0:03

Welcome to stuff Mom Never told

0:05

you from house top boards dot com. Hello,

0:12

and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm

0:14

Caroline. And last fall,

0:17

a series of greeting cards caught

0:20

mine and a lot of people on the internet's

0:22

attention, which might

0:25

sound kind of strange because greeting

0:27

cards. Why why the greeting

0:29

cards matter? Well, these were greeting cards that you've

0:31

probably never

0:34

really seen before because they were greeting

0:36

cards about miscarriage.

0:38

And I think what's so refreshing

0:40

and what probably grabbed so many people's attention

0:43

is that the messages on the cards

0:46

are so open, honest,

0:48

straightforward and to the point, uh,

0:50

their messages that you don't typically see in

0:53

your average uh sympathy card.

0:55

Well, yeah, because we don't even talk about miscarriage

0:58

to begin with. And when we

1:00

did a podcast about miscarriage

1:04

a little while back, and one

1:06

of the things that we focused in on is

1:08

the stigma and taboo

1:10

around it and the fact that a lot of people

1:12

who experienced them rarely

1:15

talk about it um and end

1:17

up going through sometimes a private

1:19

grieving process. And so Dr

1:23

Jessica Zucker, who were talking to

1:25

today, who's an l A based clinical

1:28

psychologist and writer specializing

1:30

in women's reproductive and maternal

1:32

mental health started

1:35

this line of greeting cards

1:38

too foster these

1:40

kinds of conversations UM

1:43

and myth busting as well around

1:45

miscarriage that we so sorely

1:47

need, and they were inspired by

1:50

the response that she had after launching

1:52

the hashtag I had a miscarriage

1:55

in UM,

1:57

timed with a New York Times p that

2:00

she published about her miscarriage

2:02

experience, which prompted just an

2:05

outpouring of responses from

2:08

for mostly women, thanking her for

2:10

saying things that had happened to them similarly,

2:12

but that they've never really felt comfortable

2:15

or free to talk about. Yeah, because

2:17

despite the fact that about fifteen

2:20

percent of recognized pregnancies

2:22

end in miscarriage, there

2:25

is this culture of silence

2:27

and shame and stigma around

2:29

it that somehow it's your

2:31

own personal failing as a person

2:34

or as a parent that this happened, and

2:36

that couldn't be further from the truth. And

2:38

breaking that silence and also providing

2:41

more education around this issue has

2:43

really become a personal mission for

2:46

Dr Zucker, who we're talking to UM

2:48

and for a little bit of background

2:51

on her, she earned a master's ny

2:53

U in public health with a focus on international

2:56

reproductive issues, and she worked

2:58

for the Harvard School of Public Health. So,

3:00

in other words, she's a real smart

3:02

lady. Um, and she also earned

3:05

another master's in psychology and human

3:07

development at Harvard with a goal

3:09

of shifting from global to an

3:11

interpersonal focus. And

3:14

when she experienced though the

3:16

sixteen week miscarriage,

3:19

as she's written about, it really again

3:22

shifted the focus of her entire career, as

3:24

she'll talk to us more about in

3:26

this episode. But we were so happy

3:29

to have a chance to hear

3:31

from Dr Zucker not only

3:33

about the I Had a Miscarriage

3:36

greeting cards, but also her insights on

3:39

on these cultural issues that we

3:41

need to untangle. Yeah,

3:43

and so now let's hear from Dr

3:45

Zucker. Well,

3:50

Dr Zucker, to get things started, would you mind

3:53

introducing yourself to our listeners

3:55

and tell them a little bit about your background

3:57

and what you do. Sure, thank

4:00

you so much for having me on your show. Um.

4:02

My name is Dr Jessica Zooker, and I'm a

4:04

Los Angeles based psychologist specializing

4:07

in women's reproductive and maternal mental

4:10

health. Last year I

4:13

launched the I Had a miscarriage

4:16

hashtag campaign with my first

4:18

New York Times Peace and this

4:21

October I launched a line of pregnancy

4:23

Lost cards. Now you're really curious

4:26

about whether you had envisioned

4:29

these greeting cards

4:31

sort of as you were putting the hashtag

4:33

together, or whether that was something that

4:36

came afterwards, sort of how did you how did all of that

4:38

fall into place? Well,

4:40

actually know at that time, um,

4:44

well, soon after my miscarriage. So my miscarriage

4:46

was a sixteen week loss, uh

4:49

three years ago, and I,

4:53

you know, had specialized in this particular

4:55

field long before I experienced

4:58

miscarriage myself, and

5:00

as a psychologist, it was sort of you know,

5:02

tricky to think through do

5:05

I want to put sort of my personal story

5:07

out there in the world, um,

5:10

you know, because typically therapy

5:13

is obviously so much more about the patient

5:16

and the person's story who's

5:18

sitting in front of me. But I felt

5:20

like it would model something

5:23

that I strongly believe in, which is

5:25

this idea that you know. Unfortunately,

5:27

the research shows that so many women are reporting

5:29

feeling a sense of guilt and shame and self

5:32

blame after a pregnancy loss, and

5:34

so by initiating this hashtag campaign,

5:37

it was sort of a way to UM

5:40

and you know, alongside the essay

5:42

that I wrote, which had the you know, all the

5:44

details of my traumatic

5:46

loss. You know, it's a way to

5:48

sort of model this idea that we

5:51

can share our stories and we don't infect

5:53

each other by sharing our stories. We

5:55

can't you know, have a loss

5:57

because we're talking about loss. And

6:00

we all sort of of course know that UM

6:02

intellectually, but it seems

6:04

that people you know are UM

6:08

somewhat you know, afraid to to share

6:10

about loss in our culture. UM

6:13

talking about out of water losses and something

6:15

that that people tend to do. So

6:18

at the time, I

6:20

was writing mostly about

6:22

the politics of pregnancy

6:25

lass and then with that

6:27

particular piece I got very

6:29

personal. And

6:32

then I went on to do an illustrated

6:34

piece that's up on modern lass

6:37

UM with this really

6:39

talented cartoonist UM,

6:42

moving away from the essay and sort

6:44

of trying to give people basically

6:46

like a how to guide on what to say

6:48

and what not to say after somebody experiences

6:51

a pregnancy loss. So soon

6:53

after that, I think that was in the summer

6:56

UM I conceived of the idea

6:58

of creating these cars. It's and basically

7:00

it felt like a natural next step,

7:03

you know, sort of trying to reach

7:05

as many people as possible. I have a background

7:08

in international public health and worked in

7:10

international women's health for quite some time,

7:12

and so I

7:14

wanted to reach people who I

7:17

might never see in my office. And I wanted

7:19

to provide a way for people to actually

7:21

connect after loss, rather

7:24

than sort of going to this typical, you

7:26

know, place of silence or oh

7:29

I just didn't know what to say, so I didn't say anything

7:31

at all. This way people

7:34

can actually connect and

7:36

provide support in a meaningful

7:38

way. Well, one important

7:40

conversation that your card sparked

7:43

was what not to say to people

7:45

in this situation and why are sentiments

7:48

like it happens for a reason, or

7:50

well, at least you know, you can get pregnant often

7:53

so unhelpful. True,

7:57

people say these things, and I think they

8:01

think somehow that it's helpful

8:03

or supportive or loving

8:06

by you know, but they don't understand that

8:09

that potentially this minimizes the

8:12

magnitude of the loss. And for

8:14

a lot of women, you know, a loss

8:16

of six weeks is incredibly meaningful,

8:19

and for others it isn't. And so

8:21

we can't assume to know how people

8:24

feel after loss,

8:26

and so to kind of about

8:29

you know, various

8:31

latitudes. Um,

8:34

it's just often more

8:36

hurtful than helpful. The

8:38

more I've thought about these, though, the more

8:40

I realized that I think it's actually a way for

8:42

the person who's saying them to feel better rather

8:45

than the person they're saying it too. So

8:47

when it comes to sort of the

8:49

opposite of people saying things to make anyone

8:51

feel better, but the more typical

8:54

silence and the internalized

8:56

shame that can happen around miscarriage,

8:59

what do you think is in in

9:01

our culture that kind of promotes it And how

9:04

does silencing and not talking

9:06

about it impact the

9:08

physical and emotional healing process.

9:11

I think our culture struggles,

9:14

particularly when it comes

9:16

to out of order losses. So

9:19

when a grandparent dies, people typically

9:22

know what to do, you know, they send a card,

9:24

they send flowers, they send food,

9:26

they come, you know, they attend the funeral.

9:30

But with a loss like this, people

9:33

really aren't armed with the

9:35

tools um to talk

9:37

about it or to sort of extend

9:41

um support because

9:44

we get just I guess overwhelmed

9:46

by not knowing you know, what to

9:49

do, and so the silence

9:51

often comes though from

9:53

not knowing what to do. And

9:55

I think I'm trying with the cards

9:58

to encourage people to almost

10:00

no longer be able to say this, or

10:02

no longer be able to have an

10:05

excuse really to go

10:07

silent, because

10:10

women and you know their partners

10:12

are often in a

10:14

lot of emotional pain after

10:16

a loss and feel

10:19

quite confused about the future, bewildered

10:22

by what happened, maybe feeling alienated

10:25

from their bodies, maybe you

10:27

know, incredibly afraid of the future.

10:30

So many different things come up,

10:33

and so it's important

10:35

that we have

10:38

more of an openness and can

10:41

more easily talk about grief and

10:43

loss and sort of normalize

10:46

this um And I

10:48

think in part because no one has sort of

10:50

met this, this thing, this

10:53

developing thing or you know, this the

10:55

fetus or whatever, people

10:59

don't sort of acknowledge

11:01

it as a true loss,

11:04

right, so they go on to sort of potentially

11:06

minimize it by saying, well, you know, something's

11:09

wrong with the baby anywhere. Aren't you just glad that

11:11

it happened this way? And

11:14

you know, looking for silver

11:16

lining or bright spots when there might not

11:18

be any. Well, and one

11:20

thing that jumps out to me in the

11:22

cards as well is that it allows room

11:25

for women to not only be sad and to

11:27

grieve, but also to be angry.

11:29

And that was something that you so rarely

11:32

see in when

11:34

it comes to women in general permissions to be angry,

11:37

but especially in these kinds of situations.

11:40

It's so true, and why can't

11:42

we have a range of feelings and have

11:44

that be okay? And you know, the

11:47

truth is, feelings aren't facts.

11:50

So one day we could say, you know,

11:53

loss like the card says, and

11:55

the next day feel it's totally differently

11:58

about it right or the next or a month

12:00

or year. So feelings change anyway.

12:02

So again it's like, let's we can

12:04

try a little bit harder, I think, to feel

12:08

comfortable in whatever it is that we're

12:10

feeling, because it will change. Anger,

12:12

of course, is an expected part of

12:15

of losing something or of being afraid

12:17

to not be able to have what you

12:20

want, and in this case that would be a baby.

12:24

Well do you think that dads could use

12:26

these cards too? I

12:29

would love them too. I

12:32

have sent the cards to just a

12:34

few men so far.

12:37

Um, it's something I'm thinking about

12:40

in terms of the future because

12:43

I realized that, you

12:45

know, the communication

12:47

I think in the cards it seems a

12:50

lot more feminine based

12:53

UM, and so yeah,

12:55

I need to sort of work

12:57

on that a little bit, you know, because it's like, get

13:00

the card that says I'm deeply sorry for your

13:02

loss, if it just stopped there, but because

13:04

I wrote I'm here always, I just

13:06

felt like a man may not send

13:08

something that says that. So

13:11

sort of along those same lines, Uh,

13:13

what did you think when Mark Zuckerberg

13:16

and announcing him and his wife's

13:19

pregnancy also included there's

13:22

openness about the miscarriages that

13:24

they had experienced along the way too. I mean that seemed

13:26

like a huge milestone, especially for a

13:29

guy to be saying this well,

13:31

and especially him right, so

13:34

when whenever somebody sort of in the spotlight

13:37

shares their story, it does help

13:39

to destigmatize UM,

13:41

an issue that many people aren't talking about.

13:44

So I thought that was incredibly powerful, And

13:46

Good Morning America reached out to me a

13:49

couple of days later and wanted to talk

13:51

to me about the initiation of the hashtag

13:53

campaign and my work around

13:55

pregnancy loss, because you know, I mean,

13:58

it is interesting, you know, he shared the

14:00

news once they were having

14:03

a successful pregnancy, and I

14:05

think that's you know, an interesting thing for us to

14:07

think about that oftentimes women who

14:09

UM aren't sort of in that positive

14:12

place or on the other side, I guess,

14:14

of of their loss, you

14:16

know, may feel like, well, how come we didn't

14:19

share this sooner? Or um.

14:21

You know, some people are even really advocating

14:24

for sharing about being pregnant

14:26

a lot sooner because in our culture

14:29

typically people feel a pressure to wait

14:31

to share their news until their twelve

14:33

weeks along UM because

14:36

you know, miscarried just often happened

14:38

within the first trimester, and so you

14:41

know, these are just some interesting things to think about.

14:43

But I do think that the

14:46

more people share their stories,

14:49

UM, the more we melt away this

14:51

silence that doesn't need to exist, and

14:53

that it actually creates more pain

14:56

UM for the people going through it. Do

15:00

you think that telling people you're pregnant

15:02

earlier on is part of

15:04

sort of fostering a sense of support

15:06

and community UM or not.

15:09

What do you advise your patients in terms

15:11

of sharing their pregnancy timeline? Well,

15:14

I do actually think

15:17

that UM sharing

15:20

early ken of course bring

15:23

more support if something were to go

15:25

wrong, because I think this

15:27

idea that not telling doesn't

15:30

really foster anything

15:33

except the feeling of kind of a loneness,

15:35

you know. I mean unless somebody just personally

15:37

does want to know, marinate

15:39

on this exciting um experience

15:42

on their own or just with their partner or something,

15:45

that's one thing. But to not share because

15:47

of a worry that something might go wrong,

15:50

I don't think behooves us as a culture.

15:53

Um. It doesn't bring

15:56

the support that we do need, whether

15:58

things go well or things don't go well. And

16:01

in terms of advising my patients, I

16:04

I'm more interested, I think, with with the

16:06

individual in terms of sort of what they're

16:09

feeling, what they're um

16:12

fears are, what their excitement

16:14

is all about, what their hopes are. UM.

16:17

So if somebody, for example,

16:20

wants to share early, then I'm

16:23

you know, supportive of that. But if

16:25

somebody has had let's say,

16:27

you know, three losses or late

16:29

term terminations because something was

16:31

wrong with the baby or something, and they don't

16:34

feel um comfortable

16:37

you know sharing with anybody, I

16:39

understand that too, you know. So it really

16:41

just depends, I think on the individual. I mean, we

16:44

we grieve so differently, and

16:47

you know, some like I said earlier,

16:49

some people have an early loss

16:51

and grief. Some people have an early loss

16:53

and don't some people have a late loss and

16:56

see it, you know, want

16:59

to sort of see it is like, oh, this is

17:01

a sign or you know something. And so

17:04

we we just kind of deal with our um

17:07

grief and our losses in such

17:09

different and individual

17:12

ways, and so I think it just helps

17:15

us to have a broader sense

17:17

of normalizing all

17:19

of that. Well, and I have to

17:21

wonder as well, how much

17:23

of the sort of recommendation

17:26

to wait to

17:28

tell um later in a pregnancy

17:31

is more to protect the person who's pregnant

17:33

from more disappointment

17:36

and sense of loss, or more to protect us so

17:38

that we, you know, have less of

17:41

this kind of awkward grief that we're

17:43

obviously not so great dealing with.

17:46

That's exactly what I think. Yeah,

17:48

yeah, And why is it so awkward? See?

17:51

I think it's so fascinating, Like why

17:53

is it hard for us to simply say

17:56

I'm so sorry for your loss and I'm here.

18:00

Because some of my patients say, you know, they don't

18:02

love when people say to them, tell me what I

18:04

can do for you. It's like, we'll just do something

18:06

for me. I don't need to have to tell you what to do

18:08

for me or whatever. So it's it's so

18:10

simple, so we can simply say,

18:13

you know, I'm here

18:16

and we are going to hear more from our chat

18:18

with Dr Zucker and we come right back from a quick

18:21

break.

18:33

Well, I was reading through a lot of the comments

18:36

on your New York Times column, which

18:38

was fantastic and just incredible

18:40

to see all of the stories that

18:42

we're coming out of that, and just the

18:45

relief that so many women felt

18:47

having an opportunity to share. And

18:49

going back to what you said a few minutes ago about

18:51

how we don't infect each other by

18:53

sharing our stories. Um,

18:56

there was one comment or who noted that she

18:58

was afraid to talk about

19:00

her miscarriage for fear that it

19:03

might jinks future

19:05

pregnancies. So how

19:08

might someone you know, how how would you work

19:10

through that kind of worry?

19:12

And I mean was that a worry that you had to kind

19:15

of work through with your own pregnancies

19:17

as well? Well, that's a good question.

19:19

You mean my subsequent pregnancy after my loss.

19:21

Yeah, I

19:24

was terrified for

19:28

the entire pregnancy, and

19:31

I you know, had

19:33

the testing done, the chromosomal

19:36

testing done, um as

19:38

early as possible, and got you know the

19:40

news that things were healthy. But I nevertheless

19:43

I had a really hard time believing

19:46

it. And um

19:48

that's in part you know why

19:50

I created that hard that is about

19:53

being pregnant after pregnancy loss, because

19:56

if one in four pregnancies

19:59

result in loss, that

20:01

means there's so many women walking around in bodies

20:05

that have lost something that they wanted um

20:08

and especially if they go on to get

20:11

pregnant again. It's sort of like that

20:13

means there's so many people experiencing

20:15

fear um at least for

20:18

for some period of time. And so

20:20

in terms of you know, this

20:22

idea of jinxing, the

20:24

way I would work through that with a patient is really

20:26

talking about like, you know, it makes sense.

20:29

You're anxious, you

20:31

know, you're worried that by talking

20:33

about bad things or

20:35

things that could go wrong, that

20:38

somehow just even putting that energy

20:40

out there are those words you know out there

20:42

that somehow that's going to make it happen. And

20:45

and that's sort of magical thinking, right.

20:47

It's just like that's what our kids say,

20:50

like, oh, the moon is following me, you know, um

20:53

so, and that it

20:56

tends to happen more after trauma

20:58

or after loss or with increased

21:00

anxiety, that we think that somehow

21:03

we can impact things that we really can't.

21:06

So by talking about you

21:08

know, disease or terror,

21:11

or or or pregnancy

21:13

loss or any of these you know, difficult

21:15

and awful things, it doesn't

21:18

increase the likelihood of them happening. Well,

21:22

what would you say helped you the most in processing

21:24

your own loss and then going on to try

21:27

again? M hmm. I

21:29

think that the way that

21:31

I've made piece, I guess

21:33

with my experience is really through my writing.

21:36

Of course, I'm a big

21:38

advocate of being in therapy, so

21:41

that kind of goes about sayings since I'm a

21:43

psychologist. But uh,

21:46

in addition to that, writing about

21:48

my experience really helped me,

21:51

you know, sort of investigate various

21:54

crevices of my pain,

21:57

of my of the complexity

22:00

of loss. I have connected

22:03

with so many wonderful women

22:05

in organizations worldwide at this point.

22:08

That also helped me get through my loss because

22:10

I felt such a sense of community and

22:12

connectedness that I wouldn't have felt

22:14

otherwise. Um.

22:17

So yeah, I mean, I I

22:20

went on to get pregnant, I think about four months

22:22

after my loss, and each

22:25

day you know, had its struggles,

22:29

and so I think though the more

22:31

that I sort of again looked

22:34

at each element. Why do women feel

22:36

ashamed? Why are we blaming ourselves?

22:38

Why? You know, how can it be

22:40

that the statistics are this high and we're

22:42

living though, in a culture that's basically

22:45

silent about something so normative

22:47

and and typical. Um.

22:51

And so, you know, getting

22:53

deep into all of that from

22:55

I guess the political perspective and then also

22:58

the personal really helped me feel

23:01

I guess capable of walking

23:03

through this again. But until my

23:05

daughter was born, UM,

23:08

I was worried. So you mentioned

23:10

writing, and it reminds me of how

23:13

I've heard a lot of therapists

23:15

recommend women who have had traumatic

23:17

birth experiences right their birth story

23:20

as part of the healing process and write

23:22

it over and over again, however many times they need to.

23:25

Would you also recommend,

23:27

you know, maybe women should be

23:29

writing their miscarriage stories as

23:31

well, or there's still birth stories. I mean, what it

23:33

sounds like that was such a therapeutic

23:36

process for you. Yeah,

23:39

I think that's an important question, you

23:41

know, because, um,

23:44

you would think because I initiated

23:46

this hashtag, which is so public

23:48

and sort of like you know, puts it out

23:50

here in such a major way,

23:52

that I might feel like, oh, everyone should

23:55

probably do this. I I

23:57

think writing is

24:00

inevitably helpful for a lot

24:02

of people. Um, But whether or not

24:04

they kind of share that privately, you know, publicly

24:07

or keep it private, I think is totally

24:10

up to them. So um,

24:13

you know, because some people have had reactions

24:15

to some of my writing like, well, not everybody

24:17

feels this way or not everybody has to talk

24:19

about it or not everybody has to, you

24:22

know, um start a campaign

24:25

related to it. And I I couldn't

24:27

agree more. I just

24:29

feel like this is something that

24:32

I need to do, and it's so

24:34

connected to my work and it's so now

24:36

connected to my heart that I

24:38

can't not do it. But I think,

24:41

yes, writing about a traumatic birth experience

24:43

sounds like a very important way to process

24:46

the pain. And you

24:48

know, therapy, of course can be

24:50

helpful because therapy is typically

24:52

you know, maybe once a week for fifty minutes or twice

24:54

a week whatever. Um.

24:57

Writing is just can be

24:59

continuous and it's right there, um

25:02

dependent paper. So I think, yeah,

25:04

I think that's a really important, uh

25:07

healing possibility.

25:10

Well, along those lines, I'm interested in hearing

25:13

in the wake of both the hashtag and

25:15

the cards and all of the attention that they've

25:17

gotten. Have you learned anything

25:20

from the people who are participating

25:22

in the hashtag or anything that's surprised

25:25

you were you surprised by any

25:27

of the things that you heard from people who

25:29

had gone through this as well. I

25:32

think I'm surprised by,

25:36

you know, the fact that so many

25:38

people feel ashamed,

25:40

and you know, now it's I've read

25:43

so much of the research now, and so I

25:45

guess I shouldn't be surprised that I'm still I'm

25:47

concerned riot that

25:51

this many women are feeling

25:54

a sense of alienation

25:57

from their bodies or in their bodies, and

25:59

feeling less at home in their skin and

26:04

thinking that somehow, you know, maybe

26:06

by exercising or having sex

26:08

or having a sip of wine, you

26:10

know that somehow they created this

26:13

loss. And uh

26:15

so I've heard just so much of that, you know, over

26:18

the years now since I

26:21

came out with my story, you know, women

26:23

sharing that somehow, you

26:25

know, did they do that? Did they do something

26:28

to deserve this, which is again, you know, an example

26:30

of magical thinking, where it's like people

26:33

actually think that maybe oh if I maybe

26:36

I didn't want to babe badly enough, and

26:38

that's why this happened, or you know,

26:40

maybe it's because I

26:43

wasn't nice to someone in junior high and

26:45

so this is the harma or you

26:47

know, some sort of boomerang

26:49

effect, you know, and again

26:53

that's just not possible. And so it's that

26:55

that is disheartening

26:58

to know that this people are

27:00

feeling this way. And again this is part of my

27:02

sort of inspiration for talking

27:05

so much about it and trying to

27:07

be part of culture

27:09

that's normalizing grief rather than keeping

27:12

it quiet or or you know,

27:15

lathering on more shame. Well,

27:17

we're really curious, especially since

27:19

the podcast is stuff mom never told you.

27:21

You were always curious about advice

27:24

from moms to daughters. And

27:26

if your daughter ever gets pregnant, what

27:28

what do you think your advice will be just for the whole

27:31

experience. Mm

27:33

hmm. That's

27:36

such an important question. You know. It's interesting

27:38

that you say that, because this morning

27:41

I was changing her out of her pajamas

27:45

into her pose and changing her diaper

27:47

and just kind of gazing into

27:49

her eyes and thinking about all

27:52

that I've been through and what kind of

27:55

took to to get her I guess um,

27:58

and how different I feel about her

28:00

in a way. Then then I felt after

28:02

having my son, you know, when when pregnancy

28:04

had been so easy and um,

28:07

and I hadn't known sort of heartbreak

28:09

at that point. And UM,

28:12

so I well, I hope that

28:16

I make her proud, um

28:19

so, you know, meaning like when

28:22

she's older or old enough to know that

28:24

this is something that I've done with my life,

28:27

you know that I created these cards and that

28:29

I'm hoping to help you know,

28:31

impact or society

28:34

in terms of the discussion around all this. I

28:36

hope that she even would

28:38

feel comfortable with

28:40

whatever feelings arise for her in terms

28:42

of getting pregnant, um,

28:45

you know, or choosing

28:48

not to get pregnant, or if

28:50

she were to have a loss, you know, to

28:52

be able to kind of express herself

28:55

whatever the feelings might be. I

28:58

actually have one, um final question

29:01

that maybe could help give

29:04

some perspective to our listeners. Um.

29:08

You know, there there is such a struggle, it seems like,

29:10

to figure out the right thing to say to someone

29:12

who's experienced such a loss.

29:16

And I'm wondering, from

29:18

your perspective, what happens

29:20

both emotionally and sort of in

29:22

your social and family circle. What

29:24

what happens once all of those condolences

29:28

and cards and hugs have stopped

29:30

because it seems like, you know, with the awkwardness

29:33

in our culture that we feel around

29:35

loss, everyone else is so

29:37

ready to move on. But where does that

29:39

leave you? Yes,

29:43

and thank you for bringing this up. I

29:46

really try to drive home

29:49

a sense of consistency in

29:51

a majority of the cards that I created,

29:53

so that people would understand, like,

29:56

you know, I'm here for you right now

29:58

and I'm here for you always or if

30:01

you want to call me morning, noon and night. Do

30:03

you know it's like, because I

30:07

felt very alone

30:10

at some point, um, soon

30:12

after my loss, and all the love

30:15

was there, all the support was available,

30:17

but I still I felt pretty isolated.

30:20

Um because typically what a

30:22

month later people aren't gonna, you

30:25

know, call you up and ask

30:27

about how you're feeling about your loss. Why

30:29

not? I'm not quite sure,

30:32

but I needed that, And

30:35

um

30:37

that's why I think these cards can be sent

30:39

sort of at any time, you know, And

30:43

I think that we need to kind

30:45

of be

30:48

more comfortable in the uncomfortablelity

30:51

that law springs. So

30:53

again, you know, if it's a grandparent, it feels

30:56

very different. I think people you

30:58

know might ask about it if you were

31:00

particularly close to that person, or

31:04

they may not because it was a kind of a normative

31:06

loss. You know, hopefully they lived along and meaningful

31:08

life and so uh that's

31:11

that. But I think with something

31:13

like this again, it's people are hoping that you

31:16

forget about it, or that you move

31:18

into getting pregnant again and you focus

31:20

on the good news, or you focus on

31:23

something you know, quote unquote

31:25

positive, and

31:28

then you're kind of stuck though with these

31:31

feelings on your own. So I

31:34

would urge people to try to show

31:36

up her people later.

31:39

So even you know, six months after a loss.

31:42

And now I'm of course biased

31:44

in terms of my loss was, you know, so

31:46

much later than the typical loss.

31:49

So someone with a way earlier

31:51

laws may not be resonating

31:53

with what I'm saying. They may not want someone to bring

31:55

it up six months later. But I know for

31:58

me, it would have been so helpful if if and just

32:00

kind of texted me saying, you know, just thinking

32:02

of you, if you ever want to talk, or you ever want

32:04

to scream, or you ever want to then,

32:06

or you ever want to just you

32:09

know, tell me the whole story or not

32:11

at all, whatever. Anything.

32:14

I just felt there was kind of this closed

32:17

door after a certain

32:19

period of time. Now,

32:21

I'm just curious as someone

32:24

so busy. You have two kids, you're

32:26

practicing therapists, you have the cards,

32:29

you have hashtag that went viral, So

32:31

what possibly could be the next

32:35

Oh, that is a very good question.

32:37

I I would like to know

32:40

that too. Um,

32:42

raising these little people and

32:45

continuing on in in this work,

32:47

you know. So I don't know. I mean, there's

32:51

a part of me that wants to commit to a book. There's

32:53

a part of me that doesn't. Um.

32:56

I just I don't know yet. I'm

32:59

not sure that I know that this is

33:02

definitely something I will keep that for

33:04

quite some time. Well, we're very

33:06

glad to hear that, because we're

33:08

we're so excited to share this interview

33:10

with our listeners because anytime

33:13

we have talked about miscarriage

33:15

on the podcast, which is when we shared

33:18

the link about your cards, just

33:20

an outpouring of um

33:23

of responses from people. They're so

33:25

so eager and just

33:28

longing to talk about it and to hear about it and

33:30

to feel comforted from it. So

33:32

we really really do appreciate you taking the time.

33:34

Glad. Yeah, I really just hope that it creates

33:36

a sense of connectedness and

33:38

community. And again

33:41

because the statistics are so high, I

33:43

just I want people to feel less

33:46

alone, less ashamed, um,

33:49

and less self conscious about it. So

33:59

thank you again so much to Dr Jessica

34:02

Zucker for talking to us about

34:04

her work and about miscarriage

34:07

and still birth. And if you'd like

34:09

to learn more about her, you can go to her

34:11

website at Dr Jessica Zucker

34:13

dot com, which is also where you can buy

34:16

the Pregnancy Loss greeting

34:18

cards and sympathy cards UM. And

34:20

if you also want to learn more about

34:23

just the basic facts surrounding miscarriage,

34:25

you should head over to stuff Mo'm Never told you

34:28

dot com and listen to the podcast that

34:30

we did about that and listeners.

34:33

I'm I'm really curious to hear how

34:35

this conversation has resonated

34:37

with you and your experience.

34:40

Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is where you

34:42

can email us. You can also tweet

34:44

us at mom Stuff podcast or

34:46

messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of

34:48

messages to share with you right now.

34:56

Well, I have a letter here UM

34:58

from Jeffrey in response to our knitting

35:00

episode. I just finished listening

35:03

to the knitting episode and wanted to write in about

35:05

one of my New Year's resolutions, learning

35:07

to crochet. Owing to

35:09

the fact that I, like you too, have tried to learn

35:11

to knit in the past. To my ultimate despair,

35:14

I decided to see if my hands took any more

35:16

easily to the crochet hook. As it turns

35:18

out, my brain totally wraps around it's so much

35:20

more easily than it did knitting. I definitely

35:23

recommend trying it as a triumphant trade

35:25

for knitting, if that particular failure haunts

35:27

you as it haunted me. I'm only

35:30

a few weeks in, but already making great headway

35:32

and getting used to how it feels in my hands. But

35:35

the real reason I'm writing is more to the

35:37

gendered subject matter you brought up in the episode.

35:40

Being a gay male in New York City, I

35:42

don't much get askance looks if

35:44

I pull out my work in public. It's

35:46

New York and no one cares. I'm

35:48

crocheting on the subway. The guy next to

35:50

me might be conducting an imaginary orchestra. However,

35:53

my husband and I are planning a move to a more

35:55

rural area this summer, where I imagine

35:58

the level of at least in initial

36:00

surprise might be a good bit higher. I

36:02

don't expect a lot of judgment attached, but the occurrence

36:05

of a man crocheting is probably less

36:07

common and outside of major city

36:09

environments. I think people tend to notice more

36:11

and ask more questions, inadvertently

36:13

revealing their assumptions or biases.

36:16

I think it's an interesting phenomenon and wonder if

36:18

there's anything else you two might know about

36:21

the connections between gender and sexuality

36:23

stigmas, and metropolitan living versus

36:25

rural living. I think some things they

36:27

are easily assumed or just taking as common

36:29

sense, but I don't know much about

36:31

research to support what we all infer i

36:34

e. City folk are more high minded and our tolerant,

36:36

while the country folk are quicker to scrutinize

36:38

your question validity. It might make an interesting

36:41

episode, unless I've missed one in the past, and

36:43

all of that from a brief history of knitting.

36:46

Thank you for a super fun show. I'm a dedicated

36:48

listener to several House to Folks podcasts

36:50

and appreciate all the work you guys do to educate

36:53

us in an entertaining way. Well,

36:55

thank you, Jeffrey. We appreciate you listening, and no

36:57

we haven't done an episode looking at

37:00

stigmas and gender in city

37:02

versus rural living, but I guess

37:04

that's something tangentially. It's

37:06

kind of a thing we touch on in a lot of our episodes.

37:09

Yeah, it reminded me of our Farmer James

37:11

episode where we talk about the queer

37:14

farming movement. So they're

37:17

definitely rural areas out there that are

37:19

super progressive and very organic

37:21

as well. Delicious radishes. Thanks

37:23

Jeffrey. Well, I've got a let her here from Heather about

37:26

our feminist marriage episode, and she writes,

37:29

I started listening to your podcast when I had an

37:31

awful commute two hours each way.

37:33

Oh my goodness, Heather, and I enjoyed

37:35

it so much I've continued even though I no

37:37

longer have the commute. In fact, I often listen

37:40

while I'm cooking and have a bit of a chuckle about listening

37:42

to a feminist podcast while engaging in such

37:44

a stereotypically gendered activity.

37:47

Not only have your podcast helped me to embrace my

37:49

feminism, but it also feels like a great way

37:51

to engage in intellectual discourse post

37:54

grad school. What wonderful compliments.

37:56

Thank you, Heather. She goes on to say.

37:58

I want to especially thank you for your episode on the

38:00

feminist marriage, which struck a very personal

38:02

chord for me. Specifically, it helped me to

38:05

articulate some of the things I've been dealing with

38:07

and also to feel less alone in the process.

38:10

My husband and I got married in December fourteen

38:13

after a whirl win romance. We

38:15

met online, and he proposed after only three

38:17

months on the lot where we built our house.

38:20

I know I would want to roll my eyes

38:22

if this had not actually happened to me. I

38:24

feel grateful to have found someone so wonderful

38:26

to share my life with and to have a great story

38:28

about it. But still there's something almost

38:30

sad about going from an independent woman

38:32

to being described as someone's wife. Don't

38:35

get me wrong in a day to day since I'm very

38:37

happy. It's more on a philosophical

38:39

level that I struggle with the labels and expectations.

38:42

On top of that, we live in Texas, so

38:44

there is a very real societal pressure to

38:46

conform to certain relationship norms. My

38:49

husband is very supportive and understanding,

38:51

and we have the occasional discussion rather than the blowouts

38:53

described by Meg Keane. I do agree

38:56

that it's an ongoing process though, and

38:59

I also leave it is important to recognize

39:01

and be able to articulate how you're feeling.

39:04

Thanks for your hard work. I'm finding

39:06

the latter much easier and I feel

39:08

more normal for it. Well,

39:10

thank you so much Heather for writing

39:13

and I'm so happy to hear that the

39:15

podcast has been a source of comfort for

39:17

you and listeners. Again,

39:20

we want to hear from you as well. Mom

39:22

Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address

39:24

and for links to all of our social media as well

39:26

as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts,

39:30

with links to Dr Jessica

39:32

Zucker's work so you can learn more

39:35

about her. Head on over to stuff Mom

39:37

Never Told You dot com

39:43

for moralness and thousands of other topics.

39:46

Does it how stuff works dot com