0:03

Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told

0:05

You from House Supports dot Com.

0:12

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

0:15

and I'm Caroline, and today is a special episode

0:17

of Stuff Mom Never Told You, because we're talking

0:20

very special woman Jane Pratt.

0:22

Hooray, hooray. Yes, Jane

0:24

Pratt was the founding editor

0:27

of Sassy Magazine, which launched

0:29

in nineteen. By the way,

0:31

she was twenty four when she got the job,

0:34

and Sassy was kind of

0:36

a big deal. Yeah, it's like a

0:39

touchstone for our our generation,

0:41

I feel like, well especially our generation of

0:44

women. Yes, it was like one

0:46

of the first, if

0:48

not the first, kind of alternative magazine

0:51

for young women, because you had

0:53

things like seventeen and teen

0:55

and then Cosmopolitan, but

0:59

then there came Yeah,

1:01

and following Sassie came Jane

1:03

Magazine, which I was also super

1:05

super into as a young woman. Yeah,

1:07

it launched in after

1:11

Sassy folded, and most

1:13

recently, Jane Pratt launched

1:16

a few years back. Exo Jane,

1:19

and a lot of Exo Jane focuses

1:21

on first person essays.

1:24

Um. The classic kind of tagline

1:26

for a lot of them is it happened to me and

1:29

it's all sorts of stories,

1:32

um about things that have happened to young

1:36

women and some men as well.

1:39

But we were really excited to have a chance to

1:41

talk to Jane just about her observations

1:44

of young women over the

1:46

years, the issues that affect us, how

1:48

feminism has influenced her career,

1:51

and also whether

1:53

she's ever going to bring back Sassy. Yeah.

1:56

So, without further ado, let's hear from Jane

1:59

herself. So,

2:04

Jane Pratt, for our listeners

2:06

who have been living under a rock and

2:08

don't know who you are, could you just briefly

2:11

introduce yourself and talk about all

2:13

the incredible things that you do? Oh

2:17

boy, um Yeah. I'm

2:20

Jane Pratt and I am currently

2:22

an editor in chief of XO Jane

2:24

dot com and also

2:27

oversee Exodine, which is a

2:29

beauty offshoot of Xojin.

2:32

Before this, I

2:34

had two magazines, one called Jane

2:37

and one before that called Sassy.

2:40

I've been around doing the same basic thing

2:42

in different media for

2:45

many, many many years. Well,

2:47

and that leads me to my

2:49

first big question for you, which was since

2:52

launching Sassy and I believe

2:54

nineteen and now

2:56

with XO Jane, have

2:59

the kinds of issue us and sort of

3:01

womanhood conundrums to quite

3:03

an awkward phrase change in

3:06

what you've heard from your contributors

3:08

and writers and editors over the years,

3:11

is today's young woman that different

3:13

from the young woman of the

3:15

early nineties day. So

3:17

I think one of the differences is about pressures

3:20

on on women to

3:24

do everything. Um. I think

3:26

it used to be kind of this glorious

3:28

like, oh, you can you can do

3:30

whatever you want to do, you know, and that was like the

3:33

greatest thing that you could tell your daughter,

3:35

you know, that she could do whatever she wanted. But

3:37

now I think that you

3:39

have to be really careful to say,

3:41

like, you don't have to do absolutely

3:44

everything, um. And then also

3:48

also to be honest about the fact that there

3:50

are still black ceilings. You know what,

3:53

did I just see the other day that four

3:55

hundred wealthiest c e O s or whatever

3:57

or two hundred, and it was how many

3:59

of them were women? It was like eleven of

4:01

them or women or something like that. You know. So there's

4:03

still is a long way to go. But

4:06

I think that the one one thing that

4:08

I think hasn't changed is that is

4:12

that most women, I think are still a

4:14

lot smarter than

4:18

then. They give away on the outside, and

4:20

I'm sort of surprised that that hasn't

4:24

that we haven't evolved past that

4:26

to where women can just be as

4:29

and and girls especially could just

4:31

be as open about

4:34

how much is really going on in their minds.

4:37

That is true. Why do you think that

4:39

is in terms of the that

4:41

perhaps we're still not as

4:44

socially free to

4:46

be, you know, an open, honest,

4:49

forthright woman sort of like what you're you're

4:51

talking about. Yeah, I mean I think

4:54

that I think that women still share

4:56

a lot of their really

4:59

deep itselves and most

5:01

intelligent selves with other women that

5:04

I think that. I

5:06

think that when men are around, I

5:08

think there still is this idea

5:11

that you might want to downplay

5:13

that and you're interested in being

5:16

with one of those men for one thing.

5:18

You know, I think there still is like a

5:20

little bit of that crazy

5:22

like you know, noil like

5:25

put yourself down to build them

5:27

kind of mentality. I

5:30

see it, it is said to me, But I still

5:32

still do see it. Well, speaking to

5:34

that pressure that you've witnessed

5:37

among especially girls of

5:39

this generation, and also to

5:42

the fact that we might communicate to each

5:44

other a little bit differently than we might when men and

5:46

men are in the room. How do

5:48

you see XO Jane sort of fitting

5:50

into that, especially because the tagline has

5:53

to do with, you know, where women

5:56

go to be selfish and where selfishness

5:59

is applauded. Yeah,

6:01

I love this idea with Exogen

6:03

of doing, of creating the space where

6:06

women can talk

6:08

to each other as

6:11

though there are no men in the room,

6:13

and also not just no men that

6:15

no kids, no teachers,

6:18

no parents, no bosses,

6:21

no anybody that you would try to put on

6:23

a certain front four And it's

6:25

where you go and your your unabashed itself.

6:27

You're just like, this is really what's on

6:29

my mind, this is what I really want, and

6:32

then we do get We

6:35

have gotten a good

6:37

portion of well, I think it's about

6:39

fift mail readers now

6:41

who will say, you know that when they go to

6:43

x okay, they see what women

6:46

really talk about when they're not in the room. So it's

6:48

not it's not like topic or something where

6:50

it's kind of like a major men

6:53

version of well women talk about. How

6:55

did those men tend to respond to hearing

6:57

what women really talk about? Are

7:00

they usually a little surprised and shocked?

7:03

Yeah, they get they get kind of

7:05

taken aback and they say it's it's really educational,

7:08

sometimes kind of shocking. Um,

7:11

and then they'll but then they get really addicted

7:13

to it, and then they'll just keep coming back and back and back.

7:15

If there's still make an excuse like they'll say

7:18

that, oh, it was open on my girlfriend's

7:20

laptop or whatever, you know. But

7:22

then they'll then they have to guss up when

7:24

they're in the comments every day and when

7:26

they're quoting things from the rand

7:29

you know, at the very end of an article the day before,

7:31

and you're like, you read the entire thing. You didn't

7:33

need to do that now. Extra Jane has

7:35

published so many

7:38

fascinating, hilarious, some even heartbreaking

7:41

first person essays, and I

7:43

was wondering if there were any that come to mind

7:45

that have really made a strong

7:47

impression on you. Yeah, wow,

7:50

definitely. I Mean one of

7:52

the formats that we have um

7:55

for publishing those first person

7:57

essays is it happened to Me, which

8:00

is something that I actually started

8:02

back in Sassy magazine, and

8:05

um, it's a place where people

8:08

can tell tell their stories

8:11

about something. I always say

8:13

everybody has at least one really strong

8:15

it happened to me in them. Usually it's a

8:17

story that they wouldn't just tell a

8:20

cocktail party or whatever. It's a deep you

8:22

know, something that's affected them deeply. And

8:25

the funny thing is, like the first one

8:27

of those we ever did and sassy, Um,

8:30

it wasn't at that time, so

8:34

there wasn't that much first person writing

8:37

and reporting at that time as there is

8:39

now with blogs and everything. So

8:41

um, for the first of one, I actually had to get my sister

8:43

to write it under a pseudonym,

8:46

to write about an abortion

8:48

that she had had because I couldn't find people

8:51

who were just willing to put their stories out there in that way.

8:54

So and now cut

8:56

to you know, cut to today

8:58

and we get, oh gosh,

9:01

hundreds of submissions

9:04

to it. Happened to me at x O Jane every week,

9:06

like hundreds of people wanting to tell their

9:08

personal stories. And I feel like we've made

9:11

it a safe place for them to do that, a

9:13

non judgmental zone

9:16

where they feel like they can do that. Thinking

9:19

some of the ones that had really stood out to me.

9:21

Um, it's a big range, Like

9:24

I think that we've gotten we've

9:26

gotten a fair amount of attention

9:28

on exogene for the once, uh,

9:31

where we've gotten somebody who a

9:33

woman who was in the middle of a media

9:37

maelstrom to tell her

9:39

version of the story, like Daisy Coleman,

9:42

for example, who was the

9:46

rape victim who had not ever she

9:49

hadn't told her own story, and then she

9:51

came to that on XOJ and that was wonderful.

9:54

Also a woman um who

9:56

outed the well it's another race

9:58

theme, but a woman who out of the Steven

10:01

Bill Ravius um she

10:03

is also she also wrote for us and

10:06

that was really powerful. Kind of a

10:08

lot like that wasn't

10:10

we got a lot of attention for it. Was Bell Mox

10:12

who uh to porn stars,

10:15

put yourself into university? What's

10:17

definitely I never even said this, but I grew

10:19

up all that dig university. He had us. Both my parents

10:21

taught there too, so I kept imagining

10:23

every time. I was Yeah, when I met her

10:25

in every took of reading me, so I was like, oh wow,

10:28

interesting. But anyway, yeah, so

10:30

that's but that's another version of a wove been telling

10:32

her real true story and huge

10:35

reactions. Well, I feel like the

10:37

so called confessional writing

10:40

sort of in the style of it happened to me. Often

10:42

it's criticized it as being like too

10:44

self absorbed, but clearly

10:48

there is a purpose

10:50

for it, Like you know, there's a there's not just

10:52

the therapy on the on behalf of the writer, like being able

10:55

to get these feelings out, but also for the

10:57

reader. So I was wondering from you too, like what do you feel

10:59

is is the big value of that

11:01

kind of confessional first

11:03

person writing? Yeah? So I

11:06

think the value in in that is

11:08

removing shame. I think that

11:10

if I come out or any anybody

11:13

comes out and says, Okay,

11:16

this is what I really did, that

11:18

I that a lot of people would shame me

11:20

for doing, and um,

11:22

then other people can read that and go wow.

11:25

I I also I do the same thing,

11:28

and I was keeping it to myself because I felt

11:30

so ashamed of it. And let's just get it out

11:32

in the open, because there's that, you know, that a

11:35

expression like you're only a stick because your secrets or

11:37

whatever. It's like, if you can get it out

11:39

and share it with other people, then

11:42

then then you feel you feel

11:44

better about yourself and you can move forward from it.

11:46

Um, this is a much broader question,

11:49

but how has feminism informed

11:52

your career and exarching? Yeah?

11:56

I well, I grew up with a

11:58

mom that read the very

12:01

first issues of Miss magazine, and

12:03

I remember when you get it and there

12:05

was a section in it on different paper

12:07

stuff that was three stories

12:09

for free children or something, and I would get those

12:12

and I would like look at them. And so I was

12:14

very much And also we would go

12:16

into March on Washington pretty regularly

12:19

wearing all white with my mom and her friends,

12:21

that I'd be there, I'd be the kid, you know, walking

12:23

along with them. So I very much grew

12:25

up being proud of being a feminist

12:28

and UM, and that had

12:30

that informs every

12:32

single thing that I do. UM.

12:35

It's surprising to me in many

12:37

ways that still UM

12:40

now, so many years later,

12:43

you still have it seems like with each new generation

12:46

you have to kind of show them again that

12:49

feminism is not a bad word,

12:52

that it's not something to be um, that

12:55

that all those connotations that people put

12:58

on it and being you know, being mill person

13:00

are angry or hating men, are all that stuff, that

13:03

that's not at all what it means. You know, it's

13:05

it's uh, it's it's

13:07

being I think of it as being like a

13:10

girl's girl, which is my favorite

13:13

type of person. You know, just somebody who

13:16

is who really likes to bring other

13:18

women up and support them and make them

13:20

feel better about themselves and make them feel more beautiful

13:22

and funnier and

13:25

all that stuff. I mean, I just think that that's

13:27

like, I don't know the

13:29

way to live for me. What

13:31

do you think it might take for more

13:35

girls to more commonly

13:37

embrace the term feminism

13:39

or the like self label as feminist

13:42

because there's they're being told so often

13:44

messages of just general empowerment,

13:47

but there doesn't seem to be It seems like we

13:49

still need to bridge that gap. I

13:51

totally agree, And sometimes

13:53

I think, well, how Sometimes

13:56

I think how important is it if

13:58

they are living by the deals with feminism

14:01

and they benefited from what

14:03

early feminists did and

14:06

they continue to help other

14:09

women to get ahead and all that

14:11

stuff, then maybe whether they

14:13

call themselves feminists or not may not be

14:15

the most important. I don't know. It's funny because

14:17

I have one of my my

14:21

top editors on exo Jane, Emily

14:23

mccomes it's just truly awesome,

14:25

does not identify herself

14:28

as a feminist in the same way that I do,

14:30

and she doesn't feel like, um exo

14:33

Jane is a She wouldn't label

14:35

it a feminist site even though I

14:37

would, But you know what, we want the same

14:39

things. We both wanted to be

14:41

a very empowering, supportive

14:43

place for all women to visit.

14:46

So it's sometimes I wonder if the name is you

14:48

know the labels M Well, Jane,

14:50

since this podcast is called Stuff Mom

14:52

Never Told You, and you have a

14:55

daughter, I want to know what kind of things you

14:57

are telling her, what kind of advice you're passing

14:59

along about growing up being a woman,

15:02

et cetera. Yeah, I

15:04

um, okay, I Well, first

15:06

of all, I gotta say that I'm at the space right

15:08

now where I am thoroughly embarrassing

15:11

to my daughter. She doesn't think I'm cool at all.

15:14

Twice this week she did not let

15:16

me walk into the school with her, once because of the shirt

15:18

I was wearing, another time because of the dudes.

15:21

Yes, so, okay, I'm dealing

15:23

with that where I'm worry sometimes

15:26

that if I say too much that

15:28

she's gonna take it and go

15:30

the other way with it. But

15:33

but what do I tell her? I

15:36

mostly I do. I do a

15:38

lot of listening, and I'm I'm

15:40

in heaven whenever she's whenever she's opening

15:43

up to me. The things

15:45

I tell her, I tell her that. Okay,

15:48

here's one thing. When I was doing Sassy

15:51

magazine, so I was, I was in

15:53

my early mid twenties,

15:56

and we had all these

15:59

moms would write many letters

16:01

and say, if you had a

16:03

daughter, you will not be publishing

16:05

this kind of information for

16:08

young women. You would not be getting

16:10

them birth control information, you would

16:12

not be talking to them about as

16:14

TVs. You would not be um giving

16:17

them all this kind of uh very

16:21

telling them so much at such a young age.

16:23

So I'm always wondered.

16:25

I always thought, when my daughter grows up

16:28

and is in that basic age range,

16:30

and am I going to feel more conservative

16:32

about what kind of information I want to share with

16:34

her? Um? No, not at all.

16:36

Like I would be so happy if they were assassy

16:39

around today that she could read. So I feel

16:41

like I'm her sassy, So I give her

16:43

all that information, all that you know,

16:45

any questions about sex, anything like

16:48

that. I'm right there. That's fantastic.

16:50

Well, and especially for kids today,

16:53

if you don't tell them they have the internet

16:56

exactly exactly,

16:58

that's exactly right. And yeah,

17:00

that's exactly right. It used to be like the

17:03

fear was you know, you hear it from your friends in the

17:05

schoolyard. But now it's like just

17:07

get on there and you know, see

17:10

tons and tons and tons of really

17:13

really bad information. And you can't guarantee

17:16

that she will go to xo j dot com, you

17:18

know, to get a better perspective on

17:21

things. And some people are

17:23

actually horrified that I that I would

17:25

let her read exogen dot com. But the truth

17:27

is she doesn't. I

17:29

don't really have a whole lot of

17:32

say over what she reads or

17:34

doesn't read, because she's so much

17:36

more text savy than I am. That she's

17:38

actually like hacked into my commenting

17:41

profile on XO Jane and

17:44

said, like to the readers, you know, tell

17:46

my mom that it's time for her to get the puppy

17:49

already or whatever it is. She's done that a few

17:51

times. He's smart. Well,

17:55

this is just a side note question, but I'm just

17:57

curious if you ever get tired

17:59

of people asking you in every single interview

18:01

when you're gonna revive Sassy

18:04

or if that will happen. No,

18:06

because I still want to do it. I

18:08

still think it would be amazing. And

18:11

you know, now, as my daughter Charlwood

18:13

is, she's eleven now, and I really

18:16

feel like I want something like that for

18:18

her, And there are other things that do a

18:20

lot of what Sassy did, but

18:23

but not not exactly the same,

18:26

not with the same spirit. Yeah,

18:28

so now I'd be thrilled to do that. I

18:31

still also want to start one, by the way,

18:33

for older women too. I still think that there should

18:35

be a print magazine for

18:38

the next age group up,

18:40

like for for women that I mean there

18:43

is, there's more magazine, but I think that there should

18:45

be something that's really progressive UM

18:48

for women, like yeah for needless.

18:51

Well, speaking of which, those

18:53

are all the questions that I sent to Laura for you.

18:55

But are there any things that I haven't asked

18:58

you about specifically future play ends,

19:00

things we can look forward to from EXO

19:03

Jane and Jane Pratt Um.

19:05

You know, we do those things to UM

19:09

to try to also

19:11

in the spirit of empowering other

19:14

women and making them feel good about so it was just the

19:16

way that they are. We've done those things

19:18

like um uh, like

19:20

taking a picture of our face when we first woke

19:22

up in the morning and putting it on, putting

19:25

on the site, have another woman do that or whatever. So

19:27

we're actually because it's like because

19:30

we started this thing where we said, um,

19:32

we want to get that labeled Vicky

19:34

body. We wanted to take that and go, what

19:37

is it the key body? Anyway, it's the

19:39

body that you put into a bikint That's it.

19:41

So we're all going to get together and um,

19:43

take a picture of all of us in our bikinis

19:47

on the site and challenge other women to do the

19:49

same thing. I think that's great. I

19:53

can't promise that my co host Caroline would do

19:55

it with me, but I would do that. I

19:57

think that women need to see more just

20:00

bodies exactly. Well,

20:05

thanks so so much to Jane

20:07

Pratt and the x Ray Jane Staffords who

20:10

helped set up this interview. She was

20:12

a lot of fun to talk to and I

20:14

hope a lot of fun to listen to as

20:16

well. So, Caroline, if today

20:19

you had to write and it happened

20:21

to me exo Jane essay, what

20:24

would it be? Well,

20:26

right off the top of my head, I'm like, I have

20:28

so many humiliating things that

20:30

have happened to me and that I have caused

20:33

to happen to me in my life. I

20:35

don't know. Maybe I could write one that it happened

20:37

to me. I was jealous of my dog?

20:40

What kind of dog? And why were you jealous?

20:42

It was a stray that my parents adopted

20:45

when I was like five, and

20:47

I was an only child, keep in mind,

20:50

and I was always the apple of my parents

20:53

eye. And suddenly there was this cute little black dog

20:55

in the house, and well, I loved it because

20:57

I loved animals. I was also insanely

20:59

jealous, and so I would like push it out of its

21:01

bed to sleep in the dog bed, and

21:04

I would push it off the sofa and stuff, and

21:06

my parents finally had to give it to their contractor.

21:09

Caroline, I can sense some lingering

21:11

to stay in your voice because you haven't. You

21:13

haven't even referred to the dog by its

21:15

name. What was its name? Beasley? Beasley

21:19

Beasley. Oh man,

21:21

that's a good one. It's a really good

21:23

one. I mean, I'm sure I could think

21:25

of some other crazy,

21:28

crazy Caroline child things. Yes,

21:30

so so many I think along

21:33

those similar lines. The first thing that

21:35

pops into my head is, uh,

21:37

it happened to me I was a childhood sleepwalker.

21:40

Oh yeah, that was a weird

21:42

phase. She's just bits

21:44

and pieces of memories. So

21:47

anyway, thanks again

21:49

so much to Jane Pratt for taking

21:51

the time to talk with us, and I

21:54

hope that there is some form

21:57

of Sassy that launches. And hey, Jane,

21:59

if you're listening, I'm just gonna to put this out there. If

22:01

you're looking for some cracker Jack women,

22:04

writers, reporters, editors, whatever,

22:07

we know some people us.

22:10

Yeah, yes, yeah, it's us. So

22:12

with that. If there are any EXO

22:14

Jane Sassy, Jane Pratt, etcetera.

22:17

Fans out there who want to write in, let

22:19

us know. Mom Stuff at how stuff

22:22

works dot com is our email address. You can also

22:24

tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

22:26

send us a message on Facebook,

22:29

and we have a couple of messages to share

22:31

with you right now. Well,

22:38

I have a Facebook message from a little while

22:40

back from Carrie who writes, thank

22:42

you, thank you, thank you in all caps

22:44

for addressing the issue of body shaming,

22:46

particularly thin shaming. I

22:48

completely agree with you, and he said that this isn't an

22:50

issue that has been a topic of conversation until recently,

22:53

but it's something I've struggled with my entire life.

22:55

I'm twenty six years old, five one and pounds.

22:59

Growing up, my mom always encouraged me to feel

23:01

good about my petite figure and embrace it,

23:03

even when all the girls around me were getting the

23:05

curves I wanted. I've dealt

23:07

with the long standing internal struggle of feeling

23:09

good about my body, but also torn between

23:12

being envious of curve your women and

23:14

guilty when my friends complain about their weight

23:16

and make me feel bad for being naturally skinny.

23:19

They can complain about being bigger, but God forbid

23:21

I say anything negative about being small.

23:24

This all came to a head for me about four years ago

23:26

when I went to see my doctor for a physical exam.

23:28

She came straight out and asked me if I

23:30

was interrexic. When I told her that I wasn't

23:33

and that I eat well, but I've always been small, she

23:35

pressed the issue by asking me if I have a problem

23:37

with food and suggested that I quote

23:39

try eating. I haven't been back

23:41

to a doctor since real women

23:44

have curves. How about real women

23:46

are just women? Well,

23:48

thanks, Carrie. Well. I have a message here

23:51

from Merrily responding to a

23:53

video that Kristen did about saying no

23:56

to sex, and she

23:58

says thank you for posting this. It

24:00

took me a long time to realize that I could say

24:02

no. I grew up in a house where it was easier

24:04

to ignore topics like sex than to actually talk

24:07

about it. That attitude, mixed

24:09

with having been molested, truly warped my

24:11

views on sex. It was just something that

24:13

men wanted for me and enjoyed, but none

24:15

too often I felt obligated. It wasn't

24:17

until I was in college the idea was

24:19

even mentioned to me. I was closing up the

24:21

cal Zone shop I worked for with a girlfriend,

24:24

saying that I could just walk to my dorm.

24:26

I didn't want to call my then boyfriend because I knew

24:29

he would just want to have sex and it would be unfair to

24:31

say no. My friend lost it, saying

24:33

that I could always say no if I didn't want to.

24:35

Such a simple concept I had never actually

24:38

even faced before Today, I

24:40

have a much healthier grasp on my life, both

24:42

sexually and mentally, not just because

24:44

of my friend's rant, but also from

24:46

meeting my now significant other slash

24:48

father of my child. He truly showed

24:50

me what it means to respect myself and be the confident,

24:53

mature and happy woman I am today.

24:55

So I'm glad you're doing well, Merrily,

24:58

and thanks for writing in, and thanks

25:00

to everybody who's written into us Mom stuff

25:02

at how stuff works dot com is our

25:04

email address and for links to all of

25:06

our social media outlets, including every

25:08

single one of our blog post, videos,

25:11

and podcast there's one place

25:13

to go, and it's stuff Mom Never Told

25:16

You dot com.

25:20

For more on this and thousands of other topics,

25:23

is it how stuff works dot com