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2:48

to our table thank you it's an honor

2:50

then if you've never done anything like this

2:52

before together that's really nice

2:54

thank you for saying yes nice

3:02

i like it we have made you a brunch

3:05

because this is the earliest one we've ever done

3:08

it's 11 o'clock uh so

3:10

we've made you american pancakes just means

3:12

they're thick and fluffy really really soft

3:14

scrambled eggs with chives and conse

3:17

tomatoes with chili creamed onions and

3:19

garlic some berries here

3:21

and crispy bacon and mushrooms and

3:23

maple syrup so you can mixy

3:26

matchy she really goes for

3:28

it with breakfast stuff yeah i like

3:30

to kind of exercise this muscle in a

3:32

while breakfast they're

3:36

lovely so no mum any suggestions

3:38

on like like would would one have all

3:41

of this on my i'm i'm just gonna

3:43

have eggs and mushrooms she's very much what

3:45

she's really going at is why have you

3:47

made sweet things and savory things at the same

3:49

time she doesn't really please i think it's i

3:51

want them to contaminate i love sweet and savory

3:53

so i'll do it together i think they go

3:55

together oh i'll do it in chess i'll start

3:58

with the savory and then i'll like I

4:00

wanted to do it. Yeah. I'm

4:05

having pancakes, bacon and a bit

4:07

of maple syrup and possibly a couple of berries.

4:10

That's the winner. That is the winner. That is what you

4:12

did to me. Yeah. This is what

4:14

you always come to. Oh, are we a pancake man? But

4:16

I love, I normally love pancakes with bacon.

4:19

I'll put a couple of soshes on

4:21

it with fruit, blueberries. Yes. And then

4:23

I'll make sure it's both. No

4:26

soshes each other. Soshes in

4:29

berries. Soshes in berries.

4:31

Soshes in berries. Soshes in berries. Soshes

4:33

in berries. Soshes in berries. Let

4:36

me ask you this then. We're very cosmopolitan

4:38

then. Richie, would you

4:40

have steak and like

4:43

a piece of sea bass on the same plate? Would you serve

4:45

the first? I'd serve the first. I probably would. I'd

4:48

serve the first. I'd like that. That's a good

4:50

man, Katie. That is nice. That's a good man. That's

4:52

a good menu. I'd like to have a few things

4:54

off the menu because I'll get a bit of a

4:56

sous- Me too, because I like to have

4:58

a little bit and then another little different set up.

5:01

There you go. And then another little different

5:03

structure and order. Yeah. No.

5:06

Do you know what else? I think you do, that I find really alarming. We

5:23

like to get our little blue carrier bag of snacks

5:25

on the shop for the evening and he

5:27

eats the chocolate first, then the crisp.

5:29

Oh, never. And I'm not going to

5:31

go first. I'm never going to go first. No, but I have

5:33

a little bit of chocolate and a crisp and a chocolate and

5:36

a crisp. I'm back again. I'll mix it up because I like

5:38

the savoury and sweet. Which

5:41

is really weird to your teeth because they're

5:43

already savoury and then you're putting melted sweets

5:45

stuff. Can I honestly? Do

5:48

you put your chocolate in the fridge? No,

5:50

I can't have hard chocolate. No,

5:52

no, it's the same with cakes and things like that.

5:56

I can't have a cold cake. I have to have

5:58

it in room temperature. We put our

6:01

chocolate biscuits in the fridge. Freezing? In

6:03

the freezer, yeah. No. No. No.

6:07

No. No. No, it's just

6:09

a lot of things. No.

6:11

No. When we started

6:13

freezing the grapes, because we were like, oh, I like

6:16

that. We were like, we're going to quit chocolate and

6:18

freezing grapes is just the same replacement and we'll eat

6:20

those. No. Well, that's a

6:22

little sweet snack. That's why we're here. Yeah. It's

6:24

not the same thing, but it's not chocolate. No, someone is

6:27

probably like, Craig David taught me that. Well, freezing

6:29

grapes. I went to his house once for an

6:31

interview and he had bowls of chocolate everywhere. And

6:33

I said, how come you've got bowls of chocolate

6:35

everywhere? He said, because if it's everywhere, I don't

6:37

want to eat it. Really? And

6:40

then he brought out what he does. He was just loads

6:42

of frozen grapes. So I was like, okay, crazy. Yeah,

6:44

but it's not the same. No, it is

6:46

kind of Craig David. Craig David, sorry.

6:48

Lying. Whatever date is when it's Tuesday

6:50

or Wednesday, whatever day we're doing. Not

6:53

a one face. But where did you find

6:55

each other? How did you meet? It was so, this

6:57

is how long ago it was. It was BBM. Do

7:00

you remember? Blackberry. Blackberry messenger. Oh,

7:02

I didn't know what you were talking about. I was like,

7:04

what? I don't think you had a Blackberry. BBM was basically

7:06

the beginning of WhatsApp, wasn't it? It was like instant.

7:08

Yeah, or the old MSN. Like, that's how it progressed.

7:10

So it was a while ago. How long was it?

7:13

How long? What was it? It was the

7:15

Olympics. Do you remember? Yeah,

7:19

it was 2012. It was 12 years ago now. Wow. So

7:22

my friend was dating his friend, but it was like casual.

7:25

And then you asked for my BBM pin.

7:28

Oh, I'm a mid-nauties love kid. What's your

7:30

BBM? I'm not giving him my pin. I

7:33

will give it to him. He's quite nice. Pin

7:35

worthy. And at the time, where were you

7:37

both at in your life? I was a

7:40

builder then. Yeah. I was

7:42

doing a build. Yeah. Did you just hit it

7:44

around here? Yeah, in Essex, just down the road. Yeah. I

7:46

was like, what's your pin? I was like, what's your pin? I

7:48

was like, what's your pin? I was like, what's your pin? I'm not giving

7:50

him my pin. I

7:55

grew up in Loudoun. I grew up in Loudoun, yeah. Did you know who

7:58

Kate was? time

8:00

right yeah I was. So were you

8:02

playing that bit cool? To be fair no

8:04

I didn't if I'm on issue I knew I knew

8:06

a little bit because what happened to

8:08

it at the time when it all come out

8:10

because it was all in the papers etc but

8:12

I was so into my football things like that

8:15

I didn't really I went on social media I

8:17

went on none of that really I didn't read no

8:19

newspapers anything like that so I just took

8:21

it with Pincher sort of oh yeah it's a girl

8:24

that's had a bad accident yeah and that that was

8:26

as far as I went. Was that quite nice for

8:28

you Casey that you didn't know loads of

8:30

stuff about you and yeah I think so

8:32

and my career was different back then I'd

8:35

made sort of like observational documentaries and

8:37

it was funny because we got talking

8:39

and I was just about to go to America to

8:42

make a stem cell documentary and I was going to

8:44

be away for like three months so

8:46

I kind of said to him I'm going away

8:48

but it's not like he approached me romantically

8:50

really I think it was more like friends

8:53

yeah at the beginning and then we had this high

8:55

school relationship where we spoke every night on

8:57

the phone while I was away oh

8:59

it was like time difference for us both and

9:02

then I would wake up and I'd fallen

9:04

asleep on the phones and it was just

9:06

like pen pals it was just like mates

9:08

then I came back from America and I

9:10

thought oh he's a good-looking guy who probably

9:13

has met someone else and not really said

9:15

that to me and then annoyingly

9:17

I had to have an unplanned operation in

9:19

my nose and I had to have a rib removed

9:21

and I was gonna need a walking stick and

9:23

I was like this is not sexy is

9:30

when you're shaving the upper five actually

9:35

said to you I was like look actually this is

9:37

probably a bad time in my life to meet someone

9:39

so you should go and live your life cuz you're

9:41

so young and just leave it and

9:43

then you were like no everything

9:46

that could go wrong basically

9:55

went wrong because I had to have the

9:58

tissue in my nose stretched with this thing called

10:00

an osmosis expander, which is like a grain

10:02

of rice that when it touches moisture it

10:04

stretches and then it stretches tissue. Mine ripped

10:06

through my nose and made like a big

10:08

hole in my nose. So I was like,

10:10

oh my God, I've met this guy, I've

10:13

got a hole in my nose, the

10:15

flouriest walking stick I could find with black crystals on.

10:17

You had an insect that had something up for

10:19

you. But you came to visit me, didn't

10:21

you, in hospital? Before that, that was when the

10:24

first two months I actually come to my brother's

10:26

wedding, didn't I? Oh God, in Greece. And

10:28

that's when your nose split out from his in

10:31

Greece. It was hot. So I've only known her

10:33

two months. Yeah. I've been introduced

10:35

to the family. You went to Greece, you did the

10:37

trip. Yeah, she come with me because my brother's wedding

10:39

in Greece. Yeah. But then within

10:41

two, three days, they burst, their nose. Oh,

10:43

it happened in Greece. Yeah, because you have

10:46

to have the expander in for like six months.

10:48

Right. So before you have a skin

10:50

graft. Yeah. You poor thing. Were

10:52

you scared? Were you freaked out? Well, it was quite

10:54

early on with us. So I just thought, do you

10:56

know what? I'd rather this ended because it's too stressful

10:58

and it's not really what young people do when they

11:00

date. This is like when you're married to

11:02

someone and you're old and you look after each other, you

11:05

know, and it was like skipping a relationship. You

11:07

could always keep doing it the other way around. Yeah,

11:09

that's a couple of decades. You know, you seem like

11:11

two young love birds who have just started dating. Yeah.

11:14

I'm like, you're starting now. Yeah. Yeah.

11:17

I suppose the upside of that, which is possibly

11:19

an odd way to put it, is that you must

11:21

have felt very safe with him. This is what I

11:23

was thinking. Yeah. So he's that enduring at

11:25

the beginning of a relationship. I don't know.

11:28

Most women I know. I don't know if men feel the same

11:30

way, but definitely for female friends, it's

11:32

always about feeling safe with, like, you know, emotionally

11:34

safe. You know what I mean? And if someone's

11:37

going to keep coming back when you're going through

11:39

all that stuff, you must think, no, this one's

11:41

a proper actual, I mean, Keeper

11:43

sounds ridiculous because it's beyond that, but

11:45

there's proper deep connection. Yeah. And

11:48

so earlier, it was also the days of blockbusters.

11:50

Like that was our thing we used to walk,

11:52

because I lived in Chippewa. Yeah. Blockbusters still around

11:54

in 2012. Yeah. It was quite a

11:56

bit. It was exactly like that. It was actually a bit of a

11:58

surprise. And

12:02

we would walk to, I lived in Hammersmith and we'd

12:04

walk to Chis at High Road to Blockbusters and

12:06

I remember it got really bad with my nose but

12:09

it was like an open purple hole and I was

12:11

limping because of my wrist and I said to him,

12:13

look, I know we normally go to Blockbusters but if

12:15

you go to Blockbusters with me now, everyone's going to

12:17

stare and it's probably going to be embarrassing for

12:19

you. You go to Blockbusters, I'll wait here.

12:22

And then you were like, if you don't come,

12:24

I'm not going to rent the video. So how

12:26

did things change in your life then, Kitty, when

12:28

this became a real relationship? Did

12:31

it change the way you approached everything, having that kind

12:33

of... It was quite cringe

12:35

what we did because we were paranoid about

12:37

like, well, you're not really in that world

12:39

and you didn't really want to be. Yeah.

12:42

So we told everyone a fake name, do you remember

12:44

that? What of your boyfriend? Who

12:47

told everyone his name was James, which

12:49

is not really very secretive because that's your

12:51

middle name. So moving into

12:53

that world, you had trepidation

12:55

about it, like being with somebody who

12:57

was like, you know, has a platform and

13:00

is visible really on TV and all of that.

13:02

Did you have real trepidation about that? I was

13:04

so naive at the start, because I

13:06

didn't like I said, I didn't have no social

13:08

media. I weren't in that world at all. So

13:11

I didn't really have a vision or I

13:13

didn't really have a thought of what to expect really.

13:15

I was literally going in with a blank canvas. That's

13:17

quite good, maybe. Yeah, so that was better. So I

13:19

didn't have no perception of what it's going to be

13:21

like. What about the juice to treat that was? We

13:25

read that you know, Jason Bay

13:27

or yeah, yeah, I keep thinking I'm going to do that

13:29

and then chickening out. How

13:32

hard is it juicing for like five

13:34

days and training seven? Yeah. And you

13:36

walked into the wall. You

13:38

can go for seven days. We just said, we don't

13:40

have a day. So we and it was

13:42

like a press thing where they were going to leave

13:45

be journalists there, but we didn't realise until we landed

13:47

in Portugal that there were journalists as well. And we'd

13:49

never been like you never went to red carpet events.

13:51

We never got paparazzi together. I used to go to

13:53

work things on my own with my sister and

13:56

we told everyone his name was James. So

13:58

and the other people there. lovely Beverly

14:00

Knight and her husband. Oh

14:02

yeah, I love him.

14:05

So then she was there, some other,

14:07

we met JB, Chloe. You

14:10

love JB from JLS? Yes

14:13

I do. They were really nice.

14:15

So we were in this really lovely group

14:18

of really nice people but a couple of

14:20

people that wrote for like Hello Mag and

14:22

OK Mag. So you write with the press?

14:24

Yeah. So they call Beth Knight's husband James

14:26

1 and you James 2. Oh I've

14:29

got it, my room. What do we

14:32

call master James? It's

14:34

not me. It's not actually your name.

14:36

He's not there anyway because he's

14:38

never been away with journalists. And

14:42

then they're doing like five or five football, bearing

14:44

in mind he's not eaten for like four days. James,

14:46

pass the book. James, he's flanking everybody. James,

14:50

I'm called James, you know, sorry.

14:57

I tried to use my middle name once when I was

14:59

a kid which is Denise. I'm called Andrew Denise Margarete

15:01

and I just hate being called Andrea because no

15:03

one could ever remember it. Exactly the same thing happened.

15:05

People go Denise, Denise! I was like oh, Denise, no.

15:07

And last thing I want to say is my name's

15:10

not Denise. I

15:12

don't see where that really is. It's not my name. It

15:15

was one of those lies that we were too far

15:17

in but we regretted and we were like this doesn't make

15:19

you private or anonymous in any way. It doesn't

15:21

make you the wrong name. So

15:24

after that trip did we go back? Beth

15:26

Knight, still call she James. No! She

15:29

does. She knows. She knows now though,

15:31

doesn't she? She does. She knows now.

15:33

I don't know. Beverly Knight for the

15:35

record, his name is Richard. I

15:38

heard me saying it. One

16:00

thing that really interests me about you, Katie,

16:02

is that you turned such

16:05

adversity into quite

16:08

powerful advocacy and real

16:10

activism. You know, there's a million people on

16:12

social media who kind of

16:14

say, you know, mother, activist, and they

16:17

just mean they shout at people on social media. But you

16:19

actually do some really interesting work

16:21

and quite brave and powerful work. And

16:23

actually listening to just your story together,

16:25

I'm really getting the sense that you

16:27

are so determined. You're a very forceful

16:30

determined woman, but you are, aren't you?

16:32

You must be. I was stubborn growing

16:34

up. Yeah. Yeah. How did you make

16:36

that bridge? Because that's a big bridge.

16:39

Um, I feel like all

16:41

of us in our lives search

16:43

for our why. And, you know, I

16:45

feel like it's more common to get

16:47

your why more towards the end of

16:49

your life, actually. And I suppose you never

16:51

find it on a sort of mediocre day

16:54

when everything's going well. No purpose, right? Yeah.

16:56

Yeah. And that understanding of like, what is

16:58

the point of me? Why am I here?

17:00

Like deep down, who actually am I? So

17:02

I always feel like I

17:04

had this unique experience where I found

17:07

my why really early twenties. And I

17:09

think it's quite rare to see that.

17:11

So it made me realize what the

17:13

point of my life was and what I'm supposed to be

17:15

doing. I mean, I have, I have a faith as well,

17:17

but I wasn't raised as a faith. Right. So I

17:19

had this thing of I surrendered and understood what

17:21

I should be doing with all my time. And

17:24

that is why I built a charity and

17:26

I do a lot of stuff in prisons,

17:28

that kind of foundation. Yeah. Tell us about

17:31

that work. So that was for me,

17:33

I had to go out the country

17:35

for treatment. And you think of people

17:37

going to America, you know, think of

17:39

innovation to be out there. It was

17:41

only in Europe in France. So funny

17:43

story, my mum and dad, their house

17:45

was on this, this first documentary I

17:47

made when I was a contributor of the

17:49

subject of the documentary. My beautiful

17:51

face. Yeah. So mum and dad live in

17:54

a really small village. And that's where I'm

17:56

brought up. Everyone knows everyone. Hampshire. Hampshire. Yeah.

18:00

You love it, we still go back

18:02

there don't we? Yeah I love you want to go down

18:04

there. We go back there and regress to children and just

18:06

sit on the sofa eating. But

18:08

yeah so everyone recognised the exterior of

18:11

mum and dad's house and people started

18:13

putting like tenors through the letterbox and

18:16

my mum and dad they're quite strict, look at old school

18:18

mother. She's got farmers, your dad's got

18:20

farmers. My

18:22

mum is like a school teacher

18:25

and they were like you can't take that

18:27

money that's fraud, you're a disability benefit, you've

18:29

got to bank the money. But

18:31

the money kept coming into like the thousands. Oh

18:33

my goodness. So they were like you need to

18:35

make the bank account charitable status and then what

18:37

we'll do is if there's another big burn injury

18:40

in the news or you know or

18:42

a big catastrophe where there's a house fire or

18:44

something we'll just give that money to those people

18:46

to go to France. Right. And

18:48

it never stops like there's public support

18:51

and then we just formalised

18:53

into a trustee board with

18:55

actual volunteer staff and then we built our

18:57

own rehab centre here so no one has

18:59

to go to France. You have your own

19:01

centre? Up north, yeah. Not in London, no

19:03

way. Yeah, that's incredible. That's amazing. That

19:06

really is and I can't believe that

19:08

people were just giving

19:10

to you in that way and just felt

19:13

that they had to do something. Well you know

19:15

all those cliches of like when you're

19:18

in dire straits and you lose faith

19:20

in like mankind, just look for the

19:22

helpers? Yes. And you do see

19:24

that don't you when you see these big things in the news and

19:26

you're like oh what's happened to the

19:28

world? You have to focus on the helpers I

19:31

think. Yes. And I saw from

19:33

my own eyes there are a lot of people

19:35

out there who want to do things anonymously and

19:37

do really good things. Yeah, look for the good.

19:39

Yeah, so like you get to meet a lot

19:41

of those people and it does open your eyes doesn't it?

19:44

Yeah, there's a lot of good people. Even though there really

19:46

are. There really are a lot of good people out there.

19:48

There really are and it's really easy to forget. And

19:51

I think that the message you know you talk about

19:53

social media actually, the message we get again and again

19:55

all the time right now is that everything is broken.

19:58

The whole country's fractured. everybody

20:01

hates each other and you know since Brexit it's

20:03

all been a nightmare and everybody's like you know

20:05

and you could be forgiven for thinking

20:07

that is the only thing that's true that if

20:09

you really get out there I just made

20:11

a show I was just gonna say going

20:13

all around the country and kind of looking

20:15

at different communities and bringing communities together through

20:17

food through feasting and there's

20:20

like these unbelievable stories these pockets of

20:22

communities all around the country where people

20:25

are doing the exact opposite of being

20:27

broken they are fixing themselves fixing each

20:29

other looking after each other holding each other I

20:32

did one of them with mum in the old area that we grew

20:34

up in Labrick Grove and I was

20:36

really nervous to go there just thinking oh god I

20:38

don't want to see I don't be reminded how gentrified

20:40

Notting Hill is thanks I don't need to know my

20:43

area has been completely taken over and we just found

20:45

the complete opposite and it was really uplifted. Oh my

20:47

goodness. It filled our soul. I mean I

20:49

spent three months filming and three months crying.

20:52

Getting people to go oh

20:54

my god you're so amazing.

20:56

You can't listen to what people tell

20:58

you about an area or a situation you need to

21:00

go and witness for. I did

21:03

a show in prisons with it as well. I know

21:05

I was so interested in it. Now

21:08

can I ask because you do so many

21:10

different types of things within your broadcasting and

21:12

obviously as a broadcaster I know that it's

21:15

not easy to get things made it's not easy to

21:17

get things that you want made but it feels like

21:19

everything that you do get made and is put out

21:22

you have a proper connection to and then

21:24

I don't know maybe you fought to get

21:26

made a bit. So with the jailhouse mum's

21:28

impossible to make programmes in prisons in the

21:30

UK because Minister of Justice just blocked you

21:32

for access. Like the prison, they didn't want

21:34

to show what's going on but the Minister

21:37

of Justice is so strict. So

21:39

I was just working in prisons anyway I've been working

21:41

in prisons for like what three years do you think?

21:43

Three years yeah. Really doing what? Again

21:47

it was the thing that I hadn't thought about doing

21:49

so I was working with Women's Aid and a lot

21:51

of the women's and the refugees had actually

21:53

come from prison and I realised there

21:55

was this big connection with women being victims

21:58

and ending up in prison. not

22:00

the right place for them. And

22:02

then this one prison contacted me that they named

22:04

a wing after me when they were doing this

22:06

project about women that inspired them. And

22:08

they're like, would you come in and meet the women

22:10

that had done this project? So I felt like, I've

22:13

got to be honest, I did feel like it's not

22:15

something I would have thought to do, but I felt

22:17

like I had to, because I felt bad to come

22:19

and- Because they renamed it off, yeah. Yeah, and I

22:21

felt like here's a group in prison that are trying

22:23

to move forward and better their lives. And if I

22:26

reject them, will that put people backwards? So

22:28

I did go a little bit like sort of

22:30

not that excited, and I ended up

22:33

getting on so well with the women,

22:35

and they have so many stories, so

22:37

many shared emotions. Were you surprised by the

22:39

types of women and the kind of people that you-

22:41

The variation, yeah. And just

22:43

everyone's someone's daughter. Yeah. We've got two

22:45

girls, haven't we? Everyone started out as

22:47

a little baby, the mother of somebody.

22:51

And then I just started going back and they were

22:53

telling me how they struggled to get speakers for International

22:55

Women's Day, because no, everyone wants to be paid.

22:57

So I was like, well, I'll do that. I make

22:59

lots of money to incorporate stuff. I can come and

23:02

do a talk in a prison. It's not gonna kill

23:04

my schedule, you know? And I've just been

23:06

going back for years. And now usually there

23:08

will be bags and the presents and- And

23:10

so I don't feel like they're surprises you take from what

23:12

they- Well, like getting in bags for late night. Like

23:15

Christmas, because it's so hard. You can't

23:17

have anything with alcohol,

23:20

peripheral, any preservatives in.

23:22

You can't have anything sharp glass. So we were going

23:25

around all these shops, getting all different beauty

23:27

things and reading all the ingredients.

23:29

And you take little present bags. Then

23:31

International Women's Day, he dethorned 50

23:34

roses by hand. Come on, Richie.

23:37

Come on, Richie. He's

23:39

like the silent hero of life.

23:41

Keep being kind. You're

23:43

up behind the line. He dethorned- How

23:46

many roses? 50 roses. 50

23:49

roses a.m. before the kids got up, because he had to do

23:51

the school run as a- Yeah. Who is this man?

23:53

Where did you find that? Please, I'm now gonna

23:55

go for my pen. I'm a kid. I'm also

23:57

a kid. I'm giving you pen. I'm

24:00

in the reaction. Sort of de-sawn these and

24:02

take the kids and you talk de-sawn roses

24:04

and lovely little presents. Yeah, and then

24:06

we're just doing different workshops and stuff with them, but

24:08

it's the same what you said about your show. Like

24:11

everyone in prison, I

24:13

mean, to say somebody's a bad person, I'm not sure

24:15

I actually believe in that concept anyway. There's like

24:18

this tiny percent of the prison population that

24:20

can't be rehabilitated, but it's so tiny. No,

24:23

do you know, this is making me think

24:25

of Dennis, the cornworm boxer.

24:28

I have this company called Ropes,

24:31

which is getting as many people to

24:33

skip as possible. And when we

24:35

first started, it was locked down. So I just took

24:37

a load of ropes out and a few of my

24:39

cousins into my phones and went to a square,

24:41

Gillette Square and Hackney. And there were all these

24:43

kind of old gentlemen of the area. A

24:46

lot of them are judged immediately. And I

24:49

took skipping ropes down. Half of them just

24:51

grabbed the ropes, skipping, having a great time.

24:53

But one of them was absolutely incredible doing

24:55

crosses, everything toothless. Seventy five years old. And

24:58

I said to his friend, how come he's

25:00

so good? And they said, because he used

25:02

to be a Commonwealth boxer. It's the coordination.

25:05

Yes. And actually, for a moment, he didn't

25:07

look like a man that had been sleeping on the streets

25:09

or sitting in that square for 20 years. He looked

25:11

like an eight year old boy. And he was like,

25:13

God, I haven't done this in decades. And he could

25:15

still do it. So I think

25:17

it's so important to see us before the

25:19

things that we do or the things that

25:21

happen to us. Who were we? We were

25:23

just this being. Yeah, not exactly. We

25:26

are not what happens does. I mean, we

25:28

are. But there is there's also this innocence

25:30

in all of us. Yeah. So I just

25:32

love the idea that all the judgments just

25:34

went in. Yeah. No, I mean, we're all

25:36

like, what's one decision today or one accident

25:38

away from going to prison or a home. Yeah.

25:42

Something happening to you with your work disappear.

25:44

Yeah. All of a sudden, you know, your two mortgage

25:46

payments late and then you're there and then you've got

25:48

to live. Happens to people all the time. And there's

25:51

joy in there as well, because we're able to know

25:53

them all. It's quite funny. I've known for years and

25:55

I when I saw them in the sales, like, yeah,

25:57

I'll be back with it. We do like park running

25:59

then. So I was like, I'll be back for part one

26:01

next month. Hopefully I'll see you all then.

26:03

And they're like, Katie, we've got life. We'll be here

26:06

for 38 years. Yeah. Oh

26:08

my God. You say that all the time and

26:10

you say it again. Yeah, but we'll see you

26:12

next week. We'll meet again. Yeah, we'll see you

26:14

next week. I

26:17

was on another day. So we can laugh about

26:19

it. We're having a lot exactly. Yeah, there is

26:21

joy. There is hate in there. You've been to

26:23

men's prison as well. You've got, not as an

26:25

inmate. No, not as an inmate. He's very,

26:28

very terrifying. So

26:31

you volunteer. Exactly. What do you do then? Same

26:33

sort of work. The same sort of thing,

26:35

yeah. Just helping them. Just mental health. Mental health.

26:38

More mental health. I know you think, I know for me, after

26:41

my brother died and I was really, I was 25

26:43

when my brother died, it was really sudden. And

26:46

I was side swiped

26:48

by accident gap. But you know, I was depressed. I

26:50

went through all sorts of stuff. And one of

26:52

the things I started doing, that

26:54

really helped me, was working

26:56

as a volunteer at an

26:59

HIV and AIDS hospice. And

27:01

there was something just about seven outside the door and

27:04

meeting people who

27:06

needed connection. It

27:09

helped me so much. I mean, obviously

27:12

the infrastructure and all of the work that was happening

27:14

in this centre was called the London Lighthouse. It was

27:16

just off-lover. Do you remember the Lighthouse? Amazing, of course.

27:18

The most incredible place I used to do one

27:20

or two days a week there. Just

27:22

getting out of bed and going down to

27:25

the end of my road and going to

27:27

that place once or twice a week, changed

27:29

everything for me. Good perspective. Yeah, because I

27:32

just was literally kind of paralyzed by

27:34

the shock of loss and

27:37

death. And just connecting with

27:39

other people who needed some

27:41

humanity. It's funny

27:43

because whenever I'm interviewed about projects and things

27:45

like the Jow House Mums, I'm like, I

27:48

had these ambitions and if I wasn't with

27:50

you, I couldn't do them. Because

27:53

I'll come home with my crazy ideas and

27:56

I'll be like, you know, I've been to prisons in the UK. He's like,

27:58

yeah. about going

28:00

to America to do this series and I won't be

28:02

able to use my phone much and it'll be different

28:04

times different what do you I mean you can do

28:06

pain yourselves I know you can't do braids but you'll

28:08

be fine with it and

28:12

I can get some more hair bits. How

28:14

long were you a while doing that? It

28:16

was more like two three week blocks at

28:18

a time. And

28:21

how is it for you and Katie goes away especially when

28:23

you know she's going to do something that hardcore? I

28:26

know to be fair, it's something she's always

28:28

wanted to do so I support her fully

28:30

in what she wants to do so I

28:32

always worry about is she going

28:34

to be safe out there? Is anything going to

28:37

happen to her? Is it a bit too much

28:39

for her mental health taking more problems other people's

28:41

problems on? Yeah. But I'll

28:43

just support her what she does I know she wants to do it.

28:46

Does she have to be stopped sometimes? Do

28:49

you have any advice for this bit on her? There's

28:53

no way that's happening. There's no stopping her. Once

28:56

she gets an idea in her head or I

28:58

might announce it you might just agree with it

29:00

and go yeah. I'm a focus either. I

29:03

love that. In our

29:05

career, sorry not our career, in our industry you sort

29:07

of have to be that bloody minded and you have

29:10

to be so focused on what it is you want

29:12

to make and why as you were saying the why

29:14

of things we started talking about that a lot intent

29:17

but why are we doing this? It's not

29:19

about just being on screen it's like but

29:21

why? Yeah. I think it's everything. And

29:23

there's so much energy you have to give it

29:25

because like you said it's very hard to even

29:27

get things commissioned and funded so when you do

29:30

then you don't rest and go oh it's

29:32

happening you think no I've got to make a success of it

29:34

now. Yeah. Because there's even more

29:36

pressure but I can never relate to when

29:39

other people who are married say oh will

29:41

your husband let you do that or do

29:43

you dread ask and I'm like well our

29:45

relationship is like we encourage each other and

29:47

wherever he wants to do something if I

29:49

can enable it I will and vice versa

29:51

I know I've got that support too. Yeah.

29:54

Yeah I know it's just a weird. What if it's family? Yeah.

29:57

What if it's family? Yeah. Yeah.

30:00

But I think it's a bit... It's

30:02

an insect though, isn't it? I know

30:04

the stuff you like to do, so I

30:06

don't encroach on that time. I make sure

30:08

I'm with the kids and then I know

30:10

you'll reciprocate the energy. You know

30:13

what's interesting to me about that actually, and this was something

30:15

I've been thinking about quite a lot recently, is that quite

30:17

a lot of women I know who work

30:19

still feel guilty about

30:21

going to work and not being

30:24

with their children all the time. My mum... I never

30:26

imagined a life that I would just be

30:28

at home. I mean, I think if you want

30:31

to do that and you're able to do that, then more power to

30:33

you to do it every once. But to

30:35

me, working parents, that's how I grew

30:37

up. How do you play the rent? And you said your mum

30:39

was a teacher. I never really gave up. My mum was a

30:41

teacher. So you both

30:43

saw the same thing, someone getting up, marking books,

30:45

going out every day. You went to work. I

30:47

came and cooked. This is how I let's cook.

30:50

We had one car. So one person was walking,

30:52

one person got to go with the other parent.

30:55

We walked home from school to an empty house, had

30:57

our own key on a string. Yeah.

30:59

And I had a great childhood, you know, it was brilliant.

31:01

But it was just everything was

31:04

logistical and like both parents had to work.

31:06

Yeah. For me, it's given me a real

31:08

drive, the expectation that I can get out

31:10

in the world and do anything and be

31:12

a mother and have friends and,

31:14

you know, be many things at

31:17

many times. We're all multifaceted individuals,

31:19

hopefully. Do you know what was amazing for

31:21

me, right? Because our eldest, she's going to

31:24

turn 10 on Thursday. She's really into like

31:26

writing and poetry. And she wrote this poem

31:28

about Rich, right? And it's what you start

31:30

to realise how your kids observe you and

31:32

know. They know your kids know who you

31:34

are. Don't they? They know what you do,

31:36

like good and bad. And the

31:38

poem ended with, thanks for

31:40

always having mums back in everything she

31:42

does. And we were both like,

31:44

oh, my God. I was touching when you said

31:47

that. She obviously sees it, doesn't she? They're like

31:49

little sponges, isn't they? Of course. And that's beautiful,

31:51

because that's what she will expect in a relationship.

31:53

That's what we were talking about. Yeah. And

31:56

this whole shallow side of life,

31:58

you have to engage in the shallow side. side

32:00

of showbiz to promote your project and get people

32:02

to watch them write. But sometimes those events can

32:04

be awful where you know people are looking over

32:06

your shoulder for the better person to talk to.

32:09

Oh I can't stand it, you talk to them

32:11

and they're like yeah. And it's just like, it's

32:13

a little bit soul destroying. Absolutely. I feel like

32:15

for you, you hate them and they're like, so what

32:17

do you do? And then it's like, well, he does

32:19

everything, you know. But if it's not a thing that

32:21

they can't put in a box or that it doesn't

32:24

help them, it's not going to further down the head.

32:27

It's interesting because actually every person

32:29

you meet and speak to helps you if you

32:31

let them in. You let them in. Because you

32:34

know you don't know what you're going to love

32:36

in that human city. That fucking question, what do

32:38

you do? Because I've been working

32:40

for a long time, I didn't get so much what do you do.

32:42

I got what are you up to at the moment? I'm

32:46

there. You've done

32:48

nothing. My fault. You're

32:51

like, I'm here having anxiety. I'm

32:54

having a panic attack in front of you. I'm

33:02

going to see that you did about, you know, taking

33:05

shame off aging and how every year is a

33:08

gift and all these things that we know. But

33:10

it's very different to apply them to your thinking

33:12

and your living. But watching my

33:14

auntie turn 60 and my

33:16

mother turn 60 last year and they are both

33:18

not only in the most successful times of their

33:20

entire careers, which is unprecedented,

33:23

but also joyful and grateful. And, you know,

33:25

we've lost people when you get to these

33:27

ages, you lose people. Important

33:30

pillars of your life go like that in

33:32

a second. And it's so strange

33:34

how you can't take that and then just know

33:36

that aging is a gift. Yeah. Of course you

33:39

do sometimes. But then I still I do still

33:41

have a lot of fear about being

33:43

in the decade of my 40s. How

33:46

do you guys feel about it? You've done it.

33:48

You're about to. I'm excited. Yeah,

33:51

I thought it was on really good now. Over the

33:53

last five years, I've really started we started living. We

33:55

have. Yeah. And live in the last five years. And now

33:57

I just want to see what the next. I'll try to.

34:00

I mean, I just

34:02

feel like for me,

34:05

I think maybe it's slightly different from

34:07

men because I think

34:18

the women, the shame is like your worst

34:20

is in your appearance and only

34:22

use is attractive. And that's really

34:24

what the message is coming from society. So

34:26

I've already dealt with all that when I

34:28

was in my 20s. It was

34:30

like rapidly aging anyway. So I'm like,

34:33

whilst you're worrying in your own little

34:35

world about being another 12 months older,

34:37

someone's whole world has just stopped somewhere

34:39

and they don't have that privilege. It's

34:41

over. Everything's finished. You know, they've had

34:43

their terminal diagnosis in their 30s or

34:45

whatever it is. So I always feel

34:47

like, how dare I, who am I

34:50

to not lap this up and live?

34:52

And I think, especially in this

34:54

industry, you meet so many men and women

34:56

that have just started their career in their

34:58

60s and their peak time. This one's probably

35:00

at 55. So you never know what's coming

35:03

up. And we're all one form phone call

35:07

away from some life changing job or,

35:09

yeah, I think it looks different of

35:11

like, do you remember being young?

35:16

And you thought like, your mum's friends

35:18

were old and they were 40. Yeah,

35:20

you remember them friends when they

35:22

all turned 30 and they were actually like, they wanted to kill

35:24

themselves. And we were like, yeah, totally. Yeah.

35:27

I think people dressed just

35:29

for it and more like

35:31

formal clothes.

35:33

Women looked more formal. The

35:35

parents, the parents, like 42. Yeah.

35:38

I think we're turning 40 a

35:42

really lucky time because there actually has been

35:44

a massive shift. And as broadcasters, female broadcasters,

35:46

Katie, I feel like I'm only just fucking

35:49

beginning. I don't feel like, yeah, I would

35:51

not be working at this age. And I've

35:53

never felt more successful already

35:55

for more. I totally agree. And

35:57

I feel like it's a long slot. as

36:00

well. So I'm like, you know, you can feel

36:02

sort of everything's going well, then actually you can

36:04

have a quiet period where you feel like you've

36:07

gone backwards as well. But I feel like the

36:09

older I get the more my boundaries come in

36:11

place, the more confident I get. So it's only

36:13

a good thing. Like going backwards will be catastrophic

36:15

for me. So when you talk about boundaries, do

36:18

you mean about what you prepare to do? What

36:20

are the things that you say yes to,

36:22

things you say no to, things you work

36:24

towards? I think it's also worrying about upsetting

36:26

people. So that kind of like slims down

36:28

the no's and makes more yeses, you know,

36:30

and realizing, oh they hate you

36:32

anyway. So just say no. I

36:34

can't really say.

36:37

Whether they hate me or love me or whatever, I

36:39

don't want to do that. You do

36:41

enough things, you do things enough times that you're not into.

36:44

To understand it's like I would rather

36:46

be at home reading a book

36:48

or getting ready for the next thing that I really want

36:50

to do. They spent two days as a bunch of people

36:52

I don't want to be with, doing something I don't want

36:55

to do. And trying to find an opinion about something I

36:57

don't care about. But

37:00

this comes into, my

37:02

friend said to me last year, she went, maybe next year

37:04

you won't be on screen so much. I was like shut

37:06

the fuck up. I'm dead, that's so

37:08

unfair, that's mean. And then this year

37:10

I was like, maybe I won't be.

37:12

And what would that look like? I just have

37:14

a bit more of a life and, you

37:17

know, well, I know you like

37:19

affirmations. Oh yes, I've

37:21

got my affirmations list, I was thinking, I wonder

37:24

if you... Do you like them as well then?

37:26

I can't live without them, they changed my life.

37:28

What's a powerful word of the past? What

37:31

you say, what comes out of your

37:33

mouth and lands out in the universe,

37:35

has power and anything. What you say

37:37

inside your head to yourself has power

37:39

and energy. I'm always saying to her,

37:41

change the language. Yeah, because it's like

37:43

the soul shows on the body and

37:46

you think people are picking up on it. And absolutely

37:48

they are picking up on that energy and that fire.

37:50

Because you're putting it out there, whether you say it

37:52

or not, even if you're just thinking, you think, oh

37:54

no one knows. In fact they do because they can

37:56

feel it in the air between you and them. And

37:58

you know we were shifting it when we were... I do not chase,

38:00

I attract, what belongs to me will

38:03

simply find me. I

38:20

do like that and I do think it's true

38:22

because you can over-seek and then you feel disappointed.

38:27

I already have because then

38:29

it's also it's like that's in live it that's living

38:31

in the not have isn't it which is like a

38:33

frequency you put out I don't have I don't have.

38:36

Well you always talk about this in

38:38

our marriage and becoming parents it's like

38:40

the more happy you get the more

38:42

the book the goalpost changes your happiness

38:44

just creates more and more expectation right

38:46

actually more pressure instead of saying I'm

38:49

freaked out I'm worried I'm worried we

38:51

say I'm very curious about

38:53

how this might turn out. I'm

38:56

in the car instead of

38:59

that I'm a bit nervous it

39:01

would have been like okay I think I'm quite

39:03

curious about today and there's something that comes like

39:05

oh I wonder what will happen. But it's quite

39:07

nice it's just one word shifts your

39:09

whole energy and therefore your perspective and therefore

39:12

your expectations. We try and do it with

39:14

the kids don't we? Oh that's good they're

39:16

not interested. They

39:18

will get amazing times

39:21

when they always just go

39:23

you know my mum and dad used to do

39:25

affirmations with us. How is raising daughters guys?

39:27

I actually love raising daughters. You

39:29

wanted a son then? I did want a son originally I did want

39:32

a son. I don't know why I don't know whether I

39:34

grew up that stereotypical oh we have a boy we've been

39:36

taking football. We can do this with him but having two

39:39

little girls doing their hair her

39:41

house is a much better atmosphere. Nice

39:44

energy. It's like you feel the energy and the love.

39:46

Did you grow up with lots of women? Yeah my

39:48

brother got one brother one sister put loads of aunties.

39:51

I can tell this is what it's about is that

39:53

you've got like a total like like

39:55

son of many many women. You've

40:00

got that man of good

40:02

women, right? What

40:05

do you hope for in this next part of your life?

40:08

Well, I suppose for me, before

40:11

lockdown, I would always answer that

40:13

question with professional ambitions. And

40:16

I just think actually the only thing that got

40:18

me through lockdown was family and thinking, thank God

40:20

I'm not one of those people that doesn't have

40:22

my health, you know, having it. So I don't

40:25

always want it to be this long thing of like, I'm going

40:27

to do this and take over the world. Because I don't know

40:29

at the end of the day, what does any of that really

40:32

mean? It's just kind of

40:34

like self-fulfilling ego, really. You know, I want

40:36

to provide for my family. I want to

40:38

financially be able to give my kids,

40:41

you know, health education. But

40:43

I suppose it's just to stay

40:45

close as they become teenagers. And I

40:48

don't think I think I've been a good mum. I do. I

40:51

have some regrets at the beginning where

40:54

I probably took a lot of jobs and I feel

40:56

like I missed out on some stuff. And

40:58

that is a thing that sort of fits with me.

41:00

But in the last sort of like seven, eight years,

41:02

I've been very present. So I want to make sure

41:05

like the teen years I'm there because that's

41:07

when my life started to unravel. And

41:09

I was quite a rebellious teen. So I am

41:12

quite apprehensive about how this is going to go.

41:14

The teenage years. I'm not going to lie. I'm

41:16

not going to lie. It's hard. You're worried about

41:18

meeting your teenage self. Well, yeah.

41:20

I mean, I literally gave birth.

41:22

And my mum was like, yes,

41:24

so I kind of understand everything.

41:27

And I'm really sorry about everything. I

41:29

just realized I've got this responsibility, this new

41:32

love that I've never felt. My

41:35

mum said to me, she was being awful one day. My

41:37

mum went, what? And

41:40

she went, wow, just thinking you get the children you deserve.

41:45

Whatever. I

41:47

mean, that's why you were a scented

41:50

angel. Thank you so much for coming

41:52

to our table. It's

41:56

so nice to have you two here. Do

42:00

you like pancakes? Yeah, that

42:02

was superb in pancakes. I

42:05

don't want you to do any other interviews with Katie. I want this

42:07

to be the only one you want to do. Not

42:11

everybody's as fabulous as us. Why do

42:13

I always have this much fun written on? I

42:15

want you to know that. Katie,

42:18

thank you for coming. Thank you

42:20

for coming as well, Katie. Yeah, you're welcome.

42:24

I'm so sweet and you've become rich. I

42:30

don't feel like this. So

42:36

I think we might have to put in

42:38

a request to just clone Richie's

42:41

for many, many people often down the country.

42:43

So many women I know could do with the

42:45

Richie's. So many people could do with the Richie's.

42:47

It's just got the nicest energy, just like easy

42:50

going, but like solid, like just the

42:52

proper, proper salt of the earth. Good

42:54

human being. We love that. I don't

42:56

think there's many people in the country

42:58

who don't know who Katie Piper is

43:00

now. Right. A really quite well-known

43:02

woman. Yes, yes. And everyone knows so much about

43:05

her story. It's probably quite, you know, it's exposing

43:07

people know the hardest shit you've been through. Yeah.

43:11

Everyone knows about the first one. I'm so impressed

43:13

by her actually because she turned that,

43:15

that could have been her only story.

43:18

Yeah. That could have been the only

43:20

thing people knew about, but she took that and turned

43:22

it into power and positivity.

43:24

I care. I love

43:26

for others. I love the fact that she, the

43:29

work that she does, I didn't really know about

43:31

all the work from the foundation. I thought that

43:33

was so interesting. And the work that she does

43:35

with women in prison, I think is even more

43:37

fascinating. Well, this is interesting because she does so

43:39

many different documentaries about so many different topics that

43:42

are all very much rooted in what she believes

43:44

and what she cares about. But she does a

43:46

lot of work that no one knows about. Yes.

43:49

There's a lot of work that's unseen. Yeah. And

43:51

she just, she gives the shit. She gives

43:53

the shit. She really gives the shit. It's

43:56

the earliest anyone's ever come over. I quite liked having a brunch. I liked

43:58

having a brunch. I mean, you... You

44:00

managed quite well with the sweet and savoury being

44:02

near each other. Obviously.

44:04

But you had

44:06

your little dirty mate Richie

44:09

pouring maple syrup over his mushrooms. I thought

44:11

I saw at one point maple syrup

44:13

on the bacon and the mushroom.

44:15

But not on the mushroom. But

44:18

then, a little insight from everyone. When

44:20

Katie and Richie were leaving and we were putting

44:22

their boxes together because we give everyone a couple

44:24

words to take home. I think they had two

44:26

sweet boxes right? Pancakes, bacon,

44:29

fruit, syrup, fine. And

44:31

then Mum was like, just stick the mushrooms in there. Me and

44:33

Katie looked at each other horrified. She was

44:36

like, I'm trying to raise my kids right, Andy

44:38

Oliver. So I gave them a separate mushroom

44:40

box and a separate roast tomato box. And that's

44:42

how it should be. So nobody needs to worry.

44:44

That's how it should be. The sweet didn't touch

44:46

the savoury for too long. But it's a particularly

44:48

rainy Tuesday morning and again we say thank you

44:50

to Staring It Up to have beautiful

44:52

new people coming to our home and shine the

44:55

light. Let the light pour in. Check

45:25

out the new documentary Freak Naked, the

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wildest party never told about the iconic

45:29

Atlanta Street party. And

45:32

Don't Miss FX's Shogun, a reimagining

45:34

of the epic tale starring Anna

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Sawai. So,

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what are you waiting for? We'll

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stream something new on hold. ACAS

45:45

powers the world's best podcast.

45:48

Here's the show that we recommend. Hello,

45:52

hello. It's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty.

45:55

Join me each week for unfiltered

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We break down lots of myths in

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