0:01

Head over to Hulu this March where our new

0:03

shows and movies will keep you streaming all month

0:05

long. Catch the award-winning

0:07

movie Poor Things starring Emma Stone, Mark

0:10

Ruffalo and Willem Dafoe. Check

0:12

out the new documentary Freakneak, The Wildest

0:15

Party Never Told about the iconic Atlanta

0:17

Street party. And

0:19

Don't Miss FX's Shogun, a reimagining

0:21

of the epic tale starring Anna

0:23

Sawai. So...what

0:26

are you waiting for? Go stream something new

0:28

on Hulu. ACAS

0:32

powers the world's best podcasts.

0:36

Here's a show that we recommend. Hi,

0:40

I'm Dori Schaffreier and along with Kate

0:42

Spencer, I host Forever 35, a podcast

0:44

about the things we do to take

0:46

care of ourselves. Join us

0:49

every Wednesday with guests like author

0:51

Phoebe Robinson, Chef Semine Nosrat, actress

0:53

Busy Phillips and even former

0:55

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. On

0:58

Mondays and Fridays, we have

1:00

mini episodes where we answer listeners' questions

1:02

on everyday problems like how useful a butt

1:04

mask really is, how to deal with a

1:06

petty friend or how to relax after a long

1:08

day. So join us Monday,

1:11

Wednesday and Friday on Forever 35 where we're

1:13

not experts, but we are two friends who

1:15

like to talk a lot about serums. ACAS

1:21

helps creators launch, grow and

1:24

monetize their podcasts everywhere.

1:26

acast.com. Lovely

2:00

to just talk to my mother a bit

2:02

about our crazy life. It

2:04

was really lovely actually because you just

2:06

don't take that time. It's

2:08

what we're making today. We are making... When I

2:11

say we, I'm going to be very famous

2:13

at this. I have hardly had anything to

2:15

do with cooking today. So, rambell and chili

2:17

and now cinnamon have been holding down the

2:20

kitchen like... Yeah, absolutely. And

2:23

someone very important is coming round. Jay Rayner,

2:25

a colleague of mother's on Radio 4's kitchen

2:27

cabinet. My friend and a very good friend

2:29

of mum's. So, she's a little bit... I

2:31

think she's just a little bit... She wants

2:33

things right, so Jay. I'm going

2:35

to ask you this, kids, first. We

2:37

know what happens when chefs come round. So, is it

2:40

the same for some critics? Is mum in the same

2:42

space? It's definitely...

2:44

Yeah, I know that thing. What is this

2:46

space? What is this space? It's a little jittery.

2:49

A little honest. My

2:52

colleagues are coming round. My peers. I kept

2:54

calling Jay a chef actually today. And

2:57

I was like, he is not a chef, he's the

2:59

food critic of the nation. So, we have had chefs

3:01

and it would be really nice to talk to him

3:03

about the nuance of that, because he has a completely

3:06

different job. I've noticed a pattern.

3:08

When it is chefs or peers,

3:11

you reach for the soul food. Yes. You know you can

3:13

do it in the rest of the world. Yes,

3:15

absolutely. Absolutely. I

3:17

love it. I love

3:19

that there's no point, you know, Tommy Batson, Paul

3:21

Aza's going on. No point trying to do the

3:23

fancy shmancy, that kind of fancy. I'm going to

3:25

hit you where it hurts. Do

3:28

you know what I mean? You've got to hit them in the

3:30

belly. And so with that in mind, what have we got? We're

3:32

making plantain and coconut fungi, because I don't

3:34

think Jay's ever had fungi, so I really

3:36

wanted to introduce him to fungi. We've

3:39

got stout-raised oxtail. We're

3:41

having Friday Night White, because he's a food

3:43

critic. I just feel like a bit of

3:45

a fool giving him some sort

3:47

of red cocktail. I was just like, let's

3:50

just get you some Barolo, some Flurry,

3:52

some Pinot Noir, and you take your picture right

3:54

now. Someone's on their tippy toes about Jay,

3:56

right? Yeah, me too. Do you

3:59

know what? I just wanted

4:01

to be happy. They're coming all the way from Star's

4:03

Landing. It's quite far. It's a big

4:05

ship. We tried to get some important work, but it

4:07

took too long to get them here. So they're finally

4:09

coming. And I just wanted to

4:12

be right. What made? So

4:16

finally... Welcome to

4:18

Star's Landing. Welcome to our house. It's the

4:21

second time round. You've been on kitchen cabinet for ten

4:23

years. If we can get to you. Because

4:25

you're very busy. If you've heard

4:28

that you invented her, I think you should be

4:30

able to get her. I said don't speak to

4:32

him. I said don't speak

4:34

to him. I didn't invent

4:36

Andy Oliver. But I do think the

4:38

brilliant thing about the kitchen cabinet is

4:40

that he's a fantastic launch pad. And

4:42

there's so many people from it. You've

4:44

already had four or five careers before

4:46

that. But I do think people

4:48

did hear you on that and go... It's

4:50

Jane. If you

4:53

could find space in your diet. That would be

4:55

really great. Right. Let me just

4:57

get this out of my mind. So

4:59

stout braised oxtails, Guinness braised

5:01

oxtails, stout braised oxtails, oxtails and butter

5:03

beans. Which is the kind of classic things.

5:06

The oxtails and butter beans. But

5:08

we use Guinness for loads of butter and do the thing. And

5:11

then we've made fungi. Which

5:13

I'm always wanging on about in the kitchen cabinet. And

5:15

you've never had it. So

5:17

I've made planted and coated up fungi with fried plantain

5:19

and crispy onions. And then we've

5:21

got just butter braised leeks with crispy leeks

5:24

and leek oil. I think mum wanted to

5:26

see Breath of Your Souls. I was right.

5:28

It's the end of a long week. It's

5:30

been really cold. You need food that, you

5:32

know... That's a sharing destroying... Yes

5:34

it is. Well

5:36

not for all of us, Jane. We'd

5:39

like to talk now about my dribbling,

5:41

my thought dribbling. Oh, you would trip

5:43

for that? If you'd trip for

5:45

dribbling. Well, it comes in the family as well because

5:47

mum was the same. You

5:50

would never get to the end of a meal without something down her

5:52

throat. And when Jane and I

5:54

went on honeymoon to Italy 350 years ago, it became

5:56

a running joke. that

6:00

you never got to the end of the meal. You

6:02

bought loads of new shirts to go away with. You didn't

6:04

get to the end of a single meal. I feel

6:06

like it's a sign of a meal well enjoyed. Yeah,

6:09

you got to spin there. Yeah. Well,

6:11

clearly I hate my food. Big up, not actually.

6:13

You need that for me. Can I ask

6:15

you a question? Because of your wonderful

6:17

job as Britain's most loved food critic.

6:19

Yeah, keep it going. Beloved,

6:24

respected, powerful. Powerful work

6:26

to do. Powerful. Faf, fave. Sorry,

6:30

faf, fave. That's why I'm living here. I

6:33

imagine you have to eat publicly a lot. I

6:35

imagine you get quite a bit of attention. So I would

6:37

always be like on my left. I love it. But

6:41

I mean, then you not dribble or do you not

6:43

give a shit? Again, I will turn to Pat.

6:46

So in restaurants, do I dribble, Pat?

6:49

Yeah. In a word, yeah. I

6:53

mean, you don't dribble. Actually, let's get it.

6:55

It's flash. It's not dribble. It's

6:58

the dropping of the food. I think it's all to

7:00

do with enthusiasm. Are you always plus one? No,

7:02

God, no. Hardly ever. I'm not welcome

7:04

on most reviews actually. Because I behave

7:06

badly, because I won't play the game,

7:09

which is to be a little passive

7:11

aggressive with the waiters when they ask

7:13

you how things are. If you have

7:15

to say fine. And I understand why,

7:17

because he cannot give. And I don't

7:19

have to. But unfortunately,

7:21

he's my husband. And I

7:23

find it rude. Whereas

7:25

other people who go with Jay think, oh, this is cool.

7:27

It's all part of the game. And you're like, that's all

7:29

she's wearing now. How the hell did you meet? Because you

7:31

have been married all together since 1987? Together

7:34

since 87. Together since 87. Married

7:37

in 92. That is nearly my

7:39

whole life. Yeah. How

7:41

are things going? Not to be honest. It's

7:44

almost nearly I. Yeah, you must have

7:46

been babies and just. No, I really wasn't.

7:48

But it's harder than he is. Oh,

7:51

oh, not you, Jennifer. Okay.

7:54

Not quite a bit. Yeah, quite a

7:56

bit. So he was 20 when we met and I was 24.

7:59

So I think that's. The point is the same

8:01

thing: Mom and another are barely out of

8:03

here with. Us a

8:05

man and seventy three months ago. so

8:08

I mean the sun went down child

8:10

I woke up a bad as it

8:12

leaves wherever they were both that universe

8:14

say I was doing as a postgraduate

8:16

teaching thought he was and his final

8:18

year. And a half

8:20

size. He absolutely took my breath

8:23

away. Now who who teeth? I

8:25

saw him from across a room.

8:27

Siege pounds. He walked in and

8:29

he was. I have to said

8:31

he was. A.

8:35

As he had to sit of classic

8:37

eighties tennis too thin piece of full

8:39

blood had a sudden need. had a

8:42

hey it was great He was in

8:44

a massive great Coach Fedora rings on

8:46

a train or rings on Was thinking

8:48

and if Morteza came says no I'm

8:51

with system I phone. Number of

8:53

the story of a wedding day is a good one. Must

8:57

be! So we were getting married a

8:59

Marvin Registry office a few days before

9:01

our wedding to Ninety Two. I'd interviewed

9:03

a right cunt Kinky Friedman. last great

9:05

A was a country my something arena

9:07

and erector set to mobile. The rounds

9:09

are not the I was around a

9:11

lot that time and they took to

9:13

do the and to be that hides

9:16

his classic car for me to interview

9:18

him and Potassium era tough or who

9:20

was so cool I books one of

9:22

their cars. And nineteen Fifty six

9:24

Pink Cadillac. oh and on the

9:26

day classes with for the other

9:28

rubbish spend the driver saying the

9:31

system of lot of picked up

9:33

a wedding couple and they've been

9:35

putting other friends forever. Practical test

9:37

to cover a full member of

9:40

that the said islam. As.

9:42

As beautiful Msu limits of of thing

9:44

pulls up we get in and we

9:46

settle somewhere in the remote from a

9:48

we settle forty five minutes early. We

9:50

are often early to things and we

9:52

get as far as Victoria. Massive.

9:55

Traffic on a Saturday. cost of still.

9:58

at which point we discover it is the

10:00

first Euro gay pride. Oh my

10:02

God. And London is

10:04

gridlocked. And

10:06

we are in a pink Cadillac.

10:09

And there were various points as

10:12

we pulled through this traffic at

10:14

glacial speed, people would see the

10:16

pink Cadillac and they would blow their whistles and then look

10:18

in and spot one of each. At one

10:20

point in Hyde Park, I got out of the car and

10:22

ran to the police car and said, can you help us?

10:24

It's our wedding night. So the thing to remember is that

10:28

it's just before mobile phones. Of

10:30

course. So you can't even call people and say, we're

10:32

on the way. We're there. No way. And

10:35

we were really late. 40

10:38

minutes to your own wedding. To our

10:40

own wedding. The saving grace was, and

10:43

I'm just gonna give this context. My

10:45

late mother was very fucking famous. My

10:47

mother was Claire Rayner. And if you've

10:49

never heard of her, have a

10:51

look at a Wiki page. Cause it's all accurate. Yeah,

10:53

we'll be talking about her. All right. Okay.

10:56

She basically went to the

10:58

registrar. We had the last slot and said,

11:00

you are not leaving until my son and

11:02

his bride are married. And they waved my

11:04

gun. It's Claire Rayner. You do as you

11:06

talk. Yeah. And

11:08

we agreed instead of doing standard wedding photographs,

11:10

I got a guy from the independent, cause

11:12

I was working there at the time, to

11:15

shoot it as if it was a story. Oh

11:17

no. And the first shot is us

11:19

two pelting it around the corner on

11:21

Tamara Road. Oh no, we're going. Cause we abandoned the

11:23

car just around the corner at the traffic lights. You

11:27

were like, just use the narrative that is here. We

11:29

are literally, we are running in. There's one shot before

11:31

it. There's a couple of shots before it, because all

11:33

the people waiting on the steps and

11:35

there's literally, she's got one of our

11:37

friend, Clem who was going to be one

11:39

of our witnesses. And she's standing there looking

11:42

at the distance. And I've always meant to

11:44

ask it. You did pose that, didn't you?

11:47

It's such a wistful kind of thing. You're

11:49

still waiting for the horizon. Where

11:52

the fuck are they? I don't know. They're

11:54

waiting there. So you're talking about your mum.

11:57

I was quite impressed when I went into

11:59

menopause. because I didn't... when I met you

12:01

I wasn't in menopausal. Yeah, we were going

12:03

together... Wow, that's a million years. And then

12:05

I became menopausal. I had nothing to do

12:08

with it. You were so knowledgeable about it.

12:10

I was, I. Yeah. And you said

12:12

also, because of your mum always talking about everything. So

12:14

it's just a few weeks ago, I don't know who Clarena

12:16

was, because my mum was telling me about her and

12:18

I had... How was... Agony

12:20

art doesn't really describe it, does it? No,

12:22

she was sex advice columnist, Agony art. But

12:25

she was at a time when mass

12:28

media reached

12:30

out in a way, and it was a

12:32

sort of one-way street, really. So

12:34

she was on The Sun, writing their problem page from 72

12:36

to about 82. Then

12:39

the Sunday Mirror for five years, and then

12:41

today. But she was also on TV, and

12:44

she was on TV when there were only

12:46

three channels. But she was remarkable because she

12:48

was really honest and very

12:50

direct. I mean, I remember that as a kid,

12:52

sort of being quite kind of compelled

12:54

by this whenever she was talking, because she

12:56

was telling... One of the brilliant things is,

12:58

when I met Pat, she didn't

13:01

quite know. No, I did. I did.

13:03

I just hadn't... I mean, I'm

13:05

terrible. I don't pay attention. I've never

13:07

paid attention to what's on telly on

13:09

the media, not really. She wasn't just

13:11

a sex advice columnist. She was an

13:13

amazing spokesperson for people,

13:15

for marginalised groups. I

13:18

mean, I think one of the most striking

13:20

moments actually, when she had the memorial for

13:22

her, and there was

13:24

a film of clips of her that

13:27

were put together. And the very first

13:29

one, which I'd never seen, was

13:32

from the late 60s. She's

13:34

got a beehive, and she's

13:36

talking to some kind of old

13:39

white bloke. They were just talking

13:41

about the love between gay people

13:43

in 68. I

13:45

think it must have been just when it had been

13:47

legalised or very shortly afterwards. And

13:50

she was impassioned. It was

13:52

about how wrong it is that

13:54

people shouldn't be able to love who they want.

13:57

Yeah. At 60. Only in 68 on telly. How

14:00

long it was, but you know, it's

14:03

become okay as a woman speaking that

14:05

kind of force. Yeah, that's what what

14:07

I remember is this kind of forceful

14:09

energy and nature, which I really responded to

14:11

as a kid, I kind of needed that. Yeah,

14:14

that kind of voice you want to hear, isn't

14:16

it? A young girl, a young woman, you want

14:18

to hear women who really got a voice and

14:20

take up space on their own. She was

14:22

absolutely superb. So I think I think agony on because

14:24

I think we kind of find that a sort of

14:26

almost amusing title. Yeah, well, it sounds small. And

14:31

he certainly wasn't that in her. You got

14:33

to remember, this is a time when you

14:35

had no sources of information. Yeah, sometimes you're

14:37

on talk to workers about how you couldn't

14:39

always go online and find stuff out. It's

14:42

going to be a fun computer. And you know,

14:44

a thousand people wrote in a week and 1000

14:46

people got a reply. Claire had an operation and

14:48

it was a part of her contract that

14:51

every letter would get a reply. And there

14:53

were four or five factories in the house.

14:55

The house was a hub, an industrial hub

14:57

answering people. Did you feel proud of her?

14:59

Oh, hugely. I mean, she was also annoying.

15:01

She was my mother. I mean, she's your

15:04

mum. You know, you know what that's like,

15:06

Makita. Absolutely. I'm with you, Jay. A joy.

15:08

A joy. Can I say, by the way,

15:10

this OX sales due is wonderful. It's wonderful.

15:12

If you did enter this in competition, there's

15:14

a reason for saying that. I'm taking more.

15:17

You would of course win. We had a

15:19

question this week on the kitchen camera. What

15:21

would you cook if you were cooking something

15:23

and entering into competition? And I was torn

15:25

between the curry goat and the stout

15:27

brazelots and I went with the stout brazelots. Okay.

15:30

And Jay's saying you're a winner. And he's

15:32

saying I would have won. Wow. In the

15:34

competition of upset, you know, brazelots. Just to

15:37

be clear. Hey,

15:57

I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we like

15:59

to do the opposite of what big wireless

16:01

does. They charge you a lot, we charge

16:03

you a little. So naturally, when they announced

16:05

they'd be raising their prices due to inflation,

16:08

we decided to deflate our prices due to

16:10

not hating you. That's right! We're cutting the

16:12

price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month

16:14

to just $15 a month. Give

16:18

it a try at mintmobile.com/Switch.

16:20

New activation and upfront payment for three-month plan

16:23

required. Taxes and fees extra. Additional restrictions apply.

16:25

See mintmobile.com for full terms. Can

16:45

I talk a little bit about what you

16:47

do? Because it's in academia, is it not?

16:49

I work as a commissioning editor for academic

16:52

books. So for books that

16:54

are used by researchers and

16:57

students and effectively they

16:59

are the way that researchers

17:02

publish their work and

17:04

their ideas. So I

17:06

publish in history and

17:08

archaeology, law, education,

17:11

museum studies. Is it good that you're in

17:13

such a... I mean, how many years have

17:15

you been together? 915.

17:21

915 years. It is quite interesting to

17:23

me because I'm like, how do you

17:25

do that? Because when you talk about that,

17:27

I'm not saying it's embarrassing, but whenever you

17:29

talk about that, there is a kind of

17:31

underlying constancy and connected thing

17:33

that you don't do when you talk

17:35

about other people that I find really

17:38

quite endearing. It's really, really lovely. And

17:40

I'm just amazed that you still have that after

17:42

950 years. So we do

17:45

appear to. Do you think there's a... What is

17:47

it? All right, let's be exact. Anybody's irritated by

17:49

that. Five years together, 32 years of

17:51

marriage on top. Actually, the story about

17:53

how we did eventually get together is

17:55

the story of our marriage, actually,

17:59

and why it's... interesting. So

18:01

I had been away from Leeds for

18:03

a while. I had come

18:05

in, I was doing teacher training and I've met some

18:07

new people on this teacher training. And

18:09

there were sort of these groups that all

18:12

seemed to tie up various people that I

18:14

knew. So it's mid 1980s, I

18:17

get people around for

18:19

a video night, remember that? And

18:21

when it was still exciting, pressure

18:24

and there weren't many, there was probably about six

18:26

or seven. What I didn't

18:28

know was that I had actually

18:31

cut across two groups of people who loathed

18:33

each other. I knew them

18:35

separately. They absolutely loathed each other. One

18:37

of those people was Jay's then girlfriend. So

18:39

she was one of them. Anyhow, the whole

18:42

evening was a disaster. I mean, thankfully we

18:44

had we had things to watch. But it

18:46

was it was it was silence

18:48

in the room. I didn't

18:50

know what I'd done. There was a knock at the

18:52

door. The knock at the

18:55

door was Jay. For Dora man. For

18:57

Dora man. Coming to find his girlfriend.

19:00

Right. So he walks in. It's

19:02

a tiny room. Lots of people who hate

19:04

each other pass into it. Oh no.

19:06

No one left us it. Good energy so

19:09

far. Yeah, no one left us it except on

19:11

the floor. So Jay and I

19:13

sit on the floor. And we

19:15

basically spent the next hour and a half.

19:18

We started a conversation that's been

19:20

going for 37 years. It was

19:22

just brilliant. We had a fabulous chat. And

19:24

that was it. And you know, frankly, ex-girlfriend.

19:27

Yeah, yeah. But that's interesting. Just

19:30

one conversation. You're like, I yeah,

19:32

well, it lasts about an hour and a half while

19:34

seven people watched us. Oh my God, of course you're

19:36

the only people in the hate room. We're actually talking

19:39

in the room of hate in the house of hate.

19:41

I want to talk about music. Well, that was the other

19:44

thing because what you've heard so far,

19:46

if you're listening and don't know us is there's

19:48

Raina who does that thing on Master's

19:50

and Kitchen Camera rights reviews. And there's

19:52

Pat who's an academic publisher who actually.

20:00

There's a jazzy side-pass all here. And

20:02

I don't mean because of jazz music, I mean just like,

20:05

there's a funky extra. There's a funky extra. The hugest

20:07

thing in your life that you love. Yeah.

20:10

So you did something the other day. Oh, I mean again.

20:12

Oh no, I didn't really. No, it was very sweet. Because

20:14

you walked into the green room when we were both there, I

20:16

was doing kitchen cabinet. And

20:18

you walked in and you started talking to somebody, and

20:20

Annie, Dr. Annie Gray, our dear friend and colleague, went,

20:22

there's a piano over there and he

20:24

went, Yamaha, duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh. And he literally

20:26

didn't even turn around. And he'd

20:29

walked into the room, he'd literally walked past it. And

20:31

he'd gone, a millisecond. I'm obsessed with pianos.

20:34

I know, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Mom said, you

20:36

don't get it. When he even talks about pianos,

20:38

his whole being like, I

20:40

was like, okay, tell me about it. We've

20:42

never really talked about it. All right, so I

20:44

started playing when I was, I started having

20:46

lessons when I was 10. But

20:49

one of the things we discovered when we

20:51

got together was that this

20:53

woman has a voice on her. Oh. A

20:56

proper voice. You stood not a chance. God, I'm not if

20:58

you really like something fancy, then you think they're wonderful, and

21:00

then they open them up and they can really sing. It's

21:02

like, it's over. So now, and I'm going to give the

21:04

end point now because then we can go back. We,

21:10

well, it's called the Jay Rayner sex test because it's my fault. What's

21:12

it called? The Jay Rayner? Sex test. Sex

21:14

test. That's six of us, including me. That's

21:16

six, including you. And did

21:18

you fall in love with music straight away, Jay? Because

21:20

I mean, it really does seem to be this thing that's

21:23

such a kind of massive love in your life. It doesn't

21:25

start, does it? There's

21:27

no start and finish. No. I mean,

21:29

it's just a part of it. And just to

21:31

be absolutely clear, I have this joke, which I

21:33

do at the beginning of our gigs, which is

21:35

I'm the greatest jazz pianist in Britain of all

21:37

the judges on MasterChef. It's

21:41

good because it's true. Yes. And

21:44

it was always a good line to get me through

21:46

saying, why have you come to see that bloke you've

21:48

seen on MasterChef or read in the reviews? A

21:51

lot of my development as a musician, I've got a bit

21:53

of yours as a singer because I think you were fully

21:55

formed. But you know

21:57

you weren't, all right. has

22:00

happened through the good offices of the brilliant guy and

22:02

I'm going to name check them all. Dave

22:04

Lewis on sax, Chris Copsen on

22:06

guitar, Sophie Alaway on drums, Robert

22:08

Rickenburg on bass, who have all

22:10

played, you know, Dave was John

22:12

Martin, saxophonist, Sophie Alaway

22:15

plays with Gala now, Chris Copsen is

22:17

Courtney Pines, Rob Rickenburg has played with

22:19

both the Minnows. They are brilliant and

22:21

they are astonishing and I think we

22:24

learn everything with them in

22:34

the 11 years we've been 12.

22:36

12 years. Was that a decision?

22:38

Did you start this and then cut you? How

22:40

does it story? Yeah, cool. So the story I played

22:42

for a very long time, at one point we

22:50

did a piano vocal duet thing, duo

22:52

thing, which our very kind friends paid

22:54

tickets to come and see. It

22:57

wasn't bad, I don't think. Was it

22:59

just you do that? We were just failing to

23:01

make children so we decided to do something

23:04

else. Have a creative

23:06

baby. Yeah, yeah and that was a long

23:08

time ago and I did

23:10

a night class at Goldsmith's, I was tutored

23:13

by various people. I was

23:15

on The One Show from 2009 and

23:17

I'd be live on the couch every Friday night

23:20

and then I would go into the Ivy Club,

23:22

fancy Winky West End Club, where a very old

23:24

friend of mine from University, Joe Thompson was a

23:26

house pianist and he knew

23:28

that I played and he would have

23:31

a trio on those Friday nights of a really

23:33

top of the tree musician at the Ivy Club,

23:36

the front members club and it was a great

23:38

room because you would have significant

23:40

people in there. I remember one night when

23:42

Sting was down the end of the bar,

23:44

he sent a note up the bar saying

23:47

I love what the trio is doing, the

23:50

trio played Shape of Your Heart back

23:52

at him. Oh my god, I can't

23:54

remember that. And they played it perfectly. Oh

23:56

nice. And the guitar part was Chris

23:58

who is now with us. Anyway,

24:01

the one Friday, I'd go and sit there and listen, and one

24:03

Friday night, Joe got up and said, it's your turn. I said,

24:05

what do you mean? He said, sit in. I

24:07

played the chords to all of me, and it

24:09

was all I could do, and

24:11

I was terrified, but it was brilliant. And

24:14

I wanted it again, so I went away for that

24:16

week, and I made sure I could

24:18

play both the tune and the chords, and I came out so I could

24:20

do it. And that became

24:23

the biggest part of my jazz lessons. Week after week,

24:25

I went back to that room with a new tune

24:28

that I'd learned that week. I would sit down and

24:30

I would, can I play this with other people? And

24:33

I would build a repertoire of stuff, and

24:35

I loved it. But in front of a

24:38

crowd every time? Well, maybe there'd

24:40

be 50 people in the room, and they'd like it. Maybe,

24:43

yeah, because they'd be chatting and talking.

24:46

Sometimes they'd notice. I always think

24:48

a small crowd is more difficult than a

24:51

big crowd. Yeah,

24:53

for me, that intimacy, I haven't sung

24:55

for years, but when I used to

24:57

sing a lot, 25,

25:00

30, 40 people in the room was much more terrifying, because you

25:02

could see the whites of their eyes. And then

25:04

there's a big room where there's massive lights and you

25:06

can't even see them. It had the benefit of being

25:08

a free form. It wasn't a jam, it was an

25:11

unstructured gig. And people knew

25:13

that they didn't have to pay attention. If

25:15

you made the room turn to you, that

25:17

was a thing. Then you'd done the thing, right?

25:20

Started singing with us, we didn't even

25:22

know. Yeah, I did, guys. I love it here

25:24

to stay, black coffee. That way, yeah. And

25:27

so there was performance going on. I am then asked to

25:29

do a thing called Five by 15. I don't know if

25:31

you know it, five people are asked to talk about a

25:33

personal passion for 15 minutes. I could talk about it. Yeah,

25:35

it's like it's not a take off. Yes. And

25:38

I think they probably explained to me to want to talk about Bresnauter

25:40

or something. I said, is

25:42

there a piano? And they said, yes. I said, okay, I

25:44

want to talk about playing one of those for 30 years

25:46

and not being very good, because we don't talk about the

25:48

things we love but aren't very good at. And

25:51

fine, so I talked about that for nine minutes,

25:54

my love of the object, my love of being

25:56

in a room with pianos and all of that.

25:58

And then Robert Rickenberg, who I love. I'd

26:00

been playing bass with at the Ivy Club, came on, and

26:02

we played all of me. And I thought that

26:04

would be the last thing I would ever do in front

26:07

of an audience. And at the end,

26:09

a woman from Jewish Book Week came up and said, that

26:11

was brilliant, can you do an hour? And

26:13

I said, well, I can't do, I'm crap, but

26:15

thank you for listening for an hour. And

26:18

then, and what I still regard as the greatest piece

26:20

of festival commission I've ever come across, she

26:23

said, okay, take a year. Oh

26:25

my God, clever. Don't do it this year,

26:27

do it next. And I said, yes. That

26:29

is clever. And I went away and we

26:32

already had the beginnings of a set, we

26:34

needed 10 tunes. But only because

26:36

we've been doing them vaguely at the club. No,

26:38

that's almost like what like old timey record

26:41

companies used to do, like when they used

26:43

to actually develop a band. And you know,

26:45

how long did it take you two to

26:47

get successful? 15,000s, where have you played this?

26:50

February 2012, we did

26:52

our first gig. It was a quartet, Sat

26:55

Selfless, Dave Lewis, bassist, Rob Rickenberg.

26:57

I could only really afford two

26:59

musicians, decide to have a percussive bassist

27:01

and no drummer, Pat Singing. And that video

27:03

is still online. And if I look back at it,

27:06

I'm not ashamed of it. I'm not ashamed of that.

27:08

I can't believe you could find that fantastic music.

27:11

We did that and we sort of came off and

27:13

went, that can't be the end. And we built it

27:15

and built it. And you've got it

27:17

up here. We've gone Sunday lunches at Ronnie Scott's,

27:19

we now have a residency at Peter Express. So

27:22

there used to be loads of places to play

27:24

all over, not just London, but

27:26

the country. Loads of them have gone.

27:28

I mean, I sometimes wonder about the

27:30

size of the jazz world because we feel

27:32

sometimes that we know literally everybody's gigging on

27:34

a particular night. We are pretty

27:37

deeply embedded now in that world. And it's lovely.

27:40

Although it's a particular age demographic because

27:42

there's another generation younger than us. The

27:44

Tomorrow's Warriors kids, who are fantastic. Extra

27:47

connected. They're all about. Oh, my God.

27:50

Absolutely fantastic. There's

27:53

a whole other world there. But I think

27:55

we've sort of, we've sat in with the

27:57

Kansas Smities. We've had Jack Mike Smith, the

27:59

Kansas Smities. which is Depp with us, Adrian

28:01

Cox and all these sort of people. I love

28:03

these people. I

28:06

also have to say, music festivals, jazz

28:08

festivals are so much more fun than literary

28:10

festivals. There's always the great, the big beasts

28:12

who are selling so much more than you

28:14

are, and you're all in a way round.

28:16

I had a great time. Last year I

28:18

did a book tour, my first book tour,

28:20

you interviewed me on one of them, and

28:23

I enjoyed it. I really liked

28:25

it, but I was just like, this is like, it

28:28

puts it like, it's so white. The

28:31

big set of the good ones, you don't get that

28:33

in jazz. Not so much. Well, I

28:35

mean, when we did that jazz 65, do you remember

28:37

we did the thing at Cheltenham, we did jazz 65

28:40

just quickly, there was a recreation of

28:42

the first show, the one on BBC2, weren't you

28:45

know? And it was actually pretty

28:47

much, again, it's like all the black people were on the

28:50

stage, and all the white people were in

28:52

the audience, there was one black person in the audience, it

28:54

was Garfield. I think, I

28:56

remember actually, you know, sort of talking

28:58

about that when we were watching it,

29:00

it was kind of like jaw-dropping actually.

29:02

Well really, jazz 65 back and having a

29:04

completely white audience. But isn't that how it always was,

29:06

like same as it ever was, it's a very black

29:08

dynamic doesn't it? I always thought there would have been

29:10

some more because it was in the middle of the

29:13

Cheltenham Festival that year. The band was

29:15

great. It was Gregory Porter.

29:18

Gregory was there. Gregory Porter there. Do you know what, I just called

29:20

him by his first name, and that kind of wrote, we're like that

29:22

crap. Yeah,

29:24

I did do a thing with him, I

29:27

felt that. But that's one of the things

29:29

about the Cheltenham Jazz Festival. You go to

29:31

the literary festivals and there's Julian Barnes holding

29:33

court, whereas Gregory Porter is

29:35

in the bar with everybody. He's everybody

29:38

and singing a bit and doing a

29:40

bit and very different energy. We're

29:43

doing a show at Cheltenham Jazz Festival this year,

29:45

and we booked him for the night before as

29:48

well. And it's

29:50

essentially going to be a hang with a gig at the end of

29:52

it. And I can't remember

29:54

at one point it says, you will come

29:56

back rekt for ten feet. I

30:00

want to be wrecked for hanging. I'm

30:02

sure they might be able to start. It's my

30:04

mate's birthday by the moment. Well, there

30:06

are 120 years old between us. What's really

30:08

interesting is that generally the gigs

30:10

at Beatricexpress that we do are

30:12

midweek. And both of

30:15

us have to get up for ordinary work

30:17

the next day. But there's no hang. And

30:20

to be honest, all of our musicians

30:22

as well, because they're working so hard, they're

30:24

straight off. They don't do the hanging anyway.

30:27

But we're wrecked for the rest

30:29

of the week, aren't we? We are.

30:32

Certainly the next day, it's like the

30:34

number of times I'm sitting at my

30:36

desk trying to say, think something useful.

30:39

And it's just not possible because it's such a,

30:42

you know, sort of singing on stage. It takes

30:44

a lot. It's a

30:46

visceral kind of physical activity.

30:49

We do a two-hour show. But also, isn't it?

30:51

You do a two-hour set. No, we do not do two-hour shows. Our

30:54

40? We're there for two hours. No,

30:56

you, two sets. Oh, I see. Two hours.

30:59

One is an hour and the other one is about 55 minutes. Really?

31:01

I know you're having so much fun. You

31:03

barely noticed the pain. I know you've got

31:05

the time. It's like, keep your clock going.

31:07

It never feels that long. Actually, one of

31:09

the interesting things is, I hate

31:12

the clock, but I'm insistent that

31:14

I bring my sets down exactly on time. Because

31:16

you know what I'm like. Yes, that's not such

31:18

a... It is just a... How do you deal

31:20

with anything else? How do you deal with this

31:22

in your sets about exactly on time? Especially

31:24

if it's a bit freeform and you're just...

31:26

Not a bit freeform. I

31:29

know exactly what's going on. I mean, yes, when we get

31:31

to the solo. And now we

31:33

know freeform, Joe. Andy Oliver, you have

31:35

been on the kitchen cabinet for ten

31:37

years. Yes. Nothing is

31:39

freeform in that show when I'm in charge of it.

31:41

No, indeed. In fact, this week he said to us...

31:44

So he used to give us hand signals. And

31:46

this week he said to us, if I look at you... And

31:48

me and Andy went, what? What? What's

31:51

going to happen? We're going to burst into

31:53

flames. Dragons

31:56

are going to come up from underneath the stage. What's

31:58

going to happen if you look at it? as opposed

32:00

to intuit now, from the

32:02

light in his eyes. We will return to the

32:04

fuck off finger. We will return to the

32:07

fuck off finger. We like the fuck off finger,

32:09

because we know where we are with the

32:11

fuck off finger. There is the index and

32:13

thumb, just a little bit close together, which

32:15

indicates short answer, and there is that finger,

32:17

which is the index finger, right up, which

32:19

means stop. Yes, and

32:21

it's like, I've told you once,

32:25

and I know you fucking saw me. No,

32:27

but they, I'm the same, I like infrastructure,

32:30

I have to say, every so often,

32:33

every so often, the saxophonist and I

32:35

do kind of forget that we're meant

32:37

to stop. You would have died with

32:39

Rick Rigdon's panic, we were so unruly,

32:41

you would have hated it. Our poor

32:43

tour manager used to get us together

32:45

in an airport, and there were so

32:47

many of us, there were like 12

32:49

of us, and we were teenagers, and

32:52

we were drunk, we were a fucking

32:54

nightmare. And he'd sort of get like eight

32:56

of us and go, now stand there, I'm going to

32:58

go and get the fucking rest of them, and then

33:00

he'd go and find the other, however many, come

33:03

back and then he'd fall fucking gone.

33:05

And he literally was like sweating, he

33:07

had to leave. Dave Lewis, who's the

33:09

sax player with us, is

33:11

also tenor in the blockheads. Oh,

33:14

I love the blockheads. They tour with

33:16

various people having taken, including Phil Jupiter

33:19

for a while, taking the

33:21

in-jury spot. I

33:23

did that until she's in the in-jury

33:25

spot. Yeah. You've

33:27

got to have a performer who can sprech and sang those songs.

33:31

Jupiter was the front man for about two

33:33

years. I have no idea either.

33:35

Wow. Ian Cherry was one of

33:37

the most exceptional human beings. Did you ever

33:40

meet Ian Cherry? I did. He was

33:42

always so sweet and kind to me.

33:44

He was really good friends with Nana's

33:46

dad, with Don Cherry. He went

33:48

and spent time with them in Sweden, out of the

33:50

house in the countryside and stuff. He was a real

33:52

thinker, he was a smart, smart man. He was one

33:54

of those people, actually, not unlike himself,

33:56

in that some people were probably a bit scared

33:58

of him. knew him

34:00

underneath the kind of you know horny carapace

34:03

or whatever. He was the

34:05

sweetest, smartest, very

34:07

kind. Like I

34:09

sat on the top of Prim Motil with him one day

34:11

doing this interview and he would say, do you

34:13

want that? And I was like, I'm a

34:15

bit pressed this these kind of grey days really do

34:17

me. It's like a really grey overhanging day. You know

34:20

he was an art teacher. Yeah. So he said, he

34:22

said, grey, what's grey? And I said, the sky, look

34:24

at it. He said, that's not grey, look at it.

34:27

And he started talking to him about

34:29

all the different hues of pale blue

34:31

and grey and silver. And suddenly this

34:34

awful Tuesday, February

34:38

shitty awful day became this magical

34:40

thing. He had magic in him.

34:42

He had the ability to turn

34:44

a shitty day into magic. Now

34:46

can I say this as the microphones are here and

34:48

I've said this to Andy before but you're here, Makita.

34:51

I loved your The Pet

34:53

Pot Diaries. Fantastic book, available from all good

34:56

booksellers and a few bad ones too. Go

34:59

and get it. Because it's got recipes for things,

35:01

you know, so is 27. He was like, I've

35:03

never read a book that's

35:05

got recipes for things. But I am gagging for you

35:07

to write a memoir from

35:10

1978 to 1982 because

35:13

you were fucking there. I mean the

35:15

only thing I would say is I

35:17

have to be able to remember. He

35:20

doesn't remember. I think, I think, I like,

35:22

that's amazing. Was that probably

35:26

when you were hanging out with Blaavaa and what was that? You

35:29

said, fucking no. What were

35:31

you up to? I was on the fringes

35:33

of bits of that world. I've heard the

35:35

wag and I knew various people who were

35:37

in it and out of it and you

35:39

were there. Well, yeah. But you know the

35:41

thing about life is that you never,

35:43

you're not living in life thinking, oh, this is an

35:45

amazing movement that I'll be talking about in 30 years.

35:47

You don't think about it like that.

35:51

And I don't think about that. And I sort of,

35:53

I was thinking, you know, when you get

35:56

really old, you start to record your childhood really clearly

35:58

at that point. I'm not. Probably

36:01

about 70, she'll remember her 20s. Yeah. No,

36:04

I just don't. You know what? You know

36:06

what? It's I'm not very linear. So I'm

36:08

not sure when things happened in relation to,

36:10

say, today. Do you know what

36:13

I mean? It's that people go, sir, back in, you

36:15

know, when was that? I'm like, I don't know. I

36:17

don't even see a pre-child post

36:19

child. Sometimes. Sometimes I can

36:22

work that. You, it does help. But hang on,

36:24

how old were you when Makita came along? I

36:26

was 20. Oh, bless. I

36:28

know. If only I've known. That

36:31

was so planned, wasn't it? I got it. Absolutely.

36:36

No, I mean, obviously it wasn't planned.

36:38

You know, I don't regret any of it. I

36:41

do. There was a moment when

36:43

I was just like, that's all I needed. Go

36:45

back to your paper. I don't regret any. No,

36:47

I don't. It's despite everything you might think. It's

36:49

despite everything. It's despite everything. What? I

36:52

actually don't regret it. It's despite everything. I actually

36:54

don't regret it. It's despite everything. It's despite

36:56

everything. It's despite everything. It's despite

36:58

everything. I

37:07

just want to talk about it very briefly, not for

37:10

too long. MasterChef, so you won't mind. I think you

37:12

must. I think you must. I thought I said that

37:14

again. I think, oh, OK. I was all like,

37:16

man, Jay's not going to want to talk about MasterChef. I

37:18

think you will. I swear, he's not going to. So, you've

37:20

never met him? No, you know. Do

37:23

you know? All right. So, you've

37:25

got MasterChef. All right. I've

37:27

got MasterChef. I've got MasterChef. I've got

37:29

MasterChef. I've wanted to ask how you

37:31

feel about being on the telly because was it in

37:33

your grand plans if you're a food critic? It's not

37:36

the most obvious thing to suddenly have and you really

37:38

are quite well known and famous now and on TV

37:40

a lot of the time. But

37:42

no, but it's the truth. I remember what

37:45

it was like suddenly being well known. It's fucking weird. Slightly

37:47

less weird because I grew up with it.

37:50

Oh, of course. I did you but not in the

37:52

same way. No, but Jay, I grew up with it

37:54

too. So, I understand this.

37:56

Then it happened to me. I was like, no, this

37:59

is weird. I mean, it happened by

38:01

degrees and for a long while I craved it. There

38:03

was a period when I craved it. Oh, did you?

38:06

And I would say it was in the 90s

38:09

when I thought it was the next thing. But

38:12

it didn't happen and nobody wanted me. But

38:14

I had a very successful jobbing newspaper

38:16

career and I was already writing books and it was fine

38:18

doing it with the radio and I thought, the next thing

38:21

is TV. And nobody wanted

38:23

me. Nothing got commissioned. And it was sort of

38:25

at the point when I gave up being

38:27

interested in it when it happened. Tony's life course,

38:30

you let it go. And now, honestly, there was

38:32

a period when I was deeply involved in it.

38:34

And when I was on the one show, I

38:36

remember one year, 2011, I think it was, I

38:39

did 48 VT's for them. It

38:41

was on the couch 55 times a day. I

38:43

mean, not like I know the numbers. Yeah. It

38:47

was that much fun. I did

38:49

dispatches and

38:52

the honest truth is that that kind of factual

38:54

television I hate. I don't like

38:56

the process. I love radio. I love the show

38:58

that Andy and I do. It is

39:00

a duel. I work with brilliant, brilliant people.

39:02

When they're all on fire, you just sit

39:04

back and let them do their thing. And

39:07

the audience, the live audience is fantastic. He

39:09

never sits back and there's no one. Just

39:12

not really. And

39:17

radio also, and this is

39:19

slightly controversial, radio attracts

39:21

some very bright people. I

39:23

didn't always find in the kind of factual

39:25

documentaries the greatest journalists. I'm sure they're out

39:27

there, but I didn't get to worry about

39:29

it. There is something really brilliant, I think,

39:31

we talked about this today, about radio, which

39:34

is, I think, the intimacy. There's

39:36

something about not having cameras and all of that stuff going

39:38

on that where you're just, you

39:41

can kind of forget about the mechanics of things

39:43

in a way that you can't really do with

39:45

telly. You sort of have to pretend to or

39:47

try to with telly because that's how telly is

39:49

good. But actually with radio, it's a bit, I

39:51

always think it's a bit like, do you remember cross

39:54

lines when we were a kid and you could pick up the

39:56

phone and you'd pick it up. The

40:00

studio is a bit like getting a cross

40:02

line on the old, on the old, sort

40:04

of, phonogram. There are things like MasterChef, which

40:07

I love. Yeah. And they are very, very

40:09

simple and clean. Um, I

40:11

don't mind studio. I love

40:13

it. Studio based TV. Absolutely great. I

40:16

love the process of MasterChef. I've been on it for 18

40:18

years. Do you know, is that

40:20

how long it's been? No, it's been going with

40:22

John and Greg for 20. No, but you've been on it for

40:24

20 years. I've been a judge. You know, it's been the critics

40:26

for all the 18 years. There

40:28

are two things to say. One, it's had an awful lot of fun.

40:31

Two, it's a privilege. I will move

40:33

anything in my diary to make sure

40:35

I'm available for those filming days. Because

40:37

three... Yeah, we wouldn't have

40:39

an audience otherwise. If you

40:42

want to have a reasonable public

40:44

profile, but not do too much television, do

40:47

MasterChef. Right. A massive audience, massive reach,

40:49

gets repeated at various times. People love

40:51

it. How long does it take to

40:53

make? We shoot for a day

40:55

for each episode. Wow. And that's

40:58

it. And it's very compact

41:00

and they know what they're doing and it's great. How

41:02

do you give that live telly? Oh, I

41:04

loved live telly. Yeah. It's a dorm live telly. Because

41:06

it's like a gig, telly. Yes, it's

41:08

a gig. And you can't take it back. I

41:10

love that you can't take it back. How can you

41:12

do it a second time and mean it? And

41:15

that is the thing that drives me and

41:17

Mikita absolutely nuts. Especially when you're working with

41:19

people who don't do all this

41:21

business. And they go, so

41:23

when Andy said, can you laugh? And

41:26

then couldn't you? It's like, no, because

41:28

she sells tomatoes. It's not a job.

41:30

As you said earlier about a joke,

41:32

you said it's funny because it's true.

41:34

The truth is just always better in

41:36

broadcasting, I believe. The real last, the trip

41:38

up, the what? The mess, the mess, the

41:40

mess, show the mess. The truth is that

41:43

when we're on stage, things very often

41:45

go wrong. And there are two ways

41:47

of dealing with it. One is you just

41:49

carry on and people don't know because

41:51

they don't know. And sometimes you just

41:53

show it. Yeah. And actually the showing

41:55

of the going wrong is one of

41:58

the pleasures for the audience. thing

42:00

about life if you're comfortable with it. I

42:02

love life jelly, I love anything that's up.

42:06

Maybe it's because I kind of almost grew up doing

42:09

that stuff, my teens and all of that. So I'm

42:11

used to that kind of energy where you're like, and

42:14

then you're just in and then next thing you

42:16

know, it's done and you're kind of slightly shaking

42:18

from the adrenaline of it all. You're not quite

42:20

sure what happened and some of it was brilliant.

42:23

You think maybe and some of it was really

42:25

awful perhaps and you're not really sure what's going

42:27

to take you a minute or two to come

42:29

down from it. And I just love that energy,

42:31

that cycle of energy. It's all thrill seekers really

42:33

aren't you? Oh

42:37

the smell of the electricity. All right so

42:39

I should tell you the story of that

42:41

episode of MasterChef. The winning one? The

42:43

winning one. Oh right, I went back to the winning. So

42:48

there is a backstory to this and

42:51

it's slightly complicated and self-serving but

42:53

I'm not embarrassed about it. Okay,

42:56

self-promotion about to happen. I have

42:58

my first cookbook coming out in

43:00

September. Is it your first cookbook?

43:03

Yeah, so it's not the first book with recipes

43:05

but it's the first proper cookbook. It is to

43:07

mark my 25 years as a

43:09

restaurant critic. Nobody should have a column

43:14

on newspaper for 25 years but I've done it. A quarter

43:16

of a century. And

43:18

it is me reverse engineering or coming up

43:20

with versions of dishes inspired by my favorite

43:23

dishes of those 25 years. There's lots of

43:25

memoir and stories and stuff and I became

43:27

very conscious as I was writing this that

43:29

people would say but are these really his

43:31

recipes and can he cook? And

43:34

I've got to deal with this and this idea

43:36

formed in my head that the only way to deal with

43:38

this was to try and convince

43:40

MasterChef to do an episode with a critics

43:42

cookbook. I would have done your idea. Oh

43:46

my god, you're insane. I hate it.

43:48

Wow. Do they actually know this? Well,

43:50

then you've adopted

43:54

it. I mean I know that you've got the

43:56

idea. Between Christmas and New Year. year.

44:01

2022. I

44:03

run into David Ambler, who is the

44:05

series producer and master chef in Brockwell

44:07

Park by Brockwell Lido, because we live

44:09

near each other. And I just blurted

44:11

out, I say, do you know the

44:14

thing? Everybody wants to say that's the

44:16

critic. And I walked back from there

44:18

thinking, Willie, and lo and behold, he

44:20

did. He got a commission. We shot

44:22

it in April of 2023. My

44:25

calculation went in two directions. One

44:27

was, if it's a disaster,

44:29

and I blow out and I screw up, this

44:31

is terrible. But I reckoned I

44:33

wouldn't blow out. I didn't think I'd win. I

44:35

just thought it would be okay, because I reckon

44:37

I've been cooking for the book for a long

44:40

time. And I can cook and I thought it

44:42

would be fine. But if it went

44:44

okay, and the recipes I would choose would mostly be

44:46

from the book, it would be all right. I

44:52

think it would blow me well. I need

44:54

to. Because it's still a risk. You know what

44:56

I mean? And it

44:58

wasn't just a risk for us, actually.

45:00

It was a risk for master chefs

45:02

itself. Because if the five of us

45:04

who were their critics, and we're talking

45:06

Grace Dent, William Sitwell, Jimmy Famoeira, Leila

45:08

Kazim and me, if we

45:11

had turned out to be shockingly bad

45:13

cooks, we wouldn't just

45:15

have undermined ourselves, we would have undermined a whole

45:17

section of master chefs. And a career. It

45:20

would have been high stakes. And it

45:22

could be said, the fact I put

45:24

it to one side, but everybody did. Everybody,

45:27

we don't really put it to one

45:29

side. We did. We did. But

45:32

nobody blew out. Nobody did. Everybody

45:34

did very well. I know,

45:37

I know it so well. He

45:39

was worried about this exact thing.

45:42

He was like, we've been drinking in the oven, and then we

45:44

sat there and we go back. We've

45:46

been very loving, that's what we've seen. That

45:49

really is extraordinary. I love that you planted the

45:51

seed, because that was a risk for you and

45:53

the history of master chefs. Here's a very cool

45:55

thing. Legacy of master. We

45:57

shot on two days, a Monday and Tuesday in April.

46:00

And there was a lot of hurry up and wait

46:02

as we know from TV. And on

46:04

the Monday we've been through makeup and we're sitting

46:06

in the green room area and suddenly

46:09

all of our phones ping and we

46:11

look down and it's an email from

46:13

MasterChef booking us for the next series.

46:16

Very, very classy. They were

46:18

basically saying, whatever happens now,

46:20

you are still on this show. It

46:24

was incredibly classy. Very

46:26

nice. Can I just say, no wait,

46:28

I need to say something. No, I was going to say

46:30

this one thing, then you can say it. When

46:33

you, yeah I am always like this,

46:35

when you, the first thing you

46:37

cook, when you cook your ribs. Yeah. And

46:40

you want the, everybody's like the ribs are amazing, the ribs are

46:42

amazing. And you wait, can I have one? And

46:44

then you sit one and you walk back on, you look at the camera and you wait. And

46:47

I put the plastic out my belly, I went, J-Ray,

46:49

stop waiting on the belly. And

46:54

I went to the cuffs of the belly and he went

46:56

to the ribs and I thought, oh my

46:58

God, you know what you're doing? He really

47:00

loved it and I loved it but I

47:02

was literally salting it. Can I do this?

47:05

I really am not bragging about this

47:07

because this was quite a while ago but I won

47:09

bake off and very unexpectedly. So what happens to

47:11

you because? I can't bake. I won't bake

47:13

off. You won't bake off. No, my cousin is

47:15

a patisserie chef and she taught me over FaceTime

47:18

over five days. Everybody gets taught at some point,

47:20

in some way. I mean

47:22

she literally had not baked anything at all ever in her

47:24

life. Her

47:27

cousin did five days on FaceTime and then she

47:29

won bake off. It's pretty impressive. It's amazing. And

47:31

it doesn't feel quite great. It really feels great

47:33

to win things. But what I

47:35

want to ask you is, I filmed mine in July

47:37

and I had to wait till Christmas. April you filmed

47:39

yours? So I had to

47:41

decide what the win meant for

47:44

me without being able to share it. Because

47:46

I didn't tell anyone for what, seven months?

47:48

You had a bit longer. Anybody? No.

47:52

Not even her? I mean... No,

47:54

she came. I had to take all the people I wanted to take. All

47:56

the people I wanted to take. Just like most people I saw in the

47:58

street any time of the day. I

48:00

did tell a few people, I

48:03

told my publishers because I wanted

48:05

them to know how bloody lucky they were

48:07

to have me. Yeah, he showed me. Because

48:09

I was packing them a marketing campaign. I

48:12

mean, you know, all the rest, all the dishes

48:14

I cooked, the recipes are available

48:16

in the book. They are. They were published

48:18

in September. And I thought

48:20

it was a useful thing for them to

48:22

know. It was basically a relief. I was

48:25

extremely relieved. Yeah, actually, that

48:27

was what the rib moment was. And you

48:29

were going, 10 foot for that. 10

48:31

foot for that. Who did you see as

48:33

your greatest threat? Who also did very well?

48:36

You were like, you didn't feel

48:38

threatened. You didn't feel threatened. No, no.

48:40

I think you didn't feel threatened. Honestly,

48:42

when I say you didn't feel threatened, actually, that's

48:44

not what I meant. What I meant was I

48:47

had the impression, I wasn't in the room,

48:49

but I had the impression that the four

48:51

of you were in it together, supporting

48:53

each other a bit, scared together.

48:56

And that you were all relieved together

48:59

as well. I think that thing you

49:01

said just really rang home with me,

49:03

where it's amazing to have the jobs

49:05

that we have, and to do what

49:08

we do, and to be around, for

49:10

me, the idea that

49:12

I spend two or two and a half, three

49:14

months a year around some of the best or

49:17

most accomplished or chefs that

49:19

are really pushing themselves creatively,

49:23

up and down the country every single

49:25

year, is quite extraordinary. And for me,

49:27

it inspires me creatively to do more

49:29

things and to push myself. And I

49:31

think as a creative person, being around

49:34

other people is incredibly important. What I

49:36

want to talk about just very, very

49:38

quickly, and just because I'm

49:40

slightly obsessed, is this whole Michelin

49:43

scenario. So, Jockay

49:45

just won a Michelin star. Jockay,

49:47

Chisuru, Acoro just won. These are

49:49

landmark things. Jockay is the second

49:52

black woman in the world to

49:54

win a Michelin star, the first one in this

49:56

country. Is Michelin

49:58

important? Do you think it... Does it matter,

50:00

Jay? Every

50:02

profession needs prizes

50:05

and things to aim at. Thank God for

50:07

the prizes and awards circuit because I

50:10

often get booked to present them. They're

50:16

important things and I'm delighted that

50:18

people are able to win those

50:20

prizes. I personally find it very

50:22

hard to engage with Michelin. It

50:25

is striking that it has taken until

50:27

2024 for us

50:30

to be talking about black chefs

50:32

winning Michelin stars as if they've

50:34

welcomed you in. To a club.

50:38

Why has it taken so bloody long? And

50:41

on the one hand you can be delighted and say

50:43

what a brilliant achievement and on the other hand you

50:46

say what fucking kept

50:48

you? Because it's not like there

50:50

haven't been brilliant black chefs cooking

50:52

for decades. What's

50:54

wrong with you? The greatest achievement

50:57

of Michelin is to make everybody

51:00

else own their star rating system.

51:02

So that when stars come out people go well I don't think

51:05

that's a two star it must be a one star I think

51:07

it should be a three star. And you go no it's what

51:09

Michelin said because they're the people who keep turning out the red

51:11

ones. They're the people who bestow it and

51:13

they're the people who deign to give it to you. The

51:16

prizes awards are wonderful I had a few

51:18

you've had a few you know they're all

51:21

great and more to the point if winning

51:23

that star brings people to her

51:25

food her brilliant food because I reviewed it

51:27

when it was in Brixton. That's

51:31

fantastic. But I just asked

51:33

the question Michelin what kept you? What kept

51:35

you? I completely agree with you. And

51:38

also the other part I want to ask you is do

51:40

you think it's a guarantee of excellence? No.

51:43

Thank you. Now

51:46

here is the interesting thing. I

51:48

think you are more likely to find it interesting to be a one star.

51:51

Above that it gets into bangles

51:53

and balls. And it

51:55

gets so caught up in its own

51:57

evolution of itself. more

52:00

than I mean doesn't doesn't as you get

52:02

higher up in the stars isn't it also

52:04

about the number of members of South there

52:07

are. It doesn't mean the food. And

52:11

if Michelin actually mentioned anything they wouldn't have to

52:13

keep saying look we've just given two stars to

52:15

a West African restaurant or a Chinese restaurant or

52:17

an Indian restaurant. It wouldn't be a debate in

52:19

2024. Doesn't that mean that

52:21

there's time for a different set of

52:23

awards? It's

52:25

all different to expand our parameters

52:28

and how we measure excellence. But

52:31

actually I think. I should leave

52:33

it up to one person on a Sunday

52:35

newspaper. I mean I want to leave that

52:37

person because this is the way we're going out

52:39

today. Are you saying? I

52:42

heard that. He knows that we're coming to the end

52:44

of it. That was his going to bow. There's

52:47

nothing you like more than a deadline

52:49

Andy Oliver. And then the bed will

52:51

come in and then it will go into the drum

52:53

beat and yep they just end the distrust. Shall we give

52:55

him a chance to say hi. And

52:58

Jay thank you. Thank you

53:00

for coming to our table and absolutely delighted to

53:02

talk to you for number three. Hi I literally

53:04

am in love with you. You're really

53:06

in love with me. I'm in love

53:08

with you. I'm in love with you

53:10

too. He's going to get

53:12

so annoyed. Come listen to me say. I'm

53:16

totally in love with you. And

53:18

apparently some guy plays the piano when you do it. Some guy

53:20

plays the piano. I

53:22

fucking held the piano. Yeah.

53:26

Say it. You

53:28

make that end of podcast. No.

53:32

That would end the demo. There's

53:34

your cup right there. Do you

53:36

normally do a fade on just your last day?

53:40

Do the finish. Well

53:48

I didn't even have to do my job. I

53:50

just said to Jay. Thank you

53:52

for enabling me to not even do my

53:54

job. I literally just sat enraptured by the

53:56

storyteller. He is a raconteur. Is

53:58

he not? And so

54:01

is Pat. Pat, I'm sorry.

54:03

I mean, I've known Jay for a long time, 10, 11

54:05

years we've just established. Pat

54:07

is my new revelation. From when Jay

54:09

first walked in, so warm,

54:11

so lovely. But you know, he's

54:13

quite an imposing figure but very

54:15

gentle, very gentle energy. But

54:18

then once he was around the table with two women

54:20

that he knows as well as you two, obviously he

54:22

knows Pat a lot better, but women that loved him

54:24

and have been in his life for a long

54:27

time, his wife and a very old friend. It

54:29

was just like, he got very sweet

54:31

and giggly and soft. Jay is very sweet.

54:33

He's one of those people I love him

54:35

dearly so I don't want to say loads

54:37

of really nice things, but he has got

54:39

a massive intellect. He's incredibly talented and he's

54:41

really accomplished and that is intimidating for a

54:43

lot of people. Underneath all

54:45

of those things, he's sweet,

54:47

he's funny, he's kind, he's

54:50

curious, he's gentle and he's

54:52

compassionate. So Jay

54:54

taught me today how to take a

54:56

compliment. You say, yes, yes, I'll take

54:58

a bit more of that and have

55:00

you got anything else? You

55:04

were amazing, thank you very much. Thank you very

55:06

much and keep it cut. What else? Thank God

55:08

for Jay, Raina and Pat. I thank God for

55:10

stirring it up. It was a good idea, Makita

55:12

Oliver. Thank you. That was a good idea. Yeah.

55:15

Anything else you want to say about it? No, that's enough. Okay.

55:23

You're welcome. Thanks, man. Bye.

55:26

Bye. Bye. Bye.

55:29

Bye. King

56:00

and Logan Lerman. And

56:02

don't forget about Grey's Anatomy. Every

56:05

Grey's episode ever is now streaming

56:07

on Hulu. So

56:10

what are you waiting for? You'll

56:12

stream something new on Hulu. He

56:17

can't power the world's best podcast.

56:20

Here's the show that we report. Hi,

56:24

I'm Una Chertland, and I'm the host

56:26

of a new podcast called Hollywood Exiles.

56:29

It tells the story of how

56:32

my grandfather, Charlie Chaplin, and many

56:34

others were caught up in a

56:36

campaign to root out communism in

56:38

Hollywood. It's a story

56:40

of glamour and scandal and political

56:42

intrigue and a battle for the

56:45

soul of a nation. Hollywood

56:47

Exiles from CBC Podcast and

56:49

the BBC World Service. Find

56:52

it wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST

56:56

helps creators launch, grow,

56:58

and monetize their podcasts

57:00

everywhere. acast.com.