0:04

Hello friends.

0:29

Mike Hoekel here, one of the good guys giving

0:31

you a piece of my mind today for two

0:33

hours. And I do

0:36

that every week of course

0:39

from four until six, my number 855-243-9975. Once

0:45

again 855-243-9975. If

0:50

you're outside the US, you could dial up 562-424-8229. And

0:57

you'll get, in any

0:59

case, get Amy Hall and she'll

1:01

field your calls and then usually

1:05

send you on to me or put you in a queue.

1:07

We're in a queue building right now as I talk, so

1:09

I'm glad to see that. Some folks on

1:11

board here. I don't want to

1:13

forget to make this announcement because I won't have

1:15

an opportunity for a few weeks. But many of

1:18

you know that now

1:20

for 17 years, I can't believe it's been

1:23

this long in a

1:25

sense. It's amazing. For 17 years, that's

1:28

more than half of the life

1:30

of Stand to Reason, which by

1:32

the way, we just passed our

1:34

31-year goal last week

1:38

on the 1st of May. 31

1:41

years, we're out of our 30th anniversary celebration now.

1:43

I guess we can celebrate 31 years we did

1:45

a luncheon today with the team for

1:48

that purpose. But for 17 years, I've been

1:50

working with Frank Turek and a host of

1:52

other speakers for

1:55

his event, a three-day

1:57

event called CIA Cross-Examine, in

2:00

instructor academy. It's

2:03

not a big event. It's not

2:05

an apologetics conference or a place where

2:07

beginners learn about apologetics. It's a three-day

2:10

intensive training event where

2:13

those who already have a foundation

2:15

in apologetics can

2:17

deepen and sharpen their presentation

2:20

and their question answering skills.

2:22

So this is about engagement.

2:25

Now at the same time, it's not

2:27

necessary to have a degree in apologetics

2:29

or philosophy or theology in order to

2:32

attend CIA. We get people

2:34

from a full range, but they're not

2:36

beginners. They've already got momentum

2:40

going forward and we're taking them

2:42

and we're training them to

2:44

take what they have and do better. Alright?

2:47

For example, many of you know

2:49

about Elisa Childers. She actually was

2:51

a student at CIA. Now she

2:53

was pretty good material to begin

2:55

with. Alright? Natasha Crane, the same

2:57

thing. We've had

2:59

people whose names you will recognize and

3:02

actually they have been instructors at CIA

3:04

in the past. Alright? But that's the

3:06

kind of individual that

3:09

comes out of this program.

3:11

Alright? You do

3:13

need a good foundation of apologetics like I've

3:15

said. If you've read the book that Frank

3:17

and Norm Geissler have written, I don't have

3:19

enough faith to be an atheist. If you're

3:22

familiar with the tactical material,

3:24

that's a good foundation. Okay?

3:26

And these CIA classes are

3:29

deliberately kept small to give

3:31

the students a very

3:33

unique opportunity to be personally

3:35

instructed by some of

3:37

the world's best Christian apologists, not

3:40

to mention the ability to network and

3:42

ask questions of instructors and

3:45

fellow students during breaks and

3:47

meals and stuff that we share together.

3:49

Alright? Past speakers have included Elisa Childers

3:52

I mentioned and Natasha Crane, also

3:54

Brett Kunkel. He's been there every

3:56

year too, just like I have the last 17 years.

4:00

Warner Wallace, Alan Parr and many

4:02

other speakers

4:09

except for Frank and I will be there of

4:11

course but it's going to

4:13

be great. Okay the 17th annual

4:15

cross-examine instructor Academy August 1st 2nd

4:17

and 3rd.

4:20

Alright it's gonna be a Charlotte

4:22

North Carolina and to get information

4:24

you just go to

4:26

their website cross examined

4:29

that was with a D cross

4:31

examined dot I'm

4:33

looking for it now it's either comma

4:35

or I suspect let me just look hmm

4:40

where is that there it is thank

4:42

you Amy cross-examine org

4:44

I just found it at the bottom

4:46

just go to cross-examine org and click

4:48

on events and CIA

4:50

for the details application

4:52

deadline is June 30th so it's coming up

4:55

and just want to let you know because

4:58

I'll be I won't be able to give this announcement

5:00

for the next few weeks cross-examine

5:03

org click on

5:05

events and CIA you

5:07

get the details there and then

5:10

sign up hope to see you there August

5:14

1st through 3rd Charlotte

5:17

North Carolina alright with that in mind

5:19

I broke down finally and saw

5:22

or I should say I broke down

5:24

and finally saw Jesus

5:27

Revolution which many of you

5:29

have seen which is great because it

5:31

gives you a window into a time in this

5:37

country especially in Southern California the

5:39

epicenter when Jesus

5:41

was really cool

5:45

for a lot of people it was

5:47

an unbelievable thing that was happening and

5:49

it turned out that all three of

5:52

the coco-boys came to Christ

5:54

in the midst of that revolution and

5:56

we are all right around that time

5:58

1973 when

6:03

in the falls when I became a Christian my

6:05

brother Mark had become a Christian a few years

6:07

before my brother Dave about a year before I

6:09

did but not having any

6:11

chance to grow where he was at by

6:14

the time he got to Southern California to

6:16

meet up with me the brand-new Christian we

6:18

pretty much started our walk with the Lord

6:21

together and Mark

6:23

was the principal influencer

6:25

in in that

6:27

whole process of either both of us coming to

6:29

the to Christ as with our sisters as well

6:31

so all five of the Koko kids are

6:34

committed Christians and two of us

6:36

are full-time ministry Mark is a

6:38

retired pastor now but nevertheless we

6:42

were here right at you

6:44

know ground zero of

6:47

the Jesus movement and it was very

6:49

cool within three months after or four

6:51

months after I became a Christian

6:53

in September 1973 I had actually

6:55

moved in with my brother both

6:57

of my brothers to a

7:00

Christian community in Westwood Village

7:02

it was called it's kind of corny to say

7:04

it the Jesus Christ light

7:06

and powerhouse a

7:08

lot of corny things going on that that that

7:11

time but they were cool too and

7:13

the JC light power house was very cool we just

7:15

called it the house or

7:17

light and powerhouse whatever it

7:20

was very cool because we had about 120 students some who lived

7:22

there on campus as it were it was

7:29

a big fraternity house that had been adapted

7:32

for this purpose a

7:34

women's wing and a men's

7:37

wing separated and common

7:39

area for eating and for taking class

7:41

and having body life and worship and

7:43

it was very cool four months in

7:45

the Lord and that's where I moved

7:47

in this great community and

7:49

I got discipled right out of the gate

7:52

basically within a couple months I made a

7:54

relationship with Craig England there one of the

7:56

instructors and all And

7:58

had two years. They tend to.

8:01

Disciple ship was wonderful. So all

8:03

this to say that I really

8:05

understood understand that period of time

8:07

into the past when people about

8:09

speeds. It's i see the Jesus

8:11

Revolution movie. I said no I

8:13

loved it. I didn't need to

8:16

see it, but. The.

8:18

Bigger reason why didn't wanna see it

8:20

was because I didn't like that actor.

8:24

Well. Let back up and put it

8:26

this way. The actors Jonathan Roomy and

8:28

he was the one who played Jesus

8:30

in The Chosen and I had beefs

8:32

about the second season of The Chosen

8:34

and I share that with the last

8:36

week and I saw in the preview

8:38

that he played Lonnie Stanley one of

8:40

the major players in the movie and

8:42

also in the Jesus Movements and I

8:44

thought oh, I don't want to like

8:46

him. Because. I'm by

8:48

did have ah but

8:50

my brother Mark convinced

8:52

me. He. Saw the movie

8:54

and. He can miss been watch

8:57

it he said is really good. You'll like

8:59

it to worry and I will say this

9:01

wouldn't. I started watching with my wife what

9:03

last week. I

9:05

I'm there was Jonathan Roomy and he was

9:07

Lonnie Stanley know he'd lost some weight for

9:10

this part in this role and little looked

9:12

like a wasn't as he wasn't as robust

9:14

as to is looking as to is is

9:17

Loni san who's gonna slender guy. And.

9:21

He actually got into the

9:23

Raul so well that I

9:25

didn't see Jonathan Roomy Jesus

9:28

playing. Lani. Stanley I

9:30

saw Jonathan room a plane.

9:33

Lie. Stanley, so that negative

9:35

element kind of evaporated for

9:38

me a very quickly. And.

9:40

I in began to enjoy the

9:43

movie course a Kelsey Grammer Senate

9:45

as well playing Chuck Smith I'm

9:47

not Kelsey was a little bit

9:49

old to play chalk at that

9:52

point in Chuck's life when all

9:54

of this began in What? Nineteen?

9:56

Sixty Eight Or Sixty Nine? Somewhere.

9:59

In there. But nevertheless, he

10:01

did a good job. And end

10:03

of the and that a lot of

10:05

this. That. The story revolved

10:07

around the in a Certain Sense and a

10:10

Date and Greg Laurie. Who. Came

10:12

out of that. what does one on? one

10:14

of the first disciples of Chuck's Smith? And

10:16

there's a lot about his story there too.

10:18

So it's sex with had Lonnie Stanley and

10:21

Greg Laurie that are the main characters here

10:23

and Court Lonnie I don't know. died in.

10:26

Eighty. Three.

10:28

Ready for something like that and

10:30

or but I is was a

10:33

significant player in the Jesus movement

10:35

and what out I'll tell you

10:37

a two things I noticed ah

10:40

the of the that. That.

10:42

Were really cool that were laid back up

10:44

and put it this or that were true

10:46

about the movement. One was cool, one was

10:48

not. The cool thing was the energy. The.

10:52

The sense of excitement, The.

10:55

Sense of wow. This is

10:57

like really something going on

10:59

here. This. Is

11:01

fabulous. God is

11:04

here. He's real and he's here.

11:06

and he's moving. and it's it

11:08

wasn't it wasn't I'm. In

11:11

a certain sense, Embarrassing. You.

11:14

Didn't have to suffer public embarrassment.

11:17

To. Identify yourself as a Christian

11:19

because the Jesus Movement was a

11:22

happening thing and it was cool.

11:24

And are so you had all these hippie

11:27

types that we're now. Hippies,

11:30

Were Jesus and they call them Jesus

11:32

freaks which is. An. Odd

11:34

way to put it, but it hippies were

11:36

also referred to as freaks. first

11:39

pejoratively and then it's stuck is just a

11:41

term to describe them and so with your

11:44

hippie they got religion with jesus you're a

11:46

jesus hippie or jesus freak ah but of

11:48

course he says doesn't make freaks out of

11:50

us has just quite the opposite turned your

11:53

life around in a whole but all of

11:55

that was captured in this in it and

11:57

it was a very cool time at

12:00

the same time there were a lot of bizarre

12:21

enterprise. And

12:29

there were other groups too, the

12:31

Tony Alamos Foundation, these kind

12:33

of cultic Christian enterprises that

12:36

were peddling their spiritual

12:38

wares as well. And so there's

12:40

a lot of talk

12:43

about spiritual things and

12:45

a very exciting time. So

12:48

yeah, you have these crazy things. And

12:51

plus one

12:53

of the things the film captured I

12:55

think is the subjective element that's both

12:57

good, as I was explaining just a

12:59

moment ago, and also negative. Because

13:02

at one point when Lonnie Stanley did

13:04

a baptism and

13:07

he raised

13:09

the person from the water, he

13:11

asked the question, how

13:14

do you feel or how does

13:16

it feel? And it kind of conveys

13:18

the idea that getting baptized

13:20

as a new Christian ought

13:22

to stimulate a

13:25

certain type of subjective experience. Like

13:27

I can't wait to get baptized.

13:29

Oh, I went down. Wow, I'm

13:31

seeing like angels and stars and

13:34

there's the Holy Spirit descending upon

13:36

me. And that's just not the way it

13:38

works. Now it

13:41

may have been true for some people

13:43

and there certainly was this suggestive element

13:45

there of just pump up your emotions

13:48

and get into it. And

13:50

that made it fun in many

13:52

ways, but it also had

13:54

its dangers. And There

13:56

were other elements in the movie where the

13:58

same theme was being played. So How do

14:00

you feel about that? How does it feel

14:02

as a great experience? I want you to

14:04

experience what I'm experiencing Now Course, that idea

14:06

of experiencing what am I experiencing could be

14:08

taken in different ways. I want you to

14:10

know God the way I know him. All.

14:13

right? that could be that's a proper

14:15

way of. Characterizing A

14:17

want you to experience what I

14:19

experience but a lot of times

14:21

it was largely subjective. I want

14:23

to the experience the the joy

14:25

and of satisfaction, the fulfillment and

14:27

all that good stuff. that's. Wow.

14:30

Word be in a Jesus Free.

14:33

Entails. And.

14:37

It doesn't work like that all the time. I.

14:41

Remember, I became a christian. September

14:43

Twenty Eighth, Seventy Three, September almost

14:45

the end of the month. So

14:47

October, November, December, three months before

14:49

January first, and I started January

14:51

first. Nineteen. Seventy Four

14:53

in tears. I.

14:56

Was anguishing about hardship that I was

14:58

already beginning to face. It was a

15:00

very short honeymoon. Now.

15:02

There is a honeymoon kind of

15:04

when you become a christian and

15:07

things are great. Niva Louis talks

15:09

about that in his is great.

15:11

I'm. Book. On

15:14

spiritual. Not. Battle

15:16

so much. but this how the Devil

15:19

messes with you spiritually skull screwtape letters.

15:21

But he does talk about that honeymoon

15:23

time and then we fall out of

15:25

it and then is like God removes

15:28

his hand, if not in fact, at

15:30

least from all conscious awareness Lewis says.

15:32

and we are being taught now to

15:35

stand up on our own two feet.

15:37

As. Maturing and growing Christian people

15:39

in. this is how God has a force.

15:42

Of course this is true. And

15:44

sometimes when. When.

15:47

That happens. It catches us

15:49

by surprise if we've been

15:51

told and everyone's acting like

15:53

it's always both to be

15:55

a glorious joy ride. And.

15:58

There was that kind of. during

16:01

the Jesus movement. It was one thing

16:03

that actually bothered me, especially since I'd

16:05

had kind of a wake-up call very

16:07

early on. I said, well, yeah, that's

16:10

good, but it ain't always like that. And

16:14

as I look back now, 50

16:17

years, as

16:19

a follower of Jesus, that it's been really hard.

16:23

And sometimes my life

16:27

has been, there have been periods of my life that

16:29

have been punctuated by very, very difficult

16:32

things. And so

16:34

I just, as

16:36

a public Christian, I want that to

16:38

be clear to everybody. I

16:41

want my life to

16:43

have a measure of transparency so people

16:45

can be clear on what following

16:48

Jesus is really like. And of course, the New

16:50

Testament is very clear on this as well. In

16:53

this world, you have tribulation, Jesus said, but

16:56

be of good cheer. I've overcome the world. Okay, well,

16:58

that's good you overcome it, but still we got to

17:00

go through the tribulation of this world.

17:02

And there are many other verses that talk about

17:04

that. But that was something that I noticed as

17:07

accurately being portrayed in the film,

17:11

but it was a liability to some

17:13

degree. There was just this

17:15

movement, excitement, and at the same

17:17

time, there was this excitement that

17:20

sometimes people took as like,

17:22

this has always got to be that

17:24

way. And interestingly, since there was a

17:26

strong focus on Lonnie Stanley and his

17:28

role in this

17:30

emerging movement through Chuck Smith

17:34

and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, there

17:37

was this, you see how the, at the beginning, there's, it's

17:44

everything's, everything's, you

17:46

know, milk and honey

17:48

and sweetness and light. And then

17:52

he gets a little fuss with his wife, Lonnie does, and then

17:54

you see there's more conflict going

17:56

on in his private life. And then he gets a lot of

17:58

public visibility

18:02

and it's clear he's just, it's

18:04

all going to his head. And

18:06

then he gets chastised by some of

18:09

his friends and also by Chuck

18:12

Smith who is discipling him and he does

18:14

not respond well to that. And

18:17

that's good for people to see. This

18:20

is one of the concerns that happened

18:22

during the Jesus movement. You have people

18:24

that are young Christians that get propelled

18:27

into a huge spotlight

18:32

and are celebrated

18:36

as prophets when

18:39

people with their feet made a clay. And

18:41

Lonnie was definitely someone

18:44

like that, just like we all are. And so that

18:46

came out in the movie too and I'm glad that

18:48

we were able to see that. So

18:51

it really was a slice of history to be able

18:53

to watch the film. I enjoyed it a

18:56

lot and I

18:58

mean the music and

19:00

the clothing

19:05

and the language and the way people talked,

19:07

it was just like I

19:09

said, as time warped for me going back to

19:11

those years. And every once in

19:13

a while I fall onto a far out and

19:15

groovy. If you're around me, you know, it just

19:17

comes out. But that's part of

19:19

that time. Certainly a much

19:22

easier time to be a Christian than it is

19:24

now. No question, the

19:26

culture is very different then. And

19:28

evangelism was a lot easier then than it

19:30

is now. And

19:33

now it takes a whole lot more of

19:35

what Francis Schaeffer used to call pre-evangelism. Like

19:37

to me it's all gardening of one

19:40

type or another. And that's why I

19:42

think focusing on gardening is so important.

19:46

So I give

19:48

my thumbs up to the film now and

19:50

one would love

19:52

to see another revolution like that. You

19:56

know, the Jesus revolution made the

19:59

front. cover of Time magazine. That's

20:02

kind of the way the whole thing ends. Maybe that's

20:04

a spoiler for somebody, but it's

20:07

a minor detail, but it just shows how

20:09

this was a movement of the time. It

20:11

attracted a lot of attention. It wasn't just

20:13

in Southern California. Seattle had a big element

20:17

too. In 1978, they had a

20:19

huge event there called Jesus Northwest

20:21

78, and Keith Green performed

20:24

there. Keith Green was a major

20:27

player, a musician who really had

20:29

an impact. He

20:32

was taken very quickly, abruptly, if you

20:34

will, in his life. In

20:36

1982, he died in a tragic

20:38

plane accident. He

20:42

was like a rising star, a

20:44

bright star. So many

20:46

of us really liked his music and liked the way

20:49

he was a very serious Christian. I met him a

20:51

number of times. But,

20:53

incidentally, people sometimes ask me about

20:55

that period of time as if

20:57

I was a

21:00

participant in the movement. No,

21:03

I wasn't anybody. I was just a new Christian.

21:05

So I was one of the faceless

21:08

mob at these events, but

21:11

I wasn't in ministry during that

21:13

time. Very

21:16

quickly, I started doing things, but I was

21:18

a very small player. What's

21:23

very interesting, and this shows that God has

21:25

a sense of humor, the very first church

21:27

that I walked into two weeks

21:29

to the day after I became a Christian

21:33

was Calvary Chapel, Costa

21:35

Mesa. All right, Chuck Smith's

21:37

church. And it was a Friday night,

21:40

and they had a concert there, and, characteristically,

21:42

at the concert, they have the music, and

21:44

then they have a message. And that's what

21:47

people like Greg Laurie

21:49

or Tom Stipe or

21:53

Mike McIntosh. There are

21:55

other number of people that were the

21:57

speakers, or young guys. And

22:00

they were the speakers and had an altar

22:02

call. Lots of people came to Christ, but

22:04

it was that very building, that

22:07

building that I walked into two

22:09

weeks after become a Christian, that

22:12

stand to reason occupied for what, five

22:14

years? Having

22:17

filled it for five years

22:19

with students in

22:21

our reality enterprise and overflowing rather,

22:24

2000 in the main auditorium and then in

22:27

the overflow areas like the gym. And

22:29

I think we had 2,700 was the most we had, but

22:32

it's the same property that I'd walked into

22:34

50 years ago. Who'd have thunk,

22:36

right? It just shows that God has

22:38

a sense of humor about these

22:40

things. All right, let's take a break and then we'll

22:43

get to your calls here on stand to reason. As

22:46

a high school teacher, I always had a red

22:48

pen close at hand. When I wasn't in front

22:51

of my students teaching a lesson, you could

22:53

find me assessing assignments, grading essays and

22:55

evaluating exams. The red pen played a

22:57

crucial role in the educational development of

23:00

my students. With it, I questioned their

23:02

assumptions, exposed their errors and challenged them

23:04

to think critically. You see, a good

23:06

teacher doesn't merely tell his students that

23:09

they're wrong. A good teacher shows his

23:11

students why they're wrong so they don't

23:13

make the same mistakes twice. He

23:16

corrects because he cares. Last

23:18

year I was scrolling through social media

23:20

and frankly, I was discouraged at all

23:22

the bad thinking that undergirded much of what

23:24

I was reading. Then it hit me. What

23:27

if someone applied the red pen to this

23:29

flawed thinking and red pen logic

23:31

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25:10

right,

25:14

let's jump into our calls

25:16

here. And this is

25:18

Tim in Canada. Tim, welcome to the

25:21

show. Hello, can you hear

25:23

me? I can hear you, even though

25:25

you're way there in the... Even

25:27

way out there in that third world country.

25:29

That's funny. That's down in

25:31

my chicken barn, so it's got a thin roof. Yeah.

25:34

So what's on your mind, Tim? I

25:37

recently had a conversation with my

25:39

nine-year-old best friend's mom.

25:43

Okay. And last time, I was picking him up from

25:46

his house, so I was with my wife, and

25:48

she mentioned that she wasn't spiritual anymore, and I didn't get

25:50

to ask her any more questions because we were in a

25:52

bit of a hurry. So I texted

25:54

her a few days ago and asked her if

25:57

she didn't mind if I asked her some questions.

26:00

And before I even asked a question, she

26:02

went on a big explanation and said she

26:04

wasn't spiritual anymore and said she

26:06

grew up in a Christian school and a Christian

26:08

Bible college. And she said she

26:11

was agnostic, she used the term, but

26:13

she still believed in God, she said.

26:17

But just, I guess not what the world

26:20

tells her God is, she said she never heard

26:22

from God or anything. So she's

26:25

on her own journey, she said, and she's like,

26:27

everyone's got their own truth and she's got her truth and

26:30

she just said she's never heard from God

26:32

or nothing. So she said, do

26:34

her own thing. I guess a

26:37

bunch of questions come to my mind. Like

26:40

if she says she's an agnostic, I'm going

26:42

to want more clarification on that, obviously. I

26:44

mean, that's the first step. And maybe you

26:46

asked, when you say you're agnostic, you mean,

26:48

now apparently she doesn't

26:50

mean she's uncertain about God's

26:52

existence, but is

26:54

that correct? I still 100%

26:57

believe in God, I'm reading her text right

26:59

now, but I no longer accept religion.

27:02

I think maybe the term is agnostic,

27:04

she said. I believe in God, but

27:06

don't believe he is

27:09

knowable. Oh, I see. Oh, well,

27:12

it is. Okay,

27:14

it's already kind of confused. All

27:17

right. And I don't mean to be critical of her, but

27:19

I'm trying to do an assessment here. So

27:22

I understand. She

27:24

can say I'm agnostic means that she

27:27

can't go much further than belief in

27:29

God. All right. I get that.

27:31

I do believe in God. Okay, so I'm

27:34

going to ask when you say you believe,

27:36

but she doesn't think that's religious. She

27:39

doesn't want religion. Well,

27:41

belief in God entails

27:44

a religious notion. Okay.

27:47

So if you believe in God, you're

27:49

a theist of some sort. And

27:52

that is a religious entails

27:54

a religious. I'm

27:57

trying to think of the best way to put it. obviously,

28:00

but you've entered into the religious world,

28:02

if you will, when you say you

28:04

believe in God. So,

28:07

how you say you don't believe

28:09

in religion, but you believe in God. I'm confused.

28:11

And can you explain that to me? And

28:13

that's what I would ask her

28:15

to explain, okay? Yeah, I just felt

28:17

that I'm choosing to live with God's

28:19

love and loving others as my truth

28:22

and growing from there. Okay, now

28:24

let's raise this another question actually,

28:26

too. I mean, if she chooses...

28:28

Now, notice how she's already giving

28:30

some content to her understanding

28:33

of God, which means the more

28:35

she says, the more religion she

28:37

is identifying. She has

28:40

a religion that is

28:42

a belief in God and

28:44

the importance of living a

28:46

life of love. Notice

28:48

there's that theology. Is

28:51

this God a personal God? Can

28:53

you interact with Him? He's

28:56

not personal. He's not knowable, she said. Well,

29:00

okay. Well, what's the point? He's not

29:02

knowable. I'm

29:04

not sure what that means. See, it's

29:07

like automatic for me. There's so much confusion

29:09

in the things that are said. He

29:11

makes statements about Him, and then she says, you

29:14

can't... He's not knowable. Do you mean you

29:16

can't know about Him or you just can't

29:19

have a personal engagement

29:21

with Him? Like, for example, I could know

29:24

about you, Tim. I can

29:26

know about you, but I could also know

29:28

you, too. Those are two different

29:30

things, all right? So, I'm not sure

29:32

what she's saying, but whatever it is

29:35

that she... When she gets down to

29:37

what she means, the question then

29:39

is... Now

29:44

I lost my thought, train of thought.

29:46

But once we get down to what

29:48

it is she means, that's

29:52

going to clarify some basic Religious

29:54

views, okay? And So I'd want to know, how is that not

29:56

religion? You know, just out of curiosity. The

30:00

But: But there's another problem here.

30:02

and this is the way she's

30:04

characterizing. She said, i'm doing this.

30:06

This is my truth. Okay, And

30:09

the question that might be asked

30:12

here is this is your truth.

30:15

Actually, True. Okay,

30:19

now I'm using the word. Truth in

30:21

a different way. Obviously, because when I

30:23

say for example, that I am having

30:26

summer session with him from Canada right

30:28

now and that's a true statement, I

30:30

mean something very particular. I mean, it's

30:33

a fact. And an armed

30:35

and if it's not affect and I'm

30:37

mistaken. For. Some reason, but

30:39

I'm mistaken. Okay, but the way

30:41

she's using the word truth is

30:43

Suzy and a very subjective way.

30:46

This is the way I personally.

30:48

I'm in as live out my religious

30:51

convictions. This is the content of my

30:53

religion, but it doesn't mean it has

30:55

to be the content of anybody elses

30:57

because it's mine my personal thing. So

31:00

this is the way I characterize it.

31:02

Hers as an ice cream, not an

31:04

insulin kind of thing or right I'd

31:06

I'd want to ask her about that

31:09

though. When people get away with this

31:11

language all the time in conversations. Well,

31:13

that's my truth. What? What? Well, okay

31:15

I'm is is that is it Actually

31:18

accept. What you say is you

31:20

are truth. Is it actually true? It.

31:23

As evil as is it really true? Are

31:25

you making this up as is a fantasy?

31:27

Is this of fact? Know she might say

31:30

well. Nobody could ever know that.

31:32

Know. If I. If. That's what she says.

31:34

I'm going to ask her, why would you say that nobody

31:36

ever knows there. Are. Can move.

31:38

That's even worse as she says

31:41

more aggressive a claim. If she

31:43

says nobody knows that's one thing.

31:45

if she says and nobody can

31:47

know, that's it. That's another thing

31:49

as an ad on rights and

31:51

I'd I'd wanna know why. Why

31:53

does she think that just because

31:55

she doesn't know. Why does she

31:57

think that. Nobody. Could

31:59

pass. We know about this and therefore it's

32:01

just a big guessing game in you believe whatever

32:04

you want that makes you feel good. Like.

32:06

Rough Seas explains so there's just a

32:08

mass of ambiguity and what she said.

32:10

yeah and if I were in a

32:12

copy this is I guess is that

32:15

is this an internet or email back

32:17

and forth I'd acting. Is

32:19

texting Aussi assists? It is

32:21

harder to have this conversation

32:23

in attacks because there's a

32:25

very important personal element that's

32:27

missing. Or. Right? I swear to

32:29

yeah that I I like, oh I don't I'm

32:31

I don't get over months. Or

32:34

a doorway out of the oh tortured

32:36

for much texting so I see yeah

32:38

well it's it's and is better than

32:41

nothing obviously but as the houses liabilities

32:43

and see I'm Amy and I were

32:45

talking or this morning ominous to arouse

32:47

about somebody having interaction with somebody else

32:50

who was just responding with a I

32:52

stuff that they gathered about the hundreds

32:54

of things and was dumping and on

32:56

that person and what Amy was. Pointing

32:59

out and this applies in

33:01

the taxi circumstances that that.

33:05

That. Kind of response that. The.

33:08

individuals talking about in our time.

33:10

I'm. On. The broadcast this

33:13

morning with Amy I'm not Pasig us

33:15

Your ask takes the personal element out

33:17

and you don't wanna take the bristle

33:19

element out? You don't. One just have

33:21

information flooding back and forth. You wanna

33:23

ideally be able to address the individual

33:25

so that you know how to respond

33:28

to each person pulsars and colossus. For

33:30

we want to go with people as

33:32

individuals and and you know I to

33:34

I kind of thing because they're this

33:36

as a human. Endeavor. it

33:38

is not just a kind

33:40

of a formal. I'm

33:42

religious activity so or but if if

33:45

you are you do a text and

33:47

this is this is A. These are

33:49

some of the questions that I that

33:51

have offered here that I think would

33:53

be helpful to see if she wants

33:55

to continue to engage. When you say

33:57

you're agnostic, you don't know. Do you

33:59

think. This is unknowable and why

34:01

would you say that and sounds to me

34:03

like you do have a religion. You.

34:06

Have a religion with a god. Some kind of

34:08

god at the center of it. And.

34:10

And then you have moral behavior that

34:13

you think is important. And

34:16

because she's already identified that there must be more

34:18

to it than that. And

34:20

I suspect. Butter.

34:23

But the the real question here is.

34:26

His. Quote: unquote your Truth.

34:29

Actually, True? Is it actually

34:31

so Are your beliefs sound?

34:33

Are they sexual? Because.

34:35

Of your truth. Turns. Out not

34:37

to be true. It doesn't Doesn't really make any

34:40

sense to call that a true that All. Could.

34:42

Be our sake snow and ice he

34:44

could be better. For people to say

34:46

this is my belief. Okay with

34:49

that the around because. You

34:51

know a belief is a holding that something

34:53

is so, but you may now be certain

34:55

of it and you could be completely wrong.

34:57

but you still think it's so that's what

35:00

it means to believe something. So here's my

35:02

belief. Okay, hot is your belief true Or

35:04

how could you know that? And course, this

35:07

is where her agnosticism might sounds like comes

35:09

in. But I think we can do a

35:11

lot better than just mere agnosticism. And by

35:13

the way, so does see which is why

35:16

she has some substance. To.

35:18

Her belief systems near the the,

35:20

the central of the of love.

35:22

What? Why is that? Most critically

35:24

important? I'm from her perspective, you

35:26

know? Yeah. So anyway and are

35:28

you might sticky bad it? And

35:30

you might even talk about your

35:32

own convictions about Jesus or are

35:34

some? they're hardly? I might and

35:36

I like it or. Or gabriel's

35:38

the other my wife at the Way. I

35:41

thought that's why when on a journey and I found

35:43

out. Quick. To got his

35:45

everything I mentioned not yell or

35:47

less good but here's how it

35:49

the liability in this is the

35:52

cleverness in terms of spiritual deception,

35:54

the cleverness of your truth. My

35:56

truth, that whole approach because you

35:58

can talk all day. While these

36:00

wonderful things that have happened in

36:03

your life the God is done

36:05

and people will smile and say

36:07

that's good, I'm glad you found

36:10

something that's your truth. but it's

36:12

not my truth. Noticed that The

36:14

deceptive Nyssa? Those words. Yeah

36:17

so anyway that would give yourself that hopefully

36:19

the work with but this is the kind

36:21

of say we run into with some frequency

36:23

so sell thank you Very much Good I

36:26

tell my wish I hadn't had more for

36:28

yeah that I could do that. Yeah okay,

36:30

will do the best you can and maybe

36:32

we'll hear from me again in the future.

36:34

Fact: I'd buddy by by. our

36:37

i us go to now I know my buttons

36:39

or work a here amos. Guy.

36:42

Or have. Did. You change. Did you

36:44

fix it? Kyle? A whole

36:46

class gonna sums up. The bearded

36:48

beast has. Works. Miracles here!

36:50

Let's see of this works all right, as

36:53

is Maggie Maggie Welcome to the show! Right

36:56

thing to do. So much for taking my com. Yeah,

36:59

you're so welcome from Cartersville, Georgia,

37:01

right? Was. Yeah.

37:03

Okay, glad to have you Maggie, What's on your mind?

37:07

Know anything against know if

37:09

it. You. Are coming up

37:11

on a theme. we are interacting a

37:13

little bit over. On.

37:16

This subject matter as. I

37:20

guess the descriptor as rescuing

37:22

actually others are like. The

37:25

concept of Over The Save Us From The

37:27

Father. About uses an said it

37:29

again. I'm sorry. Oh sure sure

37:31

it. On. It.

37:34

Was in regards to the current the to

37:36

eat as much as ah. Oh yeah,

37:38

I wrote a solid roundabouts out

37:40

that has actually been somewhat controversial

37:43

and and that's why I spent

37:45

on the time idea to try

37:47

to lay out a biblical case

37:49

for the fact that Jesus saved

37:51

us from the Father. So I'm

37:53

okay, so do you take exception

37:55

without is that what you want?

37:57

An Eskimo? Yeah.

38:00

Rick that funny how we need to give

38:02

a little closer as though. I'm

38:04

maybe a sort. Of understand

38:06

where it's coming from to they i

38:09

know a big on understanding. On.

38:12

Know. My. Context as

38:14

more fum coming out of the

38:16

background as. Spiritual. Abuse

38:19

and sort of. Or.

38:21

I I I don't like came out

38:23

as more of a pulpit. Very. Young.

38:26

And know. Elizabeth

38:29

big deal when I was

38:31

coming. To. Understand: penal

38:33

substitution Atonement theory. One

38:36

of the biggest things for me with

38:38

understanding that the father. Was. Good

38:40

in bed. He was not. Surges

38:43

is hateful. Them that is. Generally.

38:47

A how he would be described when. You

38:49

hear? Really? Angry.

38:51

Easiest talking the ones that sort

38:53

of rail roman god been a

38:55

big big movie that would it?

38:58

That was very important. need I

39:00

knew? That you know obviously

39:02

thought is wholly and he has a

39:04

right to judge them by. you know

39:06

the lead author like a good. Father

39:09

nurse and states. In. That regard. There

39:12

was a big emotional component.

39:15

And it. On I

39:17

was. My. Counselor

39:19

A. Great. Person

39:21

help Coffee. Is. Through

39:24

all of that is how. In

39:26

the ipad? don't. Understand that

39:28

to bother with good and loving

39:30

and the leave and penal substitution

39:32

the term in Arizona hear. Words

39:35

like either had the same from

39:37

the father that bring a whole

39:39

lotta. And I know so many

39:42

people. It brings a whole lot up for

39:44

even sure I have a lot Npc for

39:46

a beer. Is

39:48

a horrible stuff? Still, that's more

39:50

where it's coming from. I'm not

39:52

trying to like pack well known

39:54

her life preserver mine. I'm fine

39:57

with your point of view and

39:59

in disagree. With me of that's

40:01

what you you're doing I think you

40:03

are actually getting more of a personal

40:05

subjective contexts for the peace. You're not

40:08

so much giving us the a logical

40:10

response and I'm sympathetic to it. You

40:12

have to say what? what? To me.

40:15

The way I would I would understand this

40:17

is in this is the way I put

40:19

it in the peace. You can't that there

40:21

is good news about God, but you cannot

40:23

understand the good news without understanding the bad

40:25

news because the good news is in contrast.

40:28

To. The bad news and this is

40:30

why I started with the in that

40:32

portion of they piece that I wrote.

40:35

I started with where Paul starts and

40:37

Romans chapter one with God's Anger. Okay,

40:40

And even Jesus himself said.

40:43

Ah, Listen John Chapter three: It might

40:45

have been John's comment or rather than

40:47

Jesus specific comment. But

40:50

odd that he who believes in the

40:52

sun has life. He does not believe

40:55

the wrath. Of. God

40:57

abides on him. Now

40:59

wrath His anger. And. That

41:02

we know that God is angry toward

41:04

sin. But. Out of love,

41:06

he made provision to deal with

41:08

his anger. So. His love

41:10

can be freely express towards us who

41:12

turned to him. And that's

41:14

the message. I think that was a

41:16

transforming message to you. The love of the

41:19

father. But the love of the father

41:21

doesn't exist in a vacuum. On

41:23

the love of the Father is

41:26

available to us in virtue of

41:28

what. The. Sun has done on

41:30

our behalf and us entering into that. It's

41:33

the anger of God towards sinners,

41:35

not just sin in the abstract,

41:37

and I did spend a lot

41:40

of time trying to make this

41:42

distinction. That that are makes the

41:44

good news so good. And.

41:48

And gives us reason to rejoice.

41:50

Therefore been justified by his face.

41:52

We have peace. With

41:54

God. That's. Romans chapter five

41:56

or swan and then and then he

41:58

says and we have the in hope

42:01

of the glory of God Paul's excited

42:03

about the fact that we do have

42:05

peace with God because of the Justification

42:07

accounts you Faith in Christ. If

42:10

though, people are approaching. The

42:13

God of all creation. Of

42:15

as if he's merely a

42:17

benevolent. Uncle. Or

42:19

something. I'm they're not approaching the

42:21

got increase in the way he

42:23

actually is. That

42:26

the scriptures statement about God

42:28

regarding all human beings that

42:30

have rebelled against him is

42:32

very clear and repeated frequently.

42:34

But. At the same time out of

42:36

his love, his providing. A

42:39

means of forgiveness. So

42:41

that his wrath and anger towards

42:44

rebels and that would be all

42:46

of us. To.

42:48

His appeased. After

42:50

the biblical orders pro piss see a did.

42:54

So that then. His. Love

42:56

can be freely express towards

42:58

us, so it isn't it. I

43:01

don't have my take away is not that. oh

43:03

we have this angry rafol got a nest the

43:05

end of it. Might.

43:08

Take away as goddess mad. At.

43:11

At Sinful People. But. Has

43:13

made of provision, For. Justice

43:15

to a mad so they

43:18

heated instead live out his

43:20

love. Towards. Even sinful

43:22

people, even while we're yet sinners. Christ

43:24

died for us. pulses aromas so that's

43:26

a sense of it. And I I.

43:30

Uh, maybe may I'm not sure

43:32

exactly. If

43:34

your concern is just an emotional one

43:37

and this is just kind of stirs

43:39

up some things and knew that reminds

43:41

you of of of of an ugly

43:43

past and ah I'm. You

43:46

know I can. I'm sympathetic to the out

43:48

absolutely. But. It

43:50

doesn't. It doesn't change that calculus

43:52

of God's character, the and what

43:54

he has done on our health.

43:57

To. Satisfy his own.

44:00

On his own. Moral.

44:03

Good requirement for justice.

44:06

Regarding. People who have broken his law time

44:08

and time again. Does. It does

44:10

that make sense to your? does that help at

44:12

all when I see it that way? I've

44:16

I've like the way you described it that

44:18

way I think. The. Biggest

44:20

thing Live. With where it

44:23

is. Worth.

44:25

Thirty powerful and marriage as. I'm.

44:30

I. Know sometimes. We. Say

44:32

one thing were thinking i have no. Money.

44:34

On here is it pleases you weren't quite

44:36

as yeah. Well well

44:38

it sure what to. I'm sorry Maggie,

44:40

Go ahead. At.

44:43

It if martin from i know you

44:45

want to reach people and I'm saying.

44:48

On. It's wording been a hang up

44:50

and I. I. Didn't hear anything

44:52

you said just now that I guess the.

44:54

Green. Lanky to those goods. Well, I

44:56

I do want to reach people what,

44:58

but I the the only appropriate way

45:00

to reach people as to speak to

45:03

them truthfully about God. Okay, known that

45:05

way of speaking about God can be

45:07

done in numbers of different ways as

45:09

we try to adjust to the people

45:11

were speaking with. Okay, and sounds like

45:13

the people you had in your life

45:15

adjusted their message to really, really well.

45:18

Okay, The thing I was dealing with

45:20

in this way Paul says and Colossus

45:22

for so that we know how to.

45:24

Respond to each person were trying to

45:26

be personal. And. Jesus said.

45:29

you know. Or I should

45:31

say Paul said, when I'm tina choose I'm

45:33

at that I speak one way. When I'm

45:35

deal it's intel say speak another way Essentially

45:37

and a Jesus spoke in John chapter three

45:39

to Nyc Demas in a very different way

45:42

than he spoke with. Ah, the Woman at

45:44

The Well. In John Chapter

45:46

Four. Very different approach, so

45:48

that's entirely legitimate. Okay, I

45:50

was dealing principally with a

45:52

theological issue not within an

45:54

evangelist miss you so much,

45:56

but a theological issue where

45:58

people were claim. The that a

46:01

particular thing about the nature of

46:03

the work of the Cross and

46:05

I've looked at these different series

46:07

the the You Know The Ransom

46:09

to Satan and Christus Victor in

46:11

a all these different theories about

46:13

the atonement and as I look

46:15

at them they they don't. They

46:18

don't seem to match with the

46:20

scripture. What the scripture actually says

46:22

all the good things, the freedom

46:24

from Satan and freedom from San

46:27

and and reconciliation with the father

46:29

and at one meant to you

46:31

know being restored him relationship with

46:33

a father. All of that slows

46:35

from something else. There's a problem.

46:38

That. Needs to be solved. And until

46:40

that problem is solved, none of

46:42

those other good things are available

46:44

to us. They're just not. And

46:46

by the way, the language that

46:49

I choose chosen there was who

46:51

have almost universally. Examples.

46:53

Of biblical language, a message on three

46:55

but the wrath. Of God abides

46:57

on him who some he didn't like that

46:59

wrath were there are I might out there.

47:01

I know, I know, I'm just sitting with

47:04

you but he's just a raffle God Jesus.

47:06

As for God's will have the world that

47:08

he gave his only begotten son that whoever

47:10

believes in him were not perish but have

47:13

everlasting life for the in the the sundin

47:15

come into the world to to judge the

47:17

world not this time but to say that

47:19

the world might be saved to him. But

47:22

then he adds right after that and I

47:24

don't want to get it wrong. some turning

47:26

right. Now to that his

47:28

his arm. He. Who believes

47:31

in here is not judge but he

47:33

who does not believe. Has

47:35

been judged already. Because he

47:37

is not believed in the name of the only begotten

47:39

son of God and this is the judgment. That.

47:41

The latest come into the world

47:43

and men loved the darkness rather

47:45

than light for these are evil.

47:47

I'm so there you got a

47:49

very dark saying that Jesus is

47:51

saying right next to the passage

47:54

that everyone quotes about the Love

47:56

of the Father And then later

47:58

on on the chapter. The

48:00

wrath of gotta buy done him

48:02

who does doesn't believe so the

48:04

text is just sick with this

48:06

kind of language you know as

48:08

a i'll tell you something that

48:10

will surprise you. I'm especially given

48:12

the way we characterized things. Now

48:14

in the Book of Acts there

48:17

are thirteen times the Gospels preached

48:19

okay either to individuals or groups

48:21

or I starting in. Exchequer

48:24

to with the Pentecostal certainly by

48:26

Peter Right. There

48:28

is not a single time where the

48:30

gospel streets in the Book of Acts

48:33

were any individual doing the preaching. Talks

48:36

about the love of God. There

48:41

is no place where he talks about the

48:44

love of God. No I another repeat

48:46

disputing the love of God is certainly

48:48

manifest in the Book of Acts. The

48:50

word love doesn't even appear in the entire

48:52

book of Acts. So what I'm saying

48:54

is what the. What

48:57

The people? The people who are

48:59

actually trained by Jesus. To.

49:01

Take the message out. They

49:03

communicated the message in a very different

49:05

way and a lot of times the

49:08

way the community said it was the

49:10

danger of judgment that would fall upon

49:12

people because of their rebellion against God.

49:17

Is as as doesn't Is that interesting

49:19

that the people Jesus trained. To.

49:21

Follow after him actually took this

49:24

approach. Now.

49:26

Obviously wasn't because God is not

49:28

loving. But. They're

49:31

talking about the problem that's getting in

49:33

the way of us experiencing God's love.

49:35

And that's the problem that. Makes

49:38

is vulnerable to God's justice and

49:40

his the punishment and route. and

49:42

this is what Jesus fixed. So.

49:49

What He. Doesn't. Say. Get

49:51

book of that. If they're

49:53

I think it. Up for a

49:55

second? I'm. Also

49:57

thinking about know. Better.

50:00

Guide us. Down some

50:02

of his letters, You're

50:04

familiar with. Oh I think

50:06

it right. Okay,

50:09

I guess I'm a missing some of this

50:12

here. You're talking about the letters of Paul

50:14

and something he said is that right? Here.

50:17

We have is you're mentioning people

50:19

either directly out of. Might

50:22

not have been with original Twelve.

50:24

Oh. I figure. Is

50:26

encounter with him. After guilt

50:28

or. Take. Us away from any.

50:32

His. Work among the pigeons housing. I

50:34

told the fact that. With.

50:36

What you're saying about are you really

50:38

really doesn't matter that you're dealing with

50:41

them with a very hard. Hard,

50:43

Hard. He. Might be third. Break.

50:47

Through that a little if you're dealing

50:49

with. A more. Tender

50:51

hearted individual or something as. Well

50:53

luck dinners right with. This is something that

50:55

I'm I'd I agreed with you earlier that

50:58

we have to him and when we're having

51:00

one one conversation we have to be careful

51:02

in how we communicate isn't That was a

51:04

comparison of I mentioned the difference between Jesus

51:07

would take a Demas John three and with

51:09

a woman as well. And

51:11

John for and so I completely

51:13

of from the approach that folks

51:16

took with you and they had

51:18

and have this salutary effect on

51:20

you as you saw the site

51:22

of Jesus and In and God

51:24

the Father that really helped rescue

51:26

you okay arms my point viewed

51:29

you mentioned earlier the All About

51:31

Winning people and the I just

51:33

think it's ironic that I'm in

51:35

the Book of Acts those people

51:37

who Jesus actually trained. On.

51:40

Communicated a gospel and the truth

51:42

about the father and about Jesus

51:44

in a different way characteristically than

51:46

we do. That's all I'm saying

51:48

and desist amateur assisted a simple

51:51

is it a little bit. was

51:53

a stoner to me when I

51:55

actually did the study to find

51:57

that out. Wow, look at that.

52:00

I actually isolated every single occasion of

52:02

their to look at what was the

52:04

can't hear what was the communication okay

52:06

and so lot of was or morning.

52:09

And the member that Jesus said

52:11

and john, what's sixteen. The

52:14

upper of discourse that when the

52:16

holy spirit comes he he will

52:18

convict of sin and righteousness. okay

52:20

of us and ah and and

52:23

that's kind of what happens. you

52:25

know so when when the horoscope

52:27

begins working but the others your

52:29

kids in the background or as

52:31

as that of. What? Is that?

52:35

My. Apologies. Oh the guy. I

52:37

think that as great as there's

52:40

been any. Let.

52:42

The World Net okay answer. I know, where

52:44

is your any way it'll get Gives you

52:46

something to chew on? Is that alright? Would

52:49

just let you think about that and I'm

52:51

glad. I'm so glad that you were rescued

52:53

out of your difficult circumstances. I'm glad that

52:55

it was love of God. that was a

52:58

profound factor in the love of the Father

53:00

for you. because the love of the Father

53:02

certainly there for you. And that's it. That's

53:04

the it's really, really important. So

53:07

I'm glad for that. Would just leave it a doubt about that.

53:12

Now that this folly of

53:14

on. And. and it's fucking

53:17

thing other for the help out. For

53:19

yeah, I've I do

53:21

appreciate that in a Pc

53:23

you taking. My oh Air!

53:26

And I do want to mention that.

53:28

While. Has. Blessed me a lot

53:31

with a lot of time as a you're pretty soon

53:33

as they forget the say that I wanted to mention

53:35

it. All right. Well thanks so much for the

53:37

call Maggie! As

53:39

though he already to hear but my no

53:41

thanks or I will resist Get about five

53:43

more minutes. You're homeless the that but I

53:46

as a gray call for Maggie make is

53:48

made a really good point and that is

53:50

different people responded different things. I get them.

53:53

The Peace I wrote. Was.

53:55

Not of Angeles stick. It wasn't meant to

53:57

be, was meant to clarify what scripture. Teachers

54:00

About the atonement.

54:03

All. Right. And the atonement is

54:05

not principally about at one

54:07

moment. Although that's

54:10

the way many people characterize

54:12

it on the the the

54:14

concept of being one with

54:16

God is a consequence of

54:19

the atonement. It is not

54:21

what the atonement is. I'm

54:25

trying to think about the maybe the best way

54:27

to characterize it. You have to people that care

54:29

about each other, but they're separated by a distance.

54:33

And. Are they can't be together

54:35

because Iirc. Separated.

54:38

And so they're. One

54:40

gets on a plane and flies to

54:42

the other and they are now reunited.

54:44

So the. The. Missing

54:47

goofy kind of illustration. but

54:50

the means of transportation is

54:52

what accomplices the reuniting. In

54:55

the same way, there is a problem

54:58

between man and God. And

55:00

there is a golf there is a bit of

55:03

there was a. There

55:06

was a good approach. A

55:08

difficulty. What's the difficulty? Well.

55:10

We have sinned against God. And

55:14

that results in God

55:16

being angry. Hadaway

55:18

know that because that's what

55:20

Paul says in Romans one among

55:23

other places for the wrath

55:25

of God. Is

55:27

being revealed. Against.

55:29

All ungodly innocent man whose

55:32

suppress the truth and on

55:34

righteousness. I think the word there

55:36

is or day. The. Greek word. It's.

55:39

Like it or and in that we

55:41

get orgy I guess is that the

55:43

it? Is this this explosive, deep profound

55:46

anger. Why? Why is got so mad

55:48

because of what we've done. Each.

55:51

And every one of us, that's the

55:53

problem. Now what?

55:56

Will. That's the problem the Jesus came

55:58

to fix who sent us. The Father

56:00

The father. So one who's angry And

56:02

the Father is the one who sense

56:04

Jesus to do what needs to be

56:06

done to. Satisfy.

56:10

The. Anger. oh that's just appeasement. What

56:12

you call it whatever you want, but

56:14

it's what's the scripture describes is going

56:16

on. The.

56:19

Scripture word is Propitiation.

56:23

That means a satisfaction. There's got

56:25

to be expiation. First, a cleansing.

56:29

That. Then satisfies the

56:31

anger. That.

56:34

Then makes it possible for forgiveness

56:37

to be extended. And

56:41

it's interesting I the

56:43

Old Testament sacrificial system.

56:46

And ah and there you have

56:48

a sacrifice being made. Know the

56:50

writer Hebrews makes a very important

56:52

point and this is all in

56:54

the article. He says the blood

56:56

of balls and goat can never

56:58

take away since. It

57:01

was a temporary means and then

57:03

it explains why Jesus had to

57:05

com a body you have prepared

57:07

for me. Sacrifice

57:10

compared to the imperfect sacrifice any recent that

57:12

you on as it for our our friends

57:15

Thank you for being part of it. Great

57:17

koval here for stand the reason give them

57:19

however.