0:05

Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and

0:07

welcome to stuff I've never told you a production of I Heart

0:10

Radio. Today,

0:20

we're going to talk about something that has been coming

0:22

up a lot during these are quarantine

0:24

times, which is extra

0:27

version versus intro version,

0:29

extroverts versus introverts. And

0:32

I'm sure we've all seen the

0:34

memes and jokes about being

0:36

told to stay in for quarantine

0:39

is an introverts dream apart from

0:41

the unending anxiety of

0:43

a pandemic um

0:45

and about how introverts have been preparing for

0:47

this their whole lives ha ha. Extroverts

0:51

look at you panicking about

0:53

having to stay in, and these

0:55

are definitely over simplifications.

0:57

Most of us need a healthy dose of

1:00

own time and socializing. But

1:02

we thought we would unpack some of this

1:04

and especially how it pertains to women.

1:08

So how would you

1:11

classify yourself, Samantha?

1:13

Honestly, I originally I would have said an introvert

1:16

completely, because I am absolutely

1:18

that person who gets zapped very quickly

1:20

in a crowd of people, and even before

1:23

coming in, I automatically panic

1:25

if there's more than five. So

1:27

but after this research, I think I feel

1:30

like it changed with

1:32

my age as well as with

1:35

what's happening right

1:37

now, not that my personality has changed, but

1:39

even like my understanding of my personality

1:41

is kind of changed. What about you? Interesting?

1:45

Yeah, I have to say one, I feel

1:47

very judged doing this research,

1:50

thank you. I

1:53

am definitely an extrovert. Every

1:56

I've taken the personality tests and

1:58

everyone I get like, oh yeah, by

2:00

a lot, which honestly,

2:03

I've kind of surprises even me because

2:07

I do a lot of things

2:09

that are typical introvert

2:11

traits, like when it comes to decision making.

2:13

And we'll get more into this, um

2:15

later. I am so much an introvert

2:18

and you know, you know, I love to read and like

2:20

research and stay in and I'm actually fine

2:23

being alone. I live alone. Um,

2:25

it's just that I would go out all the time. But right

2:28

there are certainly qualities that

2:30

I thought like shyness,

2:32

and shyness is very often

2:35

misunderstood to be synonymous

2:37

with introvert and I'm actually really

2:40

shy. But that it turns out

2:42

doing this research really doesn't have

2:44

anything to do with being an introvert or an

2:46

extrovert. Right, I

2:48

feel like I am definitely an I n f

2:51

P. That has always been my

2:53

thing. And so being an

2:56

introvert through and through I

2:58

have never really questioned all

3:01

of that. But you know, as you talked about being judged right

3:03

now with the research, that was definitely

3:05

like I feel little more empowered with

3:08

my communication stales right now. Yeah.

3:10

It's really funny because, um,

3:13

I remember so clearly. One

3:15

day I was driving.

3:17

I was car pooling with a bunch of our coworkers

3:19

for we UM do this big volunteer

3:21

day every year, and I was car

3:23

pooling and it was early in

3:26

the morning. I was just like, you know, bubbly talking

3:29

because it was silent, and I was trying to, you

3:31

know, have some kind of conversation

3:34

and my friend there's

3:36

like a pause and he said, so, uh,

3:39

you're a morning person, right. It's

3:42

like, oh, so maybe nobody actually

3:44

wants to talk and I'm just annoying everyone.

3:48

And I had a moment doing this of like realizing

3:51

how many times I thought I was I

3:54

don't want to say helping out, but I was like,

3:57

silence is something that I always try to fill

4:00

and perhaps somebody just

4:02

wanted Well,

4:04

I mean, to be fair, I think it's

4:06

not just the morning person is being

4:08

an extrovert. I'm a

4:10

grumpy. I'm a grumpy as morning

4:13

person, and it doesn't

4:15

necessarily have to do with my introvertedness. Is

4:17

absolutely to do the fact that I'm always tired,

4:20

as well as a fact in the morning I'm like, why,

4:23

why do things happen? What is happening?

4:25

What is to day? So, you know, I think that's

4:27

just a whole different level anyway, But yeah, it definitely

4:29

has those connotations of who's to talking to, who

4:31

isn't talkative enough? And what does that mean? So

4:34

actually let's talk about the what shall

4:36

we Yeah, So basically, an introvert

4:38

is someone who gets to energy from being alone,

4:41

and an extrovert gets their energy from other people

4:43

and external stimulations based on the way

4:45

their brain is wired. And that's pretty much.

4:48

That's pretty much it. Are introverts more

4:50

introspective? Not necessarily? Are they

4:52

shy? Not necessarily rights?

4:55

And some researchers put these

4:57

ideas more on a spectrum, so you're not one

4:59

or the other. There are those are outliers, but somewhere

5:02

in between. Other research

5:04

suggests that extroverts are more driven

5:06

by reward value, which influences

5:09

social behavior. So I think it's

5:11

a dopamine release and a lot

5:13

of these reward values we can get

5:15

them in social situations, so that it

5:17

kind of pushes for more

5:19

social interaction. Meanwhile,

5:22

one proposed model on introverts

5:25

breaks introversion into four types

5:27

social thinking, restraint, and anxious

5:30

and most people, according to this model,

5:33

are a mixture of those things if they're an introvert.

5:36

Right, So, our modern understanding of

5:38

these concepts go back to the nineteen

5:40

twenties and call Young, which I'm

5:42

sure most of you heard of. Young also described

5:45

a third group, which he believed to be the largest,

5:48

and that we're sort of a mixture. Nowadays,

5:50

we call that group ambia ours, and they have

5:52

qualities of both introvers and extroverts,

5:55

and those some think ambivis are just introverts

5:57

who learn how to behave like extroverts,

5:59

which we'll talk a little bit about later on.

6:02

Um scientists believe these differences have to

6:04

do with how our brains get arouse that

6:06

introverse process information more quickly

6:09

and need less stimuli. A nineteen

6:11

sixty four study with lemon Jews found that introverse

6:14

salivated more with just a few drops

6:16

of the Jews compared to the extroverts.

6:18

The scientists concluded that This meant

6:21

introverts needed less stimuli for their brains

6:23

to get aroused, and extroverts needed

6:25

more stimuli to reach that same level.

6:27

Since we can only process so much at once,

6:30

introverse turned inward to avoid

6:32

filling overwhelmed. There

6:35

have been so many studies

6:37

and research into this. I love that Lemon study.

6:39

I've never heard of that, Right, that's a good one, I think.

6:42

Yeah, so many books have been written,

6:45

these ideas have been incorporated into

6:47

Yes, the Myers Briggs and the Big

6:49

Five personality test. Psychologists

6:51

have argued about how they fit into

6:54

fixed mindsets, which is kind

6:56

of this you are who you are and that's it, and

6:59

growth mind sets, and that's the belief that you

7:01

can cultivate new behaviors in yourself

7:03

with time and effort. So

7:05

fixed mindset is sometimes also called

7:08

self as a story mindset, and

7:10

these are associated with lower self esteem

7:12

and self awareness. So if you're coming from

7:14

a fixed mindset and you tell yourself

7:17

I'm an introvert, then you might become

7:19

even more introverted than you

7:21

actually are. This is actually one of the number one reasons

7:24

I love traveling alone because I

7:26

feel like you can break out of those

7:28

kinds of stories that people have

7:30

made about you and that you have cultivated

7:32

for yourself. Psychologists

7:34

have also argued that maybe personalities

7:37

are situational, meaning we change

7:39

and adapt much more than we think if

7:41

they exist at all. And I

7:43

read so many articles about it, and it

7:45

was fascinating. I've never even thought

7:47

about it in the way people were

7:49

discussing it. It was so

7:52

cool. So depending on the source,

7:54

it's either an even split when it comes

7:56

to percentages of the population or about

7:59

twenty five sent introverts, or

8:01

the population is about half to two thirds inferts,

8:03

so the numbers very

8:06

a lot. Yes. Um

8:08

twenty eighteen survey is conducted by eBay

8:11

found that fifty pc of introverts

8:13

felt anxiety after getting an invite to something,

8:15

compared to eighteen percent of extraverts,

8:18

So seventy four percent of extroverts

8:21

felt excited by the invitation compared

8:24

to for of the introverts,

8:26

and introverts work twice as likely

8:28

to turn down an invite an introverts

8:30

work twice as likely to hang out with someone they know.

8:33

But there were a few things we can agree

8:35

on. Two thirds of all respondents

8:38

admitted they won't go to a party without

8:40

an exit plant. I think that's a great

8:42

idea personally, and both

8:44

groups were also likely to avoid bridle

8:47

showers in any events with babies

8:50

or children. And yes, yes,

8:52

I am definitely one of those people. And I will

8:54

say it's according to the event and how

8:56

many people I know, But I

8:58

am absolutely that person that wats to

9:00

see who is going to that party

9:03

or event first, so I will go click

9:05

through every single person and who

9:07

they are and who's coming with them. So

9:09

for me, I will wait till the last

9:12

possible minute to give you a response, which

9:14

probably infuriates many of people, but

9:16

I just have to prepare. So

9:19

I'm assuming any are you an automatic yes

9:21

person? Pretty much

9:24

like I guess the biggest

9:26

thing actually is how far do I have

9:28

to drive? That's

9:31

fair, but yeah, like if you invite

9:33

me to something, I will probably

9:35

come and I even have

9:38

It's sort of a fomo thing where

9:40

I used to feel like, well, what's going to happen

9:42

if I stay in? But what could happen if I go out?

9:45

But I've had to antie

9:48

proof some events because

9:50

I'm like, I don't know this person well

9:52

enough to be as you know, Samantha,

9:55

I'm frequently the last person to leave,

9:58

so I have to like that

10:00

an alarm on my phone like okay, you should

10:02

go now, and you and I have

10:04

close enough, I'm like, okay, I'm going to go to sleep now. Yeah,

10:06

you'll just kick me out, which is great. Usually

10:08

I'm like, you could stay, you can stay as long as you want, but I'm gonna

10:10

go to sleep right just what

10:13

I need because otherwise I will stay.

10:15

Um So yeah, I do, like

10:17

I do take a kind of survey of

10:19

what kind of party I think it's gonna be, like

10:21

how many people do I know? But I'll

10:23

probably be there if you invited me. Yeah.

10:27

Another survey found that extroverts

10:29

have more sex than introverts,

10:32

but it was self reported so should

10:35

be taken with a grain of salt. Some

10:37

research also suggests that extroverts are

10:39

happier, and there are a lot of theories as to why

10:42

that might be, from the world being

10:44

set up for and more accepting

10:46

of extroverts, the whole cultural personality

10:49

thing. We're gonna get into this more, but yeah, in

10:51

a lot of ways, um our culture

10:53

and like even work is set up

10:56

for extroverts, and if you're trying to fit into

10:58

that, that can lead to a lot of like

11:00

feelings of failure. Um.

11:03

And there's also science that found

11:05

simply acting happier, like smiling,

11:07

thinks it's happier doing those kinds of things, and

11:10

if you're an extrovert, you're probably doing that more

11:12

often. So maybe it's that. Um.

11:14

I feel like happiness is a hard thing to quantify,

11:17

but right, And I think the phrase

11:19

fake it till you make it is definitely a

11:22

part of that as well. So there's been a lot

11:24

of the studies into sex and age

11:26

differences and extra version and introversion,

11:28

which is very fascinating in itself,

11:31

and many of them show that introversion is more

11:33

common among women and that levels of

11:35

introversion go up with age, which

11:37

I could say I have more confidence in being

11:39

at home and staying at home and

11:41

not just being introverted. So it's more

11:44

I'm able to say no now, and I'm able to be like

11:46

nah, I'm tired and not feel ashamed

11:48

of I'm tired of people. So

11:50

I feel like, yes, I could be the age

11:53

thing, but it could be just the more

11:55

is set into my personality and more confident in

11:57

saying no. Um. But again, this

12:00

is the whole back to age of verse trying to keep

12:02

up with extroverts as well, I think at a younger

12:04

age and or just in general, you

12:06

want to try to again act

12:09

as if you're personable, and you have this dread

12:12

of not being friendly enough, outgoing enough.

12:14

So part of that is pretending

12:19

to want to be at these places so when you get older,

12:21

you just don't care anymore. That's

12:23

where I feel like I'm madam, Like, yeah, I'm aging

12:25

nicely to be able to stay hell Na.

12:29

So Friday's yeah, and Friday's

12:31

to me is no longer Let's hanging party.

12:33

It's the soft pants and bench watching alone

12:36

party, and I look forward to it. Well,

12:38

of course, now that we're

12:40

in this quarantine, life's a little

12:42

different, but before it

12:44

was absolutely like, yeah, this is this is what I want,

12:46

this is what I look forward to. It

12:49

is funny. Um, I'm glad you brought

12:51

this up because I when I was trying to think

12:53

of my own motivations for

12:55

things, it's really hard to

12:58

separate out like what is your in

13:00

chemistry and then what is something that's just

13:02

like like for me. I know I've talked about

13:04

it before, but when I get anxious, I plan

13:07

and it's a way of like not thinking about whatever

13:09

it is I'm anxious about. And so people used to ask

13:11

me, like, were you drunk when you invited me to that thing? I'm like,

13:13

Nope, I was probably panicking and

13:16

I was just trying not to, like I had

13:18

to keep my schedule so busy. And it's hard

13:20

to say if that's extra version or

13:22

like some weird PTSD thing.

13:25

Um, there's just so many factors,

13:28

right, and it's hard to separate it out,

13:30

and and finding out like that women

13:34

are more introverted,

13:36

Like there's a higher percentage of women. I

13:38

feel like introversion is more accepted among

13:41

men when you think about like the strong and silent

13:43

type or the stoic type, or the

13:45

sitcom husband who reads the paper

13:48

while his wife just talks away and he just

13:50

wants to be left alone, whereas introverted

13:52

women are often labeled as depressed or spinster.

13:55

Although I will say I was thinking like

13:57

Les Lemon from thirty Rock did a lot,

14:00

uh for the whole to staying

14:03

and eating your night cheese or whatever it is,

14:06

and and that got me to thinking, are women condition

14:08

to perform more traits

14:10

associated with extra version?

14:13

And when I think about myself. There are definitely some

14:15

behaviors that I can't say

14:18

for sure the

14:20

force, the motivating force behind

14:22

them. And I think as a woman, I do feel

14:24

a lot of pressure to like make people

14:26

happy and to if

14:28

you invite me to do a thing, I'm going to show up and I'm going to make

14:31

sure it's a fun time. And I do think

14:33

some of that is societal conditioning. So

14:36

it's hard to say for sure, right

14:38

human beings are complicated. Well, I

14:40

mean, I think that also plays into the societal idea

14:42

of women being hosts and hostesses,

14:45

and so that I definitely remember

14:48

in college, people loved

14:51

when I would take a charge of a party

14:53

in trying to plant things and organize things

14:55

and make sure everybody's happy, all of these which,

14:58

by the way, makes me panic, makes me have an

15:00

anxiety attack. I actually hate it. I

15:02

hate large gatherings that I'm in charge of because

15:04

the entire time I'm so unhappy and trying

15:06

to figure out if this person is unhappy, how

15:08

do I make this better? Oh my god, this person is not talking,

15:11

they're having you know, all of these levels. But

15:13

I think that's part of the being the perfect

15:16

quote unquote woman of the house,

15:18

whether it's you're a mother and you're

15:20

hosting a party, or your someone's wife

15:22

and you're hosting in a benefit for them. You

15:24

know, you see it. And we've talked about before in the

15:27

political roles when wives

15:29

of candidates are shown as being

15:31

the perfect, pristine people who

15:33

are friendly, outgoing, all of these thing

15:35

in bubbly and what does that look like? It's

15:37

automatically attuned with extra

15:40

version, right, And

15:42

then on the flip side of that, and I know we're going to discuss

15:44

this more in a bit, but a lot

15:46

of times women are expected to be quiet,

15:49

right, and that it's associated

15:52

with introversion. So it makes me wonder

15:54

these numbers, how

15:57

how accurate they are and how

15:59

how can we separate

16:01

that out all these societal forces.

16:04

But all right, let's get

16:07

into extroversion

16:09

and extroverts. But first we're going to pause

16:11

for a quick break for word from our sponsor, and

16:26

we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So,

16:29

according to Positive Psychology

16:31

dot com, extroverts are recharged

16:34

by socializing and make decisions

16:36

quickly, speak more or outgoing

16:39

or easily distracted, action oriented,

16:41

gregarious, and expressive, great communicators,

16:44

and enjoy being at the center of attention.

16:46

Now, as we said, not all

16:49

extroverts are the same, and not all

16:51

will exhibit all of these things. Essentially,

16:53

it just means what

16:55

we said at the top of your your energy is

16:57

coming from external stimuli,

17:00

right, So, terms associated with experts

17:03

chatty cathy, or a social butterfly,

17:05

flirty birdie, which, by the way, this is a new

17:07

one to me. Oh I used to get called flirty

17:10

birdie all the time. Why

17:12

that just oh my, okay, we'll go back,

17:14

We'll go because it's just so

17:16

nonsensical of a term.

17:19

Okay, keep it on people, person that I

17:21

have heard charming, witty,

17:23

and endearing. And while these are generally viewed as

17:25

good things, that are frequently used

17:27

to demean women or minimize

17:30

them, surprise, surprise, and things along the lines

17:32

of airhead, ditzy, the joke that

17:34

you can't get women to stop talking, all

17:36

of those ridiculous narratives, but it also

17:39

can go hand in hand with not

17:41

so great things like she's easy.

17:44

Of course, I feel like if

17:46

you were having to put this in the dichotomy

17:48

of the madonna and the horror, the extras the

17:51

horror for sure, and like the

17:53

introvert is cold ice

17:55

queen, right, and then

17:57

the whole life because I just read about

17:59

frozen and also being an introvert.

18:02

Yes, there were going that she is

18:04

the ice Queen exact, literally

18:07

the ice quaint. But

18:10

maybe we got it all wrong. Oh no,

18:13

In many ways, that's what you're saying. Earlier. Society

18:16

is set up to favor extroverts,

18:18

especially in industries that depend on relationships.

18:21

Being outgoing and making and deepening connections.

18:24

Networking can really help

18:26

you land a deal or climb a corporate

18:29

ladder. Extroverts are likelier to

18:31

hold management and senior positions. One

18:33

study found the number of introverts and top positions

18:35

was as low as two percent, and

18:37

are likelier to promote other extroverts. And

18:40

part of that is what is that what's

18:42

that like buzzwordy term FaceTime,

18:44

Like you gotta put FaceTime in at the office,

18:47

and like you've got to be at the social happy

18:49

hours, And that's where a lot of these opportunities

18:51

kind of come up, and the extroverts are more likely

18:53

to be doing those things. When

18:56

it comes to the public sere extroverted

18:58

people do tend to die maate the scene because

19:00

they're out there all the time. However,

19:03

this is not always the case. A lot of famous

19:05

introverts have I guess, kind

19:07

of gamed the system, like figured

19:10

out how to succeed

19:12

in this like extrovert world whatever.

19:16

Right, So, even primary education is

19:18

often structured in a way that favors extroversion

19:21

over introversion. In another way, this idea

19:23

of an introvert extrovert in the workplace intersect

19:25

with women is that we're always being told to

19:28

assert ourselves, speak up of meetings

19:30

and make ourselves heard largely extroverted

19:33

qualities. And you can actually even

19:35

see that and open office

19:37

plans that kind of geared

19:39

toward that whole interaction, you know,

19:41

teamwar being loud, being very

19:44

interactive, which and when

19:46

you start researching and we'll talk a little more about it during the

19:48

inner version portion is anti

19:51

productive for introverts

19:53

because they need that solitude to have a

19:55

creative mind space and being able to

19:57

work out their own creativity

19:59

and or says, so it's very much

20:01

so that whole level of what

20:03

is this geared toward Back in

20:05

the before times, our office is at open

20:08

Space office, and you weren't

20:10

there yet, Samantha, but when we moved

20:13

in like two or three months later, we had a

20:15

whole office meeting and it turned into

20:17

an hour and a half of like half the office

20:19

just saying how much they open

20:23

office space, and I will

20:25

I would say as surprising as that, maybe our

20:28

office is made up of a lot of introverts.

20:32

I I mean, I would venture to

20:34

guess that is true. But yeah, I

20:36

came into the office and like what is

20:40

this? Because yeah,

20:42

I hated it. I hate

20:45

because I'm like, I don't like being

20:47

watched and every time maybe it's just my

20:49

own like inability to focus,

20:52

but like what what, Who's what? Who's

20:54

here? What are they doing? What? And then being

20:56

afraid and I'm again, I'm not extroverted

21:00

to an extent, but I do have a

21:02

voice, and I do like to talk

21:04

to myself. I

21:06

do have a talk, you know, And so sometimes when I talk

21:08

to myself, I forget I'm in an open space

21:11

with a lot of other people who

21:13

have figured out not to talk to themselves. I've

21:16

definitely overheard some curse words and

21:19

some some laughs.

21:21

So maybe you're not as

21:23

out of place as you think you are. So that maybe

21:25

maybe other research

21:27

suggests the existence of what is called an ambivert

21:30

advantage because Amtiverts

21:32

are good at listening and asserting themselves.

21:34

Some studies have found that they are more productive than

21:37

both introverts and extroverts.

21:40

There's also something called the friendship paradox

21:42

and the extroversion bias. Essentially

21:46

are outgoing extroverted friends are

21:48

more likely to be represented in our

21:50

friendship circles because they have more friends,

21:53

leading to the misconception there are more

21:55

extroverts than there actually

21:57

are. UM, and extroverts

22:01

aren't great at understanding introverts,

22:03

or they haven't been for a long time. I do

22:05

think this is improving some um

22:08

they might see introverts

22:10

stuck up or judgmental, like oh,

22:12

you're too good for my small talk or whatever it is.

22:14

For some they just can't

22:17

compute the idea that someone would want would

22:19

need to be alone and

22:21

there not be something wrong. I kind of

22:23

just need to check in. Oh they're they're by

22:25

themselves. I should check in on And

22:28

like, this was a a moment for

22:30

me again where I was thinking back to that interaction

22:32

I with my friend in the in the morning and

22:35

whatever the case was, extra version

22:37

or he's just not a morning person,

22:40

but it like never occurred to me. I thought I was doing

22:42

a service. I was

22:44

trying to help and

22:47

not not wanted at all. I'm not wanted

22:50

at all. Um. The

22:52

word antisocial gets thrown around

22:54

a lot when you're talking about introverts,

22:57

and that's the product of a lot of our media

22:59

narrative around what introversion

23:01

is. Even the Dictionary recognizes

23:04

our cultural understanding of introvert

23:06

in one of its definitions as shy and withdrawn,

23:09

which isn't accurate. It can be,

23:12

but that's not what it means. Right,

23:14

So let's talk about introverts. Let's

23:16

clear some of this up, all right, But

23:18

first let's take one more quick break for

23:20

word from our sponsor and

23:35

we're back. Thank you, sponsor. So,

23:37

Samantha, you tell us about introvers

23:40

I got you, so for my people's According

23:43

to Positive Psychology, they describe

23:46

introverts with these traits recharge

23:48

by spending time alone, reflect before

23:50

making decisions, listen, more, enjoy

23:53

one on one conversation, introspective, self

23:55

aware I think before acting, learn

23:57

through observation, and more sociable with people.

24:00

Well they know again, introverts don't

24:02

always have all of these traits. They're

24:04

just commonly associated with introverts.

24:06

And according to author Susan Kine introversion

24:08

is quote simply a preference to socialize

24:11

in these quieter ways we

24:14

mentioned earlier. How Surprisingly, there

24:16

are statistically more women who are classified

24:18

as introverts than there are men, But when

24:20

it comes to the stereotypes, it seems men are more

24:22

accepted as introverts than women. As

24:24

blogger MICHAELA. Chung puts it, Western

24:27

society tends to be more accepting of stoic men than

24:29

their female counterparts. It's not uncommon

24:31

to hear women being referenced to as snobs

24:33

or awkward, or even stand offish

24:36

if they aren't interactive enough, But for those

24:38

who may be considered talkative, they are sometimes

24:40

a reference to, as yeah, Chattie Cathy's.

24:43

When we were researching the subject of

24:45

introvert versus extrovert, there does seem to be a lot

24:47

of assumptions of the personality trait being

24:49

negative for introverts,

24:52

opinions stating that introverts are strange or selfish,

24:54

or maybe even hiding something I

24:56

knew it, Samantha. One statement

24:59

even goes as far as say, every once in

25:01

a while, it's something good, but of the time

25:03

the introvert is a shady character.

25:06

Don't mind me, I'm not being shady.

25:10

As in fact, with those many negative stereotypes

25:12

of introverts and specifically female introverts,

25:14

there's this continued conversation of what leadership

25:17

looks like for those who have been identified

25:20

as an introvert. The many articles we looked

25:22

at seemed to be quote how to guys

25:25

to provide introverts the skills needed

25:27

to move forward. As one article states

25:29

from the u S News, is a double whammy

25:31

effect, which is referencing the already

25:33

known statistic that women are less likely to be

25:35

promoted or considered for a promotion into

25:37

a leadership position and add to that

25:39

the challenges that often can be associated with

25:41

introverts, such as quietness or inability

25:44

to schmooz slash network in

25:46

order to be seen. And in one study conducted

25:49

by ones in Deals Church, only fifteen

25:51

percent of the supervisory level was made up of introverts

25:53

while only two percent or CEOs.

25:55

So that's kind of a very odd, weird

25:58

low number. And if we want to talk about

26:00

levels, let's also think on the many women of color,

26:03

LGBTQ, non binatary women introverts

26:05

trying to move forward in their careers. But we'll

26:07

come back to that in a bit. And

26:10

most, if not all, of the research that we came across,

26:12

the constant mention of imposter syndrome was

26:14

a theme of trying to navigate what seems

26:17

to be a world of extroverts who are

26:19

framed as outgoing and assertive. Unless

26:21

you're a woman, than you run into also

26:24

the problem of being labeled as overbearing or

26:26

loud no at alls. Many of

26:28

those who identify as introverts

26:30

often speak of trying to change

26:32

their personalities and pushing themselves to be seen as

26:34

more friendly and outgoing, or

26:37

just not moving forward and backing away

26:39

from opportunities due to inability or anxiety

26:41

of trying to be acknowledged or given

26:44

recognition. And so with that,

26:47

here are a couple of health advice for introverts

26:49

trying to climb the ladder supposedly,

26:51

so let's see if they work. So

26:53

one is focus on your work at hand

26:55

or passion instead of looking at the downfall

26:58

of your personality type. Introvirs are so

27:00

often mistaken as antisocial

27:02

when in actuality is the level of interaction

27:04

and social networking that can drain an individual,

27:07

and it's not necessarily being around another

27:09

human. For me, I think I need connections

27:11

someone who I can be completely honest with and open

27:14

with on a personal level. I

27:16

am very quick to get to the depth

27:18

of a conversation, to the point that I've been called

27:20

intimidating. Move

27:23

with it. But it's something that

27:25

I I can't if it's a vapid conversation

27:28

for too long is exhausting to me. And

27:31

so when you think about all of that and how that

27:33

can help. When you're able to find a passion

27:35

or that passion in general and put it into practice,

27:37

the impact can be significant in a career

27:40

slash work field. Right

27:42

embracing your introversion.

27:45

Um, yeah, it's neither

27:49

is better than the other. Right, neither

27:51

is better than the others. So another tip, be

27:54

strategic again when we're talking about introverts

27:56

and social settings. The idea of big

27:58

groups of strangers is daunting, but small

28:00

personal connections can be just as if

28:02

not more, useful in strategic

28:05

planning for the growth of a company or an idea.

28:07

And who doesn't love a good email, Well,

28:09

it depends I

28:13

actually do love email. Um.

28:15

This is where introverts can excel um

28:18

on all those meetings you know that could

28:20

have just been an email. As

28:22

we see today the introverts there

28:24

for you, right, I

28:27

don't want to talk to your face, I'll just send you an email even

28:29

better. I am like that. I actually

28:31

do really prefer, but that's my hearing problem.

28:33

I think that's

28:36

fair. Those who have issues

28:39

with hearing or our death or can't hear,

28:41

they probably would really, really

28:43

really prefer being able to have a concentrated

28:46

chat room versus video

28:49

chats or just a video or having in personal

28:51

conversation whereas a giant group of people. So

28:54

that makes sense. The panic I

28:56

feel when I have like multiple

28:59

voices and I can't see faces. Oh

29:01

my god. It is interesting

29:03

to me too, um,

29:05

because I in theory I

29:07

would love to do face to face

29:09

things, and I do, but I have to

29:12

do It's like another antiproofing thing where I

29:14

know, if I don't have time,

29:16

I'm going to keep talking because I like it and I

29:18

want to talk to this person. So a lot

29:20

of times, even though I would prefer to do face

29:23

to face, I make myself do emails

29:26

because it's a time saver. Um.

29:28

So it's it's funny to hear it from your side

29:31

here, from my sider, essentially trying

29:33

to do the same thing we really are, or

29:35

just taking different routes and have different

29:37

motivations for it. Um

29:41

And as we mentioned, when it comes to women

29:43

being introverts, there is the issue of the double

29:45

whammy, but going even beyond that on an

29:47

intersectional level, we do see

29:50

or even assume when it comes to women of color, LGBTQ

29:52

plus, non binary, or as Lynette

29:54

Crane, who is a consultant that speaks on introverts

29:57

and job advancement, called it

29:59

a triple whammy right as

30:01

in fact, a blogger named Nicole Nichols

30:04

right specifically in being an introverted

30:06

Black woman, in the many stereotypes that come

30:08

along with being a black woman, whether it's the expectation

30:11

that black women are bold and bigger than life personality,

30:13

and then what happens when that is not

30:16

that person's individual personality. She

30:18

writes, we've all seen in the media of

30:20

the Sister Girls with the rotating next,

30:22

shrill voices and tempers that go from zero

30:24

to one hundred and two seconds. As hard

30:27

it is to believe in a society that it's more

30:29

diverse than ever, there's still people whose

30:31

only exposures to black women are shows like

30:33

Love and Hip Hop, Basketball Wives and The World

30:35

Housewives of Atlanta, which seemed to never

30:37

showcase an introverted black women as

30:40

In fact, there was a season

30:42

in which one of the members of the Real

30:44

Housewives Atlanta talked about the fact that

30:46

her scenes were cut completely

30:49

and I believe she wasn't invited back because there

30:51

was not enough drama. Sure,

30:54

and she speaks on the stereotypes that continue

30:56

to dismiss introverted women of color and maybe

30:58

even their value. She goes on to talk about

31:00

her experiences of being reprimanded for being

31:03

too quiet and not lively enough at

31:05

a social event, and it definitely

31:07

is a level of judgment for who she is as an individual

31:10

and a personality type. So I find that really fascinating

31:12

when we have that expecsion of, oh my god,

31:14

this is already bad, but let's add these

31:17

again intersectional issues that we

31:19

don't see or think about enough. Yeah.

31:22

Um,

31:25

it is interesting to think of

31:28

how we've

31:30

just sort of coded as a society

31:32

that the wallflower or whatever, that there's something

31:34

wrong right right,

31:37

and that you need to I

31:41

don't know, like they're just being weird or awkward, but

31:43

really like, I don't know, I

31:46

like to go talk to the wallflower and then if

31:48

they're not into it, I just leave right

31:50

And I think this is also a big conversation to

31:52

have in the lgbt Q plus community

31:55

when we think about the ideas of

31:57

a gay men versus lesbians and

32:00

the ideas that happened of who is who,

32:02

who has the bigger personality and

32:04

who kind of has this negative connotation

32:06

when we see the world around us,

32:09

and even when we talked about transgender

32:11

communities and in the conversations that we have

32:13

to have, you see amazing things like pose, but

32:16

automatically assume that all

32:18

transgender people are that vibrant

32:21

because of a persona, and so it's very

32:23

problematic when it comes to the fact that you're

32:25

not that person. You're just an individual who

32:27

was finding their identity in a different way quietly

32:31

and need a process. And it's an interesting

32:33

whammy of how does this continue

32:35

to affect How do this continue to be a

32:37

negative um impact for

32:40

you as that person going through such a giant

32:43

personal growth or personal awareness and trying

32:45

to navigate that in a world where you're

32:47

supposed to fit into these things. For

32:49

people's entertainment. So right here,

32:52

what I am hearing it's more representation.

32:55

What so,

32:57

introversion has been long

33:00

viewed as a negative, as we've been discussing

33:02

as recently yours um

33:05

not necessarily because of our current isolation

33:07

situation, it has become

33:10

almost popular to call oneself an

33:12

introvert. I when I was

33:14

researching this, to the rue of the reasons I felt so

33:16

judged was the many articles

33:18

written like, finally we can escape

33:20

those extroverts in their small talk

33:23

treaded small talk was like, we

33:25

don't like bi small talk small

33:28

talk? Oh good, well

33:30

we fit well that's the thing. Yeah, yeah, we

33:32

need each other. We do need each other. And

33:36

it's kind of a shift in this conversation on what an introvert

33:39

actually is, like an understanding of what it is, what it

33:41

means, and the power behind the creative

33:43

quiet process often associated

33:46

with an introvert. Right, and

33:48

another conversation we definitely want to come back

33:50

to is the idea Chelsea Brooks talks about

33:53

with the gender perceptions of extroverse

33:55

and introverse, with the idea that introversion

33:57

is a feminine trait when talking about

33:59

extroverse. We here of it being masculine, bold

34:01

and loud, and when we discussed introverts,

34:03

the idea of more analytical, thoughtful reserved

34:06

mousey, which is seen as feminine,

34:08

and the question of why Yeah.

34:11

Yeah, So going

34:13

back to the author

34:15

we mentioned earlier, Susan Kane, she she's

34:17

kind of like the expert right

34:20

introversion. She wrote Quiet,

34:22

The Power of Introverts in a World that Won't Stop Talking.

34:24

She also did a TED talk that I know, like Emma

34:26

Watson is called out and Bill

34:29

Gates says it's one of his favorites. So she's

34:31

a big deal. In this conversation,

34:34

I think every blogger that we saw her, every

34:36

writer that we saw that did a post mention

34:39

her at least three or four times. Yes,

34:42

And she commented on how um

34:45

introversion and our ideas around it

34:47

impacts feminism. She said, women

34:49

who are naturally quiet feels if they can't

34:51

be feminist or be powerful because of it. We

34:53

really need to undo that perception. And

34:56

yeah, we perhaps inadvertedly, are sending

34:59

this message to young girls that a

35:01

strong woman has to be

35:03

an extroverted one. There are no strong female

35:06

introverts, which is absolutely not

35:08

true. Yeah, as in fact,

35:11

we have some examples of some amazing

35:13

female introvis Audrey Hepburn, who

35:16

was a genius and a lovely

35:19

actress way back when. Breakfast An Tiffany's is

35:21

still one of my favorites. Um, even

35:23

though Campody hated it fair enough,

35:25

um Eleanor Roosevelt, who had made

35:28

such impact when as the first Lady

35:30

Meryl Street. You don't you know she's

35:33

a powerhouse. We know this, He's a powerhouse

35:35

and everything. Rosa Parks who started

35:37

a movement on her own. And then Michelle Obama,

35:40

come on, come on, the show

35:42

loves Michelle Obama. So if you don't, sorry, but we love

35:44

her, and yes she should be given the respect, all

35:47

the respects. Yeah, it

35:49

is interesting how many, um,

35:52

really creative, famous people are

35:54

introverts. And actually, when I

35:57

first started working here, kind of going back to your

35:59

point, I was surprised at how many of

36:01

the hosts of the podcast we do or introverts.

36:04

And I mean it makes sense because I do think

36:07

being analytical is actually

36:09

one of the keys to be in creative and that's my own personal

36:11

thing. I can go into it forever and ever

36:13

I won't. But yeah,

36:16

yeah, yeah, So

36:18

now that we've kind of given you the three not

36:21

two types of personalities

36:23

of extrovert and divert and introvert.

36:25

Where do you think you lie and how does that affect

36:28

us today? In quarantine? I will

36:30

say specifically, as I said earlier,

36:32

at the beginning, I was

36:34

kind of like, yes, I'm a true introvert.

36:37

I cannot maintain in

36:39

a large group. I panic from the

36:41

beginning, but then have to rev myself

36:44

up. I put on a show essentially,

36:46

I think you know you and I've talked about this when

36:48

I'm on I'm on. Yeah, but it

36:50

is exhausting and I need like five

36:52

days to recoup. Yeah,

36:55

now I totally get that. You actually

36:58

can. I can feel it physically. I am so exhausted.

37:00

I can sleep for days. My voice is gone.

37:03

Maybe because I'm always screaming um, maybe

37:05

it's because I'm dancing too, I don't know, but it

37:07

is. It's a whole level of like, oh my god, these

37:09

are the things that I have to do. But I'm good

37:11

at it and I know how to read people

37:13

enough. But it also comes to the point that before

37:16

I come into a situation, I'm gonna watch your personality

37:18

first and see what meshes First. I

37:20

think that's part of my social work background as well.

37:24

But in quarantine times it's

37:28

been kind of difficult. Like I I love

37:31

my own space and I love being recharged,

37:34

but yeah, I'm like, oh oh,

37:36

now, this anxiety and overwhelming

37:38

need to actually be around people

37:41

has kind of pushed me to the Okay,

37:43

I'm ready for a giant party with my friends

37:45

where we're just all loudly speaking to each other,

37:49

trying to catch up, touching,

37:51

maybe within three feet

37:53

of each other. Right, Look,

37:55

every time I look at any, I think every time

37:57

I've watched the movie recently or TV shows like they're

38:00

say, Any too close? Why are they standing so close?

38:02

I know it's going to leave a like

38:05

lasting impact.

38:08

We're sure, yeah, for

38:10

sure. Do you think you are absolutely

38:13

an extrovert or would you say you're more of an ambivert

38:15

line? Um? I

38:17

actually i think

38:19

I'm at like really strong, maybe

38:22

like on the very edge of ambivert

38:24

and extrovert. I think I'm I'm pretty

38:26

strong, Um extrovert.

38:29

I actually took one of the tests yesterday

38:32

and out of five five being extrovert

38:34

one being introverted, I got four point eight

38:36

or something. But the thing is it

38:39

really helps me read, not to reframe to correct

38:41

how I was thinking of it, because I,

38:44

like I said, I don't have to be around people all the time.

38:47

Um, it's the new experiences

38:49

in the stimulus that I

38:51

get and like I can,

38:54

I can write my fan fiction, you

38:56

know days. But I

39:00

it is, I've noticed it. It is worn on me

39:03

being in during this quarantine,

39:05

right. Um. And you can listen

39:07

to our the mini we did recently for more

39:09

on that. Um,

39:12

but it's it is. I'm glad we did

39:14

this one because I did have a lot of misconceptions

39:16

and I would have said, maybe I'm more of an introvert

39:18

actually, and people just think I'm an extrovert. But you

39:21

need a stimulus and I do not. But

39:25

I think and I think for sure we're talking

39:27

about memes, you are absolutely the one I'm thinking

39:29

of when they'll like check on your extroverse, they're not okay,

39:32

I know, I'm

39:36

just like standing at the window looking

39:40

out fromone someone to come talk

39:43

to me. Definitely

39:45

check in, I mean checking in all your friends because like we said,

39:47

it's not like it's a cake walk for introverts.

39:50

Right. And remember, because the anxiety

39:52

and the like if we're talking about

39:54

the level of the analytical side

39:57

of this. This is a haunting and

39:59

very scary moment for everyone. And

40:01

it doesn't matter what your personality type is.

40:04

If you're optimistic, wonderful, But

40:06

for an introvert who against

40:08

can internalize a lot of emotions in

40:10

general, and it may not speak out when

40:13

something is wrong. Is

40:15

definitely something this can be

40:17

a problematic issue. Oh yeah,

40:19

yeah, I mean it's it's not easy

40:22

for for anybody, for sure. So in

40:24

general, check on your people's yes, yes,

40:27

check on all your friends and

40:29

yeah, right to us, right,

40:32

please, And we would love to hear

40:34

from you. We'd love to know where you are

40:36

on this extrovert introvert

40:38

spectrum. Um you can

40:40

email us. Our email is Stuff Media, mom Stuff

40:43

at i heart media dot com. You can find us

40:45

on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts or on Instagram

40:47

at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always

40:49

to our super producer Andrew

40:51

Howard. Thank you Andrew, who was an introvert

40:54

for sure. Yes, we actually discussed

40:56

it earlier today, and thanks to you

40:58

for listening. Stuff on We Told You was

41:00

a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts

41:02

from iHeart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple

41:04

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41:07

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