0:28

Hello Friends were cocoa. Here stand to reason

0:30

is the show of God. You're part of it.

0:33

Thank you for joining me! Eight five

0:36

five to Four Three Nine Nine seven

0:38

Five is the number you can call

0:40

during the live show, which is now

0:42

for me a four to six on

0:44

Tuesday. Afternoon and

0:46

early evening. A Los Angeles time.

0:48

I'm still a kind of i'm.

0:51

Processing. The response to

0:54

my recent solid ground. Ah, it's

0:56

something that I have been putting

0:58

the other for a couple of

1:00

years because of the push back

1:03

on one aspect. Of. The

1:05

story of reality relating to the

1:07

cross or that I've received an

1:09

number of letters. Some very long

1:11

letters were tons of vs. And.

1:14

I've saved all this and the

1:16

my thoughts in musings about it

1:18

over time in a file and

1:20

then pull that fi allowed Decided

1:22

I wanted. Respond. Here

1:24

and try to put together. A

1:27

characterization of Arm of The

1:29

Atonement and what was going

1:31

on there are that is.

1:34

I'm. Affirmed.

1:38

In. Scripture. In. My

1:40

view it seems to me and this is part

1:42

of my own. My.

1:45

Own. Frustration here are

1:47

the it's it with. It.

1:49

It appears. Completely.

1:52

Clear. And

1:55

are ought not be controversial.

1:58

On. As I was talking. The and

2:00

it has to do with the

2:02

anger of the father towards sinners

2:04

that needs to be. Satisfied.

2:08

Appears. Propitiation, whatever worthy

2:10

you want to use. and people.

2:12

Lots of times they choose words.

2:14

They're. Appeased. Really, we

2:16

have to please god as a while. Dig

2:19

trees whatever you want, but the a debt

2:21

has to be paid. We.

2:24

Owe him. And the

2:27

debt has to be paid. So there are different. Ways

2:29

of characterizing this in the

2:32

New Testament, but it's largely

2:34

forensic language that is a

2:37

characterization, but there's also brass

2:39

language. All. Over. The.

2:41

New Testament and The Old Testament

2:43

and the A D of the

2:46

Wrath is satisfied. By. A

2:48

substitute. Jesus.

2:50

Himself, it's interesting as we're talking.

2:54

Just before the show, Amy and I.

2:57

See mention Romans Five. And do you remember

2:59

that passage? You exactly where it's at a

3:01

Me. I want to just look it up

3:04

here and read it. It's Romans Five. It

3:06

has to be doing has has to do

3:08

with we're at odds with God. I think

3:11

the word, his enemies. Ah,

3:13

we were enemies of God before

3:16

Christ came. Romans

3:19

Five Ten Okay, let me just

3:21

get past actually or know Amy

3:23

as the Romans experts are. She

3:25

really was right on top of

3:27

this one. And here's what it

3:29

says: For while

3:31

we. Were. Enemies.

3:36

We. Were reconciled to God.

3:39

To. The death of his son. While.

3:45

We. Were enemies. I.

3:48

Don't know how else to take this. A

3:52

It isn't as if we dislike

3:54

God, but he's benevolent towards us.

3:56

I mean, without qualification. He's.

3:59

The Nice: The over there no

4:01

with this is a hostile relationship.

4:05

Gods. Mad at us because we have

4:07

rebelled against him. He's the sovereign, He's

4:09

the king. It's.

4:12

An enemy relationship. That's.

4:16

What it says here in Romans five

4:18

and in fact is not just like

4:20

I'm isolating versus there is a. A

4:23

line of thinking that. That

4:25

Paul offers. That.

4:28

Is he moves through the Book of Romans.

4:32

Here's. The problem. People.

4:35

Are with out excuse he says that

4:37

twice and Romans one. And

4:40

doesn't matter how you slice it. People.

4:43

Are bad. And.

4:46

Everybody is shut up completely

4:48

under sin. For.

4:51

All of sand. And fallen

4:53

short of the glory of God. And.

4:57

How do you fix that? Because.

5:00

It isn't just that we send and there's

5:02

a in the abstract. I'm

5:04

that's not good. It's

5:07

that we are sitting against

5:10

someone. It's.

5:13

Personal. That's.

5:15

Why in Romans Five here? First.

5:19

Ten it says we are

5:22

enemies. And why

5:24

we were. Enemies. We.

5:27

Were reconcile while we are of you

5:29

know. Against him he moved

5:31

towards us. That's a I mean

5:33

that's what makes the at the

5:36

the The Love Of God so

5:38

incredible. It's easy and

5:40

I'm paraphrasing here from some other place.

5:42

Aromas: It's easy to love people who

5:44

love you. And.

5:46

Who are nice to you? but. God

5:49

shows his love towards us and

5:51

even while we were yet sinners,

5:54

Christ. Died for us. Even.

5:57

While there was this enemy relationship.

6:01

And that's why in Romans of five

6:03

at the beginning you see therefore being

6:05

having been. Justified

6:07

by faith, we have peace with God. Through.

6:10

Our Lord Jesus Christ by the way, notices this

6:12

is not the piece. Of

6:14

God. That's. Different. Piece

6:17

of God is a subjective thing.

6:20

Be anxious for nothing but now

6:22

everything with parents application with Thanksgiving

6:24

Make your request known to God

6:26

and the and a piece of

6:29

God. With. Surpasses

6:31

all understanding showed. Guard your hearts and

6:33

your minds across seas as that's the

6:35

subjective thing. We. Pray

6:37

We put it in God's hands. We let it

6:40

go and then. We

6:42

have a and there's an effective

6:44

element their we feel different. That's.

6:47

Not what star who had to pause referring

6:50

to in. Romans. Five,

6:52

This is peace with God.

6:55

That. Means God is not angry at

6:57

us anymore. Two.

7:00

Groups that were. Hostile

7:02

towards each other, For.

7:04

Very particular reasons we were hostile: A God:

7:07

because we are sinners. God was house interest

7:09

because his God is morally perfect in his

7:11

the sovereign. This been wronged. Those.

7:17

Two groups have been reconciled. There.

7:19

Is no peace with. Each

7:22

other, which is why we rejoice.

7:28

We. Have also obtained are introduction.

7:31

By. Faith into this grace in which we

7:33

stand and we exult in the hope of the

7:35

glory of God. And this helps

7:37

us. By the way, with tribulation that comes

7:39

next week also result in our tribulation. Knowing.

7:44

That. Tribulation brings about perseverance of perseverance,

7:46

proven care to prove a character. Hope

7:48

and Hope does not disappoint. Because.

7:51

The love of God has been poured out

7:53

with in our hearts to the Holy Spirit

7:55

who was given to was the Holy Spirit

7:57

was given to us when we believed. When

8:00

we trusted in Christ. And.

8:03

Then the love of God is poured out. Because.

8:07

The barriers. Have. Been

8:09

removed. While.

8:13

We're still helpless of the right time. Christ

8:15

died for the ungodly for one would hardly

8:18

die for righteous man though perhaps for the

8:20

good man, someone would dare even to die.

8:22

but God demonstrates his own love toward us.

8:25

In that while weary of sinners, christ.

8:27

Died. For us, much more than

8:30

having now been justified by his

8:32

blood, we shall be saved from

8:34

the ras. To

8:37

him. The. Wrath of

8:39

God in my translation of gotta know, tell Us

8:41

To It's not a the original bit. we're a

8:43

where else is there are coming from. That's the

8:45

point. Saved!

8:48

From the rescue him. For.

8:52

While we were enemies. Were.

8:55

Reconciled. To. God. To

8:58

the death of his son. Is

9:00

the death of his son

9:02

that is the means of

9:04

reconciliation. What? Was it

9:06

about the death of the Sun

9:09

that was able to accomplish reconciliation?

9:13

That's the nature. That's the question of

9:15

the atonement. And I answer their question

9:17

from the texts that speak to them.

9:20

It. Was a suffering of Jesus. It is

9:22

impossible for the blood of bulls and going

9:25

to take away sin. Does

9:29

he says when he comes into the world. Sacrifice

9:33

and burn off ratio of

9:35

not desired but a body

9:37

you have prepared for me.

9:39

Behold I have come to

9:41

do your will. Oh god.

9:45

The Father prepares a body for Jesus.

9:47

The incarnations of that body can be

9:49

the perfect sacrifices is the whole point,

9:52

especially of Hebrew. stan. A.

9:55

it i don't know why this is confusing

9:57

the people i am just misses hide I

10:01

can see how it can be distasteful to

10:03

some. It

10:07

just is mystifying to me that it's

10:12

there's such aggressive pushback. I just

10:14

read an email with the person

10:17

was very, hmm, how

10:20

could I characterize this? Let's

10:23

say you use very strong language

10:30

to describe what

10:32

he thought was an inaccurate

10:34

view of God on

10:36

the cross. He actually called it blasphemy and that

10:40

essentially only an idiot, you know,

10:43

a nitwit would believe that would be me. It

10:46

wasn't exactly his words but something

10:48

to that effect. Okay, I'm

10:52

just mystified. I am

10:54

honestly mystified because

10:57

I think the text is so clear

11:02

and this is what I wanted people to see what

11:04

the text actually teaches and have

11:06

that bring them to a deeper and more

11:11

profound appreciation for the

11:14

love of God that

11:17

provided a means of forgiveness at

11:21

His expense. It

11:24

cost God something to forgive us so

11:27

that we could be rescued that

11:30

we could be saved. Anyway,

11:32

I had one other thing I wanted to mention

11:34

to you. It's kind of a commercial and then

11:37

I'll get into some other calls. If

11:41

you haven't read, by the way, the solid ground,

11:43

you go to our website simply titled, Why the

11:45

Blood. If you don't

11:47

receive it on a regular basis in the upper

11:49

right hand corner, it says subscribe. Click

11:52

the button and subscribe. Is that where it is on our website?

11:54

Upper right hand corner, I think it is. Subscribe.

11:56

That means you're going to get stuff from us free. You're

11:59

going to get. These pieces we called Solid Ground

12:01

which is an article by three Thousand Thirty Five

12:03

Hundred Words every other month. And

12:06

by the way, on. Every

12:10

book that I've written, Every

12:13

chapter almost without excess exception came

12:15

from a prior solid ground. So

12:17

what? You're going to get his

12:19

all the good stuff before somebody

12:21

else has to pay for a

12:23

book. Okay, Anyway,

12:27

You can sign up for that, you get solid ground,

12:29

and ultimately monsieur get a one page mentoring letter. Eight

12:33

hundred words. This

12:36

way that I can. And other

12:38

staffers who participate in how About.

12:41

Ah, In writing what we're going to be sending you

12:43

things and a regular basis of you sign up for them.

12:47

And then you will have already received a

12:49

Why The Blood. Which came out

12:51

the first of May. Mrs.

12:57

Okay will do that it in a bit.

12:59

I wanted a mentioned or something and at

13:02

a at us a product we have and

13:04

I don't know what the cost is not

13:06

as I'm not trying to sell products but

13:08

it is for sale. I'm trying to train

13:11

up disciples. A many,

13:13

many years ago I taught a course called

13:15

The Bible Fast Forward. It. Was

13:17

actually the course when I was

13:19

in charge of a program at

13:21

Hope Chaplin her most a beach

13:23

called the Ah Hope Chapel Ministry

13:25

Institute Hc I and it was

13:27

is our way of doing adult

13:29

education. We had courses you taken.

13:31

One of them was the Bible.

13:33

Fast forward that was when I

13:35

met Melinda Penner who was the

13:37

cofounder Standard Recent thirty one years

13:39

ago. And

13:42

I met her in their class. She

13:44

was a student there. And

13:46

this was a class that I

13:48

put together because. early

13:51

on in my christian life i had

13:53

been given some teaching at this crazy

13:55

place called the jesus christ lane bar

13:57

house and kind of a crushing can

13:59

be that I

14:02

lived at for two and a half years right

14:04

after he became a Christian during the Jesus movement.

14:08

And there was a course that

14:11

gave me an overview of

14:14

Scripture that positioned

14:17

the covenants

14:19

of the Old Testament in a

14:21

way that I could understand their

14:23

relationship to Jesus in the New

14:26

Testament. Alright? And what

14:28

I have done in these what eight

14:31

sessions and they're 50 minutes each is

14:35

I give a practical in the same spirit

14:37

of that course that I had that helped me so

14:39

much I wanted to give two

14:41

other students and so this was birthed

14:43

in H CMI Hope Chapel Ministry Institute

14:46

but also we

14:48

revived that course and

14:50

I upgraded it and did

14:54

recordings in a few years back so

14:56

that it would be available on DVD

14:58

and you could watch it there. Maybe

15:01

we got mp3s I don't know if you're so want to listen

15:03

to it but and

15:06

there's a workbook that goes with it and it's about

15:08

150 pages that you print it

15:10

out it's a PDF and

15:12

if you print it out it's basically

15:15

the entire syllabus. You

15:17

don't have to take notes it's all right there for

15:19

you okay and

15:21

it gives a practical historical overview of

15:24

the Old Testament emphasizing

15:26

the unfolding plan of salvation as

15:28

God reveals it through his covenants

15:30

with the nation of Israel and

15:34

in the fulfillment of those covenants in

15:36

the person of Jesus of Nazareth and

15:38

what you're going to get here is

15:40

an understanding of the unity of the

15:42

Bible through God's plan

15:45

of salvation in a

15:47

way that you probably never grasped it

15:49

before all right many

15:52

of you have read the story of reality

15:54

that's great that gives you an overview but

15:56

notice how you go from God man to Jesus

16:00

God, man, Jesus, cross resurrection. Those are the

16:03

five key words of the plot line of

16:05

the story. Well,

16:07

between man, Genesis 3, and Jesus,

16:12

Matthew chapter 1, there's

16:14

a whole lot of stuff. There's

16:16

like thousands of years in the entire history

16:19

of the nation of Israel. And what the

16:21

Bible fast-forward does is it fills

16:23

in that gap with

16:26

theology. And

16:28

it's more complicated because

16:31

the Hebrew Scriptures are complicated. And what

16:33

I try to do is help you

16:35

to understand how these things all are

16:37

woven together. Because if

16:39

you don't understand the covenants of the Old Testament, you're

16:41

going to have a hard time understanding a whole bunch

16:43

of stuff in the New Testament. And

16:47

in this seminar, you'll be able to, here's a

16:49

couple of things that I go over, identify the

16:51

unifying theme of the entire Bible. You'll

16:54

be able to explain five ways

16:57

the Jews are God's chosen people.

16:59

You'll be able to chart the 12 main historical

17:01

events of the nation of Israel, starting

17:04

with the call of Abraham and ending with Jesus

17:06

the Messiah. You'll

17:08

have an historical overview. You know how this

17:10

all fits together. You'll

17:13

be able to list the basic elements of the

17:15

Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, and the

17:17

New Covenant. So those are the key ones. And

17:20

also understand the relevance of those covenants

17:23

for today. And

17:26

also see, and this to me is the

17:28

coolest thing, is see how the events

17:30

and the covenants and the promises

17:32

of the Old Testament come

17:35

to their perfect focus and

17:37

fulfillment in Christ. Which,

17:39

by the way, is what we're talking about a little bit with the

17:42

piece I wrote, Why the Blood, and the blood atonement. It

17:45

didn't just fall out of the sky. There's a

17:48

deep, profound history in

17:51

the practices, the religious practices of

17:53

ancient Israel as

17:55

dictated by God that ties directly

17:57

into Jesus' own

17:59

sacrifice. on the cross. And

18:02

hopefully you see that the Bible presents one cohesive

18:06

plan of salvation. So

18:09

I'm going to mention this more in the future just

18:11

because I think this is an overlooked tool

18:13

or resource for you. It

18:19

is one of the greatest things that ever

18:21

happened to me in my Christian life to

18:23

have the understanding that

18:26

I try to pass on

18:29

in this educational material

18:31

that we call the Bible

18:34

fast-forward. Okay so that's

18:36

available for you. You go to sdr.org and go

18:38

to the store and just

18:40

check that out. I think we have mp3s. The videos

18:43

are there. I don't know how long

18:45

ago we did that. I don't

18:48

think I was completely gray when we did that.

18:50

It was maybe 10 years ago right? I

18:54

did it at my church or a home church in

18:56

Thousand Oaks. They provided the venue in

18:58

the audience and it was great. It worked out. So I

19:00

hope you consider getting that. Alright let's

19:04

take a little break here and then we'll

19:06

come back to our callers on standard

19:08

reason. Do

19:10

you want to become a more knowledgeable

19:12

Christian ambassador without sitting through a formal

19:14

course on apologetics? Well we've made that

19:16

possible for you through our SDR quick

19:18

reference app. Available for free on iTunes

19:20

and Google Play, the SDR quick reference

19:22

app holds a wealth of information summarizing

19:24

what you need to know on a

19:26

range of topics. Learn how

19:28

to defend the faith, see how other

19:31

worldviews compare to Christianity, and master the

19:33

biblical view of morality all through short

19:35

engaging videos. Before you know it you'll

19:37

be well versed on a number of

19:39

important apologetics topics. In Addition:

19:42

The Quick Reference app also includes a

19:44

Bible with text and audio as well

19:46

as some featured SDR resources, all to

19:48

enhance your learning experience. The SDR Quick

19:50

Reference app will equip you to engage

19:52

in thoughtful conversation about the key issues

19:55

of life from classical Christian perspective. Visit

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iTunes or the Google Play Store Today

19:59

and. Download the Str quip reference

20:01

at and if you enjoy the At, make

20:03

sure you give it a five star review.

20:07

Friends. Or be a like this broadcast.

20:09

I know you'll love Hashtag Str asks.

20:11

It's are shorter twenty minute podcast where

20:13

I am paired with a wonderful Amy

20:15

Hall and together we answer the questions

20:17

you send us on twitter hashtag s

20:20

tier. Ask his release twice a week

20:22

mondays and Thursdays and it's only about

20:24

twenty minutes long so it's perfect to

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listen to on your morning jog or

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while driving around running errands or cleaning

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your garage or just plain laughing at

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home. Amy and I tackle your questions

20:35

on theology and ethics and culture. And

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Loss more. Offering our insight on

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the questions you're asking or the

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challenges you face. You can listen

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send us your questions on

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Twitter Using the name of

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the podcast hashtag of Tier

20:55

asks that hashtag a serious.

21:09

Problem is you're finished the season

21:11

for reality, but we wanted or

21:14

know we're already planning and we

21:16

have been doing it for months.

21:18

The next season of Reality starting

21:20

in September and Southern California, October

21:22

in Seattle, november in Minneapolis with

21:24

February in. Dallas

21:27

barge in Philly? an April? we're

21:29

not sure. Ah, We

21:31

don't have a home. Yeah for the

21:33

and we need a home in the

21:35

South East. Aerial Okay we been in

21:37

Birmingham a number of years. Words: they

21:39

get what Atlanta arm were looking for

21:41

a home. So if you know of

21:43

a church sick hold that least three

21:46

thousand p people. Possess. or

21:48

look an hour or so we

21:50

don't outgrow it right away and

21:52

ah with with a staff that is

21:54

and it is interested in what we

21:56

do and it's really important that we

21:59

have top-down buy-in from the

22:01

staff. It's a big event and it's

22:03

a great feather in the church's cap.

22:06

We'd love to talk with them about

22:08

that event coming up and

22:10

about having a home in

22:13

about a year for

22:16

our next reality. So if you have

22:19

some ideas about that or

22:21

have a church where you're

22:23

interested in that, contact Dawn

22:25

Yell D-A-W-N-I-E-L-L-E Dawn

22:28

Yell at

22:32

str.org. Dawn Yell

22:34

at str.org. And

22:38

all the information that we have for next

22:40

year's reality, it's going to be a focus

22:42

on the Word of God and the theme

22:44

is, It is Written

22:48

and the website will be live

22:50

May 14. Okay, May

22:52

14 realityapologetics.com. And incidentally, we also

22:54

need a Southern California home for

22:56

the fall of 25. Not the

22:59

fall of 24, we got

23:01

that covered, we'll be at

23:03

Biola. But the fall of

23:05

25, we need a home there too

23:07

in Southern Cal. Okay, same idea. Big

23:10

church and

23:13

ideally around 3,000 or something like

23:16

that with classrooms.

23:19

Four breakouts, 10 breakouts is what

23:21

we characteristically have. So take that 3,000 divided by

23:23

10, you see the size of room

23:26

that we have. We need rooms

23:28

that hold 300 people, something like that depending on the

23:31

actual numbers, but you get the idea. Once

23:33

again, Dawn Yell at str.org.

23:35

Alright, let's go to

23:37

Nancy in Ontario, Canada.

23:40

Nancy, welcome to Stand to Reason. Hi

23:43

Greg, so appreciate you taking

23:45

my call. I appreciate your

23:47

wise counsel. Thank you. Question

23:49

for you, could you

23:52

suggest two to three starter questions

23:55

to ask a prospective

23:57

speaker that

23:59

we would be in to a youth retreat.

24:03

So we're just trying to get a sense of

24:06

denominational differences or anything like that

24:08

but more so just with the

24:10

various progressive leanings

24:13

of some how we

24:15

could ascertain. Sure okay this is

24:17

good. So your

24:19

concern is maybe bringing someone in who's

24:21

a little bit too progressive is that

24:24

right? Yeah exactly. Well

24:26

I think a couple

24:28

of really obvious questions. Well maybe here's the

24:31

best way for me to frame this and

24:33

that is the way in the past

24:36

I have suggested things to look for

24:38

in a Christian school, Christian

24:41

University alright and there

24:43

were five things and I mean it used

24:46

to be four then they became five and then they

24:48

changed order a little bit because the culture shifted but

24:50

these are the kinds of things that they're most important

24:52

to find out okay. First is their

24:55

understanding of the gospel okay

24:58

and to put it in simple

25:00

terms is Jesus the only way and

25:03

does that mean you have to believe in

25:05

Jesus? Now this is called exclusivism. Is

25:08

Jesus not only the exclusive means

25:10

to salvation but does someone

25:12

need to actually put their faith in

25:14

Jesus to benefit from Jesus? Because

25:17

there is a teaching called inclusivism that's

25:19

going on. You have religious pluralism that

25:21

says all religions are equally valid paths

25:24

to God. Then you have inclusivism

25:27

which is a it's kind of

25:29

a Christian hybrid of pluralism. It

25:32

says well Jesus is necessary in

25:35

order to pay for sins but you

25:37

don't have to believe in Him to benefit from Him and

25:39

that's the view of the Roman Catholic Church now and

25:41

some others as well. So I'm just you just

25:43

want to find out we're

25:46

training kids right? We

25:48

want them to have the truth the most important

25:50

truth that is the truth of the gospel. What

25:53

is that? What is that truth

25:55

of the gospel? Okay and

25:57

so that that

25:59

would be the first thing. The second thing is an

26:02

understanding of the nature of the of

26:04

the revelation that we call the Word

26:06

of God. Do the

26:08

Bible, do they believe it is the Word of God?

26:10

And if they do believe it is the Word of

26:12

God, what do they mean when they say that? And

26:15

what I'm looking for, and by the way you can you

26:18

can form these

26:20

questions any way you want, but here's the I'm

26:22

just giving you the raw substance. And

26:26

I'm looking for something akin

26:28

to inerrancy. We can

26:31

trust the Bible because God says it so.

26:34

God's speaking through these writers

26:37

and chapter and verse,

26:39

jot and tittle, that kind of thing, the Word

26:41

of God can't be broken, so we can trust

26:43

what it teaches to be the truth. That's

26:47

the view of the Bible that's I

26:49

think really critical. Okay, okay

26:51

the next one, let's see, I have

26:53

one, two, three. The next three are

26:55

kind of cultural issues that are issues

26:57

now. I used to be be concerned

27:00

about theistic evolution and

27:03

I'm not as concerned about that as

27:05

I used to be, all right? And

27:08

it's because other two other things have have

27:11

moved above that in terms

27:13

of primacy. And one

27:15

of those is the the view of

27:19

sex and gender and

27:21

marriage and homosexuality in particular. And

27:24

the problematic view

27:27

is anything that approaches being

27:31

theologically gay affirming. All

27:35

right, and there are tons and tons and tons of

27:37

Christian groups out there that are like that. Okay,

27:42

and we don't want and are affirming

27:45

therefore in this kind of

27:47

flexible sexual category affirming of

27:50

same-sex marriage and then affirming

27:52

of gender dysphoria

27:55

or gender transgenderism maybe.

28:00

dysphoria, that's a problem, but they would say

28:02

the solution is transgenderism. So you don't want

28:04

any of that confusing your kids. They're going

28:06

to get so much of that in the

28:09

world already, wherever they go, they can't avoid

28:11

it. And so we want

28:13

to make sure that they have a clear

28:15

understanding of this, of what

28:18

God's Word says. I have a talk that

28:21

I give, I used to call it, that

28:23

faithfulness is not theologically difficult.

28:27

And I have a little yellow posted tab I'm

28:29

looking at right now on the inside of my

28:31

Bible where, you know, during a show I got

28:33

so frustrated, I just wrote that down. Why are

28:35

people confused on these things? The Bible is very

28:38

clear. Now the talk is called, because that's not

28:40

a very good title for a

28:42

talk, faithfulness is not theologically difficult. I just

28:44

call it five easy issues. And

28:47

those easy issues are religious pluralism,

28:50

abortion, gender, sex,

28:53

and marriage. You know, yes, easy, right?

28:55

Well, they are. Textually, they're easy. And

28:57

I want people to be confident on

29:01

what the Bible teaches about these things because they're

29:04

not ambiguous. And

29:06

so that's kind of part of what

29:08

I'm talking about here regarding these qualifications

29:10

for the speaker. Are

29:12

we on the same page here? Yes, absolutely.

29:14

You got that. We're

29:17

looking for. I do. Yeah. So that's one,

29:19

two, three I got. Yeah. Okay. So the

29:21

odd one, put

29:25

it at the end, just the theistic evolution. It's

29:28

not as weighty as these other

29:30

concerns are. And so the fourth

29:32

one then would be things

29:35

related to very broadly wokeness

29:38

or critical theory. Or

29:41

equity, diversity, equity, and inclusion,

29:43

DEI. I mean, these are

29:45

broader categories, but it's just

29:47

a way of looking

29:49

at the world that is descended

29:52

upon Christianity aggressively.

29:55

And many people have bought into it because

29:57

they care about justice. And so they hear

29:59

the word. social justice and

30:01

they think, well, that's what Jesus was all

30:04

about, which is not true, but

30:06

nevertheless, they care about justice and so they're

30:08

taken in by a counterfeit

30:12

understanding of justice and a worldview that

30:15

is at odds with the

30:17

Christian worldview. And

30:19

that's where, you know, I'm not even sure how to ask

30:22

the question, but it has to do

30:25

with that

30:28

broad category. Critical theory, it shows

30:31

up in race issues, it shows up

30:34

in sexual issues, it shows up in

30:36

women's issues. These are all subsets of

30:38

critical theory, which basically

30:41

pits one group against another and

30:44

the powerful group is always the bad one and

30:46

the weaker group is always the good one.

30:49

I mean, in fact, they can't even be

30:51

bad because they're the weaker group, they're the

30:53

oppressed group. That's why they say that blacks

30:55

can't be, or people of

30:57

color in general, can't be racist. They

30:59

just can't because of

31:01

the power relationship. Anyway,

31:04

so you don't want any of

31:06

that stuff being brought into the

31:08

kids. So those are the five

31:11

things I'd put theistic evolution at the

31:13

very end. But if he's not dealing

31:15

with evolutionary issues and maybe

31:17

he's sympathetic to theistic evolution, I'm not going

31:20

to really fuss about that.

31:22

The other ones are critical in the

31:24

order that I offered and

31:26

that is who is Jesus and the work

31:28

of the cross and what's necessary. Religious

31:31

pluralism, the second one is the

31:33

authority of the Bible. The third

31:35

one has to do with the

31:37

sexual matters, especially homosexuality. And

31:40

the fourth one has to do with critical

31:42

theory and the whole woke business. And then

31:44

the final one is theistic evolution. It's really

31:46

trailing off the back end compared to these

31:49

other four. Got it. Okay.

31:52

And by the way, since this is the foil

31:54

that I use for

32:00

trying to decide whether a

32:03

school is genuinely true

32:05

blue and a safe place to go. I don't

32:07

actually do that. I

32:10

had it on my notes to do a show on

32:12

that or do a commentary on that as I do

32:14

once a year. But I've kind of given up because

32:16

there's too many Christian

32:18

schools that have compromised in a lot of

32:20

areas. So now I

32:22

say, look, don't look for a school

32:24

that's got, when you think about sending

32:26

your kid to a Christian school, don't

32:29

think that this school, though it

32:31

claims to be Christian, is going to be true blue in

32:33

all these areas. You gotta have your guard up,

32:35

okay? Just think of a Christian school as

32:37

a school with a lot of Christians go

32:39

to. Yeah, exactly.

32:41

Okay, make no assumptions. Number

32:44

four, can I just go back to you for a second? Could

32:46

you ask a question related to

32:48

sin in

32:50

terms of, I was just

32:52

thinking you'd said, they're

32:55

wanting justice and they see it as the

32:59

group in power versus the oppressed

33:02

group. Is there a question

33:04

that you can ask specific to, it's

33:07

not an oppressor

33:09

problem, it's a sin problem, or is there a

33:11

way to? I think that, I

33:15

think the way that I'd wanna, I'd

33:18

wanna ask this question is, what

33:20

do you, I guess, and again, I'm just

33:22

off the top of my head, so I may

33:24

wanna work on this, but I might ask something

33:26

like, what is your understanding of social justice and

33:28

the role that it has with

33:30

Christians? That's kind of

33:33

a loaded term. What I

33:35

wanna hear is, I wanna hear, well,

33:37

this is a misleading phrase, because

33:40

in critical theory, social justice is

33:44

the means of salvation. It's

33:46

salvation on this earth, there's not salvation afterward,

33:48

this is the way, but social justice, in

33:51

my view, is just simply paybacks. That's

33:54

all it amounts to, is paybacks. I mean,

33:57

this is what you saw, look, in South

33:59

Africa, had apartheid. for a long time and

34:01

then it got reversed. And now all they did

34:03

is turn the whole thing upside down and entirely

34:05

different. The oppressed group is now in power and

34:07

it's oppressing those that used to be in power.

34:11

And this happens all the time. So

34:13

it just goes from one kind of oppression to

34:15

another. And as I look

34:17

at social justice, I see that

34:20

as the antidote is just

34:22

paybacks. Now, I think there are legitimate ways of

34:25

cashing some of those concepts

34:31

out, but we have to be very careful about it.

34:34

So maybe that's the kind of question just to

34:36

test them a little bit. What are you thinking

34:39

about diversity,

34:42

equity, and inclusion? What's your view? You

34:44

might use that DEI. And

34:48

keep in mind that diversity is for

34:50

diversity's sake. And equity

34:52

means not equal treatment, but equal

34:54

consequence. You don't begin in the

34:58

same place, you end in the same place. This

35:01

is an equitable why because

35:03

they have more than somebody

35:05

else has. So it's

35:07

a distortion of

35:09

equality. And

35:12

you have to surrender. I mean, there's

35:14

a lot of detail involved in these

35:16

concepts now, but you have to surrender.

35:22

Very foundational understandings of liberty

35:25

in order to impose the equity

35:27

that those people have

35:31

in mind on the culture.

35:33

And it's very dangerous. But in any event,

35:35

I mean, people absorb these words and they get some

35:37

of the concepts and they're kind of taken with them

35:40

and they think they're cool. And they don't understand the

35:42

philosophic background and where these things are going and what

35:46

these things are actually teaching. So I mean,

35:48

that's something like that is what I'd ask

35:52

maybe. Okay. So justice and equity, diversity,

35:54

equity, inclusion. They don't talk about critical

35:57

theory anymore. nobody

36:00

teaches that. Well that's nonsense. They

36:19

just do it under a different name.

36:21

I mean it's all over the place

36:23

now everywhere. This is something that

36:25

you're going to hire or is this somebody who's

36:27

just going to speak for an event? Just

36:30

for an event. I see. And where is

36:32

the event at? I see you're in Ontario, right?

36:34

Yeah, just outside

36:37

of Toronto. Well you might

36:39

consider Tim Barnett because he

36:41

lives in town there. You

36:44

know what? We actually have. We have

36:46

no doubt to him. We have reached

36:48

out to him. So that'll be for

36:50

a different event. We have a few

36:52

of them upcoming. So we have

36:55

him on a request as well. I see.

36:57

Okay. Well he's a true blue. And you

36:59

might even check with him because he might know some

37:01

other people in the area that would

37:03

be good candidates for this other event

37:05

that you're planning right now. Okay, fantastic. I

37:07

think you've got him busy running around the

37:09

two countries. But

37:12

I'll see if he has some ideas as well. Yeah,

37:15

okay. I actually had lunch with him

37:17

today. So he's in town. I wanted

37:20

him to come on the show. But he

37:22

said, well, I got my whole family here. And everybody's

37:24

going to be mad at me if I don't take

37:26

them out, you know, wherever we're going. And do the

37:28

fun things that we're planning to do. Say, okay, I

37:30

won't fuss about it. But

37:33

you know, he's learned that I'm sure.

37:35

Yeah, well, he's fun to be with.

37:37

And he's a great communicator. Anyway,

37:39

he'll have some ideas, I'm sure. Or let me

37:41

back up. If he doesn't, if he does have

37:44

some ideas, they're going to be people you can

37:46

trust. Let's put it that way. Yeah,

37:48

okay. All right. Thank you

37:50

for your time. All right. Bye bye. Now. Thanks. Let's

37:53

see. Is it time for another break here?

37:55

Yep. Oh, sorry. I should have pushed your button so she

37:58

didn't click off. Okay, let's take a quick break and then. And

38:00

we'll come back with a couple of

38:02

questions, open mic questions.

38:04

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39:57

we're going to go to some open mic

39:59

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40:01

you call in to a

40:04

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40:06

leave your question or go to our website

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40:18

So the number that you can call is 857-342-5787. 857-342-5787 or

40:29

857-DIAL-STR if you want words.

40:34

But the preferred way according to Amy is

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if you just go to our website str.org

40:39

and then on the

40:41

home page look for podcasts

40:43

and then under podcasts live

40:45

broadcast live broadcast and

40:48

then follow the prompts. Okay this

40:50

is from Tom Poitner and

40:52

it's about the covenants. So Tom?

40:58

Hey Greg, Tom Poitner here.

41:01

Hi Tom. I'm from Winfield, Illinois

41:03

and in one of your recent

41:05

STR Ask

41:07

podcasts you had said that

41:09

Christianity is the fulfillment of

41:12

covenantal Judaism. Now I've got

41:14

a dear friend, one of my best

41:16

friends, who along with his family have a real heart for

41:19

Jewish believers and as such they have

41:21

adopted many of the more traditional Jewish

41:25

practices, festivals, strict

41:27

Sabbath observance, Friday nights,

41:29

Shabbat dinners, and

41:31

we've had many discussions with regards to

41:33

their, I'm gonna call it a soft

41:36

conversion to Judaism even though they are

41:38

completely devoted to Jesus and I really

41:40

don't question their belief in

41:42

Christ. All that to

41:45

say my question is is that

41:47

if Christianity truly is the fulfillment

41:50

of covenantal Judaism then why don't

41:52

all Christians embrace truly

41:54

Jewish traditions as my friend has?

41:57

Now I'm pretty sure that your response would

42:00

be that that's because we are under the

42:02

new covenant and not the old one. And

42:04

I think that my friend would say that

42:06

the new covenant did not do away with

42:09

the old covenant or invalidated it anyway, but

42:11

rather it completed it and fulfilled

42:13

it and that we should thus practice Judaism

42:16

as Jesus did. So I'm not

42:18

really sure how best to think about this and

42:20

I would love to hear your thoughts. Thank

42:22

you Greg, blessings. Well

42:25

thanks for that question Tom and it's a

42:27

fair question although the

42:29

response that you offered that you

42:32

anticipate your friend would have

42:35

used is frustrating to hear.

42:37

The old covenant is

42:40

the old covenant. The new

42:42

covenant is the new covenant. The

42:45

way that Christianity is a fulfillment of

42:49

covenantal Judaism is that we

42:52

are entering into the

42:54

reality and the details

42:58

of the new covenant

43:00

prophesied in Jeremiah

43:02

and Ezekiel. And it's interesting the

43:05

way Jeremiah puts the words here.

43:09

The way he introduces it's Jeremiah

43:11

31 and 31 and

43:13

following. And he says

43:15

here, Behold the days are coming declares the

43:17

Lord when I

43:19

will make a new

43:21

covenant with the house of Israel

43:23

and with the house of Judah. Now

43:27

just the fact, I'm just pausing for a

43:29

moment here, just the fact that he identifies

43:31

the covenant as a new one suggests

43:37

a replacement. That

43:39

one, there's an old one that is

43:41

now being replaced by new. Just the

43:44

language by itself suggests that. Okay

43:47

but it's more than just the language of new and

43:49

old. It gets more

43:51

explicit. Verse

43:54

32, Not like the covenant

43:57

which I made with their fathers in the

43:59

day I took them by the hand to

44:01

bring them out of the land of Egypt. Which

44:04

covenant is that? That's the Mosaic. A

44:08

covenant which they broke. So

44:11

that covenant is broken, is

44:14

what Jeremiah is saying here. There was

44:16

an old covenant that I gave to Moses,

44:18

to the people. They broke that covenant.

44:21

I'm going to give you a new

44:23

one. That one's broken. This one's new.

44:27

The covenant which they broke. I'm

44:33

looking for my spot here. Although

44:37

I was a husband to them declares the Lord. But this

44:40

is the covenant which I will make with the house of

44:42

Israel. After those days I will put my law within them

44:44

and on their heart I will write it and I will

44:46

be their God and they shall believe that people etc.

44:49

etc. And

44:51

Ezekiel talks more about that and the giving

44:54

of the Spirit. Now when Jesus at

44:57

the Last Supper had the Last Supper,

44:59

he said, this is

45:01

my body and this is the blood of

45:03

the new covenant which

45:07

will be broken and shed for

45:10

you. He may have said

45:13

for the forgiveness of sins but that's mentioned

45:15

in other passages in the New Testament as

45:17

characteristic of the new covenant which

45:19

is what Jeremiah is

45:21

saying here in Jeremiah 31, 31 and

45:23

following. Now

45:26

when you read the book of Hebrews, the book

45:28

of Hebrews makes it also clear. By

45:31

the way when a thing is fulfilled that means it's

45:33

fulfilled. This

45:35

doesn't become like a way of getting back

45:38

to the old law. Okay,

45:40

well Jesus did get rid of

45:42

the old law. He fulfilled it. Yes, but

45:44

if it's fulfilled then it's fulfilled. It

45:48

does not function in the same way that

45:50

it used to and that

45:52

is the reason the book of Hebrews is written

45:55

to show us that the function of the

45:57

law is different. I should say the function.

46:00

of the law is passé, or the

46:02

law does not function in our

46:04

lives at all anymore. And

46:06

in one verse, I'm just going from memory here, I

46:09

think it says, what is

46:12

talking about the shadow of the things to

46:14

come and that it's passing away. So

46:18

as a way to relate to

46:20

God, the

46:24

law no longer serves that

46:27

purpose. Now,

46:32

what happened very soon after the

46:34

book of Hebrews was written, the temple

46:36

was destroyed. The

46:39

entire mosaic system

46:41

was built around the temple. When

46:44

the temple gets destroyed, that shows

46:46

you cannot keep the mosaic law

46:48

anymore. It's not possible anymore. You

46:50

have to make adjustments as the

46:52

Jews have done. So

46:56

when I say that the Christianity

47:00

is truly a fulfillment

47:02

of covenantal Judaism, we

47:05

are operating in the New Covenant, which

47:07

is a Jewish covenant that the Gentiles

47:09

have been grafted into. So

47:13

it is the next step of

47:15

Jewish covenantal religious practice. You have

47:17

the Old Covenant and then we

47:20

transfer into, forget about Gentiles for

47:22

a moment, just leave Gentiles completely

47:24

out of the picture. What

47:27

we call Christianity is just

47:29

Judaism. It's Judaism,

47:33

New Covenant Judaism, that's

47:35

all. But if it's New Covenant Judaism

47:37

that we're living in, then we're not

47:39

living in Old Covenant Judaism. Now,

47:43

that doesn't mean that there's

47:46

anything wrong with practicing the feasts

47:48

and doing a lot of things

47:51

that were characteristic of the culture of

47:53

Israel, reflecting on and remembering God.

47:56

But they are not obligatory. like

48:01

they were under the Old

48:03

Covenant. They are

48:05

things that still could be practiced. But

48:08

you did say they are strict

48:11

Sabbath keepers. I'm

48:13

not sure exactly about how

48:15

that plays itself

48:17

out. To consistently

48:19

keep the Sabbath, if this is their

48:22

desire, fine. If they're thinking

48:24

there's a moral obligation to do it in

48:26

a very precise way and they are careful

48:29

to do it precisely that way so

48:31

they can fulfill their moral obligation then

48:33

their misunderstanding. The

48:37

relationship of the Old Covenant to the New Covenant.

48:40

You want to worship on Friday

48:43

sundown to Saturday sundown and take that day

48:45

off and make that for the Lord? Fine.

48:48

Paul says as much in Colossians. Some people think

48:50

one day above the other. Some consider that I'm

48:52

all the same. Whatever. So

48:59

it's fine to continue

49:01

to practice those things and there are

49:03

satyrs that I know Christian people who

49:05

are not Jewish that

49:08

will practice that and

49:10

Jewish Christians who perform

49:12

satyrs in non-Jewish Christian's homes

49:14

to help them understand how

49:16

the satyr gives a beautiful

49:18

picture of Christ there on

49:20

Passover. That's fabulous. If

49:23

you're viewing it as an obligation though this

49:25

is not that's

49:28

not biblically sound because

49:30

it's not an obligation. That

49:33

system of relating to God is

49:35

now been replaced by a new

49:37

system. In fact, going back

49:39

to the Jeremiah passage, they will not teach

49:41

again each man his neighbor and each man

49:44

his brother saying know the Lord for they

49:46

will all know me from the

49:48

least of them to the greatest of them because

49:50

the Lord for I will forgive their iniquity and

49:53

their sin I will remember no more.

49:56

In other words, there is a complete and

49:59

permanent forgiveness of sin that

50:03

is characteristic of the New

50:05

Covenant. I mentioned earlier about the

50:07

Bible fast-forward. That's

50:11

a course that helps you to see the

50:13

way the relationship is between these

50:15

two. I just don't... it's

50:19

crazy... I'm sorry, maybe I shouldn't use that word.

50:21

It just frustrates me when somebody says, oh yeah,

50:23

well Jesus fulfilled the law. That means we have

50:25

to still live in the law. He

50:28

didn't do away with the law. He fulfilled it. Yes,

50:31

the law is no longer effective in our life,

50:33

not because it's been done away with, but because

50:35

it's been fulfilled. And once it's fulfilled, that's it.

50:38

There is no further legal obligation

50:41

that we have regarding that law.

50:45

And when I say Christianity is

50:48

the fulfillment of covenantal Judaism, I'm

50:50

saying that Christianity is the word

50:52

that we use to describe New

50:54

Covenant Judaism. And also we

50:57

have a clearer picture that the Gentiles are

50:59

now grafted into the New Covenant. It's

51:02

always part of the plan right from the

51:04

beginning with Abraham in Genesis 12, but there

51:09

is a much more explicit characterization of that

51:11

plan. My spirit I

51:13

will pour out on all men, the prophecy

51:16

from the book of Joel that's cited

51:18

in Acts chapter 2 and Pentecost Sunday.

51:21

Okay, so these things are, there was a

51:23

progression. You move from

51:25

one to the other. So

51:30

it's funny to me if I say that

51:33

Christianity is the fulfillment of covenantal

51:36

Judaism, that somehow this

51:38

suggests that I ought to be

51:40

arguing we should go back and

51:42

do the old system with Jews.

51:45

Quite the contrary. It's

51:49

the fulfillment of that. It's the next step.

51:51

You go from old to new. Not

51:54

like the one that I gave you when

51:56

you came out of Egypt when I rescued

51:58

you. That one that you... you broke,

52:01

but here's one you can't break. It's

52:04

the New Covenant, a totally different provision.

52:08

The book of Hebrews is a

52:10

remarkable theological

52:14

treatise to

52:16

make this point really clear.

52:20

The point is, the

52:23

oldest is older than the newest is new. You

52:26

have Jesus now who's a better priest.

52:28

He's not a Levitical priest. After the

52:30

order of Melchizedek, you

52:33

have Jesus' sacrifice, which is a better

52:35

sacrifice. It's not the sacrifice of blood

52:37

and bulls and goats, which

52:40

can never take away sin. But

52:43

instead, he says when he comes into the world, sacrifice

52:47

you have not desired, but a body you

52:50

have prepared for me. What

52:54

for? Because the blood of bulls

52:56

and goats can't take away sin. That's the old system.

52:59

Now we have the perfect. When the perfect comes, the

53:01

partial is gone. I'm paraphrasing

53:03

there from, I think, Hebrews 10, but maybe

53:05

I should just look it up. When

53:08

the perfect comes, the partial is gone. It's

53:10

passing away. That's the point. So

53:13

we are just kind of, as Gentiles,

53:17

climbing on for the ride, as

53:19

it were, of the plan

53:21

that God had for Israel all along, to leave

53:23

one behind and to come out with the new.

53:27

And that's why we call it the new covenant. And

53:31

it's contrasted with the old. Now

53:33

Jesus makes a point, obviously, in Matthew 5,

53:36

that you

53:38

can't do away with the law.

53:41

And I remember Jesus is speaking

53:43

under an old covenant system until

53:46

he initiates the new covenant system,

53:50

in one sense, at his last supper, but formally

53:53

at the cross and then

53:55

inaugurating that system on Pentecost.

53:58

So events are strung together. as

54:01

this transition is taking place. Okay?

54:05

And it's Jesus'

54:07

body that is now

54:10

the perfect sacrifice that the blood of bulls

54:12

and goats used

54:15

to at least fill

54:18

in for, so to speak, temporarily.

54:22

And the Jewish

54:24

nation was supposed to move in

54:26

this direction, leaving the old behind.

54:29

Jesus says you cannot, in Matthew

54:31

5, you know, you can't do away with the law.

54:34

He's speaking under that system, but he's trying to show

54:36

the guilt that everybody has. No,

54:39

you can't just get rid of the law. The law makes

54:41

its demand on you, and it makes a bigger demand

54:44

than you thought. Don't

54:46

commit murder. Didn't do that. Do

54:48

you ever call your brother a fool? Yeah. Well,

54:51

then you're going to hell. That's

54:53

what the law demands. That's

54:55

Jesus. Don't commit adultery.

54:57

Haven't done that. Did you ever think about

55:00

it? Yeah, you're

55:03

going to hell. That's Jesus.

55:05

So what he's doing there is he's saying

55:07

the law cannot just

55:10

simply be dismissed. It

55:13

demands, moral demands,

55:15

weigh on you heavier than you

55:17

thought. Now, there

55:20

is a way out, and that's

55:22

when the law is fulfilled through

55:24

Jesus, and

55:27

that fulfillment then moves.

55:30

He keeps the law perfectly

55:32

and then suffers under the law, as

55:34

it were, as the

55:36

perfect sacrifice so that we can

55:39

die to the law. That's

55:43

what Romans identifies.

55:46

Just like if you were betrothed

55:49

or you're married to someone, there

55:53

has to be a death before you can be

55:55

married to somebody else, right, until death do us part. Well,

55:57

that's the way it was with the law. We have died

55:59

to it. the law. Now we

56:01

can be betrothed to Christ in the new covenant.

56:04

Why? Because the law is gone. So

56:07

it's just in

56:09

a certain sense,

56:11

frustrating to hear these kinds of

56:13

characterizations, Tom, of why

56:15

we should keep in the

56:18

old system when that

56:21

reflects, I think, a lack of understanding of

56:23

what the new was meant to do. There

56:26

are many aspects of that that we are free to

56:28

participate in. You're not going to do the sacrifices

56:31

anymore, anything akin to that, because the

56:33

final sacrifice has been made and the

56:35

temple has been destroyed. All

56:37

right, so that's out. You want to keep

56:40

Passover? You want to keep Shabbat? Oh, great!

56:43

Do it! Knock yourself out. You want to

56:45

do Hanukkah? Great! There could

56:47

be all kinds of celebration that one participates in

56:49

if they want, Jewish or

56:51

Gentile. But if

56:53

you make the old law the substance of

56:55

our behavior and relation

56:58

to God, that somehow the new just gets

57:00

added on top of the

57:02

old, then that's confused. The

57:06

new replaces the old, and

57:10

it's able to replace the old

57:12

because the old gets its perfect

57:14

fulfillment in the person of Jesus.

57:16

There you go. Hope that helps, Tom. Thank you

57:18

for the question. Greg Coeckel here for

57:20

Stand to Reason. Give them a hand, friends.

57:22

Bye-bye.