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1:11

Hi, I'm Sarah. And I'm Helen. And

1:13

this is the Squiggly Careers podcast. Every

1:16

week we talk about a different topic to

1:18

do with work, and we share some ideas

1:20

and some actions that we hope will help

1:22

you to navigate your squiggly career with that

1:24

bit more clarity and confidence. So

1:27

today we're talking about the knowing,

1:29

doing gap. And I

1:31

think this is one where the minute you

1:34

start diving into this, you realise there are

1:36

so many things that we know we, quote

1:39

unquote, should do. And actually

1:41

we've got the knowledge about, but for

1:43

some reason it doesn't quite translate into

1:46

what we actually do. And so

1:48

people talk quite a lot about the say-do gap, but

1:50

I think that's a slightly different thing. That's sort of

1:53

where you've almost, perhaps, been disingenuous. You say one thing,

1:55

but then you don't actually follow through on it. I

1:57

do think perhaps that is slightly worse. But the knowing-doing

1:59

gap, you know... So it's sort of like you've

2:01

got the knowledge, you've got the know-how. I

2:04

think actually practically, like

2:06

almost like rationally and objectively, you know this thing

2:08

makes sense. But for some reason,

2:10

it just doesn't show up. It's

2:13

not what you do. And actually it can be

2:15

quite hard to figure out, like why not? And

2:17

then like, how do I do something about this? Because, you

2:19

know, these can be quite a big source of frustrations, I

2:21

think. And before I share

2:23

my perspective on this, I need to just apologise. With

2:25

a cold. I've got a cold, a bit nasally. We're

2:28

just gonna have to go with it because the podcast

2:30

doesn't stop even when you already have a cold. But

2:32

we thought we'd try and share some sort of

2:34

common knowing dig gaps that we have seen with

2:37

people that we work with. And we thought we'd share some of

2:39

ours as well. So some that you might

2:41

relate to are when you know how to

2:43

prioritise your work. Like you got all the theory,

2:45

but you still never feel like you're particularly in

2:47

control of it. Or maybe you

2:49

know that you should take breaks in your day,

2:52

but you keep compromising your boundaries. So you never have

2:54

a lunch break, for example. You never finish on

2:56

time. Or maybe you know that you

2:58

should take time to learn. You know, that's important, but

3:00

it's always the last thing on your to-do list. And

3:02

I think what tends to happen is sometimes

3:04

we think, well, I'll just

3:06

find another tool or another model. There must

3:09

be another thing that I could find out

3:11

about that would help me to do this

3:13

better. But the issue is not getting more

3:15

knowledge. The issue is actually kind of the

3:17

action happening. It's the gap that just gets

3:19

bigger, the more you invest in the knowing

3:21

rather than the doing. And

3:23

I do wonder if there is a relationship between

3:26

almost like how long you've known

3:28

the thing, but not been able to do the thing,

3:30

maybe the harder it gets. You

3:32

know, because over time it just builds up and you

3:35

sort of, you know you need to do this thing,

3:37

but you just haven't kind of found a way through

3:39

it. It might also just be worth your flocking on

3:42

when you're thinking about your knowing doing gaps. And when we

3:44

talk about examples and the actions that we're gonna go

3:46

on to, is this something where

3:48

you've had this know-do gap for a long

3:51

time, sort of it's been kicking around the

3:53

way that you started your career, or you

3:55

know, over quite a few years, or does

3:57

it feel like a relatively new know-do gap?

4:00

that also might, you don't get a bit of a

4:02

sense I think for sort of how deep-seated this is,

4:04

you know, almost like how lodged in your brain

4:06

it is and that'll also give you

4:08

a sense of how hard it might be and to

4:10

kind of encourage you to take the right actions when

4:12

we get to that section. I guess it takes you

4:14

a bit to fixed and growth mindset doesn't it because

4:16

you might start saying well I just can't do this,

4:18

I'm not a person who's able to close this gap,

4:20

that's just not the kind of thing that I'm good

4:22

at, whereas if you've got growth mindset you'd sort of

4:24

see the gap and know that there

4:26

was something that you could do to close it and you'd

4:28

believe that you just hadn't taken that action yet but that

4:30

you could. So should

4:33

we talk about a few of ours?

4:35

A few of our knowing doing gaps.

4:37

Initially I'm not sure it's a super

4:39

easy question to answer when we were

4:41

both reflecting on this but

4:43

something that sort of unlocked the list

4:45

because then actually when you get started you're like

4:47

oh the floodgates have opened, whereas Helen

4:49

mentioned that often these kind of knowing

4:52

doing gaps are a source of

4:54

kind of recurring frustration or very familiar

4:56

frustration and I think that's because you've

4:58

got the knowing but you don't then

5:00

do anything with it that sort of

5:02

feels annoying. You know like you get

5:05

annoyed at myself and I sort of question myself like why

5:07

don't I do this, like I know this is a good

5:09

thing to do, I know this is the right thing to

5:11

do and so maybe if you're thinking I'm

5:13

not sure what mine are instead commit

5:15

it from the kind of point of frustration

5:18

or getting annoyed at yourself then that opened up lots

5:20

of things for me. So Helen which

5:22

one did you get to as your sort of priority

5:24

one because we're going to use these examples as we

5:26

go through today? I know because I've

5:28

read an awful lot about it and you've talked

5:30

with quite a lot about it that multitasking is

5:32

bad, like I know that you end up with tasks

5:35

switching and you're less effective on all the different activities

5:37

that you try and do but I

5:39

still do it. I have a

5:41

real gap between knowing that it's not good for

5:43

my work but still kind of habitually multitasking in

5:46

my days. And

5:48

I know that asking and giving feedback

5:50

is really important, we've talked about it

5:52

on the podcast before, I've read and

5:54

watched and listened to lots about it

5:56

and I do it very infrequently

5:59

and in a very ad hoc way

6:02

and I certainly don't do it sort of

6:04

frequently and fearlessly in the way that

6:06

I want to and then definitely sort

6:09

of mad at myself because of it. That was just

6:11

the start of the list but we're just going to

6:13

stick with one example for today. And I guess you've

6:15

probably got to find a little bit of motivation which

6:17

we're going to get into in terms of our ideas

6:19

for action between keeping the gap and closing the gap

6:21

because to Sarah's point if you've been sat with this

6:24

for a while you might think well why do I

6:26

need to change now but just some kind of high

6:28

level reasons about why you might want to close

6:30

the gap. A, it's not great to

6:32

work with frustration every day and just to build an

6:34

appointment that Sarah talked about there in the research they

6:37

call it cognitive dissonance. So this is where

6:39

like Sarah might say oh you know I'm

6:41

a leader who values feedback this should be

6:43

part of the way I work and then

6:45

when you're not doing that it's almost like

6:47

kind of say it's like an identity undermining

6:49

experience like I'm not behaving in a way

6:51

that someone that I believe myself to be

6:53

should do so closing the gap gets rid

6:55

of that dissonance which is not really great

6:58

for motivation at work. Also you stop

7:00

improving because if you're just keeping doing

7:02

something that ultimately isn't working for you

7:04

then you might kind of get sparkles to resonate with

7:07

your development so that's a bit of an issue

7:09

if we don't close the gap and I think

7:11

this might sound a bit harsh but I think

7:13

other people might lose confidence in your ability to

7:15

act. So for example Sarah keeps saying to me

7:17

Helen I just need you to focus on this

7:19

project and I'm like no I will I will

7:21

I will but I never do then over time

7:23

Sarah's just going to stop asking me to focus on

7:25

a project because she's not going to have any confidence that

7:27

I'm actually going to be able to commit to the work

7:30

so I think some of this is about you and some

7:32

of it's probably about other people's experience of working with you.

7:35

And we were also reflecting on you probably

7:37

have some knowing doing gaps that are very

7:39

personal to you you know they're sort of

7:41

really specific to you and your skills and

7:43

your strengths and what you're not doing but

7:46

want to do for your own personal development

7:48

but we also think there are probably some

7:51

team knowing doing gaps so the team

7:53

we know we want to do this but for

7:55

some reason it's not actually happening so

7:57

maybe there are some team things and then there

7:59

are and organization ones as well. And

8:01

actually some of the research, one of

8:04

the HBR articles, which Helen found, which

8:06

is actually over 20 years old, talks

8:08

about this idea of organizations sort of knowing

8:10

too much and doing too little. And they

8:12

sort of describe this as the knowing doing

8:14

gap. So I think there's sort of three

8:16

different lenses here that you can look at

8:18

this from the organization lens, the sort of

8:21

team lens, and then like you personally, which

8:23

is sort of where we're going to start

8:25

because we know that's where we have the

8:27

most control to do something different. So

8:29

we've got five different ideas for action to help you

8:31

close the knowing doing gap. And I don't think you

8:33

have to do all of these, there's a couple of

8:35

different models. So I think it might be worth you

8:37

thinking, which is the most effective one for me to

8:39

start with so that you can make make a bit

8:41

of progress. But we will go with through them in

8:43

turn. And Sarah and I are going to use our

8:45

gaps to kind of illustrate what they might look like.

8:47

So maybe if I talk about the first one, and

8:49

then we take your gap around feedback to bring it

8:51

bring it to life for people a little bit, right?

8:54

Can't wait. So

8:57

the first idea for action comes from someone called

8:59

BJ fog, which I just think is quite a

9:01

cool name, and who has a

9:03

very popular model called the fog behavior change

9:05

model. And the reason we think this is

9:07

relevant is because closing the

9:09

gap will probably require a change in your behavior.

9:12

Because if it was that easy, you would have

9:14

done it already. So there is something that we

9:16

need to sort of trigger within you that is

9:18

going to change your behavior and result in you

9:20

kind of doing some different closing this gap. And

9:23

what BJ fog says in the behavior

9:25

change model is that there are three

9:27

elements that have to come together in

9:29

order for a change in behavior to

9:31

occur. So basically, in order for you

9:33

to want to close this gap. So

9:35

the first is motivation, what's the desire

9:37

to do? My second

9:39

is ability, how easy is it

9:42

for you? And the third

9:44

is a prompt, what's going to make you

9:46

do it now. And so when we get

9:49

these three elements, motivation, ability and a prompt

9:51

when they come together, then we've sort of

9:53

got the ingredients for a change in

9:55

behavior for this sort of I guess

9:57

that is the desire to do the

10:00

do. That's what we're trying to get to. So,

10:02

Sarah, if we were going to take

10:04

your feedback bit and the motivation, what's

10:06

your desire to change

10:09

the way that you're approaching feedback at the moment? So,

10:12

I actually find this model really helpful

10:14

because what I've realised is two of

10:16

these three things I have, but one

10:18

of them is missing and that's the

10:20

reason that I've got the gap. So,

10:22

motivation, one of my values is achievement

10:24

and I know that I'll be better

10:26

if I get more feedback from people

10:28

and also I want to support other

10:31

people to be even better and explore

10:33

their potential. So, I actually have really

10:35

high motivation personally because it's

10:37

a really good fit with my values and

10:39

also we do talk

10:41

about feedback in our workshops and so

10:43

the more that I live and breathe

10:45

this, the more examples I've got, the

10:47

more useful I can be and useful

10:49

is one of our company values. So,

10:51

my motivation actually feels really high. In

10:54

terms of ability, I'm going to say that

10:56

I would back myself because I go, well,

10:59

I actually... I'm good, I'm good. I

11:01

do know, yeah, this is the problem, isn't it? Because this

11:03

is why you've got the no do gap. I know how

11:05

to frame feedback, I've got some good tools, I

11:07

know what good looks like and I feel like I

11:09

could do a decent job of this. So, I'm

11:11

sort of not scared, I suppose, of my

11:14

capability or worried about my

11:16

capability. I've realised my problem

11:19

is the prompt. So, I don't

11:21

have any kind of trigger or

11:23

sort of natural situation where

11:26

I sort of go, oh, okay, this

11:28

is the moment where I ask for some feedback

11:30

from people that I work with in Amazing If,

11:33

the clients that I work with, from you, for

11:35

example, and I also don't have the

11:37

kind of other trigger to sort of go, oh,

11:39

and then this is when I kind of give

11:41

that feedback or this is the moment where I

11:43

make that happen. This is the sort of the

11:45

time in my diary where this becomes a reality.

11:48

And so, even just by very quickly looking

11:50

at sort of that triangle of three things,

11:53

I'm like, oh, okay, so one and two is

11:55

fine, but because I don't have that prompt, how

11:57

does that ever do it? So, that's

11:59

my problem. So I

12:01

think what that has naturally helped me to

12:03

do is a bit of red and green

12:06

on motivation, ability and prompt. And

12:08

essentially I've kind of spotted that I've got a

12:10

rod on prompt and then it

12:12

makes you think about, well, okay, I've got the

12:14

awareness. I think what this gets you to quite

12:16

quickly is awareness, but it

12:18

perhaps doesn't quite get you to

12:20

action, but it at least gets you

12:23

to thinking about, well, what does that action need to be?

12:25

What don't I do that I need to start doing? And

12:27

I think some of the other things that we're going to

12:29

talk about now might help to sort of fill that gap.

12:31

So I wonder if that first bit is just like a,

12:33

where am I? If all of those three are red, you're

12:36

like, okay, well, this is why it's so hard. What

12:38

about if you were doing it Helen for

12:40

multitasking? What's my drive to

12:42

do to progress some high priority projects?

12:45

Okay. Well, my ability, I

12:50

struggle with ability. I struggle with, I think ability

12:52

and prompt. I don't think I necessarily have a

12:55

trigger, but the motivation I'm really clear about, I

12:57

really care about some of the high profile projects,

12:59

but I think I would need to make

13:01

it easier to not multitask.

13:04

You know, maybe I do say, for example,

13:06

doing that work in a different place, because

13:09

it's kind of hard for me. Sometimes if I'm trying

13:11

to do a big project, that needs a lot of

13:13

concentration, but I'm doing it at my desk square, all

13:15

the other things that I need to do around me,

13:17

I find it really hard to do that. So I

13:19

need to make it easy, probably by having

13:22

like a dedicated day or going to a different

13:24

place. So it creates that environment for me that

13:26

would make it easier. And then the trigger, I

13:29

don't know what the trigger would be,

13:32

probably, probably you holding me to account. Probably

13:34

just you, probably a whip

13:38

from you. I was thinking as you

13:40

were talking that as well as this being

13:43

quite a good

13:46

thing for self reflection, I think it's also quite

13:48

a good way that you could support somebody. You

13:50

know, if you notice somebody wasn't making progress on

13:52

something, they had a bit of a gap and

13:54

they keep going, I want to do this forward,

13:56

but it's just not happening or I want to

13:59

work in this way. but I've just not been able to

14:01

do it, that kind of a thing. I think

14:03

prompting someone's like, what's your motivation? What's getting in

14:05

your way? How could you make it easier? And

14:07

what's going to be a trigger that would help

14:10

you to do it? Just those three simple questions

14:12

I think could help someone. They don't need to

14:14

know that it's a fog behavior change model. It's

14:16

just a couple of little coaching questions you're asking

14:18

somebody, but I think that could be quite helpful.

14:21

So the second idea for action is

14:23

a bit of borrowed brilliance from Gretchen

14:25

Rubin, whose website I had a great

14:28

time on. She's got a lovely kind

14:30

of little happiness AI thing, and you

14:32

can ask it questions. It's good. A

14:34

load of free resources. So I'd recommend

14:36

having a look at her website. But

14:38

one of the quizzes on her website

14:40

is about understanding your tendency. And your

14:42

tendency affects how likely you are to

14:44

kind of stick to things and commit

14:46

to doing things. And she identifies four

14:48

different tendencies. So for example, there's the

14:50

upholder tendency. These are people that respond

14:52

readily to outer and inner

14:54

expectations. So if Sarah

14:56

expects me to do it, then I'm going to

14:59

get it. I will uphold what I say I'm

15:01

going to do. There's a question or tendency that

15:03

will only commit to something if they are convinced.

15:05

So Sarah asked me to do something, I need

15:07

to ask her a few questions to see whether I buy

15:09

into doing it. There's the obliger,

15:12

who is like, well, if you do it,

15:14

then I'll do it. So it's almost like there's

15:17

an expectation that they're trying to meet an outer

15:19

expectation. So it's less about my inner motivation.

15:21

It's more I don't want to let Sarah

15:23

down. And then as the rebel, and they

15:25

are just counted, basically, they'll only do it if

15:27

they've decided to do it. So Sarah says to

15:29

me, oh, Helen, I think you should stop

15:32

multitasking. I'd be like, great idea. Sarah, I'm

15:34

not going to do it. The

15:36

point here is, if you understand your tendency,

15:38

you can kind of design your doing around

15:40

it. So you're more likely to stick at

15:42

it. And so there is actually the quiz

15:44

and it will tell you what your tendency

15:46

is. So I came out as a rebel,

15:48

for example, which means I will

15:50

only decide to do something if

15:52

it is my decision to do

15:55

it. So the multitasking thing, for example,

15:57

there's not much point Sarah saying to me, I think

15:59

you should. Yeah, I think you should just kind of just

16:01

focus on one thing this week and get it done. No,

16:03

I know. I've tried that. I've tried it. I've tried, but it

16:05

does not make any difference. I

16:07

need to sort of design my week in a

16:10

way that's going to work for me. And then

16:12

once I've done that, I'm probably going to

16:14

be more committed to taking that action. And so

16:16

the point here really is maybe take the test.

16:19

It's super quick for a couple of minutes.

16:21

It's got some really interesting insights. But understand

16:23

how your tendency could help you to design

16:25

the doing so that you're, you know, you're

16:27

more likely to commit to it. So,

16:30

for example, if you come out as an obliger,

16:32

maybe you could, I could make a commitment to Sarah

16:34

and say, well, I'm going to do this for you

16:36

by the end of the week. And I'd be more

16:38

likely to do it because I've got that tendency of

16:40

sort of, you know, obligation, which could increase

16:42

my kind of stickability of this thing. And

16:45

I think we will move swiftly past the fact

16:48

that we are both rebels and what that might

16:50

mean for how difficult we both are to work

16:52

with. Of

16:54

all of them, it's like, well, you can't make me. And

16:56

I basically can't make myself. And

16:59

I really just have to decide for myself. I thought,

17:01

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18:37

our third action is how you move

18:39

from those gaps to what we're calling

18:41

having a go. So really practically,

18:43

what does this look like? And

18:46

we've sort of got four questions. I

18:48

thought I would talk through mine around

18:50

feedback to then hopefully by the time

18:52

you've gone through these four questions, you

18:55

are getting to having a go. So

18:57

you are moving from essentially doing nothing

18:59

to doing something. It does feel

19:02

a bit harsh but that is our

19:04

reality. So question one, what's my gap?

19:07

So I would say asking and giving feedback

19:09

as frequently as I would like. Question

19:12

two, what's my goal? Frequent

19:14

and fearless feedback. So I'm really

19:16

clear about what I want that

19:19

outcome to be. Question three, what's

19:21

getting in the way? Time, spotting

19:24

the situation, which I now know that's getting in my

19:26

way because I've sort of done that sort of analysis

19:28

of sort of the motivation and the moments and the

19:31

prompts. So both time, spotting

19:33

the situation and probably sometimes worrying

19:35

about people's responses. Maybe if it's more hard

19:37

to hear feedback. So it's probably a bit

19:39

of that along the way but not just

19:41

that. And then four, the bit

19:44

that really matters, what's one small

19:46

thing I could have a go at? And

19:48

then this is where you are starting small,

19:52

keeping it simple and being really specific. So when

19:54

I went through this process I was really trying

19:56

to challenge myself to go what

19:59

feels realistic? what feels relevant,

20:01

what have I got really high levels

20:03

of control over? So I thought,

20:05

oh, okay, well, I could start

20:07

each week by asking someone from

20:09

our AmazingIf team for some feedback.

20:12

So first thing I do in a week,

20:14

I'd probably, if I was going to be

20:17

even more specific, I could say, start each

20:19

week asking someone for feedback over teams, just

20:21

using one feedback question. I would

20:24

know those questions, you know, like I said, I would

20:26

have the capability to know what to ask, and it

20:28

could be about my strengths, it could be about my

20:30

impact, it could be an even better off question. But

20:34

maybe just by getting into that routine,

20:36

just starting my week by asking for

20:38

some feedback. A, I've done

20:40

something, so I'm further forward than I was

20:43

at the start, you know, the previous week.

20:46

And also, it probably raises feedback up in

20:48

my mind in terms of it's important, it

20:50

makes it a priority, you sort of create

20:53

a bias towards, okay, I am trying

20:55

to close this gap. This is one

20:57

action that's going to help me to do that. I

20:59

would probably have to put a reminder in my diary

21:01

to make that happen, otherwise it would just be, I'd

21:03

forget, especially on a Monday morning. But

21:05

that feels like something I've got high levels

21:08

of confidence about my ability to actually do

21:10

that. And I think that's a good stress

21:12

test to have at the end of asking

21:14

yourself those questions. Just do that stress

21:17

test as if you were sort of coaching yourself. Out

21:20

of 10, how confident do I feel

21:22

about taking that action? And here,

21:24

I think we are looking for like a 9 or 10 out of

21:26

10. And if any lower than that, can you make

21:28

the action smaller? Could it be even more straightforward?

21:31

Because if it's anything below that, then you're just going

21:34

to go back to having the gap again. I

21:36

was trying to think about this for mine. So

21:38

what's my gap? My gap is being able

21:40

to focus on one thing at once. What's my goal? To

21:44

make progress on some high priority

21:46

projects. What's getting in

21:48

the way? Trying to do too many

21:51

things in a day. What's

21:53

one small thing I could have a go at? Block

21:56

out one morning a week for

21:58

high priority projects. I

22:01

think actually, you know, because when you feel

22:03

the frustration, you know, we talked around like, what

22:05

does this gap feel like? You're kind of living with

22:07

the gap quite a lot and it feels frustrating and

22:09

sometimes you just need a framework to think it

22:11

through and you kind of go, oh, of course that's

22:14

what I need. But when you're really frustrated, of course

22:16

you just need to ask, make feedback the first

22:18

thing you do in a day. Of course you do.

22:20

But when you're really frustrated, I think it's really

22:22

hard sometimes to see what you need

22:24

to do differently. And so it might just seem like

22:26

four very simple questions, that they are sort of designed

22:29

to go from something that feels difficult

22:31

and frustrating and that you've probably been

22:33

sitting with for quite a while to

22:35

something that is simple and durable today,

22:37

ideally like something you can act

22:39

on straight away. And I guess

22:41

that's also part of having this knowing doing

22:43

gap is you probably know quite a

22:46

lot and that might make it hard

22:48

to know where to start because you're like, well, I

22:50

could do this, I could do that. You know, almost

22:52

like this, I don't think people will find it hard

22:55

to know what they could do, but almost

22:57

like the problem is then we don't do any

22:59

of those things. So actually by just going, it's

23:02

one small thing that you can just sort of

23:04

start straight away. Actually we're being quite sort of

23:06

reductionist, aren't we? We're sort of going and

23:08

being quite empathetic on ourselves to sort of go,

23:11

this is not an easy gap to close. So

23:13

to have having a go, I think feels like

23:15

a good sort of mindset to have in mind.

23:19

Next section is about getting a

23:21

doing mental. So this is

23:24

someone who does the thing that you

23:26

want to do. So they are already

23:28

doing it. You can sort of see

23:30

that they are making that thing happen.

23:33

And this is not just about having a

23:35

sort of nice chat or just sort of

23:37

catching up with the person. Essentially what you

23:39

are trying to do is

23:42

unlock what it is

23:44

that they have managed to do,

23:46

their techniques, tried and

23:49

tested tools, how do they

23:51

take action so that then you can figure

23:53

out could any of that be useful for

23:55

me. So essentially I think here you are

23:57

looking for someone who doesn't have that

23:59

notion. doing gap, you know, they're going, there's no,

24:01

there is no gap. They've either closed the gap,

24:04

or they just didn't have it in the first

24:06

place. So then you're sort of going, right, well,

24:08

what, what is it about their approach that I

24:10

could sort of make my approach. So

24:13

we've tried to create a bit of a script

24:15

to get you started with how you could get

24:17

some support from someone who does the thing

24:20

that you might not do very well at the

24:22

moment. So Sarah's going to be my example for

24:24

this, because she is very good at focusing on

24:26

work, and I often get easily distracted. So this

24:28

is how I would frame it using the script.

24:31

So I admire your ability to focus on

24:34

one thing at once. I

24:36

know that that matters, but I struggle

24:38

to press pause on other

24:40

people's priorities when I'm trying to work on

24:42

one thing. How would

24:45

you approach that challenge? And so just before

24:47

Sarah comes in, the three kind of points

24:49

there are I admire your ability to, I

24:51

know it matters, but I struggled too. And

24:54

how would you approach that challenge? So you're

24:56

sort of acknowledging that they've got this ability.

24:58

You're also, you know, being a bit

25:00

vulnerable that you find it difficult, but you're then

25:02

asking them for help with their expertise. So that's

25:05

what those kind of three different questions are going

25:07

to get at. So Sarah, my struggle is sort

25:09

of pressing pause on other people when I'm trying

25:11

to do a bit of deep work. So if

25:13

that was you, how would you approach that challenge?

25:17

So I think the first thing I would say to you

25:19

is, you know, you should recognize that that

25:22

struggle comes from a really good place

25:24

of wanting to be supportive, wanting to

25:26

be helpful and responsive. And those are

25:29

all kind of really, really good skills.

25:31

I would also probably say to you, oh,

25:34

that's interesting. I thought maybe you'd be struggling with

25:37

distractions that come from tech or notifications. So

25:39

that's why it's really important. I think that

25:41

you're sharing your struggle with me rather than

25:43

me second guessing or assuming why you find

25:45

it hard to focus on one thing at

25:47

once, because otherwise the advice

25:49

or the suggestions that I would give

25:51

you might not help to address your

25:53

struggle. So I'm going, okay, well, that's interesting. So it's

25:56

not tech that's

25:58

your sort of distraction downfall. is

26:00

actually sort of other people pressing pause

26:02

and other people. And if we were

26:04

genuinely having this conversation, I think I'd say, okay, well,

26:06

that's not directly a challenge for me. I

26:09

think I find that okay. I

26:11

find it okay to, I suppose what

26:13

we're saying is like, leave people waiting

26:15

or not getting back to people immediately. And

26:18

then very practically, I think I'd probably say to

26:20

you, well, look, given that that

26:23

is sort of part of your DNA, and

26:25

this is gonna feel quite different to what you

26:28

do at the moment, maybe what

26:30

you could do is block

26:32

out some time for your focus work that

26:34

you really want to do, but

26:36

know that straight after that, you've

26:39

got in your diary, what I would

26:41

kind of label as a responsiveness hour. So

26:44

essentially, you know that sort

26:46

of almost kind of the payoff

26:48

from not multitesting, focusing on one

26:50

thing at once is then straight

26:53

after that, you're gonna get the chance to go

26:55

back to people, respond to things quickly. You know

26:57

it's coming, and also you know it's coming really

26:59

soon. So it's not like I'm saying to you,

27:01

you've got to wait two days for

27:04

that. And essentially, I'm asking

27:06

you to propose another people for these

27:09

two hours, but also knowing that straight

27:11

after those two hours, you then

27:13

got the chance to kind of make sure everyone's got what

27:15

they need. And I'd probably ask you, well,

27:18

how realistic does that feel for you in your

27:20

week? So my reflections on what

27:22

Sarah has shared is, A, I quite like the idea

27:24

of having like a rapid response hour. That really appeals

27:26

to me. Oh yeah, that sounds exactly

27:28

like you. I actually don't know why you don't already do

27:30

that, because that is definitely, you are like a rapid response

27:32

person. Well, that's probably not do it all day, but I think

27:35

actually doing it now is probably more effective. But

27:37

also, just when I was asking Sarah those

27:39

sort of questions, it made me

27:41

think that it's a much easier way of asking for

27:43

help. So if I had to send Sarah, oh,

27:45

I'm really struggling with like, do work, can

27:47

you help me? That's quite hard for

27:50

me to say, and it's maybe a

27:52

little bit vague, whereas using those subscripts,

27:54

like I admire, I struggle to, how

27:56

would you approach that challenge? It sort

27:58

of gives you an easier way. to ask for

28:00

the help. We'll put, by the way, we'll put all

28:02

those statements in the pod sheet so that you can

28:04

see those really easily. But just say, I found that

28:07

a lot easier than just saying, I'm struggling, can you

28:09

help me? It's an easier way into that conversation, I

28:11

think. I also think it

28:13

makes sure that you get the help that

28:15

is useful for you, because we did, we

28:17

tested these ideas. That may or may not

28:19

be believable listening to the podcast, but we

28:21

tested all these ideas beforehand. And interestingly, the

28:23

first time we tested it, I

28:25

ended up trying to help Helen with some, I

28:27

was like, oh, maybe it's all of Helen's notifications

28:30

and all of her tech that's the problem. But

28:32

then when Helen really thought about it, she was

28:34

like, that's actually not the issue. So I could

28:36

have easily helped Helen with the wrong

28:38

thing if she hadn't signaled to me what was

28:40

the thing that she was struggling with. And then

28:42

actually, as a result, you get to a much,

28:44

much better place. So I can be more useful

28:46

in terms of the help that I'm giving. And

28:48

then Helen gets something that's much more helpful in

28:50

terms of what she practically can then go away

28:52

and do. And

28:54

then our last action is to

28:56

have a doing dress rehearsal. So

28:58

I think these knowing doing gaps

29:00

are hard to close. And

29:03

I just like the idea of picking, maybe

29:05

you pick a day, maybe you pick a

29:07

week, I think it depends what your depth

29:09

is. And you just sort of

29:11

think, I'm just going to try it out just for

29:13

this day, just for this hour, just for this week. And

29:16

you're not too attached to the outcome. And

29:18

we've not talked about it loads today. But

29:21

here, when you're doing something new or that

29:23

you've not done for a long time, the

29:25

likelihood is you're not going to be that good at

29:27

it. And so one

29:30

of the stumbling blocks here could be that

29:32

you try something like let's say I was

29:34

like, oh, I asked for feedback on a

29:36

Monday from someone, this wouldn't happen in amazing

29:39

effort, let's say in somewhere else I've worked.

29:41

And let's say you don't get anything in

29:43

return. That person doesn't give you the feedback.

29:45

And so it knocks your confidence quite quickly.

29:48

And then you revert straight back to that

29:50

knowing doing gap. So you

29:53

try to do something about it, but perhaps it didn't go

29:55

that well. Or let's say Helen

29:57

tried to do that focus time with the

29:59

rapid but the first time she

30:01

did the focus time, maybe she got two hours and

30:03

actually she was like, oh, I only lasted an hour.

30:06

I feel like I failed. I feel

30:08

like I couldn't even do that. And then, you

30:10

know, we got into sort of quite an unhelpful

30:12

cycle of, I'm just not good at that, but

30:14

to kind of fix my internet. Well,

30:16

I think if you have this idea of a dress

30:18

rehearsal, we just know, you know, this idea of dress

30:21

rehearsal is like a practice. It's

30:23

a practice where things will go wrong.

30:25

We make adjustments after a dress rehearsal

30:27

before the sort of main performance, and

30:30

you sort of adjust accordingly. And so

30:32

let's say Helen did try to do that two

30:34

hours and she figured out, actually, do you know

30:36

what? Initially, that's too long. I'm now

30:38

gonna try an hour. I'm gonna try 45

30:41

minutes, but we don't feel like we failed. And so

30:43

I think just this idea of, if

30:45

you just picked a moment to be like, oh, I'm

30:47

having a bit of a doing dress rehearsal, I

30:49

think you give yourself a lot of permission to

30:51

practice, to have a play, to lower

30:54

your expectations of yourself, which I think all

30:56

those things are quite helpful here because we

30:58

are doing something that is hard and probably

31:01

something you've not done that recently. So

31:04

just to summarize the different things that we've covered, and

31:06

as I said, these will go in the pod sheet,

31:08

which you can download and kind of work it all

31:10

through. We started with a bit of self-awareness. So we've

31:12

got that behavior change model and then also understanding your

31:15

tendency. So that's sort of, I think, how you can

31:17

sort of design the doing so it works

31:19

for you, understanding your motivation and your

31:21

ability. The second thing we started

31:23

talking about was much more about actions. We've got

31:25

gaps in giving it a go, getting a doing

31:27

mentor, doing a dress rehearsal. So all the questions and

31:29

the prompts that we put together, we will put in the

31:32

pod sheet. You can get that on the show notes on

31:34

Apple, or if you just go to amazingist.com

31:36

and you go to the podcast page, you'll be

31:38

able to see all the episodes there and you

31:40

can download it. And if you want to dive

31:42

in a bit deeper, you can also join us

31:44

at PodPlus. That happens every Thursday morning at nine

31:47

o'clock and it is a free 30-minute session where

31:49

we can do some doing design together to

31:51

help you take action. But that's

31:53

everything for this week. Thank you so much for

31:55

listening and we'll be back with you again soon.

31:57

Bye for now. Bye everyone. Thank

32:00

you very much.