0:04

You are

0:29

listening to Stand to Reason and thank

0:32

you for doing so. Greg Coak will hear

0:34

your host and I

0:37

have in front of me a few

0:39

open mic calls that have been sitting here in

0:41

front of me for a while. I thought maybe

0:44

it's a good idea just to try to answer

0:46

some of these and I'm

0:48

so thankful for you those of you

0:50

who have either called those questions

0:52

in or use

0:57

the internet connection for that or website

0:59

connection. Open mic calls are when

1:01

you call or contact us

1:03

through the internet and leave your question verbally

1:06

and then when we get around to it we'll

1:09

play that question and I'll respond to it. The

1:11

only difference with a regular call is you and

1:13

I don't interact but at least you

1:15

can express your your thoughts

1:17

here and raise an issue if you want to

1:20

and I can respond to it. So here's

1:24

a couple of things maybe these

1:27

will go fast these first couple.

1:29

So let's start with Trent okay

1:32

and this is a question about eternal generation

1:34

what has to do with the relationship

1:37

of the son to

1:39

the father I think. Hi this

1:47

is Trent Blake. I had

1:49

a question about the Athanasian Creed and how

1:51

the believer should relate to it in authority.

1:54

Same thing with the Nicene Creed. It

1:56

says whoever desires to be saved should

1:58

above all whole to to the Catholic

2:00

or lowercase c faith. Anyone

2:03

who does not keep it in whole

2:05

and unbroken will doubt this parish

2:07

eternally. So my question is from

2:09

that, if someone does not affirm every

2:11

small point of the creed, does that mean

2:13

they are not saved? It says,

2:15

this is the Catholic faith and it goes on to explain

2:18

it. But one thing that

2:20

I actually do disagree with the

2:22

creed is in

2:25

the 21st verse, of

2:30

the creed, it says, the father

2:32

was neither made nor created, nor begotten from anyone so

2:35

far so good. Then it goes into the 22nd.

2:37

The son was neither made nor created, so far

2:39

so good. He was begotten from

2:42

the father alone. And

2:44

my church history professor has told me

2:46

that this right here refers to the

2:48

doctrine of eternal generation. The idea

2:50

that the father eternally

2:52

begets the son or is

2:54

the origin of the son for all of

2:57

eternity. And this

2:59

seems to, I guess,

3:01

be problematic for me. It seems to make

3:03

the son into a, almost like a lesser

3:06

being. Or the ordinary, that's what the early

3:08

church was advocating

3:11

against. And so my

3:13

question is, if someone who does not

3:15

believe in eternal generation, does this mean

3:17

that my salvation is at stake? I

3:20

believe that the three persons of eternity

3:22

are all equally God, they're all equally

3:25

individual persons, but they're still one God. I

3:28

don't believe in eternal generation. So thank

3:30

you so much. I appreciate your feedback. And this

3:33

would be really helpful for me to know.

3:35

Thank you, goodbye. Yeah, Trent, you're welcome. And

3:37

there's a lot there here, but I

3:40

think you summed it up well at the end.

3:42

You're referring, of course, to the Athanasian Creed. And

3:48

what's going on is an attempt to find a way to

3:53

clearly distinguish the

3:56

father from the son and the spirit. Okay.

4:00

one way that they have distinguished distinct.

4:04

They are distinct, but in what sense

4:06

are they distinct, even

4:09

though they share the same nature? And

4:11

there is an approach called the economic trinity

4:14

and all that means

4:16

is that, well, the different members of the trinity

4:18

have different jobs. They

4:21

function differently in unison with each

4:23

other, but they do particular things.

4:25

The Father sends the Son, the

4:27

Son dies for sins, the Holy

4:31

Spirit regenerates, etc.,

4:34

etc. And here's another kind

4:37

of attempt at trying to find a

4:39

way to distinguish the

4:42

members of the trinity. That

4:44

the Son is

4:47

generated by the Father,

4:49

but they were careful

4:51

in the language to

4:53

not suggest that

4:55

this generation was something

4:57

that was temporal. So

5:00

you have, that is, you

5:02

have the Father by

5:04

Himself who then generates

5:07

the Son. Okay,

5:10

because then you have the Father existing before

5:12

the Son and you have

5:14

with the Son a lesser being, but

5:17

rather the generation, the relationship of

5:20

generation that the Father

5:22

was generating the Son was

5:26

throughout all eternity.

5:28

And the way Lewis characterizes this

5:30

in mere Christianity is he

5:32

just, he says, just think of a, I think

5:35

this is his illustration, think

5:37

of a bowling ball sitting

5:41

on a cushion. Now the

5:44

bowling ball is causing the dent

5:48

in the cushion because of the weight

5:50

of the bowling ball. So there's a,

5:53

in a certain sense, a casual relationship.

5:55

It is the bowling ball creating, after

5:57

fashion, the dent. But

6:00

then he says think about the cushion and

6:02

the bowling ball and the subsequent dent as

6:06

Something that was eternal. It

6:09

was always there so it

6:12

wasn't as if there was a Cushion

6:14

and then a bowling ball and

6:17

then the creation of a dent But

6:19

always sitting in this case in this

6:21

place so you would have a logical

6:24

relationship between them. That is

6:26

the bowling ball

6:28

would be causing The

6:30

dent in the cushion But

6:32

you don't have a temporal relationship because

6:35

there is no before or after there

6:38

Now that's a way of illustrating how you

6:40

can have the father generating

6:43

the son in

6:46

eternity so that there is

6:48

a Logical relationship and dependency

6:50

but at the same time there

6:52

is no temporal order

6:56

Meaning that one comes first and then the other

6:58

one comes into being through

7:01

the generation The

7:03

third person of the spirit is

7:05

called the spirit and the spirit is said to

7:07

spy rate From either

7:09

the father or the father and the son and

7:11

this is a difference of opinion between the Western

7:13

Church and the Eastern Church but I

7:17

For myself I honestly and

7:20

some people May

7:22

not like this, but I don't pay much

7:24

attention to those details Those

7:27

things are more high theology that

7:29

people more clever than I can parse

7:31

out but

7:35

Keep in mind that the creeds are

7:37

valuable, but they're not Scripture That

7:41

is in principle You could disagree with a creed

7:43

or some detail of a creed and still be

7:45

a Christian Even though the people

7:47

who wrote the Creed say that this

7:49

is the Catholic faith meaning the universal faith

7:51

and all have to hold To this in

7:53

order to be saved No,

7:56

I think what you have to do to be saved is believe in

7:58

the Lord Jesus Christ you'll

8:00

be saved. That's in Acts

8:03

chapter 16, the Philippine jailer,

8:06

the response to him from the Apostle

8:08

Paul when the jailer said, what must I

8:11

do to be saved? Now

8:13

think about generation there. Now

8:15

there's value I think in the subsequent

8:17

discussions of trying to clarify

8:21

some of these details. A lot

8:23

of times that's necessary

8:25

because people go down the wrong path, the

8:28

Arians for example, the Gnostics for

8:30

example, and a whole bunch of others. Those

8:32

first three or four centuries, all kinds of

8:34

nonsense going down. So Christians had to get

8:37

together and use more refined tools, philosophical

8:40

tools, to make the distinctions

8:42

that were necessary to make to be able

8:44

to preserve the faith. Now sometimes

8:47

they sliced it a whole lot finer than

8:50

I think is really necessary and my sense

8:52

is that this is an example of that.

8:54

So I

8:57

don't have a horse in this

9:01

race. I guess

9:03

if the Athanasian Creed says that the

9:06

son was eternally generated

9:08

from the father, then maybe they're on to something.

9:10

But it's

9:15

not where I live and

9:17

it's not I

9:20

would say essential

9:23

theology. I wouldn't say that

9:25

even though the Creed uses that language. Maybe

9:28

I'd have friends that would say that. I

9:31

don't know. But I would suggest there's a couple of

9:34

books. Fred Sanders, one of our

9:36

friends and we've had him on before and

9:38

he's written a number of books on the Trinity. I could

9:40

probably clarify that a little bit better. Amy's

9:43

got a favorite that she

9:45

reads. Yes, it's not Fred's. It's somebody

9:48

else's. Delight.

9:52

It's not philosophical. Delighting in the Trinity is

9:54

the one that she likes but it may

9:56

not get into this issue. And

9:58

again I think this issue is going to have interest

10:01

for those who believe

10:27

Jesus saves you. It

10:29

covers all the bases. Well, it covers some bases,

10:31

but there's a whole lot more in Scripture than

10:34

just that. And so there's

10:36

a lot to know and understand and to learn that will

10:38

help us to know God better. At

10:41

the same time, some

10:43

people go way deeper

10:45

than the foundational stuff

10:48

that is still pretty broad. And

10:51

I think this is an example of that. So

10:53

I wouldn't worry about it. All

10:57

right, so he

11:01

wrote a book on Fred Sanders. Okay,

11:03

well, there you go. I guess Fred

11:06

would really retrieving,

11:10

okay, well, retrieving

11:13

eternal generation.

11:17

Fred Sanders. No

11:20

kidding. It's amazing. I guess

11:22

it's pretty important then, at least to Fred.

11:25

And if anybody wants more detail, that

11:28

would be the place to go. Oh,

11:32

I see. Okay, so he's edited a

11:34

book of essays on this

11:36

issue. But still, if he's

11:38

the editor, he thinks it's pretty important. Somebody

11:41

published it. So, all right, there you go. Let's

11:45

see where we're at. Brian has

11:47

raised a question about the

11:50

question of significance.

11:52

Let's see what he has to say. Brian?

11:55

This is Brian. Hey, why

11:58

is the question of significance? the

12:00

most important question facing America

12:03

today? Well

12:06

this is one of those occasions

12:09

and they're frequent for me with

12:11

open mic calls where I wish I could have

12:13

more interaction with the

12:15

caller in this case. Well

12:19

it says Brian here but it's Curtis Brian is that

12:21

right okay so Curtis this is his first name. I

12:25

because I'm not first of all the question

12:27

it's a complex question that is it asks

12:30

the question that presumes the answer to another

12:32

question. Why is the question of significance the

12:34

most important question facing America today? I don't

12:36

know that it is the most important. I

12:39

would I would want to ask that question

12:42

who said it's the most important? No I'm

12:44

not denying that but I would

12:46

say it's if I were to address

12:49

the question of significance which itself

12:51

is a bit vague.

12:54

Significance in what sense? I wouldn't

12:57

think it's an American issue. I would

13:00

think it's a human issue and

13:04

there I certainly think that

13:07

the notion of whether

13:09

or not humans are significant

13:13

deeply and profoundly significant

13:16

and if they are why are they

13:19

is a critical issue

13:22

for life. It's the kind

13:24

of question that not just Americans are

13:26

facing today but people

13:28

have faced from time

13:31

immemorial and people

13:33

have come up with different answers. Actually there

13:35

are two answers now when I think about

13:37

it for the sake of simplification. Given

13:40

the question are humans we'll

13:43

just call it deeply significant profoundly

13:46

significant significant

13:49

in a weighty fashion in

13:51

a transcendent sense. Are

13:55

they significant? And there are

13:57

two possible answers yes or no. Now,

14:01

when I wrote the book

14:03

Street Smarts, I started out

14:05

the series of the chapters

14:08

with series of challenges to Christianity. I

14:11

started out with the issue of atheism. The

14:14

reason I started out with atheism is

14:16

because atheism is the watershed question. Whether

14:19

or not there is a God is

14:22

the question, the issue

14:24

that will determine two

14:26

entirely different directions that

14:28

you go with everything

14:31

else. Now, if

14:33

there is no God, the

14:36

direction that you are forced into,

14:38

however you characterize your personal life,

14:41

it ultimately the

14:43

the direction is in

14:45

is nihilistic. Nihilism

14:48

is nothingism.

14:52

That is, if there is no God,

14:54

there may be some exceptions to this.

14:56

I'm just speaking in general. I mean

14:58

people come up with different characterizations. But

15:01

if there is no God and instead

15:03

all we have

15:07

is molecules in motion, isn't

15:11

it simply obvious that

15:14

the question of

15:16

significance is answered in the negative?

15:21

In what sense could anything be

15:23

significant in a deep way if

15:27

all we have is molecules

15:29

in motion? Now, the

15:31

molecules can take different shapes.

15:33

They can move at different speeds in

15:35

different directions. But ultimately, this is all

15:38

you're left with. For

15:41

materialists or a

15:43

lot of people who are

15:46

de facto materialists, they function as

15:48

if matter in motion is

15:50

all there is. I don't know

15:52

what else you're going to be able to say.

15:54

You could say, well, I

15:56

have my own significance. Really?

15:59

What do just what does that mean? I

16:03

feel I'm significant. Okay,

16:06

well good for you. What about the person who wants

16:08

to take their own life because they don't feel they're

16:10

significant? What are you going to say? If

16:14

significance is just tied to feelings,

16:17

then that's not deep

16:19

significance. That's shallow

16:23

significance. That's feelings

16:25

of significance with no reason

16:27

to be significant. Once

16:31

one realizes

16:34

that the feelings of

16:36

significance have no grounding,

16:38

no justification, then it

16:40

doesn't feel so good

16:42

anymore. People want

16:45

to take their lives. This is characteristic of

16:47

many in the past. But

16:51

if there is a God, this suggests

16:53

at least the possibility that God,

16:55

who is responsible for all the

16:57

molecules in motion, put

16:59

the molecules in motion in

17:01

particular ways for reasons. Therefore,

17:05

human beings could be

17:07

more than just

17:09

matter in motion. They could

17:12

be individuals who have a higher

17:15

purpose given to them or

17:17

established by God. Now you're talking real

17:20

significance and it seems

17:22

to be one or the other. Now certainly

17:25

in the Christian understanding of reality, that's

17:27

the way it is. I guess

17:31

I'm trying to think, what could

17:36

be more important than the

17:38

question of significance? Whether

17:42

significance is fleeting

17:44

and ephemeral and a

17:46

feeling that we apply however

17:48

we want to apply it in the

17:51

moment or whether there is

17:53

a standard of some sort that's

17:56

fixed and objective

17:58

that establishes genuine

18:01

significance for human beings.

18:07

When people start believing

18:10

nothing-ism, nihilism,

18:14

then bad things begin

18:16

to happen. So

18:20

I guess

18:22

I would agree with you, Curtis,

18:26

that significance is

18:28

a decisive element and

18:30

it is tied to

18:32

our basic understanding of the nature of

18:34

reality. The sad

18:37

thing about it is people are

18:39

holding views that reduces

18:42

them to cosmic junk, yet

18:47

they act and feel as if

18:49

they're not. And

18:51

the answer of why they do that

18:53

is because they are not. They

18:56

are human beings made in the image of God and

18:58

they live in the world that God made and that's

19:00

a world of significance. But they don't

19:02

want God for their own

19:04

reasons. They want autonomy. They want

19:06

to be on their own and

19:08

by themselves and in charge, but

19:13

then also hold on to

19:15

the values and significance that

19:17

a theistic

19:19

worldview provides for them. I

19:22

remember in my own life, over 50 years ago,

19:24

it was very close to when I became a

19:26

Christian, when

19:29

I had all these ideas too that

19:31

made me feel good, I felt significant, and

19:33

all that. And then I

19:36

realized when certain aspects of

19:38

my life came crashing down

19:40

around me that I was

19:42

alone. I was

19:44

ultimately alone and

19:47

I called it cosmic alienation. That

19:50

was the language I used to describe

19:52

it. But I

19:54

was coming face to

19:56

face with the consequence of

19:58

my or the the logical end

20:00

of the views that I held. And

20:05

I think this prepared me for considering

20:10

Christ, which

20:13

happened within a

20:15

couple years after that and I became a Christian.

20:18

So hope that helps Brian. Let me take a

20:20

break right now and we'll come back to more

20:22

of your questions on open mic calls on Stand

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22:32

By the way, if you want to participate

22:35

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in other words, if you call this number then you

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23:18

so with

23:20

that in mind, let's go to what

23:24

we've got here. It looks like Landon to me,

23:26

so let's see

23:28

what Landon has to say. Good

23:32

morning, Mr. Koukl. This is Landon Pepper.

23:34

I greatly appreciate your

23:36

ministry and I'd like your thoughts on who

23:38

Jesus was referring to in Matthew

23:40

7, 21 through 23 when he said, Not

23:46

everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will

23:48

enter the kingdom of heaven, but

23:50

only the ones who does

23:53

the will of my Father who

23:55

is in heaven. I'm

23:57

struggling with comparing that verse in

24:01

comparison to ones like Ephesians 2, 8, and 9, Romans

24:03

10, 9, John 3, 16, Galatians 2, 16

24:10

through 21, which describes the gospel so

24:13

simply and wonderfully as

24:16

compared to Matthew 7, 21

24:19

through 23, which appears to set the bar

24:21

for salvation much higher. Look

24:23

forward to your response. Thank you very much.

24:25

Yeah, thank you, Landon, for that question.

24:28

And I want

24:30

you to think about the Sermon

24:32

on the Mount. It

24:35

may be a different way than you've thought about it before.

24:37

There are a lot of things. You talked about setting the

24:40

bar higher. Actually,

24:42

it's even worse at the beginning of the Sermon

24:44

on the Mount, where

24:46

Jesus says, after the blessings,

24:50

you know, blessed

24:53

are those, etc., etc., the beatitudes, He

24:55

then says that unless your

25:00

righteousness exceeds

25:03

the righteousness of the scribes and

25:05

Pharisees, you cannot enter the

25:08

kingdom of God. Then He gives examples

25:10

of that with murder. Oh, okay, I didn't murder.

25:12

Well, you call your brother a fool. Okay, well,

25:14

you're going to hell. Or

25:17

adultery, didn't do that. Do you ever think about

25:20

it? Uh-huh. Then you're going to hell.

25:23

Whoa, that's pretty intense. And

25:26

what Jesus is demonstrating here

25:29

is the demand of

25:31

the law. If

25:33

you are going to come to God based

25:36

on your own ability

25:41

to do good, then

25:43

what's required is

25:45

moral perfection. In fact,

25:48

Jesus says that at

25:50

the end of chapter,

25:53

I think it's at the end

25:55

of chapter six. I'm looking for it right now. There it

25:57

is. No, at the end of chapter five, therefore you are

25:59

to be perfect. as

26:01

your heavenly Father is perfect. Now, that's an

26:03

impossible standard. I think

26:05

we get to chapter 7, he's exploring

26:08

some different things, but what I want you

26:10

to take, first of all, from the Sermon

26:12

on the Mount is

26:14

that the law creates a demand

26:17

that is impossible to keep. And

26:19

we see this in a number of places. We

26:23

see, for example, in

26:26

Paul's characterization of the

26:28

Gospel in Romans, he starts out

26:30

not with the good news, but the bad news, and

26:33

that there's none good, not even one. You

26:35

fall short of the glory of God, you're a sinner, and

26:39

everybody falls short so

26:41

that every mouth should be closed, basically. We

26:43

all become accountable, all right?

26:45

So the law is

26:47

shutting us all up under sin,

26:51

and this then becomes the stepping stone.

26:54

Paul argues this in Galatians. It's

26:56

like a tutor that brings us

26:58

to the grace of God. When we were

27:00

aware about how far we fall

27:04

from the righteous standards that

27:06

God requires, we realize we can't

27:08

do this. It's

27:12

like that tax collector that Jesus

27:14

talked about in the parable where the

27:17

tax collectors in the back of

27:20

the church, in a synagogue, sorry,

27:24

and the Pharisee, the holy roller

27:26

guy, he's up in the front, and he's bragging

27:28

about how good he is, and

27:31

the tax collector, who is an

27:33

extortionist, they collected taxes for Rome,

27:36

but they also extorted more money

27:39

from the Jews for themselves. And

27:43

so therefore they were hated as

27:46

terrible sinners, and they were terrible sinners,

27:48

but the one in the front of

27:50

the synagogue, the Pharisee, the religious guy,

27:53

was also a sinner, Jesus' point. And

27:55

the tax-gatherer was not willing to

27:57

lift his eyes to heaven. heaven

28:00

is beating his breast in the back saying, Lord have

28:02

mercy on me, a sinner.

28:04

And Jesus says it's the one in

28:06

the back there who's acknowledging

28:09

his sin that went away justified, not the

28:11

one on the front who's bragging about all

28:14

the things that he does spiritually. And that's

28:16

why Jesus says in the back, the attitudes,

28:18

blessed are the poor in spirit. That

28:21

is, you understand your spiritual poverty. And

28:26

that puts us in a position then to

28:29

receive the forgiveness that's available for

28:31

those who are beating their breast asking for

28:34

mercy. Okay,

28:36

so I want to put that all in perspective. And

28:40

so verses like Ephesians 2.8-9

28:42

that you mentioned, Landon, by

28:45

grace you have been saved through faith.

28:47

It's not of yourselves. It's

28:49

a gift of God, not of

28:52

works, lest anyone boast.

28:56

The Pharisee was in the front of the synagogue boasting.

28:59

The tax collector was in the back,

29:03

not boasting, but confessing. And

29:07

so that's why the grace of God

29:09

is available in all the other verses

29:11

that you mentioned, Landon, apply in there.

29:13

Okay, now once one

29:15

understands their fallenness before

29:18

God and

29:20

sues for mercy basically

29:23

beats his breast and says, Lord

29:25

have mercy on me a sinner, turns

29:28

to the Father in Christ.

29:31

And there's lots of ways that we've used

29:33

to describe this and we see different

29:35

characterizations in the text,

29:37

receiving Christ, believing in Christ,

29:39

confessing Christ, trusting in Christ.

29:42

These are all essentially the same thing. We

29:47

are putting our confidence. We

29:51

are appropriating the Savior

29:54

for ourselves because

29:56

we need Him. What

29:59

happens then is a change takes place

30:02

and that's called the new birth. If

30:05

anybody is in Christ, he is a new creature.

30:07

The old things have passed away. Behold, all

30:09

things have become new. That's in 2nd Corinthians

30:11

somewhere. And so

30:14

we have this transformation based

30:17

on grace, in

30:19

virtue of grace, based on our need of

30:23

grace. Okay,

30:26

so this has

30:28

this transformation has ramifications in

30:30

our lives. And

30:32

we have, we are, as

30:35

we're following Jesus, growing in holiness

30:38

and the grace of

30:40

God and being sanctified, etc.

30:43

Now of course this builds a community

30:47

of people who

30:49

are identifying with Christ in some sense.

30:52

But Jesus is also, has also pointed

30:54

out in another parable that you're

30:57

gonna have wheat and you're gonna

31:00

have tears. That is mixed

31:03

in with the true believers will be

31:05

false believers. And there

31:07

are a number of warnings about that. Jesus

31:10

says, why do you call me Lord

31:12

Lord when

31:15

you don't do the things I say? And

31:18

so there is a group of people

31:20

then within the larger community that

31:23

identify as part of the community but turn

31:25

out not really to be members of the

31:27

community in God's sight. They

31:30

are the tares, the weeds, and

31:34

their behavior is evidence

31:37

of that. And

31:39

this is the context of the warning

31:42

in Matthew 7. Because

31:45

what Jesus isn't doing

31:47

here is saying

31:49

at this point that

31:51

you are going to be saved

31:54

by doing the will of the Father.

31:57

He said, he is

31:59

just simply, I identifying that within the

32:01

community there are going to be as

32:03

he puts it false prophets

32:07

who come in sheep's clothing

32:10

but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

32:12

This is verse 15 of

32:14

chapter 7. That's the beginning

32:16

of that paricope, that

32:19

section of Scripture, that

32:22

teaching. So he's saying

32:24

that within the fold there

32:26

are going to be people who look

32:29

like us in many ways but

32:31

turn out not to be part of

32:34

the fold. They are not sheep, they are

32:36

wolves and the wolves will

32:39

destroy. And then he goes

32:41

on to describe the fruit

32:45

that is the evidence of

32:48

either a sheep or a wolf.

32:51

And what's interesting is the way he ends

32:53

it. The last

32:55

verse which I

32:58

don't think you actually mentioned, you mentioned

33:00

here not everyone

33:04

who says to me, Lord, Lord

33:06

will enter the kingdom of heaven.

33:09

Right. Just because you

33:11

identify as a

33:14

Christian doesn't mean you are one.

33:17

But he who does the will of my father

33:20

who is in heaven will enter. And

33:22

I think this is an indicative

33:25

and we see statements like this in

33:27

other passages. We have

33:29

clear statements of salvation by grace through

33:32

faith just like the Ephesians

33:34

passage that we mentioned. And at the

33:36

same time we have warnings

33:38

about people who are pretenders. In

33:42

1st Corinthians chapter

33:44

6 Paul is warning

33:46

against those who are continually sinning

33:49

in grotesque ways. He

33:52

said, look, you will not inherit the kingdom if

33:54

this is the way you live. And

33:57

I think that's also an indicative that

34:00

your lifestyle is indicating

34:02

that you have not

34:05

put, that you're unregenerate, that

34:07

you have not put your confidence genuinely in

34:09

Christ and are seeking to follow Him as

34:12

best you can. And it's interesting the

34:15

way he ends this section.

34:18

He says, many will say to me on that

34:20

day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your

34:22

name and your name cast out demons and your

34:24

name performed many miracles? Look at all these things

34:27

that we're doing. And

34:29

he says, and then I will

34:31

declare to them, I never

34:34

knew you. Interesting choice of words.

34:38

I never knew you. These

34:40

aren't people like, yeah, I used to know you,

34:43

but then you got real nasty and that bugs me and

34:45

so you're out. No, Jesus

34:47

says, I never knew you, depart

34:49

from me. And look how he

34:51

qualifies it. You who practice lawlessness.

34:56

If you claim to be a Christian and

34:59

are living a profligate life,

35:02

a lawless, a morally

35:04

lawless life, then

35:08

you cannot properly lay hold of the

35:10

claim of being regenerate and being part

35:12

of the body of Christ and fall

35:14

underneath the Lordship of Christ because you've

35:16

denied His Lordship. Now,

35:19

I'm not talking about perfect living. I'm talking

35:21

about patterns of living. And

35:23

what Jesus describes here

35:25

is people who are in

35:27

the process of continually practicing

35:29

lawlessness. I'll tell you who,

35:31

you know, I'll give you an example of

35:35

some, a group of people that fit

35:37

this category. I don't even mention the name. It's

35:40

those churches and

35:42

groups that claim to be Christian, but are

35:45

gay affirming. In

35:47

other words, they hold a theology that

35:49

says that homosexuality is just fine. No

35:53

problem. Same-sex

35:55

weddings in our church, gay

35:58

pastors, etc. etc. There's

36:00

a whole movement

36:03

of this. Matthew

36:06

Vines is one of the leaders of the movement.

36:08

When you listen to Matthew and all the things

36:11

they have to say, basically they're saying, we're just

36:13

like you. We worship

36:15

the same way you do. We

36:18

believe the same things about Jesus,

36:20

etc. But we think you're wrong

36:22

in demonizing this

36:26

sexual behavior because God

36:28

doesn't demonize our style of

36:31

sexual behavior, our particular kind

36:33

of homosexuality the relationships we're

36:36

in. God's just fine with

36:38

that and they therefore practice

36:41

it. Now that is an

36:43

example of lawlessness. Here is

36:45

an individual and a whole group of people that

36:48

are championing lawlessness. Jesus

36:52

is saying essentially, why do you call me

36:54

Lord, Lord and you don't do the things

36:56

that I say? Because

36:59

Jesus in Matthew 19 makes it clear

37:02

that marriage is between one man and one

37:05

woman who become

37:07

one flesh for one lifetime and that's it.

37:09

That's the biblical standard, always.

37:12

That's where sex is

37:14

meant to be experienced in that kind

37:16

of relationship. They're

37:19

not doing what Jesus said. They're doing

37:21

the opposite. They are encouraging lawlessness and

37:24

there will be a time when Jesus

37:26

will say to those in that group,

37:28

depart from me. I never

37:30

knew you, you who

37:33

practice lawlessness.

37:37

Now that's just one example. There are other characterizations

37:40

of lawlessness that aren't necessarily sexual

37:42

but a lot of them are right now and

37:45

those are hard words. They're Jesus'

37:47

words but it doesn't

37:49

nullify salvation by grace. In fact even

37:51

in that 1 Corinthians 6 passage that

37:53

I mentioned and Paul was talking

37:55

about all these sins, some of them are sexual. He

37:58

goes on to say, such were some of

38:01

you, but

38:03

you have been washed, you have been cleansed. So

38:06

there is rescue from these things if

38:10

we take it. But if we

38:12

claim to be Christian and continue to live

38:14

like the rest of the world, if that's

38:16

the trajectory we're on, what

38:19

we are demonstrating is that we are not spiritual,

38:22

we are fleshly, we are

38:24

carnal, we are unregenerate. And

38:28

some of those details are in Romans chapter

38:30

8. So I think we

38:32

need to take Jesus' comments

38:34

here seriously, but

38:40

this isn't meant in any sense to

38:42

nullify the grace of God that is

38:44

available in Christ. Jesus is speaking very

38:47

strongly here about moral demands. He

38:50

does in the beginning chapter 5. That's

38:53

tough stuff. You can't get rid of the law. You

38:55

can't ignore the law. You can't keep the

38:57

law. Now what? Come

39:00

unto me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will

39:02

give you rest. This is that answer.

39:06

But even those who say they've come

39:09

unto Him and are still living profligate

39:11

lives, that's

39:15

who Jesus is warning about here. You

39:18

who practice lawlessness. All right.

39:21

Hope that helps. Landon,

39:24

let's take a break and we'll come back

39:26

to some more calls on standard reason. Friends,

39:29

if you like this broadcast, I know

39:31

you'll love hashtag STR Ask. It's our

39:34

shorter 20-minute podcast where I am paired

39:36

with the wonderful Amy Hall and together

39:38

we answer the questions you send us

39:41

on Twitter. Hashtag STR Ask

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is released twice a week, Mondays and

39:45

Thursdays, and it's only about 20 minutes

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long, so it's perfect to listen to

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on your morning jog or while driving

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around running errands or cleaning your garage

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or just playing low-fic at home. Amy

39:56

and I tackle your questions on theology

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and ethics and culture and lots more.

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social media platforms at the bottom of

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the homepage. Okay,

41:04

we have a

41:06

bunch of

41:08

more callers here

41:11

with open mic

41:13

calls. And

41:21

again, if you want to, the best

41:23

way to record your open mic call

41:25

according to Amy is to

41:27

go to our homepage and

41:30

the podcast section and under

41:32

live broadcast, you can follow

41:34

the prompts and then

41:36

record your question. So

41:39

here's one from Janine and

41:42

I'd like to hear, it's a question about

41:44

turning the other cheek. A lot

41:46

of people ask about this. Two

41:50

questions, that's it. The

42:00

reality is hop out of a of

42:02

i feel. There's buy a ticket to

42:04

one of your events would be one

42:07

month team could have ten so I

42:09

hesitate to do that but I might

42:11

interest you. Can you please the one

42:13

press adults who have never had the

42:15

opportunity to attend anything like that or

42:18

would you recommend and off hundred? Either

42:20

that or adults to become a question

42:22

from a fashion. My.

42:24

Second question is I have a

42:26

houses with the police officer and

42:28

he asked me for extra question.

42:31

In taking into consideration the Sermon

42:33

On the Mount Massive Five Thirty

42:35

Eight Thirty Nine where Jesus says

42:37

it's funny because it's she's. Hoping

42:40

to justify substitute. So.

42:43

Survival endorse the government to take as

42:45

you're supposed to sense for not an.

42:47

Individual if so. How does

42:49

that make sense? For

42:52

thank you for a vote for your ministry

42:54

things I look forward to hearing your efforts.

42:56

Take care of last. Say

42:58

it's you are Janine. I'm all

43:01

for show regarding your first question.

43:03

Ah, we have the reality conferences.

43:06

We do six of them a

43:08

year. It is our intentional effort

43:10

to pass the baton to the

43:13

next generation because the most important

43:15

generations always the next one. A

43:18

Rights and so we are targeting.

43:21

In. This conference middle school was

43:23

in high schoolers. Those. Are

43:25

the ones that we are set of

43:27

appealing to? Because. As

43:29

I mentioned, we want to pass

43:31

the baton to that generation, but

43:33

I always say. Even. Though

43:35

we're shooting for that, that means grandparents

43:37

and parents and youth leaders are going

43:40

to bring the kids. And it's principally.

43:42

The. Large majority are younger people.

43:45

We do not check I D's. Anyone.

43:48

Can come. In so

43:50

for us it's really and is There is

43:53

no distinction between an adult com for as.

43:56

a youth conference except for the

43:58

youth conference we were we

44:01

are keeping in mind that well

44:05

they should be a little bit more fun than

44:08

regular conferences that we would

44:10

participate in. We go

44:12

in our speakers for these different events but

44:14

the reality conferences, if you go on to

44:17

them you know what I'm talking about, they're

44:19

fun. There's lots of fun stuff there but

44:21

guess what? It's not just fun for the

44:23

young people, it's fun for the adults too.

44:26

Everybody's laughing at the

44:28

fun things that are happening when it's funny. So

44:32

there is no need for us to

44:34

produce an additional set

44:36

of conferences just for older folk,

44:40

grown-ups, because grown-ups

44:42

can come to this and

44:44

the young people come to it and since we're shooting

44:46

for the young people, if the young people can get

44:48

it, the grown-ups are probably going to get it too

44:51

but we don't dumb it down. We

44:53

don't dumb anything down. We

44:55

try to communicate as effectively

44:57

as possible with the talent that we have

45:00

and our talent is fabulous. Our

45:02

team talent from Stand to Reason, which

45:04

is always at these events and

45:07

also the others that come in to do

45:09

special breakout sessions

45:11

or even plenary sessions where everybody's

45:13

gathered at once. So

45:18

if you want to come to a reality

45:20

event and you're not

45:22

in high school, you

45:25

can still come. Like I

45:27

said, we don't check ideas. Now

45:29

to the other issue that you raised, Janine,

45:32

I think this passage in Matthew 5

45:35

that you mentioned, verse 38 and 39, where Jesus

45:38

says to turn the other cheek, is

45:41

frequently misunderstood, almost

45:43

universally misunderstood. This

45:49

is so familiar to me. Did we talk about

45:51

this on hashtag STRASK

45:53

Amy? We might have done that.

45:55

In any event, I'll just repeat

45:58

What I said there. What

46:01

Jesus says is if anyone

46:03

slaps you on the right

46:06

cheek, turn to him the

46:08

left. Know

46:10

what to think about that for moment.

46:13

Most people are right handed. How

46:16

do you if you're right handed and

46:18

you're facing somebody, How do you slap

46:20

them on the right side of their

46:22

face? While.

46:25

You slept there with the back your

46:27

hand as a backhanded swipe. All.

46:29

Right. If you slap them with your right

46:32

hand openhanded, you'd hit the left her side

46:34

of their face. And.

46:36

I think what this indicates

46:38

here is that Jesus is

46:41

talking about. I'm.

46:44

Individual. People. Taking.

46:47

Of. A To

46:49

taking the responsibility to punish others

46:52

who slight them. Okay,

46:55

And he in their passage he's talking

46:57

about the ancients of sad an eye

47:00

for an eye in a tooth for

47:02

tooth. Now this is became to be

47:04

kind of a ribbons kind of thing.

47:07

But actually, It's a principle

47:10

of justice is called all of the

47:12

Law of the Claw or Lex Telly

47:14

Owners. And the idea

47:16

of their injustices that the punishment.

47:19

Should. Fit the crime and we see

47:21

these language will or eye for an

47:24

eye to through a truth etc. Why?

47:26

for life. In the Mosaic

47:28

Law. And What? What?

47:30

The laws dictating the areas that you'd

47:33

use. Essentially you don't cut off or

47:35

person's hand cause they steal a loaf

47:37

of bread. You

47:39

eat, eat. Your punishment of a

47:41

crime should be commensurate with the

47:43

crime. but what happened is people

47:46

were taking this as justification for

47:48

personally vengeance. You did this to

47:50

me. I'm going to do a

47:52

back to you. Have

47:54

vigilante kind of thing. And

47:57

this is what Jesus is speaking against.

47:59

His. said if somebody slaps you on the right

48:01

side give to him the left.

48:04

In other words, don't resist a

48:06

person who is evil in that

48:08

fashion. Now

48:11

the scripture certainly authorizes

48:15

the government to

48:18

use its force to

48:20

punish evildoers. This

48:25

is throughout. This is what the whole

48:28

Hebrew scripture is about, that the Mosaic

48:30

law entails the notion, here's how the

48:32

local government, the nation of Israel deals

48:35

with these different crimes. There

48:37

is a means by which justice can be done,

48:40

but we are not to take

48:43

our individual vengeance on people. That's

48:45

what Jesus is

48:47

saying. I

48:52

think it's Paul that says that Caesar does not

48:54

bear the sword for nothing. God

48:58

has delegated to governments the

49:01

right to exercise justice. That's

49:04

the sword. But

49:06

it's not up to us to

49:08

do vigilante justice.

49:11

This is why the text is in a number

49:13

of places, do not return

49:16

evil for evil. That's

49:18

what Jesus is getting at. I just want to

49:20

make another observation about this. There

49:23

actually was a time when Jesus was slapped

49:25

in the face and when

49:27

he was slapped he did not turn the other

49:29

cheek. It

49:32

was at his trial. Now this is

49:34

nullify his point. I'm just simply making

49:37

the point that there are different circumstances

49:39

that you face and Jesus was facing

49:41

a different circumstance. In his

49:43

trial he was struck by

49:46

one of the Jewish leadership and

49:49

he didn't turn the other cheek.

49:51

Instead he demanded

49:54

an explanation. He

49:56

said, if I did anything

49:59

wrong, bear witness to the

50:01

wrong. If not, then

50:03

why did you strike me?" In

50:05

other words, there was an accountability that Jesus

50:08

was exercising there. He

50:11

didn't turn the other cheek. So this

50:13

isn't the passage that is kind

50:16

of requiring pacifism

50:22

or something like that. There

50:24

is a way to adjudicate issues of

50:27

law and punish evil doers and that's

50:29

through the government. And

50:32

if we are being assaulted,

50:35

we can defend ourselves. I

50:38

see no problem with that,

50:40

even with this passage. That's

50:42

an assault. If we're

50:45

being insulted, this

50:47

is when we back off. By

50:50

the way, there

50:53

are all kinds of circumstances that we find

50:55

ourselves in. In

50:57

daily interactions with other people, where

51:00

somebody else, one

51:03

way or another, insults

51:05

us or disses

51:08

us or takes illicit

51:10

advantage over us, and

51:13

what Jesus is saying here and

51:15

in other ways, in other passages

51:18

that's stated the same way

51:20

essentially, is you don't return

51:23

evil for evil. You

51:26

find a way to back out. You

51:29

bow out. This

51:32

is a very powerful principle

51:34

in relationships, especially family relationships,

51:37

where there's, in a sense,

51:39

verbal blow follows verbal blow. Sometimes

51:43

it's just better to let it go. I'm

51:49

trying to think of the Proverbs, Proverbs

51:52

chapter 19. It is a man's let's

51:56

see. I

51:59

can't remember. exactly how it goes, but it's like

52:01

a man's honor to overlook a manor. It's

52:04

his glory to overlook a manor, to

52:06

be short-tempered, to be, not

52:09

short-tempered, but the opposite, to

52:13

not respond negatively to these

52:15

circumstances. Oh, I'm bugged. Now

52:17

I've got to go to Proverbs 19 because I've

52:20

already butchered it, and I want

52:22

to find it. I have a different Bible than I

52:24

usually have because I... Okay,

52:28

that's the second half,

52:30

right? Okay, a

52:32

person's wisdom yields patience. That's a different

52:35

translation than I have. What's the verse?

52:38

A man's discretion, 1911,

52:40

thank you. A man's discretion makes

52:42

him slow to anger. Man's

52:45

discretion makes him slow to anger,

52:48

and it is his

52:50

glory to overlook a transgression.

52:54

Now, I remember reading

52:56

this verse to my eldest daughter a number

52:58

of years ago when she was having conflicts

53:00

with her sister, and

53:02

the point here is, and this is very powerful, it just

53:05

has been powerful in my own life.

53:08

Let me just put it that way.

53:10

I love Proverbs, and Proverbs has very

53:12

practical things to say to us about

53:14

relationships, interacting with other people. There

53:18

are some times when you just let it

53:20

slide. In

53:22

fact, it's a good thing to let it

53:24

slide. The text

53:27

says it's a man's glory to

53:30

overlook a transgression, and

53:33

I can think of times when I have been in a

53:36

fuss with someone, and I thought I had

53:38

clearly been

53:41

wronged. On

53:43

the merits, it would have been appropriate for

53:45

me to push back, and I'm not saying

53:47

it's never appropriate to push back, but lots

53:50

of times though, it's

53:52

probably better just to let it slide.

53:54

A harsh

53:57

word stirs up anger.

54:00

but a gentle answer turns

54:02

away wrath. Right?

54:04

So this is also in

54:06

Proverbs. And when I

54:08

began to internalize this notion, it was

54:12

almost as if God were

54:15

saying to me, when I faced this

54:17

circumstance and I felt faulted

54:20

or wronged in an

54:22

unjust way, and I might

54:24

have lashed back, it's

54:26

almost as if God were saying to me,

54:29

it's all right, Greg, just let

54:31

it go. It's okay. In

54:33

fact, it's good. It is a

54:36

glory to overlook

54:39

a transgression. Now,

54:41

that's not always easy to do. I get

54:43

it. And in

54:46

some circumstances, it's very

54:48

hard. But this

54:50

is one of those circumstances in which I

54:53

think practice does make perfect. The

54:56

more that you practice overlooking

54:58

transgressions, especially slights, things that

55:01

are not big deals, the

55:05

more easy it becomes. And

55:07

it's also, it was for me, and

55:10

is for me easier when I realized from

55:13

God's perspective, I'm doing something noble

55:18

and good. All right? In

55:20

God's perspective, I'm doing the right

55:22

thing by overlooking the

55:27

thing that happens to me that I should

55:31

just let it ride. I can hear it in

55:33

my own headset. I don't know how that's happening.

55:36

Amy's your chuckling. Am I that funny? So

55:40

anyway, I have, there's a lot

55:42

of proverbs that I have, at

55:45

least in principle, committed

55:48

to memory. I

55:51

can't always quote them perfectly, but they've

55:53

been so helpful to me. Here's

55:55

another one I'm seeing right on the page here. The

55:58

words of a whisperer. are

56:01

like Danny morsels and they

56:03

go down into the innermost parts of

56:05

the body. What's he talking about? Well

56:08

here's what I think he's talking about and it makes a lot

56:10

of sense. Did you

56:12

ever have somebody like tell you something

56:14

bad about another person that you didn't

56:16

know? Hey you know that guy over there? Here's

56:19

something you don't know. Boom boom boom.

56:21

Nasties right? Guess what

56:23

you think of next time you see that person?

56:26

You think of the nasties. You think of

56:28

the unpleasant things. You think about the bad

56:31

things that they said. You see the words

56:33

of that whisperer like a

56:35

dainty morsel just went right down inside

56:37

of the innermost part of your body.

56:39

You just swallowed that and

56:42

now every time you see that person

56:45

this pops up and you hit oh yeah I

56:48

know this about them. That's why it's not a

56:50

good idea to tell people about stuff like that

56:53

called gossip. All right?

56:55

It just goes down and changes

56:57

people's thinking. You want to guard your

57:00

lips. It's just

57:02

another principle of proverbs. Anyway that's

57:04

a good note to end on. Guard

57:07

your lips. Be

57:10

careful. Don't be

57:12

a whisperer and let more

57:15

things slide because it's to

57:17

your glory to do

57:20

that. To overlook a matter. Greg

57:22

Coeckel here at Stand to Reason. Give them heaven friends.

57:24

Tell I know. Thank

57:28

you. you