different person. I'm

1:10:21

not encumbered by trauma.

1:10:23

Yes, sometimes things come up. Sometimes

1:10:26

I feel stuck. Sometimes

1:10:28

it's in a relationship but usually

1:10:30

I find a way to communicate that. Not

1:10:34

all the time but

1:10:37

it took persistence and

1:10:39

it also takes courage. It

1:10:42

takes courage to embark on this journey

1:10:45

and it's a life's journey and

1:10:48

it's not just that we still

1:10:50

have some trauma but we are

1:10:53

impelled to move forward with growth,

1:10:55

to move towards wholeness. We have an

1:10:58

instinct to heal and to become

1:11:00

more wholeness. So

1:11:03

again, there's not an end point to

1:11:05

that or at least I hope there's not an end point

1:11:08

to that. I see that as

1:11:10

a process, an ongoing process and if

1:11:12

we do that with ourselves and

1:11:15

another person does that with themselves

1:11:17

then we can bring together and

1:11:20

really have a present here

1:11:22

and now relationship because

1:11:24

we've each done enough of our own work

1:11:26

and then we can meet each other and

1:11:28

be there with each other for each other.

1:11:31

So yeah, I mean it's not like 100%

1:11:34

of all my trauma is ever gone but I mean I

1:11:36

can talk about it. I'll occasionally get

1:11:38

a twinge but it passes readily. I've

1:11:41

done some of these interviews but

1:11:46

sometimes sensations or feelings come up

1:11:49

and I just take a moment, I just say just

1:11:51

give me a moment for a breather and

1:11:53

I feel the sensations, I feel

1:11:55

the feelings and if there's some

1:11:58

image I just may be a... tend

1:12:00

to that. And then I'm

1:12:02

fine and then I'm ready to go on.

1:12:04

So I think we get to the place

1:12:06

where we're not stuck with our traumas. That

1:12:09

we, you know, instead of like

1:12:11

there being sharp edges like pieces

1:12:13

of wood with sharp edges, there's,

1:12:15

they're, they're, they're honed, they're softened,

1:12:17

like they're curved. So we just

1:12:19

move and we touch the curvature

1:12:21

and then move forward and then

1:12:23

come to another curvature and brush

1:12:25

against it, not get stuck on

1:12:28

it. So we go from trauma to

1:12:30

awakening and flow. I've

1:12:34

been speaking with Dr. Peter Levine

1:12:36

in celebration of his

1:12:39

new book, An Autobiography of

1:12:41

Trauma, A Healing Journey. And

1:12:43

if you'd like to watch Insights at the Edge

1:12:46

on video and participate in

1:12:48

the after show Q&A session with

1:12:50

our guests, come join us

1:12:52

on Sounds True One, a

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new membership community featuring

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of our time. Use promo

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more at join.soundstrue.com

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1:13:18

world.