0:01

Hello, friends. My name's Tammy

0:03

Simon, and I'm the founder of SoundsTrue.

0:05

And I want to welcome you

0:07

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0:10

at the Edge. I also

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1:01

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1:03

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1:05

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1:08

You can learn more

1:10

at soundstruefoundation.org. And

1:12

in advance, thank you for your

1:14

support. Hello, friends,

1:17

and welcome. In this episode

1:19

of Insights at the Edge,

1:21

I'm with the hugely accomplished

1:23

and hugely capable William

1:25

Urie. Let me tell you a little bit

1:27

about William. He's the

1:29

co-founder of Harvard's Program on

1:31

Negotiation, an anthropologist

1:34

by training. He's

1:36

one of the world's

1:38

most influential experts on

1:40

negotiation and collaborative problem

1:42

solving. For more than

1:44

four and a half decades, he served right

1:46

at the center, at the heart and in

1:49

the heat of

1:51

some very high-stakes situations

1:53

across the world, functioning

1:55

as a mediator and negotiation

2:00

He's taught the skills of

2:02

collaborative problem solving to

2:04

tens of thousands of people

2:06

around the world, including military

2:08

officers, labor leaders, corporate

2:10

executives, and diplomats. William

2:14

is the co-author of the world's

2:16

all time best selling book on

2:18

negotiation. You've probably heard of

2:20

it, Getting to Yes, along

2:23

with eight other books, including a

2:25

new book, which is what we're going to be talking

2:27

about. It's called Possible,

2:31

How We Survive and Thrive in

2:33

an Age of Conflict. William,

2:36

welcome. It's a real pleasure, Tammy.

2:39

A real pleasure to speak with

2:41

you. Likewise. People

2:43

ask you, and this

2:45

is the kind of question I imagine someone like

2:47

you gets asked a lot, are

2:49

you an optimist? Are you a pessimist?

2:52

And you respond with? I

2:55

actually am a possibleist.

2:59

And you'll have to explain to us

3:01

what that means. Which means I believe,

3:04

I don't have a

3:06

crystal ball to know what's going to happen in the

3:08

future, but I know that in the present moment, there

3:11

are possibilities for us

3:13

as human beings to transform

3:15

our conflicts. And the

3:17

reason why I know that is I've seen it happen

3:19

so many times with my own eyes in conflicts

3:23

ranging from at home

3:25

in the workplace, but in the larger

3:27

world from impossible conflicts like racial apartheid

3:30

in South Africa, where it seemed like

3:32

war was going to go on forever

3:35

and where a political transformation took place. Sectarian

3:38

strife in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants,

3:40

where it again seemed it'd gone

3:42

on for generations. It would go on forever. More

3:46

recently in the country of Columbia, where 50 years

3:49

of civil war, hundreds of

3:51

thousands of dead, millions of victims, and

3:54

yet the war with the largest

3:56

guerrilla group came to an end. So

3:59

I've seen it happen. That's why I'm a

4:01

possible is possible. Is there people who look and

4:03

look at conflict and

4:06

see not just obstacles, but

4:08

they see opportunities to explore

4:10

ways to transform those countries?

4:13

William, I was reading your new book,

4:15

Possible. And at the

4:17

same time, I was having some conversations

4:20

with some different people in my

4:22

life. And I was in this

4:24

possibility mind, if you will, immersed in

4:26

your book. And in the midst of having these conversations,

4:28

I was talking to someone who

4:31

is convinced they're going to get

4:33

the same illness that ran in their

4:35

family, even though there's very little indications

4:37

that that's true right now. I was

4:40

talking to someone else who was

4:43

talking about global warming

4:45

and basically giving up at this moment

4:47

in time. And I realized I

4:49

felt out of sync with

4:51

the perspective that these people were sharing.

4:54

I was coming from this possibilities

4:56

mindset. And I thought, huh, I

4:58

don't know exactly even how to

5:00

have these conversations without

5:03

feeling at odds with

5:05

other people. And yet the whole point that

5:08

you talk about is how we can

5:10

connect with other people. So how do

5:12

we talk to people who are definitely

5:14

not in a

5:17

possibilities set of being?

5:21

Well, simply, I mean, none

5:23

of this is rocket science. This is

5:25

all about tapping into our own innate

5:27

human potentials. And the

5:29

phrase I like to use is

5:32

meet animosity with curiosity.

5:35

In other words, bring your natural inherent

5:37

curiosity to the situation. And

5:41

as you find yourself growing at odds

5:43

or irritated, you know,

5:46

pause for a moment, you

5:48

know, go to what I call the proverbial

5:50

balcony, which is a place of common perspective

5:52

inside of ourselves where we can keep our

5:54

eyes on what's truly important, keep our eyes

5:56

on the prize and then proceed.

6:00

to kind of from that place, be

6:02

curious, ask questions. Why do you feel

6:04

that way? Tell me more. Help

6:07

me understand how you see the situation

6:10

and just be curious

6:12

about why it is that they feel that

6:15

you know, for example, climate change

6:20

means doomsday and there is no

6:22

way out. But

6:25

just be curious and out of

6:27

that curiosity, out of those open-ended

6:29

conversations, out of that listening, people

6:33

naturally start to feel heard. They start

6:35

to feel respected. They start to feel

6:37

seen and then new possibilities

6:39

emerge from that conversation. So the conversation will

6:41

go in a very different direction than the

6:43

one in which you just bristle at

6:45

each other. Now this

6:47

idea of going to the balcony,

6:50

this is one of the, I

6:52

think, takeaways that many people get

6:54

from your work because it's so

6:56

visual and it's interesting because I'm

6:58

now going, not in

7:01

the normal place that I occupy right here

7:03

on the ground at eye level, I'm going

7:05

somewhere. Tell me about how we take

7:08

ourselves to the balcony and how that

7:10

changes things, what you do inside

7:13

yourself. Yeah,

7:15

that's the thing Tammy that I've learned maybe,

7:17

maybe the most important lesson I've learned over

7:19

the last 45 years of conflict is, you

7:22

know, is that the

7:25

biggest obstacle to us getting what we

7:27

want or moving the direction we want

7:29

to go in any conflict or negotiation

7:33

is not what we tend to think it is.

7:35

We tend to think it's that difficult person we're

7:37

dealing with in the office or at home or

7:39

at a whole difficult people organization. It's

7:42

actually the most, the biggest

7:44

block to me getting what I want

7:46

is right here. It's me. It's

7:48

not the person on the other side of the table. It's the

7:50

person on this side of the table. It's the person I look

7:53

at in the mirror every morning. We get in

7:55

our own way through our

7:57

very understandable, very natural,

8:00

very human tendency to

8:02

react. In other words, to act

8:04

without thinking, to act out of

8:07

fear, out of anger. And

8:09

as the old saying goes, when

8:11

you are angry, you will make

8:13

the best speech you will ever

8:15

regret. You will send

8:17

the best text you will ever regret.

8:20

And so the ability to pause

8:23

for a moment, do all the things

8:25

that, you know, that so many of

8:27

the podcasts and Sounds True really invite

8:30

you to do, which is to go inward first. That

8:34

turns out to be key. It turns out the

8:36

negotiation, even though we think of it as influencing

8:38

the other, the first step is

8:40

influencing ourselves. It turns out to be an

8:43

inside game in which the process

8:45

starts from the inside out. What's

8:48

interesting to me about this balcony idea

8:50

specifically, because I'm not just going into

8:52

the cave of the heart, I'm

8:55

somehow getting a bird's

8:58

eye view. So I want

9:00

to talk specifically about that shift

9:03

in perspective and what

9:05

that feels like inside of you

9:07

when you do it, especially in a conflict,

9:10

torn discussion or situation.

9:14

Well, can I give you an example? Yeah.

9:17

Sure. So, you

9:20

know, where this really struck

9:22

me, like, you know, like a

9:24

thunderbolt was occasioned about 20, 25

9:27

years ago, I was

9:30

asked by former president Jimmy Carter to

9:32

go down to the country of Venezuela, which was

9:34

in the middle of a political dispute, very,

9:37

very bitter, where there are a million people

9:39

on the streets demanding the immediate resignation of

9:42

the president, Hugo Chavez, and

9:44

a million people on the streets supporting him. And there

9:46

was some violence and there was some

9:48

fear of widespread civil violence, even civil war. Anyway,

9:51

I had a number of

9:54

meetings with President Chavez, but one of them, he

9:56

liked to meet at night, was nine o'clock,

9:58

I showed up with my... colleague, Francis

10:01

Godias from the Carter Center. And we

10:03

waited patiently 10, 11, finally at midnight,

10:06

we rushed in to see the president. And

10:08

we find him not alone

10:10

as we expected, but with his entire

10:12

cabinet arrayed behind him. And

10:15

he said to me, so you're here, tell me, what

10:17

do you think of the situation here in Venezuela?

10:20

And I said, you know, Mr. President, I've been talking to

10:22

some of your ministers here. I've been talking to some

10:25

of the opposition leaders. And it seems to

10:27

me they're making some progress. Well,

10:30

progress wasn't the word he wanted to

10:32

hear. He said, I feel mean progress.

10:35

And he leaned in very close to my

10:37

face and proceeded to shout at me so

10:39

I could really feel his hot breath. And

10:42

what you were, you don't see the dirty

10:44

tricks, those traitors on the other side are

10:46

up to your naive, you third parties are

10:49

fools. And it just went on and on.

10:52

And of course, like when someone is shouting

10:54

at you like that, and you know, I was thinking, a

10:57

year's worth of work down the drain, I

10:59

was feeling embarrassed in front of the entire

11:01

cabinet, a lot of internal feelings. And at

11:04

that moment, for

11:07

whatever reason, I remembered a friend of mine once

11:09

said, you know, if you're ever

11:11

in a tough situation, pinch the palm of your hand.

11:13

And I said, why would I pinch the palm of

11:15

my hand? Because that will give you a momentary pain,

11:18

it'll keep you alert. And I remembered

11:21

to do that. And what it did was I

11:23

then was able to kind of, just for a

11:25

moment, in a flash of a moment, notice my

11:27

own feelings, observe like from a balcony, observe

11:30

self observation, observe my own

11:32

feelings of embarrassment, of

11:34

fear of, you know, what

11:36

am you thinking my mind's raising, how

11:38

am I gonna defend myself? And

11:41

instead ask the question, what

11:43

is it that you really wanna happen here? And

11:46

is it really gonna do any good if

11:48

you get into a shouting match with the

11:50

president of Venezuela? And I

11:52

realized I was there to kind of calm the situation down. So

11:55

I, you know, just bit

11:57

my tongue and I just listened to him. having

12:00

listened first to myself, and

12:03

that's the key, noticed my own feelings

12:05

and my own nervous system could start to settle

12:07

down a little bit. And I had some space

12:09

to really listen to him and observe it as

12:11

if it was a play. Like you're

12:13

on the balcony and

12:15

that everything is going on on the stage

12:18

and just watch him. And 10 minutes went by, 20

12:20

minutes went by, 30

12:23

minutes went by, this is a man who could give speeches

12:25

for seven hours. But with no

12:27

reaction from me, he began to run

12:29

a little bit out of steam and

12:31

suddenly watching his body language, I saw

12:33

his shoulders slowly sink. And

12:35

in a weary tone of voice, he asked me, he

12:37

said, so Yuri, what

12:40

should I do? Well,

12:42

that is the sound, the

12:44

faint sound of a human mind opening.

12:47

And so that was my

12:50

opportunity. So I said, Mr. President, it's

12:52

almost Christmas time. Last Christmas, all the

12:54

festivities around the country were canceled. Why

12:57

not give everyone a break, call a

12:59

truce, a Tregua in Spanish, three weeks,

13:01

give them a chance to enjoy the

13:04

holidays with their families. And maybe in January, they'll

13:06

come back into better mood to listen. Well,

13:09

he stopped for a moment. He looked at me for a

13:11

moment, he thought about it. And

13:14

then he said, you know what, that's an excellent

13:16

idea. I'm gonna propose that my next speech. And

13:18

he clapped me on the back with his hand

13:21

and his mood had completely shifted. And

13:24

what I learned then and there was

13:26

that the single greatest power we have in a

13:28

difficult conflict situation, whether it's at home at work

13:31

or in the world is the

13:33

power not to react, but

13:36

to pause for a moment and go to

13:38

that proverbial balcony. That

13:41

story really says so much. Now, one

13:44

of the questions I have for you

13:46

is someone who has been personally on

13:48

a lot of different meditation retreats and

13:50

received a lot of meditation training, done

13:53

a lot of practice. That's

13:55

the way I learned to

13:57

take a witness or an observer's.

14:00

perspective. You teach this

14:02

go to the balcony to all kinds of

14:04

people all over the world. Outside

14:07

of meditation, how do

14:09

people develop this capacity,

14:12

this quality? Practice.

14:17

Do we get and we have a chance

14:19

to practice every single day, all these things.

14:21

These are lifelong lessons, you know, whether it's

14:24

learning to pause or learning to listen to

14:26

the other side, but they're natural human potentials

14:28

that we all have. And I ask audiences,

14:30

I say to them, you know,

14:32

the people I work with, all kinds of

14:35

audiences from business people to

14:38

unions to teachers to

14:41

students, what's your favorite

14:43

way to go to the balcony? And

14:45

everyone has one. I mean, it could be, you know,

14:48

just to breathe, like they teach

14:50

you in meditation class, you know, take a few deep

14:52

breaths. And, you know, there's a

14:54

kind of clarity that emerges. It

14:56

might be to take a break. It

14:58

might be to go for a walk

15:01

in nature, which is my favorite way to go to

15:03

the balcony if I have time, you know,

15:05

just because the the the the effect

15:07

of nature just kind of like, hounds

15:09

me gives me a sense of perspective, I like to go

15:12

to walk in the mountains, that's a real balcony where you

15:14

can kind of see a view or if you're by the

15:16

ocean as you are, you can kind of see the view.

15:19

And are some people like just to have,

15:21

you know, talk with a friend, or

15:23

go for a workout. Everyone has their

15:26

favorite ways of doing this. And

15:28

it's and today in today's world

15:30

versus increasingly stressed and social media

15:32

and everything going off, we

15:34

need the counterpoint

15:37

of finding our balconies, both the short term

15:39

balconies, it could be just saying

15:41

nothing, you know, one of the most powerful things you can

15:43

do in any conflict of negotiation is just

15:46

use the power of silence, just just

15:48

a few seconds of silence, 10 seconds,

15:50

15 seconds of silence. In fact, I

15:52

have a colleague at MIT

15:55

who's done a study of

15:57

negotiation and correlated the amount

15:59

of silence you could record in

16:02

the conversation with a degree

16:04

of the cooperativeness of the outcomes. In

16:06

other words, more

16:08

silence, more cooperation. There's

16:11

just one more thing about this balcony metaphor

16:13

because I find it so powerful. So this

16:15

is why I'm spending so much

16:17

time here, which is it's

16:19

this notion of instead of being

16:21

behind my eyes, I'm

16:24

somehow in a different set of

16:26

eyes. My eyes are someplace else.

16:29

I'm now a player with

16:31

other players in conflict versus

16:33

I'm looking down upon it. So I wonder if you

16:36

can just say something about that, this shift in perspective.

16:39

I love that. Yeah, it's a metaphor

16:41

and I find metaphors really powerful because

16:43

they do like you just suggest,

16:45

you know, the metaphor just

16:48

allows you to kind of imagine yourself

16:50

visually on a balcony,

16:53

which is a mental, emotional, even

16:55

spiritual place of perspective. And

16:57

just that metaphorical use

17:00

of the imagination there, I

17:04

just find it so useful just, oh, okay,

17:06

imagine a visual balcony. And it's like, yeah,

17:08

okay. Then suddenly I've got that in a

17:10

perspective, you know, neuroscientists would say you're kind

17:13

of engaging your prefrontal cortex, you know, to control

17:15

your limbic system. And, you know, there would be

17:17

other kinds of language, but it's a,

17:21

it's that kind of the

17:23

ability to detach

17:28

that little bit of detachment. And it doesn't mean that

17:30

you're running away from the conflict. On the contrary,

17:32

you go

17:35

from balcony to stage, balcony to stage,

17:37

balcony to stage, balcony to stage. And

17:39

you just practice that. And you have

17:41

a chance to practice it in every

17:44

conversation. It's just the more we do

17:46

that, the more we can know what

17:49

our favorite ways of going to the balcony are, cultivate them, even

17:51

think about building, like I'm going to have

17:53

a stressful meeting. Make sure there's time outs to make

17:55

sure, you know,

17:57

you could, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's,

18:00

You don't have to go on forever. Okay, you're going to

18:02

talk for two minutes or five minutes or 10 minutes, and

18:04

you'll take a break. Just

18:07

titrating the amount, because it's so often

18:09

we've got to find ways to break

18:12

that natural reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, you

18:14

know, an eye for an eye, and

18:16

we all go blind. I

18:18

mean, that leads us nowhere. So balcony,

18:21

I mean, paradoxically, the best way

18:23

to start a

18:26

difficult conflict conversation, a difficult negotiation

18:29

is to stop. The best way

18:31

to start is to stop. The best

18:33

way to engage is first to

18:35

disengage. As

18:39

a possibilities, one of the

18:41

interesting things that you say right

18:44

in the beginning of possible is

18:47

you sort of turn this view of

18:49

conflict on its head. And

18:51

you write conflict can produce better

18:54

ideas, and ultimately

18:57

better relationships. And

18:59

you go on, and I'm just going to read this for a moment.

19:04

When I wrote getting to yes more than 40

19:06

years ago, yes meant

19:08

a mutually satisfying agreement.

19:11

Today, I believe the meaning of

19:14

yes must be expanded. The

19:16

new yes means to

19:18

lean in and embrace

19:21

conflicts for all they have

19:23

to offer us. The

19:25

new yes is a transformative

19:27

yes. So I

19:29

wanted to understand more this view

19:32

of conflicts that they're

19:34

going to help us have better relationships,

19:36

really? Really? I know.

19:39

I mean,

19:42

that wasn't the way I used to think, too.

19:44

I used to think that most people do the

19:46

conflict something negative. But in the sense that we're

19:49

in a world of conflict. What

19:51

I've learned as an anthropologist and a negotiator

19:53

is that conflict actually is something natural. It's

19:55

part of human life. It's

19:58

part of everyday life. It's everywhere.

20:00

And in fact, wherever

20:03

I ask people, I say, is conflict going same,

20:05

pretty much the same as it always has been?

20:07

Is it going down over time? Is it going up?

20:09

And everyone's hand is going

20:12

up and there's no end in sight.

20:14

So our choice isn't about ending conflict.

20:16

And then I realized, aha, the problem

20:18

isn't conflict. The problem is the way

20:20

we deal with conflict. And we have

20:23

a choice whether or not

20:25

to deal with a conflict destructively through

20:27

vicious arguments, fights,

20:30

lawsuits, wars, in

20:33

which everybody ends up losing, or

20:36

to handle it constructively through

20:39

listening, through dialogue, through

20:41

constructive problem solving, through

20:43

negotiation. That's our

20:45

choice, is to transform

20:47

conflict. It's to change the form from

20:51

destructive to constructive. And in

20:53

that sense, actually,

20:55

paradoxically, in this world, hard

20:58

to believe, but we actually may

21:00

need more conflict, not less, more

21:03

healthy conflict, because wherever they're

21:05

injustices, we're going to need conflict to engage it. You

21:07

know, even in a marriage,

21:09

for example, psychologists will tell you that the

21:12

best couples are not the ones who have

21:14

no conflict. The best ones are the ones

21:17

who know the most healthy relationships, the ones

21:19

where people know how to engage their differences,

21:21

surface their differences, express them, but express them

21:23

in a respectful, constructive way. That's the key.

21:27

So in principle, I can start

21:29

to get excited about this. And I'm going

21:31

to just use an example that is from

21:33

my own life that I think maybe people

21:35

can relate to. It's relatively benign, but a

21:37

neighbor who contacts me and

21:40

has a conflict about a property dispute

21:42

and who's responsible for this or that.

21:44

And I think, oh, this is a chance for

21:47

me to get to know my neighbor better. This

21:49

is going to be a transformational conflict.

21:51

We're going to be in better

21:53

relationship. We're going to have dinner.

21:56

But it actually goes kind of

21:58

south, William, because the. this ends

22:00

up being a quote unquote difficult

22:02

person. So now I'm in the balcony,

22:04

I'm looking at this situation. I want

22:07

it to be transformational, but the truth

22:09

is conflict is a pain in the

22:11

you know what. So how

22:13

do we take on this view

22:16

of like, oh, I'm still feeling

22:18

all of this positive energy about

22:20

transforming our relationship? I

22:23

love your questions, Tammy. So yeah, the

22:27

thing is, a lot of us, I would say

22:30

when we're faced with conflict, we tend to fall

22:32

into what I call the three A trap.

22:35

And the first A is a lot of

22:38

us don't like conflict, so we avoid it.

22:40

And you know, that's our natural tendencies, we

22:42

avoid it. But when you avoid it, most

22:46

of the times the issue doesn't go away.

22:48

It often gets worse, it simmers, it stews

22:50

and whatever. And so

22:52

there's another one, which is the second A is

22:54

to accommodate. You know,

22:57

we appease, we just give in, and

23:00

that's not satisfactory at all. And the

23:02

third, of course, which is very common

23:05

is to attack, A for attack. And

23:07

we attack the other side, and

23:09

then we know where it goes. So the

23:12

question that we face is, how do we get out

23:14

of the three A trap? And

23:17

this is where I've learned that the best way

23:19

out of the three A trap is through the

23:21

exact opposite of avoiding, which

23:23

is paradoxically to lean into

23:26

the conflict. Instead of

23:28

like freezing, where you don't really,

23:31

it paralyzes your ability to bring your

23:33

full potential to the situation, you lean

23:35

in, you lean in with curiosity, you

23:37

lean in with natural creativity, you know,

23:39

because there may be some creative ways

23:42

to actually engage that, because the best

23:44

creative ideas come from actually when there

23:46

are divergent opinions and

23:48

collaboration. Is this easy? No,

23:51

it's not easy. This is some of the hardest

23:53

work human beings can do, but it's

23:55

also some of the most satisfying, because in the

23:57

end, even when-

24:00

with your difficult neighbor like that, you'll

24:02

get to know your neighbor a little better. You

24:04

might hear things from them that you hadn't expected

24:06

to hear. You think they're difficult. You haven't heard

24:08

their story. What is it about

24:10

them? You

24:13

haven't heard of it somehow when we

24:15

engage, it gives us a chance to have

24:17

a conversation. So the thing

24:20

is not to say, okay, I'm just gonna block out

24:22

my neighbor. It's like, okay, how

24:24

can I, having gone to the balcony,

24:26

which is the first foundation, because oftentimes

24:28

we jump in without the balcony. And

24:30

then of course, we're gonna get into

24:33

an unproductive conversation. But if we

24:35

have that balcony perspective, which we

24:37

can all cultivate, and from

24:39

that bring that curiosity.

24:41

And there's a key thing,

24:44

which is critical, which is we often miss,

24:46

we think of negotiation as talking.

24:48

You know, that's always, I'm gonna have a talk with

24:50

my neighbor. You know, we're gonna

24:53

have peace talks or whatever. We always talk

24:55

about us talking. Actually negotiation is much more

24:57

about listening. Then, you

24:59

know, there's a reason why we're given two years

25:01

in one mouth, which is to listen twice as

25:04

much as we talk. And it's listening that

25:07

turns out to be key. Listening is the,

25:09

not just listening the way we often listen, which

25:11

is you listen to the other side, just to

25:13

kind of, okay, I'm taking in their words, in

25:15

order to refute, what am I gonna say and

25:17

reply? No, it's listening where you put

25:20

yourself or try to put yourself in

25:22

the other side's shoes. It's empathetic listening, trying

25:24

to understand how they see things. Doesn't mean

25:26

giving up how you see things, but

25:29

it means listening to how they see

25:31

things. How does your neighbor view the situation?

25:35

You hear your neighbor's feelings, you hear their needs. And

25:37

then guess what? New possibilities might

25:39

emerge that you haven't thought about for a

25:41

way to satisfy what you

25:43

need around that property dispute and

25:45

a way to satisfy their needs. What,

25:50

when you hear that someone says, yeah,

25:52

yeah, yeah, I hear everything you're saying,

25:54

But this person, you don't know this

25:56

person, this person, and I'm sure you've

25:58

heard versions of it. That again Russia

26:01

and again. What? Where does your mind?

26:03

Go William, I've heard I've only

26:05

done this is the reason why

26:07

I wrote the book is everyone

26:09

thinks it's impossible. You know the

26:11

person is impossible. These situations are

26:13

impossible. And granted, It's

26:15

start. Up a

26:17

possible as looks at the native possibilities

26:20

as well as a positive possibilities a

26:22

look at the full range. Ah and.

26:25

Granted, Aside. And. This.

26:27

Is what I could say as such as like. using.

26:30

Your neighbors difficult to imagine the picture

26:32

galleries in front of the body. and

26:35

Northern Ireland has been blood. yeah and

26:37

everything. And if they. Could

26:40

find ways been end the conflict

26:42

as the whole thing that has

26:44

transformed they decided to end the

26:46

war. To. To make it

26:48

less destructive to. End the

26:50

troubles, and you know, if blacks and whites

26:52

in South Africa with all of that was

26:54

going on, there could find a way through.

26:57

And. If Colombians, you know, Fifty.

27:00

Years of Civil war could do it. Them.

27:02

May be so should we. And the

27:04

and so yeah is is it easy?

27:06

Know are some people are extremely difficult.

27:09

Yes, I'm not even say you can

27:11

reach agreement with everyone. I'm not even

27:13

talking about necessarily reaching agreement. You may

27:15

not reach agreement with them, but you

27:17

can transform the way you deal with

27:20

them. And. The

27:22

key thing is it starts with you.

27:24

And. The key. In

27:29

I subtype, I'm listening. What listening does is

27:31

it. It's. Maybe the

27:33

most basic gesture for communicating

27:35

respect. With

27:37

someone than feel seen and heard. And

27:40

another talking about respect in the sense

27:42

of you liked the personally approved the

27:44

behavior. I'm taking a basic human dignity.

27:47

It may be the cheapest concession you can

27:49

make and any negotiation. Is listen

27:51

to them and give him a little respect

27:53

because their dignity might not mean anything to

27:55

you, but it means everything to them. Now,

27:59

it's interesting that. We're separating out

28:01

this notion of reaching

28:03

agreement and transforming the

28:05

relationship. And I think many of

28:07

us think those two things that, you

28:09

know, we're focused on the agreement. Tell

28:12

me what it means to

28:14

transform the relationship. How do you know that's

28:16

working? Well,

28:19

yes, it's working when,

28:24

as I mentioned, there's like,

28:26

there's a quality of listening

28:29

to each other, even if you don't agree with each other. You

28:31

might, in fact, reach what I would

28:33

call second order agreement, which is, let's,

28:36

we're never going to reach agreement on this issue,

28:38

whether it's, I don't know, abortion, whatever the issue

28:40

is. We're not going to reach agreement on it.

28:44

But let's at least reach second order agreement.

28:46

Let's agree on where we agree and

28:48

where we disagree and maybe

28:50

explore why we disagree. What

28:55

are the

28:57

underlying reasons and different

29:00

world experiences that would lead

29:02

us to disagreement? And that

29:04

actually we can do in

29:06

an open, curious, respectful way

29:09

that will improve the relationship because

29:12

we're going to have a lot of conflict. The conflict

29:14

is like, so

29:16

the relationship is

29:18

like a container

29:21

within which, you know, you can,

29:24

it's like, it's like a pot. You can

29:26

cook the food in it. It's a strong

29:28

container. And so, yes, a lot

29:31

of conflict is going to go through our lives

29:33

right now. But if we can build those

29:36

transformative containers in relationships

29:39

with community, then

29:41

we can, we can handle the conflict.

29:43

We can deal with the conflict and

29:45

we can take the positive, healthy

29:47

aspects of conflict that allow us to

29:49

come up with new ideas, creative ideas.

29:51

I mean, think about whether

29:55

it's at the core of

29:57

a healthy marriage or of a healthy family or

29:59

a healthy. healthy workplace, where the

30:01

best ideas come from

30:04

differences emerging and being

30:06

expressed. And then you think of new things

30:08

that you haven't thought about. And

30:10

you know, a healthy democracy is not one

30:12

in which everyone agrees, a healthy workplace is

30:14

not one in which everyone agrees, it's one

30:16

where it's safe for differences and you

30:19

can engage those differences.

30:21

So that's really why it's about relationship

30:23

and not necessarily about reaching agreement, because

30:25

you may not reach agreement, at least

30:27

not now. So

30:30

in possible, you reflect

30:32

on your four plus decades

30:35

of creative problem

30:37

solving, mediation in these difficult situations.

30:39

And there are three high level

30:42

teachings that you bring forward. One you've

30:44

already shared with us. Going

30:47

to the balcony, the second one you

30:49

call creating a golden bridge. And

30:52

I wonder if you can explain that and also

30:54

give an example from your work in the

30:56

field. For sure. So

31:00

balcony is about unlocking

31:02

our inner potential, the

31:04

potential within us. It's that place of

31:06

common perspective. It allows us

31:08

to bring our best to it. Bridge

31:11

is then about unlocking the potential

31:13

that exists between people, between the

31:16

parties in a conflict. And

31:20

so often in negotiation

31:23

and conflict, what we tend

31:25

to do is we were just talking to you about is you

31:28

start a conflict starts to rise, tensions

31:30

start to rise. People take positions and

31:32

we each dig into our positions and

31:34

we refuse to budge. And then

31:36

we start pushing the other to get them to

31:39

change their position. And of course, the more we

31:41

push, what do they do? Naturally,

31:43

they push back and we're the stalemate or

31:45

we get into we get into a

31:48

fight and it doesn't seem to

31:50

go anywhere. Building

31:53

a bridge, building a golden bridge

31:55

is the exact opposite of pushing.

31:58

It's almost like Your mind is here.

32:02

Their mind is way over there. Right. And you're

32:04

saying to them, Hey, come on over to my

32:06

position. Come over my position. And

32:08

if you put yourself in their shoes for

32:11

a moment, it's not so easy for them

32:13

to do that because for them, it's like,

32:15

there's a giant chasm, like a grand Canyon.

32:17

That's filled with doubt, anxiety, unmet

32:20

needs, dissatisfaction, trauma, past

32:22

history, whatever it is,

32:24

they can't cross that

32:26

chasm to get to you. So our

32:29

job, interestingly, is to leave

32:31

where our mind is for a moment. It's

32:33

not mean surrendering your principles or anything like

32:35

that, but just leave with your mind is

32:37

for a moment and begin the conversation. Start

32:39

at where their thinking is. And

32:42

then proceed to build them a golden

32:44

bridge over that chasm

32:46

of dissatisfaction. In other words, instead

32:49

of making it hard

32:51

for them, try to

32:53

make it as easy as possible for them

32:56

to make the decision you want them to make instead

32:59

of pushing a track.

33:02

And it all starts with the process

33:04

of listening. And I could

33:06

give you an example too, but that's

33:08

the, it's the, it's like doing the

33:10

exact opposite of what we might naturally

33:12

do, which is we react. We take

33:14

a position we push in this case.

33:17

It's a different, a different script,

33:19

which is you go to the balcony. You

33:23

get to yes with yourself in some sense,

33:25

and then you can proceed to get to

33:27

yes for the other by starting by listening

33:30

and opening up possibilities for

33:32

creativity. Share with

33:35

me this notion of a tract

33:37

and a story that shows how

33:39

you were able to achieve that.

33:44

Well, I, let's see,

33:46

I could give you an example. I

33:53

can give you an example from the larger way. What do you want? Do you want

33:55

an example from the world of politics? Do you want

33:57

an example? Okay. Either one. Okay. So

34:01

here's an, here's, here's,

34:03

uh, I'm in Brazil right now. You're just

34:05

finding me here in Brazil. And, uh, I

34:07

was, uh, today I went to the 30

34:10

day mass of a friend

34:12

of mine who was once a client of mine

34:14

who died a month

34:16

ago and his name was Abilio Denise. And he

34:19

was a business guy, very, very

34:21

well-known here in Brazil. Um,

34:24

very well-known and he was

34:26

the founder with his father, Brazil's largest

34:28

supermarket chain, the retailer is called, called

34:31

the Asukar. And 11

34:33

years ago, uh, I

34:35

got a call from his wife and

34:37

daughter. We're very concerned because Abilio

34:40

is his name. He was involved

34:42

in a Titanic dispute with his

34:45

business partner over control of

34:47

the company. So imagine you're, you're, you

34:50

know, a real Titanic dispute. They were

34:52

going out at hammer and tongs. Every

34:55

boardroom meeting was a Titanic

34:57

battle. There were lawsuits and arbitrations and things

35:00

had gotten to the media and the press

35:02

and there were character assassinations and had been

35:04

going on for two and a half years

35:07

and it was slated to go out and for at least another seven

35:09

years because Abilio was going to be chairman of the board. So

35:14

in a situation like that, where's the

35:16

bridge? You know, it seemed impossible. I

35:18

mean, everyone thought this was just absolutely

35:20

impossible. These two egos that these

35:22

two things, they just were going to go at

35:24

it. I, um, I

35:27

wasn't sure that I could be of any

35:29

help, but I agreed to meet with Abilio

35:31

and I met with him, not in his

35:33

office, but in his home because I

35:35

thought, okay, that's going to be a more propitious balcony.

35:38

And, uh, so I met with him

35:40

as home and his young, as he

35:42

had, he had a second family, his young

35:44

kids were running around, daughter and son, and,

35:46

and I was wondering why, what kind of, what

35:49

kind of father are they going to have? He's

35:51

so enmeshed in this Titanic

35:53

conflict. And so I asked

35:55

him, uh, key

35:58

question in a bridge, which is. Abilio,

36:00

tell me, what do you want? What

36:03

do you really want here? And which is a

36:05

question we can all ask ourselves in any conflict.

36:07

What do you really want? And he like a

36:09

very good business person rattled off his list of

36:11

like six, six things he wanted.

36:14

He wanted a certain amount of stock.

36:16

He wanted the elimination of the three

36:18

year non-compete clause. He wanted the company

36:20

headquarters. He wanted the company sports team.

36:22

He had a really good list. And

36:25

I looked at him. I said, yeah, I

36:27

understand that. But Abilio, what do

36:29

you really want? And

36:32

he looked at me for a moment and was like, what do you

36:34

mean? I really wanted to tell you what I wanted. Right. No,

36:37

no, what do you really want? Your man seems to have

36:39

everything. You've got, you know, you've got a family. You've got,

36:41

you've got, you know, more, you know, you've got ability to

36:43

do anything you want with your life. What do you really

36:45

want here? He

36:48

looked at me for a long time. There's silence and

36:50

silence is really important and

36:52

gives people a chance to kind of reflect. And

36:54

he finally looked at me and he said to

36:56

me, I want,

36:58

and he used Portuguese Liberdade,

37:00

which means freedom. I

37:03

want my freedom. And the

37:06

way he said it, the tonality in which

37:08

he said that gave me

37:10

a sense that I'd really hit gold there. That

37:12

was, you know, it's kind of an emotional tonality.

37:14

Like, wow, came from deep within him. He wanted

37:16

his freedom. He wanted

37:19

his freedom. And I knew that freedom actually had

37:21

a lot of resonance for him because many

37:23

years earlier, he'd been leaving his apartment and

37:25

he was kidnapped by a group of urban

37:28

political gorillas and they held him in a coffin

37:30

for a week and he thought he would never

37:32

survive. So he

37:35

felt like he was hostage. And that's how we

37:37

often feel in conflicts where I feel like we're

37:39

hostage to these situations and

37:41

he wanted his freedom. And

37:43

so I said, but so what

37:45

does freedom actually mean to you? So,

37:48

well, freedom actually means like time to spend with my

37:50

family. He pointed to his little kids and

37:52

his wife. You know, that's the

37:55

most important thing in my life. And it

37:57

means freedom to make the business deals I love to

37:59

make. Well,

38:01

that's the key to building

38:03

a golden bridge, which is to look

38:05

behind the positions, the concrete

38:07

things we say we want. You know, it's the

38:09

dollars and cents. In this case, it was a

38:12

stock and the limited amount of big clause in

38:14

the company headquarters. But what

38:16

are the underlying interests and needs, the

38:18

basic human needs that drive people? In

38:20

this case, it was freedom. And

38:23

also, as I found out,

38:25

it was dignity. You know, everyone wants their dignity.

38:27

He had gotten so public. He didn't want to

38:29

be seen as a loser, right? You know, he

38:32

was a very important, you know, business leader.

38:35

So it

38:37

was freedom and dignity. And

38:39

that was just enough. Oh,

38:41

and then there was one other thing I'll just say to him, which is

38:44

I asked him, which is a good question,

38:46

you know, again, an inner question, which is,

38:49

I said, Abilio, who can give you the

38:51

freedom that you really want? Is

38:54

it only Jean Charles, your business

38:56

rival, who's in France? Is

38:59

he the only one who controls your freedom? Or

39:03

do you actually have, can

39:06

you yourself give yourself some of that freedom? He

39:09

said, well, what do you mean? I said, well, you

39:11

want to spend time with your family? What's stopping you from

39:13

spending time with your family right now? What's

39:16

stopping you from doing business deals right now? And

39:19

he actually, it was

39:21

like that freedom, right? He

39:23

suddenly realized he was empowered, that he

39:25

actually had more power inside of himself

39:27

than he thought, which is again, it's

39:30

the way in which we trap ourselves in these conflicts

39:33

as we think, oh, the other side can liberate us.

39:35

But no, it's only we who

39:37

can start to really liberate ourselves from

39:39

within. And paradoxically, that

39:44

actually freed up, I don't

39:46

know whether to release some anxiety with him,

39:48

but it actually gave me more flexibility then.

39:50

So that when I met

39:52

with the representative of

39:54

his business rival, who was the

39:56

other person's mentor in Paris. I

40:01

met him on a Monday, and by Friday,

40:03

we found

40:05

a formula that both

40:09

business rivals, in this

40:11

impossible conflict, could both have

40:13

their freedom, both have their

40:15

dignity, and they

40:18

were signing an agreement to

40:20

end their dispute in a

40:22

law office. And I

40:24

took them both to the company headquarters

40:27

where they talked to the executives and

40:29

then Abigail later talked to all the

40:31

employees and so on and

40:33

explained what it was, and it was

40:35

over. It was over in like four days. Something

40:38

that had gone on for two and a half years

40:40

was widely expected to be impossible, and it was not

40:42

just a win for

40:44

each side, but more

40:46

importantly, it was also a win for their families

40:49

who were suffering from it, from all

40:51

the employees who had divided loyalties from the

40:53

communities in which they lived. And

40:57

it was just a real lesson for me. And when I

40:59

asked Abigail, I said, how do you feel

41:01

about it? He said, well, I got everything I wanted. He

41:04

said, but the most important thing is I got my life

41:06

back. And

41:08

later on, his wife, Jay, whom I just came

41:10

from visiting, said to me, you know

41:12

what? His

41:15

little son Miguel, he said, little Miguel

41:17

said to her, daddy's

41:20

not on the phone all the time. So

41:24

that was immensely, I don't

41:27

know, satisfying to me. It was kind of a

41:29

piece, and

41:32

it really transformed his life. He

41:36

said those, the last 11 years were the best

41:38

years of his life because he was free. And

41:41

that's what building a golden bridge means. It means

41:45

going to the balcony, listening, trying

41:48

to figure out what people really want,

41:50

trying to figure out if there's a way that both

41:52

sides can get their needs satisfied. And

41:54

the people around them, that's the

41:57

essence of a golden bridge. We

42:00

all have the capability of doing that in

42:02

whatever kind of disputes, whether it's in our

42:04

workplace or in our families, is

42:06

to build those bridges. That's why

42:09

balcony is about unlocking

42:12

the potential within us and

42:14

bridge is about unlocking the potential between us.

42:17

No, you mentioned it's possible

42:19

to be a possible list and also

42:21

look at the negative possibilities

42:23

in a situation. And

42:26

so I'd like to look at when

42:28

you're not able or we're not able

42:31

to build a golden bridge in

42:33

a situation, what's going on? What

42:35

makes it so we just can't do it? Like

42:37

we can always take that perspective

42:40

from the balcony, if you will, I think

42:42

you can always do that, always available any

42:44

moment. But it seems to me

42:46

that you can't always build a golden bridge. Wouldn't

42:49

you say that's true? I

42:51

absolutely that's true. It's hard in

42:53

a lot of situations or in

42:55

some situations, some situations we can

42:57

build it. And

43:00

actually what I find paradoxically,

43:03

and this is a paradox too,

43:06

is we

43:08

think what I hear people saying, well, it's

43:11

impossible to build that bridge. And so we've

43:13

got to be less, we've got to be more, got

43:16

to reduce what

43:18

we really want. We've

43:20

got to be less audacious, as it were.

43:23

And in my experience, we have to be more audacious. And

43:26

that's why I put the word golden in there. You

43:29

have to actually, for

43:32

example, with my friend, Abilio, the lawyers and

43:34

whatever, they were looking for a bridge, but

43:36

it was like, I've got to think I

43:38

split the difference compromise that was unsatisfying to

43:40

either side. And they never got anywhere really,

43:42

or you didn't get very far.

43:44

Okay, we're going to cut the non-compete clause, we're

43:46

going to give this amount of stock. They

43:49

talked about at that level, they talked more at

43:51

the surface level. By going

43:53

deeper, by trying to find out what each

43:55

side really wanted, we were able to

43:57

go down to the level of basic human needs.

44:00

something that we all want. Everyone wants

44:02

freedom, right? Everyone wants safety. Everyone wants

44:04

a sense of well-being. Everyone wants

44:06

their families to be well. Whatever

44:08

the thing is, dignity. These are

44:10

universal needs. And when

44:13

you frame it that way, suddenly

44:15

there are possibilities that

44:17

emerge that wouldn't

44:20

be otherwise obvious. And

44:22

having said that, there are going to be

44:24

situations in which, at least for

44:26

now, there's very little… you're

44:29

not going to reach agreement. You might be

44:31

able to transform the relationship, as we mentioned

44:33

before, but you're not going to reach agreement.

44:35

And that's why there's

44:38

three things in the book, right?

44:40

There's the balcony, there's the bridge,

44:42

but because it's hard for us

44:44

sometimes to go to the balcony,

44:46

and it's hard for us to

44:48

build the bridge, we

44:51

need that third source

44:53

of support. And we

44:56

can get into that. But oftentimes,

44:59

it's hard. It's hard to do. And we just have to

45:01

acknowledge it's hard to do. We need help. Now,

45:04

you brought up this word. We need

45:06

greater audacity. And

45:09

you say that one of the core principles,

45:12

if you will, of anyone who's

45:14

a possibleist is something you call

45:17

humble audacity. So

45:19

explain what you mean by

45:22

humble audacity. Yeah, it's a paradox.

45:24

But I believe in this world,

45:27

we're going to deal with the conflicts. I mean, we have to…

45:29

A possibleist is the kind

45:31

of realist, they look the situation

45:33

full in the eye, they see, wow, this is

45:35

going to be really hard. They look at the

45:37

negative possibilities, but then they use the negative possibilities

45:41

of war or

45:43

lawsuits or just destruction to

45:46

motivate them to look

45:48

for the positive possibilities. And humble

45:50

audacity means the more audacious you're

45:52

going to be, for

45:55

it to be working, you have to be

45:58

just as humble as you can be. you're going to

46:00

be audacious because humility allows us to

46:03

face the brutal facts, to face the situation

46:05

the way it is. It allows

46:07

us to listen to the other side. So it's

46:11

a paradox. The

46:13

more audacity, the more humility is needed in

46:16

order to be effective. And

46:19

I find that's the motto of

46:21

a good possible list

46:24

is humble audacity. You have to be

46:26

audacious enough to tilt that windmill or

46:29

to take on that situation. But

46:31

it requires equal amounts of checking your ego

46:34

at the door of humility,

46:36

to be able to see what's actually happening,

46:39

to face what's happening and to listen to the

46:41

other side because it's not so easy to do,

46:43

but that takes humility. It takes the ability to

46:48

look beyond your immediate selfish needs. Let's

46:52

talk about the third side because there's a

46:54

couple of other things I want to get

46:56

to, but I want to keep weaving this

46:59

all together for our listeners. This

47:01

is something really important and I think

47:03

quite fresh in the way

47:06

you approach creative problem solving, this

47:08

notion of bringing in the third side.

47:10

How did you first discover this? Well,

47:15

I had this question, like it's hard to

47:17

build those bridges, you know, both

47:19

in the micro and our home lives,

47:21

our work lives, but in the macro

47:24

in the world. Where's the

47:27

help going to come from? And back

47:29

in 1989, I began the year in Moscow. I

47:31

was working on

47:36

how to prevent, reduce the risk of a

47:38

nuclear war between the United States and

47:40

the Soviet Union. And

47:42

we had a conference in Moscow and it's

47:44

still in the Soviet Union around

47:47

the QA missile crisis where

47:49

we brought together the surviving participants of

47:51

the QA missile crisis on

47:53

all sides to really understand how did we

47:55

get so close to a thermonuclear war where

47:58

we wouldn't be having this conversation today. And

48:02

I was really sobered by it. I thought, well, wow, how are we

48:05

going to do this? And then I

48:07

went to Africa immediately thereafter with President

48:09

Carter, former President Carter, to try and,

48:12

trying to be a third party in wars in

48:15

Ethiopia and Sudan. And then I flew down to

48:18

South Africa and I wanted to, I'd

48:20

always wanted to spend time as an anthropologist with

48:23

the indigenous peoples of South Africa, the

48:26

first nations in South Africa, something called

48:28

the Bushmen, the Sun, go

48:30

by different names and live out in the Kalahari. And

48:34

they were practicing hunter-gatherers

48:36

and certainly within living

48:38

memories, they'd been full-time

48:40

practicing hunter-gatherers. And

48:42

I was curious because human beings, we evolved as

48:44

hunters and gatherers. That was our basic lifestyle for

48:46

99% of our history. And

48:49

I want to know how did they resolve conflict? And

48:52

I spent some weeks with

48:55

two different groups in

48:58

the Kalahari, in Namibia and Botswana. And

49:01

what's interesting was I

49:04

observed them and I interviewed them as how

49:06

about they did it. And what they

49:09

do is they don't

49:11

see conflict the way we see conflict. We

49:13

tend to see conflict always as just two

49:15

sides. You know, there's a

49:18

husband versus a wife, there's sales, you

49:20

know, there's labor versus management, sales versus

49:22

manufacturing, I don't know, there's just two

49:24

sides, you versus your neighbor, you

49:27

know, Arabs versus Israelis, whatever, the Democrats

49:29

versus Republicans, always two sides. They

49:32

actually see that there's actually a third

49:35

side to the conflict, which

49:37

is the surrounding community. All

49:39

the people around, of

49:42

which the parties actually are part, but

49:44

there's the larger community. It's the third

49:46

side. The third side is the

49:48

side of the whole that we're often blind

49:50

to. And so when a

49:53

dispute starts to arise in their communities,

49:56

they live in small scale societies, it

49:59

turns out that every man uses this

50:01

poison for poison arrows for

50:04

hunting and it's absolutely fatal.

50:06

And if

50:10

someone gets angry, all they do is they just,

50:12

you know, it's like injecting someone else and the

50:14

person's going to die, but it takes three days.

50:16

So the person who shot will then pick up another

50:18

arrow and shoot someone else and pretty soon, two, three,

50:20

four, you know, if you have a small group of

50:23

25, you've got, you know, all your hunting capacity is

50:25

gone. So what do they do when tempers

50:28

start to rise, everyone listens

50:30

and pays attention. And then someone

50:32

goes and hides the poison arrows out in the

50:34

desert. And then the

50:36

whole community gathers around the campfire. I mean,

50:39

the women, the men, even the

50:41

children, and they just talk

50:43

and they listen to each other and they just

50:46

all talk, you know, it's a little bit disorganized,

50:48

but they, they talk and they'll, they'll

50:50

sit around for a day or

50:52

two days or three days, but they don't rest

50:55

until they get to the bottom of it of what's

50:58

causing this disturbance. And

51:00

it's not enough just to reach an agreement. There

51:04

has to be some kind of reconciliation in the relationship

51:06

because they know that, you know, if you

51:08

just settle it like there, maybe it erupts

51:10

the next week. And if tempers

51:12

are too high, you know, the

51:14

elders who often voice the consensus of the

51:16

group will suggest to one of the parties

51:18

that they go visit a relative at another

51:20

watering hole for a few months, there's a

51:22

kind of cooling off period. So they have

51:24

an entire system based on community

51:27

involvement, which is the intervention

51:29

of the third side to

51:32

actually transform conflicts. And

51:34

I suddenly

51:36

realized, you know, that's our birthright. Every,

51:39

every indigenous culture has that. And we

51:41

do too, but we have to reinvent

51:43

it in our modern context. And

51:45

I thought, well, how does that work on a modern

51:47

thing? But then I went down from there to South

51:49

Africa, which was then, you know, beset by the

51:52

evils of apartheid. And I watched

51:55

the same thing happen, which is the

51:57

whole society came together, you know, the

52:00

in this community, the labor community, the

52:02

women's groups, the faith leaders,

52:04

the society mobilized as

52:07

a kind of container to say,

52:10

hey, we need to end

52:12

apartheid, we need to move towards majoritarian

52:15

democracy. The community mobilized

52:18

and that third side within South

52:20

Africa of the civil society was

52:22

supported by an external third side of

52:25

the international community. And those

52:27

two containers were sufficient

52:29

to allow a conflict

52:31

to transform in about

52:34

four or five years, which seemed absolutely impossible.

52:36

And I saw the third side in

52:39

action in a large scale,

52:41

complex modern society. And I realized

52:44

that's the secret. The secret is

52:46

us. The secret is all of

52:48

us working together. And they're inherent

52:51

in any situation is there's

52:53

always a third side. And that's the potential

52:55

we need to tap into to help

52:58

the parties go to the balcony and

53:00

build those golden bridges. When

53:03

you see something like the third

53:05

side in action right now

53:07

with a very difficult seeming

53:10

to many people, impossible conflict

53:13

in our world happening right

53:15

now in the Middle

53:17

East between Israel and

53:19

the people of Palestine, there's

53:22

a sense that the third side is also

53:24

arguing and as part of the chaos

53:26

and is adding to the conflict and

53:29

not coming together necessarily to

53:31

be part of a solution.

53:34

I'm wondering how you see that.

53:36

And for those of us who want

53:38

to be a positive part of the

53:40

third side, what

53:42

kinds of directions you'd point us in? Well,

53:47

the first thing is it's heartbreaking what's

53:49

going on there right now. It's absolutely

53:51

heartbreaking and horrific. And well,

53:57

one side may win a battle, you know. in

54:00

the end, everyone loses the war in the long

54:02

term because everyone loses, and particularly we're losing our

54:04

course of the innocence. And

54:09

so I would say there the

54:12

opportunity is, again,

54:14

just flying the same things

54:17

we're talking about, is

54:21

we need globally and actually people need to

54:23

go to the balcony because what's happening is

54:26

this reactive, it's often

54:28

trauma-based reaction that's

54:30

going at it. And

54:34

so the first step

54:36

is to go to the balcony and ask, what

54:38

do people really want? What's the real question here?

54:40

Is the real question, which is what's often seen

54:42

in the press is who's winning and who's losing?

54:46

If you ask that question in a

54:48

marriage, who's winning this marriage? Your marriage

54:50

is in serious difficulty. And on

54:52

a larger scale, the Israelis

54:55

and Palestinians are like in a bad marriage.

54:57

I mean, it's like they're living in the

54:59

same land. And so the question

55:01

is not who's going to win and who's going to

55:03

lose. The question is, because if

55:05

you're asking that question, all sides

55:08

eventually lose, is

55:10

how can two peoples live

55:14

side by side in the same land in

55:20

security and safety, in

55:23

dignity and in peace? And

55:25

if that's the question, then you reframe

55:28

the question. And

55:30

to reframe the

55:33

question in order to build those bridges, is it

55:35

going to be easy? No. Is

55:37

it going to take time? Yes. Is

55:39

there a solution? Let's give

55:42

up the notion of solutions. There's going to

55:44

be no quick fix, but there

55:46

are processes. There

55:49

is no ending to it, but there

55:51

are beginnings. And that is going

55:53

to take the mobilization,

55:55

the activation of the third

55:57

side, both within the Middle

55:59

East. you know, in Israel

56:01

and Palestine and within the larger region and

56:04

within the United States to forge a

56:08

winning coalition, a container within which

56:10

that conflict can gradually be transformed.

56:12

Does it seem impossible? It

56:14

seems oftentimes, of course, to a lot of people

56:16

it seems impossible. But again, if

56:19

Catholics and Protestants could do this in Northern

56:21

Ireland, when it also seemed absolutely impossible and

56:24

it was also the religion involved and a

56:26

lot of things, like blacks and whites in

56:28

South Africa could do it, if Colombians can

56:30

do it, Israelis and Palestinians can

56:33

do it too. And there are examples,

56:35

actually. There are

56:37

examples of successes that can be built on. So

56:40

it's difficult, but

56:43

it's not impossible because whatever, just

56:46

remember the conflict in the

56:48

end is created by human beings and

56:50

it can be changed by human beings. When

56:54

you say, William, there are beginnings.

56:56

Tell me what you mean when

56:59

you see beginnings, maybe little even

57:01

seeds or shoots right now. Well,

57:06

let me just give you an example that people

57:08

forget about. But you know, there was 30 years

57:12

ago, there was a major

57:14

surprise attack by

57:17

an Arab nation,

57:19

in this case, Egypt, on

57:21

Israel, on the holiest day of the Jewish

57:24

calendar, Yom Kippur, the Yom Kippur work. Thousands

57:27

of people were killed. It seemed like

57:29

a major catastrophe, even an existential threat

57:31

and so on. And

57:33

that was in 1973. When

57:37

I was still, when I was a

57:39

graduate student studying negotiation, I was amazed

57:41

to see in

57:44

1978, out

57:46

of the wreckage and out of the

57:49

seeming impossibility, because Israel and Egypt were

57:51

the two major military powers of the

57:53

time, they'd fought four wars in the

57:55

previous 25 years. And

57:57

every observer's expectation was there's going to be another

57:59

one. The war soon. And

58:02

instead. Ah,

58:04

President Carter, Jimmy Carter brought the

58:06

adversaries to Camp David to a

58:08

balcony. a place of nature place

58:10

a perspective not just for one

58:12

day, but for thirteen days. Brought.

58:15

Them, their. The. Leaders of

58:18

Egypt and the Leaders of Israel.

58:20

And. It was not

58:22

easy, but in the end. Would.

58:25

Emerge. Was.

58:27

And. Through. Going. To the

58:30

balcony. Very. Interesting

58:32

negotiation methodology is and I happen to have

58:34

be a fly on the wall because I

58:36

would participate a little bit in preparing a

58:39

memo about those kind of negotiation methodology is

58:41

that went to the Americans and was used.

58:44

But. The but the amazing thing was

58:46

out of that. Came.

58:49

Ah, A Peace Accord. Camp

58:51

David Peace Accords between Egypt and Israel

58:53

that have lasted to this day in

58:56

a forty five years later through wars

58:58

assassination. Could it as it Again, It

59:00

didn't end the conflict, but it ended

59:03

the war. It transformed the relationship. And

59:05

it's so we have examples of that

59:07

already in the Middle East that we

59:10

can learn from. One.

59:15

Of the questions I have for you William

59:17

than. Reading. Possible and hearing

59:19

about all of your examples

59:21

that are taking place on

59:23

such a large scale is.

59:26

I think I have a sense

59:28

of how to apply. Here were

59:31

says the immediate challenges in my

59:33

life and in my relationships. I

59:35

gave what seems like such a

59:37

small example. In retrospect you know

59:40

a neighbor with property dispute. that

59:42

probably pretty common for people with

59:44

their neighbors and of course we

59:46

can offer made. I thanked her,

59:48

our intimate partners and the people

59:50

we work with. But when you

59:52

talk about conflicts and solving conflicts

59:55

at such a large global scale

59:57

the examples you guess. I

59:59

notice I see. and maybe some of our

1:00:01

listeners feel, I feel it's just sort of like out

1:00:03

of my realm of experience.

1:00:06

I don't know how to be

1:00:09

a helpful third side member in

1:00:11

so many of these situations. I

1:00:13

don't feel educated enough or knowledgeable

1:00:16

enough. So I wonder

1:00:19

how you think the principles that

1:00:22

you're talking about, how we can apply

1:00:24

them in this larger way, when that's

1:00:26

not the arena we operate in as

1:00:28

people. For

1:00:31

sure, I understand that Tammy. This

1:00:33

is what I would say, I'm an anthropologist.

1:00:36

An anthropologist is someone who studies human beings,

1:00:40

and studies human

1:00:42

nature, human culture. And what

1:00:45

I found in my experience, because

1:00:47

I work at all the different levels,

1:00:49

is human beings are human beings. And

1:00:52

so whether it's settling

1:00:54

something with your partner or

1:00:57

your workplace, or trying to settle things between

1:00:59

two nations, of course there

1:01:01

are differences, major differences in context. But

1:01:03

it's basically human beings dealing with human

1:01:05

beings, and the same principles apply, balcony,

1:01:07

bridge, and third side, just as examples,

1:01:09

the importance of listening. And I'll just

1:01:11

give you an example too. I mean,

1:01:13

in the end, all of

1:01:15

this boils down to things that are

1:01:17

personal, like go back to Camp David

1:01:19

for a moment. The

1:01:23

last day at Camp David, President

1:01:26

Carter, the Americans were able to bring the

1:01:28

Egyptians and Israelis, okay, we've got a potential

1:01:30

agreement here. They're getting ready, they're packing their

1:01:33

bags, getting ready to go to Washington, the

1:01:35

White House to announce it. And

1:01:37

then it all breaks down, which is often

1:01:39

what happens, things like that, those last minute breakdowns,

1:01:42

there was a blow up because President

1:01:45

Carter had promised President

1:01:48

Sadat of Egypt a side letter on

1:01:50

Jerusalem. Prime Minister Begin

1:01:52

of Israel heard about it. Jerusalem

1:01:54

was like a nerve, live

1:01:57

nerve For him and for

1:01:59

the Israelis. And so they said,

1:02:01

That's it. Is all off? Or.

1:02:04

This is delegation to pack your bags and was

1:02:06

all over. Or seem that way.

1:02:09

And so President Carter them.

1:02:13

In. A went over to prime minister their

1:02:15

the had to little different cabins camp

1:02:17

David sizes what you went over to

1:02:19

to from his cabin over to prime

1:02:21

minister to baggins cabin and he remembered

1:02:24

the bag and had asked his assistant.

1:02:26

Previous. To the a few days earlier

1:02:28

for. Signed. picture of.

1:02:31

Carter. With begun and so.you know.

1:02:33

And so he went up for his

1:02:36

grandchildren and so I think there were

1:02:38

like Acres children. so it's He signed

1:02:40

each picture very carefully. Or

1:02:42

that person's name is he met I've

1:02:44

and son and he signed it. You

1:02:46

know very carefully you know I with

1:02:48

loves. Jimmy Carter. And.

1:02:51

And he went over sad of course, because

1:02:54

the thing at sales and he was thinking

1:02:56

of all the consequences of failure including war.

1:02:59

And. And he went over to

1:03:01

Begun and. And he handed

1:03:03

him the the books. He said mr

1:03:05

Prime Minister, you you'd asked me for

1:03:07

these both sign books and I haven't

1:03:09

begun. Open one of the boats

1:03:11

and he saw. His grandchild

1:03:14

name for each. You

1:03:16

know, And then Med offs.

1:03:19

And suddenly is I started to

1:03:21

fill with cheers. And.

1:03:25

Carter said, you know I would hope to tell

1:03:27

them. That their grandfather

1:03:29

and I am an ad ad

1:03:31

helps bring peace. family. To.

1:03:33

Their countries. And. Helped to be

1:03:36

able to tell them that and. Begun

1:03:39

didn't cave that moment, But the

1:03:41

mood. Distinctly. Shifted

1:03:43

at that human being. The human

1:03:45

being touched. And.

1:03:48

Present cutter than last, the cabin.

1:03:51

And went over to President Sadat to tell him

1:03:53

what happened and we got back to his cabin.

1:03:56

He. got a call from ah megan who

1:03:58

said do you I've

1:04:01

decided I'm going to let that

1:04:03

side letter of Jerusalem go. We can go ahead

1:04:05

with the agreement. And so

1:04:07

it all boils down in the end to human being

1:04:09

to human being. And so

1:04:12

it's the same that you'll see

1:04:14

if you were just parachuted into these

1:04:16

situations, you just see human beings contending

1:04:18

with issues. It's just that the stakes

1:04:20

seem to be higher and they're more

1:04:22

complex too because there are more people.

1:04:24

But it's the same basic dynamics

1:04:26

often at work and the same

1:04:29

basic principles apply. All

1:04:32

right, William, I have two final questions for you.

1:04:34

They're both personal. The first

1:04:36

one is something I've noticed that

1:04:38

people who have done a really

1:04:42

big work in the world is

1:04:45

this way that it seems about

1:04:47

what they've given to other people, but

1:04:50

somehow in the process. They've

1:04:52

really been changed by the work

1:04:54

they've done. And I wonder for a

1:04:56

moment, you could reflect how

1:04:58

you've been changed by

1:05:01

all of this creative, collaborative

1:05:03

problem solving work you've done.

1:05:07

Yeah, Tammy, it's absolutely true. It's

1:05:13

been a lifetime of using

1:05:17

myself as a little lab because

1:05:20

I have to learn and trying to

1:05:22

take lessons from this area and apply

1:05:24

it at home and whatever. So

1:05:27

I feel like it's been a

1:05:29

lifelong lesson in learning, in pausing,

1:05:32

in listening, in going

1:05:35

to the balcony, building a bridge, taking the third

1:05:37

side. And without

1:05:39

question, it's hard work.

1:05:42

But the interesting thing I've found is

1:05:45

when I was a boy, when I was

1:05:49

five or six, my family

1:05:51

moved to Europe for a bit. And it wasn't that

1:05:53

long after World War II. And Europe was very different.

1:05:55

You could feel the shock waves

1:05:58

of World War II. World

1:06:00

War I before it and tens of millions of data.

1:06:02

There were ruins you could see and there was a,

1:06:05

every expectation there'd be World War III. There

1:06:07

was a nuclear bomb shelter in the school,

1:06:09

you know, with big steel blast doors.

1:06:12

And I felt like, wow, I started to worry

1:06:14

about it as a kid. I thought, wow, the

1:06:17

whole world's gonna blow to smithereens because, you know,

1:06:19

because we can't get along with each other. So

1:06:21

that really planted the question and what I've found

1:06:23

actually, and you know, I saw

1:06:26

it in the smaller scale, I saw the quarrels at

1:06:28

the family dinner table. So I had that question of

1:06:30

how can we human beings deal with our differences at

1:06:33

whatever level they are? There must be

1:06:35

a better way. And that's

1:06:37

been my lifelong guiding question. And

1:06:40

somehow, interestingly, by

1:06:43

moving into the middle, by

1:06:45

going into the middle of conflict, going often

1:06:48

into places that people would consider to be

1:06:50

the hearts of darkness, actually,

1:06:53

I find

1:06:55

a release like first, you know,

1:06:57

kind of like, oh, okay, I'm

1:06:59

engaged. The anxiety starts to fade.

1:07:02

The, I start to feel animated.

1:07:05

I'm engaged, I'm acting, I'm moving. And

1:07:07

what's so interesting is that in those

1:07:10

situations, we're working with parties themselves who

1:07:12

are struggling with the conflicts. It's

1:07:15

amazing the sense of

1:07:17

aliveness that

1:07:19

starts to emerge as people engage with

1:07:21

these issues, instead of like numbing them,

1:07:24

or just attacking the other side. And

1:07:27

it's just, it's really, in

1:07:30

the end, it's what would seem

1:07:32

to be extremely hard, you

1:07:34

know, really,

1:07:37

you know, work

1:07:39

you wouldn't wish anyone. It can

1:07:42

become enormously fulfilling. And the other

1:07:45

thing I think about it is, you know,

1:07:47

the mission sometimes may seem impossible, but the

1:07:49

company is often awfully good. You just find

1:07:52

the players on the parties or other

1:07:54

third parties. It's just like

1:07:57

when you're tackling these difficult

1:07:59

situations. There's an aliveness,

1:08:01

there's an electricity that feeds us,

1:08:03

and I think that's the magic

1:08:05

of conflict, and that's actually transformed

1:08:07

my life. Final

1:08:11

question, William. I can't end our

1:08:13

conversation without having you share with

1:08:15

our listeners briefly, the

1:08:17

story of your very own

1:08:20

possible list daughter, and

1:08:22

what you recount in the book

1:08:24

possible she was able to achieve.

1:08:28

Right. My daughter Gabi has been

1:08:30

my greatest teacher. She was born,

1:08:32

she's 25 now, but

1:08:35

she was born with congenital

1:08:37

issues that affected her organs,

1:08:39

her bones, her spinal cord,

1:08:42

her spine, and she

1:08:44

actually ended up having over 15, 16 major surgeries. We

1:08:49

thought we didn't know if she would live. The

1:08:53

one thing is that she, as

1:08:55

a child, she

1:08:58

never wanted to be treated any different. She

1:09:00

wanted to show she could do anything, and

1:09:02

even though she was a lot shorter, and

1:09:05

she couldn't run as fast, and so on.

1:09:09

She always wanted to be in the Guinness Book of World Records.

1:09:13

When she was 15, the girls went for a

1:09:16

run, and she couldn't

1:09:18

go for a run, and the teacher said, what once you do a plank? You

1:09:21

put your forearms down on the floor and you

1:09:23

hold your body rigid, and see how long you

1:09:26

can hold it. I can hold it for about

1:09:28

30 seconds or a minute. When

1:09:32

they came back, Gabi

1:09:34

was still holding the plank. It had been like eight

1:09:36

or nine minutes, so the teacher said, what? Suddenly,

1:09:39

she went, ah, Guinness World Record. She

1:09:41

went and sent away for the record.

1:09:43

The record at the time for longest

1:09:46

female abdominal plank was 40 minutes. So

1:09:48

she started training, and she sent away, and she

1:09:50

took it seriously on her birthday, because you couldn't

1:09:52

go for these things until you were 16. She

1:09:56

decided to go for it, and lo and

1:09:58

behold, if she didn't... and

1:10:01

hold the plank for an hour and 20 minutes

1:10:04

at her birthday party. And

1:10:07

she doubled the world record and the next

1:10:09

week she was on Good Morning America and

1:10:11

Guinness World Records was representing with a world

1:10:13

medal. And she gave a talk

1:10:16

about it, a TED Talk about it, and

1:10:18

she entitled it, What's Wrong With

1:10:20

Me? Absolutely

1:10:22

nothing. So

1:10:25

she's a possibleist and she's

1:10:28

been one of my greatest inspirations and teachers and

1:10:30

it's actually to her that I've dedicated the book.

1:10:34

I've been speaking with

1:10:36

William Urie, a possibleist

1:10:39

inspiring other possibleists. He's

1:10:42

the author of the new book, Possible,

1:10:45

How We Survive and Thrive

1:10:47

in an Age of Conflict.

1:10:50

A final humble but audacious

1:10:52

call out to all the

1:10:55

possibleists, William. Yes,

1:10:57

well, this is the thing. My

1:11:00

request for you, I'm a grandfather and I have

1:11:02

a little one-year-old grandson, almost

1:11:05

two actually, Diego. And

1:11:07

when I had a chance to hold him in

1:11:10

my arms on his first day and for

1:11:12

an hour, I thought, okay, there's all this

1:11:14

potential, this possibility in a young being like

1:11:16

that, as we know, with children and grandchildren.

1:11:19

I was wondering what kind of world we're going

1:11:21

to leave them. And so my request is

1:11:25

that you, every one of

1:11:27

us has these abilities. Every one

1:11:30

of us has these abilities to be

1:11:32

curious, to be creative, to be collaborative.

1:11:34

There are birthright. So my humble request

1:11:37

to you is to take

1:11:39

your natural inner possibleist, apply those

1:11:41

natural human capabilities to the conflicts

1:11:43

around you, starting with the ones

1:11:45

at home, at work, and

1:11:49

then gradually bring you out into the world

1:11:51

because if we can transform our conflicts, we

1:11:54

can truly transform our lives and we can

1:11:56

transform this world. Thank

1:11:58

you. And

1:12:04

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1:12:06

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1:12:59

for watching.