0:04

Hello friends

0:30

Greg Coeckel here the show is Stand to

0:32

Reason and I'm glad that you've

0:34

joined me here today I hope I can give you

0:36

a piece of my mind and many of you calling

0:38

and there's a lot in the queue right now you

0:41

can give me a piece of yours so that's the point

0:43

of the show here making the

0:45

case that the Christian understanding

0:48

of the world the Christian

0:50

view of reality is an accurate

0:52

one it's a

0:54

factual one it's a true

0:56

one there's a difficulty using the

0:58

word true nowadays because it's misunderstood

1:00

that's why I start out with

1:03

factual and whatever the

1:05

word else the other word was

1:07

that I use but yeah we accurate

1:10

and factual that's what we mean by true

1:13

we're not just talking about our fantasy now may turn

1:15

out to be our fantasy but that's

1:17

not what we think and that's

1:19

not what we're advancing we're

1:22

willing to think about it and to see

1:24

whether our views and our claims are accurate

1:27

or not but we're

1:29

not offering ice

1:31

cream here we're offering insulin so

1:34

to speak I had

1:36

it last

1:39

weekend when I was in this great little town

1:41

called Buffalo Wyoming population 5,000 and I worked with

1:43

a great

1:45

church there summit church I

1:49

had a couple of questions actually one came during

1:51

the Q&A and the other one came afterwards in

1:54

private conversation but they were kin to each other

1:56

and I want to mention something about them before

1:58

I jump into the calls I won't

2:00

take long. So if you're on hold, just hang

2:02

in there. I'll be get to you shortly and Thank

2:05

you for your patience. But one of the questions was what

2:07

do I do? What

2:10

do I do with a person who just seems

2:12

apathetic? Who just

2:14

see they just don't seem to care They

2:18

I talked to them about the Lord and they say

2:20

well, that's all right. It doesn't matter. It's you know

2:22

I'm not gonna worry about it now. I'm doing fine.

2:24

I don't need that I'll

2:26

find out when I die or some kind

2:28

of dismissive attitude and You

2:33

know, I was just thinking about it as I

2:35

was saying that that's to some degree the attitude

2:37

I had Before

2:39

I became a Christian for some years before

2:41

that I was at Michigan State University My

2:45

brother Mark was not he I was he

2:47

went to junior college a bit but He

2:50

was my younger brother and he had become a

2:52

Christian during the Jesus movement and when I came

2:54

back home to visit He told

2:56

me about he was a Christian and he was

2:58

very energetic about it and my attitude was well,

3:01

that's good for you I'm

3:04

happy for you. I'm glad

3:06

you found something as if

3:08

that's what it was all about Just finding something

3:10

and he found Jesus and great I

3:13

I'm finding other things that are more fun than

3:15

Jesus. That was my thinking But

3:17

notice how dismissive my attitude was. Well, here

3:20

I am 50 some years later behind

3:23

a microphone 31

3:26

years president understand the reason I'm not trying

3:28

to wave my flag. I'm just saying things

3:30

are very different now, right? so

3:32

one can start out like that

3:34

and still be dragged

3:37

into the kingdom by God and make

3:40

a difference and if you

3:42

have loved ones who are just

3:47

Ambivalent or uninterested

3:49

or Just

3:54

Apathetic well, that

3:56

doesn't mean they're always going to be that way for one,

3:59

but secondly I'm not sure what you can do about it.

4:04

When I wrote Street Smarts,

4:07

it released in September. One

4:10

of the things that I said, I think in the very first

4:13

chapter, was that even though

4:15

the material that I was giving, critiquing

4:19

atheism, for example, or talking about the

4:22

problem of evil, or addressing

4:24

the issue of abortion, or challenges to the

4:26

Bible, or challenges to Jesus, or gender, sex,

4:28

and marriage, all of these things are covered

4:30

there, and approached with

4:33

a tactical approach, using

4:35

questions to answer Christianity's toughest

4:38

challenges. That's the

4:41

subtitle of Street Smarts. I did say

4:43

these responses,

4:46

critiques, whatever that I'm offering of

4:49

these other ways of thinking, and

4:52

of the challenges that they offer to Christianity.

4:54

I said, my responses are good

4:56

ones. They've been tried

4:58

and tested on the field of

5:00

experience, and they're well thought through,

5:03

but that doesn't mean they're going

5:05

to somehow magically change people's minds.

5:08

There is no such thing as a silver bullet here. There

5:12

is nothing that I can do myself

5:15

that in a sense magically is going to

5:17

change somebody else's mind. You

5:19

know, I've talked about this before. The

5:22

relationship of me in the Holy Spirit, or

5:25

you in the Holy Spirit, in this enterprise, any

5:27

Christian in the Holy Spirit, is 100% God and

5:29

100% man. I'm

5:32

hitchhiking off the Chalcedonian Christological

5:34

formula about Jesus, who is 100% God

5:36

and 100% man. I'm

5:39

just using the language to make a different point. That

5:42

is, that I'm 100% responsible for

5:44

my side of the equation, and

5:47

God is 100% responsible for

5:49

His. Well, what is my side?

5:52

My side is to present the truth as

5:54

graciously and as accurately and

5:56

as persuasively as possible.

6:00

That's it. The consequence,

6:02

the results, what happens as a

6:04

result of be communicating in that

6:06

way is not up to me.

6:08

I cannot control that. A

6:11

person might say, oh, that's great. Tell me

6:13

more. Or they might say ho hum. Or

6:17

they might say go away. Or

6:20

they might say you intolerant, hateful bigot. I

6:24

can't control how they're going to respond. All

6:27

I can control is what I offer. The

6:30

rest is in God's hands. He

6:32

is the Lord of the harvest. He

6:34

is the only one that can bring the harvest in. The

6:37

Holy Spirit is the only one that can change your heart. No,

6:41

God is pleased to use particular

6:43

means to accomplish those ends. He

6:46

is pleased to use the simple

6:48

proclamation of the gospel to accomplish

6:50

that end. He is pleased to

6:52

use the generous display of love

6:55

by a Christian towards someone else

6:57

as a means to that end. He is also

7:00

happy to use a thoughtful

7:02

argument as a

7:04

means to that same end. Because

7:07

God is loving and He is gracious and

7:09

He is reasonable.

7:12

Come let us reason together.

7:15

And so all of these means

7:17

are consistent with His

7:19

character. So He's happy and pleased to use them.

7:22

And by the way, He's even pleased to use other

7:24

means that aren't consistent with His character. Paul

7:26

ran into this and he talks about it in Philippians

7:29

chapter 1 or 2 about how

7:31

the gospel is being preached with wrong motives.

7:34

And Paul says, well, whatever. Whether

7:37

in pretense or in truth, the gospel

7:39

is preached. That's the key to Him.

7:42

All right. So God can use anything, but

7:44

He is the only one that can use it. And

7:48

our job is just to offer something to

7:50

people that is virtuous and noble and

7:53

then trust God to do what only

7:55

He can do. And sometimes He does something and

7:57

sometimes He doesn't. But

8:00

we can't guarantee the outcome. And

8:03

we're going to talk to people that are

8:05

just completely apathetic. They don't

8:07

care. And that's going to

8:09

be hard for us, depending on that relationship. Because

8:12

sometimes the relationship is really close to us. And

8:15

we desperately and deeply want that

8:18

person to respond to Christ.

8:21

And it's not happening, at least not at the moment.

8:24

But I'll just tell you, in my particular case, and

8:27

it's, of course, not always like

8:29

us for everybody, in my particular case, over

8:31

time, God got my

8:33

attention and then wore me down. And then

8:36

there was a significant season

8:38

when I was listening to my brother,

8:41

pushing back sometimes asking questions, whatever,

8:43

but I was in play until

8:46

finally I just

8:48

came to the conclusion that Jesus got it right. I

8:50

don't know how else to say that. It

8:53

isn't like, here was the thing that really got me.

8:56

I do remember a prayer that I prayed in Washington

8:59

State, 1973 in the summer.

9:03

I was in Army summer camp at the time. I was

9:05

a reservist. I was in my last summer

9:07

camp because I'd been in six years in the Army since 1968 as

9:09

a reservist. And

9:12

I just said, God, if you're there, I want to know. I

9:15

just prayed this silly prayer. I say it's

9:17

silly because I felt silly when I prayed it. Nevertheless,

9:20

God heard it. And there are a lot of

9:22

people, as I've listened to over

9:24

the years, who explained how they became Christians who prayed

9:26

the same kind of prayer. Well,

9:29

who did that? God did that. He brought

9:31

me to that place. Now, did Mark play a role?

9:33

Sure. My younger brother, sure.

9:35

For a while, I just shined him on, apathetic, and

9:37

then God got my

9:39

attention. And Mark

9:41

was praying for me a lot, so that's something else we can do.

9:44

But with regards to apathetic people, I

9:47

wish I had a silver bullet, but I don't have it. You

9:50

could ask some questions. Why are you apathetic? Why don't

9:52

you care? It

9:54

was C.S. Lewis who said, look, if Christianity is not

9:56

true, it doesn't matter. It's

9:59

of no reason. no importance. But

10:02

if it is true, it's of supreme

10:05

importance. So that might

10:07

be a point you could make, maybe

10:09

a stone in their shoe or something like

10:11

that. But ultimately, other people's response is

10:14

out of your control. By the way, that's not just

10:17

as a matter of evangelism

10:20

advice, that's life advice. Even

10:24

with Christians and relationships, and you think things are

10:26

going south here, what do I do? Well, you

10:28

can do what's right. Peter

10:31

says in the last verse of chapter 4,

10:33

1 Peter, let him

10:36

who suffers according to the will

10:38

of God entrust himself to

10:41

a faithful creator and doing what

10:43

is right. You do the

10:45

right thing. It

10:47

may not have the right response in the sense

10:49

that a response that you

10:51

want, but

10:53

it's still the right thing to do before God, and

10:55

that's the one before whom

10:58

you live. That's

11:00

the audience of one, and that's the one that matters, even

11:04

if it doesn't produce the results you have in mind. So

11:07

what we do is we focus in our

11:09

lives with regards to other people in

11:11

doing the good thing, the best thing,

11:13

making the most of the opportunity, not

11:15

returning evil for evil, but blessing instead,

11:17

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and

11:19

finally entrusting ourselves to

11:21

a faithful creator and doing what

11:24

is right. Now there was another question

11:26

that was asked of me privately that's

11:28

kin to this one, and

11:31

what this dear brother said to me is

11:33

he does like to witness a lot, but

11:35

he's kind of a mystic is the way

11:37

he characterized it. And I wasn't

11:39

sure what that meant, and I probed a little bit,

11:41

and he explained more, because he really believes that there's

11:44

this important role of the Holy Spirit, which

11:47

I agree with and which I've just been talking

11:49

about. And he affirmed, I

11:51

know you see it, you believe this too, we're

11:53

on the same page, but here's what I'm trying

11:55

to figure out. He said to

11:57

me, how can I... Get

12:00

the Holy Spirit more involved with my own

12:02

witnessing. I know I can do things but

12:04

the Holy Spirit's got to do things And

12:06

I want to be sensitive to

12:09

the Holy Spirit That's the mystical

12:11

side of it so that I can then Get

12:14

the Holy Spirit moving in a certain way

12:16

or cooperate more with the Holy Spirit There's

12:19

that kind of thing now. It's a it's a

12:21

it's a very sweet question and

12:23

a very sweet intention But I think it's

12:25

something no Christian has to worry about Because

12:29

I don't know that there's

12:31

any way apart from prayer where you're

12:34

making a request of the Father to do

12:36

something With regards to

12:38

another person whether that's a Christian or

12:40

non-Christian Evangelism or otherwise apart

12:42

from asking God to move through prayer.

12:44

I don't know of any

12:46

other Thing that you can

12:49

do to get the Holy Spirit moving on

12:51

some circumstance There's

12:54

I don't know of anything in Scripture that suggests

12:57

that and There's a

12:59

very good reason for this and the scripture seems

13:01

to suggest Otherwise and

13:03

that is that the Holy Spirit does

13:05

what he wants and

13:09

So in the giving of gifts What

13:11

first Corinthians 12 Romans 12 one of

13:13

those passages it says the Holy Spirit

13:16

distributes gifts as he wills the

13:19

way he wants giving

13:21

a Gift to whoever he

13:23

likes everybody gets a gift because we all have

13:26

to play a role a Productive

13:28

role in the body of Christ, but who

13:30

decides that the Holy Spirit? okay

13:34

Jesus is talking to John the Baptist

13:36

and He's

13:39

saying Talking about the

13:41

spirit and being born of the spirit and

13:43

that confuses. I'm sorry not John the Baptist,

13:46

but Nicodemus Oops

13:50

Senior moment Jesus

13:52

is talking Nicodemus and John chapter 3

13:55

and it's a discussion about the new

13:57

birth and the spiritual birth and The

14:00

Nicodemus is confused and Jesus said, hey, the

14:02

Spirit does what it wants to do. It's

14:05

like the wind. Who knows where it comes from, where it's going. It's

14:07

on its own. And

14:10

so my application of things like that and

14:12

other passages where I get a general sense

14:14

of this is that you don't worry

14:16

about what God's doing. That's his

14:19

problem. That's his business. He'll

14:21

take care of that. He's good for it. We

14:25

just worry about our marching orders. That's

14:27

all we have to worry about. And I don't know

14:29

of any other way that you can kind of leverage

14:32

God, get the

14:34

Spirit going, moving, or whatever.

14:37

Come on, God. I

14:39

need more of your Spirit in this. Can you, how

14:42

do I, you don't. He's

14:46

his own person, so

14:48

to speak. And

14:51

the only alternative, the only way that I can

14:53

think of getting him moving is through prayer. And

14:56

there are lots of things in our

14:59

lives we look at and say, I

15:01

can't do anything about this circumstance.

15:04

Everything I know to do, I'm

15:07

doing. Everything that

15:10

seems available to me, I'm trying to employ

15:12

that. Any other

15:14

thing that gets done is got to be done by

15:16

you, Lord. Because

15:19

I can't do this. And

15:21

that's an expression of our

15:24

trust in him and our

15:26

confidence in him. And it isn't a confidence that he

15:28

will do what we ask. It's our

15:31

confidence that it is in his

15:33

hands. And if anything is going to be

15:35

done further, it's gonna be because he does it. And we're

15:37

just gonna trust in him to do what he thinks is

15:39

best. But we're

15:42

gonna keep hammering at the door. Bang,

15:45

bang, bang. Open, open,

15:47

open. God act. Ask,

15:50

seek, knock. Okay.

15:54

And we just keep doing that. And that pleases

15:56

him. He's pleased to

15:59

hear us pray. because

16:01

our prayers are an evidence

16:04

in our heart, of

16:06

our hearts, dependence upon him. And

16:09

sometimes things are really rough and we pray really

16:11

long and hard because he wants

16:13

us to express more dependence on him and more

16:15

trust in him in whatever it

16:17

is he decides to do. So

16:19

those are the two conversations I had and there's some thoughts

16:21

about each side that might be helpful to you. I'm mindful

16:25

here we got a bunch of callers on board. Why

16:28

don't we go to break early and just take

16:30

care of that and I'll jump into Joshua and

16:32

then Wally and then Tricia when

16:34

I return on Stand to Reason. To

16:59

read our bios and learn more about the

17:01

topics we cover visit str.org then email

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schedule Greg, Alan, Tim,

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John or me, Robbie

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today. Are

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from that show that we're looking

18:58

for A home for. Southern California.

19:00

Reality for Twenty Twenty Five September.

19:04

Southern California is our flagship

19:06

bar location. Starting. And

19:08

twenty fourteen. End of this

19:11

is like or. What? Twelfth or

19:13

thirteenth year akin to the mouth. Ah,

19:16

But or twenty Twenty four we have a

19:18

location will be a Biola again but we

19:20

don't have one for Twenty Twenty Five. We

19:22

have some people were talking with but we

19:24

have no comment with yet and we're looking

19:26

for a good home. We need a church

19:28

sick hold close to three thousand people. That.

19:32

Were after. And also

19:34

has breakout rooms. To. Your

19:36

ten breakouts roughly That's three

19:38

hundred people per room. so

19:40

are and a I staff

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that is excited about this

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idea and we have top

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down by yeah that's really

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important. That. the pastor

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and the whole team and everybody's onboard because

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this is a huge event is a great

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event for the life of a local church

19:58

many of you know this or because gone

20:00

to reality events in different parts of the country,

20:03

but for the church that hosted, it's a great thing.

20:05

It's a great feather in their cap for their community

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and for their people. Characteristically,

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we end financially

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in the black. Very, very

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rare where that isn't the case, especially

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for these large revenues. So

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just saying, if you want

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to contact us regarding that

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need, contact danielle at str.org.

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That's her email address, danielle,

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D-A-W-N-I-E-L-L-E at

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str.org. All

20:38

right, let's go to Joshua and Louisiana here. Joshua,

20:41

welcome to the show. Glad

20:43

you called. Hey Greg.

20:45

Hey. What's

20:47

up? Nothing much. Just want

20:49

to ask your opinion on some things. I'm a

20:52

long-time listener and we support. I

20:56

called a while back about needing fellowship

21:00

and we found a little church

21:02

here close to our house. And over

21:05

the past six to eight months, we've been having kind

21:08

of a, what would they call a transitional meeting because they've

21:10

been without a pastor and have

21:12

a transitional pastor. And

21:15

about two months ago, the

21:17

transitional pastor and

21:20

the pastor who's retired just

21:22

under a year now sat down with

21:24

me and said that they had thought that

21:27

possibly I should take the pastor position. But

21:30

we are in the conversations

21:32

of just about multiple,

21:34

multi pastors because

21:37

we have somebody, we have, you know, a retired pastor there.

21:39

We have another guy who's an ex-pastor.

21:41

We have like four or five of us that all

21:43

could teach. And, you know,

21:45

I just

21:47

wanted to get your opinion. I read a

21:50

little bit from John Barber and a

21:52

couple different things. Should there be a, if

21:56

there's a rotation pastor,

21:58

should there also still be kind

22:00

of a head pastor who helps lead and

22:02

guide and direct the church. I

22:05

don't know, you know, biblically, I

22:07

don't know if there's a standing

22:09

biblically, but I think there's an example

22:11

throughout the scriptures of someone kind of being

22:14

the head. Well, yeah, let

22:16

me respond to that. I mean,

22:18

certainly the church consists

22:20

of sheep that need a shepherd, or

22:23

let me better to put it this way,

22:26

that need shepherding. When

22:28

we see the early church beginning to form,

22:31

Paul sent like

22:33

Titus and Timothy out with the

22:35

responsibility of in local

22:38

congregations choosing elders

22:40

of certain qualifications to lead the

22:42

church. So early on, we

22:44

see the model of

22:46

a plurality of

22:49

leaders in the church. And I'm just

22:51

curious. I could be

22:53

mistaken on this, so don't quote me, but

22:55

you might want to check it out. I

22:57

think that's the way the synagogues worked. They

22:59

didn't have a head of the synagogue. They

23:02

had a plurality of leadership. And so the

23:04

early church just followed that model. And

23:07

I think there's wisdom in that. There is

23:09

no other model that is offered, by the

23:11

way, in the New Testament.

23:13

But it didn't take long for

23:16

individual churches to have individuals rise

23:18

up and take a principal role

23:20

in the leadership. And these were

23:22

called bishops. So you

23:24

have well-known church fathers that

23:26

were bishops of

23:29

certain areas. Now, a bishop is just

23:31

an elder, but what ended

23:33

up happening is these elders rose to position

23:35

of prominence, so they were the ones who

23:37

was in charge. And the American church largely

23:40

follows that pattern where you have

23:42

a senior pastor approach.

23:45

And there are advantages

23:47

to that. It's good that stand

23:49

to reason as a president, because in a certain sense,

23:51

the buck stops with me. And Even

23:54

though much of the time we

23:56

count the votes on some issue,

23:58

occasionally we have. The votes rate

24:00

and mine has more weight than the

24:03

others but that that actually rarely happens

24:05

He and now they think about it.

24:07

Even though I'm I'm in the role

24:09

as the President. And

24:11

we have an executive director to that

24:14

really does the heavy lift heavy lifting

24:16

does makes my job a lot easier

24:18

on makes me look better frankly arm

24:20

but. Is. It turns out most

24:22

part we. Must be aiming

24:25

know that's not a very specific and

24:27

he added extra that's and as a

24:29

like that's Meg set So but butter

24:31

the point here. So every person's operating

24:33

within their responsibility and even though they

24:35

are accountable to of or exact and

24:37

or executive staff of which Meg and

24:39

I are a member on nevertheless they

24:42

are left largely to themselves and in

24:44

the executioner duties base of the guidelines

24:46

that they're given in a we have

24:48

a little oversight Whatever, we have a

24:50

good team so it's their. It turns

24:52

out to be a de facto plurality.

24:54

Of leadership even. At. Stand to

24:57

reason. That we had

24:59

actually functions and I think this is

25:01

the way it's supposed to be in

25:03

the local church. A plurality of leadership

25:05

Now Arms or the John Noise are

25:08

our team. He's goes to church where

25:10

that's what they have. They have four,

25:12

five elders are and they rotate the

25:14

teaching responsibility of when they have to

25:17

make decisions tennessee elders that have to

25:19

decide as a group so there isn't

25:21

just one person that the buck stops

25:23

with. Which means there's one person that

25:25

makes. The final decision which means

25:28

one person can guide the whole

25:30

enterprise for good or for ill.

25:33

A rather there's protection. And

25:35

them the the plurality of leadership.

25:38

That keeps the team or

25:40

the group ah, grounded and

25:42

I It protects the group

25:45

from the authority of one

25:47

individual Now, ironically. Went.

25:49

As you see church history developed,

25:51

they've quickly got away from that.

25:54

Are from their plurality

25:56

to the bishop system,

25:58

but does that. The

26:00

had his advantages and it's disadvantages

26:02

as well. The New Testament does

26:04

not teach that it teaches a

26:06

plurality, so if you are in

26:08

a search situation that they are

26:11

that they are. Ah,

26:13

I'm thinking about a Ups look

26:15

a plural leadership like that. As

26:17

long as the individuals in the

26:19

leadership have the appropriate qualifications and

26:22

those are and Titus and and

26:24

Timothy then I think that's fine.

26:26

I think that's actually more the

26:29

New Testament model. Yeah.

26:31

Yeah. That's that's where away with the way

26:33

we're leaning, it's just a very traditional church

26:36

as the they're looking for that one singular

26:38

guy. And it

26:40

out. So we've just been really. and

26:43

around a willingness for six months has retired

26:45

of ago of the church the of like

26:47

and right right well end up putting out

26:49

ill going up our funding up the all

26:51

over the oh school church him right right

26:54

right direction they want me to come and

26:56

be the one one guy and he knows.

26:58

We're. All kind of thinking of a plurality

27:00

of a leadership and a half. So.

27:03

It's a sketch, well have one guy comes

27:05

in. That's kind of the way most churches

27:07

do it, but I think they're Lot of

27:10

people are convinced including me that plurality is

27:12

what God had in mind. Although some people

27:14

and or know it's your learn from Piper

27:16

and some of the others. Ah but you

27:19

know this is the way most churches are

27:21

run now with a cheap. A

27:23

chief shepherd so to speak. Even though

27:25

there are other shepherds as well. The

27:27

difficulty for me as that that she's

27:29

shepherd are sometimes takes on too much

27:31

authority and too much responsibility and it

27:34

is couldn't on be unhealthy for the

27:36

local church. A. Great beer or

27:38

idea either was a sale was kind of.

27:40

of. You know there's a generally I I

27:42

got it. And

27:45

history examples, but I would waves

27:47

been leaning towards at motif or

27:49

plural. Sure, holsters and in of.

27:52

And like I said, fighting appeal a load of

27:54

the traditional chances. Of him without

27:56

one for I think for years there really

27:58

are eager to as. I'm an

28:00

opposition but we're kind of phantom. guide

28:02

them a little bit differently. Yeah okay

28:04

well as I hope what I offered as

28:07

a helpful to your josh armless quickly

28:09

go to our wally his next on the

28:11

line here as arise that whether been

28:13

slashing okay while you're on board an issue.

28:16

Or. Greg either five with your girlfriend

28:18

hey as as this wally that I

28:21

know like from mom's where was your

28:23

Lutheran Church over there by Sunset Boulevard

28:25

or something? Is there remember many, many

28:27

years ago right? If

28:30

was book as Alice's visitors are

28:32

retired. From there on a sixteen

28:34

you will hear about your son

28:36

to reality right? Yes,

28:38

but not necessarily.com.

28:41

O. L. Live. Life goes

28:43

on. So now it does. It does. Every year

28:45

I get older, you get older as the weather

28:48

work. Safe I'm I'm really glad to talk to

28:50

again though. Thank you for calling while a. True.

28:53

Well I. I got solid ground

28:55

last week and. Oh.

28:58

I love the topic, I love everything

29:00

you did with it and I kept

29:02

reading of looking for your reference to.

29:05

To Matthew Twenty Seven.

29:08

Forty. Six hundred Jesus from

29:11

because. right? Buying out. My.

29:13

God my God, why are you? For sake

29:15

of view? That seems to me pretty good

29:17

evidence that. He. Was so.

29:20

Separated. From the father and

29:22

son the serious way. yeah I'd have

29:24

right in that that that piece you're

29:26

talking about of courses on the atonement.

29:28

The title is why the blood and

29:30

I'm fact. I just got my copy

29:32

on i think in the mail today

29:34

or maybe even when I was on

29:36

a town. I saw it on my

29:38

desk when I got in late twelve

29:40

thirty last night's ah so I guess

29:42

they got it a little early hospice

29:45

mostly a May first thing and I

29:47

was very late with my top, but

29:49

my team just jumped on and. got

29:51

allowed in time so i'm glad you had

29:53

a chance to read it there's a lot

29:55

i could have said obviously about the of

29:57

the substitution a retirement which is what this

30:00

was about, people are upset about, especially

30:02

progressives about the blood and Jesus having to

30:04

be the substitute and why does that's cosmic

30:06

child abuse and of course I addressed all

30:08

those issues but there was just a lot

30:11

of stuff I couldn't say because I'm working

30:13

with about 3,500 words and it's a big

30:15

topic so

30:17

I tried to stay right

30:19

as tight to my own structure

30:21

and outline as possible. I do

30:24

think there's some misunderstanding about that passage

30:26

though. I like the

30:29

phrase you used Wally, some mysterious way

30:31

because I do think it is mysterious.

30:35

It is not possible to have any

30:38

kind of a break in the Godhead. I

30:40

mean God is one and

30:42

he's not made of parts, you know, that's the

30:44

classical understanding of God. There are three persons obviously

30:47

but it's not bits and pieces of him that

30:49

you can split it. That

30:51

was a cry of Jesus from the

30:54

cross of agony. It was

30:56

the same line that initiates Psalm 22

30:58

which is a Psalm about

31:01

crucifixion written

31:03

like 750 years before crucifixion

31:05

was a way of punishment,

31:07

you know, and so it's a very powerful

31:11

prophetic piece but it

31:13

does identify the anguish that

31:15

Jesus is experiencing under the

31:17

hand of the Father who

31:20

is bringing judgment upon Jesus

31:22

on our behalf and I know

31:24

you understand all of that obviously.

31:27

The way I like to characterize

31:30

what's going on there is I just take

31:32

it to the second line of the Psalm.

31:35

My God, my God, why has thou

31:37

forsaken me? Far from my, how

31:41

does he put it now? I don't have it in front of me. Far

31:44

from my deliverance are

31:46

the words of my groaning. In other

31:48

words, this is

31:50

a man Jesus here in deep

31:53

anguish not being delivered

31:55

from his anguish. I

31:57

don't think it's saying that the Father is some

32:00

somehow turned his back on Jesus, although

32:02

there's a way in which we can

32:04

use that language if we're careful to

32:07

explain that this is God punishing Jesus for the

32:09

sins that we have. He made him who knew

32:11

no sin to be sin on our

32:14

behalf that we could become the

32:16

righteousness of God in him. That's

32:18

2 Corinthians 2 passage, or it's

32:20

chapter 5, verse 21, I guess.

32:25

And that was key to reconciliation. As

32:28

you read through the entire psalm,

32:31

you see all these characterizations of

32:33

anguish and things that are happening

32:36

to this one, presumably

32:39

hanging from the cross, because that's kind

32:41

of the viewpoint character is the one

32:44

suffering and looking at what's going

32:46

on around him. And

32:50

it's interesting at the end

32:52

of the psalm, it actually

32:54

ends on a somewhat triumphal

32:56

note. And that

32:59

is that he's being rescued. These

33:02

positive things that are said here about

33:05

the Father and God, and then he says

33:08

that they

33:11

will come, posterity, it will

33:14

be told to the Lord, to the coming

33:16

generations, they will come and will

33:18

declare his righteousness to a people

33:21

who will be born that he

33:23

has performed it. It's

33:25

almost like that last line, Wally, he has performed

33:28

it. It sounds like a lot like it is

33:30

finished, you know, which is

33:32

the last words Jesus said on the cross before

33:34

he surrendered his spirit to the Father. So I

33:38

didn't include it just because I was including so

33:40

much more, and especially psalm

33:42

50, I'm sorry, Isaiah 53,

33:44

which I think is

33:47

the capstone passage that

33:50

makes completely clear that the

33:53

servant who was suffering near in Isaiah 53,

33:55

same one that was suffering in psalm 22,

33:57

was suffering for

34:00

the sins of the others for

34:02

whom the child

34:36

of use. Oh, cosmic child of use.

34:38

I did make a reference to that

34:40

charge, but I think in the footnote,

34:42

I might have said anybody who says

34:44

that, that this is cosmic child of

34:46

use does not understand what's going on.

34:49

It's really a low Christology because though

34:51

Jesus was the father's son, he was

34:53

also God. So the punishment

34:56

by God was on God. He was the

34:58

one who was punishing and the one who

35:00

received the punishment. I think

35:02

that I quoted Shed from 120 years ago,

35:04

130 years ago in that regard because Shed

35:11

does WGT Shed in

35:13

his systematic, his dogmatics. It does

35:15

such a great job, I think,

35:17

of clarifying that and putting that

35:19

in proper, in its proper place.

35:22

So, but it was

35:24

a tough, solid

35:27

ground to write because so much could be

35:29

said and I just wanted

35:31

to try to answer the challenge in

35:33

what, 3,500 words, the challenge

35:35

of the progressives and others who just

35:37

didn't understand why this was necessary. But

35:40

I'm glad you enjoyed it, Wally. And

35:44

thank you for your help. Well, thank you, COVID. Take care

35:46

now. Okay, buddy. Yeah,

35:48

you too. All the best. Nice

35:51

to hear from Wally and

35:53

I actually can picture Wally's church,

35:57

his Lutheran church who are many, many years ahead of

35:59

me. At least... 20 years ago. But

36:01

it's like every couple wasn't

36:04

too long ago that at

36:08

rethink or reality he brought his son

36:10

that was great and

36:12

all right so let's see shall

36:16

we take a break let's take another break quickly

36:18

and then we got some more callers will come to

36:20

Greg Coakill here stand the reason stay with us. Hey

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38:10

righty here. let's see looking

38:12

out who's on board on

38:15

some. All

38:17

right, let's take Tricia. He and

38:19

or chat with her. Tricia

38:21

in Rodgers Is that Arizona?

38:23

Or Arkansas? Now Arkansas. Okay,

38:25

great great heavy board. Tris.

38:28

Yes Okay M O and for I

38:31

asked my question. I've been a long

38:33

time podcast with nary of yours and

38:35

then I teach at a christian schools

38:37

though. every Wednesday we have worldview and

38:40

day and I show them some apologetics

38:42

video. It's a lotta times it's yours.

38:44

Oh great. You in a fight correct?

38:47

Or their favorite is Mister Be. Have

38:49

to say I really like us. To.

38:51

Be Well, I'm not surprised that

38:53

wrinkly and. He's

38:55

a guy is entertaining. a favorite of mine

38:57

too. and he has. He is entertaining but

38:59

he's very very bright. He and as the

39:02

I combination so glad to have I'm I'm

39:04

bored of it when we had him. Present.

39:07

This this was like the second year of

39:09

what is can do known as reality was

39:11

called rethink Their and and bread Kunkel who

39:13

is running their project and when he was

39:16

on the team with us are he added

39:18

come out to present in the first time

39:20

he presented i thought we gotta have the

39:22

sky and board he's fabulous he under he

39:24

was really sorry I just to be at

39:27

an event speaking for us than we are

39:29

said to be on the team had to

39:31

send him in a worm it but his

39:33

his come down to earth since then and

39:36

has been making. My contribution for us

39:38

for of what about ten years now so

39:40

as gray and calendula him. So.

39:43

You mind says. Okay, so

39:45

a couple of weeks ago I had some

39:47

Mormons kept my front door. Now this is

39:49

the first time I've ever had more than

39:51

that. Had a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses or.

39:54

And. In fact the oppose it I got

39:56

the I learned how to talk to the

39:59

Jehovah's Witnesses. I. Read all the stuff they gave

40:01

me and I. Asked questions

40:03

and. Then I

40:05

started reading books. I've read your book

40:07

tactic that I've not really. Studied.

40:10

Moments much for these two very young men

40:12

are probably early twenties. They come to the

40:14

door they as. They. Are inviting people

40:17

to church or say oh yeah, that's

40:19

great for which church do both you

40:21

and they say well as just a

40:24

christian church over on the corner of

40:26

whatever and whatever and I said okay,

40:28

what's the call and then I said

40:30

well at the Church of Latter Day

40:33

Saint okay for your Mormon and then

40:35

I said well I appreciate that you've

40:37

come to invite me to church. Birds

40:40

are your theology is not correct and

40:42

so I would never go to church

40:44

there. So and I

40:47

don't know really enough to talk

40:49

to them. Wanna be one of

40:51

the guys? He's ready to play

40:53

ball. He knows the game you

40:55

but he ask questions and says

40:57

which of archaeology do you think

40:59

is not correct. So. I.

41:02

Said no. for one thing I'm

41:04

pretty sure you don't believe in

41:06

the trinity and he said that

41:08

is correct and then he went

41:10

on to pay back. The disciples

41:12

also didn't believe in the trinity

41:15

and then he said and the

41:17

Trinity is actually an extra biblical

41:19

com that that came out of

41:21

the Council of my fear And

41:23

by the way when he said

41:25

extra biblical I had in my

41:27

mind the Book of Mormon Also

41:29

I would consider extra biblical by.

41:32

The others? ironic isn't it? Just. Bad? Ah yes,

41:34

but I don't know how to talk about the Book

41:36

of Mormon and I didn't wanna. Get. Myself

41:38

in any kind of. Corners. Males

41:40

will the school. By the way, the

41:42

book The Book of Mormon is not

41:44

very theological. it's is this is a

41:47

different historical book on a purports to

41:49

be about Jesus visit to a miracle

41:51

on he owned or it is the

41:53

other books like the Pro Agree Price

41:55

or the Doctor the confidence in other

41:57

writings and hard to see a logical.

42:00

Foundation of Mormonism. So it's good though

42:02

that you did not venture into those

42:04

waters because you're not familiar with them.

42:06

But as you're gonna find out, I

42:08

knew I'd go with your question. Suit

42:10

you. You don't need to know much

42:12

about Mormonism to be able to defend

42:15

the trinity and a biblical fashion to

42:17

go ahead a T when. Okay, oh

42:19

yes. And then oh then he

42:21

brings at the camp would like yeah as

42:23

to why do you know some about the

42:25

cathode like the and I'm pretty sure they

42:27

didn't talk about. The bring

42:29

up the trinity for the first

42:31

time there and then he said

42:33

well if Jesus is God like

42:35

you say election is plain Tuna

42:37

detained you. Know. Some that was

42:39

kind of a gotcha question as an I just

42:41

said well you know I don't know enough about

42:44

this. The I would love to

42:46

get some answers. I'm sure they'll be back.

42:48

They always seem to sure I know they're

42:50

on as heard report. Some. Friends of

42:52

mine that they are definitely on the move in

42:54

the area. I'm sure they'll be back. Yeah, edges

42:56

and I have a bird. I actually had a

42:58

book that public. That. Heard from

43:00

Day One or Wallace's podcast Probably

43:03

it's called introducing Christianity, the Mormon,

43:05

or something like. Day I hated

43:07

myself, went on a gym, did watch

43:09

out, and lied about it, and I.

43:12

I listened to a podcast. I think somebody

43:14

was talking. About service when I see

43:16

okay, this haven't. Yeah. I just

43:18

haven't read it. I'm sure it'll help me.

43:20

I'm just wondering. so how how is that?

43:23

I know trinity is not mentioned in the

43:25

bible for I just how to you the

43:28

sense that position. Yeah, okay I'm glad you

43:30

asked this question and are we going little bit of

43:32

time to talk about a here could. Did we lose

43:34

a commerce Some see the snow? This it Okay. great.

43:37

I. Think we lost somebody anyway. but

43:39

it's just you and I. Treasure are

43:41

just you and me to be own.

43:43

Grammatically correct. Your So arms. Let

43:46

me just recommended that the book street

43:48

smarts how's everything you need? I will

43:50

tell you basically was in my treatment

43:52

of this issue of or what is

43:55

what's in the book on my treatment

43:57

of this issue So I'll tell you

43:59

what. The As, but you can also

44:01

go to that book and I have

44:03

a whole section in that book talking

44:05

about these kinds of challenges to the

44:07

trinity. Okay, and the point that I

44:09

make my general approach is that the

44:11

trinity as a solution. It's

44:13

not a problem, It's a

44:16

solution, not a problem and a

44:18

solution. Especially. With people

44:20

who have a high regard

44:23

for scripture, this would be

44:25

Jehovah's Witnesses of course, and

44:27

the Lds Your Lds friends.

44:29

Okay, so or since we

44:31

are both agreeing that the

44:33

bible is. An. Authoritative sources

44:35

of information about God Arm:

44:37

If you don't have the

44:39

trinity, you have a big

44:42

problem. Okay, Bellamy back

44:44

up just a little bit. The Council

44:46

of Nice see it was about this

44:48

issue. In. A certain fashion,

44:50

it wasn't about the trinity writ

44:52

broad because that's father, son, and

44:54

holy spirit, but it was about

44:56

the sun and what it meant

44:59

to be the son of God.

45:01

Okay and of their The Sun's

45:03

relationship to the father and so

45:05

it's certainly had Trinity area in.

45:08

Our. Implications because the

45:10

question was was the

45:12

song like the Father.

45:15

Of. A similar essence or was

45:17

the son of the same essence

45:20

and I don't we the same

45:22

kind about essence. I mean the

45:24

the as same essence itself was

45:26

the sun god and the father

45:28

god even though there's one god.

45:30

So they did talk about that

45:32

issue and they came to the

45:35

conclusion. That the Council of

45:37

Dicier that the sun shared the

45:39

same essence as the father. That

45:42

is not the Mormon feel. The. Mormon

45:44

few is that the father that they have

45:46

a similar kind of essence. Just.

45:48

Like you would have a human nature and

45:50

I would have been human nature but we

45:52

are distinct individuals. That's. The

45:54

Mormon view. Of Jesus

45:57

relationship with the Father. They

45:59

are both. Line. And

46:01

they both have a divine nature, but

46:04

they are completely separate, distinct individuals. Which

46:06

means you have to. Gods and Mormonism.

46:08

Actually, you have three kids, the Holy

46:10

spirit, and a whole bunch more. But

46:13

Mormonism turns out to be polytheistic in

46:15

their view. But I'm just clear for

46:17

cats to close clarifying the the. The.

46:20

Council of and I see it

46:22

did address an issue that is

46:24

relevant. To. The Trinity. But they

46:26

didn't cash out the full trinity. They

46:28

were just talking principally about the relationship

46:30

the Father in the Sun. Okay,

46:33

Now that's what. Okay, but

46:35

they didn't invent this idea.

46:39

The the word trinity first

46:41

shows up. With to tell

46:43

Leon and certainly in as the late

46:45

Second century. So you have one hundred

46:47

and twenty five to one hundred and

46:49

forty years before the Council Of and

46:51

I see. That. The word trinity

46:53

is used. So he

46:55

wasn't invented. If they council of dicier

46:58

it was in play. Long

47:00

before that. Just as a point

47:02

of historical information. okay, So

47:05

here's the question that I would ask when he

47:07

said. He said

47:09

well the trinity as the is extra

47:11

biblical concept created because when I see

47:13

it all rights I would ask him

47:15

tell me what you understand. Christians.

47:19

To mean. When. They say

47:21

the trinity. What? Is

47:23

a definition of the trinity and let

47:25

him give you his definition. To

47:28

see if he's got an accurate definition

47:31

and if a person has an accurate

47:33

definition than there's no way they would

47:35

be asking the question. Who was Jesus

47:38

praying to have he's God. Because.

47:41

That that question is

47:44

resolved. With. An

47:46

accurate understanding of the trinity.

47:48

Okay so let me give you

47:50

have of an accurate way of

47:52

defining the trinity. There is one.

47:55

God. But

47:58

they were three. But. We're just. Them

48:00

to call centers of caution Consciousness.

48:03

Normal. We talked with three persons,

48:05

but sometimes that language is not

48:07

clear enough. Inside the one God

48:09

are three centers of consciousness: One

48:11

what and three whose. So.

48:13

To speak. Okay, And

48:16

the the second

48:18

person. Took. On

48:21

humanity in the person of

48:23

Jesus. So we say God

48:25

became a man. but strictly

48:27

speaking it's God. Took humanity

48:29

on to himself. So you

48:31

have the divine nature in

48:33

the sun. Adding to it

48:35

a human nature. You. Have one

48:37

person the sun with two natures to the

48:39

nature of God and the nature of man.

48:42

Okay, But they're still only

48:44

one God. Now I understand the thefts

48:46

seems weird. Okay, Fine.

48:49

It is. but it's not contradictory

48:52

because on our definition, there is

48:54

one god and three persons inside

48:56

the inside, so to speak, three

48:59

centers of consciousness and one of

49:01

those, the sun. Also. Called

49:03

The Word and John. Chapter One. Cook.

49:06

On humanity in the person of

49:08

Christ and the word became flesh

49:10

and to among us and we

49:12

do feel we are Ubs We

49:14

we we be held his Glory

49:16

John Chapter One Case The key

49:18

thing I'm getting at here is

49:20

that on our definition of the

49:22

trinity, there is one God, but

49:24

three distinct person's each of which

49:26

are fully God. With

49:29

me. Yeah, Okay,

49:31

so the reason we say that is The

49:34

Bible teaches that there's one God. It

49:37

also identifies a difference or a

49:39

distinction between the father and the

49:41

sun. And the spirit. Their.

49:44

It they are all three of more. They

49:46

are represented At his his baptism, the Father

49:48

speaks over Jesus. The Holy Spirit hovers in

49:50

the form of a dog. Okay,

49:53

so we know they're distinct but we all know

49:56

a in one sense but we all know that

49:58

this that they are the one god And the

50:00

reason we know that is because they're called God and

50:03

they also have the attributes of God. Now

50:08

I'm giving you a thumbnail sketch quickly

50:10

here, but all of the details are

50:12

in the Street Smarts book. Okay,

50:15

and if you go to John chapter one, verse

50:18

three, by the way, notice how John

50:20

starts. In the beginning was the word.

50:22

So the word is the one that became man

50:24

in verse 14, but that word

50:26

was there in the beginning. Notice how

50:28

John starts the story of Jesus, the same

50:31

way the Bible starts the story of reality.

50:33

In the beginning, God

50:36

created the heavens and the earth. And

50:38

here's what John says about the word. In the

50:40

beginning was the word and the

50:42

word was with God and the word was God. He was

50:44

in beginning with God. All

50:46

things came into being through him,

50:49

the word, and apart from him,

50:51

nothing came into being that has come into being.

50:54

Now, what this shows us in verse three is

50:57

that the one called the word is

50:59

the one who created everything that was

51:02

ever created, which means he couldn't have

51:04

been created. So who

51:06

is the one who created everything that's

51:08

ever been created? God,

51:12

there's no option. That's it. So

51:15

the word who was

51:17

with God also was God, and

51:19

he was the creator of everything. So

51:22

that passage in John then

51:24

refutes the claim that

51:26

the disciples also didn't believe in infinity.

51:28

Of course, absolutely. They didn't use that word

51:31

to describe it. It doesn't matter if they

51:33

use that word to describe it. The

51:36

standard way of the early church, the

51:39

disciples, et cetera, referred to Jesus was

51:41

as the Lord, the Lord, or

51:47

the Son of God or

51:49

the Son of Man. All

51:52

of those words are words

51:54

that represent full divinity. And

51:56

That was understood by the people there. We

52:00

have this unique situation where God

52:02

actually. Takes. On Humanity.

52:05

Okay, So now you have

52:08

Jesus who is the second person. Who

52:10

is talking to the father? Who is the

52:13

first person? So who

52:15

is Jesus praying to? He's praying to the

52:17

father. But. Are three

52:19

both? God Yes! Where. The Jesus

52:21

is praying to himself Know Jesus is

52:23

the second person of the trinity who's

52:25

talking to the first person of the

52:27

trinity. Listen when

52:29

you when I talked to the father

52:32

we do not talk to his essence,

52:34

We talk to his person. Just

52:37

like when I talk to you Tricia,

52:39

I'm not talking to your humanity. You're

52:41

human nature. I'm talking to your personhood.

52:43

On talk to the Tricia. Who

52:45

is a human being? But I'm talking

52:48

to Tricia in the same way we

52:50

talked to the father. We don't pray

52:52

to his essence. We pray to his

52:54

person. Jesus is a

52:56

separate person from the father so Jesus

52:58

can talk to the to the father.

53:01

But. He is also fully God. And if

53:03

he's not fully god, what do we make

53:05

of? Of a Judge John.

53:08

Chapter One To The Chapter One Verse

53:10

One two and three. The

53:12

point I'm making here is. There's. Only

53:15

one way to make the bible verses

53:17

makes sense. And that

53:19

is the doctrine of the trinity. If you

53:22

don't have the doctrine of the trinity, none

53:24

of the Vs makes sense that refer to

53:26

God and Jesus. They contradict each other. But

53:29

if you have the Trinity then it makes sense

53:31

to call Jesus God because the test calls him

53:33

God. It makes sense to

53:35

worship him as the creator because John says he's

53:38

the one created everything that was ever created. But

53:41

as also makes sense to have Jesus talk to

53:43

the father because they're separate persons. That. Makes

53:45

perfect sense. What?

53:48

Doesn't make sense is any other

53:50

doctrine? Any.

53:54

Other Doctrine Certainly the doctrine of

53:56

the Mormons. That. make cheese

53:58

is a separate god And

54:00

the Father is separate God and in

54:02

spirit of separate God that's called polytheism.

54:04

You have minimum three gods Actually have

54:06

more than that in Mormonism, but but

54:09

minimum you got three gods. They call

54:11

that the Trinity But they

54:13

mean it different than we mean it.

54:16

So he's right. They believe something

54:18

very different from us. But the question is Does

54:22

the Bible teach those three elements that

54:24

there's one God that the Father Son

54:26

and the Spirit are distinct But each

54:28

of them is fully God Those

54:31

are the three elements and if

54:33

you can find the Bible verses that support

54:36

those three elements Then

54:39

we have biblical support for

54:41

what we later came to

54:43

call the Trinity Doesn't

54:46

matter what you call it or when you

54:48

call it that what matters is what's actually

54:50

taught in Scripture And

54:53

the early church believed Jesus was God

54:56

They believed the Holy Spirit was God Book

54:59

of Acts, you know Ananias

55:01

and Sapphira you lied to the

55:03

Holy Spirit you lied to God

55:07

You read the context? Okay,

55:10

so the Holy Spirit's God

55:12

Jesus is God. The Father is God, but

55:14

they're not three gods. They're all one God So

55:19

there must be something like the doctrine of the Trinity

55:21

to make sense of those of

55:23

those particular aspects That's

55:26

why I call it a Solution

55:29

not a problem Now

55:32

I said a lot really fast there but it

55:34

does is that making sense to you so far

55:38

Yes, I took no. I took notes. I

55:40

am gonna get your street smart book.

55:42

Okay good and and that tactic I've

55:45

read tactics. Yeah, that's great and in

55:47

this particular book though It goes in

55:49

the details of this particular challenge. And

55:52

so and why is it the Son of

55:54

God? Why does that mean Jesus

55:56

is God because that was what the language meant when

55:59

he used the phrase? And

56:01

I explain that in the book as well. So all

56:03

of those details will be available to you. But

56:05

the first thing out of the gate,

56:07

when you talk to these guys again,

56:10

you know now that the concept of

56:12

the Trinity or the substance

56:14

of the Trinity was not something

56:16

invented in 325, but

56:19

it was something that the early church

56:21

actually held and believed, and we see

56:23

the details in the text. Okay? And

56:26

also ask him what is his understanding

56:28

of what we think the Trinity is.

56:31

And if he gets it wrong, you say, here's

56:33

what the teaching is. There's one God, there's three

56:35

distinct persons, but

56:38

each of them is fully God. They

56:41

participate in the divine nature. And

56:43

that's why they can talk to each other, because

56:45

they're different persons, even though they're

56:47

the same God. And that's

56:50

all explained there in that chapter for you. Okay,

56:52

Trish? All right. Yeah, get the book, talk

56:54

to your friends in a couple of months,

56:56

give me a call back and we'll chat

56:59

some more about your conversations, all right? All

57:03

right. Gotcha. Thanks so much, Trisha. And

57:05

that's it. Perfect timing with the music.

57:07

Greg Coakley here for Stand to Reason.

57:10

Good to be with you today. Give them heaven, all right? Thank

57:21

you.