0:06

Hey everyone, it's

0:06

Simi Shah, and welcome to

0:10

trailblazers. On this podcast, I

0:10

dive deep into the journeys of

0:14

trailblazing South Asians,

0:14

sharing the stories of the

0:18

leaders and dreamers lighting

0:18

the way across the South Asian

0:22

diaspora. Hello, my Trailblazers

0:22

I'm so thrilled to be back after

0:27

our very short midseason hiatus,

0:27

and today I have an exciting

0:31

announcement we are hosting Yes,

0:31

another events, a breakfast for

0:36

South Asian founders in the CPG

0:36

space on Friday, May 19 in New

0:40

York City. If you are a CPG

0:40

founder, operator or stakeholder

0:44

and you're interested in

0:44

attending, please email us at

0:48

South Asian

0:48

[email protected] or

0:51

message us on Instagram,

0:51

LinkedIn wherever you like. As

0:55

always, we will continue hosting

0:55

events for leaders in our space

0:59

and community as well as

0:59

amplifying other community

1:03

events in our newsletter. So if

1:03

you haven't already, be sure to

1:08

subscribe at South Asian

1:08

trailblazers.com. With that,

1:11

let's get to the very special

1:11

episode I have for you guys.

1:15

Today I'm thrilled to welcome

1:15

Pooja Goyal. Pooja is the chief

1:20

investment officer of Carlisle

1:20

global infrastructure, co head

1:24

of the Carlyle global

1:24

infrastructure Opportunity Fund,

1:28

and head of renewable and

1:28

sustainable energy. In case you

1:32

aren't familiar, Carlyle is one

1:32

of the world's largest

1:36

investment firms. They

1:36

specialize in private equity and

1:40

private credit, and with over

1:40

381 billion assets under

1:44

management. Carlyle is one of

1:44

the world's largest megaphones.

1:48

Prior to joining Carlyle, Pooja

1:48

was the head of the alternative

1:53

energy investing group at

1:53

Goldman Sachs, where she led

1:56

Goldman's investments in the

1:56

renewables sector. She's been

2:01

investing in this sector since

2:01

2005, when she joined the group

2:05

as an associate. She was

2:05

promoted to managing director in

2:09

2012 and took over as head of

2:09

the group in 2013. And under her

2:13

leadership, the group builds a

2:13

portfolio of investments

2:17

dedicated to the renewable

2:17

energy and sustainable resources

2:22

sector. Pooja has held several

2:22

board and committee positions

2:26

including the boards of Vivint

2:26

Solar and the American Council

2:30

of renewable energy, and the

2:30

investment committees that all

2:34

his power and Goldman Sachs is

2:34

America's special situations

2:39

group. Prior to 2005, she was

2:39

part of the investment banking

2:43

division of Goldman Sachs. Pooja

2:43

is a graduate of the University

2:47

of Pennsylvania, where she

2:47

received a BS in finance from

2:51

Wharton, and a BA BS in computer

2:51

and cognitive science from the

2:56

School of Engineering and

2:56

Applied Sciences. She's on the

3:00

board of advisors of the School

3:00

of Engineering, and on the Board

3:04

of Trustees for the ethical

3:04

culture fieldston school in New

3:09

York City. Pooja, and I have so

3:09

much to discuss in regards to

3:13

her leadership at the

3:13

intersection of finance and the

3:17

future of energy. And as many of

3:17

you know, I spent an early part

3:21

of my career in the world of

3:21

investing, which makes me all

3:26

the more excited to talk to her

3:26

today. Pooja, thank you so much

3:30

for being here.

3:33

Well, first of all,

3:33

thanks for having me, Simi. I'm

3:36

just so excited to be part of

3:36

this podcast.

3:39

Absolutely. Now, as I

3:39

said, we have a lot to discuss

3:44

in regards to your leadership at

3:44

the intersection of finance and

3:47

the renewable sector and

3:47

infrastructure, broadly

3:50

speaking, what I found that when

3:50

someone finds their niche early

3:55

in their career as you did, that

3:55

propensity is usually rooted in

4:00

their upbringing. And so I'm

4:00

curious in what ways did growing

4:04

up in Mumbai shape your early

4:04

interest in the world of energy

4:08

and infrastructure?

4:11

It's so interesting

4:11

that you asked that question

4:14

Simi. And I do think that people

4:14

have a tendency to plan out

4:18

their careers or their

4:18

education, which will eventually

4:21

lead to what we all hope are

4:21

fulfilling careers commercially,

4:25

as well as personally and

4:25

professionally. But growing up

4:29

in India, I had your typical

4:29

Indian upbringing, where there

4:33

was just a lot of focus on

4:33

academic excellence, and that if

4:37

you got the right grades, you

4:37

would go to the right college.

4:40

And then after that, I come from

4:40

a family of serial

4:44

entrepreneurs. And my father had

4:44

told me at a very early age that

4:48

the ultimate success of a

4:48

business is quite dependent on

4:52

the availability of capital. And

4:52

so I knew that I want to do

4:55

study something in finance or

4:55

end up getting a job in finance.

4:59

So at least So I would

4:59

understand how financial markets

5:03

work. So I would say that first

5:03

and foremost, my focus was on

5:07

understanding how capital

5:07

markets work, and really how the

5:11

financial system operates. And

5:11

then after that, a little bit of

5:15

it is coincidence, a little bit

5:15

of it is what I ended up doing

5:19

in college that ended up with me

5:19

getting a job in the leveraged

5:23

finance group at Goldman Sachs.

5:23

And I ended up focusing

5:26

primarily on either placing

5:26

complex insurance risks in the

5:30

capital markets, or capital

5:30

markets risk in the insurance

5:34

market or focusing on commodity

5:34

linked financings. And the way

5:38

it happens on Wall Street

5:38

sometimes is you end up getting

5:41

pigeonholed almost quite early

5:41

on in your career. And so that's

5:45

really how I got my foot in the

5:45

door when it came to the

5:49

commodity markets. And then

5:49

after that one thing led to the

5:53

other. And I ended up

5:53

specializing in the energy transition.

5:58

super interesting.

5:58

And I'm quite familiar with how

6:02

that process works, because I

6:02

spent part of my early career in

6:05

finance. And I'm curious, I

6:05

mean, as you said, you

6:08

immigrated to the US to attend

6:08

the University of Pennsylvania,

6:12

you followed a relatively

6:12

traditional path of starting

6:15

your career in finance, in

6:15

investment banking at Goldman

6:18

Sachs. But your introduction to

6:18

the firm started with a project

6:22

on catastrophe bonds, can you

6:22

tell us a little bit about how

6:26

that all came to pass?

6:27

Yeah, it was super

6:27

interesting, because I was

6:30

studying under the dual degree

6:30

program at the University of

6:34

Pennsylvania, it is a fantastic

6:34

program, which enables you to

6:38

get two degrees from two

6:38

different colleges at the

6:41

University. So I was already

6:41

studying for a finance degree at

6:45

the Wharton School. And I

6:45

decided to also get a degree in

6:49

computer science from the

6:49

engineering school. And I needed

6:52

to find a job because two

6:52

degrees meant a full course

6:56

load. But I also didn't want to

6:56

spend five years getting my two

7:00

degrees. So I was accelerating,

7:00

my car slowed a little bit. And

7:04

I wanted to support my parents

7:04

also, to a certain extent in

7:08

terms of the obligation they

7:08

taken on with my tuition. So I

7:11

wanted to get an on campus job.

7:11

And so I started applying for

7:15

these research jobs, which was a

7:15

great way for me to get some

7:19

sort of experience in terms of

7:19

the practical application of

7:23

what I was studying in the

7:23

classroom. And there was this

7:27

one research project. And it was

7:27

a bit of a hybrid between the

7:31

engineering school as well as

7:31

Wharton. And it was around the

7:34

study of catastrophe bonds,

7:34

which is how do you take risks

7:38

and losses associated with

7:38

earthquakes or hurricanes, which

7:42

are natural disasters or

7:42

catastrophes, and you place that

7:46

risk in the capital markets. And

7:46

it just so happened, that the

7:50

previous students who had had

7:50

that job, they all came from

7:53

this dual degree background, so

7:53

I think they were somewhat

7:57

partial to recruiting students

7:57

who had that technical skill

8:01

set. And then by the time I

8:01

ended up applying for my summer

8:05

internship to Goldman Sachs, one

8:05

of my predecessors from that

8:08

research program was already an

8:08

analyst at Goldman Sachs. And

8:12

they were working on these

8:12

catastrophe bonds, which for me,

8:16

was like intellectually, very

8:16

exciting, but I could see a real

8:20

world application to what I'd

8:20

been studying at the university.

8:24

And so that's really how I ended

8:24

up getting my job at Goldman.

8:28

Wow. And, you know,

8:28

as you alluded to earlier,

8:31

bankers and people in the world

8:31

of finance are often corralled,

8:35

if not pigeon holed into

8:35

specific industry groups pretty

8:39

early on. And as a banker, you

8:39

know, you might work on

8:42

everything from underwriting

8:42

IPOs, to massive m&a

8:45

transactions, and you began your

8:45

career in leveraged finance.

8:49

Banking is, of course, a

8:49

notoriously intense job. But I'm

8:52

curious in what ways this

8:52

experience helps cement your

8:56

interest in the world of energy

8:56

and energy transition and our alternatives.

9:01

You know, you make

9:01

such a good point. And I do

9:03

think that that is a criticism

9:03

for our industry that we do tend

9:06

to pigeonhole people or

9:06

specialized people very early

9:10

on. And that is where I did feel

9:10

that my peers who had more of a

9:14

network either because they had

9:14

family members who had worked at

9:18

a bank previously or understood

9:18

financial services previously,

9:22

really benefited from just

9:22

mentorship and guidance. And

9:27

coming out of university. I

9:27

still remember you know, joking

9:30

around about this. When I was a

9:30

junior applying for internships

9:34

at an AI bank. We used to all

9:34

call it AI bank. For the longest

9:38

time I thought it was internet

9:38

banking. I didn't know that it

9:41

stood for investment banking.

9:41

And so you know, I do feel that

9:46

in order to make the industry

9:46

more inclusive, we need to allow

9:50

for people to have mobility,

9:50

absolutely, or develop more

9:53

flexible skill sets so they

9:53

don't get specialized so early

9:56

on in their career, because in

9:56

the absence of that mentors

10:00

trippin guidance, it becomes

10:00

very, very difficult to try to

10:03

do something else. But I will

10:03

say for me working in leveraged

10:07

finance at Goldman, I almost

10:07

turned around that narrative

10:11

where it was a lot easier to

10:11

explain to people if you had

10:15

worked on a large m&a

10:15

transaction that was on the

10:17

front page of the Wall Street

10:17

Journal. And I said that while I

10:21

might not be doing that, I was

10:21

also not using your standard m&a

10:25

model. Because of the complexity

10:25

of the deals that I was doing, I

10:29

was able to build these models

10:29

from scratch, really understand

10:33

the nitty gritty of how these

10:33

different balance sheet work,

10:37

how to think about raising money

10:37

for transactions or acids in the

10:42

commodity markets, and it kind

10:42

of gave me an edge. So I almost

10:46

use that to my advantage a

10:46

little bit while talking to

10:49

people, which is that, yeah,

10:49

these might not be the most

10:52

topical deals that people were

10:52

reading about in the newspapers.

10:57

But I was creating almost like a

10:57

proprietary skill set, and maybe

11:01

one day that would be of use to someone.

11:04

Wow. I mean, I spent

11:04

a summer in banking. And then I

11:08

started my career in private

11:08

equity. But I remember, even in

11:11

my intern years, so much of the

11:11

conversation would be that

11:14

people working in love fin have

11:14

the toughest job and the models

11:18

that they were building, and the

11:18

analyses they were doing, were

11:21

just not comparable to any other

11:21

industry group, because they

11:24

were so complex to your point.

11:24

So it's really interesting how

11:26

you took that and turn it into a

11:26

strength when you were having

11:29

these conversations.

11:31

Yeah, and you know,

11:31

later on to that the complexity

11:34

of commodity markets,

11:34

understanding how gas markets

11:37

work, or power markets work, or

11:37

even the oil markets work, it's

11:41

completely different. And those

11:41

markets can oftentimes get

11:44

disrupted with events that might

11:44

not be related to what's

11:47

happening in the capital

11:47

markets, either. Weather

11:50

patterns can have an impact on

11:50

commodity prices. So look at

11:53

what's intellectually

11:53

interesting to me. You know,

11:56

oftentimes, people have a

11:56

tendency when choosing their

11:59

first job, or even subsequent

11:59

jobs, they tend to go where the

12:03

tide is, or catch the tide,

12:03

rather. And you know, I always

12:06

say this to people, which is

12:06

find something that is

12:09

intellectually interesting to

12:09

you, and the rest will follow.

12:12

If you continue to find it

12:12

interesting, you're continuing

12:14

to be challenged, you're

12:14

learning, you do have to be

12:18

strategic about planning your

12:18

career. But first and foremost,

12:21

you got to feel like you're

12:21

really learning and pushing

12:24

yourself, at least in the early

12:24

innings of your career.

12:28

Absolutely, I

12:28

appreciate that. And definitely

12:31

advice I will continue to take

12:31

to heart. Now after spending

12:35

three years as a banker, you

12:35

decide to switch over the buy

12:39

side, you join Goldman's

12:39

alternative energy investing

12:42

group, where you eventually

12:42

became a managing director and

12:46

served as head of alternative

12:46

energy investing. What was it

12:50

like making the transition to

12:50

role of investor and aside from

12:53

the obvious what drew you to

12:53

this role, and this sector,

12:57

it's very simple.

12:57

It was the lifestyle that made

13:00

me put my head down. And I said

13:00

that I wanted to move to the buy

13:04

side, it was incredibly hard

13:04

being an investment banking at

13:08

Goldman, it is a fantastic

13:08

training ground, you learn a

13:12

lot, you work with management

13:12

teams, of small to mid sized

13:17

companies, all the way to

13:17

companies that have a market cap

13:21

and the 10s of billions of

13:21

dollars. And you're working with

13:24

some incredibly smart and

13:24

talented people. But yes, it

13:28

really was a decision that I

13:28

made, I think, even today,

13:32

sometimes when my friends and

13:32

family look at my three years,

13:35

so that time period for those

13:35

three years when I was in

13:37

Goldman banking, I'm just

13:37

missing from pictures, I'm just

13:41

not there. And so it was a

13:41

lifestyle decision where I put

13:44

my hand up and I said that look,

13:44

I would like to move to the buy

13:47

side, I will also say by that

13:47

point in time, I had a lot of my

13:51

friends and peers who had moved

13:51

to the buy side. And it wasn't

13:55

that you worked less hours, it

13:55

was more that the hours tended

13:59

to be a bit more predictable.

13:59

And so that gives you some you

14:04

know, sense of control over your

14:04

schedule, I think it was the

14:07

lack of control. That at least

14:07

bothered me. And I felt like I

14:11

was ready for a change. The

14:11

second thing, which is also

14:15

equally important, if not more

14:15

important, was that I did

14:19

conclude that in order for me to

14:19

have more visibility on how I

14:25

would be compensated or

14:25

promoted, I needed to own my own

14:30

p&l. And the clearest way for me

14:30

to do that was to move to the

14:36

buy side where you either make

14:36

money or you don't make money.

14:41

And so that was a very

14:41

deliberate decision that I made.

14:44

And you know, I'm not the sort

14:44

of person who generally thrives

14:47

in ambiguity, and I like to

14:47

control outcomes and fully

14:51

recognizing that you can never

14:51

control outcomes, but I would

14:54

like to influence them as much

14:54

as possible. And so I wanted to

14:57

have p&l associated with my

14:57

name. And which is why I decided

15:01

to also move to the buy side. I

15:01

was very happy with my time at

15:05

Goldman. And so it would be

15:05

obvious for me to at least see

15:08

if there would be another

15:08

opportunity there. And it just

15:11

so happened to be that the

15:11

special situations group at

15:13

Goldman, was looking for someone

15:13

with a corporate finance

15:17

background, who understood how

15:17

commodity markets worked to join

15:21

their alternative energy

15:21

investing business, which was

15:24

basically the business that was

15:24

investing primarily in renewable

15:28

energy assets, as well as clean

15:28

coal and those kinds of energy

15:32

transition projects.

15:34

Yeah, and as you just

15:34

mentioned, you had the

15:37

opportunity to invest in private

15:37

and public companies across the

15:41

energy sector, coal, as you

15:41

said, natural gas power grid

15:44

solar wind, I assume. Can you

15:44

tell us about some of the

15:47

meaningful investments you made

15:47

while at Goldman, you know, one

15:50

that taught you a particular

15:50

tenant of investing, or that was

15:53

just personally very impactful?

15:56

That's an

15:56

interesting question. I guess

15:58

the one deal that's always been

15:58

quite close to my heart was

16:02

actually a business that we

16:02

incubated from scratch at

16:06

Goldman. It was called Vivint.

16:06

Solar. It's a residential solar

16:11

platform. And at that time,

16:11

Goldman and SSG through another

16:16

business, not the alternative

16:16

energy business already had a

16:19

relationship with this company,

16:19

it was called Vivint. And it was

16:22

a home security business where

16:22

this company went door to door

16:27

selling home security systems to

16:27

customers, incredibly talented

16:31

management team and employee

16:31

base. And we had a specific

16:35

thesis around residential solar

16:35

in the US, this is right around

16:39

the 2009 or 10 timeframe. And we

16:39

concluded that this was a market

16:46

that was positioned for a lot of

16:46

growth, the residential solar

16:49

market, especially if you could

16:49

bring clean and green energy to

16:53

us homeowners, where it would

16:53

cost them no money upfront, and

16:57

save them some money on their

16:57

utility bill. And so it was an

17:01

economic value proposition, it

17:01

wasn't just about saving the

17:03

planet and procuring renewable

17:03

energy, but there was a savings

17:07

to be had. But one of the key

17:07

drivers of success for that

17:10

business has to be your customer

17:10

acquisition cost. And so we

17:14

concluded because we already had

17:14

access to this business that had

17:18

very attractive customer

17:18

acquisition costs in the home

17:20

security space, maybe we could

17:20

leverage that into residential

17:24

solar. And so it was almost like

17:24

coming up with a business plan

17:28

from scratch with the management

17:28

team. And it was just incredibly

17:31

fulfilling. And it obviously

17:31

ended up being a very successful

17:34

company. Even today, when I fly

17:34

into Salt Lake City, and I see

17:38

the Vivint arena, it just makes

17:38

me incredibly proud. We

17:43

eventually sold that company to Blackstone.

17:46

Wow. Very, very cool.

17:46

Now, while you are Goldman, you

17:50

rose to senior leadership fairly

17:50

quickly as becoming head of the

17:53

group just eight years into your

17:53

career as an investor. What do

17:57

you think set you apart?

18:01

You know, there were a lot of changes at Goldman. So I joined the special

18:03

situations group in 2005. And

18:08

then we had the financial crisis

18:08

in 2008. And so that was

18:12

incredibly interesting, sitting

18:12

in a balance sheet investing

18:15

business in the middle of a

18:15

financial crisis. I guess, there

18:19

were many moments in time where

18:19

you would wonder about the long

18:22

term viability about the

18:22

renewable sector energy

18:25

transition, the viability of

18:25

balance sheet investing, also

18:29

sitting at a bank that was

18:29

becoming a bank holding company.

18:33

I guess for me, it was more that

18:33

I again, gravitated towards what

18:37

I could influence, which is

18:37

doing deals, and whether those

18:41

deals made money or not. And I

18:41

guess I didn't look up too often

18:44

to be questioning where things

18:44

were headed, let's say three,

18:48

five years down the road. I'm

18:48

not necessarily saying that is

18:51

the advice I would give to

18:51

everyone. Because I do recognize

18:55

that I've been incredibly

18:55

fortunate that the energy

18:58

transition has become so

18:58

mainstream, I know. But I do

19:01

have examples of people who are

19:01

incredibly talented. And God

19:05

pigeonholed focused on niche

19:05

parts of the capital markets.

19:08

And sometimes those things have

19:08

gone sideways as well. So what

19:13

worked for me was that I kept

19:13

focusing on deals and the deals,

19:17

whether they performed or not,

19:17

but that worked well for me.

19:22

Absolutely. Now, as

19:22

you said, in 2019, you joined

19:26

Carlyle as a partner, and sort

19:26

of as head of their renewable

19:31

and sustainable energy fund.

19:31

What drew you to Carlyle after

19:35

spending the bulk of your career

19:35

at Goldman?

19:38

Well, you know,

19:38

Carlyle has a fantastic brand

19:41

name as an investment firm. It

19:41

really is a storied brand name.

19:46

Our founders have a fantastic

19:46

reputation amongst the investor

19:50

community. So I would say that

19:50

coming from Goldman, especially

19:54

as much as I would have liked to

19:54

maybe even start Bucha coil

19:58

Investments, LLC. I tend to look

19:58

at things on a downside

20:02

protected basis. And Carlyle was

20:02

just a fantastic brand name. The

20:06

second was, it was getting a

20:06

little complicated to invest out

20:11

of the bank's balance sheet. And

20:11

ultimately, I was looking for a

20:15

lot more flexibility in terms of

20:15

being able to work with the

20:19

management teams that I was

20:19

partnering with. And an

20:23

investment firm offered that

20:23

flexibility. But really what

20:27

moved the needle for me was that

20:27

Carlyle's vision around the

20:31

energy transition was really

20:31

very much consistent with what I

20:35

thought the market opportunity

20:35

was back in early 2019. And if

20:39

you think back to 2019

20:39

renewables so the energy

20:42

transition was not as mainstream

20:42

as it is today. You know, back

20:47

in 2019, most of Carlyle's peers

20:47

invested in renewables. So the

20:51

energy transition more as a sub

20:51

sector within a broader

20:55

diversified fund, whereas

20:55

Carlyle really took the view

20:58

that like, look, we think that

20:58

this is a multi decade

21:02

opportunity, and it needs a

21:02

dedicated platform to be able to

21:06

really capitalize on that

21:06

opportunity. And that is what I

21:10

thought it was at that point in

21:10

time as well. So having that

21:14

shared vision, really is what

21:14

moved the needle for me. And

21:18

then obviously the benefit of

21:18

the platform itself. The other

21:22

thing is that you come from a

21:22

large company like Goldman

21:26

Sachs, and you're joining on a

21:26

relative basis, a smaller

21:30

investment firm when it comes to

21:30

like number of people, number of

21:34

employees. Sure, I did do my due

21:34

diligence, I did ask people a

21:39

lot about the culture. And this

21:39

has been my experience. Also at

21:43

Carlyle, it's an incredibly

21:43

collaborative culture. And women

21:47

are a significant portion of our

21:47

investment professional

21:51

population at Carlyle, in fact,

21:51

almost 50% of our AUM are

21:55

managed by women. That is an

21:55

outlier. I saw that. And so that

21:59

made a difference as well. Yeah,

21:59

I want to

22:02

backtrack a little

22:02

bit on something that you said

22:05

about switching over to

22:05

something that had more of a

22:08

pure investment mandate, because

22:08

it gave you the opportunity to

22:11

work more closely with

22:11

management teams. As an

22:14

investor, you have the

22:14

opportunity to sit on boards of

22:19

companies that are innovating in

22:19

this space. And I'm curious,

22:24

having had this experience, what

22:24

trends you've become attuned to

22:28

and what you've seen develop in

22:28

the space over the past number

22:31

of years. Yeah,

22:33

I mean, I have to

22:33

say that is the most exciting

22:36

and fulfilling part of my job,

22:36

which is working with these

22:39

management teams with these CEOs

22:39

and founders as they are looking

22:44

to kind of execute on their

22:44

vision for the energy

22:48

transition, that is probably the

22:48

most fulfilling part about my

22:52

job, I really enjoy it. I do

22:52

enjoy even spending time with my

22:56

investors, especially because

22:56

it's a fairly diversified set of

23:00

investors globally. And everyone

23:00

has different challenges that

23:04

they're dealing with. But I

23:04

really do like rolling up my

23:07

sleeves and getting involved

23:07

with the management teams, in

23:10

terms of you know how to execute

23:10

on their business strategy. And

23:14

we are in a very complex

23:14

environment right now,

23:17

specifically around the energy

23:17

transition, you've got complex

23:20

geopolitical factors at play,

23:20

you've got inflationary

23:23

pressures, you've got supply

23:23

chain related issues, but then

23:27

you're also in a sector that's

23:27

positioned for a tremendous

23:30

amount of growth right now. And

23:30

that growth requires a lot of

23:34

capital. And then you are seeing

23:34

interesting capital markets

23:38

right now, both on the equity as

23:38

well as credit side. And so it's

23:43

just incredibly interesting to

23:43

be working with these management

23:46

teams, and are often times find

23:46

that I actually learn a lot from

23:51

these teams as well, when it

23:51

comes to building the right

23:53

organizational structure,

23:53

establishing the right culture

23:56

within your organization,

23:56

recruiting as well as retaining

23:59

talent in a very competitive

23:59

market for talent right now,

24:03

especially around renewables and

24:03

the energy transition. So it's

24:06

just been incredibly fulfilling,

24:06

working with these management

24:09

teams, and the set of issues

24:09

keeps evolving. And so it keeps

24:13

you on your toes. Yeah,

24:16

I want to spend a

24:16

second on that, that this set of

24:19

issues continues evolving. I

24:19

mean, it say consider, take me a

24:23

novice in this sector. What are

24:23

the biggest challenges we're

24:27

facing in this sector today? And

24:27

how is that evolved? I mean,

24:29

I've heard you speak a little

24:29

bit at times about how the 1.0

24:33

evolution of this industry was

24:33

around renewables. What's 2.0?

24:37

What's 3.0? Where are we at today?

24:40

So you know, 1.0 is

24:40

obviously renewables 2.0. You

24:43

are talking about batteries and

24:43

electric vehicles and charging

24:47

infrastructure green hydrogen,

24:47

green ammonia, so you're

24:50

definitely the opportunity set

24:50

is expanding. In terms of the

24:54

complexities in front of us,

24:54

obviously, look, you know,

24:56

you've got to deal with higher

24:56

interest rates, that means your

24:59

cost of capital On Skarner,

24:59

you're dealing with inflationary

25:02

pressures, I would say that

25:02

those kinds of issues are pretty

25:06

much par for the course for any

25:06

illiquid equity strategy right

25:10

now, one could argue even for

25:10

liquid markets. But for energy

25:15

transition, specifically, having

25:15

been an investor in this market

25:18

for over 18 years at this point,

25:18

and I've seen the roller coaster

25:22

around energy transition, there

25:22

have been plenty of ups and

25:25

downs, you know, the thing that

25:25

I always get concerned about are

25:29

momentum investors, so people

25:29

who aggregate bowls of capital,

25:33

or who make investments simply

25:33

because it is mainstream and

25:37

topical, and these are complex

25:37

projects, they're expensive

25:42

projects, they require time,

25:42

they require expertise,

25:45

resources, and a lot of capital.

25:45

So anyone who's in for a quick

25:51

flip, or to be in and out of the

25:51

market, or draws an analogy to

25:55

tech investing, it's simply not

25:55

the same. It is very different.

26:00

And so that is one thing that

26:00

always concerns me a little bit

26:04

about renewables and energy

26:04

transition, which is the noise

26:07

that gets created by momentum

26:07

investors, because to the extent

26:12

there are winners and losers, if

26:12

there are losers, it always

26:15

taints people's experience with

26:15

the sector. And that does a

26:19

disservice not only to

26:19

investors, like myself, but also

26:22

to management teams.

26:25

Yeah, absolutely. And

26:25

I mean, you are obviously the

26:28

antithesis of a momentum

26:28

investor, you dug your heels

26:32

into this space back in 2005,

26:32

pre financial crisis, pre all

26:35

the hype that we see today, what

26:35

gave you conviction back then,

26:41

I wouldn't say I

26:41

had a very high degree of

26:44

conviction for the last 18

26:44

years. I do think there were

26:47

moments in my career where I was

26:47

really questioning my career

26:51

decisions. I think it's what I

26:51

said, which was that, look, as

26:55

long as you're finding deals to

26:55

do, and you have the capital to

26:59

do those deals, keep doing those

26:59

deals. That's my job as an

27:02

investor. First and foremost, it

27:02

is to find deals, do deals and

27:06

generate target returns. If

27:06

you're doing that, the rest will

27:10

follow. And so maybe I should

27:10

have been a little bit more

27:14

proactive about the bigger

27:14

picture. I know everyone talks

27:17

about a three year plan and a

27:17

five year plan. And your I

27:21

didn't focus as much on that.

27:21

But as long as I was finding the

27:25

deals to do and those deals,

27:25

were making money, I was

27:28

generally okay with what I was doing.

27:31

Yeah, well, clearly

27:31

it worked out because today you

27:34

serve as Chief Investment

27:34

Officer for all of Carlyle's

27:36

global infrastructure. In

27:36

addition to being co head of the

27:40

global infrastructure

27:40

Opportunity Fund and head of

27:42

renewable and sustainable

27:42

energy. Can you contextualize

27:45

the broader infrastructure

27:45

division? And what all of these

27:49

roles entail?

27:50

Yeah, so look, you

27:50

know, we've got one integrated

27:53

infrastructure platform at

27:53

Carlyle. And there are really

27:56

five sectors that we focus on,

27:56

we focus on transport, we are

28:00

redeveloping new terminal one at

28:00

JFK Airport. Exciting, it is

28:04

incredibly exciting, it is very

28:04

easy for me to explain to my two

28:09

young daughters exactly what it

28:09

is that I do, every time we fly

28:13

in and out of JFK airport. We

28:13

also invest in digital

28:17

infrastructure. So that includes

28:17

data centers, fiber towers, and

28:22

telecommunications,

28:22

infrastructure, energy,

28:25

midstream infrastructure, so

28:25

that's pipelines, storage

28:29

terminals, tanks, we also have a

28:29

focus on water and utilities. So

28:34

those are your classic

28:34

utilities, water, gas,

28:37

wastewater utilities. And then

28:37

the fifth sector, which is the

28:41

one that we're seeing a lot of

28:41

growth on. And that is kind of

28:44

more correlated with what I've

28:44

done historically, is the energy

28:47

transition space, which includes

28:47

renewables, as well, as you

28:51

know, what I referred to as

28:51

energy transition 2.0.

28:56

end to end, can you

28:56

walk me through what happens

28:59

when a potential opportunity

28:59

comes across your desk? And, and

29:02

specifically, I'm curious, you

29:02

know, every time I talk to

29:05

seasoned investors, there are

29:05

certain individual principles

29:08

that they've developed over the

29:08

years just as a product of

29:10

seeing as many deals as we've

29:10

seen. I'm curious what yours

29:14

are.

29:15

Yeah, so we

29:15

definitely have some very basic

29:19

parameters around cheque size

29:19

target returns, we focus a lot

29:25

on portfolio construction. Is

29:25

this the right deal for where we

29:29

are in our portfolio

29:29

construction as we think about,

29:33

you know, how we build robust

29:33

portfolios that offer the right

29:36

diversification as well as

29:36

return potential for our

29:40

investors. So portfolio

29:40

construction is incredibly

29:42

important to everything that we

29:42

do, and time and resources are

29:46

incredibly precious. So we have

29:46

a limited number of investment

29:50

professionals and we can't be

29:50

chasing every single deal that

29:53

comes our way. So sometimes we

29:53

do have to turn deals down

29:56

because it just might not be the

29:56

right moment in time for what

29:59

well Looking to do within a

29:59

certain portfolio or strategy

30:02

within our platform, at the end

30:02

of the day, when we're looking

30:06

at deals, number one, we care

30:06

about the management team who is

30:11

running the company? What has

30:11

been their track record? In

30:15

terms of running the platform?

30:15

Yes, we can get involved in

30:18

situations where we can make

30:18

changes. But we would like to

30:22

understand the talent and the

30:22

caliber of the management team.

30:24

And hopefully that is a check on

30:24

the list. So a, what is the

30:28

management team look like? Be

30:28

other barriers to entry? Is

30:32

there a moat around the

30:32

business? What is it that the

30:35

company does? Do they develop

30:35

assets? Or do they own and

30:38

operate existing assets, and my

30:38

analysis might be different from

30:42

a private equity investor that

30:42

you're talking to, because I

30:45

tend to focus more on asset

30:45

oriented investments. So I do

30:49

those assets are in the ground

30:49

and already operating, or

30:52

otherwise those assets are going

30:52

to be developed. And so what is

30:55

really the secret sauce around

30:55

what the company does, either

30:59

they have a unique strategy

30:59

around developing those assets,

31:01

or those assets are monopolistic

31:01

in nature, or have high barriers

31:06

to entry in terms of can you

31:06

have competing assets around

31:09

that. And then after that,

31:09

having come from commodity

31:12

markets, we always want to make

31:12

sure that you are competitive

31:16

with the marginal cost producer

31:16

for the commodity market that

31:19

your product is going to be

31:19

active in. So you know, that is

31:22

where we get into discussions

31:22

around government subsidies. In

31:25

general, we do not like to

31:25

underwrite any future government

31:29

subsidies in order to make our

31:29

investments successful.

31:34

super interesting. I

31:34

mean, it's very clear and

31:37

obvious that you're very good at

31:37

what you do. What gets you up in

31:41

the morning and excited to go to

31:41

work every day.

31:44

I really enjoy the

31:44

people that I've worked with, we

31:47

have a good group of people,

31:47

you're at Carlyle, and there is

31:49

a level of care at Carlyle as

31:49

well. So it is incredibly

31:53

collaborative. It's also kind of

31:53

been cool for me, you know, from

31:56

day 120 19, I built my team from

31:56

scratch. And we're a relatively

32:02

new and emerging business. And

32:02

so it's given us an opportunity

32:06

to establish our own culture,

32:06

your and that's been exciting.

32:09

So it's definitely the people, I

32:09

actually prefer coming into the

32:13

office every day, because I just

32:13

want to run into people in the

32:16

hallway and talk to them. It's

32:16

very organic, the interaction,

32:19

so I enjoy the people that I

32:19

work with. But it's really what

32:22

I said that at the end of the

32:22

day, you're working with these

32:24

companies, and helping them

32:24

execute on their vision. And

32:29

that's just super exciting.

32:29

Yeah.

32:33

You know, in that

32:33

same vein, there are a lot of

32:35

people who work in this space

32:35

that feel a lot of existential

32:38

dread around climate and just

32:38

where this industry is broadly

32:42

heading and where the world is

32:42

broadly heading. Do you ever

32:45

grapple with that? I mean, how

32:45

do you deal with that?

32:48

Yeah, I mean, as a

32:48

parent, right, I do think about

32:52

it. I do think about the studies

32:52

that come out. But like I said,

32:57

I tend to gravitate towards

32:57

things that I can focus on an

33:00

influence. And I've been

33:00

fortunate in the sense that I'm

33:04

not just reading about climate

33:04

change, I'm not just reading

33:08

about energy security, I'm

33:08

actually able to make a

33:11

difference. And that's pretty

33:11

neat, because you don't

33:15

generally tend to find careers

33:15

where there is kind of that

33:18

overlap between your personal

33:18

goals, as well as what would be

33:22

a academically lucrative career?

33:25

Absolutely. I mean,

33:25

it's definitely hard to exist at

33:28

the intersection of the two. And

33:28

I think most people are trying

33:30

to find how they can, I want to

33:30

spend a second on the causes of

33:34

some of that drive. And it's,

33:34

you know, for example, I

33:37

remember I studied government in

33:37

college, and we would often talk

33:40

about the concept of race to the

33:40

bottom, whereby a lot of nations

33:44

compete by lowering their

33:44

environmental standards in hopes

33:48

of attracting foreign investment

33:48

and just broader industry. And

33:51

this relates to obviously,

33:51

broader conversations around

33:53

global climate agreements, like

33:53

the Paris Accords, we're

33:56

developing nations who haven't

33:56

necessarily industrialized as

33:59

much as we have, are saying, you

33:59

know, it's not necessarily fair

34:01

that suddenly we have to abide

34:01

by these rules. But the point

34:04

being that global warming is a

34:04

very real thing. And we all need

34:07

to work to mitigate our impact

34:07

on climate change. How do you

34:10

feel as an investor, you help

34:10

accelerate that transition and

34:13

accelerate that Biden?

34:16

You know, it's a question that comes up quite often. And the question also

34:18

comes up in the context of this

34:22

private capital have a role to

34:22

play in infrastructure, or

34:26

generally speaking, the energy

34:26

transition, and I will tell you

34:29

every single day I am reminded

34:29

that private capital has an

34:33

incredibly important role to

34:33

play. It's because these

34:37

companies and management teams

34:37

that we're working with are

34:40

dealing with some complex

34:40

issues. And sometimes they also

34:44

need expertise and resources to

34:44

think through them but also

34:48

capital that has patience and is

34:48

able to withstand volatile

34:53

market conditions. And so

34:53

private capital has an

34:57

incredibly important role to

34:57

play now. I'm also not the sort

35:01

of person who says that you know

35:01

what private capital can only

35:05

play a role in isolation. I

35:05

think there are plenty of

35:09

examples of public private

35:09

partnerships, partnerships, not

35:12

only between private equity

35:12

firms, local governments, but

35:16

also including strategics. And

35:16

that may include oil and gas

35:19

companies as well, you will have

35:19

to show flexibility around

35:24

creating these kinds of

35:24

collaborative ecosystems where

35:27

everyone can come together share

35:27

expertise in order to make these

35:31

projects successful. So, you

35:31

know, I do think private capital

35:35

has a role to play. And that

35:35

role will not just be in OECD

35:38

markets, it can include emerging

35:38

markets as well. The only thing

35:42

I would add to this, and this is

35:42

more of my experience, as

35:45

someone who grew up in India,

35:45

you cannot be prescriptive, and

35:49

you cannot step into complex

35:49

jurisdictions and assume the

35:54

same rules apply, you need to

35:54

show a little bit of

35:57

flexibility, which might also

35:57

include the pool of capital that

36:00

you're deploying out of. But you

36:00

need to be able to adapt and be

36:04

flexible, if you're operating in

36:04

markets where you've not

36:07

historically operated before.

36:07

Yeah,

36:11

I appreciate the deep

36:11

insight. Because, again, I think

36:14

it's a conversation a lot of us

36:14

are having often superficially

36:17

because climate is such a hot

36:17

button conversation right now.

36:21

You've worked at two behemoth, I

36:21

mean, stalwart institutions in

36:25

the financial sector at the

36:25

intersection of energy and

36:28

energy transition. And today, as

36:28

you said, you're building a new

36:33

business for what has been a

36:33

long standing institution, what

36:37

is the most rewarding part of the job?

36:41

I mean, nothing is more rewarding than having a successful investment and a

36:43

successful exit. Yeah, that is

36:48

incredibly rewarding. I do think

36:48

building a business of scale is

36:53

just incredibly important. And

36:53

the reason that is the case is

36:57

because that growth kind of

36:57

permeates through the

37:00

organization. Like I said, I

37:00

built my team from scratch. You

37:04

know, we believe that we have a

37:04

shared mission, you're at

37:07

Carlyle, and just seeing people

37:07

get excited about milestones

37:12

that we're hitting, is just

37:12

incredibly fulfilling, because

37:15

we feel like we're well on our

37:15

way on executing on that

37:19

mission. So just seeing that

37:19

enthusiasm and energy kind of

37:22

permeate through the deal team

37:22

has been incredibly fulfilling.

37:26

Absolutely. And

37:26

obviously, no institution is

37:30

perfect, but private equity over

37:30

the last number of years has

37:34

faced its share of scrutiny as

37:34

even though they've often lean

37:37

vested and oriented towards ESG.

37:37

They're often regarded as

37:40

contributors to the climate

37:40

crisis from a dollars

37:43

perspective. How do you grapple

37:43

with that? And what do you say

37:46

to people that are sort of

37:46

trying to deal with this paradox

37:48

in their minds?

37:50

I mean, look, you

37:50

know, at Carlyle, we have a

37:53

fantastic ESG practice, you

37:53

know, we were the leader in

37:57

terms of the ESG data

37:57

convergence project, one of the

38:00

most important things for us has

38:00

been that you not only need to

38:03

set up ESG reporting metrics,

38:03

those metrics need to be

38:07

standardized as well. And we

38:07

were able to get important LPs,

38:11

as well as other GPS to sign up

38:11

to that ESG data convergence

38:15

project. And that has just been

38:15

something that's made me

38:18

incredibly proud about the

38:18

leading position Carlyle's taken

38:21

amongst candidate investment

38:21

firm peer group. And candidly,

38:25

I'll tell you semi that's been

38:25

an important recruiting tool for

38:28

me as well. People who join my

38:28

team, you know, obviously, they

38:31

are focused on climate change,

38:31

they are focused on the energy

38:33

transition. But they also want

38:33

to be part of Carlyle, because

38:37

we are one of the leaders when

38:37

it comes to thinking through

38:40

these kinds of complex issues.

38:40

Absolutely.

38:44

You've achieved remarkable heights in the financial world. But I also

38:46

imagine that it wasn't easy,

38:50

particularly when you're getting

38:50

started as a woman as a woman of

38:54

color as an immigrant. I mean,

38:54

today, you're a mom, how did you

38:57

surmount those barriers to entry

38:57

and avoid being intimidated, not

39:01

just by the dollars at stake,

39:01

but the cultural environment?

39:05

Maybe that's where

39:05

you say ignorance is bliss. I

39:09

never kind of walked into a room

39:09

and said that, oh, geez, it

39:12

looks like I'm the only woman

39:12

your or I might be a minority

39:17

woman, your I guess, you know, I

39:17

never really thought about that.

39:20

I was too focused on whether I

39:20

knew what I was presenting, or I

39:25

was prepared for a negotiation

39:25

session. And so maybe that has

39:30

helped me a little bit in terms

39:30

of dealing with that. Having

39:33

said that, the most complex

39:33

thing I've done, or I'm still in

39:37

the process of doing is being a

39:37

parent. It is incredibly hard.

39:42

It is incredibly humbling. And

39:42

maybe I can tell you 15 years

39:46

from now, whether it worked out or not,

39:49

I'm sure well,

39:52

so I don't know

39:52

about that. I think that that

39:55

has been the challenging part.

39:55

So of all the things that you

39:57

mentioned in terms of the

39:57

complexities of being Being a

40:00

woman and Indian woman, the one

40:00

thing that I still constantly

40:04

deal with is the fact that

40:04

you've got two kids at home and

40:08

you have to do your job. I mean,

40:08

it is constant triage.

40:11

Yeah, I want to spend

40:11

an extra second on that, because

40:15

as you mentioned, Carlyle very

40:15

uniquely has almost 50% of its

40:20

assets under management, managed

40:20

by women, which is quite

40:24

incredible. I mean, what have

40:24

they done to foster that growth?

40:27

And how personally do you think

40:27

about balancing your roles in

40:31

all these senior positions at

40:31

Carlyle while also being a mom

40:34

at home?

40:35

You know, they're

40:35

incredibly supportive. It is an

40:37

incredibly supportive

40:37

organization. And by being

40:41

supportive, I don't just mean

40:41

they are providing me with

40:45

resources and all but just being

40:45

able to talk to other women at

40:48

Carlyle, who understand that

40:48

you're managing a portfolio,

40:53

you're managing a team. And you

40:53

may be potentially working with

40:57

various stakeholders, including

40:57

investors, it is a complex set

41:01

of issues. So getting that

41:01

guidance and mentorship is

41:05

important. I'm not really

41:05

talking about sponsorship here,

41:08

I'm just talking about practical

41:08

advice that's been incredibly

41:12

useful. So I mean, of course,

41:12

we've got different kinds of

41:16

employee groups that also

41:16

provide support, we've made

41:19

investments in developing our

41:19

talent as well, we provide

41:23

executive coaching to members of

41:23

our team, but it's more of the

41:28

organic interactions that result

41:28

in practical advice that has

41:31

been incredibly useful to me. I

41:31

have said this before, and I

41:35

will say it now, which is that

41:35

look, you know, Carlyle hired me

41:38

as a fund head when I was

41:38

relatively young, with very

41:43

young kids in preschool. And

41:43

they didn't bat an eye. They

41:47

supported me. And that's just

41:47

been quite incredible. So I

41:51

really do believe that Carlyle

41:51

puts its money where its mouth

41:54

is.

41:55

Yeah, well, I love to

41:55

hear that makes me very happy.

41:58

And it's, like I said, the whole

41:58

point of Trailblazers is for us

42:01

to have a line of sight to leaders like you. And it's really incredible to see them

42:03

making strides in this way. But

42:06

also to see you there doing

42:06

that, and making those strides

42:09

for us today is obviously it's a

42:09

challenging time, in that the

42:15

financial system is relatively

42:15

unstable, which has three banks

42:19

have failed, which has a ripple

42:19

effect on the grander part of

42:22

our economy. Being someone

42:22

that's live through 2008 lived

42:26

through a lot of volatility,

42:26

just given the sector and space

42:28

that you're in, what are some

42:28

learnings you can share with

42:31

aspiring young professionals who

42:31

are looking to start their

42:34

careers in the financial sector,

42:37

I just have to say

42:37

it is an incredibly attractive

42:41

learning opportunity right now.

42:41

I mean, think about it, we've

42:45

not had these market conditions,

42:45

really, since the financial

42:49

crisis. And as an investor,

42:49

nothing gets me more interested

42:54

than these kinds of market

42:54

conditions. It's an incredible

42:57

opportunity for people across

42:57

all levels, whether you're

43:00

starting off your career, or you

43:00

are a business leader, it is a

43:04

learning opportunity. I would

43:04

also say that, learn from people

43:08

around you, but also learn from

43:08

what your clients are doing, or

43:13

your peers are doing. And make

43:13

sure that in your interactions

43:17

with everyone around you, you're

43:17

not transactional, and you're

43:20

really thinking strategically,

43:20

because you know, what, if you

43:23

are there for your clients right

43:23

now, and you're able to think

43:27

through various iterations and

43:27

give them good counsel, they

43:30

will be there for you when you

43:30

need them as well. And so you're

43:34

just thinking through

43:34

strategically in terms of your

43:37

relationships, and your

43:37

interactions with people is

43:39

incredibly important, versus

43:39

just focusing on what's

43:42

happening in a particular moment

43:42

in time right now, but it is an

43:46

incredibly important learning

43:46

opportunity right now.

43:51

I love hearing that.

43:51

And it reminds me of a piece of

43:53

advice I received when I first

43:53

started my career in private

43:56

equity. And we were being

43:56

assigned portfolio companies.

43:59

And they said everyone wants the

43:59

portfolio companies that are

44:02

smooth sailing, have no

44:02

problems. But they were like the

44:05

place where you learn the most

44:05

is in the companies that are

44:08

struggling and really going

44:08

through it. And I feel like

44:11

that's exactly what you're

44:11

saying is that there's an

44:13

incredible opportunity to learn

44:13

right now because market

44:16

conditions aren't perfect.

44:17

Yeah. Just make

44:17

sure you don't get pigeonholed

44:20

as the workout posted either.

44:25

I believe that I

44:25

believe it. No, I have to ask

44:28

your seasoned investor who's

44:28

been in this space for as you

44:31

said almost two decades and I

44:31

know you alluded to the idea of

44:36

Pooja Goyal investments, would

44:36

you ever consider starting your

44:39

own fund?

44:40

No, I'm incredibly happy at Carlyle.

44:44

Well, thank you so

44:44

much Pooja for being here. I

44:46

really, really appreciate you

44:46

taking the time to share your

44:48

story. And I personally enjoy it

44:48

because again, I've spent a

44:51

formative part of my life in

44:51

this arena, and it's really

44:54

exciting to see women like

44:54

yourself trailblazing the path

44:57

that you are.

44:58

Well, it's incredibly accurate. waiting to see what you're doing Simi. Your

45:00

content is excellent. And so

45:03

thank you very much for

45:03

including me, but out keep doing

45:06

what you're doing. It's such an

45:06

important avenue for young South

45:10

Asians out there, and even those

45:10

South Asians who are established

45:13

in their career, so keep doing

45:13

what you're doing.

45:16

Absolutely. And I

45:16

can't wait for your daughters to

45:19

listen to this episode and 15

45:19

years and hear what they say.

45:23

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for

45:23

joining us for today's episode.

45:27

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45:30

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