0:00

We walk in and he's right there and he sees

0:02

us and he doesn't want us to show up at his court

0:05

for the entrapment and stuff and

0:07

he comes for us. He starts charging

0:09

us, and we're backed up against the window, like,

0:11

oh my god. Oh my god. And I'll send four

0:13

or five face officers, tag them to the ground,

0:16

put them in cuffs, and he's just live

0:19

it.

0:34

I'm Jamie Bibby. And I'm Jake Diptula.

0:36

On today's episode of Strictly Stock and we're chatting

0:38

with Athena and Amber, the hosts of ExWives

0:40

undercover who were stalked by the same man.

0:42

Both women separately met and married a man

0:44

who lied about who he was and then stopped

0:47

them when they left

0:47

him. Athena met married the man first

0:50

but soon discovered he was using steroids,

0:52

had jealousy issues, put trackers on her

0:54

car, and even con turn to a fraudulent mortgage.

0:56

When she finally left him, he continued to stock

0:59

her even after he met his new wife, Amber.

1:01

When Amber discovered he was not who she thought

1:03

he was and tried to leave

1:04

him, he followed her, called and texted her

1:06

nonstop and threatened suicide. Eventually,

1:09

Athene and Amber team booked to fight back and

1:11

will soon face him in court for his stalking crimes.

1:13

They became friends and started ExWives

1:15

undercover podcast to help others learn about

1:17

the sometimes dangerous and toxic behaviors

1:20

in relationships.

1:21

They're both here today to tell their intertwining stories.

1:24

Athena and Amber, thank you for joining us today.

1:26

Thanks

1:26

thanks for having us. Yeah.

1:28

Athena, why don't we start with you? Where did you grow

1:30

up? I actually grew up in a

1:32

suburb of Seattle in Washington

1:34

State. I was the youngest of three girls

1:37

born to my

1:39

beautiful redhead mother. My father

1:41

actually immigrated here from

1:44

Armenia, but they did divorce

1:46

when I was an elementary school. And

1:48

so I guess as a result, my sisters and

1:50

I were on her own a bit during

1:53

those teenage years. I

1:55

also had my daughter, Alexis,

1:57

at the age of eighteen years old,

2:00

first year of college, which was definitely

2:02

not planned, but the greatest thing to

2:05

ever happen to me, And then prior

2:07

to that, I mean, I was

2:09

just kind of, I guess, the all American

2:12

average teenager. I was a cheerleader. I

2:14

did gymnastics with, like, fast pitch. I

2:16

actually did get married

2:18

at 1T2, but at

2:20

the age of nineteen, that

2:23

is when I met my first

2:25

husband. And S4, again,

2:27

we were together. We raised our

2:29

daughter, Lexi, and that was that.

2:31

And so I really was ignorant to the dangers

2:34

of of dating and

2:36

making sure you knew more

2:38

about that person before you put

2:40

too much trust into them. What

2:43

was life like after your first divorce?

2:45

Oh, man. You know, it was

2:48

it was It was challenging for sure.

2:51

I had not been a

2:53

single mom really or solo, and

2:56

the man that I had married was not my

2:58

daughter's biological father. I was lucky

3:00

enough to have him step in and raise

3:02

her from a time she was six months old. So

3:04

it was tough. But within a

3:06

year or so, I just I got my

3:08

footing. I found my footing, and I

3:11

I decided to find myself again. And

3:13

so I was auditioning I

3:15

miss dancing. So auditioned for local football

3:18

team. I brought my little six year old

3:20

daughter with me to, you know,

3:22

once I'd made the I brought my six year old daughter

3:24

with me to the practices. They were kind enough.

3:27

You know, all these hot single women were like,

3:29

hi. Hi, little girl. Like, they're also

3:31

sweet. Made new friends,

3:34

and then quickly after that, the

3:36

craziest thing I actually got

3:38

bit by by a poisonous spider

3:42

and had to basically,

3:44

like, lock down in my home.

3:46

It was yeah, about four weeks.

3:48

I had to stay at home because I was on medication

3:50

that knocked my immune system out. So

3:53

that is how I fell into the world

3:56

of online dating, which

3:58

there were no apps back then. So you had to physically

4:01

log in to the match dot com type of

4:04

websites When you were online

4:06

dating, what was it about

4:08

your profile that drew to him?

4:11

It was a bit overwhelming to

4:13

see all of these single

4:17

men and I quickly

4:19

realized that It

4:21

was slim Pickens. And so when I saw

4:24

my stalker, he just presented

4:26

himself as a good old hometown

4:28

boy. He, you know, I think he's wearing a baseball

4:30

hat. Cahawks across it.

4:33

And he had a kind smile. And,

4:36

you know, the basics that he wrote about himself,

4:38

I just didn't feel like he was bragging he

4:41

looked kind. And so I think

4:43

that drew me in, and I definitely

4:45

was attracted to him. So yeah.

4:48

So I said why the hell not sent him an

4:50

email? I was definitely drinking

4:52

a few dozens of

4:53

wine, so I'd liquid courage. When

4:55

you reached out to him what was his

4:57

response? What were your first few interactions

5:00

like?

5:00

So funny because I don't even

5:03

I'm trying to think if there was texting. Do

5:05

you remember instant messaging? I

5:08

had lost my voice because I ended

5:10

up getting two strains of the flu,

5:12

bronchitis, laryngitis, everything you

5:14

can imagine. Because I didn't have an

5:16

immune system. And so

5:19

we were forced to get to know each other

5:22

through conversations. First through messaging,

5:25

then eventually, we started to talk,

5:27

but I was forced to stay at home

5:30

for another, like, two weeks before I could even

5:32

meet my soccer in person. And so,

5:35

you know, I I really enjoyed our conversations.

5:37

It went on and on and on and he

5:40

definitely presented himself

5:43

to be this great great

5:45

guy, no red flags, from what I

5:47

could tell at that time. And

5:48

what was that first meeting like? The

5:50

day went well. Oddly enough, he brought a

5:52

friend with him, whom which

5:54

he said that he

5:57

apologized for profusely for bringing this

5:59

friend, but he goes on to say

6:01

which now, Amber and I don't believe the story

6:04

to be true, but he goes on to

6:06

tell me that this friend of his walked

6:08

in on his long term girlfriend, having sex

6:10

with another man. And so

6:12

he just couldn't leave him because he was

6:14

drinking. He was out of his mind. He just couldn't leave

6:16

him alone. But he didn't want to cancel our date, you

6:18

know. And so I thought to

6:20

myself, wow, you are

6:22

a great friend. You are kind.

6:24

So I'm sure

6:26

he duped me again. But

6:28

overall, it was a very quick meetup. I had

6:31

to get on to my daughter. And so again,

6:33

no huge red flags. It went really

6:35

well. And previously,

6:37

I created this like dream vision

6:39

board. And he,

6:42

you know, within those first few

6:44

weeks, he had hit every single thing on my

6:46

my dream board. So was just thinking, wow,

6:48

I I met somebody who

6:51

I could see myself with long term, so I was

6:53

really excited. How long were dating

6:55

before you became serious with him and

6:57

what were the dates like? After,

7:00

I would say, about four or five weeks,

7:03

it got intense quickly.

7:05

He was very loving

7:07

and doting And as I had mentioned

7:10

being bit by that spider, I

7:12

had gotten sick once again after our first

7:14

date, I had the flu again. And so

7:16

we were supposed to go on our second date where

7:18

he wanted to introduce me to all of his friends,

7:20

which I was very fluttered about that. But

7:22

instead, he actually showed up at my

7:25

house, which I Like, I'd never

7:27

given them my home address. And

7:29

so I didn't know what to make

7:31

of it. I was afraid to

7:33

answer the door because I thought he'd run away and never talked

7:35

to me again because I looked like I was

7:37

dying. And then on

7:40

the flip side, I was just questioning,

7:42

like, how the hell do you know where I live?

7:45

So I realized again

7:48

later that I think he was trying to see if I was

7:50

lying, and think he wanted to come there to

7:52

see if I was really home. Or

7:54

if I'd lied and we'd have gone on a date with somebody

7:56

else, and that would have been just date two.

7:59

When did you realize that there were

8:01

a lot of red flags happening in this relationship?

8:03

Well, as I'd mentioned previously, we

8:05

did really rush into a serious

8:08

relationship quickly. And

8:10

because of that and because of the trust we had

8:12

built, previously before even meeting,

8:14

I think that led

8:16

me to make a terrible decision, which

8:19

was to allow my soccer to move in with

8:21

me temporarily. He'd asked

8:23

if he could move in, I think this was about

8:25

three or four months after we had met. And

8:28

it would just be, he said, I believe,

8:30

three or five weeks max while his

8:33

home was finished being built in

8:35

Fremont, which is a neighborhood in North

8:37

Seattle, And, you know, he'd

8:39

said he'd been building this beautiful home and there

8:41

were some finishing things, but he couldn't move

8:44

in and that his lease

8:46

was up on the place that he was staying,

8:48

and he didn't want to renew it for obvious reasons.

8:51

So once I

8:53

talked it over and thought about it, I did

8:55

say yes, And while I was there, I just started

8:57

noticing, like, why don't you ever talk about

8:59

your house? Why are

9:01

you excited to show it to

9:03

me? Or talk to me about the

9:06

things that you've chosen for new construction

9:08

home. Like, you're never on the phone with

9:10

a builder. Or anyone. And

9:12

so over those four,

9:14

five weeks, he didn't act like

9:16

he was going anywhere. And so I brought it up

9:19

over and over and eventually surprised

9:21

him at his work and was like, hey, let's go to

9:24

lunch and on that lunch, I was like drive

9:26

me over to your place, your new house, and

9:29

That's when he pretended to get this

9:31

work emergency call, and

9:34

that's when I knew for sure, like, this house doesn't

9:36

exist. He's lying. And so

9:39

he had made up the entire thing and

9:42

he promised to show it to me the next day,

9:44

but he packed up

9:46

all these things and completely

9:47

disappeared. After

9:48

he disappeared, when did you hear from him

9:50

again? My stalker did not contact

9:53

me probably for a few weeks. He

9:55

left me like a dear John letter and

9:58

I was just shocked

10:01

because in that letter, it was like, I don't

10:03

love you. I you deserve

10:05

somebody way better. But the truth was

10:07

he just didn't wanna complain. And

10:10

there was no house. He had no money. So

10:12

he flipped it on me. By

10:14

manipulating me to feel

10:17

bad about myself, I suppose. And then

10:20

all of a sudden few weeks later, he asked me to

10:22

meet up with him, and then he just lays

10:24

it on thick. You are so much better

10:26

than me. I am very much in love with you.

10:28

The guy you did before me has that beautiful

10:30

home on the water and And

10:33

I do have money, but I did lie about building

10:35

that house because I just didn't think that

10:37

you would want someone who

10:40

didn't have war in life. You own your own company

10:42

and this, that, the other, and for

10:45

him

10:45

and, you know, I'm just too good for him.

10:47

So I fell for it and took him back.

10:50

What was going through your head when he

10:53

had left you and

10:55

then came back into your

10:56

life? What kind of impact did that have

10:58

on you? It

11:00

was devastating. It

11:02

was devastating because I

11:05

hadn't dated, like I said, really

11:07

a lot, and to allow that

11:09

allow my stalker into my home with

11:12

my daughter there was I

11:14

felt humiliated. I felt so

11:17

much guilt for her. I

11:19

just felt, dude, I couldn't trust my own instincts,

11:22

like, how how could he

11:24

told me he loved me as much as he did and

11:26

make me believe all this? And then to read that letter

11:29

was like, I never loved you. I've

11:31

been lying to you. It was just so

11:33

hurtful. I remember just walking

11:36

in and just sitting down on the steps and

11:38

my daughter comforting me, which again felt

11:41

terrible to say. Like, it there was guilt

11:43

in that too. So it was

11:45

it was devastating and

11:47

just Yeah. I was pretty much

11:50

mind blown and just so confused.

11:52

Once you got back with him, what was

11:54

that situation like?

11:56

I would say it was great. He

11:59

moved right back in again, not

12:01

a good idea, but young and dumb.

12:03

I was kind of happy to have our little

12:05

mini family back again together, and

12:08

it was great until within a few

12:10

months, another red flag you know,

12:12

pops up and that

12:14

is where I find out

12:16

that he is stalking this

12:19

man that I very briefly dated.

12:23

And he was spending

12:25

him like basic death threats. Don't talk

12:27

to Athena. He

12:29

was just saying all sorts of

12:31

crazy things, and he sent it via

12:33

LinkedIn. And so

12:35

I ended up getting this call

12:38

from this old friend of mine who

12:40

tells me this and, you

12:43

know, of course, I confront my

12:45

stalker and he denies it. But

12:47

then it happens again. And then

12:49

this guy had previously dated forwards

12:52

me the messages, and there's no denying

12:54

it. of course, I call out my

12:56

then boyfriend, and he has to

12:58

admit it. But then again, he manipulates

13:01

me into I just I'm

13:03

so in love with you that I

13:05

just don't want you I

13:07

don't want him anywhere near you or talking

13:09

to you, and I just

13:11

I see myself married to you. I just do

13:13

stupid things. So once again,

13:16

wow, you really do love me.

13:18

So naive, stupid. Went

13:20

back to him, and then it was shortly

13:23

after that finding steroids hidden

13:25

throughout my house, cupboards,

13:28

in the garage, in shoes, in

13:30

the hidden in the refrigerator compartment,

13:33

the where the light bulb is. That

13:35

got knocked off by my young daughter where,

13:37

you know, these vials of steroids

13:39

come rolling out. So I

13:41

start realizing that there's

13:43

a lot more going on here and

13:46

that definitely started to

13:49

raise red flags. So after

13:52

I find out even more my stocker

13:54

and I break up for the second time and

13:57

this is when in my mind I have done

13:59

done done. And I

14:01

felt the sense of freedom and

14:04

he was begging and pleading

14:06

to get back with me and I was so strong

14:08

and I said no. Over and over.

14:11

And this is when he

14:14

would come to my home. He would leave

14:17

a bouquet of flowers. Every

14:19

single day for at least fourteen

14:21

days in a row with poems, with

14:25

love letters, he would call

14:27

me, he would text me nonstop, voice

14:29

messages, emails. And

14:32

little did I know every time I would

14:35

go to leave. He was like, he was just

14:37

pulling up right to my house, which

14:39

I'd later realized that I

14:41

he had put a a tracker on my vehicle.

14:45

He had also seen my

14:47

text messages and any of my email threads

14:49

because he put spyware on my cell phone

14:51

and on my laptop. I just

14:53

thought, wow, is he camped right outside

14:55

my neighborhood? And every time, like, he thinks

14:57

I'm leaving, he just kinda pulls up. But now

15:00

I know I mean, for all I know, he could

15:02

have been sleeping in his car, still doing that, but

15:04

it was the trackers that allowed him to

15:06

know my movements. And then

15:08

I would say about a month

15:11

or so later as crazy as this is.

15:13

I it's fourth of July. I'm

15:15

this really nice guy. I'm out on the water

15:17

and we kinda hit it off. We're both

15:19

honest with each other. He's going through divorce.

15:22

I just got out of a really toxic relationship.

15:25

And let's just have some fun, so that's what

15:27

we did. So I remember

15:29

meeting for breakfast down

15:31

at the Kirkland Waterfront where this

15:34

other gentleman had his boat parked at the Marina

15:36

and As

15:38

soon as I got up to leave, my

15:40

stalker walked right in and sat down

15:42

in my spot and started

15:45

crying, I'm giving the sob story to this

15:47

new man that I just met. And

15:49

when that didn't work, when his efforts

15:52

of asking him please don't talk

15:54

to her anymore. I love her. I made

15:56

mistakes. He laid it on thick.

15:58

And, you know, this this other guy was just

16:00

like, you know, I can't you know, she's

16:02

told me the things that you've done and

16:05

that's on her if she wants to be with you or not.

16:07

I, you know, there's nothing more I can say and

16:09

when that didn't suffice to my stalker, my

16:11

stalker offered him ten thousand

16:13

dollars to never speak to me

16:16

ever again. S4 I

16:18

got that phone call about a few hours later

16:20

from this other guy telling me what happened

16:23

and, of course, I'm just, like, Florida.

16:26

And this other gentleman is just like, this

16:28

is getting really weird, which clearly

16:31

was. After that, my stalker

16:33

would show up down at the marina. He

16:36

would stand across from the boat, his

16:38

this other men's boat, and he would just stand there

16:40

and watch us for hours. Making sure

16:42

we could see him. He would sit next

16:44

to my car S4 that when I would have

16:46

to walk back to my vehicle, he'd be waiting there,

16:49

sobbing, crying, he followed

16:51

me everywhere I went. And then

16:54

when he felt like none

16:56

of his tactics were working, that's when

16:58

My stalker went on to the

17:01

man that I was dating's boat in the

17:03

middle of the night, and he was pounding

17:05

on the cabin door trying to get him to come out

17:07

so that he could tase him and throw him

17:09

into the water and permanently get

17:12

rid of him. He admitted my

17:14

stalker admitted that to me later. And

17:18

so I don't know

17:20

what's wrong with me, a lot of things clearly

17:22

because after my stalker would

17:24

not leave me alone, I realized

17:26

that guy was dating, was an alcoholic, and

17:30

that maybe the grass wasn't greener.

17:32

I went

17:35

back to my stalker. And

17:37

I let him prove to

17:39

me the things that he was promising and

17:42

once

17:42

again, very big mistake.

17:45

When you took him back this time, what

17:47

else happened in your relationship? S4

17:50

very shortly, we're talking four to

17:52

eight weeks after him begging and

17:54

pleading, and I want to marry you, I want

17:56

to have child with you, I do

17:58

get pregnant. That is

18:00

when he completely

18:03

does one hundred and eighty, freaks out, does not

18:05

wanna have children, starts treating me

18:08

horrifically. And that's

18:10

when actually move to a different bedroom. He will

18:12

not leave and he will not

18:14

get out of my bedroom. So I take

18:16

a mattress and I put it on the floor in the

18:18

spare bedroom through my whole pregnancy and

18:20

I sleep on it and he refuses to leave my

18:23

home. There's nothing I can do.

18:25

I talk to the police. Unless I victim

18:27

because he received mail there in Washington State.

18:30

That was the only way I could get him out. He wouldn't leave.

18:32

So I started stacking my chips and

18:36

everything that I could think I could do to

18:38

save money S4 that I can prepare

18:41

to officially get

18:43

rid of him and serve him,

18:45

you know, those papers S4 that you leave my home.

18:48

And that's when he

18:50

comes up with the mortgage fraud and

18:53

my house pretty much goes into bankruptcy. I

18:55

saved it. I think a week before it was sold

18:58

on the court steps and

19:01

that was a whole other nightmare. He

19:04

told me about this mortgage company who

19:06

was doing these special

19:09

zero percent interest rate

19:12

loans. It was a part of the Obamacare Act,

19:14

I believe. And S4, really, he

19:17

really did not check into this company very

19:20

well at all. He just wanted

19:22

to get away with him

19:24

not having helped me with my mortgage for a few months.

19:26

And so what happened was this was a fraudulent

19:29

company and they had me sign

19:31

away basically, I allowed them to

19:33

speak on behalf of me, the mortgage company. And

19:36

when my current mortgage company would call

19:38

me, they'd say, don't answer it. You could interfere

19:40

with negotiations, this, that and the other.

19:43

And so I didn't. And then I

19:45

would say about a year later,

19:47

things still weren't set in stone. And

19:50

I decide to look into it more,

19:52

and my stocker and

19:54

I go to the location where

19:57

we'd gone before, and they had packed up

19:59

and left. They were completely

20:01

fraudulent, and I had

20:03

to contact my bank, and they said, no. Nobody

20:05

ever contacted us. You paid this

20:08

other company thousands of dollars to

20:10

redo this mortgage for

20:12

you via my

20:14

stalker. Which now

20:16

I wonder if he actually gave them the money,

20:19

and it was all scammed. So

20:21

after that, that actually ended

20:23

after the birth of our child. S4

20:26

I did have our baby

20:28

girl in August.

20:31

And it was like my

20:34

stalker did this you know, huge

20:36

change in his personality. He fell in love with

20:38

this little baby girl. Now I'm

20:40

confused in questioning myself. And

20:43

then he starts to show his two colors

20:45

again, and that's when I tried to leave

20:47

him. That's when he

20:49

begs and pleased with me that he

20:51

feels like there's something dark within him.

20:53

He doesn't know why or what's wrong, but

20:56

he started feeling like this around the age of eighteen.

20:58

He doesn't know how to control it. And

21:00

then he just he bagged and

21:02

he was pleading with me to

21:04

let him go see a doctor and get on medication

21:07

and just to give him a few months of

21:09

being on it to see if that

21:11

would work and if not, that he loved me enough,

21:13

that he would let me go. And

21:16

at that point, because we had our daughter

21:19

and I already had a child from a previous

21:21

marriage. I felt a lot of

21:23

pressure that

21:25

I needed to be politically

21:27

correct or try to be by

21:30

not having two baby daddies.

21:32

And so I I

21:35

just I went with it, and I gave him

21:37

the benefit of the doubt, and I thought, okay, I'm gonna do everything

21:39

on my power S4 that if it does

21:41

and I know I gave everything. And

21:44

so we did that. And on

21:46

meds, he was amazing. Great.

21:49

No red flags for probably a year and

21:51

a half. We got engaged during that time, but

21:54

then I would say a few months before the

21:56

wedding, I started noticing odd

21:58

behavior again. And

22:00

this is when I find the steroids

22:02

again. And figure out that

22:04

he is back on steroids and

22:07

his behavior is weird. He's acting

22:09

odd. And this is when he

22:11

goes to Vegas for his bachelor

22:13

party. He meets

22:16

another woman there. And

22:19

I find about about this other woman because

22:21

I find a burner phone on top of my refrigerator.

22:23

And they're getting ready

22:25

to go to on a trip to Mexico. This woman

22:28

lives in Canada. And

22:31

I confront him and there's a

22:33

whole fake story that is really his friend

22:35

that, you know, this on the other,

22:37

I guess I do a little stocking

22:40

of my own because I find her. I try

22:42

to talk to her, but I can't get through. Torch,

22:44

she doesn't believe me because my stalker had

22:47

manipulator so much that she

22:49

really thought I was the crazy one. So

22:51

in the end, I find out the

22:53

truth. I leave him, and

22:55

this is where he loses

22:57

his mind. Even though he had

22:59

done the cheating, the this and that, like, he

23:02

loses it. And starts with

23:04

suicide attempts. He

23:07

tries to he makes a contraption from

23:10

carbon monoxide poisoning in the garage. Where

23:12

my daughter would have found him. She was walking

23:15

home from school, and the police had to stop her.

23:17

He took her swing set chain, wrapped it

23:19

around his neck like he was gonna hang himself. In

23:21

the backyard. And he

23:24

took his car, he can't swim, and told

23:27

me that this was goodbye. He was driving into

23:29

the lake. To drown himself. Police

23:31

had to go after him there. Police were

23:33

at our home often, and

23:35

he still would not leave my house I

23:38

tried to do an intervention. Finally,

23:40

once I got him out of my house, that's

23:43

when he at what once again,

23:45

the same behavior showing up exactly when

23:48

I would leave, I kept trying to search

23:50

to find the tracking devices. He

23:53

knew everything. I was doing. He would show up

23:55

where I was bars,

23:57

parties, restaurants on

23:59

any of my dates. When he found

24:01

out I was talking to somebody new.

24:04

He chased me in his vehicle and tried to run

24:06

me off the road. That's when

24:08

I got in the way and ran into this this

24:10

boxing gym I was going to. And

24:13

he is so vain that he would let allow other

24:15

people to see how crazy he was. So

24:17

knew if I'd made it in the doors, that I

24:19

would be safe. And so

24:22

after that, it was my

24:25

stopper creating fake emails getting

24:28

burger foods to find

24:30

the men I was dating, to send

24:33

them again terrible information,

24:36

wrong information or pretend

24:38

to be somebody wasn't S4 that

24:41

they would meet up with him for, like, maybe a

24:43

a work meeting. To where then

24:45

he would threaten their lives or if he would want

24:47

to have a physical altercation

24:49

with them. So

24:52

Needless to say, my dating life did

24:54

not go very well. Who wants

24:56

to deal with that? That's crazy. He made

24:58

it to where nobody wanted to date me.

25:00

And then the smear campaign started.

25:03

After I went taken back, he and

25:05

he knew for sure the divorce was final.

25:08

He told anybody and everybody

25:10

could tell that I was

25:12

just a disgusting horror. I

25:14

was the one that cheated on him and had six

25:17

affairs I was a horrible mother.

25:19

I was uneducated, just

25:22

trashy. And, I

25:24

mean, he had he's very charming and very convincing,

25:26

so he had multiple

25:29

people believing these stories,

25:31

especially his new

25:33

fiance, which I didn't even know he was

25:35

dating, Amber came onto

25:37

the scene and she just had heard

25:39

horrible

25:40

things about me. So How

25:42

soon after the divorce was he

25:44

dating Amber? Gosh. Let's see.

25:47

I would think it had to open

25:49

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29:50

Amber, welcome to the show. Thank

29:52

you. Oh, Yay

29:53

me. Oh, boy.

29:56

Why

29:57

don't you tell us a little bit about your background

29:59

before you met your soccer? What was life like

30:01

growing up? So I actually

30:03

grew up in Oregon. So

30:06

Athena and Brandon were in Seattle,

30:08

Washington, so stayed above me. I

30:10

grew up in Portland, Oregon, you

30:13

know, parents still married, very

30:15

nuclear family, everything just

30:17

great. No big obstacles.

30:20

So I guess I was needing that in my life.

30:22

But, you know, I did

30:25

the college thing, miss Little Miss Perfect,

30:27

kinda just followed the rulebook, you know.

30:29

And by the time, don't I thing

30:32

with the rule bar is I didn't I

30:34

wasn't finding good men. I was dating,

30:37

I guess, you call them player type guys,

30:39

emotionally unavailable. I flocked to

30:41

them like no other. If some guy

30:43

called me, oh, he's weird.

30:45

Oh, don't like him. I want the one

30:47

that doesn't pay me attention. I want the one and

30:49

then that's something on me, but it

30:52

took me years to figure out it was an

30:54

issue with me. So when

30:57

twenty thirteen came along, Tinder

31:00

had just started. There was

31:02

no dating apps at that point. So

31:04

my friend joined. It was probably three,

31:07

four months of gaining big

31:09

popularity. So she's like, she called

31:11

it a networking app. So

31:14

she's like, you you should get on this networking app.

31:16

I just moved to Portland and I was in

31:18

my mid to late thirties at this point. So

31:20

I really wanted to be married, have a family,

31:22

do all the things that all my friends had already

31:24

done previously. S4

31:27

I get the app, didn't use it, but I was

31:29

told it was a networking app. So

31:31

couple weeks later, I go to Seattle

31:33

to visit my friend. And

31:35

she's single and she's in the same

31:38

age range. She doesn't wanna do social media,

31:40

she doesn't wanna do match dot

31:42

com, none of that stuff. And

31:44

so we had gone out for some

31:46

drinks. I had been a little intoxicated, and

31:48

I said, what about a networking app?

31:51

Because you can meet people, you know, just

31:53

for friends. Like, you know, she was having a hard time

31:55

meeting people. And so I I

31:57

made her download Tinder. And that night,

31:59

in our drunken stooper, we were scrolling,

32:01

but I was accepting everybody. Instead

32:03

of the other way, I forget it. So

32:05

swipe left or right. Anyways, it

32:07

was actually on my phone, the app. And

32:09

so I was like, CCC and she kept saying,

32:11

well, this looks like a dating app. I'm like, I know.

32:14

It does. Doesn't it? But it's not. It's

32:16

a networking app. So you

32:19

know, we put it away and that was that.

32:21

Well, the next morning, I'm driving home

32:23

back to Oregon, and my phone is

32:25

blowing up by men, but I had clearly

32:28

swiped right on or whatever.

32:30

And my stalker was one of those

32:32

guys. Unfortunately.

32:34

What was it about his profile

32:37

once you saw it again, that kinda stood out

32:39

to that made you respond to him. Oh,

32:42

so just at first glance,

32:44

he was not my type. He was

32:46

the exact opposite of any guy that I'd

32:48

ever been attracted to. And so immediately, I

32:50

wrote him off. No. No. No.

32:52

I'm not in the beefcake kind of guys, and that's what

32:54

we would jokingly call him was beef

32:56

cake, but beef cake kept

32:59

texting me. He was relentless. He

33:01

was really sweet though, and

33:03

really kind, and he was funny. And so I

33:05

ended up just chitch heading on Tinder

33:07

for probably three to four weeks.

33:09

And I was kinda liking him. I was like, how could he

33:12

be, like, this douche bag and his

33:14

pictures? He had the shirtless pictures,

33:16

the QC fake, pictures, like, just really

33:18

douchey. I was not about it. And

33:20

I couldn't figure out, like, why is he so

33:22

cool, but yet his pictures are saying everything

33:25

else. And so my friend

33:27

kept saying, Amber, clearly, what you're doing isn't

33:29

working. You've been single forever. You've

33:31

been giving these non committal

33:34

type guys. So many chances, this

33:36

douche bag, he's actually doing what

33:38

every man should be doing. He's treating a woman

33:40

how she should be treated. He's

33:43

following up. He's persistent. He's

33:45

respectful. He's all the things. So they

33:47

they kind of were like, maybe you should go up

33:49

to Seattle and meet him. Felt

33:51

like, okay, but I don't think I'm gonna

33:53

like him. I'm pretty sure I'm not. So,

33:57

you know, we we met. We

33:59

had a great weekend, great time, but I still

34:01

was like, no, I'm not.

34:03

I just can't. I'm not. This house

34:05

is gonna work anyways. Like, we're

34:07

a state of heart. It's like about a three

34:09

to four hour drive. But my friend on that drive

34:12

home, she's like, he's not that bad. You may not have

34:14

felt butterflies for him or

34:16

you know, just this passion for him,

34:18

but he seems like a really good guy, Amber,

34:20

and he's really into you. And

34:23

you should give him a try. Just give him a try.

34:25

Give him a couple more dates. So

34:27

I did. And he came to Portland the next

34:29

weekend and

34:32

we spent literally from ten AM

34:34

at a coffee shop until it closed and they kicked

34:36

us out at, like, five or six. And then we

34:38

went to a restaurant and stayed there till it closed

34:41

And as the day went on,

34:44

I was, like, liking him a little bit more

34:46

and a little bit more and I was so smitten.

34:48

It was crazy. He

34:51

was kind. He

34:53

got more attractive to me in a weird way. I was

34:55

like, he's not actually not bad. He's

34:57

got a nice physique. He's, you know,

35:00

professional. He he loves his

35:02

his daughter that he raved about

35:04

and he would talk about wanting to

35:06

start a charity for underprivileged children,

35:09

and he would talk about how he was

35:11

bullied, he was obese as a child,

35:13

and things that he wanted to do

35:15

in the future for kids that were

35:18

bullied like him.

35:19

So by the end of that, I was all

35:21

about him. What were you learning about

35:23

him and his other relationships? Had

35:26

you heard about Athena at this point in

35:28

these first couple of dates?

35:30

No. He minimized her so

35:32

much. He told me he was married,

35:34

but it wasn't until he

35:38

proposed, like, a few weeks later, then

35:40

he drops the bomb. So he kept

35:42

her very we didn't end

35:44

on a good note, but he didn't elaborate.

35:47

It was very quiet. But

35:49

I did do a background search. But the problem

35:52

was that it was the whole state of Washington

35:54

and he has a very generic name. And

35:56

you can't click the links to see what

35:58

specific ones are related

36:00

to him and which ones could be someone else.

36:03

So I felt like I was doing my due diligence

36:06

and I went to him and I said,

36:08

hey, a little problem here. Like, I

36:10

know we've only met just for a couple weeks,

36:12

but just trying to protect

36:14

myself and be smart about things and, you

36:16

know, this came up on you. Can you

36:18

explain and he said, oh, this

36:21

happens to me all the time. The

36:23

information is not correct and they get mixed up.

36:25

And he's like, let me give you a real one

36:27

because I'm very high up in my company. And

36:29

they would never hire me if I had any kind of criminal

36:32

history. So that's how we kind

36:34

of spun that. And so it kind of made me feel

36:36

like, okay, then I guess what he's saying

36:38

is is right. And I did not know how to navigate

36:41

online. I didn't think that any of those case

36:43

numbers were public information.

36:46

S4

36:46

I didn't know that you could actually go online and

36:48

and research some of them or do public information

36:50

request. And it's a whole obstacle

36:53

that I later learned

36:54

out, unfortunately. How soon after

36:56

you met him

36:57

did he propose? Six weeks.

36:59

And you said yes. It was in

37:01

a public place. Yes. S4

37:04

there was a huge red flag prior

37:06

to that. On our second date,

37:09

he told me, at the end of the night, he

37:11

said, I something to tell you, and it's something I've never

37:13

told anyone in my in my life. It's so

37:15

personal as the most devastating thing

37:17

that's ever happened to me. And I'm like, whoa. What?

37:20

And he said, I was drugged and

37:22

raped. And as a result, a child

37:25

came about. And I'm just like, oh, wait.

37:28

I'm sorry. What? You know, it was just

37:30

like, I should preface this by saying he

37:32

wasn't claiming that this woman overpowered

37:34

him pinned him down. He basically

37:37

was implying she slipped him some type

37:39

of a roofie concoction, and

37:41

he basically blacked out

37:43

where he doesn't remember much, and he felt like he

37:45

wasn't in a place where he could consent. So

37:48

it was very gray, very like, I

37:51

guess that maybe can happen. But he also say,

37:53

she confessed to raping him and went to jail

37:55

for six months and that the

37:57

child he didn't owe child

37:59

support. It was just very, like, oh

38:02

my gosh, you know, one of those things. But again,

38:04

he he kinda puts it under the rug and

38:06

we never talked about it again. So in those six

38:08

weeks, before he proposed. It was

38:10

love bombing. It was every day,

38:13

all day texting me, calling me. I really

38:15

felt like I was getting to know him every

38:17

single weekend for three days in a row from the time

38:19

we got out of work till the Sunday night

38:21

when he went home, because we would just do the long

38:23

distance. I would drive up to Seattle. He'd come to Portland.

38:26

I really felt like we were getting to know each other,

38:28

and he was being vulnerable and telling me

38:30

about everything. So that

38:32

though, he kinda never talked about it again.

38:35

So Right at Christmas, he says,

38:37

I have another gift I'm gonna give

38:39

you, Amber. It's just it's getting specially ordered.

38:42

I'm like, oh, Oh, okay. So

38:45

a couple weeks after Christmas was right after

38:47

New Year's. He's like, I'll give you a hint because

38:49

I kept saying, what what did you get me? S4

38:51

it would give me hints every single day and

38:54

my mom picked up on it. I am oblivious

38:56

clearly because I was not in a place where I was ready

38:58

to marry this guy. It'd only been six

39:00

weeks. And so my mom's he said

39:02

something about halo and she's

39:04

like, don't think he's gonna propose you. And

39:06

I remember saying absolutely not.

39:09

No. That's ridiculous. So in my

39:11

mind, all the clues that he

39:13

was giving me, I thought he was giving

39:15

me a watch. And so we were in a public

39:17

place, and I had a couple drinks. And

39:20

I said, hey, I know what you're gonna get me.

39:22

And he said, what do you think it is? I said, so

39:24

and I shoved my hand at him like put it on

39:27

and he whips out a box and I

39:29

about

39:29

died. And we're like all these people

39:31

are around and he he proposes.

39:35

And

39:35

I'd never been proposed to my whole life.

39:37

And so it wasn't romantic.

39:39

It wasn't anything, but I just

39:41

remember kind of mouth on the ground going,

39:44

okay. Okay. You

39:46

know, like, I guess we're doing this thing. And but,

39:48

again, even me, accepting the

39:50

engagement, I thought, oh, we'll be engaged for

39:53

couple years. It's alright. We'll just put the ring

39:55

on and it'll be be good.

39:57

He said, I know we live in different states,

39:59

and I have already been looking

40:01

for jobs in Oregon. I haven't told you about

40:03

this, but I got job. With Nike,

40:06

which is a local, obviously, company

40:08

here in Portland, close to where I live. And he had

40:10

said he had been interviewing, and he had

40:12

got a job offer. And so he was gonna move.

40:14

To Portland. And so I was like, okay. But

40:17

for me, I'm

40:18

like, well, what about your your daughter,

40:20

Sydney?

40:21

Like, how's that gonna work? You know,

40:23

that's she's only four. And

40:25

he said, well, you know what? That's when he starts

40:27

throwing at the end of the best. I think I

40:29

need to tell you about my first wife, and he

40:32

told me the horrible things about her and

40:34

how she was so terrible that he would

40:36

rather move away from his daughter

40:39

than have to co parent by himself. And

40:41

I remember just thinking so naively,

40:43

like, oh my gosh, that's that's awful.

40:46

I can't imagine, like, it could be that terrible

40:48

and I just couldn't accept

40:50

him moving away from his daughter. And so

40:53

stupidly, I volunteered. I said, you know

40:56

what? I don't have children. My

40:58

family. I love my family, but they're only three hours

41:00

away. I can drive anytime I want, how

41:02

about I moved to

41:04

Seattle, and that was such a huge

41:06

mistake because I got trapped up there for

41:08

several years and all

41:10

the lies started unfolding once I got

41:12

myself up there. How soon after that

41:14

were you

41:15

married? And was he still telling you stories

41:17

about Athena? Oh, yes.

41:19

So I remember thinking

41:22

Okay. Well, she sounds pretty awful. I never

41:24

in a million years thought he would be lying because

41:26

who does that? You know what I mean? So

41:28

I just took his words at face value and

41:31

then once I moved

41:32

there, so I got a job actually within,

41:34

let's say, we got engaged early January

41:37

and by February eighteenth that was moved to

41:39

Seattle. So I got a job very quickly. So,

41:43

you know, I warn anyone don't

41:45

make big old life miss like

41:47

life changing decisions that

41:49

quickly because it'll come in invite you

41:51

in the butt, and that's what happened to me because

41:53

I I thought I knew this person, but once

41:56

you do something like that, I was financially

41:58

strapped I got rid of all my furniture because

42:00

he already had a fully furnished home and

42:02

I had a brand new job. I quit my other job, didn't

42:05

have anything to go back to. So and my pride

42:07

and my ego, I I assumed people

42:09

were making bets on how long this is gonna

42:11

last. And so I was bound in a term and

42:13

I was gonna make this last and it was gonna

42:15

work. But once I got there and

42:18

you know, we had fifty fifty custody.

42:20

It was every other day, all the horrible

42:22

things. More and more information about this horrible

42:24

ex wife. And he

42:27

would get off the phone, and I couldn't even tell if

42:29

he was actually on the phone with Athena. And he'd be like,

42:31

oh, it was Athena again. She said this. She wants

42:33

to have another baby with me. And I'm like, whoa.

42:36

Who says that? Oh my god. Like, that's

42:38

not cool and he would just

42:40

throw her under the bus and so it felt like

42:42

constant drama. Over parenting

42:44

plan stuff. And and it wasn't

42:46

just him. It was like like,

42:48

Athena mentioned earlier, the smear campaign

42:50

with these guys is like nothing

42:52

I've ever seen. And I couldn't fathom

42:55

that he it was friends.

42:57

It was family. It was his childhood friends

42:59

who were talking horribly about Athena. His mother

43:01

father random strangers in the community

43:04

he had gotten to. If her met if

43:06

Athena's name was mentioned, they would say

43:08

horrible things. And so I'm like, wow, she

43:10

sounds like the

43:11

devil. My god. This is so bad.

43:13

This is

43:13

so bad. Had

43:15

you met her in person at this point?

43:17

No. He he did not give

43:19

me her phone number. He did not want me to talk

43:21

to her because he didn't want me to know

43:23

what Athena knew. So it was probably

43:26

towards the end of April. We met very

43:28

briefly at his daughter's gymnastics meet.

43:31

And he prepped me before, like, we are not

43:33

talking to her and her new boyfriend. They're gonna

43:35

stay on their side. We're gonna stay on our side.

43:37

She's a terrible person. And it was awkward

43:39

as hell. It's terrible. And

43:41

then I didn't have any communication with

43:44

her. He did not let me co parent or join

43:46

in on those conversations, so I just

43:48

believed

43:49

all these terrible things for about a

43:51

year until I reached out to Athena. How

43:53

soon were you married to him after you

43:55

moved out there? We didn't get married until

43:58

twenty seventeen. So I moved in twenty

44:00

fourteen and there was a lot of ups and downs

44:02

and drama. And lies. So with me,

44:04

it wasn't so much stocking. He had a sitting duck

44:06

essentially that was buying

44:08

all this information. He was kept keeping

44:10

us separated, and I was growing to not

44:12

like her more and more and more. And

44:15

then because I was in my late

44:17

thirties, I really wanted to have children. So we

44:19

started the IVF process. So if

44:21

anyone who's gone through it, your hormones are

44:23

jacked up, you are temperamental, you're

44:26

emotional, your everything out of

44:28

the sun. So I'm so erratic

44:30

and so many things are not adding up. And

44:32

I felt powerless and felt by myself

44:34

stuck up in Seattle. And the lies.

44:37

The it was just, well, that doesn't make sense.

44:39

I'm asking about this child that was from

44:41

rape and things weren't adding up and I

44:43

I start going to the Portland court court system,

44:45

like, okay. He said he was raped in Portland. I can't

44:48

find the documents, and so I'm asking

44:50

him questions. And then that's when he starts giving

44:52

me fake fraudulent court records.

44:55

Every time there was an emergency, he had

44:57

a stomach tumor right off the bat, a cancer

45:00

stomach tumor. Then at one point, he had leukemia,

45:03

I mean, it was just insanity,

45:06

and I was under so much stress, and I couldn't

45:08

figure out what was lies and what was truth. And

45:10

noam was telling me, and he had everyone lying

45:12

for him. And it

45:14

was just this cycle. I I couldn't

45:16

get out. Every time I tried, I threatened

45:19

to move back home, he would say he was gonna

45:21

kill himself. And so then he's the only

45:23

child. And I don't wanna be the reason that Athena's

45:25

daughter doesn't have father. I don't want his mom

45:27

to no longer have a child because of me and

45:29

so it's this psychological trap

45:31

that happens, it was terrible.

45:34

During those three years, were

45:37

you finding out about the lies,

45:40

or did that happen after? I was

45:42

trying

45:42

desperately, so this is when I was kinda

45:44

trying to do my own undercover work. So

45:47

I was up there about three years before

45:49

I finally moved back to Oregon. And

45:51

I never could get the truth. I couldn't

45:54

get a definitive answer. I met with Athena

45:56

once and she's like, no. No. He's not telling

45:58

you this, but then I'd come home and he'd gaslight

46:00

me. And then he'd give me more fake

46:02

documents, and he would have me block her

46:04

from my phone, so I couldn't communicate anymore

46:06

with her. And it was just insane.

46:09

So by the time I was

46:11

mentally, like, I feel like I'm gonna have a mental

46:13

breakdown. At the end of twenty

46:16

eighteen, I realized I

46:18

opened his mail and

46:20

I had confiscated it from

46:22

a townhouse when he said he had cancer.

46:25

And I opened it and I realized that he still had that

46:27

townhouse. And then I saw

46:29

a fake Facebook profile. So he

46:32

He would change his name on social media. He

46:34

would spell things backwards or it was

46:36

very weird. Now, why are you doing that? Oh, I don't

46:38

want Athena stalking me. She's so

46:40

nosy and there's weird stuff, and I'm like, but that's

46:42

weird. Like, that's weird. So I end

46:45

up going to his friend's profile because, you

46:47

know, there like, a woman always has this incredible

46:49

intuition. And I went to

46:51

his friend's Facebook, and I went

46:53

through his friend's friend list, and I saw

46:55

this profile with his initials.

46:58

And he had a profile picture of this other

47:00

woman. And I'm like, what the f? Oh

47:03

my god. And and I heard about this

47:05

crazy girl that he told me stalking

47:07

him from his hometown, and I lost

47:09

my stuff. And

47:12

I ended up saying, okay. So he also

47:14

to backtrack. I'm sorry if this sounds a little confusing.

47:17

It also gave me fake

47:19

parenting plans. So I thought

47:21

that I was following the parenting plan. And

47:23

it said that was not allowed to contact

47:26

Athena or anyone in her family because

47:28

it being contempt of the court if I did

47:30

and that everybody had to use a parenting

47:33

app. I thought Athena was on it.

47:35

She was not. He created fake profiles for

47:37

her and her husband, and he was communicating

47:39

in this app for about year

47:42

And so had no idea that I was not talking

47:44

to Athena this whole time. So

47:47

in December of twenty eighteen, I

47:49

lost my mind. We had gotten married the previous year

47:51

because, again, it was the same thing like Athena.

47:53

I promised, like, I'll come clean

47:55

with every thing and everything will be great and so

47:58

I believe the dumb promises and it was

48:00

almost like I want you to show me that you're

48:02

in this and that you're committed to me and it

48:04

was so stupid to do that, but got

48:06

married. Then I moved back home to Oregon.

48:08

Yes, Amber, I'm gonna move with you. Nothing.

48:11

Just nothing. There's always an excuse.

48:13

How so would fall through. We tried buying houses.

48:15

Things would fall through. Then he gets

48:17

leukemia. And it was just at three

48:20

year I guess I was four year, almost five. I

48:22

was like, nope, I'm just done. And then I found

48:25

the the profile with the other woman and

48:27

that he had another living situation. So

48:30

I reached out to Athena finally,

48:32

and that's what I was like, I don't really care if the courts

48:34

find me in contempt. I I gotta figure this

48:36

out. This is insane. So we

48:39

start talking. We were made to kinda not like

48:41

each other. Obviously, she at one point didn't

48:43

like me back because he would tell her

48:45

the horrible things I was saying about her

48:48

And so it was just, you know, the

48:50

typical ExWives not liking each other

48:52

or whatever, but we ended up comparing

48:54

stories and every other day was

48:57

another shocking lie. And I

48:59

I was like, I'm I've been with the sociopath

49:02

for five years.

49:08

This episode is sponsored by Better Help.

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52:01

Athena, what did you

52:03

think when she finally reached out to you?

52:06

And how did you react to

52:07

her? Yeah. It was it

52:09

was emotional. I I tried

52:12

really hard to get

52:14

her information in a way because I thought

52:16

I could help save her. But

52:18

at the same time, she was very good and very

52:20

kind to my daughter. And I felt

52:22

this sense of relief that she was present

52:24

because her I knew kind of father

52:26

my daughter had. So

52:28

it was a double edged sword. It's like if they

52:30

break up, then there goes that

52:33

trustworthy person from

52:36

my daughter's life. But on the flip side,

52:39

this woman hates me. She

52:41

doesn't believe me, and I know how

52:44

good her, you know, my ex husband,

52:46

her then husband is and how manipulative.

52:49

And so it got so overwhelming. So when she

52:51

finally reached out to me, I

52:54

was shocked. Because

52:56

she had blocked me in every platform. So to

52:58

hear my phone ping and looked down on CRNAM was

53:00

like, what the oh, what?

53:02

And then I'm reading it, and it's like,

53:06

something like, hi, Athena. Just want you

53:08

to know that so and so and

53:10

I are getting divorced because he's

53:12

with this other woman and

53:15

And I don't remember Amber. Do you remember exactly

53:17

what it said? But I was like, wait, what?

53:19

I think I just, like, word bombarded because

53:22

I was so jacked up on a a drone.

53:24

Like, what else do I know? And so at this point, I

53:26

knew had a a house that was, you

53:28

know, and this one girlfriend. But

53:30

then when me and her started comparing notes,

53:33

then we found out another girlfriend. Then

53:35

we found out his daughter was a part of it the

53:37

whole entire time. She was between the

53:39

time they divorced when she was two adults,

53:41

she was nine, when when he came and I

53:44

split, she was lying for her dad. She had

53:46

multiple bedrooms in these women's homes,

53:48

and she was made to lie. So every night,

53:51

I I always thought it was weird. I said, how

53:53

come we don't go in at night to tuck

53:55

Sydney into bed and kiss her

53:57

in whatever read a book? And he'd be like, oh, she just

53:59

loves you so much, Amber. She'd rather you go buy her or

54:02

you go by yourself. So I would go

54:04

in, kiss her, and I love

54:06

you. Then he would go in and he would

54:08

stay in there for, like, thirty, forty minutes

54:10

sometimes. And I thought, Well, what's taken

54:12

so long? Oh, she want me to read a book?

54:15

She ran me to sing some songs, but what

54:17

he was really doing, he was quizzing her. Okay,

54:20

Sydney, I'm gonna be mom. Hi, Sydney,

54:22

what you do over the weekend, and she'd have to

54:24

practice what she'd say. And then he'd say, like,

54:26

okay, now I'm gonna be Amber. Hi, Sydney.

54:28

What'd you do? You know, whatever? And she would practice

54:30

until she memorized it. And she couldn't go to

54:32

sleep until she got everything right.

54:35

So we were just dumbfounded

54:38

at every other thing. Like, did he

54:40

have cancer? No. He did not have

54:42

cancer. Did he have

54:43

this? No. He did not have Like,

54:46

oh, I can't even tell you. Was

54:48

he raped? No. That never

54:50

happened. And then

54:52

all while he was trying

54:55

to carry on this

54:57

this fake false life

54:59

and fake story, I

55:01

would get the threats, the death threats, constantly.

55:05

Keep your mouth shut, don't say anything,

55:07

and I would constantly say,

55:09

you better tell Amber the truth or I will.

55:12

And so it was him

55:15

rushing over my house, pounding on my door, trying

55:17

to get into my house, and

55:19

then the emotional please crying,

55:21

begging, and then wanting to pay me off

55:24

to not tell her the truth, S4

55:26

I got it on the back end during their relationship

55:28

as well. And then my

55:31

child did not know what to believe because

55:33

he carried on this the storyline in

55:35

front of his wife, Amber,

55:38

where she was hearing

55:40

all these things and thinking, is this

55:42

true? So it was hard

55:44

because then she'd come home and think

55:46

that I'd done these terrible things or

55:49

I was this other person. But then and

55:51

she was young. She was very little. And so then deep

55:53

down over time, she started realizing

55:55

what her father was doing was wrong. And

55:58

during the uncovering, between Amber and

56:00

I, I mean, yeah,

56:02

there was a three year relationship he had,

56:04

off and on, a two year relationship, off and on,

56:06

a woman in Norway. So

56:08

in a whole other country, you know, he

56:10

had spent time with that woman who flew in

56:13

to California and made

56:16

up this whole story to his wife

56:18

then, Amber, that CPS had

56:20

taken Sydney away. So he said

56:22

he had to come up from Oregon to

56:24

Seattle to deal with the whole CPS

56:27

thing. But, really, we were in Hawaii on

56:29

a family vacation. So when she came back

56:31

looking all tan, you know, stepmom

56:33

at Amber's like, Dang, are you looking good? Like,

56:35

you know, like, are you are you everything okay?

56:38

Being loving and nurturing? And then city

56:40

climbing up and, like, running up the stairs, like, I

56:42

gotta go by and trying

56:45

to remember what to say, what not to

56:47

say, and soon, Cindy

56:50

just stopped communicating and

56:52

talking. And she never knew,

56:55

you know, she didn't wanna get caught.

56:57

Up in the wrong, you know,

56:59

storyline and then suffer the wrath of

57:01

her father. So

57:03

it was just a big mess. After

57:06

you left Tim Amber and you moved

57:08

away, you reached out to Tina. You

57:10

guys were talking, finding

57:12

everything out, How long did

57:15

that go on for? And what

57:17

was your

57:18

relationship, Amber, with your soccer

57:20

at that point? S4 in

57:22

twenty December of twenty eighteen is when

57:24

we kind of opened the lines of

57:26

communication. And I

57:28

was full steam ahead. I'm divorcing him. So at

57:30

this point, now I'm in Oregon. He's got a townhouse

57:33

in Seattle, so he's living up there. And

57:35

he's stalking me. He's calling me up obsessively.

57:37

Please, please, I love you. I love you.

57:39

And just like with Athena, he said, I have

57:41

darkness within. So this

57:43

time, I'm just thinking he's mentally

57:46

ill person. This is nuts, and

57:48

there is absolutely something wrong with you. And

57:50

I went to the doctor, unfortunately, I

57:53

was still trauma bonded with him.

57:55

And I felt like

57:58

if anyone's gonna get him to get help,

58:00

it would be me because he was so desperate

58:02

to get me back. And so I went

58:04

to Seattle Doctors with him. He was diagnosed

58:06

with borderline personality disorder, which

58:09

is the cluster b, same as sociopath, psychopath,

58:12

narcissism. I didn't

58:14

know anything about that diagnosis.

58:16

And the doctors said, oh, this has a

58:18

great, you know, recovery. Right? No big

58:20

deal. And he really downplayed it. My

58:22

mom was like, Amber, please don't go back to him.

58:25

Don't do it. And I

58:27

did for about three weeks until I couldn't

58:29

handle it. But during that time, he

58:32

Athena had gotten a restraining order

58:34

from seeing the daughter until he got mentally

58:37

well. And they were coming up with a a temporary

58:39

parenting plan so that she would be protected

58:41

moving forward. So his

58:43

behavior just in the barrel,

58:46

like in the tubes, it just It

58:48

was scary. And I started writing in a journal

58:50

and I would write, he's threatening to kill

58:52

Athena. If dose goes on any longer,

58:55

he's saying, things like, if she's goes

58:57

missing, you'll know why and you'll know who did it.

59:00

And he would I mean, throw

59:02

things. He was so erratic, and I'd never seen

59:04

that, but before in the five years prior.

59:06

I remember just writing, like, I don't know who this person

59:09

is, and he's spiraling. I don't know if he's taking his medication.

59:11

I don't know what's going on, but I'm scared. And so

59:13

after three weeks, done. I just

59:16

I filed. And I told

59:18

Athena in everything what was going

59:20

on. And then, you know, I took

59:22

his daughter to Disneyland, and

59:25

she couldn't see him and she wanted to give him

59:27

a souvenir. So I said, listen, baby,

59:29

I'll drop you off at your moms. I'll I'll get

59:31

your souvenir to your dad. I was

59:33

just like I just I just don't wanna be a

59:35

part of this anymore with him. Unfortunately,

59:38

I went inside of his home to give him the

59:40

souvenir, and I wanted in a weird

59:42

way I wanted him to tell me because I was learning

59:44

stuff with with Athena about

59:47

various women and all these lies, and I kinda

59:49

wanted to hear it from his mouth. S4 went

59:51

in. And while we

59:53

were there a couple hours later into the conversation,

59:55

he's unloading everything that's going on, and

59:57

I'm everything was fine. And then one of his girlfriends

1:00:00

texted me. And I started reading the message

1:00:02

and he lost his shit. And I'm like, well, she texted

1:00:04

you texted this to her today, so can you,

1:00:06

you know, you're telling me you want me back, but you're

1:00:09

texting, kind of verbatim. You've

1:00:11

been telling me, so he

1:00:13

gets up and he goes to the kitchen and he grabs

1:00:15

a knife. And he says,

1:00:18

if you say one more word, I'm gonna kill myself

1:00:20

right now. And so I stopped.

1:00:22

And then he proceeded to just throw

1:00:25

things across the room, the veins in his

1:00:27

neck were popping out, and I was horrified.

1:00:30

And I tried to get out and he'd trapped

1:00:32

me in his home. And I couldn't leave. And so then

1:00:34

I start panicking and I'm balling and

1:00:36

I finally get away and I run down the stairs

1:00:39

and he stops me and slams

1:00:41

the door shut And he said, if you take one

1:00:43

step out of the store, I'm gonna go over and I'm gonna kill

1:00:45

that b word Athena, and then I'm

1:00:47

gonna go kill the mistress. And

1:00:50

I don't think I was really thinking appropriately.

1:00:52

At that time, I just I raced out of there, got

1:00:54

my car, and was down the highway that

1:00:56

I fived down to Portland, and I texted

1:00:59

Athena as like he's lost his mind. He's absolutely

1:01:01

lost his mind. And then a few minutes later,

1:01:04

I get text from the mister saying, did you get

1:01:06

a call from the police? And I'm like, no.

1:01:08

Why? What's going on? And she said, he

1:01:11

was suicidal, and now they're on a hunt to

1:01:13

find him. And they have they're casing Ascena's

1:01:15

house. They're casing the mistress's

1:01:16

house, and they're worried for their

1:01:19

safety. S4 it was horrific.

1:01:21

When that

1:01:22

was happening, were you scared for your

1:01:24

life? Did you think you could turn on you?

1:01:26

Honestly, my brain I

1:01:28

couldn't even think I I wasn't it wasn't

1:01:31

sinking in. It it took me

1:01:33

a a few days actually

1:01:35

of got really sinking in that he could

1:01:37

have killed me and himself in that apartment

1:01:39

that night. And I kicked myself,

1:01:41

like, why didn't I call nine one? Like, why

1:01:43

didn't I do this? And so it it's

1:01:46

it's pretty devastating to, like, look back on your

1:01:48

actions going, I I should have you know,

1:01:50

because I would never have forgiven myself if

1:01:52

something would have happened to them and I I didn't

1:01:54

call. But it it was

1:01:56

starting to sink in at that moment when they got

1:01:58

him and put him in

1:01:59

jail, and then the court proceedings started happening,

1:02:02

and that's when it really was like,

1:02:04

this guy is so much worse than I ever

1:02:06

could have imagined. So when they

1:02:08

caught him and put him in

1:02:10

jail, that was for what?

1:02:12

Well, it's attempted murder. Well,

1:02:15

I don't know if it's it's considered

1:02:17

that because he's it wasn't I wish

1:02:19

she was dead. It was I am going to do this.

1:02:21

It was a threat of him. It was

1:02:23

like a death threat, essentially.

1:02:25

Yeah. And I had a restraining order at that

1:02:27

time. S4 if you even just voice

1:02:30

those words, then it's violation of

1:02:32

my protection

1:02:32

order, which is grounds to

1:02:34

be arrested. Yeah.

1:02:36

And in trapping me and his home was another charge.

1:02:38

S4 And the two of you were kinda

1:02:40

working together against him

1:02:42

at this point. Yes.

1:02:43

Yeah. Really to get my daughter safe

1:02:46

was the the main priority,

1:02:48

really? And just to safely separate

1:02:50

ourselves from

1:02:51

him. Howard Bauchner:

1:02:52

Amber, did you know when Athena

1:02:54

had filed the restraining order against him?

1:02:57

I was aware of that. That was in December when

1:02:59

I pulled the plug. I was aware of that.

1:03:01

But what's crazy is during the court

1:03:03

process, you know, now

1:03:05

it's my turn to be the awful evil most

1:03:08

recent ex wife. So I was

1:03:10

now the new Athena. And so the

1:03:12

new mistresses were all thinking I was the devil.

1:03:15

And, you know, we'd go sit there and

1:03:17

court with the prosecutor and they would say

1:03:19

I'm jealous and I'm just vengeful

1:03:22

because he left me for another woman, and it was,

1:03:24

you know, the whole Samir campaign started with

1:03:26

me. But in the very first court,

1:03:28

date. I remember me and Athena sitting there,

1:03:30

and the prosecutor said, did you

1:03:32

all know that they mister has

1:03:35

an upwards of six teen restraining orders

1:03:37

and harassment orders filed by various

1:03:39

women since nineteen ninety eight, and I about

1:03:42

died because I did a background search,

1:03:44

and none of that stuff came up. None.

1:03:46

And he has since gotten

1:03:47

more. Were you guys working

1:03:49

together

1:03:50

and going to these court dates? What was court

1:03:52

like for the both of you?

1:03:55

My gosh, I have never had

1:03:57

any cord experience my entire

1:03:59

life. I've never I've I'm just

1:04:01

a straight laced person, so

1:04:03

it was all a new

1:04:05

thing for me. And, you know, he tried

1:04:07

to file a retaliatory restraining order

1:04:10

on me, so I couldn't contact his

1:04:12

daughter. So, you know, I'm just

1:04:14

I didn't even know to say your honor. I'm

1:04:16

so ridiculous going in there. Like, I don't know

1:04:18

what I'm doing and thing is, like, yeah, I got

1:04:20

this. I've gone to court many times with this man

1:04:22

and I got this. S4 we were kind of a yeah.

1:04:25

It's a team, but it was scary. It

1:04:27

was scary because lawyers are

1:04:30

man. The defense lawyer for him they

1:04:32

will paint you out to be the worst uncredible

1:04:35

human being out there. So remember just

1:04:37

being embarrassed and horrified, and I just

1:04:39

wanted to scream like, this is not the

1:04:41

truth. This is absolutely false

1:04:44

and you are believing this

1:04:46

predatory man who's lying to everybody

1:04:48

and this court. So we had to just sit there and

1:04:50

take it we were sitting there and

1:04:53

our stalker comes and sits directly behind

1:04:56

us and we can just feel

1:04:58

his eyes burning in the back of our

1:05:00

head. And he's

1:05:03

just so pissed that I'm sitting

1:05:05

next to his wife. Oh, my

1:05:07

gosh, he hates me so much. So I

1:05:10

I knew there would be a response and

1:05:14

because I wasn't the one going before the

1:05:16

judge on that specific day, I

1:05:18

didn't feel as scared as I normally

1:05:20

did. For whatever reason, I had a little bit

1:05:22

of inner strength because Amber had

1:05:25

helped me with continuously

1:05:27

being contact for me while I tried to protect

1:05:30

my daughter and to get the protection

1:05:32

order, she wrote statements for

1:05:34

me. And so I wanted to do something for

1:05:36

her in return. So when

1:05:38

he tried to get it to where Amber couldn't see his

1:05:41

daughter, I showed

1:05:43

up there, sat next door, and

1:05:45

at one point said, excuse me, your honor,

1:05:47

may I speak, walked up there.

1:05:49

And he probably just about shit himself.

1:05:52

But I said, I just want you

1:05:54

to know that mister

1:05:57

has no authority and cannot state

1:05:59

whether or not miss Rasmussen is allowed

1:06:01

to see our child because

1:06:04

right now he's our training order against her,

1:06:06

which means I make all parental decisions.

1:06:09

And so this case just

1:06:11

has no relevance, no

1:06:13

I mean, No. It's not happening.

1:06:15

And so oh, man.

1:06:17

After that, they could tell the bailiffs were nervous

1:06:20

that he was in a taco, so they definitely walked

1:06:22

us out. Of that and that was

1:06:24

dismissed. Thankfully, Amber had that

1:06:26

case dismissed. And then moving

1:06:28

forward, our soccer would continue

1:06:30

to keep my car, front my life, send

1:06:32

me fake text messages still. He

1:06:35

hated me so much. He blamed me.

1:06:37

Now he's blaming me that his

1:06:40

wife and the other girlfriends broke up with

1:06:42

him. Like, it's my fault that he

1:06:44

put his wien and these other women. And

1:06:47

so Amber and I started becoming really

1:06:49

close because nobody could understand the bond

1:06:51

we had because our life passed

1:06:53

with him were very, very similar. The time frames

1:06:56

just the trauma. And so

1:06:59

she would come over and stay the night, and then we go

1:07:01

to court, we'd stay up late, having drinks

1:07:03

of laughing, and just telling

1:07:05

the craziest stories and being shocked every

1:07:08

moment of what the actual truth

1:07:10

was. But this day, this

1:07:12

morning, I'm driving, We're pulling

1:07:14

to the Buffalo Court and here comes

1:07:16

our stalker driving in the opposite direction.

1:07:19

I am so freaked out. I like swerve.

1:07:21

This I'd like to grab the screen while I swerve, we go up

1:07:23

on the curve. Amber and I are screaming. Finally,

1:07:26

Pondylo parking. Spots to all

1:07:29

put in

1:07:29

park. We try to compose ourselves. We go

1:07:31

in. We walk in, and he's right there,

1:07:33

and he sees us. And he doesn't want us to show

1:07:36

up at his court. For the entrapment

1:07:38

and stuff, and he comes for us,

1:07:40

he starts charging us, and we're backed

1:07:42

up against the window, like, oh my god. Oh my god.

1:07:44

And I'll send four or five

1:07:46

police officers, tackle him to the ground,

1:07:49

put him in cuffs, and he's just livid.

1:07:51

And we're just mouth on the ground. Like, what is happening?

1:07:54

This guy is nuts. Yes.

1:07:55

Because he's not allowed to speak to us because we had

1:07:58

a temporary no contact order of

1:08:00

domestic violence and CO against him at

1:08:02

that point. S4 he's not even

1:08:04

allowed to speak to us. And so this

1:08:06

man that Amber had recognized

1:08:08

and talked to, he was kind of monitoring the line,

1:08:10

the security line as he walked into the courtroom,

1:08:13

he saw his name tag and he goes, oh, hi. So so,

1:08:16

like, I'm going to spend talking to you and so we got

1:08:18

shit chatted and S4 he realized who

1:08:20

we were. We were the two women. I you

1:08:22

know, she's organized in Washington. And

1:08:25

and S4, I guess, we were, like, kind of, the hot commodity

1:08:27

in in the inner circle of the police department.

1:08:29

The courthouse, we come to find out. And so

1:08:32

so then when he sees our faces, when

1:08:34

this officer sees our faces and how we're

1:08:36

just frozen in fear, he just

1:08:38

grabs his little radio and calls

1:08:41

them in, and these police officers had

1:08:43

grung to hate him. I mean, in a later

1:08:45

court court proceedings, they would all like

1:08:47

say, okay, if he does anything, I'm gonna tackle

1:08:49

him this time. And the other one be like, no. I

1:08:52

I could take him down this time and because

1:08:54

they could just they just learned all

1:08:56

the horrific things he had done to Amber

1:08:58

myself, my child, and so many other women.

1:09:01

S4, yeah, there was many more

1:09:03

of those events where he

1:09:05

would try to scare me

1:09:07

from attending the child

1:09:10

custody hearings. At the exact same

1:09:12

time, I was dealing with the domestic

1:09:14

violence. I was also dealing

1:09:16

with the family law stuff. And

1:09:19

he came at me in the hallway when he thought nobody

1:09:21

would know and I

1:09:23

just had a breakdown. He escaped the

1:09:26

courthouse in King County. The police

1:09:28

couldn't find him and got away that time too.

1:09:30

He also

1:09:32

evaded the police when they were gonna arrest him

1:09:34

at the Buffalo courthouse to where

1:09:36

they had to put my daughter's school lock down

1:09:38

and I had to go get her and hide.

1:09:41

Until they found him. So this

1:09:43

went on and on and on.

1:09:50

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1:10:23

He gave me a book on

1:10:25

art forgery. I

1:10:28

found myself drawn to these

1:10:31

old masters. How did

1:10:33

these artists take paint

1:10:35

from a pallet, arrange it

1:10:37

on a canvas, I began

1:10:40

to unlock the secrets.

1:10:43

I was a storehouse of knowledge

1:10:45

of how to create an

1:10:48

illusion, present it

1:10:50

to a experienced expert,

1:10:54

manipulate his mind, and

1:10:56

convince him and bring him to

1:10:59

the inevitable conclusion that

1:11:01

the painting is genuine. We

1:11:04

flooded the market with my paintings,

1:11:08

and I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't

1:11:10

believe it. Then the dominoes started

1:11:12

falling and eventually the I

1:11:15

will let to my door. They

1:11:17

uncovered a mountain

1:11:19

of evidence against

1:11:21

me. But they never actually got

1:11:23

you. At this point, you

1:11:25

sold a lot. You've got like a million dollars

1:11:27

in cash. You sold one painting for

1:11:29

seven hundred and seventeen thousand Why

1:11:32

did it go away? Why did you never get

1:11:34

indicted? And how are we having this conversation?

1:11:39

I guess that's the greatest story of all.

1:11:42

To hear how Ken Perini made millions in

1:11:44

art forgery, dodged the mafia

1:11:46

and the FBI, subscribed to the Jordan

1:11:48

harbinger show and check out episode two

1:11:50

eighty

1:11:51

two, in Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

1:11:53

or wherever you're listening now.

1:12:00

Where does your court case with him stand

1:12:02

right now? So the

1:12:04

incident I was talking about earlier, the entrapment

1:12:06

in that whole incident, it was wrapped up in

1:12:08

twenty nineteen and myself

1:12:11

and Athena both got five year no contact

1:12:13

orders

1:12:14

thinking that that piece of paper is gonna protect us.

1:12:16

So he he

1:12:17

was still terrorizing. Like she said, he would key

1:12:19

cars. I fortunately had

1:12:22

a state in between. So and he

1:12:24

also knew I had a a police officer

1:12:26

brother-in-law. So he didn't

1:12:28

stalk me as much as the women,

1:12:30

the the girlfriends that were left in Washington and

1:12:32

Athena. It was during this time.

1:12:34

He would just get away with everything. Right? Like,

1:12:36

he would do all the vandalization, and

1:12:38

we'd catch him on, like, security cameras, and you couldn't

1:12:41

see his face well enough. So it wasn't prost

1:12:43

cutable. And he'd let

1:12:45

various girlfriends let their animals

1:12:47

out. He put one on the slut shaming website,

1:12:49

but she couldn't prove it because it was a, you know,

1:12:51

at out of jurisdiction. So it was

1:12:54

like the dirty where it was like a different country

1:12:56

or something. But we started

1:12:59

kind of having this little network of

1:13:01

women and more and more women were coming out of

1:13:03

the woodwork and more and more information.

1:13:05

So we just kinda had this huge

1:13:08

elaborate intricate story happening,

1:13:10

and we would all share our stories and

1:13:12

we'd all help each other because other women had

1:13:14

to get protective. Orders as well. And

1:13:16

so we would write, you know, on

1:13:18

their behalf, and they would give us their information,

1:13:21

their text messages, and all their proof because

1:13:23

it took so much to

1:13:25

to stop him, but nothing really stopped

1:13:27

him. He would get a slap on the hand. And

1:13:29

they'd tell us, oh, you know, if he violates

1:13:31

that training order. He's going to jail right

1:13:33

off the bat and we'd call repeatedly and

1:13:36

nothing would

1:13:36

happen. Absolutely nothing until

1:13:39

recently. S4 in two thousand and twenty,

1:13:42

my sister was shot

1:13:44

murdered by her husband of six months.

1:13:46

She's only one year older than me. And

1:13:50

it was it was

1:13:52

horrifying and the

1:13:54

artist's thing obviously I've

1:13:56

ever been through. And at

1:13:58

that point, Amber and I

1:14:00

had talked about writing a book or

1:14:04

sharing her story in the podcast platform

1:14:06

possibly, but we hadn't

1:14:08

put it into action so much. And,

1:14:11

you know, we were scared too because he was retaliating

1:14:14

all the time. And we were always in

1:14:16

fear. Like, I live very close to him.

1:14:19

So I knew he would come after me, so it was scary.

1:14:21

And so Ember reached out to me and

1:14:23

just said, I really think it's time to

1:14:25

share a story. And we both

1:14:27

decided that the risk of our safety was

1:14:29

worth telling the story to help protect other people

1:14:31

in order for my sister. And so

1:14:34

that's what we did and we launched the

1:14:36

podcast. We started working really hard on

1:14:38

it. She was murdered in

1:14:40

May of twenty twenty. We started

1:14:42

really hard picked that summer and

1:14:44

launched that following October. And

1:14:48

Once that happened, that was a whole new whirlwind

1:14:50

of stalking because soon enough,

1:14:52

our stalker found out and did

1:14:54

everything that's power. To

1:14:57

shut us

1:14:58

down. And we did use a fake name

1:15:00

too because we were scared. And we

1:15:02

consulted as much as we cut on first amendment

1:15:04

rights and everything. But even with that, he had

1:15:06

been embezzling hundreds of thousands of

1:15:08

dollars, and we knew he had money

1:15:10

to sue. So even if you are

1:15:13

crossing your t's and dotting your eyes, you

1:15:15

still could get pulled into court, and it could be

1:15:17

a very expensive litigation.

1:15:20

And so we were scared. And so we did use

1:15:22

a fake name

1:15:23

initially. But then he caught wind.

1:15:25

Tell me little bit more

1:15:26

about what you guys are doing on ex wife's

1:15:28

undercover. S4, initially,

1:15:30

yes, it was our story. It is two

1:15:33

seasons. It's a it's a lot. She was within

1:15:35

five years. I was within five years, so we

1:15:37

do go into the weeds and all the juicy

1:15:39

details of how the dynamics

1:15:42

and how it all came to be. About

1:15:45

halfway through our first season,

1:15:47

it was gaining traction so much. And then, of

1:15:49

course, everyone wants to know who it is. And

1:15:52

we saw a woman that

1:15:54

joined our private Facebook group and

1:15:56

we're like, well, who's she? Like, you know, and

1:15:59

it turned out to be a woman he was dating

1:16:01

in California. So enough

1:16:04

people in Seattle area knew who

1:16:06

that podcast person was.

1:16:08

And so he he kind of spread his wings.

1:16:10

So he started going to another state. So when we learned

1:16:13

about this woman, that's when

1:16:15

we felt like, okay. Well, Are

1:16:17

we doing a disservice to women? Yes,

1:16:19

we are telling our story. We can talk about the

1:16:21

red flags and everything we've learned, but he's

1:16:23

still loose and no one knows his name.

1:16:25

And so what I hit the crit we are

1:16:28

for not protecting someone. So we did

1:16:30

out him and use his real name and she

1:16:32

learned about us. S4 we were put

1:16:35

in contact with her, but she still stayed

1:16:38

for about a year. So

1:16:40

we try to keep the communication lines

1:16:42

open with her, he's so good and only

1:16:45

we know. We know exactly where it is. When I stayed

1:16:47

five, she stayed five, and it's a very

1:16:49

sick and toxic abuse and he comes across

1:16:51

as this very caring, wonderful

1:16:54

human being, and he's still good at his lies that you

1:16:56

believe him. So we just kept the lines

1:16:58

open, but towards the end of

1:17:00

gosh, when was it Athena twenty twenty one?

1:17:02

Mhmm. Yeah. She said, you

1:17:04

know, he's showing up everywhere

1:17:06

that I am. I'm trying to break up with him and

1:17:09

we're like, girl, you got a tracker on your car.

1:17:11

You got by where and so we started coaching

1:17:13

her, and she was taking our

1:17:15

advice. And gosh,

1:17:17

March of twenty twenty two, she

1:17:19

finally had enough. We we talked during getting

1:17:21

a restraining order in California, and

1:17:24

he attacked her that night. And

1:17:26

he was going to harm her You

1:17:29

can look him up online. It's it's bad. He's

1:17:31

still going through litigation as we speak,

1:17:33

but if it wasn't for us helping

1:17:35

her, she very well might not be alive

1:17:37

today. And so right now, we're

1:17:39

kinda waiting on his sentencing. But with the

1:17:42

podcast, we just started getting such

1:17:44

good feedback. We just started telling other women's

1:17:46

stories. So that's kinda where we're at now is

1:17:48

kinda going beyond our story and and

1:17:50

hoping to change laws in the

1:17:52

future, change, you know, because,

1:17:54

honestly, The reason he's in California

1:17:57

jail is because California has much,

1:17:59

much stricter laws about stalking

1:18:01

and harassing than Washington or

1:18:03

Oregon where we live S4 he got to skate

1:18:05

by for a long

1:18:06

time, but he really messed up when he chose California

1:18:09

to go to. When our listeners, no

1:18:11

doubt, we'll tune into ExWives under

1:18:13

cover and and

1:18:14

binge, where can they find your podcast?

1:18:17

Oh, gosh. We're on pretty much every streaming

1:18:19

platform. So Apple Spotify,

1:18:22

iHeartRadio, Amazon Music,

1:18:24

Google. If anyone out there wants

1:18:27

to get a hold of you or talk about

1:18:29

their story, or just, you know,

1:18:31

need some help or

1:18:32

something. How did they find you? I

1:18:34

would say the easiest way is just to go to

1:18:36

x y's undercover dot com. There's a contact

1:18:38

form there. We're on social

1:18:40

media. You can always contact us there as well, but

1:18:42

that's probably the two easiest ways.

1:18:44

Do you feel that your podcast and what you're

1:18:46

doing shatters misconceptions about

1:18:49

how ex wives can get

1:18:51

along and basically unite together

1:18:53

for a great cause.

1:18:55

Absolutely. That's probably one of the most important

1:18:57

things. You'll hear us reference

1:19:00

our fans as ex fans because we wanna

1:19:02

create a sisterhood. Where we band

1:19:04

together. And in my experience, I've

1:19:06

seen men do that more often than women,

1:19:08

and it's frustrating because

1:19:11

like Amber had said, if we just communicate,

1:19:13

have each other's back, like, what's

1:19:16

that's gonna be your best outcome. And

1:19:18

so I do want that

1:19:20

message to really come across very

1:19:22

clear because I did

1:19:25

know my ex before the, you know,

1:19:27

the Stalker. His wife

1:19:29

and I gone along great. You

1:19:31

know? And there's no crossover with

1:19:34

why one another wasn't with each other.

1:19:36

We gone along so great that I got

1:19:38

to experience how healthy that was and

1:19:40

how wonderful that was for children.

1:19:43

And so that's how it should be. And

1:19:45

so I guess the big message is

1:19:47

you know, if the person you're with is

1:19:49

bad nothing and trashing their x,

1:19:52

red flag, and to keep

1:19:54

the lines of communication open and

1:19:57

talk to that other person, that others, the

1:19:59

new spouse, the ex spouse, do it for the

1:20:01

children, do it for yourself.

1:20:02

Amber, what do you think? Yeah. I mean, I think that's

1:20:04

kind of the magic of our show too is everyone

1:20:07

loves the friendship. I mean, I consider

1:20:09

her one of my best friends now, and we

1:20:11

realized that we're so much more like

1:20:13

than we ever knew. And if people would just think

1:20:16

about that, that it's another human being on

1:20:18

that side, and we we tend to pit one another

1:20:20

against you

1:20:21

know, especially as women, sometimes it's the ExWives

1:20:23

always the bad one and and he's such a victim

1:20:25

and always think that there's two sides of a story

1:20:27

in any relationship. We

1:20:30

know in the podcast you guys give

1:20:32

out a lot of advice and information and you've

1:20:34

learned a lot about this. What

1:20:36

advice can you kind of leave our listeners with

1:20:38

about you know, what you've gone through

1:20:40

either, how you've gotten through it or

1:20:42

anything that they can do to kinda

1:20:44

get to this point where you're at. If

1:20:47

you feel like you're in similar situation, you're

1:20:51

seeing red flags, you've got this gut

1:20:53

instinct that something doesn't feel right?

1:20:55

Well, listen to it. Your senses

1:20:58

are your best friend. So even if you

1:21:00

don't want to maybe dig in just a little bit,

1:21:02

you can do it on your own privately. You don't have

1:21:04

to out and share it with the world so you look like

1:21:06

a crazy person later if it doesn't come

1:21:08

to fruition. But, you know, why not?

1:21:10

Check up on that person. And the other thing is

1:21:13

if you are being stocked, then

1:21:15

it's very, very important to create safety

1:21:18

plan. So with my

1:21:20

daughter, when she would be with her father,

1:21:22

if she was in trouble, she would text me capital

1:21:24

letters, she would delete it quickly,

1:21:27

and then she would text in lowercase whatever

1:21:30

she felt state that her father could see. Even

1:21:33

something like that. We had a listener reach out

1:21:35

to us who also said, thank

1:21:37

you so much for everything you've shared about

1:21:39

safety plans because I

1:21:41

reached out to my best friend

1:21:43

three days ago. I told her about

1:21:46

it. And I told her

1:21:48

if anything goes down, I want you to text

1:21:50

me this word. Just that word. We don't

1:21:52

have to talk about it ever again. Delete this.

1:21:54

Three days later, her friend texts her

1:21:56

the word. She said, I'll send the police

1:21:58

to your house. They do. He completely

1:22:01

just battered this woman almost killed her.

1:22:04

But because she was able to have that safety

1:22:06

plan with her girlfriend, they got there in

1:22:08

time to save her life. And

1:22:10

S4, yeah, create a safety plan if it's not

1:22:12

a word or a way of messaging or

1:22:16

just change up your patterns how

1:22:18

you how you get home, where

1:22:20

you go, where you park, let people always

1:22:22

know where you're going, turn on your tracking, on

1:22:25

your cell phone. I mean, shoot, our cell phone's

1:22:27

left to track us. S4 you might

1:22:29

already be being tracked up knowing it,

1:22:31

but I know you could physically turn on the settings.

1:22:34

Just, yeah, sharing that kind of information

1:22:36

if you

1:22:37

travel, Same thing. Make sure

1:22:39

people know where you're going. We're gonna be staying at least

1:22:41

one person. And I will add to that

1:22:43

and that it's so important

1:22:45

to have documentation of everything.

1:22:48

I'm talking everything. I started

1:22:50

scanning documents, the fake documents that

1:22:53

he gave to me. And I save them.

1:22:55

And it's also important not just to save them on

1:22:57

your phone because we know that these types of guys

1:22:59

use spyware. So save all of your

1:23:01

information on a hard drive somewhere that's protected,

1:23:03

give it to family member, to store, and they're safe,

1:23:06

to box or something, and

1:23:08

save it for years, because you never know. When

1:23:10

you're gonna need something down

1:23:12

the road if you're having parent

1:23:14

issue parenting issues or something like

1:23:16

that. So documentation's really,

1:23:18

really important I think also

1:23:20

something I've learned is it's

1:23:23

not easy to look up people

1:23:25

online. The court systems are all separate.

1:23:28

Every state and every county has a different system

1:23:30

and some are easier to navigate than others.

1:23:33

And as just regular

1:23:35

civilians, we don't know what we're privy to. You

1:23:37

can do an information request. That

1:23:39

is public information. If it's in the course

1:23:41

systems, it's public information. So we

1:23:43

actually had detective on.

1:23:46

And she said, don't go to people search

1:23:48

whatever and do those forty dollar background

1:23:50

searches because they're not thorough. She said, go to

1:23:52

your state police. Ask for

1:23:54

a criminal number check, and also have

1:23:56

them run an FBI check, which will be

1:23:59

national, and then take they'll

1:24:01

give you a list of every case number for that person.

1:24:03

You're granted, you're gonna need to know their birthday and

1:24:05

their first and last name and everything. So

1:24:07

once you get that case number list, then

1:24:10

you go to the case where all those events are

1:24:12

happening, and then you do a public information request,

1:24:15

and they have to give you the details. And then

1:24:17

lastly, I think our pride

1:24:20

plays a part in staying with these guys

1:24:22

for so long. I didn't wanna be

1:24:24

publicly humiliated. I had blasted to

1:24:26

everyone. I was engage, and I wanted everyone to

1:24:28

think I was in this great relationship. So sometimes,

1:24:31

you gotta think inward to

1:24:33

your yourself. Is it gonna be the end of the

1:24:35

world someone knows that you made a mistake? No.

1:24:37

It's not. It's better to get out than stay

1:24:39

five years or ten years or whatever it is and be

1:24:41

in a unsafe place. Really

1:24:43

have that network of family and friends that

1:24:45

are there for you. Like, my parents never

1:24:48

made me feel bad for staying and not everyone

1:24:50

is as lucky as I am. So I know it can be

1:24:52

ice slating, but keep your tribe

1:24:54

close and don't let your pride and

1:24:56

ego get in a

1:24:57

way. You know, if it's time to end things,

1:24:59

end it, keep yourself safe.

1:25:02

Based on the work that you're doing, what's

1:25:04

next for you? Gosh. We are optioned

1:25:06

for a docu series. And

1:25:10

with that, we really see a spin

1:25:12

off with our X Files, which

1:25:15

is the podcast where we share other women's

1:25:17

stories. And in recent

1:25:19

season. We didn't

1:25:21

realize it was actually she was in a current

1:25:24

situation, so we had to guide her

1:25:26

and help her escape from

1:25:28

this physically abusive man

1:25:30

and be a we're a support system. She's

1:25:33

amazing and you know,

1:25:35

he ends up beating her up halfway through filming

1:25:37

the season. And we

1:25:39

kind of went on a journey with her and she

1:25:42

tells us we saved her life and it you

1:25:44

know, we spoke with their family. It's I

1:25:46

would love for us to do more of that too

1:25:49

and help in that way if we're gonna

1:25:51

continue to do that obviously with the podcast with

1:25:53

x files. And then with after the DocuSears,

1:25:55

I'm hoping we do more of a

1:25:58

docu

1:25:59

reality type

1:26:02

show like that. Yeah. And something

1:26:04

that's just important in time

1:26:06

permitting, we would really like to get more involved

1:26:09

in changing

1:26:09

laws, stocking laws, DV,

1:26:12

domestic violence related laws?

1:26:15

Athena and Amber, thank you so much for the work

1:26:17

you're doing and for joining us today.

1:26:19

Thank you for having us. Thank you

1:26:21

guys. If anyone out there is in need of help

1:26:23

or is a victim of stalking, please reach

1:26:25

out. You can find a list of resources on

1:26:27

our in gram at strictly stocking pod.

1:26:29

If you'd like to share your story with us on strictly

1:26:31

stocking, you can reach us at strictly stocking

1:26:34

pod at gmail dot

1:26:35

com. That's strictly stocking P0D

1:26:37

at gmail dot com. As a listener of trickles

1:26:39

talking, please leave us review and rate us

1:26:41

five stars on Apple podcasts, Spotify,

1:26:43

Amazon

1:26:43

Music, or wherever you listen.

1:26:45

I'm Jane Diptula. And I'm Jamie Bibby. Thank

1:26:47

you for joining us on today's episode of Strictly

1:26:49

Stalking.