0:00

so hello

0:19

friends Greg

0:21

Coeckel here

0:24

and the show

0:31

is stand a reason I am your host and thank

0:34

you for being part of what we're doing

0:36

today I just want to give

0:38

out some numbers which I almost never do

0:42

but we still get callers because most

0:45

of you who called know

0:47

the number but maybe you'd like to call but don't know

0:49

the number so let me give it to you 855-243-9975 that's

0:57

855-243-9975 that's the number to

1:03

call into the studio miss

1:06

Amy Hall is the

1:10

person answering the phone and you can talk with her

1:12

and if you're nice to her which most of you

1:15

are then have you ever declined a call

1:18

Amy you have occasion and

1:20

not too much not too much so so and

1:23

she'll take the call if you're outside

1:25

the US you can dial 562-424-8229 that's

1:33

562-424-8229 and we're glad to take

1:39

your call I

1:41

have nothing profound

1:45

to say to start my program

1:47

with and so I'm just going to

1:49

go to our callers who

1:51

probably have more profound things to ask

1:54

about than what I'm thinking right now

1:57

so let's to go to Columbus imagine

2:00

that's Columbus Ohio. Oh, wait

2:03

a minute. I made a mistake there. Scott's

2:08

next in Oxnard. So Scott's been waiting.

2:10

Okay, Scott. Glad

2:12

to have you on board. Yeah, hi.

2:14

And thanks for waiting. I almost messed

2:17

up there. Yeah.

2:19

Okay. Well, good. Well, hopefully you'll

2:21

have something profound to say here as

2:23

we unpack this a little bit. By

2:25

the way, I'm a strategic partner. I

2:27

really appreciated all the STRs

2:29

meant for me over a couple decades

2:32

now. Wow. In our, my church is

2:34

actually not far too up in Camarillo.

2:36

Right. Right. We, I started a series

2:39

that's kind of a month, every month

2:41

or two, we do a special workshop.

2:43

It's after church, we have lunch, we

2:46

go into a topic that usually

2:49

cannot unpack in a 30

2:52

minute sermon. And the series

2:54

is called Christ in Culture. And we kind

2:56

of react to some sort of

2:58

cultural thing that's out there. And we kind of

3:01

train how we can communicate back

3:03

to that and live as believers in

3:05

the crazy culture that we're in right

3:07

now. And we've done a

3:10

lot of interesting topics. We're coming up in

3:12

March, I'm doing one on moral relativism. Wow.

3:15

And I'm excited for that. You

3:17

know, I first read your moral

3:19

relativism feet planted firmly

3:21

in midair, you know, quite

3:23

a few years ago, I guess that was

3:25

actually like a DVD or CD series, I

3:28

think it was a CD at that time.

3:30

And then just a few

3:32

months ago completed the FTRU course

3:34

on moral relativism. Oh, good. And

3:37

those are great foundations for some of the things I'm

3:39

going to be doing. And

3:41

my question is, I'm preparing for this,

3:43

I was wondering about

3:46

whether or not to

3:48

mention briefly about critical

3:50

theory, just because it seems like

3:52

it, it kind of flows along

3:54

with moral relativism. But I'm not

3:56

quite sure. In some ways,

3:59

it doesn't seem like to have an objective

4:01

right or wrong but just seems to

4:03

concern itself with power. You

4:05

know, who's the oppressors and

4:07

who are the oppressed. And

4:11

you know, so it's a kind

4:13

of a different moral project. But I

4:16

know that you have talked about how,

4:18

you know, once there's no objective

4:20

right and wrong, basically there's only

4:23

the dispensing of power left. Who's

4:25

ever in control gets to decide

4:27

what's right or wrong and then

4:30

press it down onto the rest of us. And

4:35

so my question then is, is

4:38

critical theory kind of an

4:40

offshoot or kind of flows

4:42

parallel alongside more

4:44

relativism? Well,

4:48

I think it's confused. And

4:51

the reason it's confused is because

4:54

on the one hand it

4:57

is, well, keep in

4:59

mind moral relativism

5:01

is a subset of

5:04

a broader

5:06

relativistic view of reality.

5:10

If you do not have

5:12

truth about reality, so

5:14

if you're a postmodern, for example,

5:16

and denies that we can know

5:18

truth about reality, that all there

5:20

are different narratives, okay, and

5:23

there is no metanarrative, there is no

5:26

big story over everything, well,

5:28

then there is no big story regarding

5:31

any subset and that would be

5:34

truth regarding morality. So moral

5:36

relativism is a subset of

5:38

a broader view of relativism,

5:41

of postmodernism. So

5:43

a kind of non-realism when it comes

5:45

to knowledge, we don't know the world

5:48

the way it really is in itself,

5:50

okay? And

5:54

it seems like critical theorists, and I'm just

5:56

reading now a book by Neil Shenvy, which

5:58

is probably If you just

6:00

want one book to read on this, maybe

6:02

this is the best book to read because

6:04

it breaks down critical theory in a very

6:06

fair way. I'm

6:08

trying to remember the title. Amy can

6:10

tell me it's called Critical Dilemma, the

6:13

Critical Dilemma. Is that right? Shenvi's

6:15

book, S-H-E-N-V-I. He has a co-author. I

6:18

can't remember the name, but I

6:20

think it's Pat Sawyer with

6:22

Neil Shenvi and the book is

6:24

Critical Dilemma. Now, it's

6:27

not an easy book, but for you, I

6:29

don't think it'll be hard, but it will

6:31

give you a broader base so you have

6:33

a better understanding. If you're talking about issues

6:35

of Christ and culture, it's good that

6:37

you have a more basic

6:40

understanding of

6:42

critical theory. Now, Neil Shenvi also

6:44

has about a one-hour video

6:48

on YouTube that you can get

6:50

that breaks down in

6:53

a quicker way what

6:55

he considers the five main elements of

6:58

critical theory, which is the social

7:00

binary and lived experience, also known

7:02

as standpoint epistemology and social

7:07

justice, which is the solution. If

7:11

you can get a basic understanding, one

7:13

of the things that he teaches there is

7:15

that this is, in a sense, a truth

7:17

is relative. There is no

7:20

truth kind of thing. It's foundational. However,

7:23

and this happens all the time with

7:25

these kinds

7:27

of characterizations, however,

7:31

they present their material as

7:34

if it is an accurate

7:36

characterization of the way society

7:38

works. The first thing

7:40

is social binary, and you mentioned that, that there

7:42

is the oppressed and the oppressor. Everything

7:46

is always organized that way. You

7:49

can't get away from it. Racism is built

7:51

in to every

7:53

social structure and

7:55

every society. This

7:57

is why in order to

7:59

defeat racism. you have to

8:01

destroy the structures in which.

8:04

Racism. Is embedded virtuosic.

8:06

He did so with you

8:09

have this curious circumstance. Which.

8:11

Is really the contradiction of

8:13

all post modernism? It's there

8:15

are no accurate metre narratives,

8:17

big stories. everybody's got their

8:19

own individual one. I wonder

8:21

if yes, there it is.

8:24

It here is the better

8:26

narrative that explains that. So

8:28

the postmodern characterization of truth

8:30

is itself a met narrative.

8:32

And so it's contradictory. A

8:34

and ah A And this

8:36

is what the always run

8:38

into. And if they're going

8:40

to say there. Is no

8:42

truth in their characterizing the

8:44

the the dynamic between the

8:47

oppressor and the oppressed. Also.

8:49

In moral terms. So not only is

8:52

the dynamic an accurate characterization and their

8:54

mind of the way the world actually

8:56

as. So. It's a

8:58

It's an objective truth but it

9:00

also has more component. The oppressors

9:03

are bad and the press r

9:05

r r r. Why would

9:07

say they're necessarily good, But they are, But

9:10

there's a breath favored group. You.

9:12

Favor them. Because. Of

9:14

their oppressed. Status.

9:17

Okay, I'm I actually

9:19

think that's critical Series a

9:21

little bit complex as has

9:23

complexity this very easy to

9:26

oversimplify and kind of migrate.

9:29

Ah, Like the to

9:31

to have. To the

9:34

side of cake, total opposition. Everything

9:36

that critical theory says bad and

9:38

this is one thing that Nielsen

9:40

Be warns against. Because. They

9:42

were observations that are embedded in

9:44

so a critical theory that have

9:46

an element of truth to them.

9:48

and so what we don't want

9:50

to do is, you know, throw

9:52

the baby out with the bathwater.

9:55

And and deny. Obvious.

9:57

Truth because we don't like the whole system.

10:00

The. Whole system is kind of corrupted

10:02

so we just reject every detail.

10:04

Send Me does a very good

10:06

job in my view of being

10:08

balanced and so he assesses. He

10:10

gives a clear picture of what

10:13

critical theory is, study, examines it's

10:15

strengths. And then he

10:17

examines it's weaknesses which includes

10:19

an examination. Of. It's

10:21

weaknesses. In light of a biblical

10:24

worldview, he thinks it's a false

10:26

worldview. And. Of course, the

10:28

biblical worldview is true. So

10:31

I'm but it in specific.

10:34

In specific, regarding your question,

10:36

you have this crazy circumstance

10:38

once again where people are

10:40

on the one hand denying

10:42

truth. Objective truth

10:44

than the other hand, providing a

10:47

way of understanding the world Critical

10:49

theory would say sick as accurate.

10:52

It is true and they are

10:54

compounded. a problem to have to

10:57

obey. Well, are you know it's

10:59

gotten moral imperative. Css.

11:01

The that compounds it because it's not

11:03

just true, but there are moral elements

11:06

to it And so you have a

11:08

moral obligation to oppose the racism. That's.

11:11

Part of the evil of

11:13

the oppressing class and you

11:15

restore and repair by instituting

11:17

social justice. And of course

11:19

a justice is moral term.

11:22

And. You can't really be. A

11:25

critical theorist, it seems

11:28

to me consistently without

11:30

acknowledging I'm objective truth.

11:34

He. And. Moral. Truth as

11:36

a subset of objective truth because all

11:38

both seem to be in place. I

11:40

should actually that are talk to the

11:42

Ocean v One Son of A when

11:44

I'm with it would get an opportunity

11:46

to have this discussion but I I

11:48

would like to ask him this very

11:50

question because it just seems so obvious.

11:52

I know in his book he says

11:54

that these are these are This is

11:56

a group that denies objective truth. But.

11:59

Then what does he make? They're characterization in

12:01

light of this denial. What does

12:03

he make a Their characterization of

12:05

the social binary and standpoint epistemology,

12:07

lived experience or social justice for

12:10

example or says ah, oppression by

12:12

it he allergy. These are all.

12:15

Pieces. That are pieces that

12:17

make up kind of the.

12:20

Critical. Theory. Ah, Structure

12:22

as it were so odd.

12:25

I'd. I'd be very interested to have this

12:27

chat with him. Just. To find

12:29

out because it just strikes me such

12:31

an obvious self refutation. Yeah.

12:35

That that answers my question and I would

12:37

love to add. We'll. Soon be

12:40

on and. Off.

12:42

To check that one out That yes it's

12:44

start first with going online and watch video

12:46

cassette as it's who that. I I watched

12:49

a video and took notes, did an outline.

12:51

So I have a kind of conceptual framework

12:53

to work with. He

12:55

changes his language a little bit. In

12:58

the book. So. When he

13:00

talks about lived experience in

13:02

the video which means basically

13:04

the oppressed group is in

13:06

an pissed has it an

13:08

epidemic advantage say know what?

13:11

Oppression feels like they've lived it,

13:13

so they have a preferential position

13:15

to talk about what reality is

13:17

like. And the oppressor doesn't cause

13:20

he's the oppressor, he's just going

13:22

to justify his oppression. And so

13:24

he needs to be silent. And

13:26

a lot of these discussions that

13:28

you see in in these cultural

13:30

circumstances like a when critical Theory

13:32

is part of or they call

13:34

it the D I'd Diversity, equity

13:36

and inclusion as part of the

13:38

As educational enterprise or part of

13:41

the corporate enterprise. The white

13:43

folk have to shut up. They don't

13:45

get to talk because they don't have

13:47

anything to to say. They are not.

13:49

Allowed. To speak because of

13:51

the standpoint. Pissed about what? because of

13:54

lived experience if now. I think he

13:56

calls that standpoint epistemology and the book

13:58

or it's just changed terms. But

14:00

the the basic components are are all

14:02

in place there again I'm that will

14:04

help you sir, watch the video then

14:06

get the book he and it's a

14:08

hard bound book and but it's it's

14:10

I think it's structured great Elected the

14:12

Table of contents and I've already done

14:14

my my preview of the Book of

14:16

Read as been four hours kind of

14:18

going through most of it in a

14:20

overview to look and and I really

14:22

like it In a talks about the

14:24

Franklin School and he talks about where

14:26

this came from philosophically and then how

14:28

it's played out in our culture gives

14:30

you the main elements of it's he

14:32

tells her hey the here are some

14:34

things that they are they made They

14:36

have a good point here regarding these

14:38

particular issues so our and then he

14:40

talks about where they he thinks they

14:42

go wrong and again the biblical analysis

14:44

so it's all their saw it suggests

14:46

out and I are One tip my

14:48

hat to you as a you know

14:50

faithful stand to reason guy you're paying

14:52

it forward so to speak with a

14:54

group that you're working with and helping

14:56

them to our the to be more

14:58

alert or aware of. The kinds of things that

15:00

are going in a culture that. Are relevant

15:03

to. The. Gospel. So.

15:05

Good for you. But. Like you

15:07

got great training some you guys

15:09

and was the leadership of the

15:11

church comes to these real real

15:13

state police thoughts are that good.

15:15

Training on that side.scott Can I

15:18

ask you what churches it in

15:20

Oxnard? It's Good Shepherd The Lutheran

15:22

Church in Jail. Maria. Oh

15:24

kissing him Rio Ah is that what

15:26

street as as internal up Las Palmas

15:28

are are are neo are. Laid

15:32

off the freeway up a Louis road, there

15:34

are you? are you from my dad thought

15:36

well I know we're Lewis Says right on

15:38

the freeway. Arbs can I mean the main

15:40

thoroughfare there? I didn't know there were such

15:43

as a Mexican restaurant right there but I

15:45

had another surface. And as a as a

15:47

Lutheran church there to your jeopardize Lutheran church,

15:49

what What side are you on the Yom

15:51

Kippur? There's a kind of Camry, a village.

15:54

Thing on unlike I think it's the western

15:56

side or this of the freeway and then

15:58

there's in a lot about was I. Yeah.

16:01

We're all your on the. We. Would

16:03

be on not be. The.

16:05

Eastern side of the freeway not the ocean

16:07

by the other side. okay the other say

16:09

yes hard to tell he soon or western

16:11

mountains us cause everything's at an angle they

16:14

are hidden of the close as I go

16:16

the other man so all right well as

16:18

great talking to you and dumb and I

16:20

hope those suggestions to help you out and

16:22

I'm gonna watch that video tonight. Though.

16:26

Some. Be used as a H E

16:28

M D I. S

16:30

H E N The I correct yeah

16:32

Neil and okay. hold on. just one

16:35

hundred and aim. Oh. Okay,

16:42

so Amy says if you go

16:44

to Nielsen Movies website. For.

16:46

Just google the ocean be go to his

16:48

website he has links to all of the

16:50

worked at he's done including the videos and

16:52

he's done in that will take it a

16:55

you tube where where he does his presentation

16:57

that i sorry but does he He's really

16:59

excellent and I have a this his name

17:01

in his field his field as i chemistry

17:03

or something like that you know he might

17:05

have i can pc and chemistry but for

17:08

some how he got involved in this and

17:10

he's very good in his book and is

17:12

very very well done. The under I think

17:14

you'd trust him as a source. Okay,

17:18

Thanks. For the tip okay appreciate

17:20

your car, your call Scott and

17:22

Ah a good to hear from

17:24

of. Strategic. Partner here who's

17:26

paying it forward and by the way,

17:28

just so you guys know, I always

17:30

appreciate when people say thank you for

17:33

the role you played in my life

17:35

for stand to reason especially as great

17:37

but the best. The biggest compliment

17:39

for all of us here is

17:41

when people pay it forward because

17:43

we're we're dissolved, his disciple ship

17:46

oriented it is our gold to

17:48

build you to go out. And

17:51

then to build others and from

17:53

the very early on in my

17:55

Christian life, one of the operative

17:57

Vs for me and partly because

17:59

it. so wonderfully

18:03

modeled for me in the life of

18:05

Craig Giggler, my first

18:07

and most intensive

18:09

discipleship relationship, two and

18:11

a half years actually. That

18:16

verse is 2 Timothy 2 and verse 2. And

18:19

it says, Paul was talking to Timothy, he

18:21

says, the things that you have learned

18:24

from me in the

18:26

presence of many witnesses. In other words,

18:28

this isn't like secret information, this is

18:30

the basic public stuff. These

18:33

entrust to

18:35

faithful men who will

18:38

be able to teach others also. So

18:40

you actually have four generations, so you

18:42

got Paul, you have Timothy, you

18:45

have faithful people who

18:47

then entrusted to others

18:50

for generations. And

18:53

so Craig entrusted to me, pass the

18:55

baton of me, I pass it to

18:58

you, and then you pass it

19:00

to others, and then they pass it to

19:03

others still. And this is what we're

19:05

all about, so this is so great about this

19:08

prior caller, I think Scott is his name, paying

19:12

it forward, passing that baton. Good

19:15

for you. Let's take a break and we'll come back with more

19:17

of your calls here on Stand to Reason. Would

19:20

you like a Stand to Reason speaker to speak

19:22

at your church or event? Greg,

19:25

Alan, Tim, John, and I, Robbie

19:27

Lashua, are available both in person

19:29

and online. Just

19:31

email booking at str.org

19:34

to schedule us today. We

19:36

can address a wide array of

19:38

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19:41

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19:43

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read our bios and learn more about

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the topics we cover, visit str.org. Then

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email booking at str.org

20:09

to schedule Greg, Alan,

20:11

Tim, John, or me,

20:13

Robby today. As

20:15

a high school teacher, I always had a red

20:18

pen close at hand. When I wasn't in front

20:20

of my students teaching a lesson, you

20:22

could find me assessing assignments, grading essays,

20:24

and evaluating exams. The red pen

20:26

played a crucial role in the

20:28

educational development of my students. With

20:30

it, I questioned their assumptions, exposed

20:32

their errors, and challenged them to

20:34

think critically. You see, a good

20:36

teacher doesn't merely tell his students

20:38

that they're wrong. A good teacher

20:40

shows his students why they're wrong

20:42

so they don't make the same

20:44

mistakes twice. He corrects because he

20:46

cares. Last year, I

20:48

was scrolling through social media, and frankly, I

20:50

was discouraged at all the bad thinking that

20:53

undergirded much of what I was reading. Then it

20:55

hit me. What if someone applied

20:57

the red pen to this flawed thinking?

20:59

And red pen logic with Mr. B

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was born. In the last

21:03

few months, red pen logic has grown

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in popularity. Through our engaging

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and shareable educational graphics and videos,

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we are helping people, especially young

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people, assess bad thinking by using

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good thinking. And we have a

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lot of fun in the process.

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So here's your homework assignment. Like

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subscribe at the red pen logic YouTube

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channel so you don't miss a single

21:30

video. Class dismissed.

21:44

All right. I was just thinking of a critical

21:47

theory here, and I just want

21:49

to offer a thought to help

21:51

organize this with you. Just like

21:53

relativism is a broad concept, and

21:55

there is a subset called moral

21:58

relativism, there is also critical Social

22:00

theory is a broad concept, characterizing

22:03

the way we were just talking

22:05

about it, social binary lived

22:08

experience, also called

22:10

standpoint epistemology, social justice.

22:14

But hegemonic power, that

22:17

was the fourth one, hegemonic power, okay.

22:24

Critical race theory is a subset of critical

22:26

theory. It's taking the concepts of critical theory

22:28

and applying it to race. But

22:30

then there's also queer theory, that

22:33

is critical theory applied to sexuality,

22:35

particularly homosexuality. And then

22:37

there's critical theory applied to feminism,

22:39

and there's critical theory applied to

22:43

ableism, which is, you

22:47

know, this are people with handicap. They

22:50

call it ableism instead of disableism because

22:52

that's a pejorative way of characterizing it.

22:56

It's all kind of collected underneath

22:58

this broader area of critical theory.

23:00

And one of the things that

23:02

really surprised me and actually helped

23:04

me to understand something that I

23:06

just didn't get as I'm watching

23:08

the news, I'm watching people respond

23:10

and react, and I'm

23:12

looking at like Antifa, which by

23:14

the way, they've kind of settled down a little

23:16

bit, I think. We haven't heard

23:18

much about Antifa lately in the news, it seems,

23:20

but certainly in 2020 2021

23:25

it was huge because it was in

23:27

the aftermath of

23:29

the George Floyd death. But

23:33

the thing that surprised

23:35

me is this oppression

23:38

by ideology. This is part of

23:40

the package, oppression by

23:43

ideology. Now it used to be oppression,

23:47

and oppression

23:49

was something that was physical. So

23:52

you kept people from doing things that

23:54

they should have been allowed to do

23:57

so blacks couldn't use

23:59

certain walls. water fountains or going to

24:01

certain stores or riding buses in certain seats,

24:04

for example, here in

24:06

the 60s and before that. That

24:09

was largely resolved by the Civil

24:12

Rights Movement of that time.

24:14

But nevertheless, you had

24:17

this physical restraint of

24:19

sorts. They

24:21

weren't allowed to purchase property or

24:24

whatever. So

24:26

that's the way oppression

24:28

has characteristically been understood.

24:33

But with critical theory, the

24:36

concept has been expanded. Now

24:38

the oppression can just come

24:41

from ideas. If

24:44

you hold an idea contrary

24:48

to the left, this

24:51

is characterized as

24:53

oppressive. Of

24:55

course, we experience that now. We

24:59

experience people saying,

25:01

if you think

25:03

that homosexuality is

25:05

immoral, then you

25:07

are an oppressor. Even

25:10

if you're not doing

25:12

anything, acting in any

25:14

way that's untoward with regards

25:16

to homosexuals or limiting

25:19

their liberties in any way, just

25:21

the fact that you believe this

25:24

is considered to be oppressive

25:26

and an act of aggression,

25:29

which is why on the one hand there

25:33

is a legitimacy in people's mind

25:36

for silencing hate

25:40

because the expression of hate – and this is

25:42

their characterization of it, of course – the expression

25:44

of hate is an act

25:47

of violence against

25:50

the person. So

25:53

if you say you believe

25:55

homosexuality is wrong, that

25:58

is an expression of hate. and

26:01

it's hateful towards gays and

26:03

therefore it's an act of

26:05

violence towards gays. Of

26:07

course there's no physical action involved at all

26:09

but see how things are being

26:13

turned around, redefined.

26:16

And if there is an

26:19

act of violence towards a group in

26:23

the sense that there is

26:25

an ideology that the group

26:27

itself feels oppressed by, and by the

26:29

way that's also important, the

26:32

determining factor of whether

26:35

the ideology is oppressive is the

26:38

way a person

26:40

feels subjectively about it. You

26:43

may not have any

26:45

hostility at all that's

26:48

motivating your behavior but if a

26:51

person feels it's oppressive then it

26:53

is oppressive and you're guilty of

26:55

oppressing. Now if you're

26:57

guilty of oppression in

26:59

virtue of the views you hold

27:02

and that oppression is understood

27:05

as violence to a

27:07

person then that person

27:10

or the group defending that

27:12

person can respond with

27:15

physical violence as an act

27:17

of self-defense. And

27:21

this when when the

27:23

change fell in the meter for me

27:25

regarding this, this is when I began

27:27

to understand why

27:30

Antifa which is anti-fascist,

27:34

kind of where the word came from, can

27:37

act in a fascistic violent

27:39

way. This is violence against

27:41

hate. Stand

27:44

up against hate. How?

27:46

By hating. It's what it

27:48

amounts to but

27:50

it's justified in their minds because it's self-defense

27:53

in virtue of

27:55

the ideological oppression

27:58

and violence against others.

28:01

It's just the

28:03

idea. That's violent physically,

28:08

violently respond. We can burn things down. We

28:10

can take over property. We can block bridges,

28:12

that kind of thing. Just trying

28:14

to help you understand how these ideas work. Okay,

28:17

let's go now to Kevin in Columbus, Ohio.

28:19

Kevin, thanks for your

28:21

patience. No problem. Great.

28:23

I'll post to our strategic partner.

28:25

Oh, great. Thank you. Do you

28:27

think it's proper? Is there a

28:30

biblically proper way for a private

28:32

Christian citizen to own a gun?

28:34

And then so, what would

28:36

be a proper reason to use it?

28:39

Well, I think

28:41

I'm getting some feedback here and I'm not sure. Do

28:43

you have something else on in the background that's allowing

28:46

me to hear my voice and echo? No,

28:48

but I'll put myself on mute. Okay.

28:53

Okay, okay. So you

28:55

can still hear me, right? Oh,

28:58

I can't hear you. Yes. When you put a few.

29:00

Okay, I see what you're doing. Thank you. I

29:03

don't think you need a biblical reason to own

29:05

a gun any more than you need a biblical

29:08

reason to ride a bicycle. It

29:11

doesn't fall into a moral category that

29:13

needs to be justified biblically, in

29:16

my view. You can own a

29:18

gun because you like guns. You

29:20

can own a gun because you... So

29:23

like collectors have all kinds of guns they

29:25

never even use. They never fire them, but

29:27

they like owning them, just like people who

29:29

buy cars and they never

29:31

drive them, but they like the

29:33

car to possess it. And this is

29:36

true of lots of collections. You can

29:38

own a gun because you like shooting it. And so,

29:41

you know, I have close friends that

29:43

go out every week. One,

29:46

for example, every year on his birthday,

29:48

he purchases another weapon. And

29:51

so he's got handguns and he's got

29:53

a concealed carry and he's got AR-15 and

29:55

he's got all... I think he goes out,

29:58

he's got shotguns and he's very good. with

30:00

skeet and all that other stuff, but he has fun

30:02

with it. And you

30:04

can also own a gun for self-protection, because

30:07

there's nothing wrong with defending yourself, especially

30:10

defending yourself with lethal force

30:13

when there's a lethal threat.

30:16

And I don't know of

30:19

any reason biblically why

30:22

that wouldn't be appropriate. So

30:24

I don't have a biblical, I

30:27

don't require a biblical verse

30:29

that tells me it's okay

30:31

to have a gun. I mean

30:35

if you want to think of a parallel, Jesus

30:38

at one time when he sends out

30:40

his disciples, he says don't take a

30:42

sword, but another time he says take

30:44

a sword. Well a sword is a

30:46

weapon that you wear

30:49

on your body for doing

30:52

violence with if necessary. So that

30:54

seems to me to be a

30:56

parallel to say a handgun

30:58

or something like that or any other weapon

31:01

that you might use to protect

31:03

yourself with. So I don't know if that

31:05

answers your question Kevin or not, but

31:10

it strikes me that no justification

31:12

biblically is required. I

31:14

see, because I you know you

31:16

see Jesus said you live by the sword,

31:19

you die by the sword. And

31:21

you know people fled persecution when it was

31:24

coming against them rather than standing there and

31:26

fighting against it. Okay,

31:28

right okay well let

31:31

me take each in its on its own. Jesus

31:33

is just offering when he says if you live

31:35

by the sword you die by the sword. He's

31:38

not saying yes or no to swords.

31:41

He's just saying here's what

31:44

you're risking if you go

31:46

into battle with a sword. That's all he's

31:48

saying. It's like a proverb that

31:50

says here's the deal, this is the

31:52

risk okay. But

31:56

he's not in that particular situation

32:00

Peter was using, I think this was on

32:02

the Passion Night when he was betrayed, Peter

32:04

was using a sword to rescue Jesus when

32:06

Jesus didn't want to be rescued and

32:09

that he's identifying the problem with it. You know, you

32:11

live by the sword, you die by the sword. But

32:14

there was another opportunity where he said, okay, bring

32:16

a sword. Now it's time to pack a

32:18

sword. They said, here's one. He said, that'll be adequate. Okay,

32:21

that was another occasion. So

32:23

in neither case is

32:25

he prohibiting the use of a sword, okay?

32:33

He's just talking about in the one there's

32:36

liabilities. In other cases, it seems appropriate. Paul

32:39

talks, well, he talks about government not bearing the

32:41

sword for nothing. So there are

32:43

legal authorities that can use force and that's

32:45

legitimate. And that's actually, I think,

32:47

an implicit affirmation of

32:49

the legitimacy of capital punishment

32:52

by authorities that are properly

32:55

tasked to carry

32:57

that responsibility. So but

33:00

again, the Christians did not

33:03

protect themselves when they were

33:05

being persecuted for their faith,

33:08

okay? That is, they

33:10

didn't use violence to protect themselves. But there

33:12

was a number of occasions where

33:15

Christians did flee circumstances

33:17

where persecution was imminent.

33:20

So they weren't looking for a fight and

33:23

they didn't use lethal means to oppose the

33:25

fight, but they sure tried to escape. In

33:27

fact, Paul did over the wall in

33:30

Damascus. They let him down in a basket, you

33:32

know, to get and also in other

33:34

places in Macedonia or where Greece or

33:37

Corinth, maybe Philippi,

33:39

I can't remember, you know, where his

33:42

disciples got him out of town and got

33:45

him somewhere else because it was dangerous for

33:47

him. So there's

33:49

nothing wrong with fleeing

33:51

persecution, avoiding it. And

33:54

there's also nothing wrong with self-defense that I

33:56

can see. The circumstances you

33:59

were describing is... when people were

34:01

not defending themselves as

34:03

far as we can tell under

34:06

persecution. Now for

34:08

their faith, now that

34:11

does raise the question, maybe

34:14

they had no ability to defend themselves. You

34:17

know when the Romans and Syrians come

34:19

to arrest you and you're taken away,

34:21

you're not having any opportunity to defend

34:24

yourself. You're just taken

34:26

away and thrown to the lions or wherever, you

34:28

know, tarred and feathered and crucified or whatever,

34:31

set on fire, you know, the way Nero did. He

34:33

didn't feather anybody but he tarred them and lit them

34:35

up. So I

34:38

don't know if that's the best place to

34:40

go to get our advice about this. But

34:44

I see no, even

34:46

if Christians chose not to fight back,

34:49

I don't see any

34:51

prohibition from

34:54

fighting back. And

34:56

by the way, Dietrich Bonhoeffer lost his life

34:58

because he was part of a plot to

35:00

take the life of Adolf Hitler. So

35:05

of course he's not a biblical person, but

35:08

he's a good Christian man and

35:11

that might suggest that, certainly it suggests

35:14

in Bonhoeffer's mind that there was a

35:17

propriety to fighting back against

35:20

a despot who was costing the

35:22

life of many Christians and others. That

35:25

should be stopped. What do you think? Yeah,

35:29

because all these things that are going on

35:31

with these illegal aliens and I don't know

35:34

if I'm letting my imagination

35:36

run away with me, but I live in

35:38

a pretty safe city now. Columbus is pretty good.

35:42

But you know what I mean? I

35:45

mean, when something happens, I want to

35:47

be prepared. Yeah, well, I

35:49

own a gun. I

35:52

have two of them. I have two Glocks. If

35:54

I lived in Los Angeles, I would too. Yeah,

35:56

well, I mean, it's not against the law to

35:58

own the gun and I've obviously had to

36:00

pull it out, but I'm teaching my daughter. I

36:02

have only one daughter who's interested in learning how

36:05

to use it, and we're already,

36:07

I've already been doing some work with her,

36:09

and we're gonna do more. I think it's

36:11

a good idea. It's practical,

36:13

and there's nothing wrong with it as a

36:16

Christian, and you want

36:18

to get training. So my wife and I

36:20

have already had tactical training with a handgun,

36:24

and we want to get more and get

36:26

more capable in case we need to

36:28

use it, or maybe we just, you know, it's fun to go

36:30

out shooting, and that also when you

36:32

do it properly, it also helps you to learn

36:35

how to use your weapon properly and not hurt

36:37

somebody else. So well

36:39

thanks a lot for your input. I

36:42

appreciate it. Yeah, okay Kevin. I appreciate

36:44

your call as well. All right, take

36:46

care. All right, let's

36:48

see what do I want to

36:50

do. Okay, let's go to Austin

36:52

in Fullerton, and Austin thanks for

36:54

waiting. Good to have you. Hey,

36:57

thank you Greg. Sure. So I

36:59

have a marriage question. Okay.

37:02

So I always wanted to marry a girl

37:04

that was smarter than myself. I

37:06

believe that, you know, you try to upgrade

37:08

your life, try to

37:11

find a girl that's very intelligent, and

37:13

I did. She's really smart. She's

37:15

really sweet, and she

37:17

works really hard. Lately,

37:25

you know, I mean for a while she

37:27

kind of had that manager personality. And I

37:29

told her, I've told her

37:31

in the past, you have a mean

37:33

manager personality with me sometimes, and

37:36

recently, you know, I've been

37:38

working. I have been trying to grow

37:41

my side business as wedding photography. I

37:43

do wedding photography on the side, and

37:46

I've been running around every single day looking

37:49

at property because we want to buy our first

37:51

home. Okay. I want to provide a good life

37:53

for my kid, my wife. Anyway, I

37:55

brought it up to her again, and I said, you're

37:58

always kind of talking down to me. and

38:00

you're very harsh with me, you're very strict, and she

38:02

told me, it's because I think

38:04

you're dumb, and I

38:06

don't think you're that intelligent. So,

38:10

and it was kind of deflating to me,

38:12

because I mean, I'm going to look at a

38:14

home after this call. Yeah,

38:16

I've been working really hard lately, and

38:19

I don't want you to think she's a bad person, but

38:21

she's pretty blunt with me, and

38:24

I've never been told that. You know,

38:26

my mom, your mom always strokes her ego when

38:28

you're a little kid. I was in gifted and

38:30

talented education. She's like, oh, you're so intelligent. You

38:33

tested into gays, you're a high IQ, and

38:35

then my wife tells me I'm kind of

38:37

dumb. Anyway, I'm wondering, Greg, we

38:40

don't have marital problems for some, but I

38:42

don't know how to navigate that. How would

38:44

you navigate that? How would you navigate that?

38:46

Yeah, well, okay, let me offer a few

38:48

thoughts on this, and I'm

38:51

a little bit surprised by the comment, and

38:53

I'm not sure. Sometimes

38:55

when wives are angry, they

38:58

say things they shouldn't say, just like

39:00

when husbands are angry, they say things

39:02

they shouldn't say, all right? I

39:06

don't get the sense that you guys were having an argument, and

39:08

she just went over the top. I'm

39:11

not even sure what motivated the

39:13

comment, but here's an observation. This

39:15

is a takeaway for

39:18

everyone listening, all

39:20

right? Let's just say you're dumb.

39:25

I'm just for the sake of discussion.

39:28

I don't believe that's true. It's obvious

39:30

you're expressing yourself very well and clearly,

39:32

and you've listened to the show, so

39:35

that speaks well of you in

39:37

that regard, but let's just say

39:39

you were dumb. Some people are

39:41

under average with intelligence. What

39:43

are they gonna do about it? They're

39:46

not gonna do anything about it because

39:48

nothing can be done. That's them. You

39:51

could have people who are physically unattractive,

39:53

or they've got other

39:56

physical anomalies. They have a big nose

39:58

or big ears or no head. hair

40:00

or these are things that are just part

40:02

of the package is what I'm saying. Here's

40:06

the rule, you never

40:08

criticize people for

40:10

something they cannot change.

40:14

You never criticize people for

40:17

something they cannot change and this

40:19

is especially true in

40:22

intimate relationships. So

40:24

even if you are a dumb person,

40:26

which I don't agree with from what

40:29

I've been able to tell from just a few

40:31

moments with you talking on the air, if

40:34

that were the case, that's

40:36

part of your package. And

40:39

so what's the point

40:41

of criticizing you for

40:43

something that you have no capability

40:45

of doing anything about, your IQ

40:47

or whatever? It

40:50

might, it's like saying, and honey, you have

40:52

a big nose. There

40:55

you go, look in the mirror, it's big. Well

40:57

maybe she does have a big nose, but why complain about

40:59

that? What can she do about

41:01

that? She can't do anything about it, it's part of

41:04

her package too. And everybody

41:06

comes with those kinds of things. Now there are

41:08

liabilities that we come with too that can be

41:10

changed. And the

41:12

best way to change those, and I don't think IQ is

41:14

one of them, but the

41:16

best way to change those is

41:18

through a gracious kind

41:21

of interaction and respectful

41:23

where one is helping the other because a

41:25

husband and wife are supposed to be teammates.

41:29

They're to be working together and

41:31

seeking ways to build each other up, not

41:34

cut each other down. Maybe

41:37

your wife has twice the IQ

41:39

that you have. It isn't going

41:41

to change the fact that you're the head of the household,

41:44

you're the leader of the family, and if she's

41:46

smart, she's going to find a way to work

41:48

with you. And if you're

41:50

smart, you'll find a way to take advantage

41:52

in a good way of whatever insights that

41:54

she has that she excels in that you

41:56

may not be as strong in. And that's

41:58

the way partnerships are supported. supposed to work.

42:02

Not, well you're dumb and I'm

42:04

not. I'm smarter than

42:06

you. So why would anybody, this

42:09

is what is a little bit mysterious to

42:11

me, why would your wife be motivated to

42:13

say that even if she believed it's true,

42:16

she's putting herself above you at

42:18

your expense. This is not

42:20

good for relationships. Yeah,

42:26

I think she was

42:28

just answering my question. You

42:30

know, why do you talk down to me? Why do

42:32

you talk so firmly sometime as if

42:34

you're my manager? Yeah,

42:38

so maybe, I'm

42:41

just wondering, maybe asking the question is not the best

42:44

way to go about it. I mean it's strange coming

42:46

from me because I'm the question guy right? I always

42:48

say that. Maybe it'd be better

42:50

for you to make a request. Honey,

42:53

please don't talk down to me like that. It

42:55

really hurts my heart when you do that. If you

42:59

have a contribution to make, that's

43:02

fine. Tell me what

43:04

you're thinking about the issue. Give me your

43:06

feedback. If you have

43:08

some ideas about the house or about mortgaging

43:10

or whatever this decision, I'm open to hear

43:12

what you have to say. But when

43:15

you talk down to me,

43:17

it hurts. I'm trying to think of the

43:20

right way to say

43:26

this. I'm

43:29

the president of Stand the Reason. That doesn't mean

43:31

I'm the brightest person in

43:33

our organization. I could have an

43:35

absolute genius that works for me. But

43:37

that doesn't mean because that person is way over

43:39

the top intellectually

43:43

compared to me, doesn't mean that person

43:45

can talk down to me. They work

43:47

for me. I'm the boss. I'm the president. You

43:49

don't act that way. You shall

43:52

respect even if you could

43:54

best be in other areas in certain areas.

43:57

And by the same token, wives are

43:59

supposed to to respect their husbands. This is a different

44:21

ethos and culture. But what submit

44:27

behavior, respect relates

44:29

to an attitude. Okay,

44:32

let me say it again. Submit relates

44:35

to the behavior. The

44:37

wives are to submit to their husbands as

44:40

to Christ. Okay,

44:42

so that's a pretty

44:44

big deal. Husbands

44:46

are the leaders

44:48

of the family. Now

44:51

that doesn't give us as

44:53

husbands leave to abuse our

44:55

responsibility to lord

44:57

it over in an

44:59

inappropriate way. But the word lord

45:01

is the word that Peter uses

45:04

to describe Sarah's

45:08

perspective towards her husband. This is 1

45:10

Peter chapter 3, the first six or

45:12

seven or eight verses. He's instructing women

45:15

to be like Sarah,

45:17

for example, who called her husband lord?

45:21

That's a way of showing respect.

45:23

Okay, so there is a submit

45:25

and then there's not just submitting,

45:27

doing, you know, ultimately when push comes

45:30

to shove, following the leadership of the

45:32

husband, but to do

45:34

it in a respectful manner. It's

45:36

the way you do it. And so when

45:39

a wife is speaking

45:41

the way you just described to her

45:43

husband, even if she's going along with

45:45

what the husband ends up deciding, by

45:51

calling your name, saying what your wife said

45:53

is diminishing

45:55

you and it lacks respect.

45:59

And this is something that she's obliged to do is

46:01

to I'm

46:05

all for a partnership. But

46:08

I'm dad. I'm the husband here.

46:12

I'm the head of our

46:14

family. I am responsible

46:34

before God for you and

46:36

for our kids and

46:40

for our home. That's

46:42

my job. I'm happy to do it. I'm happy to

46:45

have you as a partner and to help out. But

46:48

I don't want you to talk down to me like that. It's

46:52

not right and it's not good for

46:54

our marriage. Sometimes it's just very straightforward.

46:56

Not angry, not vicious, not

46:59

crabbing it, but just straightforward. As a

47:01

matter of fact, this hurts

47:03

me and the behavior is not right. I

47:06

don't want you to do that anymore. See

47:10

what happens. Hopefully,

47:12

a Christian wife, is

47:14

she a Christian? Yeah,

47:18

she is. Okay. So there's going to be

47:20

virtue that you'll

47:23

have access to. But

47:25

look, I know marriages

47:29

are not easy and

47:31

some are harder than others. Some

47:33

are easier than others, obviously. But

47:36

sometimes this dynamic between a husband

47:38

and wife is strained by lots

47:41

of different factors. And

47:43

it may not be just that I,

47:46

again, I don't want to try to

47:50

draw conclusions about what's motivating your wife. I

47:52

have no idea to say this kind of

47:54

thing. But there

47:56

are other dynamics that are in play.

47:58

But a reason... That's

48:00

the dynamics, is not an excuse. A

48:04

reason is not an excuse in this situation. There

48:06

may be other things going on, but that doesn't

48:09

excuse disrespectful behavior.

48:13

And I think it's fair to ask for respect,

48:16

and even in a sense, ask very

48:18

strongly on virtually demand. Say, this is

48:21

not right. This is

48:23

not good, honey. I don't want to have that kind

48:25

of relationship with you. I want to be

48:27

built up by you. I want to build you up. I

48:29

want to find the positives. And by the

48:31

way, something, whatever my IQ is, it isn't

48:36

relevant to my leadership of the family.

48:38

I'm still the head according

48:40

to God. And if whatever it

48:42

is, I can't change that. So

48:44

why demean something I can't change? And now we're back

48:46

to the first point that I was making. Okay.

48:52

Yeah. You know, it's funny. I don't want to admit to

48:54

her that it hurt me. Kind of a

48:56

guy thing. You know, kind of

48:58

a manly thing. Yes. I know. Maybe I should. Maybe

49:00

I should try that. Well,

49:04

this may resonate with her. Okay.

49:08

And I understand like the kind of the

49:10

mantra thing I can withstand it, but the

49:12

fact is it, I know it hurts. And

49:16

to be candid with her on that

49:19

regard, this may touch the

49:23

something in her that motivates her to be more careful.

49:27

Okay. And so if you lead

49:29

with that, that's hard. That hurt.

49:31

That hurt. That's, you know, then

49:34

you don't have to lecture and say a

49:36

lot about it. You don't seem like a

49:38

man of many words, you know, inappropriately.

49:40

Anyway, you explain yourself clearly. And

49:42

like you've done here, I I'm

49:46

a guy of too many words. Oftentimes I say too

49:48

much. And I just have to

49:50

discipline myself when I face my complex in my

49:52

family of just getting to the point quickly, saying

49:54

it and done. And

49:58

then deal with whatever comes up. But not

50:01

over talk it. And maybe that

50:03

kind of situation would be helpful here and then just

50:05

see how it goes. Okay,

50:08

I appreciate it. Okay Austin, I

50:11

appreciate your call and and

50:14

you know be prayed up on this too. Thanks

50:18

Greg. Alright, bye bye now. Marriages

50:23

are hard. I

50:27

don't know how else to say it. I

50:29

remember meeting

50:33

with some

50:35

friends in Hawaii. It actually was we

50:38

reunited with a couple that were instrumental in

50:40

bringing my wife and I together. And

50:44

I had been a bachelor for almost

50:47

48 years. In fact, I

50:49

had my 48th birthday on

50:51

my honeymoon and my wife also

50:54

had not been married before and

50:56

she was eight years my junior. So she was 39 almost

51:00

40. So

51:03

here we were two eligible bachelor

51:05

bachelorette kind of brought together a

51:08

lot of people cheering us on. You know, well

51:10

it's great and it was cool. It was people

51:12

were very happy. We had 200 people at our wedding which

51:15

is a lot. And

51:17

we didn't even partake of any

51:20

of the food because we were greeting people

51:22

the whole time. We ended up

51:24

having a private dinner that night which was great. But

51:29

a number of years well let

51:32

me just think it was probably 18 or 19 years

51:34

later. We were able to

51:36

have dinner with the couple that was instrumental

51:38

in us meeting in the first place. And

51:40

the question then to me

51:42

was so looking back

51:45

now how

51:47

is married life? How are you doing

51:50

as a married person or something like that?

51:52

Now they weren't really probing about what is

51:54

the status of your relationship at the moment.

51:57

But there was a question that was asked

51:59

of me in particular that

52:04

was meant to give some reflection.

52:07

And here's what I said. It took me a long time

52:10

to know how to answer. But

52:12

here's what I said. I said, nobody

52:14

who is not

52:18

married can know

52:21

what it's like to be married. I know

52:25

you're thinking, no duh. Yeah, but I think it's

52:28

beyond that. Nobody understands.

52:30

If you've never been

52:32

married, you have expectations,

52:35

you have hopes, you have dreams, you

52:37

have desires, you might have concerns, whatever.

52:39

All of these things are in

52:42

the abstract. And

52:44

you have a relationship up to the time you're

52:46

married, and this has

52:48

its dynamic. But

52:51

when you get married, you enter into a different world.

52:55

Now, I'm not saying it's

52:57

bad. I'm just saying it's very

52:59

different. And you

53:01

end up facing certain

53:04

kinds of challenges and issues and

53:06

a life that

53:08

you never even thought

53:12

about before. I have

53:14

a friend who said, after he

53:17

finally got married, he realized

53:19

every morning that he woke up, his

53:21

wife was in bed with him. And

53:23

it was unsettling. It's like

53:25

there she was every day. What do you expect

53:27

when you get married? Of course you're sleeping in

53:29

the same bed. But for him, it was a

53:32

huge adjustment, because he'd always been sleeping alone. And

53:34

now he's sleeping with his wife. Now, this sounds

53:36

so crazy, because that's like, wow,

53:39

of course. I

53:41

got married to sleep with my wife, I just

53:43

mean to be sharing the bed with her. There's

53:45

a closest that you're just

53:47

spending the night together, you're right next to each

53:49

other. That's part

53:52

of the deal. I'm not talking anything

53:54

about sensuality here. I'm just talking about

53:56

companionship and closeness. To me, that was

53:58

a huge plus for him. it was

54:00

a negative. But he never thought

54:02

about it and he never realized it would

54:04

be a concern until he actually experienced it.

54:08

And so this is just something to keep in mind

54:10

and it's a reason that you make promises

54:12

and I've talked about this

54:15

before. How do you repair the past?

54:17

How do you secure the future? Who

54:20

can do anything about either? Because we're

54:22

always in the moment and the answer is

54:24

you repair the past with

54:26

forgiveness and

54:29

you secure the future with a

54:31

promise. And

54:33

C.S. Lewis has pointed out that the promise

54:35

is there for when

54:37

things get tough. You

54:41

don't promise to hang together as long

54:43

as it works out. It's easy,

54:46

it's fun, it feels

54:48

good because you're going to hang

54:50

together without the promise if those

54:52

conditions persist. The

54:54

promise is when those conditions do

54:56

not persist. When it's

54:59

difficult, when it's hard, this is why you

55:01

promise to say to have and to hold,

55:04

to love and to cherish. Those

55:06

are activities that you do in

55:11

sickness and in health for

55:14

better or for worse. So

55:16

in sickness and in worse

55:19

you still have, hold, love,

55:21

cherish. That's part of the

55:23

promise. It's not just until

55:25

death do us part. Okay,

55:28

we're in this, we can't get out.

55:32

You have to do the things that

55:35

you promised in addition to until

55:37

death do us part. And

55:39

that's what's going to make the difference in

55:41

the long run, that

55:43

we are committed to live virtuously

55:47

regardless of the circumstances. And sometimes

55:49

it turns out very one-sided. Maybe

55:52

it's all the wife or maybe it's

55:54

all the husband and the other person

55:57

is just confused and whatever and one's

55:59

got to stay. in

56:02

the saddle, as it were. Stay

56:04

in play doing those things persistently,

56:08

consistently, loving,

56:11

cherishing, having, and

56:14

holding. Those are

56:16

all behaviors. Well,

56:18

I don't feel like it. So

56:20

what? That's

56:23

not relevant to the promise. You

56:28

do the behaviors, and

56:30

here's the biblical and the

56:32

psychological point of view. The

56:34

feelings follow the behaviors. You

56:38

do the behaviors, and

56:40

that's what brings the feelings. Sometimes

56:43

and sometimes not, but that's the right order.

56:47

You don't let the feelings drive your

56:49

behavior. You let the virtue and desire

56:53

to keep the vow drive the

56:55

behavior, and the other things take care of themselves.

57:00

This is why, you know, it says in Revelations,

57:02

you know, do the things that you did

57:04

at first. You've lost your first love.

57:06

Well, there's a sense in which that kind of applies here

57:08

in marriage as well. Okay?

57:14

The vows are the solution. I should

57:17

say keeping the vows, all of them.

57:21

That's the solution.

57:23

I've read a great book. It's

57:25

called Sacred Love, Sacred Marriage.

57:29

Can't tell you about it now. There's my music, Sacred

57:31

Marriage. Read it if you're struggling.

57:33

Greg Cope will never stand a reason.

57:35

Give them heaven, then. Bye-bye.