0:01

And when I tried to shut the door on him,

0:03

he pushed it open and tried

0:05

to shove his way in. And

0:07

so I end up screaming really

0:09

loudly, Help, help. And no one

0:12

came out to help. I'm

0:14

pretty sure there were people in their apartments, But

0:17

no one, I guess, wanted to get involved.

0:35

I'm Jamie Bebe. And I'm Jake Daptula. On

0:37

today's episode of Strictly Stalking, we're speaking with

0:39

Renee, who met her stalker during college. They

0:42

were acquaintances, and she had mentioned to him that the apartment

0:44

across from hers was vacant. He moved in immediately

0:46

and she often found him staring at her intensely.

0:49

When Renee started seeing someone, her

0:51

stalker became angry and told her the guy was using

0:53

her and also seeing other people. Things

0:55

escalated when he changed his class schedule

0:57

to match hers, knocked on her door constantly,

1:00

yelled outside her door when he knew she was home,

1:02

and followed her when she left her apartment.

1:04

One night Renee called campus security

1:06

when he wouldn't leave her alone, but they said they

1:08

couldn't do anything because she didn't have a restraining

1:10

order. Renee, thank you for joining us today.

1:13

Thank

1:13

you for having me. What was life

1:15

like for you growing up? I spent the first part

1:17

of my life in central Texas, then

1:20

moved to North Carolina when I was 12. And

1:22

I've been here ever since. I spent a lot

1:24

of time outside, which is kind of funny

1:27

because I'm sort of an indoor type hermit

1:29

now. But my grandparents who helped

1:31

raise me in my early years have all these

1:34

pictures of me like running

1:36

around in the garden with my grandfather and jumping

1:38

into mud puddles and

1:41

playing with the farm animals. They had

1:43

a pony, they had some pigs,

1:46

they had dogs. Just a lot

1:48

of time outside, there

1:50

were tarantulas and scorpions

1:53

running around, but it was fun.

1:56

What was the transition from high school

1:58

college like for you. Well,

2:01

growing up, I had kind of a chaotic

2:03

life. My parents

2:06

moved around a lot. My mom

2:08

married my stepfather when I was about four,

2:10

and he just didn't like to stay

2:13

in one place for very long. And I was an only

2:15

child, so I guess they thought, oh, we've

2:17

just got one kid, so we'll take her from

2:19

town to town. He

2:21

was always changing jobs. He

2:24

at one point was a long haul truck driver.

2:26

He also worked in manufacturing plants.

2:30

He just did not like to be in one

2:32

place at one time and he was constantly changing

2:35

jobs, getting upset with somebody that

2:37

he worked with. And the next thing I knew we'd be packing

2:39

up and moving again.

2:40

So I was pretty tired

2:43

by the time I went to college of all

2:45

the moving and the packing and constantly

2:47

having to explain to people, oh yeah, my parents moved

2:49

again.

2:50

When I got into high school, they sort

2:53

of stayed in the same area so that at least

2:55

I could stay in the same school system.

2:57

But there were a couple of times where we moved out of

2:59

the county and I had to commute back and forth

3:02

into school. My first

3:04

year of college, I actually lived at

3:06

home to save money, so I commuted. It was

3:08

only about maybe a 20-minute

3:10

drive from my parents' house to college.

3:13

That's kind of where we were at that point. Were

3:16

you a pretty social person in

3:18

high school and college? I was. I

3:21

joke all the time that I was way more social than

3:23

I am now. And I think a lot

3:25

of it was because it was sort of out

3:27

of necessity. We didn't have cell phones

3:30

back then. We didn't have ways to get in touch with

3:32

people. And I was an only child, so I didn't

3:34

have any siblings to hang out with.

3:36

If I wanted to do something, I would have

3:38

to go drive around and find where my friends were,

3:42

or go over to somebody's house and say, hey, what

3:44

are people doing now? I don't

3:46

do that that much anymore.

3:49

At what point did you move out of your

3:51

parents house and out on your own in

3:53

college? It was after my freshman

3:55

year. I moved into an apartment

3:58

that was off campus, but it really was only.

4:00

like a five minute walk to campus. I

4:02

had met a girl the my

4:04

freshman year and she was a little bit older than me.

4:06

She was a couple years older than me. She had been a transfer

4:08

student. And she mentioned she

4:10

had found an apartment and she was looking for a roommate.

4:13

And I was looking to get out of my parents house

4:15

at that point. So I said, Okay, the

4:17

rent was reasonable. My parents were willing to help

4:19

me out. And it was so close to campus,

4:21

I wouldn't be having to drive back and forth anymore. So that's

4:23

when I moved.

4:25

What was your friend group like those

4:27

first couple years in college?

4:29

I mostly hung out with people

4:31

that I met in my major because all

4:33

of our classes were really small and

4:35

then once I moved into that apartment,

4:38

my friend group mostly consisted of

4:40

the people that lived in my building.

4:42

And what was life like right before

4:44

you met your stalker?

4:46

It was pretty busy. I

4:48

had taken a job at a restaurant

4:51

that was just down the street, but I

4:53

worked a lot of late nights.

4:56

I did a lot of bookkeeping

4:59

for the restaurant. So at the end of the night, I would

5:01

have to take everybody's money

5:04

and cash everybody out and

5:06

sort of put together the deposit for

5:08

the bank, which if you think about it, was a really big

5:10

responsibility for somebody that was like 18 years

5:13

old. But

5:15

I had done that at my previous job too. So I

5:17

was working a lot because I had some credit

5:19

card bills I was trying to pay off. And

5:22

then I was taking a full course load. And

5:24

then I think that was also the year I started

5:26

working at the campus newspaper.

5:28

So I worked as a staff

5:31

writer and then a couple of years into

5:34

my college career, I worked as section editor

5:36

for a couple of different departments. And that also

5:38

paid a little bit of money too.

5:40

Tell us about meeting your soccer. How

5:42

did you meet him? What was your first impression

5:45

of him? What did you know about

5:47

him?

5:48

I met him during my sophomore year of college

5:51

when he was in several of my classes. were

5:54

only about maybe 20 to 25 students

5:56

in the regular classes

5:59

at my university. It was a small liberal arts

6:01

college. The only classes that

6:03

were really big were the ones that had maybe a science

6:05

or a math lab attached to them. So

6:07

I just remember meeting

6:09

him and talking to him in a group, I think.

6:12

We, like I said, I was very social

6:15

back then. So I really didn't have any problems

6:17

talking to anybody. I thought he

6:20

was

6:20

kind of quiet, but he also

6:23

was funny, a little bit nerdy,

6:25

but a lot of people that were

6:28

at my school were kind

6:30

of like that, you know, into Star Wars and

6:32

all the fantasy movies. I

6:35

took a science fiction film genres

6:37

class and he and a bunch

6:39

of other, I think I was one of the only girls in that class.

6:42

I didn't realize when I signed up for it that it was going to be a science

6:44

fiction genre, but he was

6:46

really nice and loaned me all his video

6:50

cassette tapes of the movies that we had to

6:52

watch. So

6:53

I enjoyed talking to him. And when

6:56

he mentioned

6:59

that he was looking for an apartment, I didn't

7:02

think there was anything wrong with telling him that I knew

7:05

one that was vacant. How long had

7:07

you known him at this point? It must

7:09

have only been a couple of months at that point. I really

7:11

have a hard time remembering, but But

7:14

it must have been pretty close to the beginning of the semester.

7:17

So it was only a couple of months.

7:19

Did you see any red flags or were you

7:21

attracted to him, interested in him?

7:24

What were your thoughts about him?

7:25

I was not interested in him romantically.

7:27

He was not really the kind

7:30

of guy I would have dated normally back

7:32

then. But I

7:34

did not really see any red

7:36

flags because I knew

7:39

several guys that were kind of like him and my

7:41

major and

7:43

none of them they were all

7:45

harmless. We talked in class. Occasionally

7:48

we talk outside of class about

7:50

homework or assignments

7:53

but there

7:54

was never really anything

7:56

that

7:57

got my guard up. What

8:00

did some of your other friends think

8:02

of him? They all kind of felt the

8:05

same way I did, I believe. Most

8:07

of my really close friends from high school went

8:11

to other colleges, so I would only see them on

8:13

the weekends. And I remember one time a

8:15

couple of them met him because he came over,

8:17

I

8:18

believe, to our apartment. And I

8:21

don't remember them ever really saying anything, saying

8:23

anything about him other than, oh, that's that guy that lives across

8:25

the hall.

8:26

Did you think at the time that

8:29

he had any romantic interest in you

8:31

or did you just feel that he

8:33

was giving you any sort of I'm attracted

8:36

to you vibes?

8:37

I mean, I'd be lying if I said I didn't

8:39

see that. I do think

8:41

that he would often look

8:43

at me in class.

8:45

He had these really kind of like intense

8:48

blue eyes that were very

8:51

laser focused. So occasionally I

8:53

would see him looking at me and he

8:56

went out of his way to be friendly to me. So

8:59

I did think that he might be interested in me romantically,

9:02

but I didn't really know

9:03

how to deal with it. Did you know

9:06

if he was dating anyone else

9:08

or anything about his personal life

9:10

on that level? I knew that he

9:12

came from a small town

9:15

near the coast of North Carolina and

9:17

I believe he was an only child like

9:20

me. He never talked about having

9:22

a girlfriend. I never saw him hanging out with

9:24

any other girls. So I

9:27

never really saw him that way. I

9:29

didn't think that he was dating anyone at school

9:31

either.

9:32

After he moved in, how did things start

9:35

to change between you two?

9:37

He was just always around.

9:39

I felt like I couldn't get any privacy

9:41

in my apartment because he was always knocking

9:43

on the door and coming in. And it

9:46

wasn't just a, I'm gonna come in and have

9:49

a soda and chat. he would stay

9:51

for hours

9:53

and plop himself on the couch and

9:56

make things really awkward because

9:58

I I would be trying to go somewhere.

10:00

And I would say, well, I have to go

10:02

now. And he'd say, oh, yeah. But

10:05

then he wouldn't make any move to leave. And

10:07

I remember a couple of times my roommate and I having to

10:10

very bluntly say, well, we're both

10:12

leaving. So you're going to have to go back across

10:15

the hall.

10:15

Was this something that was normal?

10:18

You said you were friends with a lot of people in the building

10:20

and we kind of know how college is. Was

10:22

it more of like a dormitory type of building

10:25

where people came and went with each other and

10:27

hung out a lot?

10:28

Yes, it was. It was, I mean,

10:30

at least three or four of the apartments

10:33

just in my one unit were students. So most

10:35

of us were students and we did hang out

10:37

with

10:38

the two guys that live downstairs. We hung

10:40

out with them a lot and the

10:43

stalker's roommate was, I think he might've been

10:45

on the baseball team.

10:47

He was really good friends with those two guys downstairs.

10:50

So by default, the stalker would always

10:52

end up hanging out with all of

10:54

us as a group too, which made

10:56

things awkward. When I first

10:59

met him, I could talk to him really easily.

11:02

I remember one time I really liked Tori

11:04

Amos

11:06

and he bought me a bunch

11:08

of her bootleg CDs as a gift

11:12

and gave them to me. I think it was for my

11:14

birthday. I felt so

11:16

guilty because I felt like I didn't do

11:19

anything to deserve those.

11:23

I didn't know how to respond to getting that type

11:25

of gift from somebody I wasn't romantically

11:27

involved with and who wasn't like a really,

11:30

really good friend. It made me think, oh, he

11:32

must, he thinks we're better

11:34

friends than we really are, I think.

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12:53

He gave me a book on

12:56

art forgery. I found

12:59

myself drawn to these old

13:01

masters. How did these

13:04

artists take paint from a

13:06

palette, arrange it on

13:08

a canvas? I began

13:10

to unlock the secrets.

13:13

I was a storehouse of knowledge

13:16

of how to create an

13:18

illusion, present it

13:21

to a experienced

13:23

expert, manipulate

13:25

his mind and convince

13:28

him and bring him to the inevitable

13:31

conclusion that the painting is

13:33

genuine. We flooded

13:35

the market with my paintings and

13:38

I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it.

13:41

Then the dominoes started falling and

13:43

eventually the FBI were led to my

13:46

door. They uncovered

13:49

a mountain of evidence against

13:51

me. they never actually got

13:54

you.

13:55

for $717,000.

14:03

Why did it go away? Why did you never get

14:05

indicted? How are we having this conversation?

14:09

I guess that's the greatest story of all. To

14:12

hear how Ken Perreni made millions in art

14:14

forgery, dodged the mafia and

14:17

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14:19

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14:22

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you're listening now.

14:30

Was there a turning point where

14:32

you didn't want to hang out with him as much

14:35

and you started to pull back?

14:37

Yes, that was probably when I kind

14:40

of started flirting with one of the guys downstairs

14:43

and figured out he was interested

14:46

in me as well. But we

14:49

could never be alone

14:51

because the stalker always find a way

14:53

to

14:54

be around. So if we were

14:56

trying to hang out in somebody's

14:58

apartment, he would show

15:01

up and just kind of sit in the corner and

15:04

stare. I mean, it

15:06

wasn't that me and the guy were trying to be by ourselves,

15:08

but it would be a group setting. But there

15:10

was one incident where

15:12

we did want to be alone and

15:14

everybody else in the apartment sort of

15:16

took the hint and they were going to leave

15:19

and the stalker would not leave.

15:22

He sat in

15:24

the corner blaring at me. He

15:26

had his arms crossed.

15:28

They said to him, come on, we're going to go. They

15:30

were going to like an all night diner or something. We're

15:33

going to go get some food. You need to let's, you

15:35

know, let's get you out of here. And he was like,

15:37

no, no, I'm staying. And

15:39

I don't remember how that ended. I don't know if,

15:41

if I finally had to leave or, or

15:44

what, but it was, it was really late

15:46

at night and and it was a very uncomfortable situation

15:50

that anybody else would have picked up on, oh, I should

15:52

probably go home, but he didn't.

15:54

Did

15:55

you guys talk about that situation at

15:57

all with you and your other friends.

16:00

I think they kind of felt the way I

16:02

did that, oh, he's kind of awkward

16:04

and that's just the way he is. And

16:06

I just don't think they took it seriously.

16:09

They didn't see it

16:11

as an issue necessarily. They

16:14

just kind of saw it as, oh, it's somebody that doesn't

16:16

really

16:17

sometimes doesn't understand when he needs to leave

16:19

or sometimes doesn't understand that he's been over here too

16:21

long. And I didn't really

16:23

want to go on and on and tell people how

16:26

uncomfortable I was because I didn't want to be seen

16:28

as being a drama queen or anything like that.

16:31

And once he saw that you were interested

16:33

in this other guy, how did

16:35

his actions start changing?

16:38

It's almost like he got really

16:40

possessive. I don't know what

16:43

he would have been possessive of, but he

16:45

just started following

16:47

me from class to class. And we were in most of

16:49

our classes together anyway, but he would follow me from

16:52

class to class. one time

16:54

he tried to stop me in the hallway

16:57

at my apartment and tell me that the guy that I

16:59

was kind of seeing, he was like, oh, he's just using

17:02

you and he's seeing all these other people

17:04

and I don't know what you're doing with him.

17:07

I think I said it's none of your business, frankly.

17:10

And that was all I said to him about it. And

17:13

I think that that was kind of a turning point because

17:15

I think that I probably should have said,

17:17

I'm not trying to be mean,

17:20

but I'm not interested in a relationship with

17:23

So you probably shouldn't involve

17:25

yourself in my relationships. But

17:27

of course, when you're that young, you don't

17:30

think logically of how you can

17:32

say something to somebody politely. Because

17:34

if I had just, I feel like if I had just said

17:36

something to him,

17:38

maybe it would have stopped everything from

17:40

happening. I don't know. We

17:42

know from experience that we can't

17:44

get inside of the mind of a stalker and

17:47

especially one that that in

17:49

the situation like this that thinks that maybe

17:51

there's something more there, anything

17:54

that you could have said may or may

17:56

not have made a difference.

17:58

this confrontation. Did

18:00

you talk to the other guy about it? Did you talk

18:02

to your friends about it? How did things start

18:04

changing? What other red flags were you noticing?

18:07

I don't think I said anything to anyone.

18:10

I might have said something to my roommate because she was

18:12

starting to notice, why is he knocking on the door

18:14

all the time? Why is he calling?

18:17

Why is he wanting all of a sudden to

18:20

be over here so

18:23

frequently? And, you know, I think

18:25

I said to her, I don't know. I think he

18:27

thinks that he wants me to date him, But

18:29

I I'm I'm

18:31

not really sure what's going on. So she was a little

18:33

bit frustrated because we really didn't have any

18:36

privacy with him

18:38

constantly being around and

18:40

I

18:42

Started getting really paranoid because

18:45

I would Come

18:47

home from work really late at night.

18:50

We're talking like midnight one o'clock in the morning

18:52

Now I'd be really tired and I would come up the

18:54

stairs and they were carpeted. We had carpeting

18:57

on the stairs I think I lived on the second

18:59

floor. And the second

19:01

I would get my key out to open

19:04

my apartment door, he would fling

19:06

his door open across the hall.

19:08

And we lived in the back of the building. So

19:10

it's not like he could look out the window and see me

19:12

pull into the parking lot. He had to be standing

19:15

on the other side of his door, looking

19:17

through the peephole.

19:18

Or he just knew what my schedule

19:20

was. That's probably more it. He probably knew, oh,

19:23

I saw her go to work around four o'clock, then she'll

19:25

probably home around 11

19:28

or 12. But I started

19:30

getting scared to even come home

19:32

from work because the last thing

19:34

you want to do that late at night when you're tired

19:37

is just

19:38

stand there and have an awkward conversation

19:40

with somebody in the hallway.

19:42

So that started to wear on me.

19:45

It got to where I would even, and this was

19:47

dangerous, but I would pull

19:49

into the parking lot and walk

19:52

around the back of the building and our building backed

19:54

up to some woods. I would walk around the back

19:56

of the building and sneak in the back door

19:58

and go up the back stairs.

20:00

of the apartment, thinking maybe

20:02

he won't, I don't know, hear me, but

20:04

he still would.

20:06

I became afraid to go do

20:08

my laundry because it was in another

20:10

building in the basement.

20:12

And there were many times that I would

20:14

go there to do my laundry and he would show up right

20:17

after I got there. Another

20:19

time I decided not to do laundry on

20:22

the complex because I didn't want to be trapped

20:25

in case he came in, and

20:27

he showed up at the gas station

20:29

laundromat I was at. So I guess he

20:31

followed me there. I'm not sure. Were

20:33

you feeling unsafe around him at this point?

20:36

I was. I don't know that I necessarily

20:39

thought he would do anything to me,

20:42

but I

20:43

was about five feet tall, 90 pounds

20:45

at that point. So I wasn't very big.

20:48

I was kind of vulnerable. I was

20:50

really anxious all the time.

20:52

And you just don't know. I just didn't feel

20:54

safe.

20:56

I didn't know necessarily that he would do anything, but

20:58

the last thing you want is for someone to confront

21:00

you in a dark parking lot

21:02

about why you won't talk to them, which

21:04

is basically another time I was

21:07

trying to go to the

21:09

campus newspaper,

21:11

which there was an office up there.

21:14

And I was heading to that building, and I

21:16

think it was in the evening, and he found

21:19

me on campus and started following me. And I was

21:21

like, man, I've got to go up there

21:24

to work. I hope

21:26

there's going to be somebody in the office. Because

21:29

it was at night, I had a key.

21:31

But I didn't know if anybody else would be in

21:34

there. And he was chasing me. And I was like, you

21:36

know what? I really just would like you to leave me alone.

21:39

I'm trying to go. I've got to

21:41

go do some work. I don't really want to talk right now.

21:43

And I remember him.

21:46

He could have followed me into the building, but he didn't.

21:48

And he walked around the side of the building and

21:51

stared at me through the glass door as I

21:53

was going up the stairs to

21:56

the office yelling stuff at me. Fortunately,

21:59

when I got... up there. And

22:01

the door had a lock on it. Fortunately, when I got

22:03

up there, there were some people that I worked with up

22:06

there. And I told them, I said, there's this guy. And

22:08

I think I told them who it was. And they were like, oh, yeah,

22:10

we know who he is. Because

22:12

he was in our department. And he was kind

22:14

of awkward when people knew that about him. So yeah,

22:17

I did feel unsafe. The last thing you want is somebody chasing

22:19

you around yelling at you. You

22:21

don't know what they're going to do.

22:23

Being so young, were you able to

22:26

kind of categorize what was happening at this

22:28

time with his stalking and erratic

22:31

behaviors?

22:32

No, not really. I mean,

22:34

I knew it made me fearful. I knew it

22:36

made me anxious. I don't really, I mean,

22:39

I guess I knew it was stalking at that point.

22:41

I'd seen enough Lifetime movies. So

22:45

I sort of knew what it was, but

22:47

I also didn't,

22:49

I didn't realize it could happen with someone

22:51

that you knew that you weren't romantically

22:53

involved with necessarily. That

22:55

was something I hadn't experienced before. How

22:58

did this start to escalate even more? It

23:01

escalated when I started

23:03

seeing that other guy in the other apartment,

23:07

which in the grand scheme of things, that only

23:09

lasted a couple of months. That kind of

23:11

fizzled out.

23:13

Things escalated when he just

23:16

kept getting angrier and angrier that I wouldn't

23:19

talk to him, that I didn't want to come

23:21

hang out in their apartment. Because I had done that

23:23

a couple of times when we first met.

23:26

roommate and I would go over there or I would take friends

23:28

over there. We liked his roommate too. He

23:30

was a really funny, nice guy. I can't

23:33

imagine what that guy went through. I

23:35

never talked to him about it, but

23:37

I imagine he probably was a little

23:40

awkward too because you're talking a college

23:42

athlete living with someone who's

23:44

sort of socially awkward and obsessed with

23:47

this girl that lives across the hall. He

23:49

just kept getting angrier and angrier that I wouldn't talk

23:51

to him. And like I said, I feel like

23:53

I should have said something so that

23:56

I could at least tell people, hey,

23:58

I told them to leave me alone. but all I did

24:00

was tell him to leave me alone. I never explained to

24:02

him,

24:04

hey, I'm not interested in you romantically

24:06

and you're making me uncomfortable, so I just don't wanna

24:08

talk to you period anymore. But

24:12

he acted like there was no

24:14

reason for me to be ignoring him. Like

24:16

it was like he didn't understand why I would

24:18

be upset with him.

24:21

So this one night, I believe

24:23

my roommate was gone,

24:25

I was alone in the apartment and

24:27

he started knocking on the door. And

24:29

he would say things like,

24:32

I know you're in there. I saw you come home.

24:36

I couldn't really pretend like

24:38

I wasn't home, but I would. I would be like,

24:40

you know what? If I don't want to answer the door, I don't have

24:42

to answer the door. But he just kept knocking

24:44

on the door, yelling things. And it started

24:47

to get embarrassing because I was like, man, other people can

24:49

probably hear him. So I kind

24:51

of cracked the door open and said,

24:55

you

24:55

need to get out of here. I don't want to talk to you.

24:58

And he started yelling things about the

25:00

guy downstairs

25:01

about how terrible he was and why was I

25:04

seeing him. Again, it was like a broken

25:06

record. And when I tried to shut

25:08

the door on him, he pushed

25:10

it open and tried to shove his way in.

25:14

And so I ended up screaming

25:16

really loudly, help, help,

25:18

and no one came out to help.

25:21

I'm pretty sure there were people in their apartments,

25:24

but

25:24

no one, I guess, wanted to get involved.

25:26

I don't know. So I screamed pretty loudly.

25:29

No one came to help.

25:31

I mean, he was definitely bigger than I was.

25:34

I managed to get the door slammed shut

25:36

and locked, but

25:38

I was scared. I didn't know

25:41

why he was trying to come in there, what he wanted to do.

25:44

So I called to campus security and

25:46

they got over there pretty quickly and

25:49

it was campus security. They

25:51

just kind of treated it like any other

25:54

incident on campus and said, well, we're

25:56

sorry, but he

25:59

didn't really do anything. And I said,

26:01

well, he tried to bust into my apartment

26:04

and I'm alone. And so I don't feel very safe.

26:08

And they said, well, you

26:10

could try to get a restraining order. You'd have to get up to the

26:12

police department. And I think they turned

26:14

and said to him, because he was standing there

26:17

looking very indignant with

26:19

his arms crossed the whole time, not

26:22

really denying anything. But

26:24

they turned to him and said, you're going to have to leave her alone. Just

26:27

leave her alone. And after

26:30

that, I was just in full

26:32

on terror mode because I felt

26:35

really unsafe. Didn't

26:39

know if he would follow me to work. He

26:42

knew where everywhere I went.

26:45

It wasn't a secret. Everybody

26:47

in that building knew where I worked, what

26:50

classes I had. He had rearranged

26:53

his schedule

26:54

in the spring semester. And

26:57

that

26:57

was when I knew things were really getting

27:00

kind of strange. But

27:02

I was in a class one day and it was,

27:04

it was one of those classes that's required to graduate.

27:07

So they offer multiple sections of it.

27:09

And I was in there and he was in there. I was like a great,

27:12

he was trying to talk to me and

27:14

the professor walked up and said to him, Oh,

27:16

did you not get enough of my class yesterday?

27:18

And he, the stalker like turned beat red.

27:21

And I think he realized

27:24

he was kind of caught at that point because I

27:26

realized, oh, he changed his schedule

27:29

and he was in every single class

27:31

with me that semester. So I couldn't

27:33

get away from him. How are you

27:35

supposed to get a restraining order on somebody

27:37

that is in every single one

27:39

of your classes when they haven't

27:42

done anything besides follow

27:44

you around and make you feel uncomfortable?

27:46

Did you reach out to campus security

27:49

again or anyone with the college

27:51

to tell them what was going on?

27:53

No, I never told anybody. I was

27:55

too embarrassed.

28:02

Hey listeners, it's Jamie, your favorite

28:05

Strictly Stalking host. Whoa, whoa,

28:07

whoa, hold on. I thought I was their favorite

28:09

host. Okay, yeah, Jake, you probably are the

28:11

favorite host, but I want to get our listeners

28:14

excited about something I've been working on in my spare

28:16

time. I've designed and launched

28:18

my own bikini company. Wow,

28:20

that's really cool. Thank you. If

28:22

you follow me on Instagram at feathergirl77,

28:25

you might know a little bit about me. But if not,

28:27

here's the short version. I'm 45 years

28:30

old, single, have a golden retriever named

28:32

Cabo who is the love of my life, and I

28:34

spend a lot of time traveling to tropical locations

28:37

and lounging around in bikinis.

28:38

Yeah, you know, that pretty much does sum up

28:40

your life outside of a strictly stocking.

28:42

So I took all my favorite parts of different

28:44

bikinis and designed one that's perfect

28:46

for every occasion. Then I went to

28:48

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28:50

materials, and now I'm launching the

28:52

boyfriend bikini.

28:53

I do like the part about the bikinis

28:56

being ethically produced, but why call it

28:58

the boyfriend bikini. Well, you know that

29:00

saying about how girls level up after horrible

29:02

relationship ends and travel more get

29:04

hotter and make more money start a new business fall

29:06

in love with someone way better. I have

29:08

definitely heard variations of that. So that's

29:10

exactly what I did when my last relationship

29:13

ended. I worked on myself found peace,

29:15

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29:18

I traveled solo around the world dated

29:20

lots of amazing and some not so

29:22

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29:24

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29:26

You know, I've really noticed your glow up in the

29:28

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29:30

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29:32

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29:35

named each bikini after a type of man I know,

29:37

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29:39

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29:41

That's really cool. So

29:43

which one is named after me? Haha, the

29:45

Mr. Nice guy is officially the Jake

29:47

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29:49

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29:54

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31:12

How soon after all of

31:14

this happened, did you

31:17

have to move out of your place?

31:19

Well, what happened was not long after

31:22

the campus security incident,

31:24

I had already I

31:25

had been struggling mentally. And

31:28

now that I look back on it,

31:30

I think that living through that

31:32

was probably the driving force

31:35

of my mental health issues. But

31:37

I also was dealing with a lot of stuff from

31:39

my childhood, a lot of stuff from all

31:41

the moving around I did not ever

31:44

feeling like I had a home, not feeling

31:47

safe in my home. I

31:49

was taking maybe 15,

31:52

16 hours that semester. It was a lot. And

31:55

working full-time

31:58

hours at the restaurant and work. working

32:00

at the campus newspaper and I just kind of

32:02

had a breakdown. And one night I

32:04

came home to my roommate and I said, I

32:06

don't want to live anymore. I

32:08

can't do this. I'm

32:11

so like I wasn't eating. I was

32:14

exhausted. I was sleeping all the time. I think

32:16

I was sleeping because I didn't want to, I didn't want

32:18

anybody to see me. I didn't want him to

32:21

see me. I just wanted to be left alone.

32:23

But I realized something

32:26

bad was happening to me internally.

32:28

And so So I said, I think I

32:30

need to go somewhere. And she

32:33

drove me to the local

32:36

mental health hospital and

32:38

they did an intake. And

32:40

I finally slept for like the

32:43

first time my

32:45

parents came to see me. You

32:47

know, I don't even think, I don't

32:49

even know if I told my parents all this was going on.

32:52

I was just so ashamed. I

32:55

don't know why. It was just, I didn't

32:58

want people to think I couldn't handle

33:00

things like S. So I didn't

33:02

really tell them that much about what was going

33:04

on with that. I told them other things that

33:06

I was dealing with.

33:08

And I reached

33:10

out to my advisor and we withdrew

33:12

me from my classes, which I actually

33:14

ended up, I'm very proud of myself. I ended

33:16

up graduating on time.

33:18

The next semester I doubled up. I got everything done,

33:21

but she helped me withdraw from my classes

33:23

and I was like, okay, I'm going to stay

33:25

here and

33:26

get the help that I need. So I was

33:29

able to talk about what

33:31

was going on with the people

33:33

at the hospital. And

33:35

we started dealing with my issues, but

33:38

he did call me while I was in the hospital and

33:42

that did not help things. There was

33:44

a

33:45

payphone, it was like in this common

33:47

area and that was how we made

33:49

outgoing calls and how people could call

33:51

us. So there was like one payphone. You'd

33:54

answer it if you heard it ringing and then

33:56

whoever it was for, you'd go try to find that person.

33:59

DAGS. got a call. And it was

34:01

him. I guess my roommate must have

34:03

given him my phone number. I don't

34:06

know why she would have done that. I don't

34:08

know what he would have said to make her give him

34:10

the phone number. I'm not sure. I'm

34:13

still a little upset about that. But

34:15

he called me and he just like making small

34:17

talk. And I was sitting there

34:19

thinking, how bizarre

34:21

is it that he thinks I want to talk to

34:23

him now? And why

34:26

is he still acting like he's my friend after

34:29

everything he's done. And then

34:31

he said, well, now that you're in there,

34:34

everyone here knows that you're the crazy one

34:36

and not me.

34:37

So I don't know what he told

34:40

everybody, but he could have

34:42

told them I was stalking him for all I

34:44

know. I don't know.

34:46

They didn't really seem to care.

34:48

That's part of the reason I ended up in the hospital.

34:51

I felt very alone.

34:52

I felt like I didn't have any friends. I

34:54

felt like nothing I did would

34:57

get them to help me. And I felt

35:00

like they thought I was making things up. So

35:03

I just tried not to talk about it too much.

35:05

How long were you in the hospital for? And when you

35:07

left, did you go back to the apartment or did

35:09

you move somewhere else?

35:11

I was in the hospital for a couple

35:13

of weeks inpatient and then I moved

35:16

to outpatient.

35:18

And I believe I went and stayed with my parents.

35:21

I felt like I

35:23

probably went back to the apartment, picked some stuff up,

35:25

but I went and stayed with my parents because I just,

35:27

I didn't want to see anybody at that point. I was kind of, I

35:29

was humiliated. I was

35:32

afraid they thought I was crazy. I had

35:35

all kinds of friends come and see me in the hospital.

35:37

Nobody from, I think my roommate came

35:39

and saw me, but nobody else that lived

35:41

in that building came to see me that

35:43

I had been hanging out with. I had high

35:46

school friends come see me, other

35:48

people. It was really weird.

35:50

They, they just, it's like they didn't want to, they didn't want be

35:52

associated with me. out

36:00

of the apartment, I

36:03

moved into another place that was nowhere

36:05

near there for the next school year. And

36:08

then I started dating someone pretty seriously.

36:10

So my last couple of years of school,

36:12

he was my age and in my major. So

36:14

he was in classes with me all through the

36:17

end of college. Like I never

36:19

got away from this guy, but

36:21

he didn't bother me. Like once

36:24

the next school year started, I don't

36:27

know if because I was dating someone, he was

36:29

like, well, I don't

36:31

know if he just sort of gave up at that point,

36:33

but I would try to sit as far

36:35

away from him as I could in classes. And

36:39

he pops up every now and then.

36:42

So I took a job right after graduation

36:45

that was in the

36:47

city that our college was in.

36:49

And our department announced

36:52

to everybody whenever someone got a job

36:54

in the field where it was.

36:56

So of course he

36:59

knew where that was because our

37:01

professors announced it. And

37:04

I think he went back home after graduation,

37:07

but a couple of months after graduation,

37:09

I answered the phone at work and

37:11

it was him. And

37:13

he was like, I have a job interview up the street

37:15

at the newspaper. We

37:18

should go get dinner. And again,

37:20

it was with the acting like nothing had happened

37:24

and acting like I would want to have dinner with

37:26

him. And I didn't even know

37:28

what to say. I made some excuse to get off

37:30

the phone, said I was busy or something,

37:32

but I was scared to walk to my

37:34

car that night because it was in a parking

37:36

deck,

37:37

a dark parking deck of the

37:40

street. It wasn't like it was a well-lit

37:43

open parking lot. It was the parking deck. So I had

37:45

a coworker walk me

37:47

to my car and I sort of said to him, oh, there

37:49

was this guy in college and he followed me around.

37:52

That guy actually is my husband now. I

37:55

married him. So he walked me to my car

37:57

for the next couple of days. And

37:59

then...

38:00

I didn't hear anything else from him. But I, again,

38:02

the terror came back. I got scared

38:04

to go out to get lunch. I

38:07

didn't know if he took a job there. I don't

38:10

think he took a job there. I think he ended up going

38:13

somewhere else, but

38:14

I was still scared to live my

38:16

life at that point.

38:18

Did you hear from him

38:20

when you were out in the workforce after

38:22

you had moved on with your life? And

38:24

did you look him up at all? Were you curious

38:26

about how his life was going?

38:29

So he messaged

38:31

me on my space and I

38:34

conversed with him briefly enough

38:36

to find out that he had gone to graduate

38:39

school and where he was

38:41

working, which he works

38:43

for a university system in

38:45

our state. And I think he's been there for

38:47

a long time. So I know where he's at, but

38:49

I don't know anything else about his

38:52

life. And I blocked him on

38:54

my space. I guess, I don't know if you could block

38:56

people on my space, but either I blocked him or I I

38:58

just quit responding to him. And

39:00

then when Facebook got popular, he sent

39:02

me a friend request. And I was like,

39:05

it looks like there's a way I could block people. And

39:08

I'm going to block him. I'm not going to accept

39:10

his friend request. And I'm going to block him. But

39:12

I'm not going to lie and say that in

39:14

the back of my mind, I don't

39:17

think he knows what I'm doing. Because

39:19

my, I have a byline everywhere.

39:21

And my pictures

39:24

run with my byline. And he

39:26

can easily Google my name and figure out

39:28

where I'm at and what I'm doing. Do

39:30

you think that he still

39:33

does look you up, think about you? You

39:36

think some of those stocking tendencies

39:38

are still there?

39:39

I hope not. It's probably better if

39:42

I think that he doesn't. Maybe he's

39:44

in a happy place in his life and moved

39:47

on and has a good career and doesn't

39:50

have to worry about the girl that didn't want to talk

39:52

to him in college anymore. I

39:55

don't know, really.

39:56

Do you think that the university

39:59

could have... put out more resources for

40:01

problems like this? I don't

40:04

know that

40:06

it's addressed enough on college campuses.

40:08

I think that maybe it is a little bit more now

40:11

because now they have to deal with

40:13

cyber stalking and cyber bullying

40:16

and all that stuff that we didn't have to deal with.

40:18

It would be nice if

40:20

colleges in their

40:22

orientation

40:23

meetings

40:25

or maybe RA training

40:27

made sure to address that so that if a

40:29

person is feeling uncomfortable, they can talk

40:31

to someone without feeling like

40:34

you're causing problems. But part of

40:36

my problem was that I just, I didn't tell anybody

40:39

of authority. I had a professor

40:41

in

40:42

my major, she was my advisor

40:44

actually, and she helped bring down

40:46

a cult in California in the 1970s.

40:50

I feel like if I had just gone to her

40:52

and said something, she

40:55

probably would have helped me.

40:57

I was trying to present myself

40:59

to her as a strong, independent,

41:01

young woman who could take care

41:04

of herself and who could turn in her assignments

41:06

and who could write kick-ass copy. I

41:08

didn't want to go to her and look weak,

41:11

but if I had just had a little bit more

41:13

faith in what she could have helped me do, she

41:16

probably would have taken care of it. She would have probably

41:18

gotten hip kicked out of the department.

41:20

How has going through this at a

41:22

young age changed

41:25

your perspective going forward?

41:27

I'm kind of paranoid. I

41:31

am hesitant to talk to

41:33

people I don't know very well. My

41:36

husband is a big extrovert. He's very friendly.

41:40

When we walk into rooms, like

41:42

if we're at a party or if we're at a social

41:44

event, he will make eye contact

41:47

with every single person he sees in the room

41:49

and

41:49

say, hi, how are How are you doing? Good to

41:52

see you. And I'm like this. I

41:54

can't. I do not do that. I

41:56

don't want to catch

41:59

the eye of some- one that may think that I'm

42:01

flirting with them or want to

42:04

have a relationship with them. I've

42:07

had to explain it to him. I'm not trying to be rude.

42:10

I just am very cautious

42:12

about who I talk to. And it

42:15

also

42:16

makes me very aware

42:19

situationally. Like if I'm

42:21

by myself in a dark parking lot, I

42:23

make sure I have my keys ready,

42:26

not looking at my phone while I'm walking to my car.

42:29

If there's anything sketchy going on, I do not

42:31

go out to my car or I get

42:33

somewhere safe quickly. Rene,

42:36

why did you decide to come forward and share your story

42:38

with us today? I wanted to come

42:40

forward with the story because I don't think people realize

42:43

how many go through this type of event and

42:45

it can affect your life in a lot of ways.

42:48

For

42:48

the longest time, I was afraid to go anywhere by

42:50

myself at night for fear of being followed

42:53

or put in a dangerous situation.

42:55

If a man I don't know tries to compliment me

42:57

or message me on social media, I worry about

43:00

being catfished. And

43:02

for the longest time, I was afraid

43:04

to talk about this or write about it, because

43:06

I know how easily my stalker can

43:08

keep track of me if he wants to. But

43:11

I had to kind of learn to move

43:13

past that fear and quit

43:15

letting him hang over me and what

43:17

I choose to do with my life and what I choose to write

43:20

about and talk about. And And

43:23

I think it could be helpful to other people too who might be afraid

43:25

to talk about it. What advice would

43:27

you have for another girl

43:29

going through this in college, trying

43:32

to turn a guy down and he's not listening

43:34

and he starts following her? Now

43:38

I would tell somebody to

43:40

be honest, I don't

43:42

think I was blunt enough

43:44

with him. I think I probably should have been a little

43:47

meaner than I was, but I didn't want

43:49

to be mean at that time.

43:51

So I would probably tell someone, if you

43:53

need to be blunt and say, I'm not

43:55

interested in and ever having a relationship

43:57

with you, do

43:58

that. Because

44:00

I think because those words actually never

44:03

came out of my mouth He

44:05

thought that

44:06

there was always a chance maybe

44:08

So I think first of all, you have to be firm.

44:10

No, don't just block the person Tell

44:14

them why you're blocking them basically

44:16

and then

44:18

Get help from somebody

44:20

Like go to a trusted advisor

44:22

or go to a professor go to I mean,

44:24

I'm sure that the college campuses now

44:26

have

44:28

offices that

44:29

are designed to help students in

44:32

mediation and things like that. I would

44:34

definitely tell someone to use those resources

44:37

and not to expect much from your friends because

44:40

they're young and immature and they probably

44:43

aren't going to understand exactly what you're

44:45

going through and they're not

44:47

going to want to get involved either. So

44:49

it's better not to, you can talk

44:52

to people about it but don't rely

44:54

on them to help you because they don't have the resources

44:56

either. And how has all

44:59

of this affected the rest of

45:01

your life, your career path? Where are you

45:03

at now? Right now, things

45:05

are going really well. I have two

45:08

great kids, a husband I've been married

45:10

to for a long time. They're all very

45:13

supportive of everything I do.

45:15

Sometimes I write weird things and

45:17

they don't understand, but they

45:20

haven't lived my life.

45:23

They've always been very supportive

45:25

of my creative endeavors and

45:27

when I started my podcast, Missing in the Carolinas,

45:29

they were very excited. They recommended it to all

45:31

their friends.

45:33

It's actually a great icebreaker at parties.

45:35

You know, I said I don't talk to people at parties. When

45:38

people hear I have a podcast, they come over and they're

45:40

like look it up on their app and they go ahead and

45:42

download it.

45:43

So that's been really fun and I

45:45

think probably that if I hadn't been through

45:48

this, I wouldn't have become so

45:50

interested in true crime. I was always

45:52

interested in true crime, but this

45:55

kind of took it to another level, But it did

45:57

take me many years before I could speak

45:59

about it. write about it, coherently

46:02

do anything with it. And right now

46:04

I'm actually working on a novel about a

46:07

podcaster that's trying to solve her sister's

46:09

disappearance and she runs a podcast

46:12

about survivor stories. So

46:14

I think a lot of the things that I've

46:16

experienced, you can kind of see

46:19

throughout the pages of what I'm getting

46:21

down and expressing that

46:23

paranoia that you feel when you're being stalked

46:25

by somebody. Tell us a little bit more

46:28

about your podcast. It

46:30

started out as a missing persons podcast.

46:33

And what I wanted to do was talk

46:35

about some of the high-profile cases

46:38

in North and South Carolina, because that is the

46:40

regional area that I live in. But

46:42

then the more research I did,

46:45

I started covering missing persons

46:47

cases that had also been solved.

46:49

Because I thought it was interesting to follow

46:51

those stories from the beginning to the in because there's usually

46:54

some sort of cautionary tale in

46:56

there. And I use a lot of primary

46:59

sources with those. Sometimes I do interviews with

47:01

people. And then I in

47:04

the past year or so started

47:07

weaving in some North and South Carolina

47:09

true crime into the podcast because I started

47:12

looking at my analytics and noticing that

47:15

those episodes actually got more downloads

47:17

than the ones about missing people. So

47:20

it's been really interesting. I've learned a lot of interesting

47:23

crimes in this area that I didn't know

47:25

about. I

47:26

met a lot of interesting people. I interview book

47:28

authors, true crime authors. It's

47:31

been a lot of fun. Rene, thank you

47:33

so much for joining us today. Thank

47:35

you for having me. Thank you, Rene. If

47:37

anyone out there is in need of help or is a victim

47:39

of stalking, please reach out. You can find

47:42

a list of resources on our Instagram at

47:44

StrictlyStalkingPod.

47:45

If you'd like to share your story with us on Strictly

47:47

Stalking, you can reach us at Strictly Stalking

47:50

Pod at gmail.com. That's StrictlyStalkingPOD

47:53

at gmail.com.

48:00

music or wherever you listen.

48:01

I'm Jake Deptula. And I'm Jamie Bebe.

48:03

Thank you for joining us on today's episode of

48:05

Strictly Stalking.

48:14

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