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Mhm Hello,

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Hello and welcome everyone to pod beans,

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june storytelling podcast week,

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live panel episode Stories of pride.

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We are so excited to be with you here today.

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We have an amazing lineup. Our host moxie koppel is here.

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I'm gonna read our brief intro and then I will hand it off so get ready everyone welcome back everyone to storytelling podcast week and our june roundtable stories of pride with Nicholas mcinerney of Rainbow Dad's ana de Shaun of the cube and dr s of the upcoming behind closed doors podcast.

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For those of you who may be joining us for the first time storytelling podcast week has livestream sessions like this one with top podcasters and storytellers from scripted fiction and nonfiction podcasts from around across the world,

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around the world and our imaginations. We also have exclusive recorded episodes on the storytelling podcast week,

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podcast, storytelling podcast week is brought to you by post.

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I mean we are a podcast host monetizing platform and home to over 600,000 podcasts to start your podcast.

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Head over to pod bean dot com today and now we'll hand it off to our host of this livestream Nazi doubtful of the high ni podcast.

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Hello Mattie Hello and welcome. Hello,

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thank you norma and welcome to everybody.

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I hope you're all having a good day. Mhm Right,

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hope it's pretty all right at least and happy pride.

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Oh my gosh! Um you all have any plans for for the month or have had have had like little events beforehand.

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I I do. Um I'm launching the second series of Rainbow Dads on friday.

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I have a play play reading which is part of the pride festival on,

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on the sunday and in London we have the main pride March the following weekend and I shall be marching on that.

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So yes, Yeah,

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how about you dr s and and anna sorry,

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is it anna or anna? Anna?

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And okay, I just want to make sure because you know and yeah,

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I appreciate you asking. Absolutely.

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Yeah. And any plans are just like chilling this,

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this, this week, this month,

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there is no chill in june so it is um go go but in the best possible ways,

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so grateful for all the opportunities to speak on panels like this one um to talk about the work that we're doing and the people were amplifying and uplifting so june has just been full of that.

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If I started naming things I'd leave someone and I feel awful but it's been jam packed and just looking to spend more time with family and community during this time.

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Yeah, that's amazing and doctor is,

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how about you? Yeah,

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I feel the opposite june has had to be chilled for me um because I teach and I teach on the quarter schedule and so it's been ridiculous and so I have taken some time in june after graduation to just kind of be with family and and take it easy before things kind of kick back up.

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So no, no pride things for me.

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Um I think I aged out of it a little while ago,

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That's fair. But yeah, I'm so glad that you're able to spend time with family anyway.

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And yeah, so I will start with the first question just because um,

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this is a fun one, basically just talk about your podcast,

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like what's your podcast about and anything you want to talk about and there's no like specific order.

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So whoever wants to go first, please let me know,

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sure I can jump in, Happy to do so.

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So, so my podcast is called queer news and so I report on three queer news stories every single day that are at the intersections of race and sexuality as it pertains to politics,

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culture and entertainment. And this is goodness knows how many podcasts or shows I've had over the years,

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but this one has been extra special and bringing me a lot of joy because I feel like the stories that we tell,

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our stories that are here that are being told often and we have the opportunity not to move along in new cycles.

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We can continue to uplift things and stories that we want to continue to uplift.

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And so that's bringing me a lot of joy right now.

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Um For example, it's like 123 days that Brittney Griner has been wrongfully detained.

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Right? And so this is a story that we continue to amplify on our podcast until until someone brings her home.

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So it's, it's bringing me a lot of joy. So queer news is my podcast.

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That's amazing. How about you Nicholas and dr s who would like to go next?

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I'll jump in then.

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Um so the newly formed podcast that I'm co hosting is called behind closed doors and I'm an academic.

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So right now it's behind closed doors and there's a colon.

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We're still figuring out what, what will come after that colon,

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but there will be something to follow.

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And right now we're focused on um amplifying,

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reflecting and transforming lives through storytelling and specifically focused on black queer and trans folks.

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And and this season in particular black queer and trans masculine masculine of center men um specifically and really telling stories related to religion and substance use and families were really excited about this podcast.

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And really excited for folks to hear it when it comes out,

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it'll be on the cube.

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Oh, wonderful. And how about you Nicholas?

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Well, I came to podcasting through writing because I'm a writer and I wrote a series For the BBC Radio four called how to have a perfect marriage,

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which was about a married man who came out comes out in mid life and it was very biographical.

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Um and of all of the things that I've written for the BBC for for the radio,

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it was by far the most by far the most impact in that obviously there was an audience out there of gay men in marriage.

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Um and it was it fascinating.

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It started a bit of a debate about articles for the british press and um out of that came a friend and colleague who said,

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why don't we try and make a podcast? Um and So we started looking for people who might appear on Rainbow Dad's one.

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And we were very lucky in that we managed to get quite a diverse mix.

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It was obviously very important to have a range of people,

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and then when we put that out again,

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it got the most fantastic response. Um I won I was nominated for a national podcast award,

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I won a Radio Community Award,

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um other charities in the UK around trans and um uh,

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L G B T Q plus um issues got in touch with us.

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There was a sense in which we kind of shifted the debate away,

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but here's the thing, I don't know whether,

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you know, but a very famous um olympic olympic athlete called dame kelly Holmes,

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Who's in her 50s, came out over the weekend.

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This is a big story in the UK, a big story in the U.

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K. And I was rung up by a program on the BBC called the Today Program,

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which is our major news program and asked if I'd be interested to come in to talk about people coming out in later life.

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So I've been very lucky.

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I've become that person that people go to to ask for their opinions on on this subject.

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Now obviously I'm not the only one, but it is interesting that right with remote dads to coming out,

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I really feel there are a whole new range of stories to tell.

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And the rainbow Dads as a as a as a format is one that we want to take forward and um possibly pass over to Rainbow Mums for example,

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for the next series. So I'm hoping that it will evolve into something else.

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Mhm. That sounds wonderful. And yeah,

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we will be showing a clip of Rainbow does in just a moment um Just as a quick,

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even though I am the host, I also just want to quickly um I'm kind of an outlier in this one because my podcast is a horror podcast.

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However, we do have a we do have like a queer cast like in terms of like characters,

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main characters. Um we focus a lot on like um by park which is black indigenous and poc characters who are also mostly queer.

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So um that's kind of why I'm very happy to chat with everybody here.

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Today is a wonderful um it's a wonderful community that everyone's forming all across the world in all different contexts.

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But yeah, we will be showing a clip from rainbow Dads and just in a moment and we will see we were at a function which starts,

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it's a military function in a mess, which is sort of like a club for for certain ranks in the corporal's mess.

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And we've been drinking since about six o'clock in the morning.

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It's about seven o'clock in the evening.

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And had been going around perhaps because maybe I was feeling a little freer,

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Maybe I was this wall of Drinking and I've been drinking for 12 hours.

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But I mean, leading up to this day as well,

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had and somebody actually came and asked me outright and said,

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you know, there's been some rumors going around smudge, are you gay?

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And I thought in my drunken state,

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I thought, well, if he's got the courage to actually ask me outright why what right have I got to deny my brothers that the truth about me.

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And so I said, yes, I am. And he went,

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okay, that's cool. Went back and sat down and I suddenly had this dawning,

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this is it this, this is the next door has now been opened.

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What is going to happen next? And I sat down at the bar and I was feeling this sort of fight and flight.

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What's going to happen next? Is this going to revert back to what it was like at school?

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Am I going to be accepted? Is there gonna be a mixture?

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I don't know. And I could see people talking around the room and glancing at me,

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this was this was the rumor mill was spreading and two of the biggest,

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most aggressive individuals in that mess,

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then made a beeline forming. And I remember gripping my point glass a little bit tighter grabbing the stool underneath me making sure my feet could touch the floor in case I needed to start swinging things.

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And they both walked over and they both stuck out their hands and shook my hands.

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Said if you've got the balls to come out as gay in the corporal's mess of the infantry we are right behind you every step of the way.

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And that was it. That was awesome.

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That was great.

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Um Yeah so that was a clip from Rainbow Dads and I would you like to say anything about it before?

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Well a little bit of context. That was from my first interview Alistair smudges his name who um who had had gone into the army.

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I mean I don't know what the history of L.

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G. B. T. Q. Representation of the american army is but I do know in the U.

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K. That it was only relatively recently that the rules have been changed.

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And obviously Alistair gone into the army it was his life.

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But he really and he got marriage but he realized he was gay.

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So this was the moment when he actually first told some of his colleagues and of course their response was so much more generous and tolerant and understanding than he I was expecting.

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Um So it was a big moment for him and as it is for anyone when they finally declare their truth.

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Um, and it was fascinating and he's now an advocate for LGBT um uh personnel in the army,

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he's made up part of his career. So what at one point seemed like a real um uh immense thing for him to have to come to terms with has turned into this wonderful strength.

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That's awesome. And yeah,

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I like that definitely took a lot of courage.

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I agree with the two big men.

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That was brilliant, that description.

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That's awesome. And yeah,

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so for the next question again,

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this is for everybody whoever wants to jump in first.

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Um the question is, and I think we've kind of touched on it a little bit already,

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but how has being queer being part of the LGBTQ plus community um influenced your work specifically?

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Like um uh anything you want to share about your experiences and how it has touched your work in um podcasting in general.

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I'll jump in here. I think we're gonna take turns going first,

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right? Um you know,

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so as a black queer and trans person like that,

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those identities and many others are kind of central to everything that I do.

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So I've mentioned that I'm an academic, so all of my academic writing really looks at um gender and sexuality and identity development and race.

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Um and so I'm consistently trying to like queer things up or live in the gray and I think related to this podcast,

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part of the reason that we wanted to do this is because as a trans person who had,

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you know, I transitioned, wow,

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I think it's been over seven years ago at this point,

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a lot of the stories that we sort of hear about trans people focus on those early transition moments and like Body changes and hormones and surgeries and things.

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And as someone who's been married 14 years,

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like I said, transitioned over seven years ago,

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I wanted to talk about some other things related to queerness and trans nous um that we deal,

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with you know, buying a house, starting a family um navigating religion and spirituality and so you know,

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got with a friend and as we started to talk about the things that we were interested in and the things that we were curious about,

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we figured other folks would want to hear these stories too,

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and other folks would um sort of need to hear these stories and so I think just being queer,

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being trans, like influenced the topics,

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it influenced the timing, influence the people that we wanted to bring on,

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and it's you know, just central to how I approach all of my work.

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Yeah, that's wonderful. And if I can just piggyback and tag team with dr s right here,

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I mean so much of what he said is true for me too,

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and my work has been queer since I started doing this work And when I started the radio station um three radio back in 2009,

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it was to tell the stories of black queer folks here in Chicago and around the country because our stories weren't being told and I felt like I wasn't the only one who wanted to hear them,

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right. And so as that has been a passion project for over a decade and now transitioning that work into the cube,

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right? This curated hub of discovery of bipod and Q T pod podcasts and music.

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It's just at the heart of where I'm most passionate and so my identities and living at the intersections makes up who I am,

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right, gives me all these superpowers and also the social location and perspective that many people don't hold.

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And so if we cannot speak,

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you know, um, for ourselves, who will speak for us and I think storytelling and oral histories is how we've survived this long.

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It's how people see our humanity. And so podcasting gives us the opportunity to do that.

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And so I am just ecstatic that behind closed doors is gonna be exclusively on the cube.

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I'm ecstatic that they're my friends and I know these amazing humans in the world doing good work.

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And I think it's amazing that we have the opportunity that technology and communications have come together where we don't have to lean in or wait on mentoring folks to do or to tell our stories to represent us,

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that we have the power to represent ourselves and and today we can do that.

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And so I'm just grateful to be fired up about doing that work because it's not easy to be so vulnerable all the time and storytelling is is vulnerable.

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So I'm grateful for that. But it has everything to do with my work.

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That's fascinating because of course I can see from your lovely face.

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Is that your fresh face a little bit younger than me.

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So I'm 60.

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So I, you know, my experience of being a sex,

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being sexually confused young youngster at a boarding school in the UK.

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I meant that I came from a generation for whom all of these issues that you talk about so beautifully and freely were just so much more problematic,

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so much more problematic. So When you asked me how is being a queer creator influenced my work up to the age of 45,

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I was probably repressing it a great deal.

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Um you know, I got married, I got two wonderful daughters.

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I don't regret any of that for a moment.

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But certainly in terms of my work, I wanted to be a writer and yet I wasn't doing what anna has just talked about,

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no telling my story. I was being very professional and being very good and I wrote for a lot for television and stage and whatever,

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but I wasn't writing about what was really coming from inside here.

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And so it wasn't until I came out and I had I literally swapped one kind of life for another,

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which is quite a scary thing to do when you're middle aged,

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you know, the divorce and my Children's response and all of that,

18:27

but subsequent to that, I think I've kind of gradually kind of gone from kind of,

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you know, baby steps to PhD and queerness in a short space of time,

18:36

thank you. You know,

18:38

and and and in all of the intersectional issues that you've talked about,

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you know, become a lot more as indeed has I think many people have over the last,

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you know, 5, 10 years become very invested and interested in that and what I can learn as well.

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So, you know, the podcast,

18:57

I mean, even when I, you know, I adapted a novella by a very famous french writer called collect for radio and that was about um a middle aged woman,

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bisexual middle aged woman in France,

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you know, um and and so the subjects I'm kind of drawn towards all about exploring that what dr escort the Gray,

19:17

the wonderful Gray, you know, that kind of,

19:19

that kind of complicated world of of of of of of kind of human sexuality and human sexual response.

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And it's been wonderful for me, it's been an extraordinary liberation,

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you know, extraordinary liberation and,

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you know, I'm I'm I'm very,

19:37

very You know,

19:40

it was very scary to come out of 45.

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Well, it's scary at any time for anybody. I appreciate that.

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But you know, you can and also when you come out you kind of think this is going to solve everything,

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don't you think I am going to say who I am?

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It's gonna be alright from now?

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But actually we're just the same people, aren't we, with the same problems and issues and whatever.

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It's just that we it's just that we declare our truth and we do it every day and we want to support other people.

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That's the other thing. You want to support other people in doing that.

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So it's um that has that has has and I'm writing,

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you know, I've finding a fascinating subject to write about.

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I hope to find subjects in the future that will also explore that that kind of that kind of intersection.

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Mhm. These are all I love everyone's answers because kind of they touch on a lot of like things that we don't really consider um when it comes to the community and when it comes to like representation and everything um dr s mentioned just the like the mundane parts of like you know,

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living your truth, but also just being like buying a house and like just all the base like,

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you know, all the stuff like how does this feel and what's the slight differences and what's like the same for like people who aren't like in the community,

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it's a nice look into the life and I kind of want to relate to that,

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because in our podcast as I mentioned before,

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it was it is a horror podcast. Um I enjoy genre fiction and I think my um niche in terms of storytelling is that I love just any kind of stories,

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I just make sure that there's always either um a bunch of queer characters or all of them are,

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and we kind of just and we see where that goes in terms of storytelling.

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Like I enjoy genre fiction,

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where in most if not all the characters are part of the queer community and that's kind of like,

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it's it's a little bit different from, you know,

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talking about like your own life and like your own experiences,

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but I think in that way as well, it's like,

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it shows that we all have basically different areas of not expertise,

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but like things that we love and kind of like we we we show a little bit of who we are in,

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the things that we love, and I think it's wonderful because like as you mentioned,

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Nicholas um you have got this access to a lot of like very mainstream um you know,

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like uh resources and places to like tell the story and um and and dr s you have like made your own like um place in which you can tell these stories and like all around like this is a very like well rounded group that shows just how much like where everyone wants to share their story.

22:17

And I think that's amazing. Can I just can I just emphasize anna made a point about storytelling?

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I wrote it down here. I teach creative writing,

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it's all about telling stories um and pod the podcasting has allowed for a democratization of storytelling and that's the and it's taken it away from the from the gatekeepers,

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the traditional gatekeepers. And it's allowed people to tell their own stories.

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The challenge of course, is once we've told our stories is allowing other people access to those stories.

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Finding our audience, your audience is out there.

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But sometimes it's difficult to access them.

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That is the challenge. But what is wonderful is that those stories are being told now.

23:02

And I think this is probably the first time in the kind of media history that this is that has actually happened.

23:09

Mhm. And can I can we just keep going with this conversation?

23:12

Because I think I think this is at the heart of why um pa being wanted to have this conversation in private month because that accessibility was just not possible,

23:23

right? It was just not possible.

23:25

And today it is. And so it's really also at the heart of why I wanted to start the Q.

23:31

Because when I look right at Apple and Spotify with hosting three million podcasts and I go into these applications and I don't see myself represented or I don't see the podcasts that I listened to represented on the homepage or discovery,

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right? I'm wondering where we are,

23:49

right? Because today representation still matters even though we have the access representation still matters.

23:54

And the discovery of podcast is still very much so a challenge.

23:59

And so this idea that we can create a hub where people can find and discover some of these amazing podcasts by black indigenous people of color while also centering queer trans people of color content I think is long overdue.

24:14

And I'm just grateful to be a steward of this and to see what we can make of this because to Nicholas point um there are so many stories to tell,

24:26

right? He's teaching creative writing,

24:28

doctor? S nose um with his students.

24:30

Like there's a hunger, right?

24:32

I mean the generations today that are after ours,

24:36

they're used to telling stories like social media is about a story and and now and that was just like how can we hone those skills that they've learned so organically into the beginning,

24:47

middle and end of a story and to having some really great equipment and hit and published right?

24:54

And sharing that with a lot of people and sharing that with their audience.

24:57

I mean, I think, gosh,

24:59

I mean it's right at our fingertips if we can just hone in on it.

25:02

Mhm. And I just want to add on that the wonderful thing about all this is that when you build a community,

25:08

that's when other people who feel like they don't have quite as much access,

25:12

like they, even though, you know, they can put it online and they can do it themselves.

25:16

Um some people are still very intimidated by just the size,

25:20

like you know, there's so many podcasts,

25:23

they feel as though their story uh won't matter like even though it will and they feel as though like nobody wants to hear it even though someone will always want to hear it.

25:33

So the fact that you have the cube and you have like hubs in which like somebody might see,

25:38

oh people might actually want to hear my story,

25:40

Let me come, let me go to these people who have already established themselves a little more.

25:44

I think that's so important like having a community like online,

25:48

which I think is amazing and yeah,

25:51

I do, I'll go on to the next question,

25:53

but it's kind of we already kind of touched on it, so I think this is just for,

25:57

you know, um catching up with anything else you want to add on this.

26:01

And the question basically comes down to um we all like we as you know,

26:06

queer and by park and you know, creators have different lived experiences that are always centered and um what stories or themes are you excited about sharing that wasn't like previously showcased that aren't properly represented in your eyes,

26:23

Like what other um types of stories,

26:25

what other um parts of you that you want to see more represented more in mainstream and just in general anyone.

26:38

Uh well I mean I I try not to take up too much space,

26:43

but uh one thing we're doing at the cube is what we're calling cuba originals and those podcasts are really at the heart of the stories that I think are missing from from the canon of podcast today.

26:58

So including behind closed doors,

27:00

which for the first season is centered on male identified and masculine center identified stories,

27:05

which I think is incredibly important. I don't think there's enough stories or enough podcasts.

27:10

I focus on men and their experiences and their lived experiences,

27:16

but there's another podcast that we're creating called Second Sunday that is centering the experiences of black queer folks in the church uh and specifically the church here in the US people just are not ready for this conversation around uh Nicholas,

27:33

I think you said it liberation right? What it means to be liberated from an oppressive system,

27:39

right? And in religion in so many ways has harmed queer folks across the board.

27:48

And so what does it mean to still associate yourself or maybe not associate yourself with a system that you grew up in that you feel it's a great connection to that you still in some rays revere but also has caused you so much incredible harm.

28:02

And so they're having their talking to some uh the most notable black L.

28:07

G. B. T. Q. Theologians and lay people writers on queer issues and religion around the country.

28:12

And I just can't wait for folks to hear these stories because it's beautiful and you can feel it.

28:18

Um and that's a story that we don't talk about enough.

28:23

I agree for sure. And yeah I come from the Philippines which is a catholic which is a majority catholic country.

28:31

So I totally understand. Um I know a lot of people who are very much still catholic very religious but are also part of the queer community and how that like pertains to how they have to how they have to act but also how they choose to act and it's a very interesting balance and it's beautiful in a lot of ways.

28:49

Like I still go I still like to go to church just for the music.

28:54

Everyone wants to get a church at christmas to sing some carols cultural.

29:00

I consider myself a cultural christian, my boarding school.

29:04

I was at church three times a week and I kind of admire people who have a faith sometimes.

29:08

But I think anna is absolutely right. It's such a complex deeply kind of difficult relationship.

29:14

Um uh and in the black community I think it must be actually fascinating to that's that's a podcast I would certainly want to listen to because I do think because interestingly enough I've just written a play which is about a very set within the king community partly within the kink community,

29:30

and it's somebody dying and his relationship with his black middle aged nurse,

29:35

because I think there's a really interesting area between gay men and black women.

29:42

It's not unproblematic, but I do think it's fascinating.

29:45

What is that connection? So that's something I would certainly be interested to explore more interesting.

29:51

I just produced a podcast for pod being um because I think masculinity,

29:56

somebody mentioned masculinity. Yes, anna again,

29:58

and of course, you're absolutely right.

30:00

There needs to be more podcasts by um about masculinity.

30:06

And my friend, a very good friend has written an erotic memoir,

30:09

which is about him becoming part of awful phrase through people.

30:16

Yes. Try it, what do you call it?

30:19

What do you call it? I mean, I don't know, and he's a he's a he's not he's not he's certainly not a he's he's heteronormative some of these phraseology I find difficult,

30:32

but he sent it to publishers. Now, publishers think that it's brilliant,

30:36

but they don't think of the current climate that they can publish a book by a cis man about neurotic memoir.

30:44

This is very ironic because actually we actually need more men from that background,

30:49

writing about sex and feelings.

30:52

We actually need more people coming forward with these stories.

30:56

So that the vulnerability that um Anna has talked about which is at the heart of this can connect with an audience.

31:06

And it's very interesting.

31:08

So he's got a podcast coming out and publicly called called Public,

31:12

excuse me on pod being called, I mean right about this,

31:14

which I produced. Um and um he spoke to some really great uh writer's a writer called Monique Rafi who just won a big prize in the UK and a woman called lucy Holiday has written about erotic memoirs.

31:26

It's a fascinating area, really fascinating.

31:30

So, those are the and also as a speaking as an older person,

31:33

obviously I'm interested in that as well. You know,

31:36

that that notion of of of of elders of the community respect,

31:42

you know, you know, you get to a point in your life you think I've got any useful wisdom to pass on to younger people now is the time to to to share it.

31:53

Um and uh I would like to explore that more because I do think there's enormous reservoirs of wisdom uh and in queer history,

32:02

you know, we got pride coming up this huge controversy over the corporatization of pride in the U.

32:08

K. I don't I'm sure you have some of the same debates.

32:10

Um and it's um it's a very it's a very,

32:15

you know, it's an issue which seems to generate more heat and light every year,

32:19

but it's certainly the notion of the elders,

32:21

I'd be really interested to. Yeah,

32:24

I feel like you all have sort of pulled on the things that I would say to,

32:29

so this this point about elders um you know,

32:33

we we had pre conversations with folks that we're gonna interview and one of our folks as an elder and just like hearing their stories were like we want next season,

32:42

maybe it's all about elders, right? Black queer elders in the community because some of those stories are getting lost because we're not writing them down right into Anna's point earlier around oral histories.

32:54

I think that is a way that we preserve some of the legacies and and the histories and so definitely want to tap into the elders.

33:03

I also am thinking about Polly.

33:05

Right? So again, one of our guests is someone who identifies as Polly and talking about different kinds of relationships,

33:12

structures that are not only negative.

33:16

I think we often hear these stories about three apples or poly relationships.

33:22

Um and it's it gets fetishized.

33:25

Um and and it's presented in a way that doesn't really attend to like the the nuances and like the love that is can be captured there.

33:36

And so wanting to to hear more of those stories.

33:40

And then I think, you know, the last thing I'll say is this point about moving through.

33:45

So when Anna was talking about folks relationships to like the church and to religion,

33:50

sometimes when we hear those stories, it stops at the point of disconnection,

33:55

right? It's like it's it's as if that's the end of the story or when we have coming out stories is as if the coming out is the end of the story and actually that is really just the beginning and so I want more of these like through like what happens after the coming out,

34:09

what happens after the disruption or the disconnection that is healing.

34:14

That is uplifting. I want those stories that are about you know um families reconnecting or staying connected right?

34:22

I want those stories about you know finding your way in your church community.

34:26

So I think those are a lot of the stories that we're trying to telling the stories that I'm seeking in my own you know,

34:33

podcast um search I guess amen to that.

34:39

Yeah and yeah it's definitely important because I think a lot of Hollywood and just in general has made us think that happy endings are all that matters when honestly like past the happy ending,

34:49

there's gonna be a lot going on. Not all good,

34:52

but the continuing of life I think is a wonderful um topic to cover in a lot of storytelling these days and kind of jumping off of that.

35:01

The next question actually is very,

35:04

I think important to those listening because it is about like other creators and it is about your experience.

35:11

So what are some of the best practices or advice um for other creators to empower them or to center themselves in their storytelling because a lot of people are afraid to do that are afraid to like center their own experiences and their own stories.

35:25

So what's some advice you can give to make them more proud more,

35:29

you know, um confident that their story matters?

35:33

Um, as creators, I'll jump in because I'll say a couple of things,

35:40

I'm sure anna and Nicholas will have some great things to say,

35:44

but I'm thinking about this book that I once read,

35:47

feel the fear and do it anyway. Um and so I think like that is the biggest piece of advice is that there will be fear.

35:54

Um there may not even be confidence,

35:56

right? Like I write pretty often and rarely am I confident in in the beginning at least.

36:03

Um, it takes a few shitty drafts.

36:05

I don't know if I can say that a few bad drafts before I get to a point where I feel more confident where I feel like okay like this,

36:14

this this needs to get out. So I think recognizing and knowing that those are that's part of the process.

36:20

Um and doing it anyway,

36:22

I think surrounding yourself with community and folks who will be cheerleaders and like push you on and and read the drafts and listen to the stories and just help you get at the heart of what you're trying to say is is super important.

36:39

Um, and and also,

36:42

I guess the last thing I'll say is like that this is also healing.

36:45

So even if you never put your story out into the public,

36:49

but you just get it out onto paper or record it,

36:53

there's healing in that. Um for you as the creator.

36:57

Um and and then if you decide to put it out into the world,

37:00

there's also healing that other folks can access.

37:03

So just really thinking about the healing power of stories.

37:10

Can I pick up on something that dr s said?

37:13

I had a fantastic quote by Goethe that used to keep above my above my computer.

37:18

I don't know why I'm going to quote it, right? But he wrote something like boldness has magic in it.

37:22

Start it, Start it now.

37:25

Yes. And there's something about the act which actually starts to give you you act and then the confidence comes.

37:34

That's a that's a life lesson, isn't it really?

37:36

That's so true. Another thing I think is really important.

37:40

I mean, I'm talking about the kind of work that I do with my interviews on the difference between listening and hearing we often hear.

37:48

But do we listen? Because if you listen,

37:50

when you're interviewing somebody, they're going to say something extraordinary or something that they don't even realize.

37:55

It's like a little door into a world.

37:58

Yeah. And then you can pick up on that.

38:02

The other thing I would say a best practice is make your pod try make your podcast as sound as professional as you can because these things may appear superficial,

38:13

but actually podcast is like telling every story is a form of seduction your if an audience was comfortable,

38:20

they give themselves permission to want to listen.

38:22

So music. I think music is important,

38:24

a decent microphone. They're not expensive.

38:27

Yes. The practice with the interviews,

38:29

like dr s suggested getting people to critique what you say and say to them.

38:34

Don't just be my best buddy and say everything's bloody marvelous.

38:37

Tell me if it's shit, Sorry as well as well.

38:39

But you know what I mean, Tell me, because this honesty is going to help.

38:42

So, those are so that's kind of weird mixture,

38:45

isn't it? It's it's it's interviewing skills,

38:48

it's profession, it's a professional because these stories deserve to sound as good as any other stories.

38:53

That's the other thing. But I think the other thing is fantastic.

38:57

I tell my students in my writing, I said there's only really one lesson of writing.

39:01

It's don't get it right, get it written.

39:04

Mhm. Because as soon as you do that,

39:07

as soon as you've done it, once you can do it again, and that's how you get better you right through to the good stuff again.

39:14

Dr s talked about. That's really important.

39:17

Don't get it right, get it written. That's exactly,

39:20

that's awesome. Yeah. I love both of those.

39:24

I mean, I feel everything y'all were saying I when people come to me and they talk about one to start a podcast,

39:30

actually, the shirt I have on, you can't see the whole thing.

39:33

It says change the world, start a podcast,

39:36

it's um to be committed,

39:38

be consistent, be creative and be courageous,

39:41

right? Like if you can do those four things all at the same time,

39:46

right? You start to build this muscle,

39:48

it's just like anything else. Like if you're trying to get all buff in the gym,

39:51

you gotta go back like every day and sometimes you fall off and then you get back on,

39:57

you know, you know what I'm saying?

40:00

But if you go consistently eventually you start to see a little muscle,

40:04

right? And it's the same thing with any of these processes,

40:07

like you have to be committed to it and you have to be courageous in all of it.

40:13

Like the humanity is really seen in the vulnerable moments and so don't be afraid to go there,

40:20

just do it. Just literally go,

40:22

go there and I love it,

40:25

you can't just get it done. Yeah,

40:28

yeah. And yeah, I always tell people like um when they asked me like how how did you get to this point and like I just did it,

40:35

you know, like I just started,

40:38

but I think to your point and it's like,

40:40

the other important thing is like,

40:42

I always forget the second part which is I continued it like starting it is the first big step and it's a,

40:49

it's an amazing step. And even if,

40:51

you know, for some people there are reasons, they can't continue things and that's fine,

40:55

you did it. That's a big thing.

40:57

But continuing something is also another big step and those,

41:01

those are the two big steps to kind of get to success.

41:04

Whether it's really the first time you do it,

41:07

everyone likes it or the fifth time you do it,

41:10

that's when everyone likes it. But you have to do it before it gets done.

41:15

So yeah, like that's amazing.

41:17

Like all of you kind of like put together the entire,

41:21

it's the second difficult album syndrome.

41:25

Everybody can write one album.

41:27

But the real, the real test is the second album,

41:30

isn't it? Do you still have things to say?

41:34

So that's that's that's when you've,

41:36

you know, you've got to put your foot down to the accelerator and really,

41:40

you know, focus um can I add this piece too?

41:46

That it doesn't have to be,

41:49

I think also another beautiful part about podcast.

41:51

It doesn't have to be season after season after season.

41:53

So I know people who have 10 seasons of a podcast,

41:56

I think they are amazing. Okay.

41:58

But I think you can have one season,

42:01

you can have 6 to 8 episodes and get it all out and guess what?

42:06

You can milk those eight episodes for the next 23 years if you want.

42:10

Right? If it's, if it's something,

42:13

if the content is evergreen and it will never get old right.

42:17

Um, and oftentimes storytelling is just like that um dr s or Nicholas or my story will be the same today as it will be three years from now.

42:28

Right? It will still have the same impact. As a matter of fact,

42:30

I'm almost certain this broadcast will still be very relevant far past,

42:35

you know, our live day, you know, And so if you have something to say,

42:40

don't be overwhelmed with this idea that you have to do it every day,

42:44

do it every week, do it every month for eternity.

42:47

Absolutely not do it for a season and see if you want to do it for another season,

42:52

but just but you can start,

42:54

you can start and you can be great at it. Mhm.

42:58

Yeah, can I add something to? I love that,

43:00

Right. It's that one day at a time, one ft in front of the other.

43:04

I think for me, the other thing is your why?

43:07

So why are you doing this? Um you know,

43:10

I'm dr s because I have a PhD and part of why I gotta have a PhD is because I had to remember that,

43:17

why every time it was time to sit down to write that dissertation,

43:20

every time it was time to write a paper,

43:22

like I was like, okay, I'm doing this because I want to have an impact.

43:26

I want to be an educator, right? Like, all these reasons.

43:29

So in your podcast, like why do you want to do this and write it down and put it somewhere that you can see it and refer to it when it gets hard when you don't want to do it when you know you're tired because that also helps to keep you going right so get started keep going and you know look for that inspiration in in your why.

43:50

Yeah I totally agree.

43:55

And I do want to like um since we're kind of like we we I I don't think it will get through everything but I do want to like build on this part of the the question the discussion and I think we should kind of go into like what do you think are the biggest challenges I guess not just like for podcasters and for people in the queer community and kind of like put those together like what do you um what do you think um are the biggest challenges you might face and how have you been able to face them in your own experience?

44:26

Um So like kind of an advice portion but also like just for people to know they're not alone you know?

44:33

So yeah if you would like to jump in please do.

44:43

We're also nice. Were like you go I'm having I'm having a strange young characteristically thoughtful moment when I was trying to think about challenges.

44:53

I feel there's a middle aged white man in the U.

44:55

K. I probably had fewer challenges and some of the other guys.

44:58

I'm absolutely honest but ageism is an interesting thing.

45:04

Um It's almost an acceptable prejudice.

45:08

So um,

45:10

and you know, I play that I've just written is about a gay man in dying of cancer in the late sixties who is a long term HIV patient.

45:19

You've never seen that on the stage. I'm just, I'm diverting a little bit here.

45:23

But I just, it's just the point I want to make about how even within the queer community as you all quite rightly pointed out.

45:29

There are so many, so many stories that we are simply not being shown.

45:36

It is getting better in the U. K. It is getting better.

45:39

And I mean, you know, I think in many respects we follow the US actually because I feel that your representation is far better.

45:46

But there was a big show on Shonda Rhimes of Britain on netflix.

45:51

Yeah. And you know,

45:53

the whole color blind casting in the, in the theater has been been part of theater culture for a while now.

45:59

But to see that in a kind of a jane Austen type story still has still In 2022 has the capacity to make you sit up and think,

46:09

Oh my goodness, this is quite a little moment, isn't it interesting.

46:12

So, um, so,

46:15

so that's, you know, it's there's still huge,

46:18

huge steps to take. Mm hmm.

46:23

Yeah. So I'm not sure whether really answer the question.

46:26

I was just trying to Yeah,

46:29

Yeah. So I think for me challenges are opportunities,

46:33

right? And there's a lot of them because life is living all the time,

46:38

right? And so we're building this platform called the cube.

46:42

But I do have this podcast right called queer news which I spoke on earlier.

46:45

And it is a challenge for me too to report on things that are balanced to show that yes,

46:51

there are absolutely some awful things happening today in the legislatures across our country when it comes to trans rights,

46:59

um when it comes to those who are the most powerful,

47:02

right, harming those who are the most vulnerable and hearing.

47:07

Oftentimes silence from the community in communities in which I am a part of,

47:13

right? So it is incredibly important for me to report on those stories,

47:16

but it's also important for me to report on the joy.

47:19

And so it's important to report on the things that are also good.

47:23

And I leave people with a word of the day and it's got a word with the podcast.

47:26

I had a while back. I leave people with a word because I need I need the inspiration after some of these stories that I report on.

47:35

And so I think what are the challenges will be is you finding as a new creator finding your voice and finding how you want to tell stories.

47:45

Um you know, when I started queer news because of my journalism background,

47:49

I thought I should come on this podcast, report the stories and walk away every day,

47:53

just report that I couldn't,

47:56

I cannot do it. I had opinions about every single story and I was like,

48:00

you have to throw it out the window, throw out the window any notions you have any learned ideas you had around what it was supposed to be and really do what your gut is telling you to do,

48:10

overcome the challenges. Look at them as opportunities for how and where and when I can show up and just be your most authentic self because otherwise I would have had a new show that sounded like every other news show,

48:22

whether it's on television or on a podcast.

48:25

So, you know, I think for me it's about finding balance.

48:28

It is about providing people something a little bit different and I think that the most beautiful part about podcast is that everybody is unique in their own way.

48:36

So don't think that you're doing something that someone else has already done because you are,

48:41

you only, you can do what you're gonna do right?

48:44

And just always remember that. Mhm.

48:46

That's exactly right. Yeah. I think mine is like part logistical,

48:51

part something else. But it's about time.

48:53

Um you know,

48:56

it never feels like you have enough time to ask all the questions to get the whole story out right.

49:02

Um and so I think first of all recognizing Like if you have a finite amount of time,

49:08

you're going to get what you get in that time.

49:11

Um and that will be enough. And the goal is not to do it all get it all back to what Anna was sharing about like doing 10,

49:19

12 seasons of a podcast. It's not about all,

49:23

it's about enough. It's about sparking something and you know,

49:28

finding other ways to pull on that thread or continue those conversations even if it's not in that podcast space.

49:35

I think one thing about time is like,

49:38

it never feels like there's enough time to get all the things that you want and that's okay.

49:43

The other thing about time is like scheduling,

49:46

I think again, that's like a logistical thing, but like that's real,

49:49

that's one of the challenges of like trying to get,

49:52

you know, align schedules and get folks on the show and figure out,

49:56

you know, when they, when someone is at their like peak time and if you're in different time zones.

50:02

I think just time in general, I've been really interested in and connected to like this idea of time travel and you know,

50:10

afrofuturism. So I'm like, I'm messing with time all the time anyway.

50:15

Um, but it does have its challenges in this kind of space.

50:18

I'm constantly amazed and impressed by people like anna who put out three stories a week.

50:27

I mean that sounds like you're kidding me.

50:32

I'd rather go and have root canal work without.

50:35

I mean, you know,

50:37

part of me is like, but it seems to be putting a lot of pressure on yourself.

50:42

But one of the ways you also talked about how you editorialize you come with your opinions.

50:47

Surely this is the joy of podcast. You don't have to respect broadcasters,

50:51

notions of impartiality. If you've got a view about something you down,

50:55

well let the audience, let them have it,

50:57

you know? And I think that is is very powerful,

51:02

but I'm just, I'm unbelievable three stories a day.

51:05

Oh my God, that's extraordinary.

51:07

Don't worry, Nicholas, I feel the same way often.

51:10

Okay. And I also,

51:14

I have to give myself grace when I when I don't get it.

51:17

Right. So this past um, this week,

51:20

this month, right? It's just a busy month. Pride is just busy.

51:23

Right? And so I'm grateful that people give me grace.

51:26

So it's all and and given that it's the summer too.

51:30

Right? So, uh, when we talk about juneteenth and we talk about Father's Day and what does it mean to take rest?

51:37

Right, uh, and rest for my team.

51:41

I don't do this alone and I don't think any of us do this alone,

51:45

right? There is support systems. There are people who believe in what we do,

51:48

We continue to show up because people keep listening.

51:51

Um, also,

51:53

right? We get it out of our systems, but then people were adding value into the world of podcasting and into this beautiful canon.

52:01

That is queer content. And I think that's what keeps us all going because we are making an impact and being intentional about that.

52:10

Yeah, yeah,

52:12

I completely agree. And I also just want to touch on like um I think everyone has um everyone will run into challenges and I think the challenges will be unique or sometimes it will be exactly the same as everyone else,

52:25

which is that sometimes the audio will be bad,

52:27

Sometimes you'll run into a scheduling conflict,

52:29

sometimes you'll do an entire episode,

52:32

then it's like gone and you're like um but as somebody who has had to deal with a lot of anxiety for a long time,

52:41

um and a lot of like hardships that I think are very unique to just being filipino and just being like a different things,

52:49

I think you have to be ready for like things to go wrong,

52:52

but you shouldn't, you know, think that things are gonna go wrong,

52:55

It's kind of like, it's a weird balancing act where um you,

52:59

whenever something bad happens, you kind of just understand that it was bound to happen at some point,

53:06

but not everything is gonna turn out bad,

53:08

you know, and some of the good thing is gonna be so good,

53:11

like, and so it's like an interesting like nuance of like there's always gonna be challenges,

53:18

whether it's push back,

53:20

whether it's logistical, whether it's technical,

53:23

um but when you are ready to kind of just like put yourself out there and you're ready to like move forward is very that's so generic,

53:32

but I do think that it's like important to hear that if you have a setback,

53:37

that's just part of it and I think you have to be ready,

53:40

you have to be prepared for it, but not think that's the entire thing because as you said,

53:46

anna like you, when you report on these news,

53:49

you report on both the joy and the,

53:51

you know the misfortune because that's part of being just in the community,

53:56

being a person I think and I think a lot of people aren't,

54:00

you know, set up to know how to handle failure and sometimes there are failures,

54:04

but like that's not the end of everything, as as we said before,

54:07

like there's still stuff after the failure,

54:09

there's still stuff after the ending, so that's just going to keep happening and sometimes the big,

54:14

the good stuff is going to be Like 10 times better than what do you think is a big failure.

54:21

But yeah, I just wanted to mention that and also just kind of on,

54:24

since we're on our like last 10 minutes, I do want to like get into the fun part which is what are some podcasts and or shows anything that you and creators that you're very excited about coming up um just talk about gush about your,

54:38

you know, people you're excited about um this is,

54:41

this is the moment to go ahead goodness.

54:45

I could gush all day wait. Uh so there's some amazing creators that I listened to.

54:51

Um afro queer is a wonderful podcast.

54:54

People should get into talking about queer folks in the african um um continent and sally is the whole suit is absolutely brilliant.

55:03

Um then there,

55:05

I'm also, I love DJ Tracy trees.

55:08

She has a daily podcast called, what's the pod where she's doing podcast recommendations,

55:13

always highlighting different genres that you can get into really helping with discovery ability.

55:19

Um there's also another one called Q points hosted by jay ray who is a black gay man and doing all things music and that was actually a video podcast.

55:28

And so he's always highlighting artists and he tells so many stories.

55:31

I was like, I don't know half the stuff about him that I know now.

55:34

So all of those are really, really good and then also say the cube original content that we've got coming out and it's just gonna be brilliant.

55:43

I really think it is, I'm really proud of what we're doing.

55:46

So we talked about second sunday you all heard about behind closed doors.

55:49

We are doing a podcast um called Polly and chats around non monogamous relationships.

55:54

Um centering black queer triad,

55:57

which I'm really excited about as well and um we're gonna have a podcast for podcasters and I'm just,

56:06

I'm overwhelmed with all the goodness that I think is out here in the world and my hope is that folks can really begin to discover it right?

56:15

I knew you'd have the good stuff, and I was like,

56:17

oh I know anyone else would you like to chat about?

56:24

Like, it's fascinating because I I hearing anna talk about this,

56:28

it's like um it's like a portal,

56:30

like an amazing Wikipedia of kind of links and things.

56:34

Um I just I suppose I would just like to come back and plug my friends Tony's podcast,

56:40

which I worked on earlier this year. Can we write about this?

56:43

I think it's a really interesting area at the moment to explore erotic writing,

56:49

erotic memoirs. What does that mean? And and who gets to who gets to write what stories?

56:55

Really, really fascinating stuff. So that's something I would certainly want to plug.

57:01

Mhm. I've tried to prepare for this,

57:04

but I go in and out of podcast, you know, I love them listening,

57:08

and then I don't listen for a while, but listen to a great one about Ziggy Stardust the other day,

57:12

but that was from the BBC. But it's a bit of cultural history.

57:16

It's fascinating because Barry was one of the first artist to come out to say he was bisexual and the moment on BBC television on top of the Pops.

57:24

So this is the UK cultural moment when he sings,

57:27

when he does Ziggy Stardust on Top of the Pops, and he put his arm around Mick ronson it's like a key moment in queer history in the U.

57:34

K. It was like the first time that a major artist had done something like that.

57:39

And I think there's a really boy George talks about that being a moment literally that changed his life.

57:46

And I think there might be a really interesting podcast in picking out those little cultural moments.

57:52

Yeah it would be really fascinating to do something that would be one of them.

57:56

But yes because ziggy stardust has got 50 years old that really ages me anyway.

58:04

Sorry I didn't mean to interrupt but no.

58:07

Yeah. Yeah I I guess you know the one podcast that I would plug I'm retweeting all the ones that Anna has has referenced um is a podcast called emergent Strategy,

58:18

Adrian Marie Brown. Um We're um black person who you know they bring on different guests and and and you know this whole emerging strategy is all about like small is all and interdependence and I think that those kinds of topics um really relate to being queer and how we've been able to survive and thrive in the world.

58:43

Um And so I'm really into that podcast right now but like I said I'm kind of in and out.

58:48

So I don't have other recommendations.

58:52

Just say one thing I'm married to America.

58:56

My husband is from Brooklyn and Miami and we often go to Fort Lauderdale.

59:00

I'm very struck by how the ability with which you do create communities.

59:06

Yes. I mean maybe it's something it's something to do with the huge size of America and the kind of political divisions or whatever.

59:14

But when I hear, when I hear doctors talk about their kind of communities,

59:18

it feels like you're more plugged in to this kind of local issues and concerns.

59:25

It's very powerful in the UK because London is so monolithic.

59:31

London Manchester perhaps has a huge and Brighton has a huge gay community.

59:34

Queer community is much lesser.

59:37

There is a community, but it's it's,

59:39

it's not something that people can access as easily or even perhaps feel as welcome because there's this again,

59:47

another distinction I'm aware of in America.

59:50

It means it's much friendlier.

59:52

That queer community out there than in the UK.

59:56

Very interesting. And and what you would,

59:58

I think podcasting can only help to build that sense of you mean to say,

1:00:03

mhm monty, Can I plug two more to?

1:00:08

Okay. Uh there is uh the sex kiki,

1:00:13

which I think is brilliant. Uh a black queer black queer woman who talks about sex kiki,

1:00:20

but also the spiritual aspects of sex kiki,

1:00:23

which I think is brilliant. And then there's a podcast called Girl down podcast hosted by a on who's a black trans woman who talks about her own experience,

1:00:33

but like culture, which I think is brilliant.

1:00:35

And then the cube is also producing an audio drama and I think that audio drama is gonna be lit and,

1:00:42

I'm excited about that experienced mani thank you.

1:00:47

I'm glad I know and I can't wait to listen to yours.

1:00:51

Oh thank you. Yeah so big ups to experience J.

1:00:55

and Imani the writers of that one who I think it's gonna be a brilliant story around race and sexuality and how those things meet around coming out.

1:01:02

That's awesome. And yeah before we end I just want to like recommend just one because I was like oh who am I thinking about?

1:01:08

And what I'm very excited about is um it's a audio drama.

1:01:12

It's season two is like funding right now. It's called Life with Leo.

1:01:15

And it's gonna sound funny because it's it's it's a romance between a lawyer and a sentient robot.

1:01:23

And the reason I bring it up is because like creator is the writer is Octavia bray.

1:01:28

It has like basically it centers like um black woman creator and like it has like a very even though the main romance is I would say heterosexual like the entire like mood and the characters of the podcast are very queer.

1:01:43

There's something very um and there's something like very queer themed.

1:01:46

Even if it's not like out there are certain like media that are queer theme but not outright queer and I think this one is like very joyful.

1:01:54

Very it's very much in my wheelhouse of genre fiction that may not be about like the representation but like is just like flowing representation and it's just really cute.

1:02:05

It's just really funny, very lighthearted. It's my jam and I'm like,

1:02:08

oh my gosh, Season two. so I wanted to talk about that.

1:02:13

But yeah, no, it's wonderful to talk with everybody.

1:02:16

This has been amazing vibrant conversation.

1:02:19

I hope you all feel the same way and uh yeah,

1:02:22

thank you so much for like sharing and for discussing everything with me and with everybody.

1:02:28

Happy pride. Yes.

1:02:34

Happy pride. Everyone. This has been such a treat.

1:02:37

This has really been such a treat. Thank you so much moxie Dapple of the hind i podcast for hosting dr s from behind closed doors and addition of the cube and queer radio and Nicholas Mcinerney of Rainbow Dad's amongst many other things.

1:02:51

I'm going to read our brief altro and then we will say goodbye today.

1:02:54

Thank you everyone for joining us for this live stream.

1:02:56

Stories of Pride with Nicholas Mcinerney of Rainbow Dads and the decision of the cube and dr s of the upcoming behind closed doors.

1:03:04

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1:03:26

you can replay this livestream on pod means youtube channel and the storytelling podcast week podcast Storytelling Podcast Week is brought to you by Pod Bean,

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1:03:39

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1:03:43

Thank you so much for joining us and stay tuned for next month's live panel from storytelling podcast week on july 26th at three p.m. Eastern for campfire stories with john valentine of Campfire Radio theater and Jim Harold of Jim Harold's campfire.

1:03:57

Thanks so much everybody.