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slash enterprise. So for today's

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show, my friend, Craig Raw of SparrowWallet

2:45

rejoins me on the show. We chat a little bit

2:47

about Multisignature, security,

2:49

and privacy as well as Bitcoin

2:51

developments in the

2:52

space. Craig, welcome back to

2:54

the show.

2:55

Great, Stephan. It's it's really good to be

2:57

back. Yeah. There's been so many updates

2:59

going on with Spiro Wallet, and I thought it'd

3:01

be great to have you back to chat about

3:03

the space, whether it's multi signature or

3:06

privacy or import and export

3:08

of transactions. I think there's lots of things to

3:10

add. So, yeah, I'm just curious

3:12

as you look at the space now, what

3:14

are some of the big things on your

3:17

mind just kind of more

3:18

broadly. Well, I think, you know,

3:20

the last month has been pretty much consumed

3:23

from certainly from my point

3:25

of view with all of the sort of

3:27

ordinal stuff -- Right. -- particularly, I

3:30

don't think it's a mass of really

3:32

impact on Bitcoin itself, to be honest,

3:35

apart from the fee rate being

3:37

a little bit higher. But for myself, personally,

3:39

Sparrow has being recommended

3:42

as the sort of go to wallet for many

3:45

of the ordinals users. So it certainly

3:47

changed my world a little

3:48

bit. But that said, you know,

3:50

it is what it is. And, yeah,

3:52

we go on. Yeah. Right. And

3:54

as I understand, that's because well,

3:56

probably because Firstly, Spiro is easy

3:59

to use, but also I think it it might be the ease

4:01

of being able to freeze a particular UTXO,

4:03

which is useful for the ordinals

4:06

people where they if they've got a rare

4:08

satoshi or an inscription tied

4:10

to a particular

4:11

sat. I presume from their point of view that's

4:13

why Sparrow is being recommended for them.

4:16

Yeah. I think that that's definitely part of

4:18

it. I think also just the ease of being able

4:20

to create a taproot wallet is I think a

4:22

big part of it. That's the required

4:24

wallet to be able to to use it.

4:26

So I think that it was just sort of

4:28

a ease of use thing and became an early

4:31

recommendation for that

4:32

reason. Yeah. I see. I see.

4:34

Well, I mean, it's it's a cool thing for you. Obviously,

4:36

seeing your product be used

4:39

by more more and more people. Like, I guess,

4:41

you know, it's kind of like, you know, if you look

4:43

at Joe Hogan or things like people,

4:45

they might have multiple audiences. Right? Like, he

4:47

might have the people who follow him for comedy than people

4:50

who are into MMA and all the other stuff

4:52

or general. So maybe for yourself, it's like

4:54

Sparrow is there for people who are, let's say,

4:56

Multisignature and then you've got privacy

4:59

people who wanna use the coin joint

5:00

feature, and now you've got the ordinal prescription

5:03

people. Yeah. I I think

5:05

that you know, I certainly have no

5:07

issue with people using Sparrow for these

5:09

different use cases. I will say that ordinals

5:11

is not particularly my interest in the world.

5:14

And I don't intend to be building

5:16

Sperry along those lines. And I'm seeing

5:18

a number of other new wallets

5:21

coming to the fore now who are going to try and cater

5:23

towards that. And that's great. You know, people should

5:25

build stuff and they should use the

5:27

stuff that caters towards the

5:29

particular use case that they're trying to

5:31

address. But Sparo remains

5:34

very much, you know, focused on

5:36

financial self sovereignty. It

5:38

remains focused on, you know, making

5:41

your making it easy to self cast

5:43

of your funds and keep your

5:46

funds private as you spend. So

5:48

that's going to remain what Sparo

5:51

does. And if people want to use it for

5:53

other things, that's great as well. Excellent.

5:55

And so I think the other cool thing with Sparo

5:57

is that you can really start

5:59

basic and then work your way up. Right? And I think

6:01

that's a really interesting and important thing for people

6:04

out there when you're getting started.

6:06

think it can be very overwhelming. And

6:09

I've seen this even with listeners

6:11

or followers who DM me at times and I'm

6:13

I'm sort of coaching them through saying, okay,

6:15

take this step now. Take this step. And I

6:17

think that's useful thing. So

6:19

I'm curious how you're seeing

6:21

that journey for a new bitcoin or

6:24

let's say the person who is just learning

6:26

about self

6:27

custody, can you talk through a little bit of

6:29

maybe any insights you're seeing in

6:32

users of Sparrow who are going on that

6:34

journey? Sure. So, you

6:36

know, it's it's actually quite

6:38

interesting having the ordinals users

6:40

come in because they really don't read

6:42

anything at all that looks like they've literally

6:44

spent five minutes, you know, on

6:46

the entire thing and then, you know, committed

6:48

money to it, which which is quite a remarkable

6:51

thing actually. It's quite different from your

6:53

average Bitcoin user who generally

6:55

spends quite a bit more more time

6:58

thinking about things before they they

7:00

kind of make the first plunge even

7:03

with much less funds at

7:05

stake. So I think that that's been quite an interesting

7:08

thing. But certainly, it's

7:10

been okay to see how Sparrow

7:13

has handled that. You know, it it hasn't,

7:16

you know, always been straightforward. I

7:18

mean, you know, there's a little toggle at

7:20

the bottom of the sparrow status bar

7:22

where you can connect and just disconnect

7:24

from whatever server you are configured

7:27

for. And, you know, there's a

7:29

three screen dialogue when

7:31

you first install store it, which kind of

7:33

explains what this thing does. And

7:36

that is not even being read or or

7:38

seen by some. So I mean,

7:40

you know, there is sort of a level to

7:43

which you actually can't really

7:45

improve things. You can only you

7:47

know, guide people to a certain extent.

7:50

And then you need to rely

7:52

on them kind of reading some degree

7:54

of documentation or the

7:56

help presented by the application.

7:59

So III think from from that point of

8:01

view, the sort of most basic point of view, I'm reasonably

8:03

happy with things things are. From

8:05

the more advanced point of view, you know,

8:08

a lot of the last year has been spent building

8:10

out the the more advanced use

8:12

cases. And that continues to be the case,

8:14

you know, just trying to make sure that

8:16

people trying to do various, I would

8:19

say, less common, but nevertheless

8:22

valid use cases are catered

8:24

for. You know, just trying to fill in

8:26

all the sort of gaps one

8:29

of them the the the most recent ones

8:31

that I've actually been working on this this

8:33

week is being able to do remote

8:35

Multisignature ups. So

8:38

when you're not in the same room, you can

8:40

still set up a Multisignature there are

8:42

formats that cater towards

8:44

that. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that.

8:46

So I guess, you know, users who are just

8:48

getting started, you might start with a single signature

8:50

wallet. Maybe you'd, you know, you just start

8:52

with that with no pass phrase and just basic,

8:55

and then maybe some uses are deciding, okay,

8:57

I'm gonna go single signature with a pass phrase. And

8:59

of course, I think the more advanced level

9:01

is to get to Now I'm a big fan

9:03

of multi signature. I, you know, I use multi signature

9:05

myself. And so

9:07

there can be some practical difficulties

9:10

or things you have to learn to deal with when you're in

9:12

a Multisignature context. And as an example,

9:15

that may mean you have some

9:17

hardware device in

9:19

a different location. And if you're

9:22

going to, let's say, a vault and maybe

9:24

the key you're trying to do QR

9:25

scanning, these are some of the practical

9:28

difficulties, I guess. So can you talk to us

9:30

little bit about what that looks like if

9:32

you're doing a sparrow and you've

9:34

got keys in different locations? Yeah.

9:36

Sure. So, I mean, look, that's generally not

9:38

too hard. You know, I think, you know,

9:41

you might need to if it's a QR code, you'll obviously

9:43

need to take a laptop in Sparrow's

9:46

case to be able to scan

9:48

from that device. In terms

9:50

of some of the other ways you can

9:52

do it, for instance, if you have a cold card and

9:54

using it in air gap fashion, you

9:56

can walk in without anything really

9:59

just a sort of SD The

10:01

micro SD card. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. And

10:03

then just sign with that. So there are a few

10:05

different options, and I think it's quite interesting

10:07

to be able to consider which

10:09

ones might be better. But mean, they're not

10:11

really impactful. I don't think if you have

10:14

a safe custody location

10:16

walking in with your laptop

10:19

is necessarily a

10:21

difficult thing to do. I think the

10:24

the the most key thing around multi seg and

10:26

this is nothing new, is that

10:28

apart from the backups of the seeds

10:30

of all the individual devices

10:32

or at least a quorum of them. So

10:35

two of the three, if you're in a two or

10:37

three, You also need a

10:39

description of the wallet. You need

10:41

to have all of the public keys,

10:43

and this is because you need to be able to recreate

10:46

the spending script whenever

10:48

you want to spend, and that contains

10:51

the public keys to

10:53

that address. And that means

10:55

basically that you need to do this

10:57

in one of two ways, either create

10:59

backups of your wallet file. So

11:01

in this case, your spare a wallet file

11:03

or you need to have the output descriptor,

11:06

which is something that Spiro now

11:08

presents to the user when they

11:11

first create their Multisignature. So

11:13

there's a dialogue that pops up

11:15

and it shows you the sort of long string.

11:18

And then the idea is you can either print this

11:20

out as a PDF, you can

11:22

write it down, whatever means you feel

11:24

is most secure and caters towards whatever

11:26

you need. And then if you need to restore

11:28

your wallet, you can basically just plug

11:30

that in and your entire wallet will

11:33

then pop up. All of the phones will then come

11:34

in. So long as you still have a quorum of

11:37

the devices, you'll be able to sign and

11:39

send. Right. And so, yeah,

11:41

as you mentioned, this output

11:43

descriptor, this wallet back

11:45

up, it's a crucial step, and it's important to

11:47

have multiple copies of that.

11:49

Of course, there is a privacy consideration with

11:52

where and how you save that.

11:54

For example, if you keep getting the cloud, you might

11:56

want to encrypt that first if you are having

11:58

it maybe on some USB sticks along

12:01

with your devices, maybe you wanna be careful

12:03

which places you keep that because obviously

12:05

there's privacy ramification. But

12:07

it's also important from a redundancy point of view

12:09

to have it so that you don't lose access

12:12

to your clients, of course. So what

12:14

are some of the, I guess, other

12:17

practical aspects of offline

12:20

signing in a context. I

12:22

I know, for example, QR signing

12:24

can be a little difficult. Depending on

12:26

the lighting in the room, the devices that

12:28

we are using. Are you seeing any

12:31

innovation or developments on that

12:33

front? Yes, I mean, I think the

12:35

most interesting one recently

12:37

in terms of the QR stuff is

12:40

the launch of the new –

12:42

well, the upcoming launch, I should say, of

12:44

the new coin cut,

12:46

the Q1. Yes. Q1, yes.

12:49

Which I think is going to be interesting,

12:52

still uncertain exactly

12:54

what format that's going to use. Most

12:57

devices in the industry now

12:59

use a format called UR, which

13:02

is sort of a compact format

13:04

that we use to send data back

13:06

and forth. So we'll just have to see

13:08

how that goes. In terms of

13:11

devices being able to scan.

13:14

Yes. There are definitely times where

13:16

it is easier. I've heard one trick is

13:18

actually to, you know, hold up a

13:20

sheet of white paper behind the device.

13:23

don't know how much mileage you

13:25

might get out of that, but that is

13:27

certainly something that I've held The

13:29

reality is that some devices and here

13:31

are all mentioned the jade are just their

13:34

their screens are just very small, and

13:36

it's always going to be difficult for

13:38

a laptop camera, which is usually

13:40

not as proficient as a

13:42

phone camera to be able to scan such

13:44

a small screen. So there

13:47

are some devices which are better

13:49

than others. And, you know,

13:51

devices like the passport have

13:53

really been designed for it. You know, that's that's

13:55

their kind of primary means. So with

13:57

those kind of divide buses, particularly

14:00

if you're using the sort of newer, the sort

14:02

of version two, it's

14:04

much, much, much better. So, you know, it really,

14:06

I think, depends to some extent on device

14:08

that you

14:08

use. The seed sign are also generally

14:11

tends to be pretty good. You don't really have any issues

14:13

there. Yeah. I see. And as I

14:15

understand, there's also some

14:17

development and discussion around changing the

14:19

density of that QR code. So

14:22

I presume that instead means

14:24

if you have it as a lower density QR,

14:26

it just needs to do more different

14:29

QRs in a in a gif format

14:31

or something similar to

14:32

that. So that's also something we've

14:34

seen as well. Right? Yeah. I mean, that's

14:37

that's right. You know, it's basically the

14:39

way that these animated q r's work

14:41

is that you have this sequence of

14:43

QRs and you can

14:46

pick up a stream of them and

14:48

then the application can

14:50

then figure out from that stream,

14:52

you know, all of the information that it needs.

14:54

And if you decrease the density,

14:57

you're gonna have a longer stream. In other words,

14:59

you're gonna have to scan for more more time that

15:01

you will have you will need less resolution

15:04

in the actual scan in every image

15:06

that that you scan because the actual

15:08

blocks in the QR code will of course

15:10

be bigger. So it's it's sort

15:12

of trading off the speed of being able

15:15

to scan versus

15:16

the, really, the ability to

15:19

recognize the QR codes. And

15:21

one other thing I've seen is

15:23

general ongoing debates in the community

15:26

online discussion, people saying, Anna,

15:28

don't push people into It's too complicated.

15:30

A lot of people going to shoot themselves in the fort.

15:32

Just do a single signature wallet with a pass

15:35

phrase. And then there are others who

15:37

are in the more pro Multisignature camp

15:39

where they're saying no, actually it's a big improvement

15:41

in your security. It's worth it. You

15:43

just have to remember, okay, keep it simple.

15:46

Don't do anything too complex. I'm

15:48

curious if you have any view on that. Do you see

15:50

that as is a

15:52

real necessity above a certain

15:55

value, a certain number of

15:57

coins, or how are you

16:00

how would you advise somebody to whether they

16:02

are deciding on just single signature with

16:04

a passphrase versus actually take the

16:05

time, learn to do Multisignature.

16:08

So I think that first

16:10

of all, let me talk about the pass

16:12

phrase. I think the pass phrase, I

16:15

would still consider an advanced feature

16:18

The reason I say that is

16:20

because the pass phrase is something

16:23

you bring. So looking

16:25

at the security paradigm of something

16:27

that I own, plus something that I bring

16:30

is, you know, generally a good

16:32

way of seeing things. And the pass phrase,

16:34

of course, is something that as human beings, we

16:36

need to recall and enter in.

16:38

Now we may have made a record of it.

16:41

But really, you know, if you've just

16:43

written it down underneath your seed words, you

16:45

haven't really achieved anything because your

16:47

seed words are already enough to

16:49

create a seed

16:52

with enough entropy in it. So

16:54

it's really some something that you at least meant

16:56

to store in a different case if you do store

16:58

store it. But otherwise, you need

17:00

to really recall it in your head. And of course,

17:02

as human beings, we have tendency

17:04

to forget, get things or enter

17:06

them in wrong. And that's really

17:09

the reason behind a recent Sparrow feature,

17:11

which essentially does play is not only

17:13

the master fingerprint, but also little

17:15

image, which is unique to

17:17

that. And that kind of allows you as

17:19

you type your pass phrase in to

17:21

be able to see and kind of match

17:23

up in your in your mind both from a

17:26

a fingerprint recognition but also from

17:28

a visual cue whether

17:30

I've entered the right pass phrase. Because again,

17:33

if you forget whatever pass phrase

17:35

it is, you have lost

17:37

access to those friends. And I think that that's

17:39

a very real, you know, thing that

17:41

a lot of the people who use and recommend

17:43

the pass phrase, you know, that

17:46

that to many beginners seems like a

17:48

a Livera different

17:51

paradigm from the normal

17:53

one where you enter in a password. And if you

17:55

get it wrong, you get told that

17:57

you entered it wrong. Whereas with a pass

18:00

pass phrase, you enter it in, and whatever

18:02

passphrase, you enter creates a valid wallet. And

18:04

I think that that's a big difference that a lot of people

18:06

don't fully understand Right. It can

18:08

be confusing. Correct. Yeah. So so

18:11

that's the way that the standard is designed,

18:13

and that's the way that it works, you know. So

18:15

so we're all following it. But I think lot

18:17

of people don't fully understand it and

18:19

and and how that sort of impacts them.

18:22

For example, they will create a wallet

18:24

into their pass phrase, have a typo in

18:26

it, and then send funds to

18:28

that and then close the wallets. And then when they get

18:30

get back, they they don't obviously reenter

18:32

the typo, but then those funds that

18:34

they sent are gone. And that's a common thing that

18:37

you might see, and that's really what this this

18:39

kind of life hash, this little visual cue

18:41

is helpful for. So you should be checking

18:43

that every single time and saying yes,

18:46

that was a little sort of yellow with some gray

18:48

lines lines on it. That looks like the one

18:50

that I have. So that's, I think, you

18:52

know, just talking a little bit about past phrases,

18:54

getting to the thing. You

18:57

know, I would say you'll do multi sig

18:59

when you feel you need it.

19:01

And there's no feeling like

19:03

the security in my mind of

19:05

knowing you have a Multisignature you've

19:07

got multiple port devices

19:09

in different areas. And

19:12

you can deal with the fact that

19:14

one or more of them can be lost,

19:16

can be completely destroyed, and

19:18

you can still have access to your funds.

19:20

So you know, when do you get

19:22

to that point? I think it's when you

19:25

are worried about it when you are

19:27

lying awake at night thinking, you know,

19:29

I need to do better the value

19:31

of this to me. Whatever the amount is, the value

19:33

of this to me is high enough that

19:36

my cold card sitting in the in the

19:38

sort of cupboard or the safe plus the

19:40

passphrase in my head just doesn't feel

19:42

like a secure enough answer

19:45

for me, I need something a little bit better. And

19:48

that for me is when the sort of Multisignature

19:51

in. And it it is, I think,

19:53

easier. You know, there are people out there

19:55

who will say it's hard. And I think

19:57

that, you know, if you if you

19:59

don't do the the the correct

20:01

backup then you are getting yourself

20:03

into trouble, you know. But I think that it's as long

20:05

as you have, you know, backups of

20:07

the seed seed words for each device,

20:10

plus you have a backup as we were saying

20:12

of the output doctor or the Sparrow

20:15

Wallet file in different locations. And

20:17

you have a good obviously, a good password on

20:19

that file, then I think that it's actually

20:22

a relatively easy thing. You know? And certainly,

20:24

you know, it's not like they are

20:28

hidden pitfalls beyond

20:30

what we are talking about here that

20:32

I can say. Those

20:36

are the kind of key things to get right.

20:38

And if you have that right, I think you're

20:40

in a very good place because it allows you

20:42

to be relatively flexible with

20:44

where you store store things and how

20:46

you manage the entire

20:49

setup. I think it's a it's a good step forward.

20:51

Yeah. And I think there's a few things I wanna

20:53

dig into here, but I think one point that is

20:55

worthwhile pointing out is that multi signature

20:58

with different devices, device types,

21:00

also helps you versus what's known

21:02

as the chosen nonsattack. Whereas

21:05

many devices in a single signature context,

21:07

even with a passphrase, are not

21:09

safe particular not necessarily

21:12

safe against the chosen nons attack. Now,

21:14

I think it gets a bit complicated here because there

21:16

are some devices So for example, off

21:18

the top of my head, I believe BitBox o two

21:21

and the blockstream j'd have this

21:23

anti Xfil or anti Klepto.

21:25

Protocol, which is there to help you against that.

21:27

But there are all kinds of trade offs with

21:29

that too because that those devices you

21:32

get the anti Excel when you are using USB.

21:34

You don't get that when you're in QR code.

21:36

So think that's another reason

21:38

to think about multi signature as opposed

21:40

to just single signature in a passphrase because

21:43

it's possible that you without knowing

21:46

I mean, it's kind of theoretical risk,

21:48

but it, you know, it could be a thing

21:50

if, you know, the value bitcoin got big enough

21:52

and you were unknowingly

21:55

purchasing a wallet that had been compromised

21:57

by maybe somebody in the factory where

21:59

those wallets are made or those devices

22:01

are made. As an example, whereas

22:04

if you have multi signature with multiple device

22:06

types, now you're just so much more

22:08

protected against that. Right? So I think

22:10

that's an interesting point that people have to

22:12

just consider that path phrases can help

22:14

you against some types of

22:16

attacks, but they don't help you against everything. That

22:18

multicycle can help you against? Yeah. I mean,

22:20

I think that the chosen nonstop

22:23

attack, you know, the the best way

22:25

that I would, you know, protect

22:27

myself against that is with, you know,

22:29

upgrade your firmware to the most recent

22:31

version when you have your

22:33

new device. You know, that

22:35

way you can kind of do

22:38

at least some degree of it's

22:41

not sort of a perfect answer,

22:43

but I think it does certainly ensure that

22:46

at least you're doing that degree of check

22:48

because when you upgrade the firmware, the

22:51

device should have to check it. And

22:53

while that check you store, to

22:55

some extent, trusting the device to do it,

22:57

you at least can also check and you can check,

22:59

yes, the download that I have made

23:01

matches the fingerprint on the site. So

23:04

that I think is a good sort of approach.

23:06

In terms of all of the

23:08

devices now, they should be creating

23:11

the same signatures as

23:13

Bitcoin core or ASPARO.

23:16

So there's a sort of RFC

23:19

which details how you choose

23:21

the non a specific approach, and

23:23

everyone should be following that approach.

23:25

And if you follow that approach, then

23:28

the actual signature bytes are the same.

23:30

And I've kind of gone through a

23:32

process with many of the vendors

23:34

to make sure that they

23:36

are actually doing this. So we

23:39

Multisignature, which are not only

23:41

looking the same, but also of the

23:43

smallest size, which is obviously important

23:45

if we want to keep our fees low.

23:48

So there's, as I say, a

23:51

sort of approach, which allows us to then choose

23:53

the nonsense. And if it ends up with a larger

23:55

Cigna signature size, because the nonsense is

23:57

just a random thing, then you

23:59

can then go on and choose the next notes. Right?

24:02

And then that allows you to then see, okay,

24:04

the signature that I now get out is

24:06

smaller than the one that I got before, and

24:09

therefore, I'm gonna use that one. So

24:11

that's is called grinding for

24:13

low r. It's kind of a technical

24:15

thing, but the

24:17

upshot of all of this is that if all of these

24:19

devices are literally creating the same bytes,

24:21

then obviously we can say that

24:24

unless everything is compromised,

24:28

we can be reasonably sure that we are

24:30

not leaking additional information in that

24:32

segment. One other area that I think

24:34

would be great if you could help clear up. I

24:36

commonly run into this and often explain this

24:38

for people, but it will be great to hear you explain

24:40

it for people as well. So If you could explain

24:42

the difference between these concepts. Right? So I'm

24:44

just gonna listen out. So we have your

24:47

seed. You know, like, you can think of it

24:49

like your twelve or twenty four words are a representation

24:51

of that. You have the pass phrase. You

24:54

might have a pin on the device. And

24:56

then fourthly, you might have a sparrow password.

24:58

So could you just help explain the difference between

25:00

those four concepts just for listeners

25:03

who are little bit newer or using this

25:05

opportunity to

25:05

learn? Sure. So I I think one

25:07

can think of the Sparrow wallet password

25:10

and the PIN on the device is very much

25:12

the same kind of kind of thing. They control

25:14

access to the device or to your

25:16

Sparrow wallet. They are

25:18

basically just a gatekeeper in

25:21

front of things, which allow you. They

25:23

don't change in any way what's

25:25

going on inside the wallet or inside

25:28

the device, they just allow you to access

25:30

it at all. Otherwise, you're sump

25:32

dead. You can't get in. Then in

25:34

terms of the past phrase, that's

25:36

actually like an additional word

25:38

added on to the end of your seed words.

25:41

And that changes your entire seed.

25:43

So that's why when we were saying earlier,

25:45

it creates a completely different

25:47

and valid wallet that's, you

25:49

know, the effect of the pass phrase

25:52

is really to be able

25:54

to add this this additional thing

25:56

which creates wallet that only

25:59

you kind of know about. And

26:01

the big advantage of that is

26:04

that you are then able to ensure

26:06

that even should your Sparrow wallet

26:08

password be found or

26:11

indeed your device PIN that

26:13

pass phrase Livera the fact that it's

26:16

a different thing. Somebody would have

26:18

to enter in a pass pass phrase

26:20

and then go and check the blockchain. To

26:22

see whether there are any funds for that

26:24

particular wallet that they have not created.

26:26

And if they don't, then they're gonna have to go and

26:28

try the next one. And and that's a very

26:30

much slower process than trying

26:33

to guess, for example, your spirit

26:35

wallet password. Now even that is

26:37

slow because Sparo uses a

26:40

relatively slow key derivation algorithm

26:44

by choice in order to make it more difficult

26:47

to attack. But the pass phrase

26:49

thing is you're going to

26:51

a blockchain which is a very large data database

26:53

and you're trying to look things things up and you

26:55

can imagine that's never going to be

26:57

very, very quick. So we're just trying to put

26:59

things in which not only

27:01

hide the wallet, but also make it much more

27:03

difficult to brute force. Back to

27:06

the show in a moment. When it comes to securing

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Use code Lavera for discount there, and now

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back to the show. I see. Yeah. And I

29:12

think it's an important thing just for people to understand

29:14

the reference to understand those four

29:17

concepts because if you misapply

29:19

that, you can get things wrong. And if you

29:21

if you confuse things. So for example, if if

29:23

a listener is out there, maybe they're little bit newer,

29:26

and they confuse the passphrase with, say, the Sparrow

29:28

application level password, they're totally

29:30

different things. And it will show you

29:32

literally a different wallet

29:34

and different addresses. And of course, this is

29:37

partly what the Livera which is

29:39

a new feature you mentioned, that's helping guess

29:41

that's there to help them decide or determine,

29:43

am I looking at the correct wallet? But

29:46

it's just useful to have a conceptual awareness

29:48

of these concepts so that way we can

29:51

be more secure and make the

29:53

right choices when we are deciding how to

29:55

secure our coins and all of

29:56

this. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.

29:59

You know, it's it's I think the

30:01

adding that life, life hash thing was

30:04

for me, you know, they're just trying to avoid

30:06

the support requests that come in when

30:08

people have had a typo or,

30:11

you know, that's, I think, the

30:13

the key key thing. So I'm gonna keep on

30:15

trying to work at that, hopefully,

30:17

we'll eventually get to point where

30:20

people are thinking about the passphrase that

30:22

they enter rather than just you

30:23

know, going for it. Yeah. And let's chat

30:25

little bit about NFC support. I know this

30:27

is something that is available

30:29

in the top signer. It's available in the

30:31

MK4. Some other devices are out there.

30:34

I know this is something you have also added

30:36

support relatively recently as

30:38

well. What's that what's that been like? And Are

30:40

people using it a lot or not really?

30:42

You know, I I was really unsure

30:44

of how much use it would get, and

30:47

I've only had few weeks now at to

30:49

judge it. But I I it's certainly being

30:51

used. I'm certainly getting queries

30:53

and people are talking

30:55

about it. So, you know,

30:57

it's it's I would say that it's got more

31:00

use in last few weeks than I thought it would,

31:02

which I think talks to the success of

31:04

the product itself. And I think, you know,

31:07

you kind of have to ask at the price point

31:09

of buying a card reader, which is required

31:11

in a desktop setting because, you know, generally,

31:14

your computer doesn't have a card reader in it.

31:16

Plus the the card card itself,

31:18

you know, you're kind of for one card,

31:20

you're kind of already looking at what for

31:22

example, a cold card would cost.

31:25

So you got to go to ask

31:27

why would you do it. And my answer

31:29

to that is that there are

31:31

setups, for example, Multisignature setups,

31:34

but also, I think one that's interesting

31:36

is, say you have, you know,

31:39

a a few kids and you want to introduce

31:41

them to the Bitcoin world and how to

31:43

self custody getting

31:45

them all to buy, you know, buying them all a seed

31:48

sorry, sorry, a cold card. Might be

31:50

quite an expensive thing, and there's lot of

31:52

complexity in using it. But

31:55

the TAP signer is just a single

31:57

card and put it on the reed reader

31:59

and enter in a short pin. And then you

32:01

have full use of it to import,

32:04

to sign all of those kind of

32:06

things. And for me, that's a nice way to

32:08

be able to get people in. Just from

32:10

my own point of view, it's it's sort of quickly

32:13

risen to be a common

32:15

way that I will test things if I'm

32:17

testing, for example, a Multisignature, what

32:19

have you I will generally tend to use

32:21

that just because it's so easy to use. You're

32:23

not trying to enter a pin and then

32:26

get this thing to work or do some kind of an

32:28

egg sort of egg yolk thing.

32:30

You know, you just have a very easy system.

32:33

So it's kind of ease of use is

32:34

high. And I would say that

32:36

when once you've started buying more than one,

32:39

the price point really does start to make more

32:41

sense. I see. Yeah. And it could make sense.

32:43

Maybe in a business

32:44

context, like, let's say, a bunch of people

32:46

have, you know, these top signers, and maybe it's like

32:48

a multi gig. So it's not just a single signature

32:51

wallet, but maybe few people, like, let's

32:53

say, five people get together and have a three or

32:55

five, and each of them has a top signer or

32:57

whatever they've each got their own device.

32:59

Maybe it makes sense from that context for

33:02

the larger spending, let's say.

33:04

So it kind of remains to be seen what's

33:07

gonna be the main use there. But certainly,

33:09

it is easy. Like, it's very quick to move

33:11

that information back and forth with NFC rather

33:14

than doing it all with, you know, Gold

33:16

Guard and, you know, these little SD cards

33:18

in and out all the time, but still

33:21

a useful feature. So let's see what happens

33:23

there. In terms of, I guess,

33:25

multi sig adoption, do you see

33:27

that there's much I guess just broadly

33:30

looking at the user experience for Multisignature,

33:32

I mean, I think most people can agree. It's a massive

33:34

security improvement. It's probably an improvement

33:37

in redundancy so long as you've done it correctly.

33:40

Do you foresee more people

33:42

using in terms of the average

33:45

just Bitcoin or, like, just see, you know, just

33:47

an average guy who's got a Bitcoin stack,

33:49

let's say, over the years as the cycles go

33:51

on. Do you see that as main streaming

33:53

and normalizing? Or do you see them sort

33:55

of staying in single

33:57

signature? Do you have any predictions? That's

33:59

a hard hard one to predict.

34:01

You know, I think that's without wanting

34:03

to get too deeply into it because

34:05

it's an area which I still need to spend

34:07

some time on myself. I think that if we

34:10

see this upholtz or similar

34:12

proposal come in, then, you

34:14

know, that might really affect things

34:17

because that provides a

34:19

security model, which think is would

34:21

be very interesting to many. But I

34:23

do think, just zooming out,

34:26

I do think that there is a general

34:28

progression as more and

34:30

more people become comfortable with

34:32

how Bitcoin works, how self custody

34:35

works, how these different concepts like

34:37

output, the script doctors, how

34:40

they can be used, I think we are

34:42

gonna see Multisignature to

34:44

the fore, you know, It's really just

34:46

about getting people used to the ideas

34:48

of it. know, I think that

34:50

just a few years ago we had a

34:52

relatively difficult, you know, I remember trying

34:55

to set up a multisig using Electromwallets

34:58

back in the days before I built a sparrow

35:00

and it was difficult. It wasn't easy

35:03

for me. To do. So

35:05

things have now changed a lot. You know, we've got

35:08

a lot more more apps with a lot

35:10

easier import of being able

35:12

to import the the right way

35:14

and, you know, the right kind of formats

35:16

to get wallet going. And

35:19

I think that the fears that you sometimes

35:21

hear are generally maybe coming from

35:24

that sort of earlier era where

35:26

you had systems that we're really

35:28

just not well designed for it. You

35:30

know, for me, I I can't imagine

35:32

how it could be much easier

35:35

to set up a Multisignature

35:37

know, in the spirit right

35:39

now, it's really, really

35:41

not a difficult thing to do and I would encourage

35:43

anyone who thinks it

35:45

is just to try, you know, just give it

35:47

a go, you know, create a

35:50

bunch of seat phrases and

35:52

trying and sort of get it set to

35:54

start up and see how it goes

35:56

because it's really not a difficult thing.

35:59

I suspect we will see more of it

36:01

as a result. So yes, I think

36:03

multistage is

36:04

coming. Yeah, and I think op Vault

36:06

may change things a little bit, and it could

36:09

also be layered dot layered together. Right?

36:11

You could even have multi signature and

36:13

maybe depending on how things go, it may

36:15

be common to people for people to use

36:17

up vault in combination with multi signature.

36:19

So then it just makes it even harder that

36:21

let's say you have your two of

36:23

three or your three of five multi signature

36:26

and you've got an up vault recovery pathway

36:28

So then if that becomes

36:30

really mainstream and it's known

36:32

that any serious hodla is

36:35

using multi some combination of

36:37

multi signature and or op vault,

36:39

it might really reduce the overall

36:41

amount of theft in a way. Right? Like, as my friend

36:44

Michael Flaxman has mentioned, that

36:46

we we might be able to make it clear

36:48

that Multisignature is such a common

36:51

and easily used feature for anyone with

36:53

a with a lot of coin that it

36:55

actually helps prove out

36:57

this whole idea of Bitcoin as this

36:59

uncensurable or difficult to seize

37:02

money. And I that to me, that's just a really cool idea.

37:04

But of course, it remains to be seen where

37:06

op vol goes if it comes or not, but

37:09

I think it'd be a cool thing to see. So

37:11

that's kind of how I'm seeing it. Do you have any

37:14

other thoughts on OpVault?

37:16

Not hugely at this time apart from the

37:18

fact that I think it would be a very useful things

37:21

to add. I'm certainly not

37:24

saying we should add it fast or rush

37:26

it in. I think it requires a lot of due

37:28

care But I think that

37:30

the idea is certainly good and that's

37:32

the general view that I

37:35

have seen is that most people seem

37:37

to regard the sort of idea behind

37:39

it as good and they are, I

37:41

think, some positive views on

37:43

the way in which it's been implemented to

37:45

date. The other thing about MultiSeq

37:47

that I would like to just say is,

37:49

it is obviously, as you mentioned

37:52

earlier, when you have multiple individuals

37:54

involved, it is really useful

37:56

for that, particularly in a business

37:58

context. If a business

38:00

wants to store funds, The

38:02

immediate question is how do we do it?

38:05

And Multisignature the obvious answer

38:07

because it allows multiple employees

38:10

to then hold the keys and

38:12

not one of one of them can then run

38:14

off, and that kind of gives everyone a feeling

38:16

of we're doing the right right thing.

38:18

So as I was saying earlier, the

38:20

the next version of the Sparrow is gonna

38:22

have a standard in it. It's

38:24

called BSMS or

38:27

BIP 129. And that

38:29

is basically an important export

38:32

standard, which allows people

38:34

to share the different, you know,

38:36

key stores or or shards, if you will,

38:39

in their setup, the

38:42

different signers can then exchange

38:44

over whatever secure channels

38:47

they use. And then

38:49

they can one of one of them can then,

38:51

you know, take all of those different assigners,

38:54

compile them into a Multisignature And

38:56

then share the wallet

38:59

as another

38:59

file, also ABSMS file, and

39:01

then everyone else can import that. So it kind

39:03

of just gives you a mechanism

39:06

to be able to conduct this

39:08

remote Multisignature setup in an

39:10

easy way. Yeah. So just to be clear,

39:13

today, you could have the same

39:15

Sparrow wallet database

39:16

file, right, that dot m v dot m dot

39:19

d b file. Let's say you, me, and

39:21

a third person, We could share that database

39:23

file today and share, let's say, we

39:25

had a signal chat. Let's say, you, me,

39:27

and this third person had a signal chat, and we could

39:29

share our PSBC through that. And

39:32

one of us could just kind of do that coordination

39:34

role and do it that way. But I I presume

39:37

BSMS would be an easier way to do

39:39

that maybe across

39:40

wallets. Is that Is that the goal here? Or

39:42

what what's goal? Yeah. So, I mean,

39:44

it must be said that this first implementation,

39:47

you know, there's a lot lot to BSMS,

39:50

which really, you know,

39:52

to get the full benefits requires integration

39:55

with the hardware devices themselves. Because

39:57

the idea is that every single

40:00

signer signs their own information

40:02

before they send it out. And then

40:05

when the information is all

40:07

compiled and brought together,

40:09

it includes the first address of

40:11

the wallet. And then the idea here is that that

40:14

first address is then the the device

40:16

then goes and checks. Okay. A, I

40:18

am the signer in the column and

40:20

b, the first address of this wallet matches

40:23

the one that I think it should should should

40:25

be. Unfortunately, we're just not

40:27

there today in terms of vendor support.

40:30

It's it's one of those difficult things

40:32

where it requires a lot of people to kind of

40:34

work in concept to deliver a UX

40:36

experience. So this first implementation

40:39

that I have been working on is really just

40:41

the basics of being able to share the information

40:44

back and back and forth. And

40:46

for many people who don't necessarily

40:49

want to, you know, you can't, for example,

40:51

at this point, save a

40:54

invalid, wallet file in

40:56

the spirit spirit. It kind of prevents

40:58

you from doing that. So what

41:00

you should do is then everyone then imports

41:02

their own device in whatever that is,

41:05

whether it's a soft software wallet, hardware

41:07

wallet, whatever it is. And then they

41:09

export this BSNS file,

41:11

they share it, and then everyone can import

41:13

those. So it's just AAA

41:16

means at this at this early stage of

41:18

being able to share that information out. Otherwise,

41:20

you'd have to send around expos in the end,

41:22

you know, the sort of other details,

41:25

which is less of a of a convenience.

41:27

So I think it's really just

41:30

making it easier to do those remote Multisignature

41:32

setups. I see. Yeah. So I guess,

41:35

today, it's possible even now, but

41:37

it just requires a little more technical competence

41:39

and a little bit more manual jiggling

41:42

with the system, let's say, as opposed to

41:44

the hypothetical BSMS future

41:47

is, I

41:47

guess, one way to explain that. Right?

41:49

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, we the

41:52

the idea here is to kind of solve the

41:54

need of people who just want to set up a

41:57

remote Multisignature and kind

41:59

of make that particular task easier.

42:01

But in time, I hope that we'll see

42:03

vendor support as well, which

42:05

will just allow all the kind of verification angles

42:08

of it to come into

42:10

play. So it's a as

42:12

with most of these things, it's a road that

42:14

we walk walk on and, you know, we gradually

42:17

get to the end end

42:19

call. And so let's also chat

42:21

about your bp 329.

42:23

So this is related to the import and export

42:25

of transaction. So can you tell us a little bit

42:27

about that? How it came about and how

42:29

that's progressing?

42:31

Sure. So, you know, what we have,

42:33

if everyone's kind of heard of

42:35

of the common staff

42:38

standards around SEDWords, for example,

42:40

the thirty nine is what it's called. And

42:42

that kind of defines how those seed words

42:44

look and how how they work. And that allows us

42:46

to transfer our funds from

42:48

almost any wallet on the market two

42:50

at different wallets. And that's a really useful

42:53

thing. You know, being able to not be locked

42:55

into a particular wallet is an immensely

42:57

powerful thing that we all kind

42:59

of enjoy. Now what we

43:01

don't have is the ability to transfer the labels

43:03

in one wallet to a different one.

43:06

That is until the 329.

43:08

Came came about. So the idea

43:10

here is that you don't want to have

43:12

application lock in for any

43:14

data that sits within that particular

43:17

wallet. And what the 329

43:19

is, it allows you to export all of the labels

43:21

from your wallet. And then for

43:23

any supporting wallet, you can then import

43:26

that file and then essentially all

43:28

of your labels will then be brought across.

43:30

So it's a means to be able

43:32

to do that. And as as we know,

43:35

labels are really important because we

43:37

have this UTXO model,

43:39

which means that, you know, all of your

43:41

privacy is linked to whatever the

43:43

UTXO came from. So being able

43:45

to label it Livera us a hint of,

43:47

okay, while I spent this before, it

43:50

was a change I put from a transaction there.

43:52

So if I spend it to someone else, they're going

43:54

to be able to follow that back. And

43:57

it just allows us to be more arrive at

43:59

when we can label things and understand what

44:01

that trail looks like. So I think

44:03

labels are important. Labels should

44:05

be used and we shouldn't be locked into

44:07

any particular particular application. And

44:10

that's really what the sort of

44:12

import and export of them is

44:14

all

44:14

about. So, yeah, that could be handy for

44:16

people who need to

44:19

just keep records as well, like, of

44:21

what did I do? What was this? What does this transaction

44:23

relate to? And being able to easily

44:26

move that across wallets or export it

44:28

out into other applications even

44:30

just for assessment or accounting or

44:32

other purposes. Also wanted to chat about

44:34

the privacy aspect of it. I know there's been

44:36

a lot of discussion. It's ongoing discussion

44:38

about bit forty seven pain mams

44:41

or you know, just this idea of

44:43

having a payment channel, but it's

44:45

like an on chain payment. And so

44:48

I think there are some debates online

44:50

about whether that should be used or

44:52

adopted. We are seeing I

44:55

saw recently there are some news about a new wallet

44:57

called StackWallet who has it. So So

44:59

Samura while it has it first. Obviously, Samura

45:01

while it has it. There is some chatter about some

45:03

other wallets adding it, but at the same time,

45:05

there are there are people critiquing the idea.

45:07

So why is bit forty seven

45:09

important or good from your perspective just

45:12

for people to

45:13

understand? Sure. So, I mean, I think

45:15

the key thing that it gives

45:17

you is, how can I in

45:19

a non interactive way receive

45:22

payment from someone else? Right? And

45:24

when I say non interactive, I

45:26

mean, I'm not going to be talking to them.

45:28

I don't know who who they are, they're just gonna send

45:30

knee funds. And I don't have to speak

45:33

to them or do anything on my my

45:35

part. And there's a number of ways that you

45:37

can do that today. Number one, you can put

45:39

a Bitcoin address out there in

45:41

the world, still a very highly used approach.

45:44

It has the huge downside is

45:46

that the entire world can see

45:48

exactly how much money I have got

45:50

on that address. Right? That's completely

45:52

open. So that is a very big

45:54

disadvantage to that. And if

45:57

I want to spend those funds, everyone

45:59

can see that as well. So

46:02

that's generally not the best route. The

46:04

second kind of approach is to run

46:06

something like BTC Pay Server which

46:09

allows a new address to be sent. But

46:11

of course, that's that requires you

46:13

to run a server. And for many people

46:15

in the world, that is not an easy thing. You know,

46:17

you not have to set up a server

46:19

somewhere you have to keep it going, and then that server

46:21

can then generate new addresses as

46:23

required. So bit forty seven

46:26

is a different approach. If you can

46:28

say kind of a third approach, which allows you

46:30

to put up this thing called payment code. It's

46:32

a really long series of letters and numbers.

46:35

And any thirty seven compatible wallet

46:37

can take that payment code and can

46:40

then construct an address

46:42

which that payment code and only that

46:44

payment code can see. And

46:46

that's a really powerful thing.

46:48

It's kind of allowing people

46:50

to, you could create a banner, a

46:52

black on, for example, with payment code

46:54

on it and anybody could run the world can

46:57

send you money to that. And

46:59

if that's a powerful idea, I

47:01

think. You know, it's an idea that one can

47:03

have this static address that

47:05

anybody can send to and

47:07

that sending is then private. That's

47:10

generally the that's think the the key

47:12

kind of idea that that forty seven is trying

47:14

to solve. Now we have a number of

47:16

other competing approaches, which

47:18

have come about in the last sort of year or

47:21

so We've got silent payments, and

47:23

then another one called, I think it's

47:25

the 351 private payments.

47:28

And that one, Both of those are

47:30

doing the same thing as what the forty seven

47:32

is. They try to improve on it in

47:34

certain ways, which we can get into. But

47:37

I think the forty seven, ultimately for

47:39

me, is still the key one because

47:41

it has this ability to be used and

47:43

integrated with all wallet. Where as some of

47:45

the others require full nodes,

47:48

which is not some something. Again,

47:50

you know, if you can run a full node, maybe

47:52

you can run a server anyway, in

47:54

which case you might as well be using

47:56

BTC based servers. So for me, it's

47:58

it's it's really, you know,

48:01

I haven't seen anything that

48:03

rivals the forty seven. And it's not a

48:05

perfect spec.

48:07

I I would say that it has downsides

48:10

for sure. But I think that

48:12

the utility that it has is

48:14

really unmatched, being able to

48:16

run a lot wallet client and

48:19

receive funds from a static address

48:21

anywhere in the

48:22

world, I think, is quite a unique

48:24

feature. Right. And so as you were

48:26

saying, I think that's probably the key

48:28

point that pit forty seven solves all

48:30

that some of the other approaches may not.

48:33

And so in practice,

48:35

I think it's more likely that bit forty seven

48:38

is going to stay at least for the

48:40

users who are focused on on train.

48:42

Perhaps in the future, if more

48:45

commerce shifts to lightning, then maybe

48:47

some of it moves to things like lightning address

48:49

or maybe in the future, bolt twelve LNURL,

48:52

these kinds of approaches. But,

48:54

yeah, it seems to me like pit forty seven is

48:57

going to be the useful approach especially

48:59

in the case where you need to regularly pay

49:01

the same person again and again. So

49:03

especially in the context of an employer

49:05

relationship, or even mining

49:07

pools. I believe Lynncoin has

49:10

this feature as a mining pool, which is

49:12

pretty cool. So maybe

49:14

over time, we sort of see a shift

49:16

towards the bolt twelve or lightning

49:19

address style because maybe that's more

49:21

scalable and usable for these

49:23

smaller transactions. But

49:25

I think the BIP forty seven,

49:27

it seems to me like it's here to stay at least in

49:30

certain niches. I think maybe

49:32

the criticisms, I could understand against

49:34

bit forty seven is one, there's not a lot of wall

49:37

to support it. Right? And I think that's fair.

49:39

And secondarily is the aspect

49:41

of meeting a notification transaction on

49:44

chain for every individual

49:46

that you wanna set up this bit forty seven. Let's

49:48

go at a bit forty seven channel or have that transaction

49:50

notification. So I think That's the

49:52

other aspect where I could understand

49:54

if you wanna take donations. It's kind of it's a

49:56

lot more friction if you need somebody to be

49:58

able to do that on chain notification

50:01

and then take donations. Certainly,

50:04

it makes sense for large donations that people

50:06

would do that. But I think in the context

50:08

of, let's say, I need to just put this QR

50:10

up and just take quick donations. I think

50:13

maybe vault twelve or lightning address

50:15

style approaches are faster in that

50:17

way. But certainly, they come with their own

50:19

trade offs too, right? Yeah, I mean,

50:21

the big downside is that, of course, good

50:23

lightning requires you to be online,

50:26

right? You need to know and either if you're going

50:28

to run your own node, which you

50:30

should, of course, because we all trying to be as non

50:32

consolidated as we can,

50:34

then that node needs to be online,

50:37

stay online, in which case you're very

50:39

much in the same situation as BDC

50:41

TASER, which, you know, I've got no

50:43

issue with that, you know, it is a more

50:45

difficult thing for many people in this world.

50:48

I would actually say that,

50:50

you know, I I do note that

50:54

some have an issue with sending

50:56

this notification transaction. The

50:59

cost of it is actually really small. It's like

51:01

the minimum amount that

51:03

you need to spend like five hundred and something

51:05

cents. So I mean from a

51:07

from a cost point of view is really minimal.

51:10

I would say that the kind

51:12

of the more impactful thing is

51:14

the fact that you have to be a little bit aware of

51:16

the UTXO that you use to

51:19

send it. And Spiro does some work to try

51:21

and make sure that it doesn't, you

51:23

know, resend UTX's

51:26

those or these that change from notification

51:28

transactions unless it needs

51:30

to. So I think that that's more

51:33

of concern than spending

51:35

what is really a tiny amount of money.

51:37

The other, I think, down downside is

51:39

that you need to use a hot wallet and

51:41

for many people, that isn't ideal. That's

51:44

it. I will say that, you know, there

51:46

are many, many hot wallets in this world

51:48

and we hear remarkably few

51:51

cases where those hot wallets are being compromised.

51:55

I'm sure it does happen, but the reality

51:57

is most of the time you hear about people

51:59

forgetting their past phrase, not about the

52:01

fact that somehow their hot wallet was

52:04

hacked. So I think that

52:07

those two are downsides, but

52:09

they're not massive in my

52:11

view and certainly not a reason that

52:14

shouldn't be trying to

52:16

implement the forty seven and trying

52:18

to use it. Yeah. And I think one other aspect

52:21

that If we want to see more Bitcoin

52:23

use and I think most of us agree

52:25

with that, we want to see more people using Bitcoin

52:27

and adopting Bitcoin. One thing that would

52:29

be really useful there is having a feature,

52:32

something like a contact list in our

52:34

applications. And I think

52:36

maybe that's been one difficulty so far.

52:38

I know some people have tried it. There have been

52:40

attempts at this, but it just it hasn't

52:42

seemed to stick really other than,

52:44

let's say, in Samurai Wallet or perhaps in

52:46

Sparrow Wallet if you have a few pay nIMs that you have

52:49

already set with or p forty seven codes

52:51

that you've set up with. And I'm curious

52:53

your thoughts that how important or relevant

52:55

is the is this notion of a contact list

52:57

in our Bitcoin

52:58

wallet. Yes, I mean, I do think

53:00

that it certainly makes things easier.

53:02

And I think that that's the reason why

53:04

paynams have seen such adoption

53:07

really. It is unusual for

53:10

Bitcoiners to use a

53:12

center centralized kind of service.

53:15

And I don't think that it's going to stay stay that

53:17

way. think it is due to change

53:19

and become a more decentralized thing.

53:22

But pain them certainly indicate

53:24

to us how it's so much easier just

53:27

to remember someone's NIM and

53:29

then be able to enter that in. So,

53:31

you know, It's useful,

53:33

but, you know, again, we want to be cautious

53:36

here because we don't want to get tied to something

53:38

which, you know, connects too

53:40

many connections to service

53:42

that we might not be able to control. So

53:45

think some pros and cons, but

53:48

can certainly see how you

53:50

know, if you want to send a donation to

53:52

SpireWise, you can just, you know, enter that

53:54

in as a sort of pain and it

53:57

pops up, so it makes life so much easier.

53:59

Right. And so when it comes

54:01

to just Bitcoin more broadly,

54:03

we've been talking a lot about security and a

54:05

little bit about privacy as well. I'm

54:07

curious if you have any things on your

54:09

wish list or things that you would

54:12

like to see kind of as a closing comment.

54:14

Is there anything that you would you know, if we could waive

54:16

our magic wand or if if you could

54:18

see development go in a particular

54:20

direction, what sorts of things would you like

54:22

to see? Well, I mean, I I

54:24

guess my, you know, sort of perennial

54:27

one is really size, cross

54:29

input, signature aggregation. That

54:32

one is just a

54:35

particular approach to being able to have

54:37

one signature for all of the

54:39

inputs of a transaction. And

54:42

the big advantage to that is

54:44

not only that it makes transactions smaller

54:46

and they're costless But I think the

54:49

key one is that it changes the fee

54:51

dynamics to favor transactions where

54:53

you have multiple people

54:56

coming in, and that of course breaks

54:58

the common input ownership heuristic.

55:01

So for me, that is always going

55:03

to be top of my list and I'm going to be

55:05

asking for it and wanting it until

55:08

hopefully one day we sit. So if

55:11

there was ever – I do believe

55:13

that there is some work ongoing on it, but

55:16

I'm kind of unaware of how much

55:18

and how far off it is. But that

55:20

for

55:20

me, it's always gonna gonna be very high

55:22

on the list. Yeah. And in fact,

55:25

I know Jonas, Nick,

55:27

and Tim Ruffing were doing some work on half

55:30

aggregation, which is a related idea about

55:32

an episode on that. But in terms

55:34

of the broader, the full piece, I

55:36

think that's going to be some ways off. Of

55:38

course, I would like to see that as well. I think

55:40

it would be a big win for scalability

55:43

and potentially for privacy also.

55:45

So it'd be really cool if we see that.

55:48

I'm hoping. He's hoping. Right?

55:50

I'm hoping. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

55:53

Alright. Well, listeners make sure you follow Craig

55:55

spare wallet dot com is the place to go to get

55:57

Spare wallet. Follow him. You can find

55:59

his handle, his Craig Raw, and most places.

56:02

And I've got I'll put the Nastra, N

56:04

pub, and few other details in there.

56:06

Craig, thanks for joining me, and great

56:08

job with everything you're doing on Spare

56:10

wallet and Bitcoin

56:11

development. Thank you. Stephan has

56:13

been great to be up again. Yeah.

56:16

It's

56:17

looking forward to the next

56:20

few months and seeing everyone

56:23

hopefully we'll be able to get out to few

56:25

conferences this year. So, yeah,

56:27

looking forward to seeing senior

56:29

Get the show notes over at stéphane levera dot

56:31

com slash 462. Thanks for listening,

56:33

and I'll see you in the citadels.