0:10

Hi everyone. I'm Brad Stone in for Emily

0:13

Chang, and this is Bloomberg Studio

0:15

one point oh. As head of our global

0:17

technology coverage, I lead a team

0:19

of about fifty reporters and editors around

0:21

the world, working on stories that range

0:23

from we works for remarkable rise and

0:25

dramatic fall to the soft Bank

0:28

Vision Funds culture of recklessness.

0:30

I was excited to fill in the anchorcy for this

0:33

episode because our subject is a

0:35

long time Silicon Valley entrepreneur

0:37

and the author of a previous book, I've Admired

0:40

The Hard Thing about hard Things. As

0:45

an entrepreneur, author, and one of the most

0:47

well known venture capitalists on Sandhill

0:50

Road, Ben Horowitz and his partner Mark

0:52

entrees and have invested in some of the biggest

0:54

tech names in the last decade. Facebook,

0:57

Slack, Airbnb, Lift, and

1:00

dozens more. He's

1:03

now focused on helping founders shape their

1:05

company culture with his new book,

1:08

What You Do Is Who You Are. Here's

1:10

my conversation with Ben Horowitz,

1:12

co founder of increase In Horowitz, on

1:14

Bloomberg Studio one point oh.

1:29

Ben books on corporate culture are

1:31

not rare in the pantheon of business

1:33

books, but books on corporate culture that

1:36

involve Haitian revolutionary

1:39

prison gang leader and uh an

1:41

infamous Mongol general. That

1:44

that's unique. Tell us a little bit about the inspiration

1:46

for digging that far back in history,

1:48

profiling some unflattering

1:52

portraits and using that to inform

1:54

modern business lessons. When you think about

1:56

culture, it's really complex.

1:59

It's a comply topic and so

2:01

I'll just give you like it kind of started all from

2:04

my own like experience

2:06

as CEO, where I was like, Okay, how

2:08

do I be a good CEO? So I ask all the old

2:11

heads, like the O G CEOs, like how

2:13

do you do this? What you do focus on? And They're like,

2:15

ben, pay attention to culture? And I'm like,

2:18

okay, got it, what's

2:20

that? How do I do that? And stuff

2:22

got very vague, and I always wondered, what, like why

2:24

was it so vague? How do you do it? And it

2:27

turns out that you know all

2:29

these little things that your employees ask themselves,

2:31

like you know, what

2:33

do I like should I stay till

2:35

five or till eight? Should I like

2:38

return that phone call today or tomorrow? Should

2:40

I, like say, at the red roof in or at the four seasons?

2:43

All that is dictated not by like your

2:45

mission statement or okay rs or all

2:48

that, it's by your culture. Now, often

2:50

a company is gonna have a website and they're gonna be they're

2:52

gonna be principles and they're on the wall. Yeah,

2:55

cultures, and that's what you believe. That's

2:57

not what you do. And you know this is why what

3:00

you do is who you are, and this is what's

3:02

so key about that. But so

3:04

then you get into it further and you go, well, like

3:07

culture is not every culture

3:09

works for every company. Like every company

3:12

is trying to do what it's trying to do and it

3:14

needs a culture that supports that. So like Apple

3:16

doesn't need the Amazon culture of the frugality

3:19

because their high design fly coach everywhere.

3:23

They're probably flying first class. Well and they're

3:25

they're campuses, like you know, they've got

3:28

five thousand dollar door knobs and stuff on the

3:30

thing, because like everything's got to be about

3:32

like perfect design, whereas Amazon is

3:34

about low cost leaders. So different cultures

3:37

and so that kind of got me into well,

3:39

like in order to write

3:41

this book, I really have to understand

3:44

like who solved the very hard cultural

3:47

problems and also make those examples

3:50

from like really different

3:52

things. So you open your mind up. You're not just like I'm

3:55

in Silicon Valley. I'm getting these

3:57

people with STEM degrees and so forth. You have to

3:59

think about your people from first principles.

4:01

What do they walk in with? So Ben, I want to take

4:03

a step back and look at your own career.

4:06

You started a company loud Cloud that became

4:08

OPS, where you sold at HP. You started

4:10

Andres and Horowitz the venture capital firm at

4:12

two thousand and nine. How much were you thinking

4:14

about culture in

4:17

those two situations. Yeah,

4:19

so I thought about it a lot at

4:22

loud Cloud, and I wasn't very good

4:24

at it at all, you know, like in retrospect,

4:27

which is you know, part of the motivation for the book.

4:29

It was the hardest thing to master. I got better

4:31

at it at Opswere, but it

4:33

was still not um

4:37

you know, when you get into like how do you get

4:39

exactly what you want to know know? The culture? That was much more

4:41

difficult. And I think that at Andres and Horrowitz

4:43

like I'm the best of the three, uh,

4:45

but you know, it's still a very difficult

4:47

thing to get right. And I think that the if

4:51

you know, when people ask, okay, like why

4:53

do you win, and like, how did you get to be

4:55

like, uh, you know, at

4:58

the top tier so fast. It's

5:00

a d percent of cultural advantage in

5:03

that when entrepreneurs deal

5:05

with us, it feels completely different

5:07

than dealing with other venture capital firms. And

5:10

so that part has really worked to our

5:12

advantage. And and I'm it's the thing that

5:14

I'm probably most proud about everybody who

5:16

works here on UM.

5:19

But we're definitely far from perfect, like so

5:21

like and I quite frankly, I've never met

5:23

an organization that's anywhere near perfect. And

5:25

building a good corporate culture, you

5:28

have to be harsh sometimes. So you tell the story

5:30

of Read Hastings transforming Netflix

5:32

from a DVD to a digital company, and he stops

5:34

inviting the DVD executives to meetings

5:37

like does to the executive staff the most

5:40

coveted meeting company. I'm sure

5:42

they're not happy about that. So so to what

5:44

extent the CEO s need to, you

5:47

know, to be tough and sometimes even cruel to

5:49

create a good corporate culture. Well,

5:51

look, you know, I mean you know, sometimes

5:55

uh it's

5:58

necessary and you have to be careful, right

6:00

because are like is

6:02

the cruelness UM out

6:05

of intent for like to be sadistic

6:07

or is it to demonstrate

6:09

the priority or set the town Like

6:11

here I find people ten dollars

6:13

a minute for being late for a meeting. It's like, well that

6:16

person, you know, like she had to go to the bathroom, where

6:18

are you like finding her like eighty dollars? Like

6:20

you know, like people gotta go, you gotta go. But

6:23

it's the cultural point is

6:26

we really value the time that

6:29

entrepreneurs have to spend building the companies, and so

6:31

we plan to do everything from

6:33

like finish our phone calls, to go to the bathroom to whatever,

6:35

and we're on time to that meeting. Um,

6:37

And that's more important than how

6:40

unfair that particular fine was for that person.

6:43

As I was reading the book, I kept wondering our

6:45

great cultural creators,

6:48

creators of corporate culture, are they Are

6:50

they educated or is it instinctive? Like

6:52

for example, did did Bezos and did

6:54

read Hastings that Netflix study this or

6:57

did they just have a sort of implicit understanding

7:00

of how to build these cultures? Yeah?

7:03

You know that one of the reasons I wrote the book because I don't

7:05

know what you would study, like it's tricky. I mean I

7:07

ended up studying to Sound overture, right,

7:09

like so, and we have

7:11

to study the Asian leader

7:13

who who you write about, Like

7:15

how do you turn a slave army guys who didn't

7:18

even wear clothes, you

7:20

know, into like an army that could defeat Napoleon?

7:22

Like how do you do that? That? That? That was just like

7:24

an incredible question. And of course to Sound

7:26

was obsessed with culture, like it was he

7:29

like every aspect of if his thought process

7:32

always went through this cultural lens. You know,

7:34

as a leader, you can pick up on

7:36

things like that and understand these these

7:38

examples. Um, but I think, you know,

7:40

like a lot of it is kind

7:42

of naturally understanding how people are

7:45

going to behave if you you know, if you do this,

7:47

then they're gonna act like that. But Toussant is interesting

7:49

because he's not perfect, right, he

7:51

becomes a slave leader himself. He

7:53

asks his soldiers to be monogamous

7:56

and and he is not. And the

7:58

and the title of the book is you know who

8:00

you are is what you do. And

8:02

so you know, there's a little bit of a contradiction there

8:04

that sometimes good cultural leaders

8:07

are not perfect themselves.

8:09

And I mean, you know, I mean, like even

8:12

like with Jeff pizzos, right, Like, you know, here's a guy

8:14

who is a great cultural leader and

8:17

then all of a sudden, like he's in the taboloids

8:19

and it's crazy and you're like, what

8:21

what happened? Jeff? But like that they were

8:23

humans. I don't think there's anybody that's a hundred

8:25

percent And and and that's what you know, Like the difference

8:28

between people who get you

8:30

know, massively criticized for their cultural

8:32

flaws and people who get you know, super

8:34

praised is a lot thinner than you might think

8:37

on a lot of these things. Um.

8:40

But you know it's

8:42

what you do organizationally,

8:44

right, Like what does every person do? How do they

8:46

all behave? And you know, is that

8:48

who you want to be? Or is that

8:51

far from what you want to be? And I think that, um.

8:53

And the other thing is that changes and evolves, like

8:55

over time, like you can have a good culture

8:58

and lose it. You're

9:09

listening to my conversation with Ben Horowitz,

9:12

co founder of Andres and Horowitz. Up

9:14

next, we unpack why some tech

9:16

companies are choosing to stay private

9:18

longer. Plus we hear horowitz

9:21

Is candid advice to some of the younger

9:23

CEOs in his portfolio. I'm

9:25

Brad Stone. This is Bloomberg

9:27

Studio one point. Oh,

9:44

so I want to talk to you a little bit about modern

9:46

Silicon Valley and some of the ways that

9:48

your book applies. We're arguably

9:50

coming to an end of a business cycle here.

9:53

We might call it the unicorn side. Well

9:56

I don't, I don't necessarily mean go into

9:58

the decad perhaps

10:00

about um. You know, a lot of company the

10:02

big companies have gone public. There are a couple

10:04

that are that are coming Airbnb, palant

10:07

here. A lot of the companies that have gone public recently

10:10

are underwater from there from their stock price,

10:12

their I p O price. What was there?

10:14

Do you think there was a cultural problem

10:17

in Silicon Molly over these last two ten

10:19

years of amazing growth that caused like weird

10:21

I p O price, So particularly maybe in

10:23

the in the venture capital community and the in the global

10:26

finance community, Well that caused

10:28

weird valuations. Well, I think it was

10:30

more of the

10:32

there's been a a shift, which

10:35

is um you know, from

10:38

kind of where a huge class

10:40

of companies that would have been public now stay

10:42

private longer. And this is kind of

10:45

starting with the regulations in the

10:47

late nineties and through Sarbanes

10:49

s Soxley's reg f D all these kinds of

10:51

things that just made it much

10:53

less attractive to be a public company

10:56

than it used to be, so people stay private

10:58

longer. The problem with the private more markets

11:00

from a capital market standpoint is

11:02

there very liquid they

11:04

don't trade very often, and

11:06

so the pricing kind

11:09

of mechanism makes it really

11:11

a different thing than And

11:13

then you have these incentives from like, you

11:15

know, firms like ours, where you take

11:17

money and you've got to invest it. And

11:20

so I think

11:22

it's more, you know, it's it's list to

11:24

do with the companies and more to do with the

11:26

investors. And I think that

11:29

the criteria that the private market investors

11:31

have been using are clearly not the same as the

11:33

public market. And then you have new entities

11:35

like soft Bank, which are private

11:38

investors that seek to replicate,

11:40

you know, the complete function of the public markets.

11:43

And you know, so there're pricing distortions,

11:46

I guess, I would say, And broadly, I was sort

11:48

of wondering if you felt like the

11:50

community here in Silicon Valley has learned

11:52

from the cultural mistakes in the past.

11:54

And you do devote sometime in the in the book

11:57

to to Uber, and you've you've leveled some criticisms

11:59

against Uber before, and we should say that entries

12:01

and Horowitz is an investor left the lift.

12:04

And actually we should also say that a Bloomberg

12:06

LP, which one Bloomberg Television has

12:08

invested in Entrywards fun. So clear

12:11

that. But what surprised me about your

12:13

discussion of Uber in the book is

12:15

that you know, not only did you know, take

12:17

issue with Travis Kalinic's attempt

12:19

to define a corporate culture for for for Uber,

12:22

but his successor, Dara comes

12:24

in rewrites the cultural values

12:26

and has one that says do the

12:28

right thing, period, and he thought

12:30

that that was a little too ambiguous. Yeah,

12:33

for sure. I mean Paul, like, first of all, like with

12:36

Travis, as I point

12:38

out, like he was, you

12:41

know, fantastic

12:44

on culture, like one of the best CEOs

12:47

we've had here. And then you

12:49

know, in the way phrase hid in the book is like he

12:51

had a great code, but he had a bug in the code, and that

12:53

bug ended up being like and we say, it's harder to

12:56

fix bugs and culture than it isn't code.

12:58

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, because you've

13:01

got to deal with all the humans that have picked up

13:03

that that bug um and

13:07

so you know, he had a lot of strengths I

13:09

think, you know, and then dark came in

13:12

and you know, kind of corrected

13:14

the buck, which was like a very very

13:16

difficult job um.

13:18

But in terms of like getting

13:20

back to the strength of that culture, it

13:23

was a lot more vanilla. And I think do the right thing

13:25

period is a great example of that. And

13:27

that like in business, Like the

13:29

difficult thing about ethics is

13:31

what does that mean? In business? It's like,

13:33

well, is the right thing too? I

13:36

promised that I hit this number to my investor

13:38

when I took the money. Is that the right thing to hit that number?

13:40

Is that the right thing? To make sure I tell the

13:42

exact truth to the customer so they're

13:44

not confused on things like which is more the

13:47

right thing? And uh,

13:49

unless you're explicit about ethics and what you

13:51

mean by it exactly, is

13:53

very very unlikely to land in

13:55

the way you wanted to land. Have you had examples

13:58

in your portfolio companies where you've and disappointed

14:01

in the cultural stewardship

14:03

of your founders. Of course you give us

14:05

an example. Well, I don't want to I

14:08

don't want to name names, but like, so you know, I had a

14:10

conversation with one

14:13

of our one of our founders, you know they

14:15

they had I would just say,

14:17

like a loose culture

14:20

that you know, look like it was

14:22

going to lead to harassment all kinds

14:24

of other stuff. Um,

14:26

And I said, you know something, when

14:28

I entered the business, we

14:31

used to wear like suits to work. And

14:34

they said really, And I was like, do you know why

14:36

we were suits to work? It's like

14:40

no idea. I was like, so we would know

14:42

we were at work. We didn't

14:44

think we were at home where we could like

14:47

get drunk, like you

14:49

know, talk loosely. You can't.

14:51

This is work. You've got to let people know their

14:53

work. Um, you know that's not okay.

14:56

So I've had many of these conversations over the years,

14:59

but um,

15:01

you know that's like, you know,

15:03

you're twenty two years old or whatever,

15:05

you started a company, you have a great invention. What

15:08

do you know about any of this kind of

15:10

thing? And so that's why the book, I mean,

15:12

I think that looked in defense of everybody,

15:14

not just in the portfolio, but way beyond the

15:16

portfolio. I haven't

15:18

talked spoken to CEO who doesn't want to take culture

15:21

seriously, but you

15:23

know, knowing how to do that as a whole another man, it tends

15:25

to come last on the list of priorities when it's living

15:28

right. Exactly has Silicon Valley gotten

15:30

better, particularly with the trials of this last

15:32

batch of startups? Um?

15:35

I look, I think that I don't

15:38

think it was like that

15:40

bad relative too, I mean certainly

15:43

relative to like the media industry, Harvey

15:45

Weinstein. I mean, these guys, we don't have anybody had bad.

15:48

I don't feel like Silicon Valley was,

15:50

you know, the worst or like even

15:53

necessarily on the bad side. But I do think

15:55

we have a lot of inexperienced CEOs,

15:57

and I think that, um, because

16:00

of that, people haven't had

16:02

the knowledge tool set to kind

16:04

of create the culture that they wanted. This

16:14

is my conversation with Ben Horowitz,

16:16

co founder of Andres and Horowitz. Coming

16:18

up, we dig deeper into Silicon Valleys

16:21

diversity challenge, and what lessons

16:23

a modern day tech entrepreneur can

16:25

learn from the Mongol leader Genghis

16:28

Khan. I'm Brad Stone and

16:30

you're listening to Bloomberg Studio one

16:32

point, Oh, stay with us. What

16:50

does corporate America have to learn

16:53

from? Shaka Singre. He spent

16:55

nineteen years in a maximum security

16:57

prison for committing a murder. Yeah.

17:00

Well, like a lot of it starts with day one, like

17:02

new employee orientation in prison, so

17:04

like he comes out of quarantine,

17:07

him and like the other newbies,

17:10

UM are basically in the wreck area

17:12

and one prisoner walks up to another one and

17:15

stabs him, and Shaka says to me, He's

17:17

like, well, when that happened,

17:19

we're all looking at each other like what is this? And

17:21

I had to ask myself, he said, could

17:24

I do that? Because I can't do that at that point,

17:27

and that's what I needed to do to survive

17:29

in prison. And so I'm

17:31

thinking, wow,

17:33

that's exactly how people actually walk into

17:36

work, you know, they come in and

17:38

they're like, well, what do I have to do to succeed?

17:41

How is that guy be How are the people who are had

17:43

behaving? Because that's how I'm gonna behave. I'm gonna adopt

17:45

that and being able to understand

17:48

that example, UM was just powerful.

17:51

But then he you know, he

17:53

climbs up the ladder like learns how to do you

17:55

know, like literally change. One of the

17:58

most powerful gangs in the state prisons is him.

18:00

Yeah, yeah, and uh,

18:02

you know he had to ask himself.

18:04

And it was a really interesting thing because when

18:07

people read his book, they're like, oh,

18:09

it's a story of redemption and this and that anotherbody

18:11

like he didn't find Jesus. None of that happened. It

18:13

was much more like a classic leadership

18:16

thing is like, oh, now I'm in power. Okay,

18:19

what's next. My whole life was climbing

18:21

the career ladder, and he climbed it in prison,

18:24

and now I'm in charge, and

18:26

like who do I really want to

18:28

be? Who do I want this organization

18:30

to be? And then that process was

18:32

really amazing how he changed

18:35

himself. And then what did he do with this

18:37

gang that you feel like our fundamentally

18:39

good leadership values, Well,

18:41

I think, look, you know, if you if you're gonna

18:44

changing the culture takes real courage.

18:46

You have to confront people on their very core

18:48

beliefs about like what's going

18:50

on and um, and

18:52

you know in that case, like here you're talking about

18:54

like a like a pretty violent society

18:57

that's concluded they want to go like this way

18:59

and and uh, you know, culture

19:01

requires that kind of leadership to move it into

19:04

a different direction. Another unorthodox

19:06

example in this very unorthodox business book

19:09

is Genghis Khan, the Mongol leader.

19:11

I had to google this. He killed forty

19:13

million people. Well I think those numbers are but

19:16

he he is praised for loyalty and inclusion,

19:19

for inspiring not just in his own troops,

19:21

but for the people that he conquered, loyalty

19:24

to his cause. And I felt at some point,

19:26

you know, in reading it that it was a little like complimenting

19:29

Kim Jong hoon for his fashion sense.

19:31

Right, he did some things well, but you know he's

19:33

not. But but tell me why what

19:35

what the what the what? What lessons we should

19:38

take from studying Genghiskan? Yeah,

19:40

So, look, I think inclusion was one of the things

19:42

I wanted to cover because I think it's something that

19:45

UM people get very confused

19:47

on. So a lot of you know, and

19:49

and a lot of it is driven by, um,

19:53

how you want people to see you, not what you do, but how

19:55

you want people to see you. So it's like, well, if I have this

19:57

many women, this many minority

19:59

under represented minorities, and I get the gold

20:01

star, you know, like I'm okay, and

20:04

that's what I want, the gold star. But that's without thinking

20:06

about Okay, culturally, how

20:08

did you recruit those people,

20:10

how did you get them in? And what is it gonna be like for

20:12

them to work there? Once they're there? Are they going to be first

20:14

class citizens? Or did they

20:16

did you like run them through the side door,

20:19

so now they're not even treated correctly and

20:21

so um, you know,

20:23

and how effective is that going to be? How effective are

20:25

they going to be? How effective are you going to be in an organization

20:28

if you run it that way? And Genghis Khan is actually

20:31

interestingly the prototype for

20:34

bringing people in really

20:36

seeing them for their talents, um. And he did

20:38

this. You know, he would get the best

20:40

engineers from China and so forth, and and

20:42

you know, the most courageous guys from the other tribe,

20:44

and he would really even though they were from different cultures, different

20:47

backgrounds, he would only see who they were.

20:49

But then when he brought them in, he

20:52

treated them so much like his own

20:54

that he would adopt the kids into

20:56

his own family. So he would literally make them part

20:59

of his family. So they were like completely

21:02

first class citizens. And that enabled all kinds

21:04

of military strategy. Uh,

21:06

that was unmatched because everybody else

21:08

was very hierarchical. He was completely

21:11

a meritocracy. Um. And he

21:13

was really able to see the talent. And I

21:15

think that in technology,

21:18

in order to get to diversity the right way, you

21:20

have to be able to see the talent. You have to

21:22

be able to see what people come from different

21:24

backgrounds can do that you

21:26

may not be able to do yourself. And that that's

21:28

why he was the master of inclusion and

21:31

you right, and seeing that as more important than good intensions,

21:33

than than just appointing a diversity

21:36

officer inside your company. You although

21:38

you guys do have portfolio companies that

21:40

that do that. So what do you hope Silicon

21:42

Valley, which has struggled with diversity, can

21:44

take from this? Yeah? So I look, I think

21:46

that um it gets a deeper understanding

21:49

and then you know, with the diversity officer

21:51

there, then you know, I talked about this, but

21:53

you know, I had this conversation with my friend Steve

21:55

Stout and he's like, Ben, I used to run

21:57

Sony Urban Music. And I was like, that's

22:00

great, Steve, I knew that, and he's

22:02

like, yeah, but you're not listening to me. I ran Sonny

22:04

Urban Music, but it was really Sony

22:06

Black music, but they made me call it urban music

22:08

because calling it Sonny black music would have been racist.

22:11

And I was like, wow, that's kind of weird, and he's like,

22:13

no, what was really done was that? Like, because

22:15

it was called sony urban music, I can only market

22:17

in cities like no black people lived in,

22:19

like the country. And I was like, wow, that's really dumb,

22:22

and he's like, no, you're not listening to me. It was sony

22:24

urban music. I had Michael

22:26

Jackson. What white people don't

22:28

like Michael Jackson. It wasn't black music,

22:31

it was music. And I was like, snap,

22:33

that's exactly what we do with talent in Silicon

22:37

We have urban talent, you know. Okay, we're

22:39

gonna run, We're gonna force a

22:42

certain kind of talent that we don't understand through

22:44

another door, um called the

22:46

diversity door. Uh, and then

22:49

we're not going to actually let it be all it can be.

22:51

And the epilogue to that story is, as

22:53

soon as they got rid of the whole industry

22:56

distribution structure and urban music and all that,

22:58

and it went to streaming like

23:01

black music, hip hop music is like

23:04

the top hundred, and so they

23:06

had restricted the whole thing. They had limited

23:08

the whole talent thing by creating

23:11

this special talent group and I

23:13

think we do a lot of that here, and so

23:15

a lot of the point of that chapter is, well, like how

23:17

do you get away from that and how do you make it just talent

23:19

and not urban talent. Ben use one other

23:21

major example in the book the Japanese

23:24

samurai and how they contemplate

23:26

death as a way to focus themselves and

23:28

find meaning. And I was wondering,

23:30

and you kind of suggest that maybe entrepreneurs

23:33

contemplate the death of their companies. I'm

23:35

wondering if you do that, if you have, if you meditate

23:38

upon the disastrous end of

23:40

this venture capital firm entries in Horrowitz. So

23:42

I do you know, like and um,

23:45

you know with the samurai, it

23:48

comes from this place of okay,

23:51

do this like it's the last

23:53

time you're going to do it, and if this

23:55

was the last time you ever, you

23:58

know, and it's everything from like take a bad like

24:01

did you do it right to this day, Like

24:03

Jeff, Japanese craftsmanship is

24:06

you know, I would say best in

24:08

the world on like a million

24:10

different crafts. It's crazy how good they

24:12

are at things. And it comes from this kind

24:14

of cultural idea. And I think

24:16

for us, um it really is about

24:18

and I talked to I teach new employee

24:21

orientation here, and I say, look, you

24:23

know what you're going to remember isn't like

24:26

what deals we did or this and that and the other. You're

24:28

gonna remember what it felt like to work here, how

24:31

when we worked with companies, how that made

24:33

them feel, whether that made them better or worse,

24:35

whether that made them like more

24:38

anxious and arbitrary or like better

24:40

leaders, and so everything

24:42

that we do, you've got to keep that in mind. Like

24:45

when this is over, what was

24:47

it like? Um? So, yeah,

24:50

I adopted that from the Samurai, and I

24:52

think it's I think it's a powerful way to think about

24:54

your job and when you wake up and like,

24:56

Okay, if this is the last day we do this, how are

24:58

we going to do it? Bad Horowitz's author

25:00

of What You Do is who you Are? Thanks for joining

25:03

us. Bloomberg

25:14

Studio One point Oh is produced and edited

25:16

by Kevin Hines. Our executive

25:18

producer is Candy chang Are. Managing

25:21

editor is Danielle Culbertson. I'm

25:23

Brad Stone, Senior Executive editor

25:25

and head of Technology coverage for Bloomberg

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News. This is Bloomberg