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Hello and welcome to podcasting smarter.

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This episode is a replay of our live event.

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Winning it. Sports a live conversation with BBC podcasts featuring Eliza Skinner of on the podium and crystal genesis of the upcoming untold legends aura on this live panel.

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We'll discuss what creating shows for the BBC looks like capturing those special sports stories and what makes them unique production and what it looks like to create interview shows up to large scale narrative documentaries and so much more.

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Stay tuned and here we go. Hello,

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Hello everyone and welcome to the storytelling podcast week,

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august live panel winning at sports with BBC podcast.

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My name is norma jean blinky. I'm the head of events here at pod bean and we are so excited to have you here today,

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I'm going to read our brief intro and then we will get started with our amazing guests.

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So hello and welcome welcome back everyone to storytelling podcast week and our august roundtable winning at sports with BBC podcast featuring Eliza Skinner of on the podium and crystal genesis of the upcoming untold legends aura for those of you who may be joining us for the first time storytelling podcast week has livestream sessions like this one with top podcasters and storytellers from scripted fiction and nonfiction podcasts from across our world and our imaginations.

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We also have exclusive recorded episodes on the storytelling podcast week podcast and poke beans.

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Official podcast podcasting Smarter. We are brought to you by pod bean where a podcast hosting and monetizing platform and home to over 600,000 podcasts to start your podcast.

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Head over to pod bean dot com today. Hello and welcome.

1:39

Now we'll jump in. Hi everybody, how's it going?

1:43

Very well? Good.

1:45

We are so excited to have you both here today.

1:47

So just jumping in for those who may not be familiar with you and your work,

1:53

tell us about yourselves and how you each got into podcasting and the podcast that we'll be talking about today.

1:59

Um Eliza, let's start with you and on the podium.

2:03

Um Great! I am Eliza skinner.

2:05

I am a comedian and comedy writer based out of L.

2:09

A. Um and I'm one of the co hosts on the podium for the BBC world service.

2:13

Um and the way that I got into that is I had another podcast called Cool Playlist which was all about music.

2:20

It was me talking to musicians and mostly comedians,

2:24

other interesting creative people and making playlists for very specific life moments of events,

2:30

whatever, like taking your dog for a walk or wearing a new jacket.

2:34

And I stopped doing that, but I guess people would listen to it and I guess one of them was Joel hammer from the BBC.

2:39

And so when he was planning this new podcast,

2:41

he contacted me and was like, do you wanna do you wanna host this podcast?

2:46

And I was like, I know nothing about sports and he was like,

2:49

I do, I'll do that part.

2:51

It's like, and it worked out,

2:53

he, I would never have thought of it or thought of me for this,

2:56

but he had a good idea. It's so interesting that you just talked about not having much like knowledge of sports because that's exactly like me.

3:07

So when I first saw this I was thinking, oh this is going to be like how am I going to get to do this?

3:11

Um But yeah, my background is in journalism.

3:14

I like studied it. I didn't really know what I wanted to do,

3:16

but what I knew is that I like talking to people and finding out what they were thinking,

3:20

feeling. I could always like sense the mood,

3:23

you know? So I was always like interested in that and I liked socialize as well and a huge music fan as well.

3:29

Um So and I come from a kind of musical family.

3:32

So sound has always been something that's quite natural.

3:34

And I was actually at the BBC for about eight years working across local national and international news was in D.

3:40

C. For a while. So I kind of come from a very traditional background,

3:44

but then podcasting was obviously becoming like huge,

3:47

remember 2016, so many things were happening in the world,

3:50

in the Western world and I think it made sense to try and provide something that I'm really passionate about.

3:56

Also studied global history as well. Like a global perspective basically.

4:00

Um mostly transatlantic of course.

4:03

But because where I'm based but I wanted it to be a platform that kind of celebrated arts,

4:10

culture, current affairs and just narratives that you don't really see much in mainstream.

4:14

And it was like a D I Y project, it's still quite D I Y.

4:17

Those people like to be on it, but it's kind of small in a sense.

4:20

But I think what people like about it is the fact that our audience is kind of quite dedicated.

4:25

As opposed to having like a big audience, you might not necessarily like follow what you're doing.

4:29

So yeah, that was a very D I. Y project, didn't make any money for the first year,

4:32

then started to make money. Then a bunch of people said you want to start making podcasts for us.

4:36

So I ended up setting up a company and then the dream one of the dreams is to then go back to the anti Ak BBC and make make my own thing there,

4:47

and I can tell you a bit more about that further along.

4:50

So in a way it just so happened that I'm in the position of doing what I'm doing.

4:55

But yeah, I basically spent all day like listening to sound or writing about it or trying to that's basically all I do and try and look after my Children as well.

5:05

Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like you're an audiophile and I love that you both have such different backgrounds and that's you know,

5:11

what's so great about podcasting, right? It's something where,

5:13

you know, you can come from a traditional journalism background and you can,

5:16

you know, really have that take and have that i with it.

5:19

And also, you know, it can start out with something like,

5:21

hey, I made this, I made this cool podcast about playlists,

5:24

right? Whether it's about, you know, defining those life moments and celebrating them with your audience.

5:30

So amazing, amazing, amazing.

5:32

Um, when I want to touch such a,

5:35

I think the audience for podcasts,

5:39

um, and people who process the world different ways and process stories different ways and so they want to hear about the same subjects,

5:47

but in different ways, like the kind of person who would listen to my podcast and it sounds like also crystals podcast about sports is probably not going to be have the same reaction to like a sports center type of thing,

6:01

but it's all the same the same subject.

6:05

Absolutely, Absolutely,

6:08

Yes. And I think it's something where, you know, talking about today,

6:11

we're here to talk about sports stories and you both really tell those kind of like in depth behind the scenes,

6:16

you know, stories especially crystal,

6:18

I want to get into untold or because that's about one specific person,

6:23

but Eliza on, on your end with, on the podium,

6:26

you know, you're hearing from different people every week.

6:28

Um, and that kind of brings me into my next question,

6:33

you know, what have you learned along the way in terms of what sports mean to us and how sports stories in particular make an impact.

6:44

Um wow, I've learned a lot.

6:49

I as I said, I was never a sports fan myself,

6:52

I never tried to, and like watching sports,

6:55

I was always like, I don't know what I'm supposed to watch. Do I watch their legs or ball or what is it?

7:00

And then finding out the story has made it so much more interesting because I'm like,

7:05

oh, this, this moment I'm watching is just part of a larger narrative.

7:09

Um and it's just a very visceral way to see people um go up against obstacles and either meet them and succeed them,

7:18

or more often, far more often not meet them and then how they recover from that and how they keep going.

7:25

And so, I mean, I guess it's taught me that we are all,

7:29

we're all doing that all the time.

7:32

Um and a lot of times we're doing it privately and sometimes just in our own heads and these are people who are doing them doing that on the world stage.

7:41

Their failures and their successes are in front of a stadium full of people or,

7:46

and or everyone watching at home all over the world and they have to emotionally process that it's not about the physical,

7:56

it's very, I mean they spend a lot of time training for the physical,

8:00

but it's also so much about the emotional,

8:03

even one question about sports before I did all of this was remember watching people play basketball in the park and being like this,

8:12

people are really good. I'm impressed,

8:14

I don't know much, but this is impressive.

8:16

And then watching a basketball game on tv at a friend's house and thinking,

8:21

I think maybe the difference, one of the big differences between the people in the park and the people on tv are that the people on tv are able to do with the people at the park do on tv.

8:31

Like with all of the extra pressure, all of the extra the money,

8:36

the all of their managers and families and fans counting on them,

8:41

they're able to still perform just as cleanly.

8:45

Um, and that I think was one of the first things that fascinated me about just the mindset of,

8:51

of athletes and sport. Absolutely.

8:54

And you guys interview a lot of people on on the podium who,

8:57

you know, it's what I love about the show is that you really do get that greater narrative right?

9:01

You, you you start with the moment, right?

9:03

The moment of glory or the moment of defeat or you know,

9:06

just that world, the moment on the world stage,

9:08

pretty much. And it's so interesting to see,

9:11

you know, what goes into that and what it takes and and you know,

9:15

some of that, like you were saying is maybe the difference between people who can do it in front of a camera and maybe some of the differences,

9:20

People who spend years and,

9:23

you know, years of their lives, I want to say months and years,

9:25

but years and years of their lives um to to learn how to just block it out and be in the moment and and be goal focused.

9:34

Um Okay, crystal, now I want to talk about untold aura because this is untold legends or it's super exciting.

9:40

It's a new show coming out from BBC podcast.

9:43

Tell us a little bit about the show and or Washington and what drew you to her story.

9:49

Yeah, well actually it was the BBC,

9:51

they sent out a pitch. I don't think maybe I would have because I do like history's female histories,

9:57

like blacks, but you know, I'm interested in so many different things,

10:00

so maybe I would have come across this story, but she was a sports stuff.

10:03

Basketball and tennis smashed it in both fields.

10:08

Um and I don't know anything about tennis.

10:15

I was like, how is this?

10:18

But actually, um so anyway,

10:20

so we pitched it and and the thing is, there's nothing really out there from aura,

10:24

like there's not many interviews with her. So that was like,

10:27

I can talk to you all about some of the issues, but that was obviously gonna be really challenging,

10:31

but then I was thinking like, you know, I have a lot of knowledge in obviously journalism and also I also come from a bit of an arts background as well.

10:39

I used to work at Southbank Center and working curation for different art forms and things like that.

10:44

So I kind of felt like if,

10:46

like, you know, I know how to tell stories in a creative,

10:49

interesting way, I love history,

10:53

I I worked with actors,

10:55

so I was thinking, okay, maybe we can have it where we sort of build it out a bit and we rely on the archive,

11:00

you know, I remember spending a year in like the News Archives and things like that.

11:06

So I'm thinking we can pour clips where people have talked about her.

11:09

Like, there's a really creative, interesting way of doing this,

11:11

not just me, by the way, like, a whole team of people,

11:13

which is very important to say.

11:16

Um so I think they liked the way that we're approaching the story that was different,

11:20

like, very creative, very ambitious.

11:22

She says after working on it for such a long time,

11:26

very ambitious, but I think it's important to always aim that really,

11:29

really hard if you're trying to do this, especially when you're trying to do an untold stories and you have to be particularly sensitive.

11:34

There's like, so many other considerations.

11:38

And yeah, aura is an incredible woman.

11:40

I don't want to say too much to ask for spoilers later,

11:47

don't worry, she's just an extraordinary woman who's kind of just been forgotten and we all know how Cynthia Gibson,

11:54

but she was like before her.

11:56

So, you know, when America was segregated,

11:58

so in a way through her story, we're trying to tell part of the story about american history as well.

12:02

Also what it is like as well to be a black american,

12:06

but also, you know,

12:08

it's been documented a queer woman, working class woman,

12:12

like all these different things while you're trying to make it in somewhere like,

12:16

you know, tennis, which has a particular reputation or isn't necessarily accessible to people.

12:21

So anyway, we're really trying to tell a story of sports,

12:25

women's history. American history,

12:28

politics all through this woman's story.

12:30

And it's great, also, as I said,

12:32

go through the archives because it can tell you a lot about the time,

12:35

what people are thinking and feeling. And so that's kind of how we're doing.

12:40

Um or uh well this is another thing where no one is entirely sure when she was born,

12:44

because many people back then were not given birth certificate,

12:47

but she was born, we think 18 98.

12:51

So this is the twenties thirties.

12:53

But there's a whole bigger story as well in terms of how extraordinary she was.

12:58

And when you were talking earlier, when you're saying about what you've learned from like doing sport or like interviewing these people something I,

13:04

which is kind of what you touched on as well, it's just the dedication that they have and like how competitive they are obviously they're competitive to get So be so good.

13:14

But like, so like one track mind,

13:16

you know, like and put themselves under that kind of pressure and when you were talking about everyone's watching,

13:20

it's also about the fact that they're like money making machines as well or it wasn't,

13:25

we can talk about why or when you listen, you know more,

13:27

but you know, a lot of these people are like money making machines,

13:30

everyone's relying on them. And I think it would personally be a nightmare to be honest.

13:34

But I was I'm really impressed by just the sheer like determination and grit to like succeed through sport.

13:42

And also another thing really quickly which I want to add in sport as well,

13:45

which I never thought about before. But it is seen as a kind of people obviously see it as a level playing field.

13:50

Obviously, I don't know if that's 100 and true. You need to buy shoes and there's so many other things,

13:55

even if you're not doing like sailing or or whatever.

13:57

You know, something that requires a lot of kit, but something that I think is quite true actually in a way much more than the arts or journalism or anything like that where so many people will let in in in the industry through like parents or friends of friends and I think in sport you have to be good.

14:15

Like you have to be good. Whereas I think in journalism or art you don't actually have to be that good,

14:19

like you can just have that stage. No,

14:23

I don't think, I don't think, I think like a lot of,

14:26

a lot of people not you don't have to,

14:28

not like, I think in sports it's a different, it's a different thing right?

14:31

There, there's a timer in sports,

14:34

there's there's very clear metrics and not only there's a timer,

14:39

but I also think like, just for instance in journalism,

14:41

like there's just like longevity if you can just wait around for ages and ages and ages,

14:46

someone people won't exactly, there's like some different things or the support that you can get.

14:51

There's lots of different ways that make it completely different to sport.

14:54

And that for me has been like, so I opening and it's been great actually to see that one of the interesting things,

15:01

you know, and speak about how competitive they are that I've been seeing even just in the two years of doing on the podium is how much they've moved away from it.

15:12

I mean, I think that that's because that's its novel for them.

15:16

And so that's that's what they're talking about because they do have that competitive thing really deeply in them,

15:22

but there is a lot more of really valuing the community that they have with other athletes,

15:27

not even just people on their team, but people who are doing the same sport people that they see a different meat over and over and as a I in doing this find a lot of similarities between what they do and what I do is a stand up comedian um,

15:43

same sort of thing. Like when I'm doing my stand up,

15:45

I'm alone on the stage, but the other comedians that are at the back of the room that I see it shows over and over that,

15:51

you know, we go up to festivals together,

15:53

that's that's a community and I think in the past that stuff has not been really valued or highlighted and it has been all like achieve,

16:03

achieve, achieve and now we're getting to a place where it's like we also have to have a community and and lift each other up because we're the ones who know exactly what this is,

16:14

like, we know exactly how hard it is and we know exactly how high the high.

16:19

Um, so I think that's,

16:21

that's been an interesting evolution that I've been able to see.

16:25

Absolutely, and I love how you both speak to,

16:28

I mean it's really a meritocracy, right?

16:30

When you talk about sports, it's the ultimate meritocracy,

16:32

whoever gets across the line first is the fastest,

16:35

you know, it's really, you know,

16:38

it's very clear in that regard.

16:40

Um, but I,

16:43

oh no, no, please one of the episodes that we did this season,

16:47

I think is the first one of the season, Gianmarco temporary,

16:50

I think, had he um he shared a gold medal with another competitor who he'd been,

17:00

you know, their best friends. They were in each other's weddings,

17:03

They talk on the phone all the time, but they got down to this moment of all right,

17:07

were to decide who gets the gold medal.

17:10

We're gonna need to go into another round and or,

17:14

and they were the ones who were like, actually can we just share this medal?

17:19

And we talked to him about,

17:21

hey, there are a lot of people that kind of were upset about this and they wanted to know who is the best you guys should have taken it to the limit and figured out the very winner winner.

17:29

And he was like, I understand it.

17:32

I get that they're right.

17:34

But also, so this was right to um,

17:37

yeah, it was a really, really beautiful kind of gray area that people are finding.

17:41

I find it absolutely.

17:43

And I was just about to say, I love how you speak to the community aspect of it.

17:47

You know, it's like, even even if it's a singular sport,

17:50

you may be in it on your own. And even podcasting,

17:53

right? It's you and the mic.

17:56

But at the same time, it also speaks to the fact that everyone else in podcasting is also,

18:01

you know, has that singular experience as well.

18:03

And that in and of itself is a shared experience.

18:07

Yeah. And I think the more that you acknowledge that the more you can invest in it,

18:11

I was watching to get right off topic lizzo series,

18:16

have you have you seen that make way for the big girls?

18:21

Yes, Yes, it's the dancing competition.

18:23

Yes. Yeah,

18:25

and it's a great show. I love it partly because because they don't eliminate somebody every episode,

18:30

they eliminate people when they need to be eliminated,

18:32

but it's really about finding the best,

18:35

not pushing people in that forced elimination,

18:40

but the reason I bring it up is because you get to see Liz owes team and how she works and as a solo artist,

18:48

she's somebody who looks from the outside,

18:50

wow, how can she do all of that?

18:53

And then you see like, oh she can do all of that because she has assembled an amazing team and she lets them be her team and she's so invested in that it's allowed her to push herself along.

19:07

I think there's a lot of these artistic pursuits that we think,

19:12

oh, I got to be a lone wolf because that's what you see from the outside and just really quickly on that you remind me that's another like,

19:20

tiny thing that I like about podcasting as well is that they just make sure everyone gets a credit even if they just listen to a mix,

19:26

you know, listen to, sorry, listen to a podcast before it goes live when I say a mix.

19:32

Um and I think that's really, really important and yeah,

19:34

this team that I have was was it was a big,

19:37

big team and I think it's much more generous compared to radio in that way.

19:42

Like I remember like when I was in a museum and some people be like,

19:44

God, they've got so many people on those credits and it's like,

19:46

yeah, because you didn't include younger staff members because you didn't want to,

19:51

you know what I mean? So I think that's why again,

19:54

podcast is what initially started off as it's like so exciting and it's still open,

19:59

you know, but it's like the people who were like different or had different ideas or didn't fit or have similar ideas of taste.

20:07

They took out that space and I think you can just tell just from the community that you do have in podcasting,

20:12

you know, that it's just such a nicer welcoming space.

20:16

And anyway, it just reminded me when you were saying that no,

20:19

I love that. And that kind of segues into the second half of my question.

20:22

So what have, what have you each learned along the way in regard to podcasting in terms of production and and storytelling I could talk about almost finishing the mix is now,

20:36

do you know what? I think it's hard.

20:39

I think that's the one thing I do love challenges and that problem solving sometimes I'm like maybe I'm kind of a bit addicted to it and I just need to like chill,

20:46

but it's very challenging.

20:49

Staffing is really challenging as well, like doing it during covid like you have illness.

20:54

Um so many things that you can't prevent like so many things you can't prevent.

20:58

I wouldn't even like go into it so that like has an impact.

21:01

Then you have to you need, you need to have make sure you've got,

21:03

you have fact checkers, you've got your researchers,

21:06

you know it's all about just making sure that you're trying to make,

21:10

I'm sure that I suppose everyone's as invested as you but then it's hard right?

21:14

Because you're kind of like no one's ever gonna be invested as a person that like runs the company sort of thing.

21:18

But there's that balance as well between like keeping up and invested but then trying to stick to the schedule so there's like the people managing aspect I think is probably one of the most challenging because we're all different,

21:30

right? We've all been managed bad. You've always been managed in a good way and I think micro manager is probably one of the worst things ever.

21:37

So I'm like sensitive to that. So people managing I think is one of difficult ones.

21:40

Budgets, always making sure you got your contingency,

21:43

thank God budgets that will be in five had to extend how long it takes in terms of the production,

21:48

you know there's lots of technical stuff like rights and you know you just make sure you've got legal team that you can go to basically you just have to be very organized and it's a challenge because everyone comes to,

22:00

to firefight. But when you listen to that show and you hear it and you hear all the work from the sound design,

22:07

to the archive, to the newspaper clippings,

22:09

to the actors, to the beautiful lines of script,

22:12

to our host tracking. You feel really proud and you feel so happy to have been part of it,

22:17

you know? And again, I'm not one tiny person out of loads of a huge team.

22:21

Yeah, that's what I would say.

22:24

Well, kind of kind of jumping off of Crystal said,

22:28

I would say recognize what it is that you're good at and what you're not good at and forgive yourself for it and address that.

22:35

So like, I'm good at being on the mic,

22:37

I'm terrible at producing. So I need to get a producer because for a long time I was like,

22:41

I can do it all, I can do it all. And I just never got anything done because I would be like,

22:46

I'm so, I'm so dumb that I don't know how to do this part of it.

22:49

And then once I started being like,

22:51

all right, I need to find somebody to do those parts,

22:54

everything moves so much faster.

22:56

Um from the one that I,

22:58

the podcast that I did on my own with my producer Aristotle Acevedo.

23:04

Um to this,

23:06

the BBC one where I'm like, I could never do any of this stuff.

23:09

It's such a gift to have all that production work.

23:12

Um For other for other things,

23:15

I would say,

23:18

uh I like treating guests like guests,

23:23

and I think that's an important thing for people to remember.

23:25

I've been a guest on podcasts and um not been treated like a guest um and that's in the same way that you invite somebody into your home,

23:35

you would want them to have a good time, you would want them to feel good being there.

23:39

Um And I think that's that that is a big part of hosting that people don't always think about.

23:46

Um and also always keep a pad and a note so you don't interrupt anybody.

23:54

You can remember what it was you wanted to say.

23:56

I also, I can have also for days,

24:00

just as Crystal said like this, I could be like, no,

24:02

that's why we're here not to interrupt, but that's why we're here to have this conversation.

24:06

Alright, well, I'll keep going. Then I would say uh there are wealth of stories out there that have not been told again.

24:18

Crystal kind of touched on this because for so long one kind of story was being told a story about straight white man who are already famous,

24:27

so or anybody who's already famous because that's going to get clicks,

24:31

but that it means that there are all of these stories just sitting around waiting for somebody to find them and be like,

24:36

have you heard about this person, Oh my gosh,

24:39

this is wild what they've been able to do.

24:41

So there's still plenty out there in all sorts of different subjects.

24:46

And I think I think approaching it that way is,

24:50

is a lot more interesting.

24:52

Whether that means you get to be a detective and find the stories or whether that means that you get to be um,

24:58

an artist and an author of crafting the stories or um,

25:03

empresario, that gets to be the first person or one of the first person to introduce these cool guests to the world to people who didn't know them before.

25:10

That's uh, that's thrilling for me. And I think keeping that in mind is uh,

25:15

is a great way to approach it because that's how I approach it.

25:18

So of course it's great. Um also,

25:21

my last little note I had written down is if you're in a position where you're telling stories about something that didn't wasn't on your list of interests that you didn't think interested you.

25:33

Like, as I said, sports, that wasn't,

25:36

that wasn't on my short list of my hobbies,

25:38

my interests, find out how it interests you,

25:42

find out what it is about it because for me it was all that stuff going on people's heads and Hearts and um,

25:53

and especially again, in the second season,

25:56

seeing people relax into being able to tell you the truth instead of just telling you they're glossy,

26:03

This is the pr thing that I'm supposed to say.

26:06

And I talked it over with my coach and now it's like I get to just be a person and that's fascinating to me.

26:12

And if you're interested then your audience is going to be interested too.

26:17

I love that. No,

26:19

that was so eloquent. No Eliza that was that was beautiful.

26:23

And actually there's a couple, there are a couple of follow up questions and I want to ask them all at once,

26:27

but I'm gonna I'm gonna go one at a time.

26:31

Um but and and we'll we'll circle back to Crystal in a second because Crystal,

26:36

I do want to talk about the length of time it takes to produce the kind of work that we're talking about with untold laura and you know,

26:43

just the production value that you're talking about with sound design and and all of that.

26:48

Um but I want to ask this next question because you kind of you know,

26:51

just really addressed it head on um about,

26:54

you know, the stories that haven't been told in the past and as women who are telling these stories,

27:00

you know, the two of you, how do you how do you feel podcasting helps bring more awareness,

27:06

gender representation, representation for people of color and equity to everyone,

27:11

both in terms of the the subject of the podcast or the guest and the audience first of all,

27:21

especially as a tv writer in Hollywood.

27:26

I think that we are creating a space where that has not been filled enough,

27:33

which is women talking to other women the way women actually do not because a man wrote and a man is holding the camera and it's what they imagine like just how we actually talk to each other.

27:47

So for women listening, that sounds really familiar and they can recognize a shorthand and they feel invited in in a different way than they might for other shows.

27:57

And for men listening, it normalizes us as people as not just a character in their lives,

28:02

but I mean it's it's the Bechdel test,

28:05

I was just about to say that like for so long women were just characters that affected the story of a man and you only heard them talk if they were talking about or to a man in a lot of movies and tv shows and so hearing women talking to each other is that alone is like revolutionary.

28:24

That that alone is practically activism um activism.

28:28

Use all your syllables Eliza so that um I think that's really valuable um and it allows people to open up in a really cool way in my podcast,

28:41

we have three hosts me, Scout Bassett and Ed Harry and I am the Ding Dong who's just a comedian and doesn't know anything but that means that I can ask Ding Dong questions like you know the stuff that another athlete would never even think to ask because they already know the answer,

29:02

but people listening might not and Scout is a pair of athletes so she's been there and she knows what our athletes have gone through and Ed has been a commentator for forever.

29:16

So he knows the history on all these things,

29:18

all these stats, all these great moments that he can compare things too.

29:22

And so between the three of us,

29:24

they, they know that their career has been respected.

29:27

Um they also know that this is just friends hanging out,

29:31

we're just talking, talking like we're friends,

29:34

we definitely respect you, but we're also going to joke around and you're not going to say something wrong if you do,

29:41

we'll edit it out, but you're really not. Um so just letting people be people I think has been great in our first season,

29:52

so many of the women especially, I felt like I had to present a really put together from polished Yes,

30:01

I am successful, I have one over things and I work hard and like while all of that is true,

30:08

it has been so cool to see in the second season people women being a lot more like ah geez,

30:16

I don't know and I try hard and we're like,

30:19

you do, you win? And they're like yeah,

30:21

but also one time I tripped and getting to feel like a whole whole person I think is very cool.

30:29

It was that bad answer. Absolutely,

30:32

absolutely. Um and before I crystal,

30:34

I want to hear from you in a second, but just before we continue for everybody after listening,

30:39

the Bechdel test is um it's named after a cartoonist Alison Bechdel and it's uh in media when two women have a conversation between themselves that does not involve a man and actually a lot of media does not meet that requirement.

30:54

Yeah. Yeah.

30:57

It's funny people think that that's, it's a weird,

31:00

it's such a stigma like, oh you're saying it's terrible because it doesn't pass the Bechdel test.

31:04

Like I'm just saying it doesn't, it doesn't,

31:09

but it's also kind of, this is so bad once you know the test and you're like,

31:13

oh God, you can see it everywhere.

31:16

The whole thing is so true.

31:18

That's the thing. Like I shouldn't have to be,

31:21

it shouldn't have to be like, like someone like me putting the,

31:24

the quality on it, like,

31:27

oh and it means it's bad. Like you as a viewer,

31:29

everybody should be like, oh we're seeing very poorly represented characters,

31:34

slim little strips of imaginary characters if we're not seeing that they have a full life and they have a full brain and they aren't just they don't just like live in a box and like come to life when a man enters the room there.

31:49

Yeah. And I also think that like in that way podcasting really is like shifting culture,

31:54

obviously loads more people now having access to listen to stuff,

31:58

which is amazing. Lots more content being made.

32:00

But you can also see how it's shifting with like younger generations,

32:04

there's been data, but also even if I just look at like something like my Children,

32:08

if they watch a film, There's seven and nearly 11 and there's might not be any people of color in it or like many women for instance,

32:16

they'll be like, where are they? I don't want to watch this or it doesn't seem that good or like they want to have,

32:23

they want to be able to see different types of like ways of telling stories in different people in unlikely narrators.

32:31

Like they just want to see, I think they just know it feels a bit charming just like how in a way for me in journalism kind of early on actually maybe just because I was,

32:40

I don't know, it's just like natural for me to think in that way,

32:42

maybe my background where I come from whatever, but like I would always think it sounds weird when you just see when you just hear the male voice on a new show and just the male voice and it's not that you're gonna get a woman as you said,

32:54

just to shoehorn in, but actually no one's trying hard enough because there are lots of other women that people who can talk about it.

33:00

So also like on that it's sort of lazy.

33:03

But yeah, just to go back, I think like podcasting is so powerful and I think it is shifting culture because exactly what you're saying as you say these things are being made,

33:10

then they're being turned into tele shows or whatever people are talking about it and the younger generations and kids are just being like actually this is like dull,

33:18

we've heard it a million times before, so that's kind of exciting.

33:21

Obviously everyone loves white guys and I hope they continue doing their thing.

33:25

I do personally love them very much like all guys,

33:28

but just you know,

33:30

we also need to make space and I think podcasting is doing that quite well.

33:35

Yeah, well and and I think that's that's so important that what you're saying about shoehorning things in and loving guys like yeah,

33:42

that's that's kind of what I mean about the Bechdel test,

33:45

I'm not saying that that's bad, like saying it would be great to hear more women and hear women talking to each,

33:51

each other is not like and none of that man stuff like it's just you guys have,

33:57

there are all these colors, but it's not a full rainbow.

34:00

Don't you want to have the full rainbow of different experiences,

34:03

Don't you want to know about all of those things?

34:05

Um Yeah,

34:07

so so yeah. Oh and so just yeah,

34:14

that's so funny. I was just gonna say just on your point as well,

34:17

like if you if you if you don't want it to be like that or representation or whatever that means that such a loaded word,

34:23

but if that's not necessarily important in a way that's okay as well,

34:26

but just maybe a bit clear about it. I suppose sometimes I have an issue with it.

34:29

Like this is why perspectives or this is a global show or this is giving you the news and it's like,

34:34

no, you're just giving me the news from like a really narrow perspective.

34:36

So again, if you want it to be a show where three guys are talking about whatever they're talking about,

34:42

listen to that, but like shows like for instance,

34:50

when you listen to dad's talking, you know,

34:52

and that's clear like, and they're just doing it. So in a way,

34:54

like if you don't try and pretend that you're giving us those perspectives when you're not,

34:58

I think that is my thing. And that was also what what part of what was trying to get to with that wealth of stories that haven't been told.

35:07

I think that sometimes there's this feeling, oh, I guess I have to find some diverse story to tell.

35:12

And it's like, no, you,

35:14

there's a whole section of the library that no one's checked a book out of.

35:19

You get to be, you get to break that.

35:22

It's not like, oh boo,

35:24

it's it's just,

35:27

yeah, it's a good thing. It's a gift.

35:30

I mean, it's not a good thing that those stories were told. But no,

35:34

but it's a good thing that there are so many stories and,

35:37

and it's so exciting in the world, right and direction.

35:41

Exactly. And I think that kind of leads to my next question.

35:43

So you know what some insight that you might both be willing to share with podcasters who want to tell stories from their communities or about their accomplishments or for the unsung heroes that they may have discovered right or who even who even are just at the beginning of that journey and,

36:01

and want to tell maybe just a different story,

36:05

I would say put a frame around it,

36:09

put a perimeter around it because that's so broad.

36:12

But if you can say, I want to tell stories of the people I grew up with or I want to tell stories of what most important thing that person has in their,

36:25

in their handbag or what's a tool you use every day and use that as a jumping off point.

36:30

Um, and that,

36:32

that can help rein in your stories. It'll it'll also help point them in different directions.

36:35

That's why I did um cool playlist with all these playlists because I found that talking to people about their favorite songs and specifically not just their favorite songs,

36:46

but songs that evoked a very specific emotion and why that emotion was important to them,

36:51

what is for me a cool way to get to know somebody.

36:54

Um, and probably get to know something that isn't the first level,

36:59

as I said, I was talking to comedians a lot. So if I was just like tell me about your comedy,

37:03

that's there's not a lot to do that's not much new growing.

37:07

How long is a piece of string? Exactly,

37:09

yeah, exactly. Um but if I could say,

37:12

what songs would you play to make an entrance into a room that people have very specific answers right away and they know and it's fascinating what different people's answers are for a question like that.

37:26

So I would say give yourself, give yourself a gimmick,

37:29

Give yourself a little frame to put around that.

37:32

Yeah, I suppose what I would say is I suppose this goes about saying like if someone wants to tell a specific story about a specific community that they're excited about it.

37:41

So firstly you need to be excited about.

37:43

Yeah. Um and I also think you have to take time to build relationships.

37:47

I think that's another thing and maybe it's a journalistic thing as well where everyone's like right there's the deadlines of this.

37:51

I live off deadlines. So I'm not trying to say I'm not anti that,

37:54

but you have to take your time. No,

38:00

I love it. If no one might never get like your your feedback on that edit so know that my whole life is so ridiculously organized like that,

38:08

but I mean like if you have to take your time and don't try and rush everything,

38:13

like don't set yourself up with a deadline before you know exactly what the story is going to be.

38:18

Also think I think maybe you Elizabeth talking about only like I think it's good when you're saying the framing,

38:23

I'm thinking about a different sense like also just crunch at what you're trying to do that.

38:27

Just do a bit of free writing 500 words and just keep on reducing.

38:31

It's a skill as well. Um And that's a skill that you should use.

38:34

And it's important as well when you're telling stories like what exactly are you trying to say?

38:38

Also be open to tweaking it as well because you might have lots of voices and they say something that's like completely like that you never thought you'd never heard of or you didn't think about when you're writing your outline or like whatever so be flexible and be do you know what this sounds cheesy.

38:55

But I also think people react really well if you're genuine.

39:00

No you're not being a bit of a scumbag because so many people are you know what I mean?

39:04

Some people just like or you know you can tell someone maybe it feeds into what you were saying you're talking about being interviewed which I was really annoys me.

39:12

You know when you say things like that because people should treat you as a guest and like it made me think maybe some people when they're being interviewed like they know when someone is not being nice or when someone is being dismissive,

39:24

you know when you see those news sort of clips,

39:26

you know like a bumbling presenter who hasn't read the brief properly or something.

39:30

So like I think um you know people respond really well if you're just genuine and you're interested and you care about like what they're saying or I'm not trying to say like you want to say put,

39:41

you know, just make everyone come across as perfect when they're not,

39:45

I'm not saying that but just treat people with respect and I think you get it and just always be respectful even when a guest is being horrible or being a bit rude or they're grumpy,

39:54

like it's always important to maintain that professionalism.

39:57

Um and then also just seek advice from lots of people like you know if someone's listening to this and they're like christmas sounds interesting,

40:03

like why not try and contact us? Yeah, okay. It might take us like a week or so to get back to an email just because you've got 15,000,

40:10

that's another thing. Don't take it personally, but also just like come with your questions like what do you want to know?

40:14

So like ask people who are doing stuff that you're kind of interested in but I think the key thing is the relationships and the tape obviously you need people to turn that into an ideal production is a whole different thing,

40:24

but you can get people who got skills in that the voices.

40:26

You want the voices, You need to be able to get those voices to commit to you and believe in you and then you just get amazing tape.

40:32

Once you've got great tape, there's so many ways to tell a story,

40:34

you know, excited.

40:38

You are about finding the different ways,

40:40

like you can just say, I love finding ways you can do,

40:43

you know what you can do.

40:45

Like there's so many things that has not been done,

40:49

like, so I've got a bank of it.

40:52

It's just just stuff that before I go to, you know,

40:54

actually I'm like, now I sound like a workaholic.

40:56

I'm not, but like ideas come to me all the time,

40:59

they might not necessarily be formed, but if I'm someone who's in the industry and has those ideas,

41:05

imagine so many people, which again, is why podcasting is good,

41:07

who like art and can see things that I can't see and there's so many things even to think about the drama for instance,

41:14

there's so many incredible dramas that you can do. There's so many ways to tell relationship podcasts that we haven't done dating podcast that we haven't done.

41:20

There's so much and I think that's exciting,

41:23

definitely. Yeah, I mean just to clarify when I say like I've been a podcast where I was not treated like a guest,

41:30

There are a lot of podcasts out there that are like debate me debate it and of course when they book you,

41:37

they don't say that they're not like I'd like to come on,

41:39

I'd like you to come on my podcast so I can challenge you um about your beliefs on bodily autonomy or Eliza I challenge you to an interview.

41:51

So I think that really want to do this show and you show up and you're like,

41:55

oh no, it's one of those that's so not professional as well.

41:58

But obviously I knew why they did that. That's what I'm trying to say where so many people don't really necessarily trust in this thing because a lot of people when they're booking or journalists or whoever,

42:06

they are production like in a way they do this sometimes quite desperate and they're like,

42:10

oh my God, what can I do just to get them? And it's like,

42:12

just be honest and you'll be able to get what you want and just keep on working through it.

42:17

And I think that was probably it, they just wanted to get you right.

42:20

And this and the related thing is I know that when you're booking people,

42:25

I would think especially women and marginalized people like we that they have been in that situation frequently.

42:33

So they might be a little guarded when you're interviewing them,

42:36

they might be like, is this going to be one of those things where I get stuff thrown at me and have to see how to dodge it.

42:43

So that's another reason why I'm like,

42:46

try to be so welcoming and like, hey,

42:48

we're gonna be friends, we're not gonna say no,

42:51

you're wrong, prove it, we're gonna,

42:53

we want your perspective. Yeah.

42:56

And I think also, I mean there is something to be said for making sure people feel comfortable because I mean,

43:02

as, as a host or producer,

43:04

that's really when you're gonna get the gold,

43:06

right, that's when you're gonna, you know, in sports terms,

43:09

that's when you're gonna get the gold, right? That's when you're gonna get that amazing.

43:13

You know, like you were saying, Crystal, when you've got good tape,

43:16

you can do anything with it. Um and I do actually,

43:20

now is the time I want to hear about untold legends or we have reached the full circle moment because you mentioned a couple of times about the production timeline and how much work has gone into the show.

43:31

So I don't want to ask for any spoilers,

43:34

but I'm asking for spoilers and so tell us a little bit about what the production has been like and what it's been like to um we'll just start there,

43:44

tell us a little bit about what that production has been like because we're looking at,

43:46

you know, really high quality production,

43:49

many, many different facets and aspects whether it's sound design,

43:52

you know, whether it's host tracks all that kind of stuff.

43:56

Yeah, God, I'm just trying to think where to start.

43:58

So it's been like over a year, just over here working on it.

44:00

But we've kind of factored in over a year,

44:02

but we've factored in obviously because of that, we had like lots of different illness and we've had a lot of that,

44:08

I suppose. God, I'm just trying to think like where to start.

44:12

It's just, it's just a whole operation and you just have to think about a lot.

44:18

So obviously run the company and I was exact producing it.

44:21

So yeah,

44:23

I'm just trying to think where to start with. Okay,

44:25

so let's start at the point because I want to talk next both with both of you about working with BBC because for so many podcasters,

44:31

that's such a big dream. Um but let's start.

44:35

Okay, so you said that, you know, BBC had, had,

44:38

had put out a call and you had submitted a pitch,

44:41

you had won the bid. And at that point,

44:44

where do you start at this point?

44:48

I think people want to know what that process is. You have to do a lot of research.

44:51

We did so much. Our research was like so deep.

44:54

It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

44:57

And it's so great. And I think that's why we were able to tell the stories,

45:00

but that takes a lot of time literally going in the weeds,

45:02

like newspaper archives, like interviews,

45:06

like uh journal articles,

45:10

but also what people are saying on twitter like listening watching documentaries about similar people when I say similar,

45:16

I mean like maybe at the same time or also like looking at the history books,

45:20

looking at what was happening at the time, like politically as well.

45:23

Like this is how I think anyway.

45:25

And then we and then also you want to get the actors and you know how to do that.

45:31

So firstly I suppose you do a lot of research then you need to do that outlines which people who don't know,

45:36

it's like rough beats of a story like tv right?

45:39

It's kind of a tv thing. Yeah. And so you kind of write down how many acts or see exactly how you're going to tell the story.

45:48

Um and then you get your tape then you start doing scripting leo chinese were involved tag team issue in that.

45:55

And and then you know,

45:57

you need a fact checker, you need to check with the client.

46:00

We had a story editor. So like you need to factor in all this,

46:04

everyone needs time as well to like feed in,

46:06

you know, you can't just say to the BBC,

46:08

you've got 25 Hours to like read this 30 page script and give me all your feedback on what you think.

46:13

So they they the client will basically like also be involved in it not too much at all,

46:19

but like they'll question things which I think you need as well,

46:22

you know, so it's sort of stuff that you might miss when you're so like in the project.

46:26

Not that I was in it as the producers for instance,

46:29

but um, I'm happy with that.

46:31

I like that and they work in radio and,

46:34

you know, come from radio background and some of them I've known as well from like when we were really young,

46:39

so I'm sort of fine with that and have done a lot of client type work.

46:42

Oh, and also around that time you're also thinking about sound design.

46:47

So you're getting a composer, then you also have an additional music,

46:50

you know, to like what sort of emotions you were going to portray.

46:53

You know, this is, it's just like so big.

46:56

Um, but it's exciting.

46:58

As I said, it's exciting, but it is a lot,

47:02

but you just love it. You're kind of, it's a bit of an addiction I think like working in these kinds of industries that working in sound interviewing people,

47:09

like hearing their stories. Like, as I said,

47:12

sometimes I just get so fed up with journalism.

47:14

I'm like, I want to leave, you know? Um,

47:17

that's why I went to the arts, but it pulled me back.

47:19

But you know what the reason mike calls me back is I would just love talking to people and finding out these stories and finding out ways to like engage and spotlight and complement and so yeah,

47:31

that's like the funnest part of it when you see it all to come together and then there's so much stuff about like riots forms,

47:36

contracts, lawyers release forms, like all this kind of stuff which is also like a huge part of it as well.

47:43

And then trying to keep up with 15 million emails when you've got lots of people sending you messages about,

47:48

I just realized I sound so grumpy. It's not,

47:51

it's great. No, it sounds like you just have to so many wheels,

47:56

right? There's so many wheels turning, you know,

47:58

at the same time. And when you're,

48:00

you know, when when we're listening to podcasts that are of that level of production,

48:06

right? It's hard to fathom all of the different aspects that go into the production.

48:12

So it's so helpful for you to break it down to mention as well.

48:16

And then there's like a host and then there's that negotiation assigned to like W M E and like C C A C A.

48:23

Yeah. And so there's C A. So there's like all those negotiations again,

48:27

this has been amazing. I've done some of this before, but like not as much as several.

48:31

So this is how you become like from being like a good journalist to being like exceptional,

48:35

amazing or you know, whatever. So, um there's there's there's all of that.

48:39

But the thing is that's where you get a team, right, that's where you get a team as you said,

48:42

who's got their special ISMs and then whenever you need,

48:45

you just need to also be thinking ahead all the time as well,

48:48

right? Like say if that person can't deliver or or say if there's an issue here,

48:52

say if the interview doesn't come, you know, you need to then be thinking,

48:55

okay, how can I sort that out? Would I need to bring in another person to help the team?

48:59

Do I need to tell the client look, we need a couple more days,

49:02

like, okay, do I really need to seriously have a conversation with a person?

49:05

Like, you know what I mean? There's like so much stuff that you really need to be thinking about.

49:08

And then and then there's the talent side,

49:11

the host side, which is you guys have a pretty big host.

49:14

Yeah. Renee Montgomery. Yeah, Yeah. W N.

49:17

B. A champion. She co runs Atlanta Dream,

49:20

um uh women's basketball team and she's an activist,

49:25

a podcaster. She's fantastic.

49:28

So. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's definitely one of those things where just the level of the production is,

49:35

you know, just hearing you talk about it,

49:39

there's so many elements there,

49:42

right, Whether it's host, whether it's composers,

49:44

whether it's release forms, whether it's legal and for for for all of us out there listening,

49:48

you know, it can feel really intimidating, but you didn't start there,

49:51

Right, and you had a radio background. So it's something where,

49:53

you know, just knowing that that exists and knowing that you can work up to that if that is your goal for your podcast,

50:01

right, definitely is such an amazing thing,

50:04

right? Just to, and to know that, that all all those elements don't happen in 24 hours.

50:10

You know, you've been actively working on the production of the show for a year.

50:14

That's, I mean, yeah, and not only you but an entire team of people and some yeah,

50:19

exactly. Not everyone's necessarily been like full time,

50:22

but yeah, exactly, that's, yeah,

50:24

that's kind of what, how these things kind of work.

50:27

You do have to, you need to make sure you have a solid team because you can't do everything on your own as Eliza and me known from like absolutely,

50:35

you gotta stick with your zone of genius.

50:38

So I want to pivot a little bit because you both work on podcast for BBC and you know,

50:45

the idea of working with an established public media organization is a dream for so many podcasters and BBC is really known for their integrity,

50:53

both within news and also within storytelling.

50:55

So uh just briefly, because we don't have that many minutes left and I do,

50:59

I do want to ask you a couple more questions, what have your experience has been working with BBC for me,

51:07

it's, it's been great. As I said,

51:09

Joel Hammer approached me um and he put everything together and um he's great,

51:17

they've been supportive and flexible,

51:20

but he's been the main contact there and I'm very proud,

51:26

my dad worked for the BBC when,

51:29

when he was younger, he was like a floor manager on top of the pops and that's so cool,

51:35

you serious on top of that is so cool.

51:38

You remember a couple years ago they unearthed this Beatles episode that hadn't been seen.

51:43

Somebody found like a recording that no one had found.

51:47

My dad and I were visiting London at the time and that was on the front page of the paper and he was like,

51:53

oh yeah, that that's the one that I worked on and I was like,

51:56

what? Of course had heard this story since I was a kid.

51:59

But yeah, he um he was standing for the Beatles during a rehearsal and like girls broken and were like,

52:05

they were like, we're not actually them and they were like,

52:07

oh no, Anyway, so it was cool for me to get to work for the BBC also.

52:13

Um Yeah, it's been it's been wonderful.

52:17

Yeah, it's been good. Yeah, there's been a couple of different clients,

52:20

so it's like, well this is a world service and five live collaboration and uh and sounds so also there's like little things that like,

52:30

we need to make various different podcasts, Episode one,

52:33

like in different ways, you know what I mean? There's like things like that which are like you need to just remember um But so that so that's been it's been good,

52:42

it's been fine. I know a lot of the people there,

52:45

Jon Manel was great. Um it's been fine.

52:48

Yeah, yeah, it's been good and they've been understanding of,

52:50

like illness and everything and this is our first big production for BBC and um,

52:55

yeah, like I worked there for eight years, like I respect so much of the institution,

53:00

must feel really full circle for you to come back.

53:03

It's really great considering I pitched my idea,

53:06

stance, podcast to BBC kind of informally when they were like getaways content.

53:11

Like, no, this was obviously before everyone woke up to a lot of stuff.

53:15

So yeah, in that way it's like really cool.

53:17

I'm like, wow, it's not a kind of like, look at me now,

53:19

it's not even about that, it's just about, I knew I was right.

53:22

So you sort of trust in those journalistic instincts have seen what's going on on the ground and you saw in the industry how podcasting is taking on.

53:29

Yeah, but also just how people were fed up with how narrative was after 2008 doesn't matter your political leaning actually.

53:35

I think both sides were annoyed. Um so yeah,

53:38

it's been nice. It's been good. And yeah, it's been it's obviously been a challenging first project,

53:43

but I'm glad that I've started in this way because I'm sure it can only get used for other projects that I do sound definitely,

53:53

yeah, it's incredible and it's so energetic with like the sports scenes and sports means that the right term,

53:59

the sort of tennis basketball scenes and it really like takes you somewhere.

54:03

So yeah, it's been, it's been interesting.

54:05

It's been good working with them. Yeah. You're also just so passionate about it and I think that that is such an important thing for all of this.

54:16

Like, like you said, you're the, the idea that you finished before and this thing to be able to do the work that you need to do,

54:21

it can't be something that you're like,

54:23

I think the BBC might like this. It has to be like,

54:26

I want to tell this story, me and I want to tell it in exactly this way and that,

54:32

that's having that core is it makes for an exciting project.

54:37

I can't wait to listen to it. Yeah.

54:39

Being that purpose driven. I know we're all so excited and the trailer is actually out and I believe the first episode is august 30th,

54:48

so or august august 30.

54:51

The trailers coming out next week.

54:53

The trailer coming out early, august and then a month later the podcast will be coming out.

54:57

So get ready. This is super exciting.

54:59

We're all very excited about it. So I want to ask you both about some highlights.

55:04

I mean crystal, you can't really share favorite episodes.

55:06

Okay, it's a bit behind lock and key.

55:10

But um, can you give us any sneak peeks of,

55:14

you know, moments or even moments in,

55:16

in or a Washington's journey that just kind of,

55:19

you know, blew you away or make an impact.

55:22

What I can tell you is we do have a picture where she basically she goes into maybe this is too much,

55:28

she goes into retirement and then comes back when she's like much older and smashes it and there's a picture of her with like younger team members and she like visibly like just looks so much older,

55:42

but she came back because I think people were saying that she wasn't good enough or something which ties into the competitive thing,

55:48

you know, so that is really great and yeah,

55:53

there's a surprise and and seven um and I think there's lovely bits where we really like paint a picture of what it was like living for instance in philadelphia which is where she moved from from the south and that's how she got into sports started late as well.

56:04

So that I like that bit as well. We really paint a picture of what it was like and again,

56:09

like what is really important to me is that what was happening in America at that time as well,

56:13

not just within the black community, not just within women getting more rights and things like that.

56:17

Um just generally, you know, because that's another thing as well,

56:20

some people like if you can do a story about black person, like you have to focus on everything connecting to being black,

56:25

like no, we can also tell stories and tell it in a really,

56:29

really wide way of american culture and history through this woman.

56:32

And so that's what you really get those are the moments that I like,

56:36

which really appeal to like my life history.

56:41

Yeah, I mean why not?

56:43

You tell other other stories have been told from other perspectives.

56:46

Why not tell the story of the world from this perspective?

56:50

Also exactly that and through the lens,

56:54

through the lens of that one person's journey.

56:56

Absolutely. Because it's still,

56:59

you know, whatever world events are happening at the time are still going to be relevant.

57:04

They're going to be relevant through the lens of that specific person's journey.

57:07

So I love that you said that. I think it's it's it's really important in terms of storytelling and factoring that in um allies.

57:16

We've got a couple more minutes favorite episodes of on the podium,

57:19

not not to name your favorite Children.

57:21

They're all so different.

57:24

And I kind of love them all as a,

57:26

as a, as a group because they're so different.

57:28

You hear such different stories from this past season.

57:32

Raven Saunders was really cool.

57:36

Um she's a shot putter.

57:39

Um and she was very open talking about her some of her mental health struggles and how that led to her making a real statement on the podium um which is tricky to do with the olympics.

57:55

They don't want political statements on the podium.

57:59

Um so the people who have done that,

58:01

it's a fine line that they have defined to express themselves.

58:06

Um so I really liked her and uh yeah,

58:10

so many people are gonna pittman last season.

58:12

Um Oksana Masters who is a paralympian in like multiple sports um and she was born in Chernobyl,

58:24

so and then adopted into America.

58:28

She has, I mean that these stories are chock full of so many fascinating and unique details that like other people have not gone through,

58:39

I can't wait to listen to yours,

58:41

I can't wait to listen to yours. And also Chernobyl really quickly.

58:44

So not relevant. Wasn't that an amazing series as well?

58:46

Remember the series Chernobyl wow,

58:49

so good. So I actually,

58:55

I was actually gonna ask you both what uh you know my next question for you is what podcasts are you,

58:59

are you both fans of? I am a big fan of,

59:04

you must remember this which is a podcast about history and the mostly the 20th century I believe of the movie industry and the post does a lot of cool stuff with actors and sound cues and interesting storytelling stuff and looks at different these older stories through the lens of today.

59:29

So they do feel really relevant.

59:32

It's not just kind of dusty history.

59:34

Um, and I also listen to a podcast called,

59:38

this is not a show which is to um male comedians and Long Beach Goofing around and being good friends with each other and unlike a lot of these comedy,

59:49

these podcasts that are just a couple of comedy dudes goofing around,

59:54

they're like really sensitive and supportive while also being maniacs.

1:00:00

Um it's a cool alchemy that they have found and I find really funny.

1:00:06

So the two ends of the spectrum,

1:00:08

Nice crystal, Oh this is such a hard one.

1:00:12

I like so many and I've got like the most random taste as well,

1:00:15

like um I'm gonna start with really random actually I'm going to shock you.

1:00:20

I like one called box which is like,

1:00:22

it's audio porn podcast,

1:00:24

It's really funny and it's hilarious.

1:00:27

It's french. I feature them on my podcast dance.

1:00:30

It's french. That's really cool. They just start 10 minute vignettes of like short stories,

1:00:34

erotica type thing, which is like super cool.

1:00:37

Um Dinner for one is one of my favorites,

1:00:39

which is again a prison based Bronx born,

1:00:42

no Jamaican born Bronx raised a woman who lives in paris moved there for love,

1:00:47

got married and they separated and it's about how she found like found herself through the healing power of food.

1:00:53

Not like not in that sort of like what's that show called again?

1:00:57

That show that people like what's love eat,

1:00:59

pray? Not like pray, you know exactly.

1:01:02

There you go. Sorry, not like that,

1:01:04

but it's like great. So I like that,

1:01:06

I love, I really like a lot of the stuff that pretty Euro studios do so loud history of reggaeton is awesome.

1:01:13

No one's done a real like a survey of reggaeton in history before.

1:01:18

Not even history wasn't historic, it was very popular take.

1:01:20

I mean like it was accessible but no one's kind of really done that.

1:01:24

I really like lemon are just work,

1:01:26

I have to say I have to say them because I love them and also worked there as well,

1:01:30

but I do love their work, which is why I wanted to work. Then they've got a good one called Good Sex,

1:01:33

which is so funny and brilliant.

1:01:36

And then they also have Last day as well which is a strand and if you're gonna do watch listen to that,

1:01:43

Listen to season one which is about the two founders and why they started and basically why I'm working for the company,

1:01:48

the sort of values that they have, this is what I want to get behind and put my energy behind.

1:01:52

Um so I'd say that that that oh and one last one called short and curly,

1:01:56

which I listened to my kids, which is Australians ethics podcast and it's hilarious.

1:02:01

It's like should we ban Families, which I think is a very interesting question actually,

1:02:04

can I say another one you're wrong about especially the first season,

1:02:09

very interesting stuff where they go back and look at older stories not that old,

1:02:13

like the nine and how they were told and how we got things wrong.

1:02:17

Like you know,

1:02:19

even just even just the story of like anna Nicole smith or tammy faye Bakker or acid rain and shaken baby syndrome and they go back and like we were actually told the wrong things and the media loved telling it very loudly.

1:02:35

That sounds so good.

1:02:38

Yeah, it's cool. I wrote for adam ruins everything which does the same thing but on tv so when I found this podcast I was like yes this is my ship,

1:02:45

my stuff,

1:02:48

this is my jam awesome.

1:02:50

I it's been such a pleasure to have you both here today.

1:02:55

Um I have one last question and then I'll read our brief intro.

1:02:58

So um crystal, let's start with you and I want to ask both of you what stories are you looking forward to telling in 2022 Eliza as you also work in television as well,

1:03:07

feel free to just you know, across mediums.

1:03:11

I think it's such a hard question because you never know what's gonna happen.

1:03:16

Obviously I think something that's like natural right now is like I want to do something about the environment,

1:03:20

I want to work on environmental stuff.

1:03:23

Um again there's so many lovely,

1:03:26

you can even hear so many great sounds um not that demon groom approach but also like crazy optimistic,

1:03:32

which is not helpful, more like solutions based.

1:03:34

I'm interested in that still want to continue doing narrative,

1:03:37

what would be narrative the environmental ones, but like still very much interested in first person narrative storytelling big societal topics also love fun.

1:03:45

You know, love fun and love to have a laugh. So anything that involves like having a laugh not in a mean way or snooty wait,

1:03:51

I'm on it so kind of that's what I'm thinking about.

1:03:53

And obviously I'm always thinking about drama and acting and like how could you do something really out there and wacky.

1:03:59

That would like touch a lot of people. But that that's it.

1:04:01

Really. Always think about food stuff. Yeah.

1:04:04

Anything. Have you watched the Julia series on HBO?

1:04:10

No, I haven't.

1:04:12

It's it's it's kind of like tv easy listening but in a really satisfying way,

1:04:17

I a friend recommended it and I was like,

1:04:20

I don't know, I wasn't that into that movie about it and was watching it was like this is so soothing.

1:04:24

Oh I like this watching this woman's passionate relationship with eggs.

1:04:29

Yeah, that sounds like everything that I like.

1:04:31

So yeah, just put it out so I'm going to check that out.

1:04:34

Thank you Charles. Is it based on her?

1:04:37

Yeah, so it's about her and and the team that she worked with and her relationship with her husband and all that stuff.

1:04:46

Um As far as what I'm interested in telling this year,

1:04:49

I right now I'm working on a project that I do annually which is called the Samis there these awards for public service and government work,

1:04:59

which is really, it's a treat for me every year that I get to do this.

1:05:04

Um I like the challenge of adding comedy to stuff that is not generally thought of as very comedic like working for the E.

1:05:12

P. A. Or uh the C.

1:05:14

D. C. Or whatever. I like making them funny in a way that's uh that's fun for people not like making fun of them but it's also a great chance for me to learn about things and then highlight things that our government does.

1:05:28

That's helpful because I feel like I'm inundated with messages about all of the frustrating and terrible things that are being political landscape and you know just the news cycle.

1:05:39

Absolutely. It's nice to celebrate those wins.

1:05:41

Yeah so these stories about people who have devoted their whole careers to taking care of people they'll never meet that that I really value.

1:05:50

Also I'm in my personal work in writing,

1:05:54

I'm really interested in telling stories about um middle aged,

1:05:59

about spinsters, about middle aged single women because I feel like we haven't seen a lot of stories like that and I think that it's terrorized women where they think oh I gotta find somebody and hold on to them which I thought of while watching all of these documentaries about about love frauds.

1:06:17

Like about about romance scammers like a Tinder swindler kind of thing.

1:06:21

So horrible. Yeah all of those.

1:06:25

I think a key reason that they work is because women feel like I have to have a partner I will there's no way I can especially meet the sea Second half of my life without a partner.

1:06:36

And so they meet someone and even though there are tons of red flags there,

1:06:40

like it doesn't matter, I have to hang on to them and I feel like if we had some more models of golden girls type living and things like that,

1:06:50

people then people could relax and be like,

1:06:52

Oh I'll be okay, whatever idea.

1:06:55

And I've got a golden girls, the golden girls were like,

1:06:58

what, 57 or something, 58 and was like 52 right now.

1:07:02

Yeah, I mean, yeah, but I mean, yeah,

1:07:05

it's a weird cultural like yeah,

1:07:09

yeah, there are tons of ways to live and they just haven't all been highlighted in mainstream media and so I think there's a lot of room for some of that next thing I know we're going to come back and you two have teamed up,

1:07:25

it's been such a pleasure,

1:07:27

thank you both for joining us Eliza skinner of on the podium and crystal genesis of the upcoming untold legends aura.

1:07:34

I'm going to read our brief outro and then we will end for today,

1:07:38

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1:07:41

Winning at sports and our live panel with BBC podcast featuring Eliza Skinner of on the podium and crystal genesis of the upcoming untold legends aura.

1:07:49

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1:08:38

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