0:32

I had a moment when I was 17 or 18, like

0:34

go to school, work, retire, and die?

0:36

Like, That's it?! I didn't want

0:38

that. And I was set on this path of, oh, like

0:40

it's probably going to be a lot more fulfilling to

0:42

work or live a lifestyle

0:44

that you want to be doing instead of just sacrificing

0:47

yourself for a job or subjecting yourself

0:49

to a boss that doesn't treat you well.

0:51

I didn't want to be unhappy doing what

0:53

I did. And so all of my jobs were wired

0:56

with let's make sure we're enjoying what we do.

1:01

You're listening to these Still Curious Podcast

1:04

with me, Daniel Poyner. My guest

1:06

today is Eric Leidums, who

1:08

is the content creator behind That Mountain

1:10

Life, where he documents his family's

1:12

outdoor adventures and parenting journey

1:15

in a small mountain town in the interior

1:17

of British Columbia, Canada. Today's

1:20

conversation is all about risk,

1:22

play and reward. It's

1:24

about celebrating effort as well

1:26

as outcome, learning through experience

1:29

and adventure and building confidence

1:31

and resilience over time to ride

1:33

out the inevitable bumps along the way.

1:36

It's about showing up in the world, building

1:38

a fulfilling and integrated lifestyle

1:41

that aligns with your values and

1:43

freeing yourself from the need for

1:45

external validation.

1:46

I stopped caring about grades. Grades

1:48

were dead to me. Just didn't matter because

1:50

I didn't need or want that external validation

1:53

from a teacher. And so if I wasn't into

1:55

an assignment and it didn't feel aligned with me, I didn't want

1:57

to do it. And probably why I'm unschooling

2:00

my kids now. Right?

2:01

Eric has been a go getter from the get, go

2:03

enterprising and with a background in adventure

2:06

tourism, outdoor education, river

2:08

guiding and leading youth on wilderness trips,

2:10

as well as working as a paramedic. Now

2:13

he's busy making videos for a living. But

2:15

for Eric, all the hustle is really about

2:17

creating a lifestyle that's fun, interesting

2:20

and fulfilling for him and his family.

2:22

Mountain life is slower.

2:25

It's got movement built in

2:27

as a value we're surrounded by mountains.

2:29

So not only do you have this awe

2:32

and this awesomeness that's the

2:34

nature around us. You can also

2:36

play and interact on the mountains and with

2:38

the mountains. It snows 20 centimeters

2:40

and the shops are closed because the shop owners

2:42

and staff want to go ski the powder. It's this

2:45

idea of working to live and not

2:47

living to work. A lot of people are here

2:49

for the lifestyle, not just

2:51

to make a ton of money and maybe have a big

2:53

career.

2:54

Eric's work and lifestyle is all about

2:56

combining parenting and adventure. The

2:58

content he creates through that mountain life

3:00

explores themes of conscious parenting,

3:03

unschooling and pushing and stretching

3:05

our comfort zones in supportive ways.

3:07

one of the most rewarding things I

3:10

feel like as a mentor a coach is to

3:12

be present at the birth of

3:14

another human, being in their

3:16

flow state or their edge, like at their

3:18

edge. So the nudge is when a human is at

3:20

their edge and maybe they have a story

3:22

in their head, and they're saying I'm not sure I can

3:25

do this or I'm scared. I find

3:27

the nudge is to be that supportive voice.

3:29

As usual, this is a conversation that

3:31

goes on all sorts of tangents while being

3:33

packed full of surprising substance throughout.

3:36

We talk about being an unplanned dad.

3:39

The business mechanics of being a full-time

3:41

content creator. Why playing

3:43

poker is a form of meditation.

3:45

And the one book Eric read in high school

3:47

that forever changed his life. Enjoy

3:50

it's Eric litems coming up after the music

3:53

on today's episode of the still curious

3:56

podcast. Hi,

4:22

Erich, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

4:24

I am great. Thanks for having me here.

4:27

So you're the content creator behind

4:29

That Mountain Life, where you document

4:31

your family's outdoor adventures and

4:33

parenting journey in a small mountain town

4:36

in the interior of British Columbia, Canada,

4:39

your videos on YouTube and Instagram

4:41

cover outdoor adventure, family,

4:43

conscious parenting, homeschooling,

4:45

risky play, and small town, mountain

4:48

lifestyle among other things. And,

4:50

after about three and a half years, you're now a full-time

4:52

content creator and social media

4:54

influencer navigating the world of digital

4:56

marketing with over 850,000

4:59

followers across all platforms. What

5:01

would you say is the most important thing for someone

5:03

to understand about you and what you do?

5:06

Where I am today and creating content full

5:08

time is awesome. It's creative.

5:10

That's something I'm really grateful for and

5:13

it comes with a lot of work, a lot of struggles,

5:15

a lot of uncertainty. I feel like

5:17

it's easy to be scrolling on social

5:20

media and say, I want to do that

5:22

or be like that. It's a great position at the end

5:24

and, it you know, the there's pros and cons

5:26

to it. I've never worked harder to pay

5:29

the bills this way, even though I have a

5:31

significant following, it doesn't just land

5:33

on my lap.

5:34

No, there's a lot of work that goes on behind

5:36

the scenes, I think. Maybe let's talk about

5:38

that mountain life, the channel. How would you describe

5:40

what goes on there and who it's for?

5:43

Yeah, I just started documenting

5:46

our outdoor adventures. It started in the winter,

5:48

following my kids with the camera, skiing down

5:50

ski runs, and I wanted

5:52

to learn how to make videos. And so I taught

5:55

myself just with YouTube tutorials, how

5:57

to start vlogging. The videos

5:59

are for anybody that enjoys

6:01

the outdoors, anybody that's a parent,

6:04

used to be a parent of young kids, or maybe might

6:07

become a parent. I feel like I have

6:09

people watching me from teenagers to

6:11

grandparents. So, the content

6:13

is wholesome. Family centered.

6:15

A lot of outdoor activities is the main theme,

6:18

and there's adventure and challenges

6:21

that we overcome, and then also just a lot

6:23

of fun. It's a lot of action-packed

6:25

joy. I feel like, at the end of the day, what I'm doing

6:27

is sharing my joy and love that I have

6:29

of the mountains with my kids.

6:32

And then I just share that with the rest of the world

6:34

as well.

6:35

I've seen your videos. Wholesome is definitely the

6:37

word for it. I've seen some of the ones where

6:39

you miked up your daughter going

6:42

down the slopes and so

6:44

articulate and confident and fun.

6:46

It's really interesting just to see that vibe.

6:48

What's the response been like?

6:50

The miked up videos of Attia, she's our youngest

6:53

and she's now four. Those videos were when

6:55

she was a big two. So

6:57

she was like two and three quarters that winter,

7:00

before she turned three and the

7:02

internet loved her voice

7:04

and just her articulation and really

7:07

helped connect with viewers

7:09

in terms of just, like there

7:11

was this cute young girl who is

7:14

very competent at skiing and, when she's comfortable

7:16

and in her flow state, she babbles

7:19

and talks and self monologues in

7:21

a very adorable way.

7:23

And that was the hook that

7:25

grew my following, or that was the sort

7:27

of the viral videos. And, February

7:29

1st of 2020

7:32

or 21, but I had 3000

7:34

Instagram followers and by the end of March, two months later,

7:36

we had 120 K. So it just

7:39

blew up over two months of these

7:41

videos getting spread.

7:42

Yeah. Wow! You've got a business

7:44

diploma in adventure tourism, and

7:46

you've done ski patrol, river

7:48

guiding and leading youth on

7:51

wilderness trips. I understand it's that

7:53

latter that really lights you up. Can

7:55

you share what gets you excited about witnessing

7:57

young people gain an appreciation for wild

8:00

places?

8:01

Working as an outdoor educator is by far

8:03

one of the most enjoyable occupations

8:06

I had as a young adult. I think it's

8:08

because I was able to play myself

8:10

while I was still working. There's something

8:12

about stripping down life to

8:14

more of the basics. There's a lot less

8:16

excess when you're out on

8:19

a multi-day canoe trip or backpacking

8:21

trip, trecking, whitewater rafting,

8:23

flatwater canoeing. If you can

8:26

pack up what you need for 10

8:28

days or 20 days into a 30 liter dry

8:30

bag or a small backpack, and

8:32

that's all you need. And then you go out as

8:34

a community, as a group, you are this mobile

8:36

community. You're forced to face

8:38

more of the basics of life. I feel

8:40

like that provides perspective for young people

8:43

and it instills confidence and builds resilience

8:46

and people get to learn a lot about themselves

8:48

when they're in those environments where you

8:51

move away from some of those creature comforts that our

8:53

society gives us all the time.

8:55

So I feel like there's real value there, and

8:57

it's not a suffer fest by any means,

9:00

but I feel like it's a real opportunity for

9:02

youth to just grow and learn a lot more about

9:04

themselves.

9:05

Great answer. I can feel the enthusiasm

9:07

for this radiating off you and as someone

9:09

who enjoys their creature comforts

9:11

a little too much, perhaps, it's almost

9:14

inspiring me to get out there. I'm not sure

9:16

if it's going to quite tip me over the edge, cause

9:18

I'm pretty set in my ways, but outdoor

9:20

curious. Let's put it that way. You mentioned this

9:22

phrase just then as an outdoor educator.

9:24

One of the things I always do on the podcast is

9:27

ask people to explain a

9:29

term of art as if to a 10

9:31

year old. I'm wondering if you can explain

9:33

what outdoor education is to a 10 year old.

9:35

I think I would say, outdoor education

9:38

is about going outside

9:40

into nature to experience

9:43

that nature and yourself in

9:45

it. You can learn about the plants

9:47

and the trees and have experiences with wild

9:49

animals and that in itself

9:52

is almost a holistic experience

9:54

and very memorable at times. And there's

9:56

something very serene and peaceful

9:59

about being in that environment. And then

10:01

you can also learn again about yourself

10:03

in that more interpersonal, soft

10:06

skill way, solving problems,

10:08

you know, the outdoor environment is nowhere

10:11

near short of opportunities

10:13

and things to cause a problem

10:15

or you know, an obstacle in your way, whether

10:18

it's inclement weather or just a tree

10:20

you want to climb or a rapid, you want to navigate

10:22

down a river and you want to do it safely.

10:24

And. I just realized I lost

10:27

the ten-year-old. I started off with a ten-year-old

10:29

definition, but, uh, kept going.

10:32

Thank you for that. I'd be really interested if you've got any

10:34

examples you can share from those trips

10:36

about some of those problems

10:38

and challenges that arise that

10:40

are unplanned, I guess.

10:42

Yeah, like a really good, simple example

10:44

would be if somebody

10:47

goes to bed in a tent, let's say you have

10:49

a couple of 13 year olds on a canoe trip. And,

10:52

as an instructor and as the leader, you explained

10:54

to them the importance of taking care of their stuff.

10:56

That's a value that's really important. And

10:59

maybe they go to bed one night in a tent

11:01

and they leave their rain jacket

11:03

on the rocks and the wind picks up at

11:05

night and all of a sudden they're

11:08

no longer with a rain jacket because it got picked

11:10

up and blown down the river and

11:12

so what do we do for the next six days where,

11:15

maybe the weather is going to be friendly and they get away with

11:17

it. Maybe it gets cool and rainy, and now

11:19

you have participants offering

11:21

to share their rain jacket, to help out with this person.

11:24

And I guarantee you that very

11:26

experiential lesson with a real

11:28

consequential outcome of

11:30

choosing to do it their

11:32

way or whatnot, it's just an experience

11:34

where they get to learn. I think that's a good concrete example

11:37

of what experiential education is. You

11:39

can maybe say it and state it as

11:41

an educator or a teacher or

11:43

instructor, but until you

11:45

live it and experience the consequences

11:48

and you want to obviously mitigate

11:51

and not have consequences be too dire

11:53

and drastic. And I feel like that's one of the key roles

11:56

as an outdoor educator is to, make sure you're objectively

11:59

assessing the risks and that the group is

12:01

still within a reasonable tolerance of staying

12:03

safe. Right.

12:04

A really good explanation. Thank you. I had another

12:06

guest on here talk about experiential

12:08

learning as having an undeniable

12:11

experience, which I think is a nice

12:13

way of capturing that kind of consequential

12:15

thing you're talking about. On the

12:17

education front, are you doing

12:19

anything to reflect on what

12:21

they take out of those experiences?

12:24

Do you have a debrief or is there an activity

12:26

about what they learned or how does that work?

12:29

Yeah. Communication is an essential

12:31

soft-skill interpersonal

12:33

skill to develop when you're

12:35

out as a team or a group navigating

12:38

the wilderness or an outdoor setting. And so,

12:40

we're constantly debriefing

12:43

and even front-loading parts of a day

12:45

or an activity. And then stepping

12:47

back and not intervening when it's

12:49

optimal and then stepping in when it's

12:51

necessary and of course, reflecting and debriefing

12:54

anything that needs to happen.

12:56

I'm interested in the way that your videos

12:59

can combine education

13:01

and parenting and adventure. And I'd

13:03

love to talk a bit about your philosophy

13:05

of parenting and education, I guess I hear

13:07

you say a fair bit. Don't bubble

13:09

wrap your kids. What does that phrase mean

13:12

to you?

13:13

Well, yeah, that's an adage that I think I even heard

13:15

that phrase as a kid a little bit here and

13:17

there. I never really gave much thought to it. You know,

13:19

the term helicopter parenting is a relatively

13:21

new term. I think in the early

13:24

two thousands, there's some academia

13:27

and stuff, talking about studying

13:29

social sciences of different parenting techniques

13:31

and talking about risk and being risk adverse.

13:34

You know, the road to hell can be paved with the best

13:36

of intentions is a quote. And it's

13:38

very instinctual on one level to

13:40

want to protect our kids from

13:42

the world's ills and harms

13:45

and not just physically, but also emotionally

13:47

and psychologically. I quickly

13:49

could see how, I don't know what

13:51

it is. It's just a cultural kind of awareness

13:54

I had, that if you

13:56

avoid risk all the time

13:59

and try to stay out of harm's way, then

14:01

you're not embracing the full human

14:03

experience of what it means to be alive,

14:06

which has risks built into

14:08

it and even harm and pain

14:10

and loss and suffering. All that is part

14:12

of our human psyches. I'm a dad,

14:14

I'm wired to keep my kids safe

14:16

and provide for them physically,

14:19

emotionally, psychologically. I

14:21

want to provide like nothing

14:23

else. But in that I realized that I think

14:25

the best way to provide is

14:27

to not overbearingly protect them

14:29

too much because they need to

14:32

build resilience and skills to be

14:34

able to become atonomous

14:37

young adults who are going to be able to be confident,

14:39

navigating the pain

14:42

and suffering and sadness that comes with life

14:44

when things don't go as planned.

14:45

Is it significant that there

14:47

was such a big response to your

14:50

videos at the time around the

14:52

start of the pandemic? Given

14:54

what you're saying about risk being built into

14:56

life? Or is that an overreach?

14:58

Yeah, I think that's just coincidence in terms

15:00

of that. I feel like this is deeply ingrained

15:03

in a lot of Western culture.

15:05

I mean, If you're in poverty and

15:07

in war torn countries and in rural

15:10

environments. And I think in much of the world,

15:12

the west is almost an exception

15:14

in the level of comfort and excess that they have.

15:17

And I feel like helicopter parenting is more

15:19

prevalent in America

15:21

and Canada and maybe some of the other

15:24

Commonwealth type nations, even in Europe, in

15:26

Germany though. There's subtle cultural,

15:28

nuanced differences where that's not

15:30

as prevalent. My wife read

15:32

a book about a mom who moved from the U S to Germany,

15:35

and she was just baffled at how many kids

15:37

were walking to school and taking

15:39

public transit blocks and blocks away

15:41

from home at a very young age. So there's

15:43

this cultural, deeply ingrained thing

15:45

that's happening on a generational level in

15:47

the west. when people watch the videos, they're

15:49

like, oh, there's this dad doing

15:51

it this way. That's not overprotecting his kids.

15:54

And that kind of resonates and lands.

15:56

I heard you say, kids thrive when empowered

15:59

to take risks, navigate challenges,

16:01

and learn what they're capable of. You're

16:03

about celebrating effort, not just the outcome

16:06

and your approach is to give kids as much

16:09

opportunity as possible to make their own

16:11

choices, even when it's not exactly

16:13

what you would choose to do. I'm curious how you

16:15

came to that philosophy. Was it part of your

16:17

experience growing up?

16:18

I was a nineties kid in a small town

16:20

in Canada. I'm in a mid-sized town. And

16:23

I, I was able to roam around and play

16:25

freely in my neighborhood, on a bike

16:27

with my friends in the neighbourhood. Impromptu

16:29

hockey games, exploring the forest,

16:31

you know, went to summer camps and there was lots of free

16:34

time and play. And played

16:36

hard and really enjoyed a lot of

16:38

unstructured play. At the same time,

16:40

I was also highly scheduled,

16:43

went to school and

16:45

I got a lot of praise and attention

16:48

and love from my parents or adults

16:50

when I did well in school

16:52

or sports or extracurricular. That

16:54

achievement external validation.

16:57

And so as an adult, I've done

16:59

some work to be aware of those patterns

17:01

and trends of putting too much emphasis

17:04

on the outcome and the achievement. And

17:06

then I also really related to my upbringing

17:08

of having space to roam around and be

17:10

free. I'm very reflective. And I like

17:13

to think about things and ask questions

17:15

as you do. And I'm curious. And so one

17:17

way I describe how I parent is I'm reflective.

17:20

I like to reflect on our parenting strategies

17:22

and techniques. And so when our young kids,

17:25

every six months they grow and change and then

17:27

we're just always reflecting on how can we meet

17:29

their needs the best, and

17:31

maybe what we did last year isn't the best for

17:33

them this year, because they're older and we need to adapt.

17:36

And I'm just constantly reflecting on

17:38

what we could do to meet our kids' needs.

17:41

Was there ever a time that you played

17:43

really hard and had to meet some

17:45

of the consequences of your actions

17:48

that you learned from, like on a trip?

17:50

I had lots of big crashes

17:52

on the bike. I remember one time, I was probably

17:54

12, racing around the block and we

17:56

slipped out on some gravel on the pavement and

17:58

I was just covered in road rash

18:00

and abbrasions and cuts from head to toe. There we were

18:03

11, 12 years old in the neighborhood and I'm a

18:05

block away from home. And I remember

18:07

my mom sticking me in a bath full of hydrogen peroxide

18:10

and it's just stinged and burned.

18:12

And I mean, I have, I think, lots of

18:14

minor to moderate injuries as a kid,

18:17

right. When you're kind of going hard as a boy

18:19

playing, but fortunately nothing significant.

18:22

I like this idea you have of nudging,

18:25

pushing and stretching someone's comfort

18:27

zone in a supportive way. What can you tell

18:29

me about that idea of nudging?

18:31

I'm really starting to love this concept.

18:33

I think as a parent, I often see myself

18:36

as a coach or a mentor, uh, especially

18:38

when there's an activity involved or a task,

18:40

and maybe they are learning at their own

18:42

pace. It's one of the most

18:44

rewarding things I feel like

18:46

as a mentor a coach is to be

18:49

present at the birth of

18:51

another human, being

18:53

in their flow state or their edge, like at

18:55

their edge. So the nudge is when a human is

18:57

at their edge and maybe they have a story

18:59

in their head, and they're saying I'm not sure

19:02

I can do this or I'm scared. I

19:04

find the nudge is to be that supportive

19:06

voice. Our son, August the oldest, he's actually

19:08

quite reserved. And on the

19:10

timid side, when it comes to outdoor adventure

19:12

sports, he doesn't have a high competitive

19:15

drive. He doesn't have that killer instinct

19:17

to want to be the best and send himself

19:19

off lifts or jumps. I'm

19:21

totally okay with that because it's

19:23

just one less thing I have to worry about. I know he's going

19:25

to make a conservative decision. And when I

19:27

was teaching him how to ski, I was

19:29

attuned to the days where

19:31

he wasn't open to being pushed and we would

19:34

just cruise and have fun.

19:36

So if we go skiing 10 days in

19:38

two weeks, which wasn't uncommon or in maybe

19:40

a 20 day period, we go skiing 10 times eight

19:43

of them we do what he is comfortable

19:45

and what he knows, and we're singing and dancing

19:47

and playing and having fun. And we're just enjoying

19:50

it and there's no push or nudge,

19:52

but then on day nine, maybe

19:55

the conditions are good. And he's

19:57

just got a lot of practice over those previous

19:59

eight days. And so day nine

20:01

is the day where he's ready to get nudged

20:04

to the next thing. And he's not even so

20:06

sure that he might be able to do it,

20:08

but it's coming from him, he's showing interest. And

20:10

then I can nudge and say, yeah, but I think you can

20:12

do this. That's what the nudge is all about

20:14

to me.

20:15

Yeah, that's really powerful. A

20:17

lot of the stories that people tell me on

20:19

this podcast about moments

20:22

that have really opened them up and sent them

20:24

down new pathways have

20:26

been about those nudge moments, where they

20:28

had someone in a supportive and

20:30

nurturing relationship who really

20:32

saw them and then just gave them

20:34

a push at the right moment. That stuff really

20:36

changes lives.

20:38

In the parenting realm, there's the old

20:40

school, or maybe the more abrasive, less

20:42

empathetic way of like, you know, your eight

20:44

year old child doesn't know how to swim or your 10 year old and

20:47

you throw them off the dock and you say, figure it out.

20:49

And then the over-protective way

20:52

might be you have a 15 year

20:54

old, and there's nothing wrong with never having learned

20:56

how to swim in a vacuum, but, if

20:58

you're going to always just stay comfortable, as a parent,

21:00

you're just going to comfort them in that

21:03

and that's all you do, then

21:05

they're never going to dip their toe in the water because you've

21:07

never nudged them to. And so

21:10

the nudge is the balance between those two strategies.

21:12

I don't want to throw my kids off the dock and force

21:14

them to be uncomfortable and scared.

21:17

I liked the way you framed that as holding

21:19

it in balance between two extremes,

21:21

but there's a lot that goes into reading

21:24

that balance. I think. How do you tell

21:26

when someone's ready for it?

21:27

Yeah, I think it's attunement to their energy

21:29

and being aware of their skill. So

21:32

remind my son that I will never suggest

21:34

him to try something that

21:36

I know he's not ready for. Like

21:39

with a child walking. When they're first learning how

21:41

to walk, they fall down so many times, but

21:43

like five days into their first steps,

21:45

maybe they took a break and they they don't want to continue

21:48

doing it. 10 days later, they're back

21:50

into it. And it's just amazing how incrementally,

21:53

especially young kids under seven

21:55

every week, every month is like this.

21:58

They're sponges and they're growing so

22:00

fast. I feel like it's

22:03

just this balance of wanting to support them

22:05

and meet them at their comfort zone and then

22:07

paying attention for when they're ready. And

22:09

a lot of the time it can just come on their own and

22:11

they just do it experientially without a

22:13

nudge because they're just growing and they're

22:15

gaining their own confidence. When

22:17

they fall down and have a little crash, usually there's

22:20

a psychological confidence drop,

22:22

which makes sense. And that's a good, healthy

22:24

balance. I fell trying

22:26

this jump. I now have road rash. They're

22:28

not going to try that jump again the rest of that day or

22:30

the next week, maybe because they need to regain

22:33

their confidence. So as somebody paying

22:35

attention to when are they ready for the nudge?

22:37

I don't know. I feel like a lot of what I do. It's hard

22:40

to describe because it's just this attunement

22:43

and presence and love that goes

22:45

into it.

22:46

I'm interested in the story that

22:48

connects the outdoor education work you're doing

22:50

to the content creation work you're doing

22:52

now. Content creator is not a

22:55

category that's existed for that long. Did

22:57

you have a plan A when you were little?

23:00

I was a straight A student in school,

23:02

I was being groomed to go to post-secondary education.

23:04

Grades came easy to me. I enjoyed

23:07

school. I read a book when I was 17

23:09

called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn and

23:12

I almost dropped out of school. if you're familiar with Chris

23:15

McCandless and the movie, Into The Wild, or

23:17

the book by John Krakauer. He's

23:19

a kid in the U S that basically is disenfranchised

23:22

with the establishment and just goes off the deep

23:24

end and moves into Alaska, lives in a school bus.

23:26

He basically starved in the wild trying to

23:28

survive, like a modern day, Henry David

23:30

Thoreau, gonna move into the woods and say, see

23:33

you later society. I had a moment when

23:35

I was 17 or 18, like go to school,

23:37

work, retire, and die. Like, That's it.

23:39

I didn't want that. And I was set on this path

23:42

of, oh, like it's probably going to be a lot more fulfilling

23:44

to work or live a lifestyle

23:46

that you want to be doing instead of just sacrificing

23:49

yourself for a job or subjecting yourself

23:51

to a boss that doesn't treat you well.

23:53

And all this stuff, I didn't want to be unhappy

23:56

doing what I did. So I loved

23:58

skiing and I moved to the mountains to start

24:00

ski patrolling and, That was after I was an

24:02

educator and worked at summer camps. And

24:04

so all of my jobs were wired with

24:07

let's make sure we're enjoying what we do. Our

24:09

first child August was unplanned. It was a woopsie.

24:12

That was where I was like, okay, maybe

24:14

I'm going to need to up my game here a little

24:17

bit. I'm not going to be able to just be a raft guide and ski

24:19

patroller forever. But with that being

24:21

said, I was really good with money and being

24:23

frugal. And I became

24:25

a paramedic because it was the natural

24:27

progression after ski patrolling and doing first

24:29

aid. I love helping

24:31

people and navigating tough

24:33

situations and problem solving and being

24:35

a first responder has that. Just

24:38

thinking about work and reflecting on creating

24:40

a living, I had this drive to be

24:42

an entrepreneur. I thought about Instead

24:44

of just exchanging my time for a paycheck forever

24:47

at a job, what could I do

24:49

to become an entrepreneur? And so

24:51

this idea of like starting a side hustle, side

24:53

hustle culture on the internet is everywhere. And I

24:55

think there's a lot of BS and smoke screens for

24:57

a lot of it. I ended up following

25:00

Gary Vaynerchuk. He's not loved by everybody.

25:02

He's critiqued a little bit of maybe being too much hustle

25:04

culture because he's just a go getter.

25:07

But he instilled this idea

25:09

of when it comes to social media content creation,

25:12

it's about documenting your authentic

25:15

self and your story, not

25:17

creating. And that is what

25:19

made me realize it's all they have to do. Use

25:22

a GoPro or my cell phone and

25:25

just record what happens. And

25:27

I can pull little snippets from that to

25:29

tell a story from our skiing

25:31

day or our mountain biking adventure. I

25:34

read more of Gary's work, his guide to growing

25:36

on Instagram. And it was just this idea of

25:38

instead of watching Netflix at night every night

25:41

and relaxing, what could I do

25:43

to invest in myself to maybe learn

25:45

some new skills that I could monetize

25:47

as a side business, along

25:50

the way, which would help provide for my family.

25:52

Again, I want to do it with something that

25:54

I love doing and that's fun and interesting.

25:56

It sounds like that drive to be

25:59

an entrepreneur was sitting there for a while, and

26:01

then you were looking for something

26:03

to attach it to. How did that moment

26:05

of realization happen? Was it a sudden

26:08

flash or did it creep up on you?

26:10

I didn't know. So personal finance

26:12

was interesting to me investing and

26:14

entrepreneurship is a lot about generating cashflow

26:17

and solving problems and providing

26:19

value. And then you monetize that and whether

26:21

it's a product or a service or an

26:24

artist, you are providing value

26:26

that people pay for. And

26:28

I didn't know what business

26:31

I was gonna run or do. I just

26:33

always knew that it was something that I wanted

26:35

to do and is really rewarding.

26:37

Cause there's no ceiling there like there is when

26:39

you're an employee. It took me a couple

26:41

months, maybe even, almost a year.

26:44

When we went viral on Instagram

26:46

and then Tik Tok to come into

26:48

it and realize, okay, how can

26:51

I make money doing this now that we have a big

26:53

enough audience? I was kind of paralyzed

26:55

with what to do first because when you

26:57

run a business and you're making content, there's lots of

26:59

stuff to do behind the backend. And I didn't

27:01

know what to prioritize my time doing.

27:04

That held me up for a little bit and

27:06

I kept getting in the ring and doing stuff

27:08

and trying stuff, even hired a couple of people to help me that

27:11

didn't work out. Now. I have two people,

27:13

an amazing team, and they're doing all the

27:15

right things, helping me and I can

27:17

just focus on content creation a lot more. So

27:19

it's good.

27:21

All of these ideas sound like

27:23

very well-packaged reflections that

27:25

you've become comfortable with over a

27:27

long period of time. But I want to go back to

27:29

that book that you were talking about when you

27:31

were 17. What happened? Tell me,

27:33

Tell me about this book and where were you when

27:35

you read it? It's very unusual to hear a story

27:37

like that.

27:38

Grade 11 biology class and it

27:40

wasn't even part of the curriculum. The

27:42

teacher that assigned it, assigned it because

27:44

the head of the science department would assign

27:46

this book when he was teaching

27:48

this grade biology class. I

27:50

read the book and just had so many aha

27:52

moments that I think philosophically

27:55

and culturally, I hadn't really been introduced

27:57

to before. It just struck a chord.

27:59

It just pulled at my heartstrings and

28:01

I had to read a two page assignment. It probably took

28:03

me 15 minutes to write my two pages. I

28:06

remember we had a class discussion about it the next

28:08

morning, Danu, and I thought

28:10

that like everybody else was going to be on the same

28:12

page. It is an epiphany

28:15

moment where my life was one

28:17

thing before that. And afterwards it

28:19

set me on a path to realize

28:21

I can question societal

28:24

and social norms. I can question

28:26

institutions. It helped me become curious

28:28

again. I felt alone. I

28:30

was in school. I was on basketball

28:33

team. Nobody really wanted to talk about it. And

28:35

he, you know, I'm obviously passionate

28:37

about it. Eventually I, you know,

28:39

I got suspended because I'd sang a

28:41

gold finger song that was all about anti

28:43

schooling and factory farming. And I

28:45

dropped an F-bomb at a school cafeteria

28:48

music thing, got suspended. So I was sort of

28:50

like, rebelling and coming into my own

28:52

and for a good four or five years,

28:54

I just was pretty like antiestablishmentary.

28:58

There was three or four teachers at my school

29:00

that were like, right on Eric. You are on your

29:02

path now and I can see you. And

29:04

a lot of other teachers were like, what happened

29:06

to you? You used to be such a good student.

29:09

What an incredible transformation. It sounds

29:11

like this teacher who assigned that book

29:13

outside the curriculum, might've been a bit of a

29:15

rebel as well. What was his deal?

29:18

Yeah, Dr. Carly. He's on Vancouver island,

29:20

I think full-time, I haven't been in touch with him in a while,

29:22

but, yeah, he was obviously I think

29:24

probably in his forties, maybe. At that

29:26

time as a teacher and was

29:29

a heck of a lot more calm and centered

29:31

and had more years under his belt to reflect

29:33

on all of our society's

29:35

issues and our cultural issues. He helped me afterwards

29:38

and had me over for afternoon

29:40

tea and stuff to like, just keep

29:42

thinking and discussing stuff after a little bit.

29:44

So that was good. He was a bit of

29:46

a mentor for sure, in that stage of my life.

29:49

You said something really interesting. You said

29:51

it helped you rediscover your curiosity

29:55

and you were 17

29:57

and you were doing really well in school.

29:59

What had happened to your curiosity?

30:02

You were doing well, but you weren't curious.

30:04

I knew the playbook. I knew what was expected

30:06

of me from my teachers and parents

30:09

to be successful. And so

30:12

it was a game, I could pay attention in

30:14

class, I kind of was efficient at studying,

30:16

a new homework can easy to me. I was very

30:18

efficient and studious and absorbed,

30:20

whatever. And then I had to regurgitate the test on

30:22

paper and that was easy

30:25

to me for whatever reason. It wasn't

30:27

challenging. I was a product of

30:29

my environment and my socialization and culture.

30:31

I wasn't me. I mean, I was

30:33

me and I was, you know, I was still there, but I wasn't

30:36

fully me because I was

30:38

unconsciously being programmed

30:41

to fit the mold and

30:43

do the playbook because that was

30:45

going to be the most successful thing.

30:47

So, what would you have done if

30:50

you hadn't read this book, do you think? What

30:52

would Eric be doing now?

30:54

I don't know because there's obviously no

30:56

shortage of authors and artists

30:58

and musicians and jesters and other works

31:00

that are poking at and critiquing

31:03

the status quo. Maybe

31:05

it was alive in me in some way that would have come

31:07

out in other ways or whatnot. And maybe

31:10

I would have gone to university and gone down that path

31:12

and would have been like a lot

31:14

of post-grads who end up with a degree

31:16

and they're still not sure what they want to do with themselves.

31:19

I embraced the uncertainty a lot

31:21

earlier. It's almost like I had my midlife crisis

31:23

at 17.

31:25

I'm still picturing you rushing into

31:27

class the day afterwards full

31:29

of enthusiasm. And then the reaction

31:31

to that. What happened to your

31:33

friendship group and what did your family make of

31:35

this?

31:36

Yeah. My parents were

31:38

a bit worried. My mom was worried. I

31:40

think I adopted the poor me thing. Like I felt

31:42

really alone. I felt disconnected

31:44

from the friend groups

31:47

and people in my whole life that I had

31:49

built my identity around. I literally

31:51

felt like I didn't want

31:53

to be a part of that anymore. It wasn't leading

31:55

me to where I authentically

31:58

was maybe destined to go. I mean, I didn't use

32:00

that language back then, but, yeah,

32:02

I, I felt alone. I definitely found new

32:04

friends that I could philosophize

32:07

with and talk about stuff and have some

32:09

more intellectual conversations about society

32:12

and school. And I shifted

32:14

gears. I stopped caring about grades. Grades

32:16

were dead to me. Just didn't

32:18

matter because I didn't need or want that external

32:21

validation from a teacher. And so

32:23

if I wasn't into an assignment and it didn't feel

32:25

aligned with me, I didn't want to do it. And that's

32:27

probably why I'm unschooling my kids now. Right?

32:30

yeah. What does unschooling look like for

32:32

them?

32:33

Well, our kids are four, seven and

32:35

nine. And so, only

32:38

in the last year or so do we

32:40

feel like our oldest

32:42

might need a bit more

32:44

or we can structure our day to

32:46

give him more support to nourish

32:50

his inner spark and

32:52

curiosity and interest because under

32:54

the age of seven, if I was to pick a arbitrary

32:58

age cutoff, seven and under. Play

33:00

play, play, play play is what we value,

33:02

play is the work of a child, and

33:05

so much learning is happening through

33:07

play. So my wife started

33:09

and founded a forest school, which is an

33:11

outdoor experiential type

33:14

space for kids to be in a group. It's

33:16

mostly unstructured free play.

33:18

We love just giving space for our kids to play.

33:21

And unschooling is going

33:23

to shift and change for us a little bit as

33:25

we get into the middle years of our kids

33:27

now. August is going to be 10 next year and

33:29

so it's going to shift a little bit for him

33:31

when it's not gonna be the same as what it has been

33:33

so far.

33:34

It strikes me how intentionally

33:37

you're going about this and again, the reflectiveness

33:40

really comes through. You said that

33:42

you were kind of a a unplanned dad and you were pretty

33:44

frank about that. How did your life change

33:47

as a result of that and did that all

33:49

start immediately. Tell me about that, if you

33:51

don't mind?

33:52

Yeah. I mean, I've made up a YouTube video

33:54

on it. There was a mountain love

33:56

story contest. And so I

33:58

shared our story

34:01

of, you know, conceiving a child

34:03

and not planning it.

34:05

The long and short of it is I had just gotten out of

34:07

a different relationship, move to this mountain town Fernie,

34:10

no plans to commit to another relationship

34:12

anytime soon or in the near term. But

34:15

I met Courtney and we had a great time

34:17

and had a connection, enjoyed our winter

34:19

together. And then I was off galavanting around,

34:22

working down in the states, doing some river

34:24

trip work. And when we reconvene

34:26

that following fall, we picked

34:28

up where we left off with our attraction and

34:31

connection, and we conceived a child

34:33

by it, unplanned and Courtney thought she

34:35

couldn't get pregnant. That was incorrect

34:38

and that's more than okay. It

34:40

was obviously a huge pivotal

34:43

moment. I was 25

34:45

years old when I found out, 26 when

34:47

I became a dad and I was just

34:50

120% on board with whatever

34:52

Courtney wanted to do with her decision for

34:54

that situation. For whatever reason,

34:56

I have this deep acceptance of even if

34:58

we could no longer be together in

35:00

a relationship, I was going to show up for that kid

35:02

and make sure I took responsibility

35:04

for my actions. I don't know. I just felt called

35:06

to do that. So I wasn't worried.

35:09

No matter what direction or

35:11

what came of that situation. I knew

35:13

that everything would work out and Courtney

35:16

bless her heart. I love my partner so much.

35:18

She also operates from this deep trust

35:21

of like, everything can work out, everything's

35:23

going to work out. So we both operate

35:26

from this lens and we subconsciously always

35:28

come back to that anchor point, like everything's

35:30

going to work out. And so that's

35:32

the premise we started our family

35:34

Can I ask you a bit about paramedicine

35:37

work? That seems important. What's it like

35:39

being a first responder in a tight

35:41

knit community?

35:43

Yeah. I think it's easier being

35:45

a paramedic in a small town than a big urban

35:47

environment. I'm in rural BC, a town

35:50

of 5,000 people. There's back

35:52

roads that are named after families

35:54

that I have helped their grandparents.

35:56

Their aging grandparents are the ones

35:58

that maybe they or their grandparents, the roads are named

36:00

after them. So you get

36:02

to see a lot of the same faces.

36:04

I mean, We're not a tiny town of like 500

36:07

people. you know, There's people that we don't know in this

36:09

community. But it was a very

36:11

rewarding job. It was flexible hours.

36:13

I could work as many or as little shifts as I wanted,

36:16

and that played a key role

36:18

in our lifestyle because we loved

36:21

our mountain town lifestyle more

36:24

than just the careers we were doing and having.

36:26

And so paramedicine, the way the schedule

36:28

worked out here was I could work

36:31

30 days in a row or I could work three days and

36:33

have 10 off. So I could do what

36:35

I wanted and that helped design

36:37

the lifestyle we wanted.

36:39

So tell me about what you really like about that

36:41

lifestyle and the community where you're living

36:43

and the landscape. What can you share about

36:45

it for someone who maybe hasn't experienced

36:48

that?

36:48

Mountain life is slower.

36:51

It's got movement built in

36:53

as a value for most people. You

36:55

can go for a walk along the river

36:57

and the trails or the forest, or you can

36:59

go trail running or mountain biking

37:01

up every mountain we're surrounded by mountains.

37:04

So not only do you have this awe

37:07

and this awesomeness that's the

37:09

nature around us. You can also

37:11

play and interact on the mountains and with

37:13

the mountains. You can just go

37:15

for a 45 minute bike ride before you start

37:17

work. It snows 20 centimeters and the shops

37:20

are closed because the shop owners and staff want

37:22

to go ski the powder. I've been to Costa Rica

37:24

too, that pura vida. It's this idea of working

37:27

to live and not living to work. A

37:29

lot of people are here for the lifestyle,

37:31

not just to make a ton of money

37:33

and maybe have a big career.

37:35

I love the facility you have for words, and how

37:37

you package these thoughts up and I'm just

37:40

reflecting on what you said before, play is the

37:42

work of a child and right

37:44

at the start, you said that you wanted to play while

37:46

still working. Is the content creation

37:48

play, or is it a lot of work? Sometimes

37:50

what happens to content creators is there's

37:53

a lot of burnout there and I'm curious about

37:55

that.

37:55

Yeah. I'm being mindful of that.

37:58

And I'm kind of catching myself

38:00

in a phase of checking in again of,

38:02

well, how much time do I really want to spend

38:04

in an office editing? I'm also realizing

38:06

like if I'm not eating that well, and then I don't

38:08

sleep as well, I come into the office and

38:11

I'm not nearly as efficient with my time as

38:13

I could be. There's lots of stuff

38:15

that as an entrepreneur, as a freelance,

38:17

creative working for myself, you

38:19

know, maybe I build in my

38:22

schedule that day is like, I got the kids

38:24

for three hours in the morning and Courtney is doing something that

38:26

she needs to do or wants to do. And then I got

38:28

my afternoon, I get in the office

38:30

and then sometimes I'm not in my creative flow,

38:32

I don't feel like editing, but that was my five

38:34

hours where I kinda need to. And I

38:36

feel like any creative out there can relate to that.

38:39

I'm having some success monetizing since April

38:41

and the moment that I can outsource

38:44

some editing work. I'm going to do

38:46

that. That makes sense for me. But

38:49

I'm excited winter's coming around the corner and no time,

38:51

and I'm going to be not ski patrolling for the first

38:53

time in 14 winters. And I'm going

38:55

to be a full-time YouTuber. Our winter

38:57

ski content has the most eyeballs and

39:00

I'm going to triple down next winter.

39:02

And I want to be efficient with my editing

39:04

and also feed the

39:06

YouTube algorithm machine as much content

39:09

as I can.

39:10

Where do you see yourself going with it, but

39:12

also what does success look like along the way?

39:14

Because it's not just the outcome.

39:16

yeah, success for me is

39:18

being able to sustain our

39:21

necessary living through

39:23

this. And so by that metric, I'm

39:25

successful. It's working. It's only

39:27

been three or four months, so there's

39:29

going to be some uncertainty and

39:31

maybe months or stretches that are a little bit

39:34

leaner than other times. I want

39:36

to just continue refining my

39:39

messages and our

39:41

values and be able to articulate

39:43

and tell stories in

39:45

a more effective way that can

39:47

really impact and inspire others.

39:49

I feel like much of what I'm doing is

39:52

telling a story, telling my

39:54

story, documenting a story. And

39:56

based on the feedback I've gotten from some followers

39:59

and comments and DMS, there's a lot

40:01

of people getting value from the stories

40:03

that I'm sharing and telling. That motivates

40:06

me to keep going. I just built a recent website

40:08

with some help of the two people that are helping

40:10

me with my business backend. And I want my

40:12

website and my YouTube channel to be a source

40:15

of family and parenting inspiration

40:18

for all things outdoor and maybe

40:20

adventure travel as well. And so I'm

40:23

really excited, where, you know, I feel like my family

40:25

is going to get a bunch of opportunities that we probably never

40:27

would've had before, with even international

40:29

trips and all sorts of adventures

40:32

that could be really cool. Continue

40:35

experimenting, weaving more meaningful

40:39

conversations into my content around

40:41

unschooling. really poking that bear a bit,

40:43

the modern day schooling assumption of, if

40:46

you don't teach your kids top down, they're

40:48

not going to be successful. I have all the

40:50

faith in the world that my children are going to be well-rounded

40:53

individuals that know who they are and are going to

40:56

have skills and the ability to learn whatever they

40:58

need to learn, to pursue whatever they want to pursue.

41:00

And at the end of the day, I feel like every parent wants that

41:02

for their kids. My kids are only gonna be

41:04

young and cute for so long and the

41:07

internet finds that adorable. But

41:09

I know that I have more of a message

41:11

and meaning that I want to keep telling stories

41:14

about.

41:15

I'm coming back to how articulate your

41:17

daughter comes across in the videos where

41:19

you have her miked up. In one of them she asks

41:21

if you can carry her so she has more energy

41:24

for the turns on the ski slope. How

41:27

conscious and how involved

41:29

is she with her role in the way you're documenting

41:31

your family adventures?

41:34

Yeah. I think I really started making videos

41:36

when she was a baby. And so she knows

41:38

that daddy makes videos. That's a part of our lifestyle

41:41

and you know, the camera's not

41:43

in their face 24 7. I'm mindful

41:46

and I'm grateful that the camera is not

41:48

on more than it is

41:50

off. If that makes sense. Yes.

41:52

I'm documenting a lot of our outings and

41:54

days, but like at the end of the day, there's

41:56

story time and puzzle time and

41:58

we're coloring and we're biking around the neighborhood

42:00

at night. And I don't bring a camera or a phone. And,

42:03

l love that I'm mindful of that. The kids don't watch

42:05

the Instagram short clips

42:07

or the Tik Toks. They have no idea about

42:10

views or likes or followers.

42:12

What we tell them is daddy makes videos and some

42:15

people like watching them or daddy

42:17

make videos, and this is his job.

42:19

And we're really grateful we get to do this together

42:22

as a family. And she

42:24

knows no different.

42:25

I wonder You said some people

42:28

like the videos, do you ever get any pushback or

42:30

negative responses from people about the

42:32

ideas? What does that look like and where does

42:34

it come from?

42:35

biggest pushback or the most common

42:38

form of it is just in terms

42:40

of risk. There are people out there that deem

42:42

what I'm doing is unacceptable

42:44

and totally inappropriate for

42:46

the safety of the child and that I'm possibly

42:49

even doing it for the views. And

42:51

Knowing myself, the

42:53

videos are truly documentative

42:56

in nature. And, for example, our two year old,

42:58

all of our kids at two skied off polar peak

43:00

at Fernie Alpine resort. So it's the top of the mountain.

43:03

And I always did it in spring and

43:05

it's almost like a Rite of passage in our family and

43:07

I did it with August when I didn't make

43:09

videos. I think I had Luca, maybe he was

43:11

three and I filmed it but I was already

43:14

doing these like by some people's standards

43:16

seem crazy things or outrageous

43:18

things. It's just who we are. I've

43:20

learned that a lot of people who are out there creating and doing

43:23

big things, or just following their hearts, they're

43:25

not doing it without ruffling some feathers

43:27

in some way, shape or form. I'm not

43:29

actively looking to be confrontational, but

43:32

at the end, you're never going to be able to please everybody. So

43:34

when Attia went viral, her stuff

43:36

got picked up on ESPN, CNN,

43:39

and Barstool sports on Instagram.

43:41

And when you started reading the comments

43:44

of the viral pages that picked

43:46

up my pages, I started reading

43:48

them and I feel like 90%

43:50

of them were overwhelmingly positive.

43:52

And then there was a good 10% of like, this

43:54

is ridiculous. This is outrageous.

43:56

I can't believe people are celebrating this,

43:58

like this dad should be in jail. Like You get all sorts of

44:00

stuff.

44:01

I can see in your videos people

44:03

who meet up with you on the slopes

44:05

and being inspired by

44:08

your content to go outside

44:10

and have their own adventures. What's the

44:12

most surprising thing

44:15

that's come out of this for you so far?

44:17

One of our income streams right now is to

44:20

go on trips and document

44:22

our adventures. And so we'll partner

44:25

with a tourism organization, predominantly,

44:27

are the ones who have a marketing budget

44:29

and they're going to spend it on

44:31

professional videos on Facebook ads

44:34

on traditional marketing. And then they're also

44:36

going to allocate some of it to social media,

44:39

influencer marketing. So we get

44:41

to now go on trips with

44:43

restaurant food budgets. The

44:45

cocktails are included on them if we want

44:48

a lot of the time. We're kind

44:50

of getting wined and dined and hosted as

44:52

a family at these resorts. Our lifestyle

44:55

is around doing these adventurous, outdoor

44:58

things where it doesn't cost

45:00

that much money because it's integrated into our lifestyle

45:02

and it's our value. Whereas I feel like

45:04

if you're working and you get

45:06

vacation weeks, you're working a career in

45:09

an urban environment and you enjoy

45:11

the mountains and mountain biking or skiing, then

45:13

you're going to be the one to go and spend

45:16

a week at a resort at a hotel and

45:18

buy the tickets. We could even really afford

45:20

to travel and go experience these things

45:23

that costs a lot of money to do.

45:25

So now with

45:27

that mountain life, having a following, we get to go experience

45:29

a lot of cool things in our outdoor

45:32

niche and in our traveling

45:34

interests that we never would've had before.

45:37

Was there a moment when you kind of kick back and went,

45:39

Hey, this is working?

45:40

It's really just recently, the last

45:43

few months where booking

45:45

a few trips that paid and then landing

45:47

a few new sponsorship deals. Cause in the

45:49

world of social media influencing, what's

45:52

really prevalent is, Hey, we'll

45:54

give you our product for free

45:56

and you make a video and you use it as

45:58

you see fit. And oftentimes there's no obligation,

46:01

no set amount of deliverables and content you

46:03

have to make. It doesn't help me buy

46:05

groceries or pay the mortgage. And I

46:08

don't just want endless amounts of stuff

46:10

in our house. So this spring and summer, we've been

46:12

successful at being able to pay

46:14

the mortgage and buy groceries and

46:16

cover our costs as a freelance

46:18

creative, and it's working and I have a team

46:20

of two people, Katie and will, I'm

46:22

so grateful. They're a business to business,

46:25

backend automation. They help people

46:27

become more efficient with all their business

46:30

issues on the backend. And they're

46:32

SEO experts, and they're really good at what

46:34

they do. So they're helping me with

46:36

the backend and a good chunk of my monthly

46:38

cashflow is going towards them, but it's all

46:40

going to help me hopefully build a

46:42

more sustainable website and business

46:45

and profit model where we can generate

46:47

some income. YouTube it's like writing a book.

46:49

You make a YouTube. Nobody watches

46:52

it. But three years later, all of a sudden people are watching

46:54

videos you made three years ago. And

46:56

now that video has made you a hundred dollars

46:58

and I didn't get paid at cent

47:01

when I made it. Right. So it's it's pretty

47:03

cool.

47:04

I'm interested how you think about

47:06

filling your cup now, given that your

47:08

lifestyle is also your work.

47:11

What do you do to fill your cup?

47:13

That's a really great question and something I'm actually

47:15

working on with my own life coach right now.

47:18

I've just had this realization, that much

47:20

of what I do, even for my own

47:22

time and recreation, I'm always

47:25

on, right? Like I'm on.

47:27

I enjoy playing poker and

47:30

that's not a very relaxing game. It's

47:32

a very mentally intense game.

47:34

Same with going mountain biking or skiing.

47:37

You're just physically, always doing something.

47:39

And I've never had a problem in filling

47:41

my own cup in terms of doing some

47:43

recreation activities to do what I want

47:45

to do, but I'm just realizing how

47:47

I need to and want to pay

47:50

attention to being off,

47:52

just as a doer and as a provider

47:54

and as a dad. You can tell by how I talk.

47:56

I'm a zestful ball of energy

47:59

and wouldn't change that

48:01

for the world, but I need to make

48:03

sure I'm able to turn off and I'm

48:05

working on that.

48:07

You mentioned poker and I have to go on

48:09

that tangent for a moment. What do you like

48:11

about that?

48:12

The hardest game I've ever played.

48:15

It's a game that's taught me a lot about myself because

48:17

you can do all the right things

48:20

and lose in the short term and have a negative

48:22

outcome. Or you can do all the wrong

48:24

things and get rewarded in the short term. And

48:26

that psychologically and

48:28

emotionally is really challenging

48:31

.To be successful at poker you

48:34

have to be disciplined and patient, and

48:36

you have to do all

48:38

the little things right for a long enough time.

48:40

You need a big enough sample size. Everyone

48:43

gets the same cards. It's a strategy

48:45

game. In many ways. I feel like it's a microcosm

48:47

of capitalism. You know, love it or hate it.

48:49

It's definitely has its downsides, but it's

48:51

a game. And it's played with adults

48:53

who are consenting to play this game with money

48:55

and the chips and money are, how you keep score. And

48:58

I've just really have been gravitated to poker

49:01

because of how challenging it is.

49:03

I used to play chess as a kid. And when I found poker,

49:06

I was like, oh, this is even harder. Emotionally

49:08

and mentally, maybe not strategically wise, but there's

49:11

that emotional aspect.

49:13

Do you take any of those lessons into

49:15

other parts of your life that you've learned

49:17

from poker?

49:18

I think I, did because I do,

49:20

because I, in philosophy in high school, I remember

49:22

I wrote a paper on the similarities between poker

49:25

and life and risk for sure

49:27

is in that and also outcomes

49:29

like showing up in the ring and doing your

49:31

best and then still losing. Realizing

49:34

that you can come back the next day or take

49:36

a break and you still got to show up.

49:39

Again, poker's a game of mistakes and, you know, he

49:41

who makes the least mistakes, the chips

49:43

come they're way more, but in

49:45

the short term, the chips can go anyone's way and

49:47

you gotta put in the effort and it show up

49:50

time and time again. Poker is almost a meditative

49:53

thing for me too. I'm so in the moment and in the

49:55

zone, it feels like

49:57

time flies when I'm playing poker,

49:59

in a live game paying attention to people's

50:01

nuances and their behaviors and just

50:03

watching. And then I've also learned a lot about life

50:06

at the poker table just having conversations with people

50:08

about their careers or what they do, and

50:10

just the chit chat and the table talk

50:12

of hanging out with a bunch of other humans. It's

50:15

a really neat environment that I really enjoy. And I feel

50:17

like poker is going to be a part of my life as a recreation,

50:20

as in a serious recreational player for

50:22

many years to come.

50:24

Amazing. I'm so glad I asked about that.

50:26

I liked this phrase you use as well about showing

50:28

up, and I hear that in your videos as well.

50:30

It's about how kids

50:33

are going to show up in life. Is

50:35

that an important idea to you?

50:37

Yeah. I mean, for me showing up is related

50:39

to getting in the ring and doing

50:42

and trying. And again, that's like something

50:44

Gary V talks about.

50:46

If you're aimlessly unsure about

50:48

what direction you want to go in life,

50:50

It's easy to sit there and scroll,

50:53

especially like maybe even in your early twenties or

50:55

as a young adult or at any phase in your life,

50:58

I feel like there's a lot of value that comes

51:01

from doing and just showing

51:03

up. If you're doing a new task and committed

51:05

to starting a business or content creation, you

51:07

have to show up regularly to do that.

51:09

It's not even going to the gym, you got to show

51:12

up three times a week at least to get

51:14

any of those results. I equate that to, you know,

51:16

teaching my kids how to ride a bike. We would do

51:18

five minutes a day for learning how to

51:20

peddle bike for 12 days or 10 days. And

51:22

then they were off, they figured it out, right. Because

51:25

you just showed up consistently. It's

51:27

the 10,000 hours thing. Anything

51:29

you show up for consistently,

51:31

you're going to become more proficient at,

51:33

and if you're not sure, it's your thing, at least

51:36

you're learning that it, wasn't your thing by showing

51:38

up.

51:39

You're doing the paramedicine stuff.

51:41

You going great guns with the content

51:43

work. What are you focusing

51:45

on at the moment?

51:46

Personally, I'm doubling down on unschooling.

51:50

I'm really enjoying listening to other podcasts,

51:52

talking about unschooling and

51:55

alternative ways of learning for

51:57

families and kids. I want to,

51:59

I think, learn a little bit more about some

52:01

of the acadamia and even

52:03

the psychology and some

52:06

of the science, what some of the professionals are starting

52:08

to point at in terms of best

52:10

practices for how people learn and

52:12

how kids learn. It's no

52:14

surprise that I think our schooling institutions

52:16

of today are going to be slow

52:18

movers to adjust, even when

52:21

there's significant evidence that, Hey,

52:23

you know, actually people learn best not

52:25

sitting down for six hours a day. I want to

52:27

keep exploring and learning a bit more about that.

52:29

And then also experimenting with telling

52:32

stories about our unschooling

52:34

journey in our content. So that's something

52:36

that's on the forefront of my mind.

52:39

It's certainly the unschooling conversation

52:41

that has connected us. I

52:43

have all these conversations with people about

52:46

experiential learning and schooling

52:48

and alternative education, but those

52:50

conversations are often quite theoretical

52:52

and scholarly. There's something

52:54

about the physicality of what you're doing

52:56

and just seeing it there and seeing your

52:58

kids. It just communicates

53:00

all that in a much more direct and

53:03

relatable way.

53:04

Awesome. Thanks for that. Yeah.

53:05

So that leads me into my last question, which is

53:07

what I ask everyone who comes on the podcast.

53:10

If you could gift someone a life-changing

53:13

learning experience, what would

53:15

it be and why?

53:16

It would be related to not

53:19

being afraid to follow

53:21

your heart. As cliche

53:23

as that sounds, I think in a more concrete way,

53:26

it's directly related to not

53:28

being afraid of what other people

53:31

will think of you. That

53:33

life lesson for me, hands down

53:35

has unlocked a power and

53:38

my gifts, it's connected me to my authenticity

53:40

and to not be afraid to be me

53:42

and follow what's in my heart.

53:45

That is a great answer. When you

53:47

were talking about that you didn't

53:49

need grades, you didn't

53:51

need external validation from

53:53

a teacher and the freeing sense

53:55

of that, it seems to be really connected to

53:57

this idea of unschooling, cause grades

54:00

seem to be about that weight and

54:02

that burden of external validation

54:05

and commodifying the soul.

54:07

It's been a wonderful conversation with

54:09

you, Erich. I'm so glad we had the chance to chat.

54:11

no, It's a pleasure. This is a enjoyable

54:13

conversation and I love hearing about

54:15

what you're up to with your platform and

54:17

exploring curiosity. I think

54:19

it's really valuable and, yeah, I hope

54:21

that we might be able to connect or work

54:23

on something together in the future in some way,

54:25

shape or form to with whatever uh, you

54:27

build up.

54:28

I feel that way too and I

54:30

hope that will be the case, whatever it turns out

54:33

to be. Thank you so much for the conversation.

54:35

It's been great connecting with you and all

54:37

the best with the coming winter. I hope

54:39

that gives you everything that you

54:41

want it to with your content creation.

54:43

I look forward to

54:45

Awesome. Thanks Danu.