0:00

Hi, I'm Asha Tomlinson. And I'm David

0:02

Common. Hi, I'm Asha Tomlinson. And I'm

0:04

David Common. And we're hosts

0:07

of CBC Marketplace. We're award-winning

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investigative journalists that want to

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help you avoid clever scams,

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unsafe products and sketchy services.

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Our TV show has been Canada's

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top investigative consumer watchdog for more

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than 50 years, but

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this is our first podcast.

0:24

CBC Marketplace Podcast is available now

0:27

on the CBC Listen app or wherever

0:29

you get your podcasts. This

0:32

is a CBC Podcast. Hi,

0:37

I'm Nora Young. This is Spark. Tell

0:41

me, what does it mean to be

0:43

human in this particular technological moment? It

0:46

can seem like conventional measures of what's

0:48

true, permanent and, well, human are up

0:50

for grabs in the face of rapidly

0:53

advancing tech. And if there's

0:55

no special Spark that truly separates us from

0:57

other animals or our technological creations,

1:00

does it matter? That's what we'll try to

1:03

answer in our 10-part series, Being Human Now.

1:08

This time, play. Think

1:22

back to when you were a kid. Where

1:24

did you play? We had this

1:26

ravine near our house where the neighbourhood kids

1:28

would get together. The best part

1:30

was playing on the rope swing that crossed

1:33

the stream. Whatever

1:36

your childhood memories are, I bet a lot

1:38

of them have to do with playing. It's

1:41

how we learn about the world and ourselves. Play

1:43

helps us develop creativity, confidence

1:45

and social skills. But somewhere

1:47

along the road to adulthood,

1:50

play starts slipping down the ladder of

1:52

priorities in our lives. Many

1:55

of us even stop calling it play, as though we've

1:57

outgrown the word. Instead, we

1:59

say, hobby. or creation or

2:01

leisure. That idea

2:04

of leisure

2:06

we've talked about it as an illusion because can

2:08

we ever truly be fully detached from work or

2:11

responsibility. So leisure is in its purest

2:14

sense is this kind of playful

2:17

vivaciousness of experience that allows you

2:21

to be in your body and yourself fully and you do it for

2:23

the sake of doing it as doing

2:26

it for money, doing it for a gain

2:29

in a relationship. My

2:32

name is Kim Lopez. I work as an

2:34

assistant professor at the University of

2:36

Waterloo in the faculty of health. Kim

2:39

is also the 2020 recipient of the

2:42

Emerging Leisure Scholar Award from the

2:44

Canadian Association for Leisure Studies. But

2:46

ask her what she does and she

2:49

doesn't stop with work. Some of my

2:51

interests are hanging out with

2:53

my family and exploring new spaces and going

2:55

to community centres and watching my kid run

2:57

around the track and walking my

2:59

dog. Those are the things I really enjoy

3:01

and that's my live for the

3:04

weekend little spiel as well. It's

3:06

easy to dismiss time away from

3:08

our professional or personal obligations

3:10

as unproductive or use

3:12

our leisure time just to feel rejuvenated

3:14

enough to prepare for work. The

3:17

time that feels fully free has

3:19

a tremendous impact on all parts of our

3:21

lives. That's everything that we

3:23

kind of strive towards that time that we

3:25

have to ourselves with the people we love

3:27

and doing the things

3:30

that we enjoy doing. So I think that

3:32

once we have the free time and space

3:34

to invest in that part of

3:36

our lives, the rest of our lives

3:38

really are able to flourish. And

3:41

yet instead of flourishing for many

3:43

of us, leisure

3:45

has been something that we felt

3:48

that we needed to earn. But

3:50

we all have a right to an access

3:53

to leisure. I believe it's one of the

3:55

United Nations core principles that

3:57

we all have a right to rest leisure. and

4:00

a healthy life. A

4:03

right to rest and leisure. You're

4:06

not alone if you're thinking, sure, maybe

4:08

someday, because even when you try to carve

4:10

out time for it, it doesn't quite feel

4:12

like it did when you were a kid,

4:15

running around at the park, not a care

4:17

in the world. It

4:21

may be hard to believe, but public

4:23

playgrounds weren't always the norm. It

4:25

was something that basically had to be

4:27

invented as a response to industrialized urbanization

4:30

in the early 1900s. So

4:33

the playground movement was established

4:35

by a group of women

4:37

who recognized that there was

4:39

a need for kids and

4:42

families to occupy spaces in

4:44

their communities that was separate from school

4:48

and for them to gather

4:50

and connect over something that was

4:53

pure play. And

4:55

so in that movement, we

4:58

saw that children could be their

5:00

best selves when they were in

5:02

structured play, these

5:04

spaces of unrestrained,

5:06

free expression and

5:09

exploration, what allowed

5:11

children to fully kind of form

5:13

as independent human beings in

5:15

different ways. Yeah.

5:18

I mean, I guess I sort of took playgrounds for granted, but

5:20

I lived not far from the first

5:22

public playground in Toronto, and it seemed

5:25

like it was a relatively

5:27

recent creation, like turn of the 20th century.

5:30

Yeah. Well, it was a response to

5:32

folks who were often poor and

5:34

marginalized in society in many ways,

5:36

having access to that space where

5:38

leisure was often reserved for the

5:40

elite. And so

5:42

this came as a response to them

5:45

needing respite from those long work days

5:47

and creating positive morale. So community

5:50

centers, recreation facilities, the

5:52

opportunity to engage over

5:55

a meaningful activity with low cost

5:57

really kind of allows them to be

5:59

more accessible. those communities to come

6:01

alive and enrich those spaces

6:04

with, you know, vitality and

6:06

passion and connection between people.

6:08

Mm-hmm. I'd love to learn

6:10

more about your research on digital access to

6:12

leisure during the pandemic in particular. So, first

6:14

of all, can you give me some examples

6:16

of the types of accessibility you were investigating?

6:19

The project came out of a

6:22

need to understand older adults and

6:24

their engagement with technology and

6:27

how they were navigating technology and the

6:29

need for more technology during the pandemic.

6:32

And often we found that older

6:34

adults kind of fell into one

6:36

of two major groups. They were

6:38

open and adopting of the new

6:41

technologies, willing to kind of explore

6:43

and play to enable themselves to

6:45

continue to do the activities that

6:47

they like to do, or folks

6:49

who were interested in kind

6:51

of pursuing activities offline and really

6:53

needing to be creative in the

6:56

offline space. But for the

6:58

research that we were interested in, we were

7:01

looking at how folks were using technology

7:03

as a means to maintain

7:05

their social connections, either with family

7:07

or with friends, in really interesting

7:10

and creative ways. For

7:12

example, grocery delivery is the apps

7:14

that people were using to

7:17

pick up their groceries or order

7:20

takeout or connect

7:22

to their churches and church

7:24

communities to listen to

7:26

audiobooks or live readings that they

7:28

were using, or even to gather

7:31

for dinner. I knew of one

7:33

couple that was part of a dinner group

7:35

that they would meet up with couples every

7:37

weekend, but during the pandemic they couldn't do

7:39

that. So, instead, there

7:41

were seven couples that would meet online

7:44

and they would order using their phones

7:46

through an app to place

7:48

a restaurant and they would all receive

7:51

food from that restaurant and then have

7:53

conversation online. So they

7:55

were able to maintain their dinner club through Zoom

7:58

and other online platforms. Yeah,

8:01

during the pandemic, my father, who was at the

8:03

time in his late 90s, learned to use

8:06

video chat, which was an interesting

8:08

experience walking him through that. But because

8:10

he saw the value of the connection,

8:12

like it really, he was always

8:15

very sort of anti the internet. Because

8:18

he could see that connection to

8:20

leisure, to pleasure, to family, it

8:22

suddenly became something that he wanted

8:24

to engage in. Yeah, I mean,

8:26

we can't discount the importance of

8:28

face to face connection. And I

8:30

think things like zoom and FaceTime

8:32

and Skype allowed us to do

8:34

that. And while we were already

8:36

doing it pre physical distancing, I

8:38

felt that the pandemic really

8:40

showed us that it was really necessary

8:42

for us to deepen and maintain those

8:44

connections. And technology was an opportunity

8:46

for us all to do that more

8:49

deliberately and with intentionality.

8:52

Mm hmm. So beyond the

8:54

pandemic, how is today's digital technology changing

8:56

the ways we think about and the

8:58

ways we experience leisure? Mm hmm. I

9:01

think we're still feeling a few aftershocks

9:03

from the pandemic in terms of technology.

9:05

And we're really learning how to work

9:08

with it in an integral way, because

9:10

we're still ramping back up

9:12

into in person spaces. But we're

9:15

not wanting to let go of that privilege the

9:17

privileges that technology has afforded us.

9:19

So telecommuting people are feeling

9:22

less inclined to commute

9:24

long distances when there's a

9:26

readily available opportunity to meet

9:28

online. I've often talked

9:31

to people about how people are more

9:33

readily able to show up in spaces

9:35

online, even for leisure

9:37

gatherings and, you know, friendly

9:40

gatherings, and feel safe

9:42

in terms of, you know, not spreading illness and

9:44

that type of thing. So I feel

9:46

like we're, you know, trying

9:48

to work with this space, but

9:51

also attempting to kind of sprinkle

9:53

in those in person moments, I

9:55

feel like people are still emerging

9:58

from what was this. very

10:00

technologically demanding space

10:03

and we're trying to

10:05

redefine ourselves as both physical

10:08

and technological beings simultaneously. But

10:11

are there any downsides to that? Like if we

10:13

get used to ordering our groceries online and we

10:15

don't even have to see the person who's delivering

10:17

them, you know, in

10:19

terms of our leisure and interpersonal communications,

10:21

is there a downside to that digital

10:23

connection? I certainly think

10:25

it's changing. I'm not sure if it's

10:27

a downside, but some people may

10:30

perceive it as that because a lot of

10:32

people's spontaneous connections happen through

10:34

the activities of daily living, going

10:36

to the bank and talking to

10:38

the teller or meeting

10:40

somebody at the checkout and those

10:42

types of, you know, happenstance interactions

10:45

that are very leisurely are changing

10:47

for sure. But those

10:49

affordances are allowing us to do other things,

10:51

freeing up our time to engage in leisure

10:54

in different ways and I think that possibility

10:56

is very exciting as well. Our

10:59

digital devices let us engage in leisure

11:02

activities anytime, anywhere, but they also make it

11:04

really tempting to respond to work requests

11:07

outside of work hours. What do you

11:09

make of all this kind of intertwining

11:11

and overlapping of work and leisure? This

11:14

is where we need to get better in my opinion, I

11:16

think. We are

11:18

finding that our technological devices are

11:20

an extension of ourselves because

11:22

they're so easily accessible. Now they're

11:25

becoming wearable, their watches, their even

11:27

rings, they're monitoring everything that we

11:29

do all the time. When

11:31

we think about, you know, exercise even becoming

11:33

something that we're needing to quote unquote achieve

11:36

in our day to day light as part

11:38

of work that we do, right? So

11:40

I mean, I think it's really difficult

11:43

to say that we clock out at

11:45

a certain time because it's so a

11:48

part of our online

11:50

ethos, right? You can't disentangle

11:52

that, but I think we're getting better

11:54

almost at integrating leisure into work more

11:57

so. So I think we're becoming a

11:59

little bit. more sensitive to, I

12:02

really need a break right now. I'm going to

12:04

scroll on TikTok for a few minutes or

12:07

I'm going to chat up my friend

12:09

over here on a video chat for

12:11

a little bit. I think technology allows

12:13

us to also do the reverse

12:15

and integrate moments of leisure in our workday

12:17

potentially just as easily as it goes the

12:20

other way around. But I do feel that

12:22

we need to be a little bit more

12:24

bounded in our work relations online for sure.

12:32

So even if we don't want to conduct our own

12:34

experiments, is it important

12:38

for us to

12:43

understand how

12:51

these incentives work? Why

12:53

don't you want to run

12:55

your own experiment? It's fun.

12:59

Okay. You

13:01

are listening to Spark from the CBC.

13:09

I'm Nora Young and right now my guest is leisure

13:12

expert Kim Lopez. We're talking about how

13:14

play is changing now that so much

13:16

of our lives are digital. We

13:18

fall into our phones, watching reels or

13:21

playing games, engaging in passive

13:23

amusement rather than active play.

13:25

And with so much happening on our all-consuming

13:28

digital devices, it's becoming

13:30

increasingly difficult to disentangle work

13:32

from play or draw

13:34

set lines between them. Adults

13:38

are really resistant to this word

13:40

of play. Society has created this

13:43

almost stigma around adult play

13:45

because when we're not working,

13:48

we're playing and somehow that scene is

13:51

not useful or productive or

13:53

respectable as an adult. So

13:57

I think that we need to kind

13:59

of bring that into play. break that down. We've talked

14:01

about how in different cultures, they don't

14:03

even have the word leisure. They

14:05

have other words like living the good

14:07

life. It's a more holistic approach to

14:10

living in the world

14:12

where we don't have the segmentation between

14:14

needing to be productive through this thing

14:17

called labor or work and

14:19

this need to release and

14:21

have respite through this thing

14:23

called leisure or free

14:25

time or unobligated time. They don't even have

14:27

that kind of language. Wow. Can

14:30

you talk a bit more about how our understanding of leisure

14:32

varies across culture? It's interesting

14:35

because I've done some work with

14:37

folks who have recently migrated to

14:39

Canada and North America specifically because

14:41

we have such a different relationship

14:43

with work. I think folks also

14:45

have such a different relationship with leisure.

14:48

They feel that because we

14:50

have this hyper focus on work,

14:53

we need to create more bounded

14:55

spaces of leisure. They need those

14:57

spaces of leisure more

14:59

so than they need in

15:01

other areas of the world where leisure

15:04

is an integral part of

15:06

living and there's not that

15:08

differentiation and binary between work

15:10

and leisure. For example, there

15:13

are a lot of cultures who

15:15

take siestas and two-hour lunches and

15:18

they have more vacation time or

15:20

they have better leave policies

15:22

that are built into work. Just

15:25

taking leaves are not looked

15:27

down on in certain cultures.

15:29

We don't see this need

15:31

to devalue or really

15:33

stigmatize leisure in those cultures because

15:35

they see it as necessary in an

15:38

integral part of their lives. Yeah. Is

15:41

there a sense of how much leisure or play we

15:43

should be getting on a daily basis? I

15:48

wouldn't want to prescribe that

15:50

but certainly I've heard the

15:52

rule of thumb is eight hours of sleep,

15:54

eight hours of work and then

15:57

eight hours of leisure. Who really

15:59

gets that perfect split,

16:01

right? I don't know how

16:04

many people who sleep eight hours and I certainly know

16:06

a lot of people who work more than eight hours

16:08

a day and that obviously changes

16:10

on what the day of the week is

16:13

and what time of the year it is

16:15

and all that other stuff too and what

16:17

their relations are in their family and friendship

16:19

lives, right? So, you know, leisure isn't this

16:21

time that we say, okay, well, I'm clocking

16:24

out and everything else is unobligated.

16:26

I think there's a lot of gray area when it

16:28

comes to work and leisure, like, you

16:30

know, caregiving or caring. Is that leisurely time?

16:32

Is that work time? Could it be both?

16:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or even making a meal.

16:36

I mean, that could be leisure or it

16:39

could be an obligation or both in a

16:41

way, yeah. But what if

16:43

I'm sort of procrastinating or I'm stressing about

16:45

the future? I mean, I'm not technically working,

16:47

I'm not sleeping, but does that still count

16:49

as leisure? That's a good question.

16:51

I like to think of it as, you

16:53

know, unburdened, unobligated time. So, I feel

16:55

like that procrastination or, you

16:58

know, planning, while it could

17:00

maybe some take a lot of, you know, enjoyment

17:03

in that there are some folks that don't.

17:06

So, I think it's one of those things

17:08

too that some might call leisurely, but some

17:10

definitely do not. But I

17:12

do feel that planning or the

17:15

procrastination piece is very laborious for

17:17

us and it often

17:19

includes what we hope to do

17:21

for our career aspirations and work

17:23

and that often is quite laborious.

17:27

Are there good versus bad forms of

17:29

leisure? Well, yeah,

17:32

I guess so. Again, the

17:34

good and the bad is very subjective

17:36

for sure. But there are, you know,

17:39

authors in our field that talk about

17:41

this thing called dark leisure or purple

17:43

leisure, leisure that's not

17:45

necessarily considered the norm

17:47

or even socially acceptable for

17:50

all the, you know, true crime fans that

17:52

are out there. People will see people who

17:54

engage in those unlawful acts

17:56

as leisurely, the people who are committing

17:59

those things. things, when

18:01

they choose to do that in their

18:03

unobligated time, they've chosen to do a

18:05

crime or something like that.

18:07

But there's things like smoking

18:09

or vaping or other,

18:11

you know, what

18:13

we frame as unhelpful acts that can

18:16

be considered by the user to be

18:18

very leisurely. You

18:21

can connect over and spend time

18:23

outside and do all of these

18:25

things if you're smoking, for example.

18:27

But that's, while it's unhelpful,

18:29

it's still kind of this movement

18:31

towards creating space for oneself

18:33

by the person who is taking up

18:36

that activity. So it's

18:38

that really delicate juggle

18:40

or that interesting juggle of freely

18:42

chosen activity, but is it also

18:44

a helpful? So is that considered

18:46

bad? I don't know. It's

18:49

really up to the person who's engaging in

18:51

that act, right? Yeah, interesting. Do

18:54

you think we really know how to have free

18:56

time anymore, at least in North America? I mean,

18:58

I'm thinking about how so many of us just

19:00

end up on our phone scrolling away the evening

19:02

on social media, or we have these tiny little

19:04

leisure snacks in the day without really decompressing, or

19:06

we have a work culture where you don't just,

19:09

you know, go out for a coffee

19:11

with your colleague and sit and talk and enjoy

19:13

the good life. Yeah, that's

19:15

I love that phrase that you

19:17

use, like leisure snacks, like little

19:20

bits and pieces of leisure, just to

19:22

sustain ourselves and sustain our soul. I don't

19:25

know. I think that again, that is an individual

19:28

thing. I feel like we have

19:30

things like burnout, and we have things

19:32

like exhaustion and, you

19:34

know, the need to push

19:37

through to get to this other

19:39

side. And I think we need

19:42

to do as a society better

19:44

at recognizing those early signs to

19:46

that need for fulfillment, sooner

19:49

than burnout, sooner than exhaustion,

19:51

sooner than the weekend, because

19:54

we as humans are complicated

19:56

beings, right? We need that

19:58

sustenance throughout the day and

20:00

throughout our lives, it can't just come in

20:03

our golden years or in the

20:05

evenings or the weekends. It has to

20:08

be in moderation throughout our day

20:10

and in our lives. So I think we

20:12

just seem to be more sensitive to our

20:14

need for leisure for sure. Yeah. And

20:17

just finally, what would you suggest for anyone

20:19

struggling to get into that kind of

20:21

flow state or escape the mindset that

20:23

values their working self more than their

20:25

playful self? Are there ways to connect

20:27

with your leisure loving self? Yeah.

20:30

I think about the things that brought

20:32

me joy when I was a child,

20:34

like picking up a paintbrush that you

20:37

haven't or like having a

20:39

chat with your friends that wasn't bounded

20:41

by the start of your next meeting.

20:44

What is that thing that allows you

20:46

to be completely connected

20:48

to something yourself or another person?

20:50

How do we get back to

20:52

that? And I think we have

20:54

to remember when those moments

20:57

of passion or pure joy really

20:59

were a central part of your

21:02

life. And often that comes back to childhood,

21:04

you know, where we felt really unobligated in

21:06

a lot of different ways, perhaps

21:09

some more than others. But

21:11

what is that spark that brings you

21:13

joy? And how do we, you know,

21:15

make that more centered in our lives?

21:17

That's a hard question, because you're right,

21:19

I don't think we do have or

21:21

make the space for ourselves to explore

21:24

that. But it does take

21:26

practice like anything else. I think we

21:28

place so much emphasis on cultivating

21:30

our craft for careers or

21:32

cultivating craft for passion projects

21:35

and that type of thing. But when

21:37

it comes to taking a breath

21:39

and not having, you know, the

21:41

next minute or minutes scripted for

21:43

ourselves, I think that's where the

21:45

real challenge is. So for minutes

21:47

scripted for ourselves, I think that's where

21:50

the real challenge is. So in some

21:52

ways leisure is laborious and figuring out

21:54

who we are as leisure

21:56

beings as well. Yeah, it's so interesting

21:58

that you say about that. that sort of taking

22:01

the time to do that, like I find for

22:03

myself on my walks to work, I have to

22:06

remind myself that this is actually an opportunity

22:08

to do something that I really like doing

22:10

and like that I like looking at trees

22:12

or whatever that it's not just about marching

22:15

to the office as quickly as I possibly

22:17

can. It is that

22:19

bringing to mind the importance of paying attention

22:21

to the pleasure that you're getting out of

22:23

that experience. Mindfulness

22:26

is really important in

22:29

that experience too. We are

22:32

able to access that flow experience

22:34

when we're attuned to what we're

22:36

thinking about and the thing that

22:38

we're focused on doing. So just

22:41

making sure that we have space in

22:43

our very cluttered minds to really attend

22:45

to the thing that we love and

22:47

brings us the most joy. Kim,

22:49

thanks so much for your insights on this. Oh,

22:51

my pleasure. Thanks for having me today. Kim

22:54

Lopez is an assistant professor in the Department

22:57

of Recreation and Leisure Studies at the University

22:59

of Waterloo. In

23:19

the Spark Archives 2020,

23:22

Regan Mandrick, professor of computer

23:24

science at University of Saskatchewan.

23:56

Thank you. and

24:00

how we learn to graciously win. Those are

24:02

all these kind of life skills that games help

24:04

teach us. And then the last one is really

24:06

just about recovery from stress. We know

24:09

that stress is a major part of our

24:11

life and the source of stress really is

24:13

when we feel like we don't have control

24:15

over our environment. That's when stress really

24:17

starts to elevate and gaming has really shown

24:19

in many different ways to be a good

24:21

way to recover from stress. I

24:25

think people tend to think about games and have

24:27

the stereotypical idea of, a

24:30

16 year old boy playing Call of Duty

24:32

for 12 hours straight in the basement. And

24:34

that's not really what games are. Games

24:36

span everything from those time

24:38

filler games that you play on your phone. When

24:40

we actually ask people, are you a gamer? A

24:43

lot of people say no, but when we ask

24:45

them about, do you play Candy Crush?

24:47

Do you play Sudoku? Do you play Words with

24:49

Friends? And they're, oh yeah, I'd say that regularly.

24:51

So getting into gaming doesn't necessarily mean that you

24:53

have to invest in a expensive

24:55

console or a fancy computer. You can

24:58

really just sign up on your smartphone

25:00

and, or similar and see a

25:02

lot of the benefits. Hi,

25:16

I'm Rachel Hampton, the host of in case you

25:18

missed it, Slade's podcast about internet culture.

25:20

It's a show for people who

25:22

have a healthy relationship with social

25:24

media made by people who really,

25:26

really don't. Twice a

25:28

week, our show's board was trending at the top

25:30

of your feeds, investigates the ghosts of

25:32

internet paths, and

25:36

generally helps you sound like the smartest person in

25:38

your group chat. What do you think about it?

25:41

You can find us by searching Icymi,

25:44

wherever you get your podcast. That

25:46

is Icymi, the podcast that

25:48

is extremely online. So you don't have

25:50

to be. I'm

25:53

Nora Young and this time on Spark, another

25:55

in our occasional series, Being Human Now. That's

25:58

where we look at facets of human. that we

26:00

once took to be distinctly ours, and

26:03

how they're changing in today's technological moment.

26:06

This time, play, and how our leisure

26:08

and play activities change the more

26:10

digital we are. And really? Can

26:12

we talk about play without taking a little

26:14

trip to North America's playground? Yep,

26:18

I'm talking about Las Vegas,

26:20

city of over-the-top fountains, casinos,

26:22

shows, fake international monuments, and

26:25

now... mind-blowing, location-based

26:27

entertainment experiences. Location-Based

26:30

Entertainment Experiences, or

26:33

LBEs. My

26:35

name is Winston Fisher. I

26:37

am CEO of Area 15.

26:40

We are an immersive entertainment

26:42

district. In Las Vegas,

26:45

which I think most would argue is

26:47

already itself an immersive entertainment district.

26:50

But Area 15 is like a

26:52

funhouse within that larger funhouse. Picture

26:56

a 200,000 square

26:58

foot building. Kind of like a mall, but

27:01

I hate the term mall, because

27:03

we are so much more than a mall. So,

27:05

not a mall. But a

27:07

really big, mall-like building. Inside,

27:11

everything is neon, like you're inside

27:13

the movie Tron. When you enter,

27:15

we have detail on the

27:17

left and the right. What we call

27:20

retail is experiences, such

27:22

as meow-wolf, or axe-growing, or

27:24

a arcade. Then we have

27:26

event space in the back.

27:28

There's music events, corporate events,

27:31

yoga, you name it. Things going on all

27:33

the time, and then a series of really

27:35

cool, fun things to do, like an overhead

27:38

power supply where you walk through the door,

27:40

or a ride club liftoff that takes you

27:42

up and down. We have

27:44

augmented reality games, VR

27:47

experiences. If it

27:49

sounds like a lot, it

27:51

is. This universe that we've created,

27:54

sort of like the multiverse came

27:56

to life in Las Vegas, is

27:58

really a platform. business for

28:01

storytelling. A physical experience

28:03

but with a digital overlay. For

28:06

us digital is becoming more and

28:08

more about customizing your digital experience

28:11

and how do you consume that

28:13

digital experience that you've customized when

28:15

you're there physically. We do

28:17

AR but with write yourself into the

28:19

story of area 15

28:21

and then how does that become a

28:23

customized AR game that you can play

28:26

when you come there. All

28:29

over the world the real one not the smaller version

28:31

in Vegas location-based experiences

28:34

like area 15 have been popping up.

28:36

From Dubai to England brands are partnering

28:39

with entertainment companies to create

28:41

massive immersive experiences that are

28:43

part retail part circus all

28:46

to capitalize on the changing

28:48

entertainment desires of consumers. The

28:51

old world was spectator the new

28:53

world is participant and that for

28:55

us is things are touchable in

28:57

the most basic way participatory with

28:59

your friends. It's

29:02

shared experience shared energy.

29:05

People go through Meow Wolf alone clearly

29:08

but they go through with groups

29:10

a lot. When you go to

29:12

a music show or a concert

29:14

or a rave you're a participant

29:16

in your experience. You're hoping define

29:18

what your experience will feel and

29:20

look like while you're there.

29:22

So it's a participatory

29:24

experience it's not a walk-in-buy

29:27

ticket we post you through you do

29:29

this. You can enjoy it almost however

29:31

you want. I

29:34

do get the idea of participation.

29:36

I mean we've had participatory theater

29:38

for ages and doesn't play require

29:40

active participation. Watching a movie

29:42

can be entertaining or moving but I

29:45

wouldn't call it play. Still

29:47

what's the balance between enabling play

29:49

with technology without tipping over into

29:51

blinding techno spectacle that takes away

29:53

from the humanity of play. Is

30:00

the author a pen? No,

30:02

the pen is the pen, right? It's

30:04

only as good as who's writing it. So

30:06

technology is a pen. It's a tool to

30:08

tell the story. That

30:10

said, things like how you do do

30:13

integration of projection mapping,

30:15

hologram technology, how there

30:17

are pioneers like Disney

30:20

and Universal, changing how

30:22

people will be consuming AR, consuming

30:25

hologram technology. It's amazing.

30:28

I love that stuff. I think

30:30

AI is a game changer in

30:32

terms of the ability for now

30:35

small companies to be competitive

30:37

against large companies. Because

30:40

it probably would have taken, I

30:43

don't know how many billions of dollars to

30:45

talk about having an interactive comic book that

30:47

people can write themselves into and that you

30:50

can track all these wonderful things. That's

30:52

off the shelf technology now. So

30:55

technology is an AI, are

30:57

changing how you consume it.

31:00

Tracking people, I think is really interesting. I

31:02

don't mean in a bad way, but that

31:04

idea of individualizing an

31:07

experience as somebody walks

31:09

up and talk about

31:11

digital physical. If you create a character

31:13

in the digital world, can that character

31:15

live with you in the physical world?

31:18

And it's getting better, right? It's not

31:20

getting novel. It's actually gonna become much

31:23

more seamless. That

31:26

overlay will just become, whether it's

31:28

your phone or RFID, will

31:31

be integrated into, even I think it's

31:33

gonna be integrated into, frankly, modern technology.

31:35

When you go up to the kiosk,

31:38

you should have an individual

31:40

relationship with your digital guide

31:43

to the space. That's

31:45

all here and coming. So

31:49

what kind of impact does Winston think these

31:51

kinds of technologies are having on the way

31:53

we think about play and how we engage

31:55

in play? You know, it's

31:58

opening our minds to a- a lot

32:00

of different things is making

32:02

us jaded because you know something

32:04

is that's fast and we expect more. I'd

32:07

say that consumers attention is harder, right?

32:09

It's always the next thing, the next

32:11

tick-tock, the next this. But

32:13

if you have really good storytelling that

32:16

is the counteracting to the you

32:18

can update the story to keep

32:20

emotionally connected. All of

32:22

that says the physical is so

32:25

important because we are disconnected. There

32:27

are more Yelp warriors today than

32:30

we can accounts. There are people

32:32

who are sharing constantly

32:34

and you see things

32:37

on your phone but nothing, nothing

32:39

replaces that feeling

32:41

of all being together and

32:43

celebrating and feeling that energy

32:45

and shared experience. So if

32:47

you can harness that digital,

32:50

harness the technology but make

32:52

sure that you have emotional

32:54

connection for how people are

32:56

consuming it, it gets

32:58

really interesting and it's timeless, right?

33:00

You're not reinventing that people like

33:03

to feel, smell, taste, jump up

33:05

and down, be scared, a little

33:08

bit, have an adrenaline going, hug

33:10

each other and celebrate together. That's

33:13

true. Winston

33:19

Fisher is the CEO of the

33:21

immersive experiential entertainment district area

33:23

15 in Las Vegas. You

33:44

are listening to Spark. All right,

33:46

no one go on the phone. For the next

33:48

half hour, I have to go on the internet.

33:51

This is Spark from CVC.

33:56

I'm Nora Young and today we're talking about play

33:58

as part of our occasional series. being

34:00

human now. Play can

34:02

mean different things to different people, of course, but

34:04

for most of us, much of our leisure

34:06

time is spent online. And

34:08

that's led to an area of study

34:11

called digital leisure. Digital

34:13

leisure, the way I look at it

34:15

and others who are trying to create

34:17

a sort of a pushback against normative

34:19

notions is how you play

34:21

with the rules of the game. And

34:23

that particularly through

34:26

the digital space that we

34:28

have. This is Pyle

34:30

Arora. She's a digital anthropologist and

34:32

a professor of inclusive AI cultures

34:34

at Utrecht University. We

34:37

spoke to Pyle in 2019 about her

34:39

book The Next Billion Users, Digital

34:41

Life Beyond the West. In it, she explored

34:43

the way young users in a number of

34:45

countries in the global south actually

34:48

use the internet as a way

34:50

to counter preconceived notions in the west about

34:52

how these users behave or should

34:55

behave online. More

34:57

recently, she was a field researcher

34:59

in Brazil for the UNHCR, the

35:01

UN's refugee agency. That produced a

35:03

report called the Digital Leisure Divide

35:05

and the Forceably Displaced. In

35:08

the last decade, I've been looking

35:10

at forcibly displaced populations, whether it's

35:13

in Brazil, Bangladesh and elsewhere. And

35:15

one of the fundamental

35:17

features that have crossed across board

35:20

is that the way in which

35:22

they use digital media is not

35:24

utility driven as much as it's

35:27

digital leisure driven, because these are

35:29

fundamental spaces for self actualization and

35:31

feeds into the aspirations

35:33

for a better future. The

35:36

report focuses on the digital

35:39

experiences of Venezuelan refugees. In

35:42

the last few years, there's been a

35:44

lot of disruptions in Venezuela, which has

35:46

led to a massive exodus, you

35:48

know, of a lot of marginalized populations

35:50

from there to the

35:53

borders of Brazil, seeking for

35:55

a good life. And many of

35:57

them have also been forcibly displaced. So

36:00

it's a combination of both, and these

36:02

are patterns that are not unique to

36:04

this context, but it's being experienced everywhere

36:06

in the world, right, in many ways.

36:09

So some interesting patterns

36:11

on top of that is they

36:14

are substantively young, and

36:16

they're driven by aspirations for

36:18

a better life, and they are

36:21

much more adept at using digital

36:23

media tools in ways

36:25

that haven't been captured. And

36:29

yet, when it comes to how aid agencies try

36:31

to meet the digital needs of

36:33

refugees and displaced populations, they

36:35

seem to ignore the importance of

36:38

play and focus exclusively on more

36:40

utilitarian uses of digital devices and

36:42

platforms. There's

36:44

a sort of divide between the North

36:46

and South as, well, they have

36:49

different usage patterns

36:52

because they come from such

36:54

extraordinarily different contexts. And

36:57

this is a sort of a perpetuation

36:59

of thinking and practice that seeps into

37:01

policy and design. But

37:03

in many ways, you know, my research has

37:06

shown on the contrary, despite

37:08

these extraordinarily different contexts,

37:11

many of them are driven by the

37:13

same kind of things that you and

37:15

I are driven by, which is they're

37:17

seeking for love and companionship, kids

37:19

obsessed by, you know, games,

37:22

and parents, even in the settlements,

37:24

they're like, I cannot control these

37:26

kids. We have such limited data,

37:28

and all they do is play

37:30

games. And that sounds like any

37:32

parent who would be complaining in,

37:34

like, you know, Boston or Amsterdam,

37:36

wherever. So, of course,

37:38

the consumption of sexual content, you know,

37:41

I mean, after all, a lot of

37:43

them are teenagers and they're trying to

37:45

discover their sexuality, you know, menstruating for

37:48

the first time. All these

37:50

things, and they are looking for outlets of

37:52

how do they understand their bodies, their drives.

37:55

And so all this is very

37:57

extraordinarily mundane. But what's interesting is

37:59

that the interesting is that

38:01

we did not allow that

38:03

to enter into the imagination

38:05

of the entire population in

38:07

the global south because we

38:10

either over romanticize them as

38:12

virtuous beings, you

38:14

know, who somehow will use

38:17

digital media to be very

38:19

utilitarian, you know, like they

38:21

will learn math and English and

38:23

find jobs and even chemistry. I

38:25

mean, you know, the popular hole in

38:28

the wall project from a decade

38:30

ago, like was really celebrated. In fact,

38:32

one or 10 awards for saying

38:34

that, you know what, kids will

38:36

just run to computers

38:38

and learn chemistry. And this

38:41

has been proven even Bertrand

38:43

Russell when he established this

38:45

experimental school in the 1920s, he came up with this idea that, oh,

38:50

if kids would just be given free reign,

38:52

how they would learn all this knowledge. But

38:54

in the end of the day, you know,

38:56

after six months, he closed shop and said,

38:58

well, given a choice between climbing a tree

39:01

and, you know, doing math, you climb a

39:03

tree. Right. You know,

39:05

I think that's something beautiful is

39:07

that, well, there's a humanity shared

39:09

humanity here. And so we

39:12

have to understand that. But of course,

39:14

what stories they say on TikTok, what

39:17

kinds of experiences they narrate, what

39:19

are their struggles are, of course,

39:21

unique to their experiences based on

39:23

their conditions and content? Right.

39:26

Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of

39:28

the assumptions that aid agencies have about displaced

39:30

people and how that affects their approach to

39:32

the kind of digital interventions they do in

39:35

those communities? Well, one is,

39:37

of course, like I said, very utility

39:39

driven, that they would be doing the

39:41

good things online. Right. And God forbid,

39:44

if they do something which is, you

39:46

know, not good, like

39:48

watch porn, they cannot justify

39:50

to funders that, oh, we

39:53

managed to get them connectivity

39:55

so they can watch porn.

39:57

Right. And So they

39:59

absolutely. We need to disregard

40:01

that the they Also there's so

40:04

much fear that oh they're gonna

40:06

do something which is unpalatable under

40:08

their jurisdiction. so a much more

40:10

surveyed and police and the expectations

40:13

are much more about you need

40:15

to do something useful and you

40:17

need to speak in developmental term

40:20

So it's a catch twenty two

40:22

so that refugee populations are smart

40:24

enough to. Catch on and

40:26

the feed into these that

40:28

a fictional narratives. That then quick

40:31

gets written up so I think

40:33

they didn't suffer a deep complicity

40:35

of effect reading and particular system

40:37

so at the flow of continuation

40:39

of funding author was so disturbing

40:41

is the kind of questioning that

40:43

one tends the receive an often

40:45

well meaning by the way Just

40:48

recently I was at an interdisciplinary

40:50

workshop and of getting a top

40:52

and a woman who had been

40:54

in the field. And agency some

40:56

more than thirty years said. you

40:58

know I'm having a rule. morals

41:01

truther here. Because I've been

41:03

really trying to connect the and

41:05

connected for so long and now

41:08

I wonder: is it right for

41:10

me to do that? This is

41:12

what am I doing. I'm bringing

41:14

all these people on line so

41:16

they can be extracted so they

41:19

can be oppressed by corporations. so

41:21

they can be abused by corporations

41:23

and I will be held responsible.

41:25

And you know that the fact

41:28

that it's a choice whether to

41:30

bring them online and not vs.

41:32

Connectivity being a right. right

41:35

yeah and so i think this

41:37

is a difficult terrain there in

41:39

various so he used to hearing

41:41

all the you know negative about

41:43

being on line that would be

41:46

a forgetting is that does this

41:48

conversation happening right now in many

41:50

parts of the would something like

41:52

two plus two billion people who

41:55

are in some way forcibly you

41:57

know displaced and growing exponentially because

41:59

of climate crisis and inequality

42:01

and war is that

42:03

we are even asking these questions

42:06

because nobody would even

42:08

dream of imagining us asking this

42:10

question of, oh, Google is terrible.

42:13

Open AI is terrible. So let's all get

42:15

off the internet. Right? I

42:17

mean, like that would not even be

42:19

seriously considered what we are trying to

42:21

focus on for at least users in the

42:24

rest, you know, on one of

42:26

a better term is better guardrails,

42:29

you know, more accountability, responsible

42:31

design. These are the kinds

42:33

of conversations. So why can't

42:35

we have a more unified

42:37

conversation across board in

42:40

cooperating all populations? So

42:42

are the assumptions that you're describing about

42:45

kind of the

42:47

sort of worthy things that people ought

42:49

to be using the technology for, are

42:51

those assumptions also shared by the tech

42:54

companies that are building the technology that's

42:56

essential to digital ledger? No,

42:59

actually on the contrary, if

43:01

any entity is most open

43:03

to these user groups, shall

43:06

I say, our tech

43:08

companies actually, and for their own vested

43:10

interest, because we are in an AI

43:12

age, we are in a data driven

43:14

economy. And the fact is 90% of

43:17

young people live outside the West. Because

43:19

India and China alone constitute the majority

43:21

of users and they haven't even

43:24

reached market saturation. Sub

43:26

Saharan Africa is the fastest growing

43:28

young population group in the world.

43:30

And by 2040, they will become

43:32

the majority. So, you know, including

43:34

the fact that these populations, mobile

43:37

phones that have enabled them to

43:39

come online, and be active and

43:41

shape the internet in ways, right,

43:43

that has been unforeseeable in the

43:45

past, we've really gone past the

43:47

whole digital divide narrative. So

43:50

they are very excited with this

43:52

prospect because more data allows them

43:55

to build stronger AI. And

43:57

in the AI arms race, right,

44:00

it's all the matter of who

44:02

has more data. So companies are

44:04

enthusiastic about it and also they

44:07

recognize digital leisure as fundamental drivers

44:11

in generating data. In fact,

44:13

a company Jio, right,

44:16

which is an Indian

44:18

based company funded by

44:20

Reliance, this multi-billionaire corporation

44:22

and headed by Ambani

44:25

basically came up

44:27

with a marketing principle for

44:29

their new telecom services, particularly

44:31

targeting marginalized resource constrained young

44:34

people. And it was the

44:36

ABCD principle, because what

44:39

they did was just look at the

44:41

data of what people were, you

44:43

know, pivoting it for and recognize and much

44:45

of what they were using the data was

44:48

for four things, astrology,

44:51

Hollywood, cricket and devotion

44:53

content. And so they

44:55

said, if you can tap into those

44:57

four buckets, you know, which make up

44:59

almost 80% of the content, we've

45:02

got these people. So that's

45:04

really underlining it. Of course,

45:06

that goes with the thing

45:08

is that there's a different

45:10

conversation with corporations is what's

45:12

their responsibility towards these populations.

45:14

And this is a conversation

45:16

happening right now because of

45:18

open AI is, you know, what

45:20

constitutes a fair value, particularly for

45:23

the so called public data

45:25

commons, you know, being usurped by

45:27

private entities, how does value

45:29

get re shifted to the

45:32

public domain, because it is being

45:34

extracted for private profiteering, etc.

45:36

But that's again, another conversation. But

45:38

like I said, at least they

45:41

are, you know, pivoting. And the question is,

45:43

are they also using the data to

45:46

build tools, which will

45:48

work for these populations? And that's

45:50

a different conversation. Yeah.

46:15

Nora Young calling just wanted to

46:17

make sure. You knew. We

46:19

started as usual time

46:21

today. Hundred questions. Are

46:25

hundred questions I don't believe

46:27

successor actually the most important

46:29

greatest thing on the internet

46:32

whole on. I'm a

46:34

dining sir. I'm a coffee table. I'm

46:38

always thought. The As A coffee tens

46:40

or hundreds. Question: You're

46:42

missing the spark from your friends

46:44

that Cbc Radio's. I

46:51

know a young to the on spark.

46:53

We're talking about play and leisure right

46:55

now. My guess is Pile Aurora and

46:57

Netherlands based Digital Anthropologists for research focuses

46:59

on digital use among. Populations in the

47:01

global south and marginalized groups.

47:05

I mention that in this you an A. Or

47:07

report you talk to Venezuelan refugees

47:09

and Brazil either. Some other examples

47:11

that you have of the ways. That forcibly

47:13

displaced communities are using

47:15

digital technologies specifically for

47:17

leisure activities. Well, the

47:19

other major rise is

47:21

the creator economy. Which

47:24

also ties to the the way

47:26

in which digital payments are being

47:28

exercise san how content of the

47:30

monitor itself say like a New

47:32

York now you know the ideal

47:34

of a data as currency I

47:37

think makes people spiral into some

47:39

that have led the time for

47:41

i say as a like oh

47:43

my god how could he possibly

47:45

you know allow that to happen

47:47

but in many parts of the

47:50

world that such he empowerment because

47:52

if you don't have. Anything else

47:54

data is something that you can

47:56

exchange for value for yourself The

47:58

to have access to data right?

48:01

So I think it is really

48:03

important to understand in relation to

48:05

what right and also the choices

48:07

people make are driven by their

48:09

own context and condition. So going

48:11

to the create a economy in

48:14

the last few years the pandemic

48:16

has. Really impact. Third,

48:18

many. Parts of the world and

48:20

even though Be seem likely have moved

48:23

on, it has destroyed a lot of

48:25

conventional and those trees because he couldn't

48:27

steal fluids. The one as privilege or

48:29

like York to get a bailout money

48:32

or like in the Us in many

48:34

ways right? that the one getting these

48:36

paychecks some many of. These small

48:38

mom and pop shops and entrepreneurs

48:41

just lost a lot of funding.

48:43

And so is this an easy

48:46

way to get online and try

48:48

to monetize and a little to

48:51

build some kind of alternative form

48:53

of livelihood. And you me that

48:55

happening? A particularly amongst refugee population

48:58

that don't need of physical space

49:00

second offer so seen as he

49:02

can operate on the goals basically

49:05

right. They can even make their

49:07

own struggle and narrative part of

49:10

their contents tree. So leafy, a

49:12

lot of.happening They. Whole genre

49:14

even On to create a

49:16

economy right on and leveraging

49:18

on the chase. a poverty

49:21

on but. In. A different

49:23

kind of the it's a fresh

49:25

poverty for not only people feel

49:27

depressed. Read more about. Look at

49:29

me, I'm in a village and I'm

49:31

dancing to beyond say and you know

49:33

in my rags. And yes it is

49:36

a set of a disturbing narrative but

49:38

it's also playing. That said, us audience.

49:41

So. You can get some

49:43

kind of support. Financially right?

49:46

So there's a lot of

49:48

thought tactics. salary sales survival.

49:50

The each goes into. What?

49:53

Leisure is which he knows he

49:55

can look into the history of

49:57

leisure practice. It has always a.

49:59

Deeply. Political. I mean,

50:01

you know, from Nineteen Hundreds?

50:03

even the notion of. Coming.

50:06

Up with a public park

50:08

where the New York com

50:10

shanghai away any of these

50:12

poor, it is tied so

50:15

deeply into access food. Different

50:17

populations in allow and different

50:19

populations to in have that

50:21

common faith. And. That was

50:23

a deeply radical act you

50:25

know of democracy. Here. So

50:28

there's this, sort of have to call. Use

50:30

that you're talking about t top of

50:32

it about some of the other opportunities

50:34

the present themselves to users when they're

50:37

able to be online and and be

50:39

connected recreationally. Yeah so far the

50:41

side benefit is learning in different

50:43

languages and a little connecting with

50:45

people from very different cultures a

50:48

building their social kept on beyond

50:50

their very small world that the

50:52

often times and have a tang

50:54

maybe the the never leave their

50:56

slum or maybe the never leave

50:58

their at because rv to avoid

51:01

the average person thinks of these

51:03

refugees will just sort of the

51:05

recent is a particular context and

51:07

then they'll get settled down often

51:09

times. As much time generation this

51:11

is a home the stay in

51:14

the settlement and then they chewing

51:16

the are born there So it's

51:18

in a sense it's like are

51:20

forced to gated community right still

51:23

in those contacts right? It is

51:25

pretty important that the already to

51:27

think he about the future of

51:29

as. Being very much and

51:32

you know embedded in these contacts

51:34

right? You. Report

51:36

for the U N H E R

51:38

came up a couple years ago now

51:40

and I'm wondering if he's seen a

51:42

change in how aid agencies approach digital

51:44

technology used for for displaced people. So

51:47

I think it's a struggle, particularly

51:50

because what they have is evidence

51:52

of a graveyard of apps. Vickers.

51:55

what they've done is like well

51:57

okay the understand the driven by

52:00

leisure, for instance, but we

52:02

need to do something which

52:04

is utility driven. So let's

52:06

do edutainment apps. Let's do

52:08

the mobile health and edutainment,

52:10

anything and entertainment, right? So

52:12

combining these forces and

52:14

then they die a quick death because

52:17

the project gets over, people

52:19

download these apps and then the next

52:21

grand cycle starts. And so I think

52:24

one of the things is let's stop

52:26

trying to push people to going somewhere

52:28

else, but recognize that yes,

52:31

they are inhabiting some common

52:33

spaces like Instagram and

52:36

Facebook and how do

52:38

we then leverage on these spaces,

52:40

however we may perceive

52:42

them to be toxic, right? But

52:45

these are their realities that this

52:47

is a space which is easy to

52:50

enter. It has a

52:52

staying power because it's not going

52:54

to change anytime soon. And

52:56

how do you build infrastructures and institutions,

52:58

which is like no small feat because

53:01

we also are seeing

53:03

conversations like Facebook against Australia

53:05

where it says, you know what, we're

53:08

getting out of here because you

53:10

try to push us to paying

53:12

publishers and so we're

53:14

going to get out and actually technically they

53:17

can't just like Elon Musk can say tomorrow,

53:19

I'm not going to let Ukraine use

53:22

with my satellite. So these are the

53:24

dangers we have is that today, the

53:26

digital leisure spaces that

53:28

are fundamental to self-actualization

53:31

of humanity lies

53:33

and is built on not just the platforms

53:36

with the very infrastructures which are

53:38

privately owned, you know, right?

53:40

Which is underground water cables,

53:42

which are fueling data

53:45

centers, all this is

53:47

privatized and satellites. And

53:50

so these are the kinds of conversations

53:52

which are beyond the scope in some

53:55

sense of a lot of these

53:57

agencies, isn't it? Yeah, Pyle,

53:59

thanks so much for your time. insights on this. Yeah,

54:01

of course. And thanks for the invite.

54:03

It's a very important conversation. I'm glad

54:05

you're hosting us. Pile

54:08

Aurora is a digital anthropologist and

54:11

professor of inclusive AI cultures at

54:13

Utrecht University. You've

54:19

been listening to Spark. The show is made by Michelle

54:22

Parisi, Samri Ihannes, Megan Carty, and

54:24

me, Nora Young, and

54:26

by Kimberly Lopez, Winston Fisher, and

54:28

Pile Aurora. And from the

54:31

Spark Archive, Regan Mandryk. Subscribe

54:33

to Spark on the free CBC Listen app

54:35

or your favorite podcast app. I'm Nora Young.

54:37

See you soon. For

55:12

more CBC podcasts, go

55:14

to cbc.ca/ podcasts.