0:03

Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told

0:05

You from how stupp Works dot com.

0:13

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

0:15

and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking

0:17

to a lady whom we hugely

0:20

admire and have sided so many

0:22

times on stuff Mom Never Told You. Yes,

0:25

I'm super excited for you guys to

0:27

hear our conversation with rad

0:30

lady journalist and podcaster and friedman

0:33

Um. Kristen reached

0:35

out to Anne when we were on our way

0:37

out to California earlier this year

0:40

on the off chance that we might be able to chat,

0:42

and she said yes, And it was one of those things where

0:44

you kind of like do a little happy

0:46

dance, even if it's just in your brain.

0:49

Uh, we're in the gifts that you send each

0:51

other in excitement, right exactly.

0:54

Uh, you know, usually involving

0:56

like champagne or Oprah or something.

0:59

Um to really illustrate the true depth

1:01

of our excitement. Um. But we're

1:04

such a fan of Ants because she is

1:06

such a fantastic writer, and that

1:08

would be enough in and of itself, but

1:11

she really tackles a lot of

1:13

fascinating and fantastic issues

1:16

around women and gender

1:18

and feminism and she's really sort of

1:20

a critical voice in today's

1:22

media. Yeah. I mean, and we've got

1:24

to talk about Call your Girlfriend, her

1:27

fantastic podcast that she co hosts

1:29

with Amnatu. So, um,

1:31

they talk about pop

1:33

culture, politics, feminism,

1:36

this weekend, menstruation stuff.

1:38

I ever told you fans, if you're not already fans

1:40

of Call your Girlfriend, you will

1:43

be and you should be. Yeah,

1:45

And when you hear the conversation,

1:49

I hope it feels like you're in the room with us

1:51

having some lady chat, because I

1:53

know when I really listened to the interview, that's how

1:55

it felt to me. And I was there the first time.

1:58

Um, but we sort of in our

2:00

in our talk with and we sort of give a glimpse

2:02

into what it's like

2:05

to be women whose voices are

2:07

public, whether that means fielding

2:11

uh, responses from listeners

2:13

that are on the positive or the negative end of the spectrum,

2:15

or just grappling with that whole lady

2:17

voice issue, you know, don't apologize,

2:20

don't say sorry, also stay away from vocal

2:22

fry and like, oh, just talking

2:24

about the whole rule book for women's

2:26

voices. And since she's full time freelance,

2:29

we also wanted to talk to her about

2:31

her as a business and a brand

2:34

and the issue of self promotion, because

2:36

this is something that also gets really gendered

2:39

really quickly, and something that women

2:42

might not feel as comfortable

2:45

doing. Um but it's so crucial

2:48

to the way a lot of our

2:50

digital media businesses work

2:53

these days. Um And. Speaking

2:55

of which, for people who aren't

2:57

familiar with an Freedman, let's

3:00

talk a little bit about who she is,

3:02

because she doesn't give like a full

3:04

bio she is and

3:06

Caroline, I felt like such a creeper the

3:09

other night when I was putting

3:12

together you know, this bio that we were about

3:14

to share, and was googling her

3:16

and ended up on her Wikipedia page.

3:20

Um and and felt like a huge

3:22

stalker. Also because reading

3:25

the Wikipedia page, I

3:27

was a little flummix that

3:30

it left out certain things that

3:32

I particularly enjoy about her work, like

3:34

lady swagger that she talks about,

3:36

like shine theory. All of these like cornerstones

3:39

to me of a Freedman's

3:42

work. I was like, who who wrote this Wikipedia

3:44

page? Also, in its description

3:47

um of her as a feminist, it says

3:49

that like n. Freeman has publicly

3:51

identified in speeches as

3:53

a feminist, is very stilted. I'm

3:56

very suspicious of whoever wrote her Wikipedia

3:58

page. But let's give a better or introduction

4:00

than than that Wikipedia page of who who

4:03

Anne is? In not her words.

4:07

Well, uh, she is a

4:09

fellow j school grad yeah,

4:12

and is an Iowa native. She studied

4:14

journalism at the University of Missouri Columbia

4:17

before becoming an editor at Feminist

4:19

NG, which is another resource

4:22

that you and I have sided quite a bit on the podcast.

4:24

Yeah. Then she was in d C working

4:27

as a deputy editor at The American

4:29

Prospect and then hopped over to

4:31

become the executive editor of Good

4:34

Magazine, which, Uh,

4:36

that whole thing went down in flames,

4:39

not because of Anne, but because of some shoddy

4:42

leadership. And I highly recommend

4:44

that you listen to her interview on the She

4:46

Does podcast because she talks

4:49

more about that experience and how it

4:52

fired her up. And she used that

4:54

really negative experience for her and the other editorial

4:57

staffers who were laid off as something really

4:59

amazing. Um, And ever since

5:01

then, she's been building her

5:04

freelance lady empire.

5:06

And let's talk about what what this

5:08

empire consists of. We've got

5:11

her pie chart. She's the mistress

5:13

of gifts. She's a podcast or

5:15

extraordinaire. Can we explain her

5:17

pie charts briefly for those who haven't

5:19

seen our tumbler, Yes,

5:22

please do so. I love her pie

5:24

charts. They're hilarious. I have frequently

5:27

posted them to our sminty tumbler

5:29

Kristen Um. Basically, she takes

5:31

like a current event or just something she's thinking about

5:33

and breaks it down. For instance, she has

5:35

one what are we doing on this airplane?

5:40

Trying to open a third bag of pretzels

5:43

in the least noisy and humiliating way possible,

5:46

crying at a Pixar movie. Just things like that. And

5:48

she's so funny and so

5:51

smart, and I have such a lady crush on her.

5:53

And honestly, the day we met her, she was wearing the most

5:55

fantastic lipstick and I

5:58

just so badly wanted to ask her what kind of lipstick

6:00

it was, but we had just met. I

6:02

didn't know if it would be weird. We were talking about

6:04

feminism, which of course you can talk about

6:07

lipstick and a conversation about feminism, but Caroline,

6:09

I was right there with you. It was this

6:11

incredible bold shade

6:14

of not read yeah

6:16

instead of just asking her about it directly, we're

6:18

now talking about it on a podcast.

6:20

Well here, let me do it and make a non creepy

6:23

transition from the pie charts.

6:25

We can just hop right over cool our

6:28

our lipstick admiration

6:31

and mentioned that if

6:33

you want to see her pie charts every week,

6:36

become a premium subscriber

6:39

to her newsletter,

6:41

The Ann Friedman Weekly, which I also highly

6:44

recommend. I mean seriously, ants,

6:47

ants got at all? And that's why we were both excited,

6:50

also a little nervous slash naushs to

6:53

talk to her in this airbnb

6:55

that we had rented in Silver Lake, which

6:57

was smaller than we thought it was going to

6:59

be and also under construction.

7:02

So thank you for being a good sport and

7:05

and taking the time to talk to us, because obviously

7:07

she's a busy woman and it was just a

7:09

delight to pick her brain.

7:12

So is it time for us to share

7:15

our convo with Anne? Yeah, I'm like

7:17

steel clapping with excitement. Let's roll

7:19

it and the two thinks that we started

7:22

with a question that we have shamelessly

7:24

borrowed from another fabulous podcast you should

7:26

listen to, called Another round Um

7:29

host Heaven and Tracy always asked their guests

7:32

what do you do and why? So we

7:35

asked and and this is what she had

7:37

to say.

7:42

Both of those things have changed a lot

7:44

over the years. So right at this second,

7:47

what do I do? So? I write things

7:50

and I report things. So I asked

7:52

questions and I try to answer questions,

7:55

UM. And I also have this podcast,

7:58

not this particular podcast, a different podcast

8:01

UM where I think I usually

8:05

UM, A lot of the things I work on come from

8:07

some point of conflict or confusion

8:09

within myself. It's like kind of selfish

8:11

where I'm like, I don't know if I feel about that, or I

8:13

don't know what we should do about that, UM,

8:16

or things that friends expressed to me. They

8:18

start from a pretty personal place. UM.

8:21

But I also think I have some broader

8:23

goals and what I do, which is UM.

8:26

One of them is just kind of saying, like, you're not crazy.

8:28

The system is really rigged UM.

8:31

Maybe not totally against you, but like set

8:33

up in a certain way and trying to illuminate some

8:36

of our inherited But

8:38

yeah, so I tried to I ask questions and I answer

8:41

questions, and I talk about questions. That's kind of how

8:43

I think about it. Right now, I

8:45

have to ask and I know you've answered

8:47

this in your fa ques on your website, but I

8:49

have to ask you about lady swagger and

8:52

where it came from, and what is behind

8:54

the lady swagger ethos and how can how

8:57

can other ladies get some lady swagger? I

8:59

think it's an inherent trait and

9:01

in most people have identified ladies. I'll

9:03

just say that, UM, I don't

9:05

know, it's not a real thing. It's kind of a made

9:07

up thing, I guess I UM. I wrote

9:11

several years ago, like probably a little more than five

9:13

years ago, there were a series of articles

9:16

that were about men doing cool stuff

9:18

in media. There was there was there

9:20

were some about like dudes who had started out

9:22

as bloggers growing up and getting cool jobs.

9:24

And then there were some about prestigious

9:26

magazines that all had young male editors

9:29

they referred to douditors. Um.

9:32

And it just it just seemed like at the time this was

9:34

this was two thousand ten,

9:36

two thousand eleven, that there was just

9:38

this like spate of trend coverage

9:41

of like men are doing things. Men they

9:43

got it going on like in media. It was

9:45

really annoying. So I wrote, I

9:48

wrote some parody articles that were sort

9:50

of, you know, mocking that

9:53

micro trend, but also highlighting work

9:55

that women were doing. And one of the um

9:58

one of the articles about men who contained line where

10:00

they described one of these duditors as having a

10:02

kind of low maintenance swagger and

10:05

or something like that. And so and I when I flipped,

10:07

when I reversed the genders to write the parody.

10:10

I wrote it as low maintenance lady swagger

10:12

to describe a woman. I can't remember

10:14

if it was me or another woman I was writing about. UM,

10:18

I don't really know how it like how it sort of became.

10:20

And then I used it as the tagline on

10:22

my tumbler for a long time and then UM,

10:26

I don't know. And then and then when it became and I

10:28

incorporated last year, um,

10:31

and there was this question of like, you know, am

10:33

I just an Friedman Ink

10:35

or whatever? And or do I want a different name?

10:38

It's like I kind of would like a credit card this says

10:40

lady swagger, So

10:43

I have that. I did that. UM.

10:45

I consulted a lawyer friend and I was like, is there any

10:47

reason why I shouldn't have this as my escort

10:51

name? She goes, well, you'll probably

10:53

only use it in tax dealings with the U. S. Government.

10:55

So if you could stand up in court and have the US government

10:57

address he was Lady Swagger, Inc. And I was like in I

11:00

was going out with the paperwork before she was done,

11:02

like just after her advice had filled the g chat

11:04

windows, like typing it on her. So yeah,

11:07

that's a very long answer to say that. I kind of,

11:09

Um, it was not born of like me

11:11

inventing a term. It was a response to something.

11:14

But the the term to

11:16

me just kind of means that, like, you are confident,

11:18

but you're not, like, guess what, I'm so confident, Like

11:21

you know, you don't have to talk about it, and you don't have to like

11:23

make other women feel like they're less put

11:26

together than you to sort of be aware

11:28

that you have it going on. I guess

11:30

because of how I see it now, you said,

11:33

um at the beginning of your answer, like

11:35

people who identify as ladies,

11:38

Like, how would you define a lady? Especially

11:40

these days? I think it's like if you if you identify

11:43

with that term, it's great. I mean I know plenty of women

11:45

who, like some of whom identify

11:48

on the more butsch end of the spectrum who

11:50

would be like, I'm definitely a woman, but I don't call

11:52

myself a lady. Um. I think it

11:54

sort of has like a fami identity connotation.

11:57

Um, I also use that identify us, so

11:59

it's clear that I'm talking about

12:02

any person who might identify that way.

12:05

Um. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,

12:07

if there's like a lady, I don't know a lady

12:10

ETOs because we've talked. We did a whole podcast

12:12

Hey ladies, like kind of the reclamation

12:14

of the term and how um for second

12:16

way feminists, they were like yeah,

12:20

yeah, and then it just made something different because

12:22

a lot of people woman sounds like their moms,

12:25

and girl is too young? Is

12:28

clinical? Yeah, females clinical or you're

12:30

talking about like horses or dogs or something,

12:33

and yeah, ladies seems to be not

12:36

not quite ironic because

12:38

people really do embrace it, but almost like

12:40

yeah, it's just it's a it's a like almost

12:42

a term of endearment for my my lady

12:45

friends. Yeah, I mean I use it. It's it Actually

12:47

I like to use it as a modifier instead

12:49

of females, so instead of like female swag

12:52

or whatever. But I my grandma always has

12:54

gals she's like, how those gals are running around with? And

12:56

I'm like, which girls have run around with a lot of girls? Um?

12:58

I like gals a lot too, as as

13:00

sort of something that doesn't feel quite so formal

13:03

as to say woman. I also like women.

13:05

I don't know, I don't really, I don't just remain My

13:08

mom is you know, she doesn't want me

13:10

to say, but she's in her late sixties and she

13:12

calls herself and all of her friends girls. You

13:15

know, why doesn't she want you to say? I

13:17

think it's like, I don't know, she's obviously like

13:19

your she's she's she's I don't

13:21

know. It's hard to deny you've been around a certain number

13:23

of decades and you have a children, right, Like

13:25

why why does it matter if you're like fifty

13:28

nine or sixty four or

13:30

like, yeah, I don't know. It could be the

13:32

South Georgia thing, you know. Yeah,

13:34

I didn't know how old my mom was

13:36

until um I was a

13:39

teenager because I finally

13:41

like snuck into her purse and

13:43

looked at her. She wouldn't tell you so

13:45

much. She wouldn't tell me at least

13:48

even still, and even still, she's really

13:50

weird now it's passed along to grandkids.

13:53

Where she turned seventy

13:56

last year and she was like, do not

13:58

tell your nieces and nephew is it's like

14:00

what you looked great for seventy

14:03

should be pumped. That's crazy.

14:06

I would say that, oh, you know, kids are san notorious

14:08

for judging you. But my niece actually put

14:11

me through the ring or questioning me as to why I did not

14:13

have children? How old are you? What job

14:16

do you have? And why don't you have children? I

14:18

was like, you are seven? Do

14:20

were you? Like, let's have a conversation. Why are you

14:22

interested in I have children? Do you have children?

14:25

Did she ask him about the job? First? She

14:28

asked if I was in school? She asked him I had

14:30

a job, and then she's

14:32

just like going through the life stages. You know, Yeah,

14:37

she knew I wasn't married, although I think

14:39

she finds it problematic that I'm

14:41

at this stage and I do have a job,

14:44

but I'm not married yet. She's identity. That's

14:46

basically the cover of dozens of like Newsweek

14:49

millennial trend stories. You know, she's just really

14:51

summed it up there with the confusion. Yeah,

14:56

well, you're a real model for her. She's

14:59

gonna get to she's gonna get to an age where she has a

15:01

job and doesn't have kids and be like, oh, yeah, it's

15:05

so weird. It's weird for other reasons,

15:07

but not that sure. Yeah, apparently

15:09

my my nephews were worried about me for

15:11

a really long time before I

15:13

got engaged. Just my sister informed me. It

15:16

was like, cool, how are they?

15:18

They were like ten, But yeah,

15:21

this is treasure wow

15:24

from children. But back to you,

15:26

and I've never had

15:28

a child questioned my empty womb. It's

15:32

like it makes you want to like, who

15:35

where are they absorbing like these messages?

15:37

I mean everywhere, that's true. But

15:40

yeah, so away

15:42

from away from our empty wounds. We

15:46

didn't want to ask you about the aspect of self

15:48

promotion as like, you know, Lady

15:50

swagger ink um

15:53

kind of how how you approach

15:55

that and your feelings around it. You know, you wrote

15:58

the piece in New Republic about self

16:00

branding and how kind of

16:02

like awkward and bizarre that is. Yeah,

16:05

I don't really know. I mean, I guess part of it

16:07

is, um that if

16:09

I write something that I'm proud of, I want people

16:12

to read it. It's on a basic level of like

16:14

I worked hard for this in the same way, UM,

16:17

in the same way I am interested in like hearing about

16:19

my friend's work and supporting it

16:21

when I can. UM,

16:24

I don't really have I swear

16:26

to God honestly, like a negative flip side of

16:28

that, where I'm like, oh, Caroline

16:31

is my friend, but she hasn't shared any of

16:33

the last five articles that you know. I don't

16:35

really keep tabs on it that way, but I guess

16:37

I tend to think that people who

16:40

I know will want to know when I'm proud of

16:42

something that I've done. So that's like on a basic

16:44

level. UM. I also think

16:46

that as a freelancer, if you are

16:48

not talking about the work that you're doing,

16:51

it makes it harder to get more work. So

16:54

you know, there is I guess you

16:56

can call it self promotion, but part

16:58

of it is also because

17:01

my work is scattered across so many different outlets,

17:04

I'm sort of the one place you can get at all. It's

17:06

like, you know that if I want an editor

17:08

to know what I'm all about and to assign me great

17:10

work, I want them to be able

17:12

to come to a website where I've cataloged all

17:15

of it or come to my Twitter feed and see what I'm thinking

17:17

about lately, and um,

17:19

and that's that's different than just me

17:21

fire hosing what I've made out into the world.

17:23

It's also me you

17:25

know, tweeting about things I'm thinking about, or

17:28

or using using my

17:31

website to high highlight other work that I'm doing.

17:33

And so I don't know. I guess

17:35

I think of it as like just being

17:38

a part of public spaces on the Internet.

17:40

And some of that is sharing what I've made, and some of that's sharing

17:42

what other people have made, and some of that is a lot of

17:44

that is consuming what other people have made.

17:47

It's not I don't know, and and um,

17:49

some of the more concrete questions

17:51

about that that I wrote about in the article for The

17:53

New Republic, which um

17:56

are which sort of get into details of how

17:58

you talk about yourself. You

18:00

know, it's stuff that is like, oh, okay, if

18:02

I incorporate as Lady Swagger, am I going to

18:04

make it an email address and make it a public thing or

18:06

is it just in the documents in hidden way? And

18:09

you know the answer to that is like, I think it's fun. So

18:11

it's you know, semi public. I guess

18:13

it's like I I bought the domain for sure, because like, don't

18:16

ever create a corporation and don't buy the domain name.

18:18

There's anything. My friend a Mina has taught

18:20

me, always buy the domain always.

18:23

UM, So yeah, I don't know. It gets

18:25

a little thornier when you start to think about questions

18:27

of like what what am

18:30

Who am I as a brand versus who am

18:32

I as a human? You're sitting in the room with um,

18:34

and frankly I don't usually go that far

18:36

down that path. It's but but on

18:39

questions of pure promotion, I think usually

18:41

people are overthinking it or being super weird if

18:43

they think it's only promotion. It's like usually

18:45

just being on social media and in

18:48

a holistic way. So it sounds

18:50

like there's not much conflict for you

18:52

between the line of authenticity

18:55

and the fakeer of just being like, oh, I'm

18:57

just like almost like a used car sales and just like

18:59

throwing my work out there. I don't ever

19:01

feel like that. And if I write things that I'm not that

19:03

excited about, I don't push them very hard

19:05

or I don't share them. You know, they're sort of the easy,

19:08

like whatever publication I write it

19:10

for, we'll tweet it and then I can just retweet it and go

19:12

about my day. I don't really make an extra effort

19:14

to put it out into the world.

19:17

I mean, I there are definitely things

19:19

that I mean, I'm not like, Okay, time to get back

19:21

on the self promotion treadmill, like every more you

19:23

know it's it doesn't it doesn't feel it

19:25

doesn't feel like that. And also I like,

19:28

you know, I my my column this week, for example,

19:31

UM is something I've been thinking about writing for

19:33

a long time, and so when I finally wrote

19:35

it, I'm interested in hearing what other

19:38

people are saying about it. And there there have been a couple

19:40

of points where I'm just like, oh, I wish I could go back

19:42

and revise and include these like three great

19:44

things that people said about it. And you know, I wouldn't

19:46

have that feedback if I were not, you

19:49

know, pushing it up into the world. I

19:51

mean, yes, like the New York magazine

19:53

does some of that, but if I were not interacting with the people who

19:55

were talking about it, I would miss out on this whole dimension

19:57

of the topic. So it's the topic I

20:00

wrote about, this idea of UM

20:02

finding yourself in a in a role at work,

20:05

whether it's because it's part of your explicit job

20:07

description, or whether it's because

20:09

that's just kind of like where you end up falling

20:11

in the office ecosystem of being the

20:13

person who always says no to everything. So

20:15

like you're in a meeting and someone's like, yeah, it wouldn't it be

20:18

great if we just like set up a carnival

20:20

outside and started selling tickets to that,

20:22

and that's how we plugged our budget deficit. And

20:24

you know, you're the one who's like, well, I don't know if you're owned

20:26

for that, and like you know, like you find

20:29

yourself, you know, because of kind

20:32

of yeah, but I don't, I don't know. It's sort

20:34

of about how like, um, how that

20:36

role is sort of invisible administrative

20:39

work that often gets assigned to women

20:42

in part because of, um,

20:44

the actual roles they tend to occupy, but also

20:46

sometimes because like you know,

20:48

you could be sitting That definitely happened to me where I've

20:50

been the only woman in a room with a lot of

20:52

men who are presumably coequal

20:54

to me in terms of the office or

20:57

chart, but I'm the one taking notes

20:59

from the meeting. And then when when you're the one taking notes

21:01

a friend of mine pointing this out. You know, you're

21:04

the one who's like, oh, this doesn't head up or

21:07

or whatever. And so you're the one who's sort of like, hey,

21:09

hey, guys, actually this is brilliant idea that

21:11

you're all really excited about. Right now, it's

21:13

not gonna work for this reason. And then it's just want

21:15

want anyway. So um and that can be

21:17

kind of exhausting saying saying no a

21:20

lot. There Historically a lot of ways

21:22

women are forced or have been expected

21:25

to say no in like the sexual realm, or

21:27

like moderating what they're supposed to be eating,

21:29

or like, you know, like just think about everything a woman's magazine

21:31

has ever told you about anything like classically. Um

21:35

and and I was just talking about how that happens

21:37

at work, and so yeah, and so there

21:39

there have been comments for women who are

21:43

you know, have found themselves in that role. Someone said,

21:45

yeah, it's like Wendy and the Lost Boys, you

21:47

know, all over again. I was like, I don't even think to mention Peter

21:50

Pan and the Lost Boys. You're so right, like Peter

21:52

Pan is like obviously a trope of young

21:54

male Brooklyn Nights. But I hadn't really

21:56

thought about, Like yeah, it's like totally Wendy and the

21:58

Lost Boys. So just like little gems

22:00

like that where I'm like, okay, well, I

22:02

mean I might not revisit this topic next week,

22:04

but if I ever do revisit it, that's just like the

22:07

perfect little metaphor so

22:10

that, yeah, I mean,

22:12

how can how

22:15

or should like how can women escape those sort

22:17

of office expectations like can

22:20

they? Should they? Okay, well, here's

22:22

something else someone said to me, which I did not even

22:24

think to include in the article. Is like numbers,

22:27

you know, if there are if there are

22:29

more than, um,

22:31

you know, one woman in that meeting, chances

22:33

are that there's not

22:35

one person always expected to take notes, and that the

22:37

person is always you because you're the woman. You know. Diversity

22:40

is something that can can help with us a little bit.

22:42

Um. I also think that like the way

22:45

um right now, a

22:47

lot of roles are

22:49

assigned in the office um due to

22:51

just like ingrain sexism,

22:54

men have a lot more freedom to be like, you know,

22:56

I have the year of the CEO, like let me

22:58

hit you with this crazy idea or whatever.

23:00

You know. I mean, like a lot of the way networks work

23:02

right now, disadvantage women, um,

23:05

and so having stronger

23:07

networks of women first of all, like women

23:10

truly supporting each other at work, um,

23:12

but also just having in sheer

23:14

numbers, more women in leadership roles. I mean,

23:16

the one of the points that I made here is like, yeah, yeah,

23:19

we know that like of you

23:21

know, secretarial and administrative assistant

23:23

positions them or women that's

23:25

like Department of Women,

23:28

that's Department of Labor Statistics. That's not

23:31

like feminist, like you

23:33

know, whatever perception. But but one of the

23:35

things about this being the no woman is that

23:37

they're frequently higher on in

23:40

sort of a leadership role, which is something that I experienced.

23:42

I was like, oh, yeah, I'm not the secretary, but I'm still

23:44

the one. And so I

23:46

don't even remember what the question was and why

23:48

I was talking about the distinction, but I do think

23:50

that there's something about diversity and strengthen

23:52

numbers and just general women's advancement

23:55

helping to make this less

23:57

of a phenomenon. Yeah, I was a question

24:00

of like women resisting that

24:02

role doing it, but it's an important

24:05

role. I mean, that's what I couldn't decide either. You know, it's

24:07

obviously a valuable role, like we don't

24:09

want to set up a card val outside like that would

24:11

be a waste of our budget, like we couldn't get the

24:13

permits whatever. You know what I mean, It's like someone has

24:15

to be the one to say it, and ultimately those rules

24:17

are really valuable. It's just a question

24:20

of do you feel like you

24:22

know it always false to you to be the one

24:24

to call that out. I mean, it's tough. I don't I don't have

24:27

the answer. Do you feel comfortable saying

24:29

guys, this is not gonna work? And do other

24:31

people respect you for it? And if they don't,

24:33

is it because of your gender or is it just because

24:36

they just want to put up a freaking card vrole? Or

24:38

do you say, guys, this is not going to work because you

24:40

know you're going to be stuck like cleaning

24:42

up after it when it doesn't. You know what I mean?

24:45

I think that that was something that I

24:47

ran up against um in my

24:49

last job, is that I had I had bosses

24:51

who would be like, yeah, it wouldn't it be awesome? And

24:53

then yeah, go make it happen, and I

24:55

was my my choices were tell

24:58

them in the moment, no, it can't happen. For

25:00

these really you know, not fun

25:03

reasons, or you

25:05

know, try to make it happen on air, quoting you can't

25:07

see me on the podcast, try to make it happen

25:09

and then fail through action and then be like, well,

25:11

you know, either way, I'm wasting my time and it's annoying

25:14

and I don't know. I mean, I think that the fundamental

25:16

problem is probably just the male ego, and like we're

25:18

all working to solve that every day. So women

25:21

are working very hard to solve some that are also

25:23

working. Some men are also working absolutely

25:26

Like I think we just send up the podcast. But

25:28

speaking of women in the office and

25:31

also at large, UM, we wanted to talk to you

25:33

about this whole concept of the female voice

25:35

because you have been interviewed

25:37

a lot and talked a lot about this

25:39

whole trend of

25:42

women being policed for their speech

25:44

of um, you know, stop saying

25:47

sorry, stop saying just you know, the whole

25:49

um. Google extension that will

25:51

empower your email and

25:54

curious to know your thoughts on that because

25:56

that's also something that you've talked about on the podcast

25:58

too. Yeah, we get a lot of

26:00

mail from people who say,

26:04

you know, I take you so much more seriously, if you didn't say

26:06

like every third word. Do you guys

26:08

get that mail too? Not

26:10

as much, but um we'll

26:12

we'll get it with what you used

26:14

to get. She used to get letters

26:17

like right when I came on the podcast using

26:19

the word like of course um uh. Used

26:22

to get letters from people saying you've got to stop saying

26:24

if you will. Oh yeah. It was the weirdest

26:26

thing because that's not even a traditional but

26:28

we do. We do get dinged for

26:31

like minus um

26:34

as I went through like um

26:37

just like an exercise and almost masochism,

26:40

and went to some a bunch of iTunes

26:42

comments and I don't do

26:44

that. Don't do that. It's for the purpose

26:47

of an essay I was writing, and so

26:49

I was looking at them from like I

26:51

wanted the very worst, and a

26:53

lot of them were complaining about

26:56

these these accents, fake

26:58

accents that I will slip into okay

27:00

for the records. Great voices, and

27:02

I as her cred as love then and her friend in

27:05

life. I love her voices. Yeah, so

27:07

that but that's like that's my um

27:09

my life. But it's long anyway,

27:12

short answer, real long. Yes, we get

27:15

our voices right, So my

27:17

view on all kinds of verbal

27:19

ticks, whether they're used by men or women, is

27:21

that it's great to pay attention to how you talk and

27:23

why. And I think sometimes when

27:26

I'm nervous, I use more of them. I mean, I'm a

27:28

human being. We all tend to do that, and

27:30

so it can be nice to be aware of that

27:32

is a thing. Oh I'm saying like a lot. Maybe

27:34

it means I'm nervous right now or you know, and just

27:37

self on a level of self awareness. I don't

27:39

think it's bad to think about the filler

27:41

words you use and the way to speak. UM.

27:44

What I do have a problem with is the

27:46

implication that if women just strip

27:48

certain phrases or certain constructions

27:51

or certain words from their emails, that they will magically

27:54

be taken more seriously um

27:56

for the content of what they're saying, And

27:59

that I think is really misguided. It's like

28:01

it's sort of like saying every

28:04

woman has done the thing where you're like, I would not wear that

28:06

to the office, or I would not wear that to a professional

28:08

event. You know, everybody judges, um,

28:11

but you know, and where when would

28:13

you argue that, Like if you were dressed in a certain way,

28:15

you shouldn't be heard or you shouldn't be taken

28:17

to you know what I mean, there's sort of and so I think that the

28:20

same thing kind of applies, Like think about

28:22

you know, how you are perceived for how you're talking,

28:24

Like consider it. Maybe you don't

28:27

want to use the same um little

28:29

verbal crutch that you that you tend

28:31

to fall into just for clarity of communication.

28:34

But you know what, like you get nervous, you also

28:36

want to express yourself authentically the way you talk

28:38

to your friends. And I think that a lot of

28:40

the advice on this front is

28:43

sort of adding to a long list of women

28:45

that if things women are already asked to consider

28:48

when they present themselves to the world. And

28:51

it would probably be a lot better if we were all just

28:53

a little calmer about that, and people

28:56

who are on the listening end of it mediated

28:58

their own biases about what it says about

29:00

the intelligence of women who are speaking. So

29:02

the speaker maybe focus on confidence

29:05

and feeling comfortable, yeah, or just take

29:07

a breath in a pause. I mean, I think, um,

29:10

I definitely

29:12

say like quite a bit. I say it more

29:15

often when I'm trying to figure out exactly how I

29:17

feel about something. Or what I want to say about it,

29:19

um, And so for me, it's,

29:21

oh, yeah, maybe I should just slow down a little. I'm

29:23

a fairly fast talker. Maybe I should just pause

29:26

right now instead of trying to like ramble

29:29

through it um. Which doesn't mean that I don't

29:31

think you should take me seriously. If if I decided

29:33

to say like a bunch of times instead, I

29:35

don't know. That's yeah. So if you're if you're if

29:37

you're the speaker, maybe just notice

29:40

when you're doing it and decide

29:42

if it really is a problem or if it's someone else's problem.

29:44

Chances are it someone else's problem. And if you're

29:46

a listener, um, get

29:48

over it. Yeah I was. I was

29:50

fist pumping in my bathroom

29:52

when I was listening to Call Your

29:54

Girlfriend episode. When you all read

29:57

the letter from the

29:59

Australian Femine, it's basically saying like, I

30:01

love you guys even more if or

30:03

you're undercutting your authority

30:05

with all of the verbal um

30:07

ad libs and Amina like

30:10

having none of it. And I

30:12

was like, she's saying everything that I wish

30:14

to care like could say sometimes

30:16

because and it was great to hear because

30:19

yeah, well it's really it's actually really difficult

30:22

because you know, for example, I don't

30:24

think that that one listener, I mean

30:26

she's a stand in for a lot of mail that we get,

30:29

And so I do feel bad sometimes. Or people will

30:31

tweet things at us that will just make us. I

30:33

rate, like you know where where where

30:36

you don't really want to lay

30:39

into one person because I understand

30:41

that you are one person you don't deserve.

30:43

We have a bigger platform than you do, like in this situation,

30:46

her sending us a letter and us calling it out on

30:48

the air like we're the big fish, right. But

30:51

um, when it becomes a pattern, or when

30:53

you know, when it's sort of a perfect distillation

30:55

of a lot of the mail you get or a lot of the things

30:58

people imply about would

31:00

make your podcast better, Um,

31:02

that's when it just it does

31:04

hit a little bit of a tipping point sometimes. So

31:07

I would also encourage people to just

31:09

think about how you must sound, whoever you

31:11

are, male or female, old or young, how

31:13

you must sound talking to your friends. And

31:16

you shouldn't necessarily expect like

31:19

NPR style PBS

31:21

delivery just

31:24

because it's a podcast.

31:26

Well, and I think that people I mean to be

31:28

totally honest The thing that has

31:31

made our podcast well received

31:34

is the fact that it is conversational in a real

31:36

way. It's not like, hey, sister, how

31:38

is it going? Like you know what I mean, there's

31:40

not it's obviously we just talked to each other the way

31:43

we talked to each other, and so you know, um,

31:45

and this is what I'm sort of getting at. Yeah, it makes sense

31:48

to think about how

31:50

we're using words, because we do want to express

31:52

ourselves clearly on the podcast, but not at

31:54

the expense of the conversational

31:56

tone that makes it great, an authenticity and how

31:58

you actually would want to each other. Yeah.

32:00

Absolutely. And the truth is, I don't think

32:03

women sound stupid when they say like, so

32:06

I don't feel bad about saying it. Yeah,

32:09

And I mean truth is, I've heard

32:11

plenty of guys say it. This is not completely

32:14

It's not as if like is the sole providence

32:16

of women. Women just exist in the world of

32:18

like. Yeah.

32:20

And I interviewed a bunch of linguists for the article

32:22

that I wrote about this, and they were saying that,

32:25

yeah, men have just as many like

32:27

ticks, used just as many filler words

32:29

as women tend to. It is honestly

32:31

only advice levied at women that

32:34

that is, it's like this false hope

32:36

for being taken more seriously, if you can only stop

32:38

saying like if you could only like, you know, wear

32:40

a shirt that was slightly higher cut or whatever,

32:43

if you could only like, you know, drink

32:45

with the dudes that you know, whatever. I don't know what

32:47

it is like whatever dumb thing that people say is

32:49

not sexism that is keeping women down

32:52

there, you know, it's just like another one on

32:54

the laundry list. Yeah, well,

32:56

speaking of calling your girlfriend to take it back

32:58

a couple of steps. Um,

33:00

we had read that it sort of started

33:03

a little bit on a lark at the suggestion

33:05

of your producer and you and I mean it also

33:07

wanting to like experiment with audio

33:09

formats, and so I was kind of wondering why why

33:12

you even wanted to experiment to begin with. Um,

33:15

I don't know, we're both we both just I

33:17

mean, this is gonna sound this is so, this is so cheesy.

33:20

We're both like trying new things. But

33:22

for real though, so our our producer, Gina

33:25

is is really brilliant, and

33:27

at a certain point, when a smart person

33:29

who is really skilled in a certain area says,

33:31

I think you guys would be good at this, and I want to work

33:33

with you. You have to be a fool to

33:36

just keep saying no um.

33:38

And so I think once we decided what we wanted

33:40

to call it, then it was over. We kind of we kind

33:42

of sort of talked about it for a while, and she she

33:44

poked us about it and suggested suggested

33:47

it for a while. But when we decided

33:49

that we wanted to call it that, and we were like, oh yeah, and then it could

33:51

just be a call between us. We wouldn't even have to like, you

33:53

know, set it up, set up a format.

33:55

We could just call each other. That's when we're

33:58

like, okay, we can actually do this. Well,

34:00

what have you guys? I'm really interested to know what

34:03

you guys have learned about each other, maybe

34:06

that you wouldn't have figured out if you guys

34:08

were just having a drink somewhere or a cup of coffee

34:10

somewhere, Like you specifically uncovered

34:12

something about your friend because you have

34:15

to have these conversations in this particular format.

34:18

Yeah, it's weird. It's it's actually it's

34:20

not that it's deepened our friendship because

34:23

if you listen, we don't really get personal

34:25

I mean, we are, we are personable, but you know,

34:27

we don't really talk about you don't

34:29

really know who each of us is sleeping with or

34:32

like whether what's going on in terms of like

34:34

are we happy, are we sad? Is it a tough time? Is

34:36

it a fun time for us? You know that that stuff is

34:38

like only really the surface level

34:40

personal details make it out. So I wouldn't

34:42

say that, like, um,

34:45

the content of what we talk about has

34:48

led us to know each other better. I do

34:50

think that the thing is, and I'm

34:52

sure you guys have experienced this too, is we're

34:54

business partners now, you know, I mean

34:56

we definitely it is. It is. It

34:59

is you know, financially speaking, not really

35:01

business yet, but in terms of you know,

35:03

we we have a regular thing

35:05

that we're committed to doing together, and they're like increasing

35:08

amounts of responsibility to have to

35:10

to do with that. And so I think

35:12

that I'm learning about both Amina

35:15

and Gina as like coworkers, and you know what, they're

35:17

great coworkers. If everyone I've

35:19

ever worked with was as great a coworker as they

35:21

are, we are like you know, our Google

35:24

Dot game is like so tight and

35:26

and you know, and we are all really

35:29

on top of it. I think that I've done a lot of passion

35:31

side projects where it can be hard to

35:33

wrangle everyone involved, and

35:36

um, and we're just like, we're there. If we

35:38

make a meeting, we're there. If someone says that they're

35:40

going to follow up on something, of

35:43

the time, they follow up on it and make it happen.

35:45

And so I think that a lot of what I've learned is just

35:47

this this not so much as

35:50

a friend, but like this whole other dimension

35:52

of people who I already really liked and respected,

35:55

and that's been cool. I'm wondering, um,

35:57

since you all here from so many air

36:00

quotes, baby feminists, if

36:02

there are um certain

36:04

themes to the questions and quandaries

36:08

that they ask you all, or just like

36:10

topics that especially resume, A

36:12

lot of them are based on things

36:15

that we've already talked about on the show,

36:17

So you know, it'll be someone has a workplace

36:19

dilemma or um,

36:21

you know, we get questions about friendship

36:23

a lot. I had a falling out with a friend of mine,

36:26

or we're not as close as we used to be, or I just moved

36:28

somewhere. How do I make new friends? A lot of a

36:30

lot of them kind of deal with friendship as

36:32

a topic. But there's there's a strain.

36:35

There's sort of a strain of the questions we get that are

36:37

just like Ann and Amina fix my life, like

36:40

like a'm very like like own network

36:42

show, Time of Time situation

36:45

um where no, we get a lot and

36:47

and um that are like I

36:49

can sort of give you the outlines, like, hey

36:52

Anna, Amina, I've been listening to the show for a while.

36:54

It seems weird to write you this email, but you know,

36:56

like there's always a bunch of caveats and then

36:58

it's like I'm nice tew

37:01

three definitely in that age range.

37:04

Um, what am I supposed to do with my life?

37:06

Like, you know, I don't know who I'm supposed to be dating?

37:09

Men kind of suck. Am I even supposed to be dating? Then?

37:11

What should my major b? I don't feel passionate about anything,

37:13

but I have so much to give the world. But I am passionate,

37:16

you know. I mean they're kind of like this everything

37:19

question um, and

37:21

we we try. You know, I'm trying to remember right

37:23

now we answered one of them and I can't

37:25

remember if if it was like a microphone

37:28

malfunction and we lost the answer or if it

37:30

was too long and it ended up getting cut

37:32

and we'll end up appearing in a future episode,

37:34

but we took one of them.

37:37

Um. And you know, interestingly, that's like a lot

37:39

of the mail from young

37:41

women that I get to my personal account

37:43

as well. It's just kind of this general everything

37:46

seems to suck? What do I do? And I'm just

37:48

like, yeah, everything just sucks when you're at age, Like I always

37:50

just right, like, it just sucks to be to

37:53

be that age. It's really hard.

37:55

It's like everything is up in the air and you have no money

37:57

and you know, it's it's really hard

37:59

to like, there's the older

38:01

you get, the more the more the steps behind you

38:04

start to look like they were a dedicated path, you

38:06

know. And and

38:08

you know, when when you haven't had that many steps

38:10

to put behind you yet, it can be hard to sort of look back

38:12

and be like, okay, like maybe now I can look forward

38:14

based on where I've been. UM. So I

38:16

just tried to sort of send that um

38:20

and uh. And I also try to

38:22

describe, like, you know, let

38:24

me tell you about the disaster show

38:26

that was my life when I was twenty two. You know what

38:28

I mean just like which is which is not to say

38:30

which is which is only a reminder that um

38:34

it's yeah, it's it's

38:36

easy to see this stuff in

38:39

in retrospect, not so much at

38:41

the time. Yeah, so I don't know that's that's

38:43

like a theme that is real.

38:45

Yeah. We get a lot of really great

38:48

feedback from listeners whenever we share

38:50

our screw up the

38:53

things that we struggled with now or

38:55

when we were younger, because a lot of people just love to

38:57

hear like, oh, it's so important. People

39:00

that like I listened to my ear earbuds

39:02

that I think are like so important because I have a podcast,

39:04

Like oh, they struggled with that too. They

39:06

have pimples too, or they like didn't know what they wanted

39:09

to major. I have this weird patch of dry skin from

39:11

my eyebrows right now that I'm just like, am I molting?

39:13

Like what is going on? I shouldn't have winter skin.

39:15

It's it doesn't even get cold. Yeah, exactly. Not

39:18

perfect. We can be back from people because

39:20

I think that people

39:23

are so refreshed and pleasantly

39:25

surprised when they are presented with authenticity,

39:28

and I think that our feedback shows that

39:30

and I mean that makes me curious,

39:32

like, what, what do you guys get

39:35

super responses too? Is there something that you talk

39:37

about in particular or a tone or a theme

39:39

or overarching topic that people

39:42

just super respond to. Yeah, I think

39:44

that, Well, we get we get lots

39:46

of mail from people that basically thanks us

39:48

for talking about electoral politics

39:50

and the Kardashians or like, you know, essentially

39:53

recognizing that, um

39:55

that women slash

39:58

people can be interested in all

40:00

these variety of things at once. UM,

40:03

So that that's sort of one thing. UM.

40:05

Personal stories definitely get get emails.

40:08

UM when we when we talk about we were

40:10

talking about anything medical, people totally

40:13

want to tell us well, here's what I'm putting in my vagama

40:15

or that's not what my doctor told me or

40:18

whatever. You know, like there's the medical stuff.

40:20

And in part because we are openly

40:22

and SENDI deliberately kind of ignorant, we're

40:24

like, let me ask Google m D what this

40:27

problem is or whatever. You know, doctors

40:29

write us and they're like, UM, but

40:34

and then and then sometimes like um,

40:36

you know, there will be there will be a

40:38

segment that UM

40:41

that speaks to something that's happening

40:43

in the news in a slightly more nuanced

40:45

way, or because we can approach it conversationally.

40:47

We had the journalist Rebecca Traster on

40:50

who's a friend and whose personal friend of both of ours, and

40:52

it's awesome. Um. She

40:55

talked a little bit about like Hillary

40:58

and Bernie and like her conflicting

41:00

feelings about both of those, like camps

41:03

and um. And we got mail from

41:05

a lot of people who were like, oh, yeah, like that

41:07

I support insert Bernie or insert

41:10

Hillary or whoever, and that put it in a new light

41:12

for me. We got an email from a friend of ours who

41:14

works in politics and is like a

41:17

hardcore Hillary hater who

41:19

was like, you really made me rethink not how

41:22

I feel about her, but how I respond to her publicly,

41:24

and like how what the narrative is and like

41:27

that was really cool. Um. So sometimes

41:29

it is like about the more sort of substantive serious

41:31

stuff, not so much the personal anecdotes.

41:34

Um. But yeah, there's really a range and

41:36

and mostly it's like, you know, we'll mention

41:38

something like a weird aside and someone will be like, I'm

41:41

also from that part of iowan have a mole on

41:43

the right blood sheet or whatever, you know what I

41:45

mean. Like people, people are really looking to identify

41:48

with like whatever you know, which

41:50

is cool, which is really cool. It's like you know when

41:52

when you when you stack up all of like my

41:55

life experience in demographic details and all

41:57

of Amina's like that. We actually probably overlap

41:59

with a lot of women, so you can imagine the mail

42:02

we get like that. Well,

42:10

Caroline, that seems like the perfect

42:13

transition point back into the stuff

42:15

I never told you studio for our

42:17

listener mail. But of course first we

42:19

want to thank An again so much

42:22

for talking to us and even

42:24

though she wasn't there, Amina,

42:26

thank you too. Thank you for making call

42:28

your girlfriend with and Friedman.

42:31

Um. Y'all need to go right now

42:33

to call your girlfriend dot com and or

42:36

and Friedman dot com and get

42:38

on these ladies radars or get these

42:41

ladies on your radar, or I mean if you can get

42:43

on their radar, then that's amazing too. Call

42:46

everyone, all of your girlfriend on

42:48

all the radars, listen to the podcasts. And

42:52

I know that there are a lot of call your girlfriend

42:54

and and fans listening, So

42:57

send us yell fan mail on

43:00

step at house Stuffworks dot com is our email

43:02

address. You can also tweet us at mom stub podcasts

43:05

or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple

43:07

of messages to share with you when we come right

43:09

back from a quick right, Hey,

43:15

Caroline, you know what time it is? What time?

43:17

Is that time for me to brag about my

43:19

personal website that I built with square

43:22

Space? Oh good, I hear it was

43:24

really easy. It was so easy,

43:26

Caroline, not even kidding. I don't

43:29

know how to code beyond very basic

43:31

HTML skills, and that was totally

43:34

fine because square space offers

43:36

so many intuitive tools

43:38

and beautiful designs for you

43:40

to choose from that my personal

43:42

website, Christ and Conqueror dot com looks like

43:45

maybe I hired someone or maybe I'm

43:47

just really good at building websites. Nice.

43:49

I love a good illusion me too.

43:52

So to get in on the square space action

43:54

listeners, because really, who doesn't need a website

43:57

these days? Head on over to squarespace

43:59

dot com and us a code mom stuff

44:01

for ten percent off your first

44:04

purchase, and if you sign up for a year,

44:06

you get a free domain. That's perfect.

44:08

What more can I want? Nothing, Caroline,

44:11

except maybe ten percent off your

44:13

first order at squarespace by using

44:15

the code mom stuff. And

44:17

now back to the show. Well,

44:22

I have a letter here from Myra. It is a bit of

44:24

a correction from our disability and

44:27

Sexuality episode. Myras says,

44:29

just a quick note. I also tweeted as I

44:31

was listening to your disability podcast about

44:33

a common but potentially serious error.

44:36

Learning disabilities and mental disabilities

44:38

are conflated in your podcast. That's

44:41

not a fair thing to do, and those who have learning

44:43

disabilities may well catch it and

44:45

WinCE. Learning disabilities

44:47

never involve lower or slower intelligence

44:50

or brain damage. People with learning disabilities

44:52

can be geniuses and can often be expected

44:54

to work to the same standards as non disabled

44:57

people in much more complicated tasks

44:59

than people with many mental disabilities.

45:02

I have great respect for people with Down syndrome,

45:04

for instance, and accommodating these people matters

45:07

to me, but they are not in the same category

45:09

of disability as someone with a d D or dyslexia

45:12

or Asperger syndrome, or my own learning

45:14

disability, and to imply so demeans

45:16

the potential and flexibility of what I or

45:18

anyone else with a learning disability can, with

45:21

proper accommodation, be expected to do.

45:23

Many people and even scholars, make these errors,

45:26

so it's understandable, but please take note

45:28

that the wrong language and causes problems

45:30

for people in the same way that conflating

45:32

physical and mental disabilities does.

45:35

Thanks and I love that you're dealing with this topic.

45:38

And thank you Myra. We appreciate it well.

45:40

I've got a letter here from Maya about

45:42

our episode on Anita Hill,

45:45

and she writes, thank you so much for your episodes

45:47

on the llegal history of sexual harassment and the

45:49

legal battle of Anita Hill. Her

45:52

usual. I enjoyed learning all the information

45:54

you brought to the podcast. This week, However,

45:57

I reached a new level of shocked

45:59

at how much I know about what I

46:01

didn't know As a black female

46:03

graduate student at the University of Oklahoma.

46:05

I was flabbergasted to find out

46:08

I had never heard the name Anita Hill.

46:10

It appears as legal war was great wage

46:12

at the perfect place and time to

46:15

get left out of the majority of the national

46:17

conversation on equality in the workplace.

46:19

It was long enough ago for many to stop talking

46:22

about it, but still too recent to be in

46:24

our history books. That being said,

46:26

I don't think any textbook publishing company

46:28

has the brass to include such a controversial

46:31

conversation about a current Supreme

46:33

Court judge. Though I can't wait

46:35

to see Carrie Washington take on this powerful

46:37

role, I can't help but wonder who

46:39

else have we forgotten? I can't

46:41

wait to call others into this conversation because now

46:44

that I know better, I need to do better.

46:47

Well, thank you so much, Maya, and

46:49

we are really excited to watch Gary Washington's

46:51

confirmation as well, hitting

46:54

HBO very soon. And

46:56

with that, dear listeners, you know where to email

46:58

us Mom Stuff at House of works dot com. Is

47:01

he addressed? And for links all of our social media

47:03

as well as all of our blogs, videos and

47:05

podcasts with our sources so you

47:07

can learn more about the fabulous and freedman.

47:10

Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told

47:12

You dot com

47:17

for more on this and thousands of other topics.

47:19

Is it how stuff Works dot com