0:04

This is Space Cats Peace Turtles,

0:06

the unofficial podcast for Fantasy Flight's

0:09

Twilight Imperium. Episode 334, Windmaking Roundtable

0:11

with Dana Milte. Music

0:16

by Ben Prunty, featuring Matt

0:19

Martin and Hunter Donaldson. Music

0:30

by Ben Prunty, featuring Matt Martin and Hunter Donaldson. Music

0:39

by Ben Prunty, featuring Matt Martin and Hunter Donaldson. It's

0:44

a busy season, Hunter. It's a busy time of life.

0:46

We're a couple of busy boys. We're on the move.

0:49

We're on the lam. We're running from

0:51

the government. We gotta get you out

0:54

of New York. We're just

0:56

trying to make things happen. And in

0:58

the midst of it, we do have

1:00

prelims happening, which feels like a lot

1:02

at this point, I'm realizing. No, it's

1:04

great. And I think it's

1:07

all perfectly timed.

1:09

We're moving. We're

1:12

grooving. You got a new

1:14

job. We're still doing the

1:17

old job. And it's nice

1:19

because I don't like having time to do

1:21

other stuff. You know what I mean? I

1:23

just like doing this. It's a good season

1:25

of life of just like I

1:27

do this at all times. And then any free

1:29

moment I have, it's like, okay, well, I really

1:31

have to play Sonic 3 before Tuesday. So I

1:33

guess that's also what I'm doing. Yeah, you got

1:35

to play Sonic 3, but you got to play

1:37

Sonic 3 like that. I'll

1:40

say this, I'm getting, I'm blowing you out of the water

1:42

when it comes to homework over here. I'm

1:44

deep in February at this point. What else is

1:46

new? Deep in February. Yeah. Yeah. What else? Well,

1:49

it's different this time. And

1:52

my tone is different. I hope you recognize

1:54

the difference in that tone. I'm no longer

1:56

my tone is not, I'm not the principal

1:58

coming by your office. I'm like,

2:01

hey bud, I'm like holding your hand and be like, we can

2:03

do it, you know what I mean? We're

2:05

on a belly edge of a cliff. Yeah,

2:07

it's not the same tone, okay? I used

2:09

to hit you around the back of the

2:11

head with a ruler, all right? And this

2:14

is not, we're not in that anymore. We're

2:16

at war, man. With

2:18

the audiences, we're at war with

2:21

you. Hunter, I have

2:23

some tournament updates for you. And we actually

2:25

owe everybody for last week, so we have

2:27

a larger update

2:30

for the qualifiers first up because

2:32

we straight up didn't, it was an ARX

2:34

episode last week and we were both in

2:36

ARX mode and we just pretended the TI

2:39

tournament didn't exist for a single week. But

2:41

we have a lot of catching up to

2:43

do. Yeah, horrible. That thing we did that,

2:45

yeah. Horrible thing. But let's talk about all

2:47

of our new prelims players, which is really

2:49

funny now because some of these prelims players

2:51

have already played and lost their prelims. Some

2:53

of these names, I'm

2:55

gonna congratulate them, but they're already out of

2:57

the tournament. Sorry, Matt. I'm not even sure

3:00

it's making sense what you're saying. You're talking about

3:02

new qualifier players. I'm talking about qualifiers that

3:04

have won and now

3:06

have already played their prelims and are out of

3:08

the tournament and are done. Yeah,

3:11

yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. So congratulations

3:14

to Swoopes McGee, Scooney,

3:17

UnminMax, Rottke, Wildwushu,

3:20

Rielke, Max12322,

3:24

Skyforger, Drago

3:26

Faxston, and

3:28

Angry Penguin, Linus the

3:31

Fifth, Jonno, previous

3:33

tournament champion. No, Jonno Ian. One

3:35

and done it too. Jonno came

3:37

in, played one game, won it,

3:40

is in the prelims, congratulations. Also,

3:42

Eat2 and Mantis. And that was

3:45

all your new prelims players, your

3:47

recent qualifiers, congratulations. Wow, Mantis is

3:49

back and we're not gonna let

3:52

it go unremarked. We are gonna

3:54

get Mantis back. Maximum heat on

3:56

him in the prelims, please. That

3:59

would be. Greatly presets but you know

4:01

y'all can Ellison Johnno out attacks what

4:03

you know.dion Johnson too much about John

4:05

right? Like I'll always gonna make the

4:07

finals. but let's let's get some heat

4:09

on mantis. Dunno why in the tournament

4:11

but it was an easy year than

4:14

it is that pose an easy now

4:16

as easy as mine were trying to

4:18

sell his estate slowing it down. Oh

4:20

and another final tournament for that was

4:22

the easier i am easy bow that

4:24

area are absolutely. But also what we

4:26

get to do in this tournament up

4:28

a section is we have prelims. Players

4:30

that are in the semi finals. now

4:32

we have finalists and because we didn't

4:34

do last week, I actually have six

4:36

semifinalists to announce this. Know we're in

4:39

a new If you want to watch

4:41

you tube if he ever watch these

4:43

games yet, don't listen. You don't want

4:45

spoilers. Spoilers oil is a big spoilers

4:47

for like thirty seconds. We've.

4:49

Got. Banner. Spear in

4:51

prelims Game One. Act

4:54

Yeah Benedict in prelims Game

4:56

Number Two New to me,

4:58

but congrats all the say

5:00

I'm in Game Number Three:

5:02

Random Eight, One, Two Seven.

5:05

Deserved. And and concisely we can

5:07

we say if it's okay recover weekend

5:09

wine every single game was some when

5:12

Makey B S like through and through

5:14

everything a hammer we we had this

5:16

this first blush of the turn. it

5:18

was like oh did the Twilight Imperium

5:21

definitely weird to see it like is

5:23

is the new matter almost too dangerous

5:25

for everyone. has to sound always his

5:27

own A dog you go in the

5:30

dark we don't get to see all

5:32

players my is and we meet back

5:34

up and where. We walk in and

5:36

were like what are you all do

5:38

that as we. As. We come

5:41

back together. Y'all kind of stray now

5:43

or I have a yellow you weird

5:45

and the dark brown. I'm angry when

5:47

when you don't have a sister. I

5:49

messed up a for the most recent

5:51

weekend of games and game number four

5:54

was the Mehta. welcome back to the

5:56

semi. There we go And by the

5:58

way, big fan, expand on originality, Congrats

6:00

relations on your freedoms and game number

6:02

Five yeah that was a crazy one.

6:04

And finally in game number six is

6:06

some bake. Oh congratulations to some baker

6:09

know so that six semifinalists we are

6:11

we are our one six of the

6:13

way they are at So Yeah and

6:15

got a whole game we could do

6:17

semifinal Game One yeah I now right

6:19

be do we tell yes sir it

6:22

weakens is silly because it's throw these

6:24

lawyers into a mix with like that

6:26

qualifiers. The prelims, end of the Sami's

6:28

all running at all and hung on

6:30

all at the same time. Worth

6:33

noting to qualifiers. now that we have

6:35

roughly sixty sloths left, we haven't put

6:38

a deadline. Yeah, Hunter, I are talking

6:40

about sort of putting a final dates

6:42

if anything, just to put the fire

6:44

underneath you all to get your games

6:46

in this this last wave. We haven't

6:48

said it officially but I would say

6:50

that is coming, that we're going to

6:53

have a final date and if we

6:55

don't hit the final two sixty number

6:57

by that final dates Hunter and I

6:59

will just make up a way to

7:01

go by to the remaining. Players because

7:03

once we get past a

7:05

certain dates it's like we

7:08

can't keep scheduling prelims without

7:10

having these qualifiers sweat. So

7:12

yeah I'm I will say

7:14

I'll go one step further

7:16

out and save the date

7:18

that we're talking about as

7:20

a possible Ah Idol day.

7:23

Would be March or yes, but I mean

7:25

you got he got the rest of this

7:27

month any all of February. And. Then

7:29

possibly March or through my to say i'd

7:31

the qualifiers or over. Yep, because we just

7:33

don't want to keep adding them run in

7:35

the background and we want to just get

7:37

everything figured out into that our focus fully.

7:40

Are. The prelims. So

7:42

we'll see. Yep, And. Will see. Maybe

7:44

we change our minds on that, but I just want to

7:46

throw it out there just so that y'all know those of

7:49

you there are still trying to qualify. Still try and get

7:51

in the prelims. May. do it now go ahead

7:53

and get it it it role and right yeah you are

7:55

running out of time so you better you but again there and

7:57

we we won't just let it go on forever and ever

7:59

and ever The whole point of this year is we're

8:01

sticking to the schedule. I want the finals

8:03

the first week of May and I'll do anything to

8:06

make it happen. And if you're playing in the prelims

8:08

and you're like, I'm not available any of May, you

8:10

need to lose your game, okay? Because I'm not going

8:12

to be very forgiving on this. It's

8:15

happening. It is happening, y'all. We are going

8:18

to be... The summer is going to start.

8:20

We're going to do the finals and then

8:22

we are going to have a summer. Yeah.

8:24

Me and Matt. Right. Okay. And by that,

8:26

Matt now means apparently I have way others...

8:30

Not only do I have Gen Con as a way

8:32

bigger deal in my schedule, but I got other stuff

8:34

going on in the summer that can't happen. Oh, sorry.

8:36

Sorry. I meant... I said that wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

8:38

I'm having a summer. I haven't had

8:40

one since 2020, okay? So

8:44

I'm having one now. All right. Hey,

8:46

on with the show, Hunter. We had

8:48

a delightful sit down with Dane

8:50

and Milti. We've

8:53

done win making round tables before. We're trying to

8:55

keep doing them and opening them up to other

8:57

people. And this was a fun one with like

9:00

sort of the two people who do the most actual,

9:02

you know, thinking about rules and or

9:04

the design itself in Dane about

9:07

this game and kind of getting their takes on

9:11

what role does win making play in

9:13

all of this? Yeah. It's

9:15

a fun conversation. I think you're going to love it.

9:17

It's very silly and we kind of go all over

9:19

the place, but it's very... I think it's going to

9:21

be really... Y'all are going to learn a lot

9:24

about Dane. And I

9:26

don't think you've ever learned more about Dane than

9:28

you will in this episode. Yeah. And you might

9:30

be surprised at what you learned. You

9:33

were surprisingly cavalier. I've

9:36

just never seen Dane on the show really just

9:38

kind of let least the baddest. Yeah, yeah. So

9:40

it's kind of fun. A fun

9:42

time. Well, let's just dive right into it. Seeing

10:00

how the sausage is made Wait,

10:02

you've been on the show before you've been on a thing. We

10:05

did a rule Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay

10:10

Hit me and milk Better

10:21

idea in the episode Hit

10:24

me and milty against one another and then

10:27

like make it exclusively my own rulings and

10:29

I will still do this Yeah, absolutely We're

10:32

in it now. We're here with you've

10:34

heard his voice. It's Dane Beltrami the

10:36

designer of Twilight appearing fourth edition. Hello.

10:38

Hello How's it going? Fantastic and we're

10:41

here with the designer of Twilight appearing

10:43

fourth edition Dane Beltrami Also

10:45

known as milty. Hello. Hello. How

10:47

are you guys? We've done it We've put

10:50

both of you in the same room on

10:52

a recording. You can put it to rest

10:55

They're perhaps not two people unless Dane hired

10:57

a roommate to pretend to be milty I

11:00

guess we'll never know or Dane can just

11:02

do two voices that aren't even really that

11:04

different from each other I don't know. I

11:07

mean unless you hear us talking at exactly the

11:09

same time Even then there's an element

11:11

of doubt whether or not we're the same person.

11:14

I agree Well

11:17

today we wanted to get together and

11:19

we've done kind of a few episodes

11:21

on this topic throughout history of win-making

11:24

of what to

11:26

do when the game gets weird and People

11:29

start really just like tossing points around

11:31

or doing things for each other It's

11:34

I think the part of

11:36

the game that has evolved the most

11:38

since release People talk

11:40

about the like one of our first tournament

11:42

games that ever had like a win-making Scandal

11:44

and how big of a deal it was

11:46

at the time and now you look

11:48

back at that moment and it's like man We have

11:51

Eight of those At least a year if

11:54

you're looking at this year's prelims. Maybe Every

11:56

single game is just that now. Yeah, we

11:58

already had like one, at least. The

12:00

that would say minimum that was like

12:02

more scandalous than the original Yandle Re

12:04

L. All and air quotes obvious scandals

12:07

in a dumb board game and we

12:09

have ample. But it feels like people

12:11

have heard enough from Hunter and I

12:14

specifically on our thoughts of when making

12:16

and even though those those opinions to

12:18

sort of change over time. but we've

12:21

been trying to bring in more people

12:23

on the topics are you know I

12:25

have so often So today it seems

12:27

fitting to have Dane and Milky talk.

12:30

On especially since you know Dame has more

12:32

control over the stuff than anybody. He's the

12:34

one who can flip some letters in turn

12:37

to things off all yeah this is like

12:39

May we sit here for a month Mary

12:41

there's always that like you know where are

12:43

you it's now. Doesn't really matter what the

12:46

intent of the owners and the I guess

12:48

it's like say it is what it is

12:50

because the around the world nevada my hands

12:52

re certainly I have opinions on that though.

12:55

Well let's blood lead with that specifically then

12:57

and just. Talk about

12:59

support for the throne. As.

13:01

A promissory note and how I

13:04

feel like that is the sort

13:06

of cornerstone of. The. Potential of

13:08

when making this there's a lot of ways

13:10

you can help somebody when but thought the

13:13

clearest car and the one brought up in

13:15

like tournament rules are various other things is

13:17

the like you can just give someone else

13:19

a point in this game and dame that

13:22

was your intent was to let somebody give

13:24

somebody else a point in the game so

13:26

I don't know how how far you can

13:28

go with any sort of disdain for when

13:31

making went when I found a lot of

13:33

it hurts am a lot of I have

13:35

a lot to say not for when making

13:37

the system. But some supper for the

13:39

throne and to me where I feel

13:41

like is that I've. Given.

13:44

You all. A tool

13:46

that nobody is responsible enough to

13:49

use. The ice dass die or

13:51

less basically my seal on it

13:53

and I guess. I

13:56

have almost nothing but regrets

13:58

in a perfect world. I

14:00

don't mind support for the throne a

14:02

given in it's current form A If.

14:05

Is used responsibly? Okay, but you

14:07

know it's just not always or

14:10

ever really. just use that way

14:12

so imply man army though what

14:15

is the I would receive? Oh

14:17

you mean to you I mean

14:19

or it responsibly is to me.

14:22

is. When. You.

14:24

Have to. Prayed. For something

14:26

that is vital. To you

14:29

or you are like. Trying

14:31

to give some collateral to.

14:34

Not. Be eliminated. Or.

14:36

At I'm at a minimum you

14:38

are. Hopefully. Trading for something

14:41

you either treating for your own

14:43

survival or for a point yourself?

14:45

Yeah, it's like like that's that's

14:47

really what it, what it comes

14:49

down to. And of course

14:51

the the assets that I'd still lives. There.

14:55

Is. Well. Some.

14:57

Support the swamps and that's the that's

15:00

the big. The big thing is that

15:02

I just can't stand erase. I don't

15:04

I don't like the idea that once

15:06

to people just decide to swap points

15:08

than any. Okay so just to clarify.

15:10

also like I said it's. Yards

15:13

not responsible enough, but in

15:15

reality it's is absolutely a weakness

15:17

of the design because. You're

15:21

saying you can Just. There's. Really.

15:23

if you have to, people who just want

15:25

to get a leg up on the other

15:27

four players and they don't want to fight,

15:29

they just trade points. Yeah and then safe

15:31

and then you're kind of forests as the

15:33

other players to decide if you wanted do

15:35

that are not right? Have you ever had

15:37

a desire to like? Go back to it

15:39

and this is probably be too much like

15:41

words. Ask me this is my room on

15:43

the card but like in it sounds like

15:45

a near perfect world. You would ban the

15:47

idea of swapping like with the text would

15:50

somehow read out. If this is in your

15:52

play area that. player can't have yours in

15:54

their play area or whatever because are you

15:56

saying from your perspective it's supposed to be

15:58

everyone's biggest fear was support of the throne is

16:00

I have a point but I can't

16:02

touch you and more importantly you have carte blanche to

16:04

mess with my stuff you can just come in and

16:07

at some point I have to decide if it's worth

16:09

it to lose that point to

16:11

retaliate against you that's what you want that

16:13

to feel like yep you

16:16

know around the time of prophecy of kings

16:18

development I considered it

16:20

at that point I wasn't as down on it

16:22

but I didn't I still didn't like it but

16:25

I and ultimately what happened

16:27

is I was never comfortable enough with any of

16:29

the solutions or none of them really resonated with

16:31

me enough at the time to just

16:33

be like all right we're changing it at

16:36

this point I would just almost even just

16:38

remove it straight up like I I just

16:41

don't care for it and it you

16:43

know it I mean obviously TI

16:45

is already a long game so there's that aspect of

16:48

it but at the same time like

16:51

it also shortens the number of game rounds

16:54

usually by one yeah it's a fact that

16:56

it exists and that's that

16:58

sucks to me because I like spending

17:00

time in the game with more

17:03

tech and big fleets it's true

17:05

so yeah yeah when

17:07

it when it ends

17:10

like that this hypothetical

17:12

where it like can't be swapped

17:15

it just makes me think of the disgusting

17:17

meta that would arise where everyone just traded

17:19

in a circle to the left and Ryan

17:22

the game is even less interactive yeah always

17:26

that person and you know you just are

17:28

planet swapping with the person on the other

17:30

side yeah well there was there's one that

17:32

was pitched to me fairly recently

17:35

that was basically like

17:40

rather than the other person can't have

17:42

it it's that yours can't be out

17:44

on the table at all to get

17:46

to get points to get points for any of

17:49

your supports that are out so

17:51

to me that probably means that then

17:54

at that point it's just not used

17:56

really right or

17:58

or it's only used to, you know,

18:02

as a bargaining chip with

18:04

whoever's in last place or

18:06

something like that. I don't know. Yeah.

18:09

Which maybe is fine because of that. Or

18:11

it's only used as a 10 point, like, or

18:13

it's only used as the final point you give

18:16

someone because you want the game to end is

18:18

another option there. Yes, that

18:20

is also the case. But it's hard.

18:22

It's hard finding something that is an

18:26

adequate replacement for that because nothing's

18:28

worth nothing's got that value. And

18:31

the thing about Sportvothrone that is

18:33

nice is that it's value for

18:36

somebody that is also not a

18:38

snowball effect because it's not like, you

18:41

know, sure, I could make some

18:43

card that has a ton of value, right?

18:45

Like 10 trade goods, right? I

18:47

would absolutely spend 10

18:49

trade goods to get a victory point. Right. Right.

18:53

And I think the card that was 10

18:55

trade goods that I could give that was like

18:57

Sportvothrone, that those

19:00

trade goods, that's like a persistent game thing

19:02

that turns into a snowball that turns into

19:04

like, you know, two

19:06

dreadnoughts and some other stuff

19:08

or whatever. And so the point

19:11

on its own just as a as

19:13

a victory point value, it was nice because

19:15

it didn't affect anything else in

19:18

the game. I think

19:20

it has the opposite impact because I

19:22

think, you know, depending on the type of

19:25

player, the most, you know, some of the

19:27

most skilled players will use that drawback of

19:29

the other player not being able to activate

19:31

you without, you know, losing the support to

19:34

their advantage. But Brian is really good at

19:36

this, where he will take an equidistant, if

19:38

not, you know, adjacent to their home system

19:41

before forcing that support swap. So

19:43

then it's, you know, they get the point,

19:45

but they are inherently disadvantaged, even as opposed

19:47

to snowballing. I wish I was smart enough

19:49

to pull off plays like that, to be

19:51

honest. Well,

19:54

so do you feel like if it was

19:56

at this point, you would be

19:58

happier if it just wasn't in the game at

20:00

all or have you ever thought about replacing it

20:02

with something that it is

20:05

functionally very different but kind of maybe has

20:07

the same spirit that doesn't maybe doesn't involve

20:09

points. You were talking about something earlier that

20:11

was like you could give

20:13

it to someone but then they can't play theirs

20:15

or whatever but like is there any room for

20:17

something that functionally

20:19

means I'm supporting another player in their

20:21

victory or is that just

20:23

maybe not compatible with this game? I

20:26

mean functionally I feel like totally like

20:28

there could be but

20:30

it's real hard to figure out what that is. I

20:33

mean there's probably a world where there's like

20:36

a faction specific one but to

20:38

kind of answer your original question I think that

20:41

yeah I would consider an alternate effect entirely

20:44

that's not victory points or simply

20:47

just giving it the X. I

20:50

mean honestly that's kind of what alliances

20:52

almost feel like and it's just a

20:54

turn like it depends on

20:56

the scale of the commander but

20:58

like some of those are like such good

21:00

abilities that it feels like that same kind

21:03

of you know you still have

21:05

alliance swaps but those don't feel as gross

21:07

as a support swap because it's like we

21:09

both unlock powers for each other and like

21:11

it has this like new effects on the

21:13

game that just leads to interesting board states

21:16

and yeah I think you could argue alliances really just

21:18

are the new support for the throne they

21:20

just aren't as concrete as points but some

21:22

of them can feel like it right I

21:25

mean and sometimes they are points sometimes it's

21:27

nomads and the flagship objective is on the board

21:30

and there you go here's the point like my

21:32

alliance gets you a free flagship. I think part

21:34

of the reason why alliances don't

21:36

feel as impactful is that one

21:39

they don't kick

21:41

on immediately which means you

21:43

might not be able to even offer yours for

21:45

a while and two of course it's like you

21:47

said it could be a point but

21:50

it's not always a point so there's this

21:52

huge huge gap and even just between factions

21:54

of like power levels there are some that

21:56

are way better than others and maybe that's

21:58

because the factions an imbalance Oops, or

22:02

maybe that's

22:05

just because their

22:07

power is concentrated on another component.

22:09

Yeah. Well, obviously, winmaking exists

22:11

outside of support for the throne,

22:14

so even removing it from the

22:16

game would not change what

22:18

these players do to it these

22:20

days. You see a

22:22

lot more weirder interactions. So

22:25

can we talk about, I feel like one of the newer meta

22:27

plays has been, and

22:30

maybe, I don't know if we helped

22:32

proliferate this or not, but we certainly

22:34

gave it the name of the Magi's

22:36

Gambit, and just in general, Gambits have

22:38

become a pretty common thing

22:40

in the late game, I

22:43

don't know, especially Async, I feel like. I

22:45

feel like Async is where this really shines,

22:47

because you're talking about games where

22:50

people have really run out of steam, right? Where

22:52

people have really sort of stopped having the drive

22:54

to do crazy plays, so they're like, how about

22:56

we roll a die and we'll just see if

22:58

the game is over or not? And these

23:01

kind of Gambits are basically when, and

23:03

maybe they involve support for the throne,

23:05

sometimes they involve just like handing objectives,

23:07

the easiest example would be like, you

23:09

send a destroyer into my PDS, and

23:12

I roll, and if I get

23:14

my hits, I scored the last point I need

23:16

to win the game, if I don't, I give

23:18

you my support for the throne, for giving me

23:20

the shot to do it, and you win the

23:22

game instead. That's like the cleanest version, but the

23:25

deals can get so much more complicated. How does

23:27

that sit with you, Dane? Yeah, it's

23:29

a little bit grayer, I get it. The

23:31

Gambits don't feel bad to me when

23:33

they don't involve support for the throne

23:35

at all, usually. It's kind of a

23:37

case-by-case basis, but like, it does feel

23:39

kind of bad overall. I

23:42

don't think I have any specific

23:44

problem with the concept of Gambits.

23:47

How about I'll say that. I think

23:49

there are lots of executions of Gambits

23:51

that I think are kind

23:53

of scummy, that I don't care for, and I

23:57

will say most of those do involve support, but not all.

24:00

probably. I feel like that, like

24:02

you said, it's such a common thing on Async and

24:04

I wonder if the fact that

24:06

you're way more often, you know, playing

24:09

with strangers as opposed to, you know,

24:11

a tight-knit group of friends has

24:13

a dramatic impact on how often those happen

24:15

because I feel like it's really easy to

24:18

to throw a gambit and, you know, end the

24:20

game, you know, really early or kind

24:22

of in a, you know,

24:26

unpleasant fashion than it is

24:28

in person. If you're playing with close friends and you

24:30

just like, oh yeah, we all

24:32

spent six hours and I'm just gonna like

24:34

rob this moment from you because I want

24:36

to roll a die for this, right? Well,

24:39

I don't know because I've played Async almost

24:41

exclusively with friends and

24:43

there's been just as many, many, many

24:45

gambits already. It's a thing. Certainly, though,

24:47

I do think the Async aspect

24:53

of it does factor

24:55

in and it could just be people running

24:57

out of steam. It also could just be

25:00

that you're not in an

25:02

immediate direct voice contact and

25:04

so that kind of play feels

25:08

less bad. Yeah. I

25:10

would feel more empowered to do something

25:12

like that in an Async game than

25:15

an in-person game. I think my

25:17

reluctance, I would never do that like

25:20

playing at home with my

25:22

friends, right? Like I would

25:24

never do it. I'd like pitch a gambit to

25:27

like beer and pretzel TI

25:30

players, right? But like,

25:32

you know, I'm playing

25:34

a game with milty

25:37

and spades

25:39

or whatever then yeah sure,

25:41

whatever. All

25:43

these scummy, that's fine. Yeah, they're actually,

25:46

that is a funny aspect of it

25:48

where it's like, because I also mostly

25:50

play Async with like people I've played

25:52

a lot with but it

25:54

is easier to be like, does Coluin or

25:56

Death need another win? No, let's just do

25:58

something stupid. Who cares? Like none of

26:00

us need another one. So let's just let

26:03

the ending be the ending. And maybe that

26:05

is why this stuff has

26:07

increased so much is the audience by

26:11

and large has been around longer,

26:13

right? There was like the huge

26:15

spike with Prophecy of Kings and

26:17

the pandemic arguably for like online

26:19

play in general. And

26:22

a lot of them have stuck around. There's new people

26:24

coming in, but like our tournament, you see a lot

26:26

of people who now have like a couple tournaments under

26:28

their belt. And I wonder if that's a

26:30

factor in why you're seeing so much more of this

26:32

is a lot of people are like, this isn't my,

26:34

you know, this isn't my third game

26:36

of TI or this isn't my only game of

26:38

TI this year. So I'll just kind of like,

26:41

do the more wild harebrained scheme to get out

26:43

of this one. Yeah,

26:46

100%. It is

26:48

kind of funny the way that you

26:50

adjust how you play depending on who you're

26:53

playing with. Yeah. I

26:55

recently played a game at home, like

26:58

in California with friends from high

27:01

school and very

27:03

like super casual game and nobody

27:06

knows any kind of meta or anything like

27:08

that. Like all super smart people, but like,

27:11

you know, this game takes a while to

27:13

really understand the nitty gritty

27:15

of and nobody bought gravity drive. And

27:17

it was awesome because then I didn't

27:20

feel like I had to buy gravity

27:22

drive. So we just had a completely

27:24

gravity driveless game, no gravity drive, no

27:26

support swaps. We were just like, like,

27:29

having a good time. It's kind of

27:31

adorable. Here was a little bit

27:34

of pre-order. I thought this was

27:36

a good question. Phil

27:38

Sage asked or said, I would

27:41

never decline a win make. Obviously

27:43

I want to win in quotes,

27:45

for real, end quotes, but I'll

27:47

take fake winning over losing. And

27:49

I think this is a big

27:52

part of like, I talk a

27:54

lot about how I don't feel like I've deserved a win or

27:56

whatever, you know, I'll have won a game and then after the

27:58

fact, I'll be like, yeah, but I didn't. really win

28:00

and it's a lot of times because of this

28:02

win making stuff. No! What you're

28:04

talking about is very different than what

28:06

this guy is talking about. It's really

28:08

not. At least in my mind I

28:10

see win making shenanigans and maybe my

28:12

barometer is set lower so I'm like

28:14

I call it win making before other

28:16

people do but I want to go

28:19

around the table here and see what

28:21

everybody's take on this is. Milti, do

28:23

you accept the win make? I

28:25

think I tend to avoid gambits. Kind of

28:27

spades will disagree because I think I did

28:29

it one time in the game. No,

28:32

I think there's a quote that I

28:34

think is from Reiner Kizya that is

28:37

kind of my approach to

28:39

win making in general. When

28:41

playing a game the goal is to win but

28:44

it is the goal that is important not the

28:46

winning. I

28:48

think having played so many games of

28:50

TI you don't care whether you win

28:53

or lose that much as long as

28:55

you had a fun competitive game. It

28:59

bothers me much more when I finish a

29:01

game at five points where I

29:03

had no chance than when I finish a

29:05

game at nine and lose to anything because

29:07

I at least want to be competitive in

29:09

the course of the game. I

29:11

will turn down a win make if I feel like

29:13

someone else has this locked up I don't just want

29:16

to take a support because they outplayed me.

29:18

That's a really good quote. I

29:20

agree with all of that sentiment including

29:23

the goal being the act of

29:25

trying to win is way

29:28

more important to me than winning

29:31

in general. I would disagree however I

29:34

think that Milti is just not really ever

29:36

in the position to have to turn

29:39

down a win make because he doesn't make any friends.

29:44

He just turns himself into the worst

29:47

person to play against ever. I

29:50

tend to be such a wild card for

29:52

games with a lot of people that are

29:54

really used to the meta and whatever I

29:56

don't know why I'll jump into an Async

29:58

game and just nobody mentions support. swaps until

30:00

like round five and it's way too late

30:03

or I'll throw out my support for something

30:05

really unusual. Like I think I did it

30:07

in a tournament game as Winew and

30:09

I gave it out round one for a

30:12

warfare pop and it was

30:14

just like it kind of broke the rest of

30:16

the tables idea of how to handle stuff. And

30:19

I think that's if you don't

30:21

like the support swap meta that you kind

30:23

of have to play into that where you're

30:25

like I'm gonna trade this to score you

30:27

know my extra point on Imperial or something

30:29

that I wouldn't have otherwise because otherwise you

30:32

are setting yourself back in the

30:34

tempo and you are going to lose

30:36

and if that's what you're trying to avoid

30:38

but you don't like the support swap meta then

30:41

yeah you just have to really it danes

30:43

you know be irresponsible with

30:45

it and not do a support swap and

30:47

do something that kind of puts

30:49

a target on someone else because they'll have

30:51

to right and you know you get the

30:54

equivalent value out of it. The

30:59

absolute worst thing ever is doing

31:01

well scoring well

31:05

getting ahead by even one point and

31:07

then it being round three and no one

31:09

has swapped any supports yet because

31:12

then you're not gonna get a support from

31:14

anybody. Everybody else might swap and then it's

31:16

like well what was even the point of

31:18

doing well right? Like what was the point

31:21

of making that extra effort to get the

31:23

one point because now you don't get the free

31:25

point because it didn't happen or

31:28

whatever but like that's a position that I put

31:30

myself in multiple times because I don't

31:32

like to be the one to start the support

31:34

swapping because I know once I do then it just

31:37

goes on forever and I like to trick

31:39

myself into thinking that maybe this time

31:42

no one will trade supports and

31:44

it doesn't happen but you

31:46

know on the rare occasion that I do get a

31:48

bit ahead like I'm not gonna get a support from

31:50

anybody. Yeah, there's a

31:53

quote that I think is attributed to Deaf

31:55

Piper at this point. I don't recall exactly

31:57

who but it's just the idea that in

31:59

Twilight. item perium you have to be given

32:01

permission to win and I've seen this have

32:03

a lot more prevalence in like the last

32:06

year or so where you know the

32:08

endgame is like kind of a pretty

32:11

random smattering of events there's a lot

32:13

of thematics going on that lead to

32:15

weird outcomes and it's sort

32:17

of an acceptance that anything can happen

32:19

and almost to your point milty it's like getting

32:21

to eight or nine is the

32:24

goal of any game and finding

32:26

that way to ten is because

32:28

you know the shenanigans even if

32:31

they're not win making shenanigans but just

32:33

the shenanigans ensued but I wonder how

32:36

you all feel about that idea of like

32:38

you must be given permission and I mean

32:40

obviously win making is just taking that to

32:42

an extreme. Generally that is

32:44

absolutely the case in Twilight Imperium I think

32:46

there is the rare game where it is

32:49

just someone has locked this up and

32:51

like whether no one can reach their home

32:53

system or no matter

32:56

what you do you know they're gonna

32:58

score like become a martyr or

33:00

something else to win it like they have

33:02

it locked up it does happen

33:04

but it's very rare but that's sort of what

33:07

you strive for as a player is to be

33:09

like nobody could stop me in

33:11

any way I had this game. Yeah I don't

33:13

know if I I don't know

33:15

if I agree with the quote exactly

33:17

but it is definitely true a lot of

33:19

the time that you don't win TI

33:22

without permission. Any

33:24

game where there's like a kind of

33:26

like an endless what's it the wind

33:28

sleigh carousel or whatever the endless endless

33:30

roundtable of murdering whoever is

33:32

up up top that doesn't really feel like

33:35

permission to me so much as you

33:37

know the winner is whoever runs out of steam

33:40

but I also know that a

33:42

lot of people there are a lot of people who actually don't like

33:46

participating in the wind sleigh carousel

33:48

but it is one of my favorite things to

33:50

do. Me too. I

33:53

actually I'm less bummed out by a support

33:55

swap meta than I am by people just

33:57

refusing to win sleigh at the end of

33:59

the game. I'm that's what we're

34:01

trying to get to and

34:04

one one thing that comes up a lot

34:06

when when in that situation is Those

34:09

people who refuse to participate saying that

34:11

they don't want to win make and

34:13

to me that's not that's not it

34:15

at all Mm-hmm. Yeah, all right That

34:17

that is actually if you take away support of

34:19

the throne take away any other thing that bothers

34:21

me in the game one

34:24

of my least maybe my

34:26

least favorite thing that happens in in

34:28

in the meta sometimes is when you

34:30

get to a point where you have

34:32

player a B and C and A

34:36

and B are going to win before

34:38

C can and C

34:42

player C then decides that they

34:45

don't want to do

34:47

anything that could get in the way of Deciding

34:52

players a and B and

34:57

Well one I think that's

34:59

just wrong By default and

35:01

I'll get to that a second. But two I think a

35:03

lot of times people will Say

35:05

that and let's say that they have no

35:07

chance and then not realize that they actually

35:10

may have a little chance Right, you've maybe

35:12

judged actually your own. Yeah, or or rather

35:14

like yeah Maybe you don't have a chance

35:16

with what you're doing But like you don't

35:18

know what player B is gonna do like,

35:20

yeah, they could be so dialed in on

35:23

Something that they completely move all their units

35:25

out of a system that you thought was

35:28

gonna be unreachable or whatever and

35:30

and so like my opinion on that of

35:32

course is that Even

35:34

if I'm going to lose and

35:37

I think as a hundred percent shot. I

35:39

will just continue playing as

35:42

if The game

35:44

was actually going to 12 points or whatever

35:46

like as if I'm as I will be

35:48

trying to score points and if that means

35:51

That like maybe I never get to score the points because the

35:54

game ends, but if that means getting into

35:56

somebody else's business Who

35:58

otherwise would have? One the

36:00

game if I wasn't there that's fine and

36:02

that goes back to us and we for

36:04

about the the concept that being fought as

36:07

like I don't like it when people say

36:09

that that they're going to let the other

36:11

to duke it out is because the entire

36:13

rest of the game both players have had

36:15

pressure from you. Yes and to remove that

36:17

pressure you are. Choosing. The

36:20

winner. Based. Off of More. Basically

36:22

you're basically giving up power to initiative rates. Yeah,

36:24

same I was. That's what I was guessing. That's

36:26

the worst Part of all of it is what

36:28

you're all you're doing is giving it. Power.

36:30

To like one of the stranger components

36:32

of the game which is displayed: Speaker

36:34

order and initiative Order Like that. Really?

36:36

that's an order to decide this on

36:39

the I like. like like that supposed

36:41

to be the Holy Grail and as

36:43

of strategic options. Yeah, it's like this

36:45

is one cog in the game and

36:47

it it is obviously really important, but

36:49

it shouldn't have that importance. To.

36:53

In that regard, player in the In:

36:55

when you're choosing whether or not you're

36:57

being a functional blocking player in the

36:59

game. And

37:01

that isn't to say that like. There.

37:03

Are situations where there are

37:05

two other players. Who.

37:09

Are. Gonna win And I could win Say

37:11

either of them I don't. Just when

37:13

slave someone who's ahead of me when

37:15

there's two options rates my I will

37:17

absolutely. Continue trying to score points

37:19

and of that means. Net

37:21

net. Naturally, picking one of those two to win

37:24

than that's probably going to hide. Miss your plane

37:26

with me? Yeah, Yeah. Can we?

37:28

Can we define that when slaying carousel? And

37:30

because I do think it's worth talking about

37:32

that in this whole conversation and and then

37:34

also talking about how it breaks down but

37:36

can pin on an one hundred? Can you

37:38

to define though when slaying carousel. Yeah.

37:41

So the ones like airflow or the mere

37:43

sustain of when flying is just the idea

37:45

that. Each. Player

37:47

in initiative order.

37:50

Nice display. Their neighbor.

37:53

so it would start with whoever as

37:56

speaker right their neighbor needs to slay

37:58

them and them the neighbor that person

38:00

needs to slay that person and around

38:02

we go until everyone has been slayed.

38:04

Presumably in a perfect mantis chain of

38:06

wind slay the players would never

38:08

stop playing until the final stage two was

38:10

revealed. They would just continue to...it's like a

38:13

thought experiment where these players continue to prevent

38:15

each other from doing anything meaningful at the

38:17

end of the game but it's like a

38:19

goal, right? We're trying to reach that level

38:22

of mantis chain of wind slay. I'll say

38:24

in a lot of games I play in,

38:26

you're lucky if you get too deep, you

38:28

know? And all I ever want is to

38:31

see it go all the way around. I

38:33

don't even care where I'm at on that

38:35

because a lot of times I end up

38:37

playing speaker control and I would be one

38:40

of the first ones slayed but I just want

38:42

to see it go around more and more. I

38:45

will say having played enough games with mantis, I feel

38:47

like that's all a trap to help them win. Because

38:50

I've played multiple games where mantis' goal

38:52

in the final round was to lose

38:54

combats to win the game. Yeah,

39:00

so we all say stuff and some of

39:02

the stuff we say is part of a

39:04

game and you're right mantis may have said

39:06

that and it might be part of his

39:08

game but I think we could still take

39:10

that nugget and use it for good purposes

39:12

even if it is actually propaganda. And

39:15

my favorite games especially

39:17

to stream and you've

39:19

seen this like I think in this last year's championship

39:22

even is the carousel is

39:25

working but I

39:27

love the deals that happen within

39:29

the carousel because the chain

39:33

of command is out of order. And

39:35

by that I mean, well the player

39:37

to my left actually can't stop me

39:39

but the player to their left can.

39:42

And so now we're going to trade

39:44

like who's responsible for who and the

39:46

deal making becomes like we are the

39:48

goal is still to maintain the carousel

39:50

but the jobs have just started

39:53

to get mixed up and

39:55

then of course essentially the job of

39:57

the carousel is to let the dice decide.

40:00

end, right? It's, okay, everybody has these

40:02

tasks and where this will break

40:04

is when someone's combat went, you know, horribly

40:06

wrong and we didn't expect that and then

40:08

it's just like, oops, now there's nothing left

40:10

to do. The dice got to decide the

40:12

game finally. And I think that principle like

40:14

does make sense to a lot of people.

40:16

I do think people like try to

40:18

make good on that, but it's like also like what

40:20

Dane is talking about makes a lot of sense, which

40:22

is that at the end of the game, you

40:25

want to continue doing stuff

40:27

that's good for you regardless

40:29

of what you think

40:31

you know about the for sure outcome

40:33

of this game or whatever. And that

40:35

also makes sense. So I just think

40:37

like as long as people are making motivated moves

40:39

at the end of the game, it should all

40:41

be gravy, you know? Yeah, sometimes people don't, they

40:44

just stop. Yeah, I think one of the old

40:46

topics we used to have a lot in

40:48

this discussion and it's not

40:51

explicitly win making, but there was always,

40:53

you know, you get those games where,

40:56

hey, you have to help us stop so and

40:58

so or else they'll win. So you have to

41:00

do it for free. And I

41:02

still hold to the thinking of if

41:04

the table needs you to do something

41:06

to a certain extent, you should

41:08

be paid or that like it has to

41:11

have a benefit to me outside of just

41:13

the sheer logic of prolonging the game. I

41:16

want to be paid for my actions

41:18

and other people need to have a

41:20

cost incurred to them

41:22

for me to do the thing

41:24

that helps everyone. That is

41:26

a good point. It's kind of a complicated

41:28

other aspect of this is that sometimes people

41:30

will act like at the end of the

41:32

game that we're all

41:35

on a team and I get to

41:37

use your abilities to play the person

41:39

when actually it's like, I mean, we

41:41

all have to do what we're doing

41:44

for our game. And that might not be, you

41:46

know, in accordance with what the second

41:48

player to win wants everyone to do

41:50

right now. So I don't know. Yeah,

41:52

it is complicated. I think that like

41:55

you saw our old hand of action

41:57

cards immediately becoming the table's hand of

41:59

action cards. Exactly. Classic

42:01

example, especially in the base game

42:03

where they'll prolong it by

42:05

a round, but now Y'sarel has nothing

42:08

going for them in the next round

42:10

because they've burned a dozen action cards

42:12

for the table and they

42:14

have nothing left in the

42:16

tank to actually win. So it

42:18

really just prolongs the game for the

42:20

rest of the players and they

42:23

absolutely need some compensation where it's like, you

42:25

need this action card? Well, I

42:27

need to get something from you in exchange. Right.

42:31

And oftentimes, those things I think

42:33

are even something like commentators can

42:35

misjudge. And I think sometimes we see those things

42:37

and almost feel like they are gambits. I think

42:39

there's certain versions of this stuff where it's like,

42:41

you have to give me something, but it needs to

42:44

be a lot because what I'm doing is a lot

42:46

to me, right? So sometimes people are like, I need

42:48

something that's equivalent to a point. Like you need to

42:50

help me score my secret. And yes, it's going

42:52

to give me a better shot to 10. I

42:55

feel like I've run into in recent games is

42:58

like me trying to get

43:00

stuff to happen, to do some wind slaying

43:02

and I'm trying to get paid. And it's

43:05

like, yes, I do. I like also recognize

43:07

that this gives me a path

43:10

to victory. We're all trying to maintain

43:12

paths to victory. I hate it when

43:14

me trying

43:16

to be a part of the team and

43:18

a part of the carousel is suddenly deemed

43:20

as like, yes, but it's unacceptable for you

43:22

to have a pass to 10. We must

43:24

remove your chance of scoring anything or else.

43:27

I feel like that's what I see to

43:29

sugar do extremely well in games that the

43:31

sugar plays is like, I'm going to make

43:33

sure you're still getting yours. I'm going to make sure you have your pass to

43:35

10. We all want our pass to 10. That's

43:37

the thing that must be maintained. Everything

43:40

else is like the resources we get to move

43:42

around to try to make that happen. But I'm

43:44

not going to take away anyone's

43:46

pass to 10 until like the moment it

43:48

matters the most. I'm

43:51

wondering if like the classic question

43:53

on an episode like this is what

43:55

do we specifically define

43:57

as win-making? This

44:00

is the age-old one, but I'm curious because we've

44:02

got Dane and milty here So I want to

44:04

know like how wide is y'all's

44:07

window for what constitute? When

44:10

making is it playing the game at all is

44:13

sitting down? Is the selecting

44:15

a faction when making like or is

44:17

it is it just those like weird

44:19

things in round five or whatever? I

44:23

probably wouldn't call it explicit

44:25

when making but my windows pretty

44:27

wide and and

44:29

when it comes down to it if

44:32

it's round one or round two

44:34

and You're

44:36

being friendly and you give away a

44:38

point to your neighbor because it's cool

44:41

Everybody's at one that you're

44:43

just as culpable as the person who gave

44:45

away the the support for the throne at

44:48

the end I'm not saying

44:50

that I don't do that like don't get me

44:52

wrong like it's way more chill to play a

44:54

game of TI when You

44:56

know the first couple rounds are a

44:58

little friendly and you're not like posed

45:00

for the whole game, right? Like I

45:02

get that I'm not necessarily saying that

45:04

that's bad. All I'm saying is That

45:07

it is win-making And

45:10

and and if you if you do

45:13

that and then you also complain later

45:15

when you get Slayed

45:17

or whatever like then

45:20

well guess you shouldn't have done

45:22

that thing that would have literally cost you nothing

45:24

to not do and

45:28

Yeah, it doesn't make me mad because I mean

45:30

I I'm just not that invested in The

45:33

final outcome like like my day

45:35

isn't gonna be ruined if I lose game. So like

45:39

I'm more about wanting to You

45:43

know do my best and pull off

45:45

whatever meme shenanigans that I can right?

45:47

Mm-hmm. Yeah, if I could just start

45:49

a game of

45:51

TI in like round five After

45:54

we've already we've already determined who's

45:56

about to win and

45:59

we're just planning in, planning

46:01

an epic multiplayer winslay or

46:03

whatever. That's like my favorite part

46:05

of the game. I feel the

46:07

same way about the last part being

46:10

the best part, but I feel like

46:12

that's the reason it is that way

46:14

is because we've all decided that it's

46:16

a cooperative game until it's not. There

46:18

would be more drama in

46:20

the early rounds if we didn't all

46:23

kind of... And I mean, it's really... The

46:25

game works this way, right? Like it's not...

46:28

It's not making it up, but it's also like it

46:30

is a cultural thing where if we

46:32

all just decided like we didn't like

46:34

playing the game this way, then yeah,

46:36

it would come to blows earlier than

46:39

it does in the way we

46:41

play it now. I'm very curious with

46:44

the eventual BGA release. I'm very

46:46

curious if the tone

46:49

there is going to be different because

46:51

I feel like there is a high

46:53

chance that that's going to turn

46:56

into like a way more aggressive

46:58

meta, but maybe that's just me

47:01

just saying words.

47:04

What makes you think that? I'm curious. I'm curious what makes

47:06

you kind of go there. I guess

47:08

just the way that it's going to be like...

47:11

I mean, aren't most BGA games... I

47:14

don't know this for sure, but aren't most BGA

47:16

games like ranked in some way? Like don't you

47:18

have like ratings and stuff like that? It's

47:20

always a score that it's like a little league

47:22

in every single thing that you do. You

47:25

are keeping score. Yeah, I don't know. If that is

47:27

the case, I can understand that, right? That's sort of

47:29

the thing behind the... There's

47:32

a global league that just like has

47:34

games you can win and score points

47:36

and those get described as like really

47:38

cut throat mean games and

47:40

are not the kind of TI I want to play. I

47:42

know that one. It'll be asynchronous, but

47:45

it'll be asynchronous without all the like

47:48

chat functionality of Discord. There

47:50

will be chat functionality, I think. I mean,

47:53

I think there has to be. Yeah, I guess it

47:55

isn't another thing like... Do

47:57

they have matching? I literally have no idea. Like

48:00

I yeah, I don't like did it

48:02

match you with yeah, so like it

48:05

just playing with random players in a matching system itself

48:08

is enough to me, but I

48:11

I'm really curious to see like How

48:14

many games where you're playing with

48:16

matched players like reach the end?

48:18

Yeah, like like are people

48:21

gonna like kind of bad

48:23

attitude it and like oh they're

48:25

losing losing and they're losing its

48:28

async so it's already gonna be really slow and They

48:32

don't know any of these people so I'm

48:34

gonna just yeah stop playing

48:36

like I'm really curious Yeah, there is

48:38

that weird aspect of this game that

48:40

just inherently leads to like

48:42

just bad things can happen There

48:44

can be bad vibes in in

48:46

games of TI and and

48:49

maybe sometimes winmaking is us relieving

48:53

ourselves of It

48:55

getting worse in the bad game. Oh, yeah

48:58

I've definitely been there before where it was

49:00

like this win make is not

49:03

about making it more toxic Actually, we're

49:05

making it less toxic And

49:08

I don't want to go into specifics. I we all know

49:10

we all know Yeah,

49:13

I think like you said that you know at

49:15

some point playing the game itself is Shades

49:18

of Grey of win making right if you're

49:20

at you know Someone's at nine points

49:22

and you give them your support you're

49:24

putting your chances of winning to zero So,

49:26

you know, right the strictest sense of

49:28

win making but the second that someone

49:31

proposes a support swap and you just kind

49:33

of accept that as if it's equal value

49:35

and you know Maybe they're

49:37

scoring before you an initiative Maybe they

49:39

have another pathway already set up like

49:42

or you know You support swap with

49:44

the custodians like player and

49:46

they already have another path because then they

49:48

don't need a stage two Like it's never

49:50

an equal trade in that sense with a

49:52

support swap when you just look at right

49:54

point for point because it's You know,

49:57

there's you know different objectives on the game board

49:59

where it's like like, well, now I

50:01

can't activate any of their three empties. Like this

50:03

wasn't an equal trade at all. So

50:06

to some extent, yeah, like they said, you're

50:09

just as culpable for giving that point

50:11

away early as

50:13

you are forgiving that support swap towards

50:15

the end. And the funniest situation is

50:17

always a con trading away all their

50:19

planets and then just sitting

50:21

in their home system in the last round where it's

50:23

like, yeah, like you helped everybody

50:26

score, but you went

50:28

way overboard and you've taken yourself out

50:30

of the running by being so generous.

50:32

Yeah, at what cost. Yeah,

50:34

and I definitely used to have that same kind of

50:36

thinking. And I don't think I'm like wildly far away

50:38

from it, but the idea that like too

50:41

much boat floating early is

50:43

just like, well, you've made

50:45

the bed, you know, and now you have to

50:47

sleep in it. Especially I've had

50:49

two recent async games where just

50:52

like Winu has not even been touched and

50:54

we're just like totally chill with Winu getting

50:56

away with one kind of the whole game.

51:00

okay, I guess, Milti, you're in this one and

51:03

it's your friend that's Winu and we're all just

51:05

sitting here watching Winu do great and I'm waiting

51:07

for the shoe to drop basically. And

51:09

I don't know how to feel about it at

51:11

this point, but I keep having these games

51:13

where, and I think it's especially common in

51:15

async and I'm absolutely not saying I don't

51:18

do it too because there's a certain laziness

51:20

that comes with async which is

51:22

like, you know, we could make

51:24

all of this really complicated or we

51:27

could, you know, kind of get through around too quickly and

51:29

like just make the boats float as much as

51:32

possible. So I don't know. I

51:34

definitely have been a part of all sides

51:37

of the coin on this one and

51:39

I don't know where I fall anymore. So I have

51:41

a question for you guys. I'm sure that there aren't

51:43

statistics for this or if they are, they take time

51:45

to get, but what would you guess if

51:48

you look at every winning game and

51:51

the point breakdown of players who

51:53

have won? So they are the player who had 10 or

51:56

12 or whatever. About

51:58

what percentage of games. Do

52:01

those winners have at least one point from

52:03

support? Ooh, that's a great question. It's gotta

52:05

be like 75% Right.

52:07

The class. I got my mind. Yeah.

52:10

Yeah is your support and your you

52:12

know, three secrets and One

52:15

bonus point and your five stage one

52:17

objectives, right? And if you're not

52:19

getting five stage one objectives, you're getting a stage two,

52:22

but that support is always built

52:24

in. Yeah Like

52:26

and then the only way around it is some

52:29

extra point whether that's you know I

52:32

just like custodians are Imperial or like

52:34

a relic, right? And

52:37

then how often do you see somebody

52:39

like who's already at nine points score

52:41

a stage two? Yeah,

52:44

that one might be more common

52:47

Then then like not not more common than support

52:49

for the throne But like I I

52:52

do think the player get that gets to quote

52:54

unquote 11 in a 10-point game As

52:57

a as a mode of winning is maybe not wildly

53:00

uncommon I'm trying to pull up like the

53:02

last year's tournament data because I do know

53:04

we don't have support for the throne track

53:06

But we definitely have like in which a

53:09

stage two was scored and in which a

53:11

stage two was not scored and within that

53:13

I write I recall an interesting piece of

53:15

data being the number of

53:17

games where It's without

53:20

a stage two But it's also without

53:22

custodians and to me that that must

53:25

stream support and some other bonus point came

53:27

up Right, but the I feel like that

53:29

like to me assumes support for the throne

53:31

is involved Yeah, that situation is almost like

53:34

double support somehow, right? But you see this

53:36

occasionally where it's like how did this player

53:38

end up with two supports in round two?

53:41

like there's just no ability to

53:43

stop that tempo when they can close out

53:45

in round four and other

53:48

players are so far behind on Technology

53:50

or something that they don't even have

53:52

the ability to inslay that player it's

53:55

funny how support for the throne is

53:58

Like I agree that it like kind of That sucks.

54:01

But then if I hear that somebody has two of them, I'm like,

54:03

that rules. What is that? How

54:05

does that make sense? I'm

54:07

like, support for the throne, blame. But oh,

54:10

they won and they had two support for

54:12

the throne? That's really cool. Well, it does

54:14

go back to Dane's, you know, that means

54:16

one of those was absolutely earned the right

54:19

way. One of those was for real.

54:21

So the real way you get a support for them.

54:23

I mean, yeah, that goes to exactly Dane's point of

54:25

they did it the respectable way and you did something

54:27

where you extorted them or they had to give it

54:30

up. You knew it wasn't in return for

54:33

another support. And yeah, those just feel better.

54:35

It's cooler to get a support for the

54:37

throne for not a support for the throne.

54:40

Agreed. Though, to be fair, it

54:42

could have just been the opposite, the worst way

54:44

to get a support for the throne, which is

54:46

just out of spite or

54:48

rage. Sure. Where it's just like,

54:50

yeah, that's true. I want the game to end, take this. Like

54:53

that. That's also not great. It

54:56

is kind of funny, a little side tangent. I

54:59

just realized I was like talking about that game

55:01

I played at home where it was like no

55:03

gravity drive, no support for the throne. I was

55:05

kind of like making it sound like I was

55:08

being like really great

55:10

and casual and having a good

55:12

time with my friends. But I

55:14

absolutely played Nazaroka and just farmed

55:16

like 16 relics in my slice.

55:18

And then during the last round,

55:20

just spammed a forge until I

55:22

hit a shard

55:24

at the end. That's the real beauty. I

55:30

look forward to some day. It's been so long

55:32

since I feel like I've played a game with like five

55:34

completely new players. And

55:37

I need to relive that freedom of like, I

55:39

don't need to do anything in this. I can

55:41

do, yeah, what lottery do I want to play?

55:44

What completely stupid like made up strategy do I

55:46

want to go for today? I

55:49

would love to have one of those soon.

55:51

Oh, I just played a game like that. And

55:54

it was so funny because it was

55:56

a bunch of players that are not exposed to the

55:58

online meta and are relatively. relatively new, not

56:01

completely. But every time something

56:03

would come up where they were like popping

56:05

trade, I was just like, I'd clam up.

56:07

I was like, I don't want to corrupt

56:09

this pristine landscape with the online meta. Yeah.

56:15

Oh, I absolutely taught my friends X

56:17

minus one immediately. Oh, yeah. There is

56:19

no delay. That's allowed, right? Because it's

56:21

just like, I don't need to sit

56:23

here and listen to you all bicker

56:25

about these stupid trade goods. It doesn't

56:27

matter. Just make your money. They

56:29

were kind of like paralyzed, not sure what to do.

56:31

Yeah. Well, they never trust you, right?

56:33

A new player never trusts you when you say,

56:36

I promise that X minus one is like a

56:38

pretty decent deal. It's like a fair shake. I

56:40

was dating someone that I tried to teach X

56:42

minus one to and she didn't trust me. And

56:45

then it didn't work out. I

56:47

just remember thinking like, is that a true

56:49

story? Is that real? That's a true story.

56:51

Yeah, yeah. I was dating someone and we

56:53

were playing Twilight and Imperium and it was

56:55

time for trade to pop. And I was

56:57

like, oh, okay. So the way we do

57:00

this in the community and it's like agreed upon the

57:03

numbers are that it's fair and it's just so that

57:05

we do it quickly. And she was just like, I

57:07

think you're lying to me right now. And

57:09

I was like, no, no, no, it really

57:11

is. So she was like, nah, I think.

57:13

And then it took forever. It took so

57:15

long. It was like, because then it was

57:17

like, she kind of had to like learn.

57:19

She had to like take

57:21

it one. I mean, that's the whole reason X minus

57:23

one is like great because you get through everybody

57:26

gets what they want very quickly. That's

57:28

why X minus one is like the

57:30

opposite of support swapping where it's actually

57:32

we actually came up with something good

57:34

and we made the game less lame

57:36

by coming up with a good thing.

57:39

Yeah, I totally disagree with this because

57:41

I feel like X minus one is

57:44

basically a form of win making when you do

57:46

it in round one. You're

57:48

so generous to these factions that have

57:50

specific break points like giving our break

57:52

their trade good tech giving Nalu a

57:54

trade good to get an extra token

57:57

like sure that the X minus one value

57:59

there is. so different in round one

58:01

than rounds two through four. And

58:04

then of course round five, it all goes away

58:06

based on objectives anyway. Yeah. But

58:08

I think like. You know, those are very particular examples

58:10

though that you cited and I feel like it'd be

58:12

pretty easy to build a table of six where it's

58:14

like, ah, it's pretty much a wash. But you're right,

58:17

there are facts in that we could hold to

58:19

the firewalls. There's a lot of facts that

58:21

have that just based on their home system

58:23

spends, right? Like Hakan is obviously gonna get

58:25

stuff, but Arjun being able to

58:27

get that extra trade good for a command

58:29

token. It's big. It's big, right? I think

58:32

there's a lot of those when you go

58:34

through them. I love how much we're talking

58:36

about how much you all hate early game

58:38

boat floating. So my, I'm in the semi-finals

58:41

of the async tournament and

58:43

our round one, I

58:45

orchestrated an entire plan for

58:48

the round and got everybody on board with

58:50

it. And I built a spreadsheet that had

58:52

every single person's action, every single round and

58:55

what they should do. And

58:57

it all worked and everybody did

58:59

it and it was a great thing. And then very

59:03

early into round two, we have almost eliminated

59:05

our brick. So I don't know where we

59:07

got, but

59:10

I've clearly shown both sides of the coin,

59:12

I think in this single game that is very

59:14

far from finishing. I like that you finally

59:16

pulled that off. I'm not sure I understand what

59:18

you were saying you did. Like what, you

59:21

made a spreadsheet that told everyone what

59:23

to do? I played a couple of

59:25

games with Matt and he's pulling his

59:27

hair out over trying to optimize diplomacy

59:30

warfare at technology timing. I'm obsessed. And

59:32

it never worked out the way he was. I

59:35

just want everyone to get, I hate those

59:38

three strategy cards when they're in the round

59:40

together and I just want everybody to come

59:42

out okay. I hate it when like communication

59:44

doesn't happen and then it means one person

59:46

is just completely left in the cold. I

59:49

don't know why I should be fine with

59:51

that as long as it's not me that's left out in

59:53

the cold, but I want everyone to have

59:55

a good round, round one

59:57

so bad. It's funny because I... I

1:00:00

feel like when Diplo pops and it doesn't work

1:00:03

for everybody, I'm okay with that. But for some

1:00:05

reason, I'm a fan of X minus one. So

1:00:07

really, what it comes down to me is it's

1:00:09

all about time. It sounds like

1:00:11

making Diplo work for everybody takes time.

1:00:13

I don't like that. X minus one,

1:00:16

it's fast. I like it. That's really

1:00:18

all it comes down to for me.

1:00:20

Yeah, it's true. Although I will note

1:00:22

our game is the second fastest

1:00:24

it sounds like of the six

1:00:26

semi-final games. So I don't

1:00:29

know. Once the plan, it took a long time.

1:00:31

There was a long time of no action. Oh, well,

1:00:33

you had to make a spreadsheet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

1:00:35

had to make a spreadsheet. You need to know. There

1:00:37

were three days of no actions and then two days

1:00:39

of every single action of the entire round. Oh,

1:00:42

and do you think you really see

1:00:44

people paying the command token for the secondary

1:00:46

of trade? Never. Oh

1:00:49

my gosh. Is that just the most

1:00:51

underutilized thing in the entire game?

1:00:54

I think some people should do it more. Like,

1:00:56

Jolnar should do it. You shouldn't replenish Jolnar and

1:00:58

Jolnar should just spend the token or

1:01:00

whatever. I think if you get offered an X minus

1:01:02

two, I will do it sometimes. Yeah. I

1:01:04

think there's a handful of factions that will do it if

1:01:07

they're not given an option. But I think, yeah, factions

1:01:10

will accept the X minus two more

1:01:12

often than spend the token. Because

1:01:15

it works out to basically the same value for

1:01:17

them. Yeah. You can have a

1:01:19

slice though that kind of supports it, right? And to me, Jolnar

1:01:22

is a classic example too because it's like, I got five influence

1:01:24

at home. If I have any

1:01:26

additional influence on the slice, I can actually kind

1:01:28

of burn the command tokens and then the trade

1:01:30

goods are the resources I need for other stuff

1:01:33

or whatever. Yeah. I think Hunter's

1:01:35

point about loving X minus one, I think

1:01:37

that also works because presumably five

1:01:40

to six of the time you are getting the

1:01:42

X minus one as the player without trade. And

1:01:45

one six of the time you have trade and you don't want

1:01:47

to deal with it. I

1:01:50

love getting an X minus one in Drive 1 because I'm

1:01:53

like, this is free money. And

1:01:55

this helps me so much. But yeah, if I take trade, I'm much

1:01:57

less inclined to get it. give

1:02:00

x minus one to the table. I think that's

1:02:02

what eventually won me over to x minus one,

1:02:04

was I was resistant to it for a while.

1:02:06

But I had too many games where it wasn't

1:02:08

even just that if I didn't offer it round

1:02:11

one, I wouldn't be offered it later. It was

1:02:13

that I would get bad deals all game long

1:02:15

because I didn't offer that x minus one. Like

1:02:17

I was just like not getting to move trade

1:02:19

goods around at all because I had spurned the

1:02:21

table and ruined the round one. So it became

1:02:23

not worth it to just like have those kinds

1:02:26

of bad deals anymore. So it's really interesting, because

1:02:28

I feel like a lot of the players that

1:02:30

I've seen, they are really

1:02:32

hesitant to change up whatever plan or

1:02:36

whatever meta they typically play to. So if

1:02:38

someone cuts other people out of trade, the

1:02:41

next round, the table will still include

1:02:43

them in trade on the same x minus one

1:02:46

conditions. And I feel like this is sort of

1:02:48

the one thing that we haven't really discussed at all, is

1:02:50

that there's this whole element of, you

1:02:53

sit down at a table with five players in a tournament

1:02:55

game that you don't know, you kind

1:02:57

of have to play the players as well in terms

1:03:00

of who is going to be willing to win make,

1:03:02

who is going to give up resources to winslay, and

1:03:05

things like that where it's, this

1:03:07

is an element of if I am friends with this

1:03:09

person, then they will give me

1:03:11

their support. If I am friends with

1:03:14

this person, then they'll help me winslay someone to give

1:03:16

us both the better chance. And

1:03:18

it's sort of this unknown where it's

1:03:20

a support swap with Jihan may be

1:03:22

more valuable than a support swap with

1:03:25

Matt. Yeah, right. Although I support

1:03:27

swap with Matt, it's pretty valuable. Yeah,

1:03:29

Jihan's a weird example there. I

1:03:31

find Jihan a pretty scary

1:03:34

player, I don't know. I do

1:03:36

wonder what message I've sent to the players in

1:03:38

my semi's game by having like the most boat

1:03:40

floating I've ever done followed by the like biggest

1:03:42

attack I've ever done in a round two. So

1:03:44

maybe I'm, yeah, maybe I'm doing a good job

1:03:46

and keeping everybody guessing about

1:03:48

what I'm doing. But I absolutely agree, Milti, that

1:03:50

there's, the other reasons

1:03:53

so many of these things have become common

1:03:55

places just because there's so much

1:03:57

more strangers playing TI together than ever

1:03:59

before. You know, the first two to

1:04:01

even three years was very much way

1:04:04

more people only playing TI with their

1:04:07

friends, right? Their close-knit friends physically was

1:04:09

how all of TI was done. And

1:04:12

it's really only recently that like so many more

1:04:14

people are just playing with strangers all the time,

1:04:16

which is why you get these like

1:04:18

little shortcuts to everything. Also,

1:04:21

I think that overall,

1:04:23

when it comes to win-making

1:04:25

by whatever definition you define it,

1:04:27

it makes I think more sense

1:04:29

to see it in something like

1:04:31

a tournament than it makes sense

1:04:34

for when you're with your friends, unless

1:04:36

your friends are particularly, you know,

1:04:39

I mean, unless they're people like us,

1:04:42

then I feel like it

1:04:45

makes sense that so many tournament games end up

1:04:47

that way, I guess is what I'm saying. I

1:04:50

think because of that collision of all of these

1:04:52

different ways of thinking about

1:04:54

the game, and that naturally because

1:04:56

of that environment, you sort of

1:04:58

empower the idea of conning the

1:05:00

other players. Because there's

1:05:02

so much that is not

1:05:05

defined. They don't really have

1:05:07

like a united meta. And

1:05:10

so therefore, there's a lot of room for proposing

1:05:12

something really, you know, out there

1:05:16

and different that maybe ends in a

1:05:18

way that the audience perceives as being

1:05:20

very win-making. But to me, just

1:05:22

kind of seems like normal, you know, just seems like

1:05:24

it's a Tuesday, I guess. Well,

1:05:26

cool. Dane, Milti, thank

1:05:29

you both for hanging out with us and

1:05:31

talking through all this. We now have all

1:05:33

of the answers we were looking for and

1:05:35

the problem is solved. We've solved win-making, everyone.

1:05:38

And you can go forward with all of the

1:05:40

advice given here in. Yep, it's over. Co-op, boat

1:05:42

float, TI. Done. We did

1:05:45

it. Nailed it. It's a meta advance.

1:05:47

High five. Just

1:05:49

for the record, just to maybe speak for some people that

1:05:51

are listening, I just want to say to you, Dane, for

1:05:54

the record, if you announce

1:05:56

tomorrow that support for the throne is out

1:05:58

of the game, I don't. I know

1:06:00

that you would get, I don't know

1:06:02

that people would complain very much. I think people

1:06:04

would be like, yeah, that's all right. People would

1:06:06

be like, yeah, we shouldn't have been doing that,

1:06:08

do we? Like, they would have been called out

1:06:10

on it. They would have been like, yeah, I

1:06:12

knew that was wrong. Actually. I

1:06:15

think that, I think that honestly, that

1:06:17

is a reaction that I would get and maybe

1:06:19

not an uncommon one, but there will be people,

1:06:22

a lot of people who will be neutral about it and

1:06:25

there will be people that are upset, I think.

1:06:27

Yeah, of course. Yeah, there always is. But

1:06:29

like, quite a few. So I

1:06:31

don't know what to do. You

1:06:33

guys figure it out, it's fine. And

1:06:37

so it always goes, he leaves it

1:06:39

to us, Hunter. I

1:06:42

want to thank our Weird Bears, Bigout

1:06:49

Cupachino, Squee-Mishimu, BLT, Brass Bird,

1:06:51

Kavala Soul, Kaluin, Dandelion, Darryl,

1:06:54

Drago Faxon, Elspeth SC, Jadim

1:06:56

Jedi, Cardinal, Alice, Emlashefsky, Nick,

1:06:59

Absol, RY's and Tang, and I want

1:07:01

to thank our baby child, big friends,

1:07:04

Kraken, Hormandia, Kirkules, Relikstan, and Vince, you

1:07:06

can rate this podcast on apps. I

1:07:08

don't know, do it. Rate this podcast

1:07:11

on your next appetizer that you order

1:07:13

at any restaurant. Just draw it into

1:07:15

the dip. Whatever dip

1:07:18

you get, write five stars into

1:07:20

it. And that's rating us, we

1:07:22

had a really good one this week, Hunter, we had an

1:07:24

incredibly good rating. I know. I

1:07:27

need to call this one out because I'm really proud. I'm

1:07:29

really proud of you all. This is like the best review

1:07:31

we've ever gotten. I am

1:07:33

so impressed and delighted. We

1:07:39

really are just trying to have fun whenever we

1:07:41

throw out those prompts on the five star reviews.

1:07:44

It is just a joke, we are just having

1:07:46

fun. But this is the most

1:07:48

I've ever seen someone take what we said

1:07:50

and run with it. And it's beautiful to

1:07:52

me. TJ Wolf 77, thank

1:07:55

you for your review on Apple

1:07:58

Podcasts. What wonders the iPhone. half-rot.

1:08:00

Five stars! I recently decided to

1:08:02

try out a smartphone. My granddaughter

1:08:04

has been nagging me to get

1:08:07

with it. While I do miss

1:08:09

my old flip phone with buttons,

1:08:11

this iPhone 14, who is it?

1:08:13

What's it? It's truly a marvel

1:08:16

of modern technology, and apparently child

1:08:18

labour scrapping for precious metals needs

1:08:20

for such technological miracle. Well, at

1:08:22

any rate, the screen has so

1:08:25

many little things on it. I've

1:08:27

tapped one that's labeled podcasts. So

1:08:29

up came two young gentlemen to

1:08:31

have a rather obtuse discussion regarding cats

1:08:33

and turtles and space. Oh, and Phil

1:08:36

Collins as well. I just love him.

1:08:38

Soussous Studio forever. Seems weird to just

1:08:40

have a button for nothing but these

1:08:42

talky guys. The conversation shifted to algebra,

1:08:44

specifically X minus one, but they never

1:08:46

did figure out that problem. Anywho, check

1:08:49

out this thing. I guess this is

1:08:51

what the purple podcast square is for

1:08:53

on my phone. I should check with

1:08:55

my granddaughter who knows about this. I

1:08:59

love, this is such a good review because it,

1:09:01

well, first of all, it creates a little world

1:09:03

that you can kind of live in. And it's

1:09:05

a world where is his

1:09:07

granddaughter into

1:09:09

space cats? Or did

1:09:11

the algorithm deliver space cats to this guy?

1:09:14

I think so. Like first, it was on

1:09:16

top of the stack. Yeah, we're at the

1:09:18

top of the feed. Because of all of

1:09:20

your amazing ratings, we're at the top of

1:09:22

the Apple podcast. It's gotta be that. Yeah.

1:09:25

So it has this like double aspect to

1:09:27

it where it's fiction

1:09:30

written exactly to our prom. And

1:09:32

it includes actually like a deep

1:09:34

compliment of us when the algorithm

1:09:37

has said, like imagine your life.

1:09:39

If you have just bought an

1:09:41

iPhone, you pull up the podcast

1:09:43

app. And the first thing the

1:09:46

algorithm throws at you is, do

1:09:48

you want to know a lot about Twilight Imperium?

1:09:50

Is that what you want to know about? We're

1:09:52

looking for truly this. We don't know a lot

1:09:54

about you yet, you know, but we were thinking

1:09:56

maybe you should start here. Those

1:09:59

are, we. I rag on the YouTube commenters

1:10:01

a lot on this show. My favorite YouTube

1:10:03

comments that we get that I will never

1:10:05

delete are the ones where someone just says,

1:10:07

why is this in my feed? I

1:10:13

need to reply to those more often and be like, I don't

1:10:15

know, man. I don't know how we got here, but you're welcome.

1:10:18

Yeah. Yeah. We

1:10:20

are unalgorithmable. Okay. Hey,

1:10:22

guess what? We've

1:10:26

got some more prelims games this coming weekend. I'd

1:10:28

like to announce for you prelims game number seven.

1:10:30

These are some weird times this weekend. Okay, everybody.

1:10:32

And if you're a prelims player looking to get

1:10:34

in the game, these are like just getting posted.

1:10:38

And so hop on there and sign

1:10:40

yourself up. But you might have to do a

1:10:42

lot of weird math to figure out what time

1:10:44

this is for you. Okay. Prelims

1:10:46

game number seven is Saturday

1:10:48

at 600 UTC. So

1:10:52

to be clear for us stupid Americans

1:10:54

who are always very bad at UTC,

1:10:57

that is very, very late Friday night.

1:11:00

Okay. Everybody for the rest

1:11:02

of the world, it's just Saturday. Okay.

1:11:04

And it can just be Saturday. But for us, we have

1:11:07

so much trip-up-itude and I don't want

1:11:09

to see Americans signing up for this game and then

1:11:11

bowing out of it like six hours before because they're

1:11:13

like, wait, it's 6pm on a Friday. I'm not playing

1:11:15

a game in six hours. That's wild. So

1:11:18

yes, six o'clock UTC

1:11:21

on Drew Minuss's Twitch channel, twitch.tv

1:11:24

slash Drew Minuss. Game

1:11:26

number eight is another weird

1:11:28

one. Sunday

1:11:30

at 200 UTC

1:11:32

on the Space Cats Peace Turtle Switch.

1:11:35

That's also late. That is also late,

1:11:37

but like early evening. It's

1:11:39

like 8pm my time. I'm hosting that

1:11:41

one at like 8pm my time. I'm

1:11:43

going to die Saturday night. Saturday

1:11:46

night, mask and the die live on

1:11:48

stream at twitch.tv slash Space Cats Peace

1:11:50

Turtles. And finally, prelims game number nine

1:11:52

is Sunday at 1700 on J.O. Ear

1:11:56

Camp. So we're really all three different

1:11:58

channels getting represented for this weekend. because like we said at

1:12:00

the top of the show, there's like moving

1:12:02

and stuff going on. There's a lot of, Hunter and

1:12:05

I really wanted to do like

1:12:07

almost every game for the prelims, and

1:12:09

then our whole lives got chucked out

1:12:11

the second story window. So we are

1:12:13

scrambling to make the prelims just happen

1:12:15

on time. Also, it's my last weekend

1:12:17

in New York City as a resident

1:12:19

of New York will be this

1:12:21

coming weekend, and then I am outta

1:12:23

here, getting out of this one-horse town

1:12:26

and going to the big city lights. Minneapolis

1:12:30

is many like. Minneapolis, Minnesota,

1:12:32

the city of lights, they

1:12:34

call it. Hey,

1:12:37

we've got an agenda face. Heck

1:12:41

yeah. Cardboard Crash Course, love you also,

1:12:43

by the way, love you buddy. Hey

1:12:46

bud, you're great. Check our Cardboard Crash Course

1:12:48

on YouTube for also Spirit Island stuff, T.I.

1:12:51

stuff. All kinds of little more game things.

1:12:53

Guys, guys and stuff. So

1:12:55

Cardboard Crash Course asks, what is the

1:12:57

best way to improve the atmosphere of

1:13:00

quote unquote buddies around the table? Twilight

1:13:02

Imperium. Changes you have made to the

1:13:04

rules or additions you've made to make

1:13:06

the most fun experience in person, probably

1:13:09

with the holiday extravaganza, et cetera. Yeah, so

1:13:11

we're gonna have to get theoretical on this

1:13:13

one. Well, we do have

1:13:15

one, we actually do have one specific rule that

1:13:19

really helps the buddies around the table. Yeah,

1:13:21

yeah, what is it? And that's every

1:13:23

time you finish a round, you put a Pokemon

1:13:25

card in an empty space and the Pokemon cards

1:13:27

count the round. Count the round, yeah. So no

1:13:29

Pokemon cards is round one and then one Pokemon

1:13:32

card is round two. Yeah, yeah. Therefore,

1:13:34

that's just like the easy way to count

1:13:36

the rounds, is Pokemon cards on the table.

1:13:40

I'm trying to think of more concrete stuff I've got.

1:13:42

I try not to sit next to you, Matt.

1:13:45

We have not found the proper coordination.

1:13:47

Actually, this year was the best one, which

1:13:49

is Matt doesn't play and he just kind

1:13:51

of hosts and run around in the background.

1:13:54

That was our most enjoyable holiday

1:13:56

spectacular yet. Wow, is

1:13:58

that our best advice? consider not

1:14:00

playing. Have your analysis paralysis angry

1:14:03

friend sit out and find a

1:14:05

different role in the friend group.

1:14:09

I think I think buddies around

1:14:11

the table TI benefits from more

1:14:14

of a snack vibe. You

1:14:16

know more of a like

1:14:19

we're hanging out and and talking about

1:14:21

stuff and maybe

1:14:23

focusing less on the game if that's

1:14:26

possible but

1:14:29

I really don't play buddies around the table TI

1:14:31

and I kind of feel like this the reason

1:14:33

I selected this question was I was like well

1:14:35

first of all I just want to say nice

1:14:37

things about cardboard crash course but second of all

1:14:39

I kind of just wanted to like kind of sit

1:14:42

in this for a second and just say like we

1:14:45

need to play more like regular game. Well and

1:14:47

we're about to be able to right that's the

1:14:49

advantage of this year is we're about to be

1:14:52

in the same place and we get to make

1:14:54

a bunch of new buddies in Minneapolis and just

1:14:56

like actually have in-person games relatively

1:14:58

often like as often as we want to

1:15:00

so I'm very excited so I would love

1:15:02

for some errata from folks in this channel

1:15:05

talking about their favorite buddies around the TI table

1:15:08

stuff. I would say I do

1:15:11

think especially there's two different contexts of

1:15:13

buddies around the table TI right there's

1:15:16

I've conned my friends into playing TI for

1:15:18

the first or second time and so we're

1:15:21

gonna kind of let anything happen right there's

1:15:23

there's the like oh we're not gonna worry

1:15:25

about things that speed things up too

1:15:27

much like let people have their fun let people make bad

1:15:29

dumb trades with each other and you just sort of have

1:15:31

to live with it and then there's like

1:15:34

this these are my five buddies we play

1:15:36

TI right you know once a month or

1:15:38

something and and that one is like more

1:15:40

about how can you I would

1:15:42

say that's when it's like let's what are the best

1:15:44

tools to sort of speeding things up so that we

1:15:47

don't get hung up right same talking points every single

1:15:49

game or whatever. Yeah I

1:15:51

agree with that I think

1:15:53

that homebrew is kind of

1:15:55

an interesting like like

1:15:57

aspect to this that I I

1:16:00

don't know that we really speak to you

1:16:02

that much, but there are like, I think

1:16:04

some things that you can chill out on,

1:16:06

like, I think doing the agenda phase the

1:16:08

quote unquote right way is not necessary for

1:16:10

every group. Right. You can just

1:16:12

call out if anybody wants to play any cards,

1:16:14

wins or afters, and just let them play cards.

1:16:17

Can I tell ya, we were talking about this

1:16:19

in my Twitch chat the other day. I'm

1:16:21

just sick, I'm sick of all the little rituals

1:16:24

actually. Like I am actually. And I think Async

1:16:26

has done this to me, because Async, it really

1:16:28

is like, everybody's kinda just like, listen, man, we

1:16:30

don't have time to sit here and wait for

1:16:32

everybody. Right. Draw a secret

1:16:35

and then discard a secret, and then it

1:16:37

might be like tomorrow before the next person

1:16:39

does that. Just draw your secret and discard

1:16:41

your secret. The statistical variation is so low.

1:16:43

It's so minor. It doesn't matter. And it

1:16:45

has really shifted my thinking of like, so

1:16:47

do we need to do any of this

1:16:50

or could we all chill a little bit,

1:16:52

okay? And just like, just get secrets and

1:16:54

accept that they're not. I

1:16:56

think we like got ourselves into that thinking because

1:16:58

base game, the secrets were so limited, right? And

1:17:00

so then there was like a, by the end

1:17:02

of the game, you can count out every single

1:17:05

one. Now it's a random grab anyways,

1:17:07

right? There's half the secrets are still

1:17:09

on the deck by the end of

1:17:11

the game. And

1:17:13

the same thing is true of the agenda phase.

1:17:15

Just like play your wins and play your afters,

1:17:17

okay? Just play them. It doesn't matter. Yeah, it's

1:17:19

not optimal, but who cares? Like you don't need

1:17:22

to make the agenda phase

1:17:24

optimal. Yeah, it's not worth it. It's not worth

1:17:26

the time. What you get out of the agenda

1:17:28

phase is not worth that sort of investment. Right.

1:17:32

Now, if you're playing a tournament game, obviously there's a

1:17:34

whole meta game aspect to playing writers, but I don't

1:17:37

know, when you're just playing with your buddies, like, just,

1:17:40

hey, I'm playing this. Yeah. Just say it. Yeah. Put

1:17:42

it out there. Just talk to your friends. Just talk

1:17:44

to your friends and be like, ah, I'm gonna play

1:17:46

this. Yeah. Done. Don't care.

1:17:48

Absolutely. So yeah, I do think

1:17:50

that Twilight Imperium with like kind of

1:17:52

a loosey goosey, more laid back

1:17:55

attitude is probably a lot.

1:17:57

It's a lot easier to parse. It's like less,

1:17:59

it hurts your brain. Brainless yeah, which is good if

1:18:01

you're trying to hang out with your but one especially

1:18:03

when you're trying to teach new people And then you're

1:18:05

constantly like Filling them in on

1:18:08

the weird little semantics of things hey guess

1:18:10

what that's a super not fun way to

1:18:12

learn a board game Because you don't retain

1:18:14

any of that information you will not retain

1:18:16

when versus after okay in your in your

1:18:18

first game It's ei or it maybe you

1:18:20

can it's just not worth retaining that like

1:18:22

why have that be the focus of what

1:18:24

your first game? Was is like trying to

1:18:26

get all this lingo down just learn the

1:18:28

vibes of how the game kind of goes

1:18:30

and? And go on move

1:18:32

on with your day something Dane said in this episode is

1:18:35

like the idea And maybe maybe it

1:18:37

was like also before the call, but I've

1:18:39

heard Dane talk about the notion that

1:18:42

Yeah, it wasn't this episode because support for the throne shortens

1:18:44

the game by around essentially right It's like some of

1:18:46

these things are designed to have a little bit more

1:18:48

time and and you see Whole new

1:18:50

groups still going around a easy because they're

1:18:52

they're not so hyper focused on objectives They're

1:18:54

kind of goofing around and having more

1:18:57

fun and letting the war of the game take over

1:18:59

and let the other aspects of it Just sort of

1:19:02

you know fill in and

1:19:04

I I do think are like Playing

1:19:07

the game too good gets in the way of some of

1:19:10

that stuff you don't get to experience as much of the

1:19:12

tech you Don't get to experience as much as just like

1:19:14

stuff in the game Yeah,

1:19:17

I wish I could like kind of

1:19:19

transport myself back to Pre

1:19:21

space cats mindset for me and play

1:19:24

Twilight and period that way just for

1:19:26

the experience of that yeah But

1:19:29

you know just can't do it. It

1:19:31

can't be new again You

1:19:34

know man not until we get codex for

1:19:36

dang you promise a We

1:19:39

didn't call them out on that. Oh, well we now we are we

1:19:41

really Hey galactic

1:19:43

council your episode is next week. It is the

1:19:45

pre the guide to the prelims so thank you

1:19:47

everybody for voting on that and I

1:19:50

Do it over for it voting I think is

1:19:53

over by now by the time this is actually

1:19:55

in people's hands you have like a day left

1:19:57

And I don't think the disparity between the options

1:19:59

is close enough to me. Well get

1:20:01

in there because I want to do top

1:20:03

10 video game. Yeah. Play. Oh yeah. Alright.

1:20:05

33% to 40%. If a huge

1:20:07

legion of you jumped into the last second, we

1:20:09

could do top 10 video games this whole day.

1:20:11

I'm going to say that's the one I really

1:20:13

want to do in that group. Everybody and all

1:20:15

the others. And the other two options that weren't

1:20:17

doing as well, you know, kudos

1:20:20

to you for following your heart and following

1:20:22

your bliss. But if you shifted your votes

1:20:24

over to video games, Hunter and I could

1:20:26

do something way dumber. Just so you know.

1:20:28

Yeah. And also I just think it's really

1:20:30

hilarious for us to do it like

1:20:32

this. To be like, here's your choice.

1:20:34

You can choose whatever you want. But

1:20:36

when I want to do this one,

1:20:38

please, where does do that one? Just

1:20:42

kidding. We'll do whatever one you want. We'll do whatever.

1:20:44

Yep. We're adults. And Hunter Homebrewer's Guild, I think it's

1:20:46

the same thing as last week essentially, right? It's just

1:20:48

that there's a lot of things. I have an update.

1:20:51

Okay. Great. Great. Great. Great. So I have found an

1:20:53

official graphic designer

1:20:59

for the LasX Twilight

1:21:01

Imperium 4 POK edition.

1:21:04

It is Kakotopos,

1:21:07

which I hope I pronounced that right.

1:21:09

No idea if I did. Kakotopus? I

1:21:11

am a cocktopus.

1:21:14

No? No, because it's not

1:21:16

a you there, Matt. It's Kakotopos. I'm

1:21:19

not reading it. I really

1:21:21

stepped in there because I'm not even looking at

1:21:24

the word. I just went off of what you

1:21:26

said and decided, how could I reinterpret those syllables

1:21:28

into something different? Wow. Yeah,

1:21:32

I think I would. Don't do that, folks. That was

1:21:34

very interesting. You're not going to be very much

1:21:43

of that one.

1:21:46

Yeah, so today I just kind of like

1:21:48

butted in on something that I didn't have

1:21:50

any idea. It just kind of threw out a

1:21:52

gap. You mean the brand new. Yeah.

1:21:58

But yeah, so we have a graphic designer. So

1:22:00

which means that I expect by

1:22:03

this weekend, well sorry, by you

1:22:05

hearing this, the

1:22:08

components are all finalized. We

1:22:10

have our final draft of it is

1:22:12

set and then we're just

1:22:14

waiting on Keko Topos. No,

1:22:18

you got me saying it. I got you. So

1:22:22

we're going to be waiting on them

1:22:25

to finish the components and

1:22:27

then hopefully we'll get those done on time

1:22:30

for a stream that last weekend. That

1:22:32

last weekend is going to be really tight for

1:22:34

me. I'm going to be driving across the country

1:22:36

but I am going to go ahead and say

1:22:38

that I'm going to try to make it

1:22:40

happen. I do not want to push this back anymore. But

1:22:43

I did, I was originally going to

1:22:45

drive across the country in the middle of

1:22:47

next week and now it's happening towards the

1:22:49

end of next week because of just

1:22:52

bad stuff that

1:22:55

happened. But I still think

1:22:57

it's possible so we will just see

1:22:59

how it goes. And you'll be able to see

1:23:01

those final components hopefully soon and

1:23:03

they'll be imported into the TTPG version

1:23:07

of Twilight and Period. So there you go. Homebrewer's

1:23:09

Guild update done. You know

1:23:11

what I want to do Hunter? I'm thinking

1:23:13

about win making and I'm just thinking next time

1:23:16

you and I play together, we just

1:23:18

need to do an Ernest attempt,

1:23:20

Ernest Sanders attempt at a

1:23:24

Rider die. Why don't we Rider die each other

1:23:26

and just see how that feels? It'll feel bad

1:23:28

but why don't we do it to whoever is

1:23:30

in the room with us? You and me just

1:23:33

commit to win making each other out

1:23:35

the gate like a weird married couple.

1:23:39

I'm just going to say Matt that I

1:23:41

think the problem, I don't think you have a

1:23:43

very good memory for stuff

1:23:46

just in general. I think you have

1:23:48

a bad memory because we actually have

1:23:50

been here before and the last time we

1:23:52

did this you went back on

1:23:54

it in round one. So

1:23:56

no Matt, we can't do that.

1:24:00

We didn't say a ride or die, we just said we were

1:24:02

gonna be nice to each other and then I

1:24:04

didn't even do anything that mean

1:24:06

to you. Yeah,

1:24:09

well regardless you made deals with me that where

1:24:11

you weren't really being straight up on your side

1:24:13

and that's happened so many times. I don't think

1:24:15

we can do a ride or die. I

1:24:18

need to go back to that game and see. I

1:24:22

don't know. I don't know. Okay, sure, go

1:24:24

lawyer mode on it. That'll help your case. You

1:24:26

know what I mean? You're

1:24:28

like, listen, I don't want to try, I'm not

1:24:31

interested in creating good will for the future,

1:24:33

I'm interested in gaslighting the past. That's real,

1:24:35

that's what you're communicating to me. You're

1:24:38

like, I don't care, let's not

1:24:40

build this on a foundation of niceness,

1:24:42

let's go right to gaslighting. It's not

1:24:44

about if I am mean, it's about

1:24:47

that you're wrong. Thank

1:24:49

you. That's good, we're definitely gonna have

1:24:51

a great ride or die. We've got

1:24:54

all the everything set up. We're

1:24:56

definitely riding or dying. Thank

1:25:03

you for listening to Space Cat's Peace

1:25:06

Turtles and thanks to Ben Prunty for

1:25:08

the use of his music. You can

1:25:10

find more at benpruntymusic.com and benprunty.bandcamp.com. Pax

1:25:18

Magnifica, Bellum, Lori Osm.