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Michael: Welcome to speak the truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church in counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are back, except the studio is a little different. I'm actually in Salem, Oregon continuing some of our podcast at the made to minister conference, and the conference is the god of all comfort. And, man, what a truth that is. And I've got with us pastor Justin Green. He has been on our podcast a few times. And before we hit the record button, we were just reminiscing on this was back. His first appearance on the podcast was in 2019 episode 30, and I'll link that in the show notes so that y'all can go back and listen to that. And I would encourage you to do that because, Justin, again and when we start getting into the topic of our conversation here, you'll begin to be reminded of the things that he's saying now that you'll hear just a a little refinement of that in in episode 30 in different things. But just that fire for the gospel and evangelism. And with that, no further ado, Justin, how are you doing, brother? Justin: I'm doing well, man. Thanks for having me on. I'm glad to see you again. Michael: Yeah. Likewise. It's always a pleasure to see you. I was just, telling Justin how sometimes I feel that where we are in Texas is like Rome in the new testament, and they're out here like he's like Paul and and ministering to the gentiles. And just all the work that the lord's doing out here is is, is amazing. But in this particular episode, what we wanted to focus on is really just seeing biblical counseling as an evangelistic And biblical counseling, historically, it hasn't really been viewed as an evangelistic ministry. Justin: Yeah. I think when you and I had talked about this before, people look at counseling, and I think churches have looked at counseling historically as just a little something that we can also do. It runs alongside other ministries, but we honestly didn't even value it for a long time as highly as you would youth ministry or children's ministry. It's not an essential need. We would look at evangelism completely separate, but I think that the gospel goes forward in our counseling ministry as strongly as any ministry we've ever done, including our, outreach, evangelism, our stuff that we would do, short term missions. We're seeing the gospel go forward in our counseling ministry in a profound way, and it's an essential part of what a church does. Michael: Yeah. It really is. And and to that point, I appreciate the process of that. Yeah. Because it it is to some degree understandable why given our church model, right, the way that we do ministry or philosophy of ministry or methodology, so on and so forth. Really, counseling doesn't fit within the Sunday scope. Justin: Yeah. Yeah. It's not a Sunday school class. I think that's actually one of the gifts over here when you talk about and there's some benefits, by the way, to being in Texas. We can list them all. Yeah. Michael: No. I tell you. Yeah. No. Justin: Anyone from Texas right now is probably gonna say amen to that. Yeah. Michael: Hey. I love my Texas. I love my Justin: Texas. For sure. But the there's a benefit to being out here in that almost when you're gathering as a church, it's just stripped down. They're they're not expecting your Sunday model. They're not even sure what to expect. They're coming because somebody told them they could hear about God. Yeah. Michael: They really don't have a reference point. Justin: No. And there's no there's a Sunday model in part. Yeah. You gotta have some worship and you gotta have somebody teach. But other than those functional pieces, a lot of churches look different than the standard And a lot of our ministry, most of our disciples And a lot of our ministry most of our discipleship stuff happens outside of Sunday. Our parking lot will be full throughout the week because of ministries that we don't see as secondary. That's just an extension of the family doing life together. And, yeah, we get permission to counsel Mhmm. As seriously as we do any other ministry in the church, and we think it's in one of the key ways that we're seeing people come to Christ. Michael: Yeah. And so with that, Justin, what would you say, again, to that point? Most pastors, don't think that counseling is an evangelistic thing, and so the idea would be to refer people out. Yeah. So what would you say to pastors and churches who aren't convinced that it is an evangelistic ministry? Justin: Man, so what is the plague of our day? That's the question. I was thinking about this when it'd given me a different reset for what we might be talking about here, but I was reminded of this quote from emperor Julian. One author says this, that the writing in the 4th century, he regretted the progress of Christianity because it pulled people away from the Roman gods. And he said atheism, which is what he called the Christian faith, has been specially advanced through the loving service rendered to strangers and through the care for the burial of the dead. It's a scandal that there's not a single Jew who is a beggar, that the godless Galileans care not only for their own poor, but for ours as well, while those who belong to us look in vain for help that we should render them. So Woah. Julian the apostate. Michael: What an observation. Justin: Yeah. He's looking at it, but he's saying during the plague, these guys are taking care of our people far better than we do. So we we don't have 2019, we did have a plague. But I I'm not confident that the church handled that as well as they could. Yeah. But I think that there's an epidemic in the United States in particular. I would say that it's worldwide. But in the United States in particular, there's a mental health crisis. Michael: Especially here specifically locally. In in Justin: in the northwest, it's you can't step out your door without running into somebody who's battling. Yeah. And what are Christians to do? You have an opportunity right now not only to minister to yours because it tells us, like we were talking about in Ephesians, you're gonna do good first to the household of faith. Yeah. Take care of your people. But one of the greatest gifts that we as believers can give is the knowledge of where you stand with the living God, how to order your life according to godly principles, which it turns out is the best way to live life. And when people get their their life right because their heart is right with Jesus, it transforms them. And and they their entire world is different. Their hope is different. There's a delight that's in them, and all their extended family says, I don't know what happened there, but I need it. And they start they show up at church. And so the gospel going into one neighbor who is just overwhelmed by life, and you share the gospel with them and say, hey. You can take it or leave it, but here's what God has showed me is a way to order my life and let me walk with you as you go through whatever crisis you're facing. But let me show you what God says about the crisis that you're in right now and how He can meet that need. People are giving their life to Christ and say that I I haven't found any other place where there's peace. And when they're settled, their extended family also says, I also don't have peace. And we have a gospel conversation that has a real center of a transformed life, and that's what they're looking for. Everything else is just theory, conjecture, and we get siloed in our thinking, and there's an angry society. It pulls away from all of those other secondary discussions, and it centers it on Jesus and the peace that he can bring, And it's profound. Michael: No. That is. And and I think sometimes to that point too, and obviously, you guys are experiencing it out here, and there would be some other some other factors along with that. And going back to talking about Julian, in in some respect, it's state it's 2 worlds. Right? Justin: Yeah. Michael: It's state versus Christ in in that sense. How was John 13 3435 demonstrated? That's what Julian observed. Yeah. They will know you're my disciples by the way that you have love for one another. Justin: Yep. And by extension, he's saying our all of our poor, all of our people that are despondent, the reason that they're switching allegiance to Jesus Christ is these are the people that actually care, and their lives were literally transformed. They they went from lying on the street abandoned by their own people to lifted up by those that follow Jesus. And it it leads to this culture where they're like, these Christians, we may not agree with them. They're for us. They're soft towards us, and we ended up listening to their gospel. So That's that's and I Michael: think also what's evangelistic about it is that care piece, which Jesus would call love. So I it's synonymous with each other. But because oftentimes, as Christians, we're known as, like, the moral piece. Yeah. Right? That's how we're viewed. But, like, in here, it seems like observably that the state hasn't been able to deliver what they promised. And so now, you have a people that realize, oh, it's like those campaign cycles. But at a state level, they haven't been able deliver on their promises and they're not getting the help. Then, all of a sudden, the corny Christians come along and they actually the people see the care that they have, then all of a sudden, that cornyness isn't what I see anymore. Justin: Yeah. I think we're labeled as corny Christians in this neck of the woods if the only time they see you is when you're coming out to vote and the people around you are saying, you're just coming out to vote against me. The only time I see you come out of your house is to come against me. Instead, what they're seeing with the different ministries that are using our the counseling program to their benefit Yeah. They're seeing people that are reaching out to folks that are on the street or in their homes hidden away, destroyed by their own opinions with the things that they've been either ingesting or thinking about in private, and their life is a ruin. These corny Christians, they're running into these guys who are just open hearted, kind. They see them wounded, and they say, hey. Can I do something for you? And then can I bless you with this opportunity to know Jesus? And it's literally through counseling that they're hearing, about Christ. It's through so there's a a mental sickness that we have in our area where people are just walking around despondent, and it's written on their face. They're not even hiding it anymore. Michael: And you they can't hide it. They can't hide Justin: it, but they're actually com they're having conversations about it. So if we go across the street here at this location that we're at and go to Costco, you'll walk into people that are just shuffling along. And right now, it's to the point they they know they can't get into mental health. They're asking people for help. I think the last time that we were on, we had talked about the fact that even the local schools who haven't been really for believers in any way, they're trying their best to run them out. They realize that it's a 6 month wait, a 200 to to $400 bill just to have your first session with a a counselor that may or may not fit. And so they're handing out cards saying, but this group of people will see you for free. If you're okay with the Jesus stuff, they'll see you right now. And folks are coming and and saying, I need help. Will you help me? And we're not just landing hard on them, but we're saying, hey. You need to know this is the answer. Jesus is the answer, and we're gonna give you scriptural truth, but we're gonna give you tools that will be able to help you walk out of this darkness. And it's a profound, change that happens in their life. So Michael: What's amazing to me about what you just said when I read scripture, and these are verses and things that we see in scripture that we're all familiar with. But when Paul and others are quoting from the Old Testament and then even in the New Testament that all of a sudden confounding the wise. All the world's approaches in their own wisdom and conventional wisdom, god just makes it confusion and then puts them in a position where all of a sudden, the gospel isn't foolishness. Right? It's not, a gospel isn't foolishness. Right? It's not, a stumbling block in the way that it was before. Yeah. But now the gospel is opened up, and people Justin: actually receive Michael: the gospel through that care. And it's also, to your point, the gospel through that care. And it's also, to your point, in just cultivating a counseling ministry within your church And, again, obviously, for you guys, it's taken some time. Yeah. Right? It is not it's not it wasn't a flash in the pan. It's not something years upon years of building layers and process and pathways and cultivating your people so that again, Ephesians 4, like you quoted earlier, equipping the saints for the work of ministry. And like you said, it's first in the house of the god, but then it's also going out and equipping that formal care that they're learning really via the word, but then they're taking it out and they're applying it, and then they realize they've been able to demystify this vernacular that they've been told about anxiety, depression. And you have to have these degrees and professions, again, going back to god confounding the wise Yeah. And the simplicity of true, legitimate hope and transformation. And it transpires in a conversation with a smile and in an extension of here's Jesus. And here's how Jesus can Totally. Go go go ahead. Justin: Jesus was constantly quoting scripture himself. So he's using the word of god. Spirit of god's working through that. And one of the places he would quote from all the time is Isaiah. But a passage that's just been filling my mind as we're getting ready for the conference this weekend has been Isaiah 55. And it starts at the beginning of that passage. It says, come, everyone who is thirsty, come to the water, and you without silver, come by eat. Come by wine and milk without silver, without cost. Why do you spend silver on what's not food and your wages on what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to me. Eat what is good, and you will enjoy the choices of foods. And so at the beginning of that, it's this cult, and it doesn't say to what tribe. It doesn't say just to Israel. He's saying, come, anyone who is thirsty. So we're in the middle of the northwest. Like I said before, you can't walk out your door without running into those who are thirsty for God. They're not aware of of what is they're buying a lot of stuff that is wasting their time. They're buying into a lot of thinking that's destructive. But some people have said, but evangelism is not gonna work because people are just too hard headed. They're gonna start off. They don't listen to my arguments, and that's because we think that our arguments somehow would win. But then he gives this invitation in verse 6. Seek the Lord while he may be found. Call to him while he's near. Let the wicked one abandon his way and the sinful one his thoughts. He puts it into categories there. You're actively doing wrong things or you're just thinking about wrong things. Set that stuff aside. Return to the Lord. My thoughts are not your thoughts. Your ways are not my ways. This is the Lord's declaration. And he says this, for as the heaven is higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than yours and my thoughts than your thoughts. Just as the rain and snow fall from heaven. And do not return there without saturating the earth and making it germinate and sprout, providing seed to sow and food to eat, so my word that comes from my mouth will not return to me empty. It'll accomplish what I please. He goes on to say that where there was a thorn brush, a cypress will come up instead of a briar, a myrtle will come up, but literally you have planted stuff that's thorny, that smells terrible, and because of the word of God, it doesn't say anything else. The word of the of God goes into that situation and what you have planted ends up becoming fertile ground for aromatic trees and blessing. He transforms your life and then the thing that is different for this individual is they've listened to the word of God. So Christ is saying stuff like, come to me all you who are thirsty. He's amplifying these things. But the idea is not that we've given them some new way of thinking or we've combated their faulty ideas, literally, they get flooded with a sense of peace because they begin to live according to the word of God, and they don't know why it is that they're no longer angry, anxious, fighting with their spouse. They just know I've given my life to Christ, I've asked for forgiveness, I've asked him to change the way that I think, and my mind is beginning to change as I soak in God's word. And there's always an answer for whatever they're facing Mhmm. In there, but the peace that's happening is not just profoundly, evident in their life. It radiates to the people around them, and everyone else is looking at them and the way that they were living before and says, there's the answer. It's observable change. It's observable change that comes from the word of God. And so I think the gift that counseling gives us is there's some trails we can follow. Here's a scripture for that situation. Here is God's way of thinking for that scenario, but it's not arguing people into the kingdom. It's saying, I wanna put the the word of God into your hand in a way that you can say, for somebody who's anxious, here's some passages to run to, but the word of God will change them. It's not you arguing them into a different way of existing or forcing them to have behavior modification. Their behavior changes as they just yield to the spirit of God through the word of God. And this is the most attractive thing in the our church is is popping right now. Mhmm. And it's largely because these attitudes pervade that this is what people are doing. They're sharing with their neighbors. They're reaching out to people around them who who are living ugly lives. And in love, they're reaching the plague of our day, mental health issues with the truth of Christ and not willing to let their neighbor just sit there and sour. And we're seeing people give their life to Christ and radical change happen in our community. It's beautiful. Michael: On a daily basis. Justin: On a daily basis. I just on the way in here, I'm listening to a gal, and she was sharing with me about how in their counseling program here at the church that we're part they just saw somebody come to Christ here in the last few weeks. They're coming from the outside, and they said, we decided. We heard from somebody else who's experienced life change. We better try God. And so they gave their life to Christ. They're about to get married. Their life is experiencing change. They've been here for, 8 weeks, and they said our life has been refreshed. Because we we hadn't seen this, but we're watching this person give their life to Christ, and we're on fire again. And so that that just happened on the way into this studio session. Yeah. It's happening, and it's happening on a a monthly basis. We're sharing stories about, somebody who has been transformed by Christ and the radical change that's radiating from their life, and we're rejoicing over it. So, yeah, it's happened in every it's it'd be disturbing to us, if it slowed down. It's just been an avalanche of Yeah. Response. Michael: Yeah. Given just in talking with Dave and Tara with 35 counselors, that's I think she said over a 100 plus hours a month of counseling in total. That's that's thousands of hours of counseling, really, which is equates to gospel care. Justin: It's true. And in addition to that, they've helped train, and they work side by side with our, folks that work with addiction. And so I would extend those hours to group counseling that's happening through the word, with all of those folks, and, we're seeing people come to Christ in those on a regular basis as well. And, yeah, that team has helped inform other major areas of ministry. But using those same tools, that made the minister idea has just been transforming our church, but they're doing the same thing, hundreds and hundreds of hours of counseling. Michael: Yeah. To your point and with that, in helping develop and create and cultivate that culture of care, which is, again, gospel care, because we're talking about evangelism here and going out. And I know of other, what is it, be bold and other ministries where it's not necessarily happening in the church building, man. It's out in the streets in conversations to your point a moment ago of it's informed. Yeah. So those formal moments in being cultivated with that gospel and got that care level as it relates to different terms that we would use in counseling, anxiety, depression, so on and so forth, it makes for fertile ground here because, again, we know specifically what's happening in Oregon and other states that are bent towards the other direction that really where the state tries to step in and be the savior and promise stuff that allows the church to be in a position to present the gospel in ways that, again, is just hope. Justin: Yeah. We're living in a wasteland here of the state promising all of their they're intent intending good things. None of it is coming to fruition. Hey. Let's open up all the there's no drug that's illegal in Oregon. You can have any personal amount of drugs on you, and you you can't get in trouble for using in front of a police officer. There's there's no help, though, also, for anybody who needs help for addiction or for Yeah. Michael: You're not going to jail, but there's really no help if you wanna try to stop or Justin: And nobody's at work here on the mental health side because the system is just slammed with it's a despondent culture. And so, yeah, this is one of the I heard a pastor one time talk about being in a foreign country, and he had said, I remembered having a flat tire, he said, and I'm driving by a mosque, and my tire goes flat. And he said, I stepped out, and he said, I didn't I I wasn't thinking anything negative about the mosque or those people. He said, I just literally thought there's nobody in there that would help me. There's nobody in there that would understand who I am, and I'd be concerned. I'd have to explain a cultural situation. He's looking for whatever that that country's equivalent of Fred Meyer is or going down to a a local grocery store. These people will help me. I'll find somebody that can help me figure out what to do. But he brought that back, and he said, I honestly think that we've entered into a season now in the United States where that's what the average citizen, when they go to a church, they're not thinking negative things maybe particularly about you. But when they see us, they don't They're not thinking help. Say, that that's gonna be a place where I'm gonna find help. Yeah. They go down to a local bar. They go to some some gathering. They're gonna go to a businessman's associate. They might go to the grocery store first Mhmm. And look for somebody to help them out. Our thing is, I believe that's starting to change. As people are finding help now, we're meeting them outside of the four walls of the church, engaging with the problems that they're facing in the living room or in somebody else's living room. That this is friends sharing with their neighbors how they can get to know Christ, but it's counseling situations that are the open door for evangelism. And that has begun to change in our area now. People will drive by Salem Heights, and they may not agree with our Jesus, but they say those people care. And if I'm in trouble, I know you can go there. And so that's a definitive change that we've noted just in the last 10 years. Michael: So psychologically, like, I know I might have my presuppositions and judgments against the church, but I know I can go in there because they've demonstrated themselves around me that Yeah. When it comes down to it, they're there and available if need be. Absolutely. Yeah. And I and once again, back to Justin: that Julian the apostate type idea, this is the plague of our culture is mental health issues, and we're watching our folks dive into that, try get training themselves to be able to meet those needs, but they're meeting them with the gospel. And there there's a a real change in the discussion that is happening. People know that they care. Michael: Yeah. That's that's awesome. So, Justin, in our final moments here, is there any final encouragement you would you would give to pastors, leaders in the church who are thinking through yeah. Guys, that sounds really great. But you don't know my situation or you don't know my position or kinda where in our context and where we're ministering, that sort of thing. How how would you encourage those who would have those sort of thoughts? Justin: I think for pastors, we work through this even on our own staff. One of the concerns that I do know each pastor will have, when you're getting ready to go to the bedside of somebody who is really sick, they're dying, or there's a an emergency that has happened. There's a little some of us will write down in a journal, hey. This is some of the the pathways I've taken beforehand. That that's counseling. I'm gonna go in and here's the scriptures that will meet that moment. You walk through something that fits with your personality to be able to meet the need. What if your entire congregation had been equipped that way? And so you're confident that as they're going out and they're running into people who are in need, they had just been prepared to say, hey. Here are some biblical truths that right thinking people, a a godly person should just have in their hip pocket. You're not asking them to be, so to speak, surgeons. They're just helping you triage people. This person's hurting. They're dealing with anxiety. I shared some passages with them here and and not using scripture just as a, you know, you've probably talked about that on on here. Not just throwing a scripture at them Yeah. But unpacking what the word is really saying will meet the the need of the moment. This would be a gift to you as a pastor to have somebody walk you through this is what I've done in that situation. We're just extending that to your entire church, and this is what I believe. Your people already wanna share the gospel. Michael: Isn't that your tagline? Like, it was like a first or in Colossians 1. Right? It's just presenting everyone immature. Justin: They literally, they want to do this. This is what your the spirit of god inside them has already made them hungry. They just don't know how to do it. The counseling model that has been used by ABC is is a profound gift in this way. You're just allowing the spirit of God to have freedom in the life of that individual. You're saying, hey, here is more fodder to use as you go out into a world that is hurting. You're just helping them organize their thoughts and so it's a gift to your church. It'll be a gift to you and when it's done thoughtfully as I've seen it done over and over again with, you guys and other, organizations, it's not in conflict with the church whatsoever. It in fact, what it does is it brings these folks in alignment alignment with the mission that the pastors and elders have been given. And so, I would just lean into it. Find a way to get some folks trained in counseling, biblical counseling that will go out from your church. Bless not only your people but the community and you watch something happen that you could not imagine. So Yeah. Investigate it. No. Michael: That's that is good. And I I appreciate it just to bring it full circle with where we started. And With all of that, I would challenge our listeners or those who are thinking through that is evangelism, yes, it's sharing Jesus always and forever, but there's ways in which that's done. And it's not reduced to obviously, I love apologetics as much as the next guy regardless of your methodology of apologetics. But at the end of the day, and even like you alluded to, Justin, that the argument and having somebody be convinced by your arguments at the end of the day, what they're gonna be captured by is your care. Yeah. And and that's what Jesus obviously said. That's why he said that you would be identified as my disciples in the way that you love one another. And, like, Justin mentioned about Julian, like, that was seen and demonstrated in a culture that was a culture of death, and they saw life. Justin: Yeah. And and we're in that same culture here in the northwest, and that is the difference maker. Michael: Appreciate it, Justin. Thank you for being with us, brother. It's always a joy. Hey, y'all. Again, any anything you'd like us to talk about, please email us topics at speak the truth dot org. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you guys next time.