Episode Transcript
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0:05
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to
0:07
STUFFMO never told you protection of I Heart Radio's House
0:09
to effort. We
0:19
have something pretty pretty special a
0:21
little different today. Yeah, yeah,
0:23
yeah. As you know, we've
0:26
been trying to shout out listeners
0:29
and other people we think are doing
0:31
cool things at the end of episodes and podcasts,
0:34
pasting podcast which Samantha
0:36
has been spearheading, um,
0:39
and we that
0:41
kind of came simultaneously
0:44
with another topic we want to talk about
0:46
and a podcast that we shouted out because
0:49
as we record this, not as you hear it in
0:52
classics sminty fashion of course. Um.
0:54
It is a Native American Heritage month November.
0:57
I thought we're a little closer all the time from
0:59
now than we have before. Yeah,
1:01
we're closing in, although
1:03
a little better now. I think it's just our
1:06
thing. Maybe maybe we should just stick with it.
1:08
Um. But this
1:10
is so confusing because we have
1:12
the episode we're talking about asn't published it, but you should
1:14
have heard it by now. Somebody we shouted
1:17
out, um has an amazing podcast, some
1:19
kind of brown podcast. Yes, Natalie Evans
1:21
is doing a fantastic job with some
1:23
kind of Brown. She's been on I think a year and a half. So
1:25
what she said, it's a podcast about
1:28
multi racial, biracial and
1:31
many multicultural ideas behind
1:34
and what it's like to be in that life or in
1:36
that moment. However, she identifies
1:38
as Indigenous Black Um
1:41
and she is very, very obviously passionate
1:43
about indigenous and Native Um
1:46
people and wanted to have their stories told,
1:48
which is I think it is very important as well.
1:51
And of course I mentioned a couple of times because
1:53
you know, I don't hear it often, but she
1:55
does include in a racial adoption as
1:58
a part of our conversation too, and loved
2:00
that because and I think I've talked about
2:02
as often. I feel really confused
2:04
about my identity a lot of the times because
2:07
my identity is conflicting to what I grew
2:09
up with with who I am, my actual ethnicity,
2:11
And so what she's doing is just fantastic.
2:13
And also she's looking into the LGBTQ plus
2:16
world and being inclusive, and
2:18
I love all of the things, and I feel
2:21
like it's very much in the spirit of smenting and what we
2:23
want to do and what we want to talk about. And
2:25
yeah, so when we saw her podcast,
2:28
and I was very excited about she was
2:30
doing UM red November, which
2:33
was highlighting the hashtag m M I W or
2:36
the missing and murdered Indigenous
2:38
women, and talking about those conversations
2:40
and trying to bring a lot more highlights than I
2:42
know you did an episode as well. So
2:45
it just flit in a line perfectly that
2:48
we try to connect and she was
2:50
so willing and so we were so
2:52
excited to have her on the show. Yeah.
2:55
And one of the things we
2:58
asked of her would be was
3:00
to talk about some some women
3:03
famous, well maybe not famous, but they
3:05
should be famous Indigenous women, UM,
3:07
that we we all should know more about.
3:09
And she was great adalyst,
3:12
Like how many I could go on and
3:14
on, UM. But we do want to say before
3:16
we get into this, just a general disclaimer,
3:19
and we do mention this in the interview, but history
3:22
is tricky when it comes
3:25
to I mean just in general
3:27
honestly, UM, but also when it comes
3:29
to colonization in the United States,
3:31
sources can be hard to come by.
3:33
And also UM pronunciations,
3:36
Uh yeah, because there's
3:38
no source like
3:41
today peek
3:43
behind the scenes. What I do. I
3:45
go to a pronunciation website.
3:47
If it's not on there, then I go to YouTube.
3:50
And try to find somebody saying whatever
3:53
it is that doesn't necessarily
3:55
exist for for the women,
3:58
um that we're going to talk about, so trying
4:01
our best. Feel free
4:03
to write is if you know, Yeah, I feel
4:05
free to write in and let us let us know that us
4:08
give us a gentle correction. Um.
4:15
But yeah, let's let's hop into the interview.
4:18
Ah. My name is Natalie Evans and
4:21
I'm the host of some kind of Brown podcast.
4:24
My podcast is mostly about mixed
4:26
in my multi racial life, cultural
4:29
issues and current events that are going
4:31
on, and exploring what it really means to
4:35
my multicultural or multi
4:38
racial sometimes bi racial
4:41
ethnic background isn't what that really means.
4:43
So we cover everything from
4:45
reconnecting the cultures to accepting
4:49
some of the negatives
4:51
or how to deal with things like you
4:53
know, the normal things like people putting their
4:56
hands in your hair and not
4:58
having boundaries. It's there's a
5:00
lot of things that kind of fall under under
5:03
that umbrella. But for
5:05
me specifically, I
5:07
am reconnecting with my native
5:10
Indigenous side, so I
5:12
get to document that through the
5:14
podcast and it led
5:16
to my Red November projects, which
5:18
I think is probably found me and what
5:21
we're talking about today right, and could you explain
5:23
a little bit about your Red November project, because yes,
5:25
that is one of the things I was like, Oh, this is awesome.
5:30
Uh, The November is
5:32
an actute passion project for me. It's
5:34
something that I wanted to do since I started.
5:37
I said that, like, I've had a podcast for a long time.
5:39
I had it for a year and a half. But it
5:43
is a series
5:45
that focuses on the m
5:47
M i W or Missing a Murdered Indigenous
5:50
Women, Girls two Spirit people
5:52
movements, and it
5:55
kind of approaches this systemic
5:57
problem from the angle of different
6:00
Native, non binary and
6:03
women in our different perspectives.
6:05
I talked to people from all different
6:08
walks of life and how it affects
6:10
us and some of the problems when
6:12
we're looking at the end my W movement went
6:14
so necessary, and the
6:17
fact that we can't find any information
6:19
on the women who are missing, and the
6:21
fact that we very
6:24
very rarely do any of these cases
6:27
or women get any kind of publicity. It's
6:30
something that's very painful and
6:32
something that is slowly coming to light.
6:34
And then really excited to see that people
6:37
are listening. Awesome,
6:39
UM, and we have you on here
6:41
today because I would say the work
6:44
that you do is fantastic and important,
6:46
and we wanted you to kind of have a
6:49
platform here with us to talk
6:51
to us about these different fights.
6:53
I guess is what the best way we can put it? UM
6:55
and movements that you guys are you are specifically
6:57
pushing through and trying to get noticed for, which is aesome
7:00
in your own podcasts which try to
7:02
highlight um, the different
7:05
cultures as well as the difficulties
7:07
and the issues of being multiracial,
7:09
biracial, all those things. And you had even included
7:12
UM international adoption, which applies to me.
7:14
You know, it's very excited to see
7:16
that, which we highlighted your podcast
7:19
on well episode that's coming
7:21
that we haven't published yet but has
7:23
already recorded there exist
7:26
publicly, I
7:29
didn't acknowledge it's happening. UM.
7:31
So today I asked
7:33
you to come on because it is UH Native
7:35
American Heritage Month as
7:38
we record that as we're recording, because yeah, by the time
7:40
this is published is over, we're a little
7:42
late. But to talk about
7:44
it always good to talk about, yes, as we
7:46
should UM. And so you
7:48
came on and you actually sent us a giant
7:51
list which I love, UH with the
7:53
things that you want to talk about people you want to talk about,
7:55
so let's go ahead and get started. Yeah,
7:57
okay, all right. You
8:00
told me that originally you were thinking about talking about
8:02
historical Native figures,
8:04
particularly women or two spirit people
8:07
and do you say massive lists,
8:09
But this is just a tiny,
8:12
tiny, little list of amazing
8:14
women that you can look into. In
8:18
a lot of Native Native cultures, women
8:21
are kind of the bear bearers
8:23
of tradition. A lot
8:25
of these women who
8:28
stand out in history were also warriors.
8:31
Most of the tribes are not gillennial, which
8:33
means that plans and traditions have passed down
8:35
from the mother. It's
8:38
something that was very women were
8:40
very equal or sometimes
8:42
a little higher in certain tribes.
8:46
But as colonization
8:49
and the boarding schools and
8:51
residential schools tried to
8:54
westernize the culture, that's one of
8:56
the things that kind of leaked in what is
8:58
being worked on out the
9:01
Colardine is Showny Confederacy
9:04
or the Iroquois Confederacy.
9:07
They are probably one
9:09
of the most matrimonial
9:13
groups that I've heard of as
9:17
a group of nations.
9:19
They just have more female
9:23
led traditions. What
9:25
was what are some of those traditions. One
9:28
of them like I said, is clans
9:30
passed down from the mother. So
9:33
if your mother was born in one
9:35
plan and the fathers and another,
9:38
the mother's fans kind of like last names
9:40
with different They
9:43
also have a lot of medicine
9:46
as a lot of women who are famous
9:48
for being medicine women's So
9:52
those are two of the biggest things. Women as
9:54
leaders and warriors and
9:57
mothers. That's just a very revered
10:00
position in Native culture. So
10:02
yeah, let's go ahead and talk about some of these women. You're
10:04
right, it's not a very vast last list. It should
10:06
be way way way more. There are obviously way way
10:09
way more, But for her time and purposes,
10:11
let's start with some of the big figures
10:14
and names that you want to talk about. Okay,
10:18
we have to Purrina Buffalo
10:20
calf Road, Woman's
10:22
Perna Elizabeth want
10:24
to make her. Of
10:27
course, I can't pronounce the for
10:29
a Trovic. The Polish
10:32
sounding name was all the names I
10:35
could not find the plantation of her
10:37
thinking names, so unfortunately can't
10:40
say that one as Tish
10:43
Callista and Madonna studer
10:45
Hawk. They're all from different
10:49
groups, and actually
10:51
two of them on opposite side,
10:54
which is kind of interesting. But
10:58
Toy Parina is there for person
11:00
on my list, and she is of
11:03
the tongue of the tribe located
11:05
in the Los Angeles basin. And there's
11:08
a little bit of controversy over what the
11:10
tribe is called, because once they're
11:12
not nationally recognized, and two
11:18
the government called
11:20
the tribe something else. It's been very interesting.
11:23
Colonization is a problem for
11:25
records. But
11:28
she was a medicine woman who opposed Spanish
11:31
rule. When she was
11:33
nine the Spanish colonizers invaded. It
11:36
is colonized. There's too strong words. I
11:39
don't know, okay, uh,
11:44
I don't like to call it. There's a
11:46
group of people who are using colonizers
11:49
to talk about current people, and
11:51
I think that's a little too harsh of
11:53
a narrative. We're trying to talk about inclusivity
11:56
and awareness and education. But
11:59
these are actual colonizers. So little
12:02
colonizer good, okay.
12:06
They made it their goal, of course, to convert
12:08
the people and erased their cultural practice
12:11
days. I'm sure
12:13
at the like four pages and everyone's
12:15
history books makes it clear
12:18
why the pornies of Americans
12:20
needed to learn the Western Way, and
12:23
any attempts to this assimilation or
12:26
conversion resulted in our speeding
12:28
torture and they seeven be killed.
12:31
Things reached they're breaking point when traditional
12:34
dances were banned and toy print and
12:36
helped unite six villagers to attack
12:38
the San Gabriel Mission. Even
12:41
though their attacks failed, toy Prina
12:43
was seen as a witch. She was
12:45
just died in the end. She was
12:48
baptized and exiled. I
12:50
can only imagine against her will. But
12:53
she is still a figure of bravery
12:56
and leadership and very
12:58
celebrated. There's a play based
13:00
on her. According to the research
13:03
I found, there is a play about her life.
13:06
Um, and that was not surprising. Yeah,
13:09
premiered at the San Gabriel Mission
13:11
Playhouse in and towards
13:14
California in um
13:18
and also apparently there's a short film about her life
13:21
and a book
13:23
called Zoro has an homage
13:26
to her by Isabelle Allende
13:29
Allende. Yes, yeah,
13:33
so, um she's not
13:35
someone unfortunately I had never heard
13:37
of her both right, I haven't either. But I
13:40
like that there's increasing
13:42
awareness about about
13:44
her and that there's this art being made about
13:47
her. I
13:49
have seen a lot of artworks that are that
13:53
have been made in that I think. Unfortunately,
13:56
unless you're looking for her, mostly
13:59
good people in Los Angeles based
14:01
in or in that area no occur. And that's
14:03
about it, um,
14:06
which is the case sometimes.
14:08
But I don't know all
14:12
of these women. Their stories are like their steet.
14:15
You read about them. On the
14:17
one hand, you feel a bunch of pride from
14:21
reading about their strengths and the things that they were able
14:23
to do. But at the same time, we
14:25
kind of know how this story goes. Yeah,
14:30
and it's much just been a romanticize. The truth
14:32
of the matter is, it's pretty horrifying,
14:35
the narrative in it. All
14:38
right. So the next woman you
14:40
had on your list with Buffalo calf Road Woman,
14:42
which is an intense name, and
14:46
that is their only name, it
14:50
is. There is a her
14:53
name in Northern Cheyenne. I can't I
14:55
couldn't find how to pronounce it. But she is of
14:58
the Northern Cheyenne tribe. And
15:01
if you've heard of the battle a little big
15:03
born m I don't
15:05
know, but um
15:08
me a differing
15:10
in the n spool. So I'm fancy,
15:15
super fancy, super fancy. Uh,
15:19
but yeah, you should have heard about the blow cast
15:21
bread Woman. If you don't know by name,
15:24
you probably have heard of Lieutenant Colonel
15:27
fluster. Yeah
15:29
yeah, I don't really. Yeah, so even
15:32
if you're on the bottle, you know him. And she was the one who
15:34
knocked him off of his course before he died.
15:37
Wow, I shouldn't
15:39
be proud of that, but I kind of am. Come
15:43
on now
15:45
that I should celebrate anyone's death.
15:50
Well, this is not actually her first displaced
15:52
prowess as a warrior. She also
15:55
fought in the Battle of the Rosebud, and
15:58
the Cheyenne called the battle the
16:01
battle with the Woman saved
16:04
her brother, I believe, because
16:07
they were losing and her brother, the
16:09
chief comes in Sight, was injured
16:12
and she's turned her horse around
16:14
gallop both felt the deep of the
16:16
fighting and saved her brother.
16:19
The Lakota and Cheyenne, who are fighting
16:22
together joined forces under crazy
16:24
Horse, were inspired
16:27
by her bravery and turned around and won
16:30
the battle a little big horn. She
16:33
also fought alongside her husband's
16:35
black Coyote, and after
16:37
the battle, she and her family were captured,
16:39
unfortunately and relocated.
16:42
But like she's another woman who's
16:44
fighting spirit is an inspiration for
16:48
some of us Native women and
16:50
people in general. She's
16:53
such a boss. She went through all these
16:55
things, she fought in these battles it.
16:58
She proved her prows warrior and
17:01
her husband Ryle and jail. She
17:04
died from diphtheria or malaria.
17:06
We're not sure which, Like, after everything
17:09
she's been through, that's going to take her down
17:11
really, But I mean this kind of sounds about
17:14
right as you come through that
17:16
type of colonization and and the diseases
17:19
that was brought by
17:21
those types of people. Um, that had actually
17:24
killed a many of tribes and many of indigenous
17:26
people at that point in time. And it is sad,
17:29
but you know, she couldn't be taken down outside
17:31
of a force of nature. I
17:34
guess it's sad. But also if you look at it,
17:36
no, no person put it down exactly.
17:39
She was too strong for people to put on. Its
17:43
too strong for the individual man. I'm
17:45
just saying it couldn't be done by man. So
17:49
other happens deep, Oh
17:52
my god, totally totally
17:55
unrelated. But my brain immediately went
17:57
to Lord of the Rings. Yes,
18:00
okay, we like that reference. Go
18:02
ahead, go ahead with a reference. Because
18:07
one of the leaders of the Black Writers couldn't
18:09
be killed, couldn't be killed by
18:11
a man, and was killed by a woman. Yeah,
18:15
yeah, yeah, that's
18:17
the way, I'm
18:21
no man, okay, so
18:23
good, it was good. Don't
18:26
get us off track myself like that. Loves
18:31
and classics, lorings come on, so
18:33
going on. So it's Elizabeth
18:36
Wanna Maker Paratrovich. I
18:39
literally looked up more of the
18:41
native print stations of their names than I did
18:43
on that one. So
18:48
we'll just say Paratrovich, which
18:50
is not fair. I don't
18:52
know. I
18:55
preferred to call people by their indigence
18:58
for native names. Understanding understandable.
19:01
She is part of the Linkett
19:04
tribe and someone can
19:07
at me and if I do, I'm pronounced them that wrong because it felt
19:09
completely differently. But
19:11
they're in Alaska. She
19:16
was adopted at a young age, and
19:19
one of the reasons why I really wanted to use
19:21
her name her original print name,
19:24
is because she only got the name
19:26
Elizabeth Wanta Maker after she was
19:28
adopted, which
19:30
kind of makes my heart out of that
19:32
whole eraser thing. And
19:36
she gained that wonderful is
19:39
it polish? I have no idea last
19:41
name from her husband, Roy, but they
19:43
were both Native and
19:46
they became the grand President of
19:49
the Alaska Native Brotherhood and Sisterhood,
19:53
and they eventually moved to Juno and
19:56
we're confronted by the no natives allowed
19:58
buying all over the
20:00
uh there's some siens say no dogs
20:02
and no natives, like excuse me,
20:07
so frustrating. But Elizabeth's
20:10
progressed and was determined to bring change. So
20:12
she directed and presented
20:15
the Anti Discrimination Act, and
20:19
it was the first shot down
20:22
and she in that teen three, I believe,
20:24
and she reads to put it
20:26
before or the Senate in
20:29
nineteen and
20:32
just to kind of paint
20:34
a picture of what she was
20:36
like, I kind of has to say a quote from
20:38
someone who's not very nice, so
20:41
to give you a picture of the kind of
20:44
discrimination that needs faced in Alaska,
20:47
senator event, Senator Allen
20:50
has it felt comfortable
20:52
enough to say and a quote.
20:55
Far from being brought close together
20:57
which will results from this act, the racist should
20:59
be kept further apart. He said, who
21:02
are these people, barely out of savagery
21:05
who want to associate with us? White?
21:08
Was five thousand years of recorded
21:10
civilization behind us? Oh
21:12
my god. Her
21:17
response to that was was kind
21:19
of amazing to Sander
21:21
Allen. She said, I would
21:23
not have expected that I, who am barely
21:26
out of savagery, wouldn't have to remind
21:28
gentlemen, was five thousand years of recorded
21:31
civilization behind them of our
21:33
bill of rights. Yeah, yeah,
21:40
she testified last
21:43
in defense of the act, and whatever
21:46
she said, she was able to move
21:48
the entire assembly. Some people said that
21:50
there was cheers everywhere and certain
21:52
ovation and her work
21:54
resulted in Alaska being the very first
21:57
date to pass INTI discrimination legislation,
21:59
but did pass in that's
22:03
amazing, that is amazing. Yeah,
22:07
we have some more women we want
22:09
to talk about listeners, but first we have a quick
22:11
break for a word from our sponsors, and
22:26
we're back. Thank you, sponsor. Let's get into the
22:28
interview to put that into perspective.
22:32
We didn't really have remember were joining
22:34
from themself Arkansas specifically,
22:37
we had segregation filled the seventies,
22:40
right, So yeah, this
22:43
this act was very ahead
22:46
of it time. Right. Oh
22:49
yeah, it looked like and Annie had put in here that it
22:51
would have been nearly twenty years before the federal civil
22:53
rights side would be passed, as well as
22:55
fourteen years before Alaska would become a
22:57
state, which is
22:59
phenomen minal timing that she was able to push
23:01
that hard and get that accomplished. Yeah,
23:05
she obviously had some kind of gift
23:07
of word speech, because
23:10
she was able to move people who
23:13
were so set in their ways of
23:15
thinking of progress or ways of
23:17
looking at Native people that they
23:19
would pass this after
23:21
it had bedn't failed. So I don't
23:24
know what kind of magical
23:26
words she used, but we
23:29
need to imagine right now.
23:33
Yes, for a few reasons. For a few
23:35
reasons. Uh.
23:38
Yeah, And I read that the
23:40
United States meant will have
23:42
a one dollar coin featuring
23:45
her, So, oh I didn't hear
23:47
that. That's exciting. It
23:50
was very exciting. Looks like her son Um
23:52
sculpted a bronze bust in
23:54
honor of her as in the state
23:56
Lobby of Alaska as well. So
23:59
she's a signal nificant portion to the history
24:01
of Alaska, which is beautiful. Yeah,
24:05
did you see the um?
24:07
We can do it? What was that that
24:09
ward time? Any
24:12
derivat? Yeah, she's
24:16
They have one for her too, and I like that one a lot.
24:18
Oh yeah, that's awesome. That is awesome saying
24:24
that right, I could
24:26
not find a pronunciation for her
24:29
name unfortunately, so somebody
24:32
can correctice. I'm sure somebody will
24:41
hit me up on Twitter. I'm sorry, go
24:45
ahead, so U tish
24:48
point for the point I'm going forward, who
24:51
is who are they? Well,
24:54
as we were talking about pollinization, pitch
24:56
prosity. Yeah, this
25:00
a kind of hard story. But as
25:03
Tish was one of the last satte or
25:06
two spirit leaders, and I
25:09
think we're talking to you. I
25:11
mentioned transgender, but to spirit
25:14
isn't directly correlated to transgender.
25:16
It's the closest English term that
25:19
we have for it, but that's not exactly what
25:21
it was. In Almost
25:24
all Native cultures had too spirit
25:27
people. But you
25:29
weren't just a different gender than the one
25:31
you were assigned at birth. I
25:34
say that because that's the term
25:36
most accepted right now, but often
25:39
tinans. Gender wasn't really design
25:42
in Native communities. But
25:44
you are something more if you were to
25:46
spirit mhm.
25:50
It's uh. It was really
25:52
a third gender beyond the gender
25:54
binary. And they were also
25:57
given positions of leadership and we're
25:59
highly who respected members of their communities.
26:03
Tish was the head of the
26:05
Botte, the
26:07
two spirit leaders in her time.
26:11
So we mentioned the Battle of the road
26:13
Side with Buffalo cath road
26:15
Woman. She
26:17
actually fought on the side. Yeah.
26:22
So that battle was between the
26:25
Cheyenne and Lakotas d on one side with
26:29
Crazy Horse and Buffalo cast Road Woman,
26:32
and on the other side was the Crow
26:34
into Shawne people.
26:38
So it was a little a little weird
26:40
to kind of read the different
26:42
perspectives in telling their stories, because on
26:44
the one hand, you have all this bravery
26:47
from Buffalo cath Road Woman and celebrating
26:49
her for being able to turn the battle around,
26:52
and then when you're talking about Ostreet, they
26:54
talked about her prowess
26:56
and bravery even
26:59
though they love So it's
27:03
very interesting and as usual, it's
27:05
about land. And
27:09
there was a graphic I saw the
27:12
other day about how just
27:15
from seventeen seventy six you
27:17
can see the number
27:19
of Native Americans and where they were allowed
27:22
to be just dwindle across the
27:24
state, and it
27:27
forced not only neative
27:29
people to fight against the colonizers,
27:32
but also against each other because
27:34
their lands are being taken away. But
27:38
again, they Artist and
27:41
the Crow in Shy lost
27:45
and eventually the crew were
27:47
confined to a reservation. Unfortunately,
27:50
at the time there were a lot of missionaries and government
27:52
agents that kind of ran the
27:54
reservations. That's not so much the
27:56
case anymore now to
27:59
overeign nation have their own
28:01
government, which
28:04
is another story at
28:08
the time, but people did
28:11
not accept two spirits people. It
28:13
is outside their sensibilities.
28:16
The nicest way I seem stay it. Yeah,
28:21
So just like in
28:23
the boarding schools and the
28:25
residential schools, hair was
28:27
cut off. Two spirit people
28:29
were forced to wear men's clothes and do
28:31
quote unquote men's work. And in
28:33
the face of that, Ashtosh
28:36
wore or neat dresses with pride
28:39
and when afric kind of work
28:41
she did, she always did, she did women's work.
28:43
She was one of the last
28:46
two spirit people across all Native
28:48
cultures two be
28:50
alive. It was effectively
28:53
wiped out for the most part between
28:57
boarding schools and residential schools
28:59
and just people dying
29:01
off and unfortunately a lot of
29:04
two spirit people walked
29:06
on before their trying. I think
29:09
cans remonderous. It's
29:11
it's really hard to talk about these
29:14
kinds of situations because it's easy
29:16
to get really emotional and go
29:19
off, but that's what you know, it's
29:21
not going to bring anyone back to life, and it's it's just
29:24
really tough to read about these
29:26
situations. You
29:29
just have all this anger that has nowhere
29:31
to go on, right, I mean,
29:33
obviously you're somewhere to go here,
29:37
because it's true it is infuriating
29:39
to see that as a culture, what
29:41
that was accepted then was taken away from them
29:44
because of a bigotry
29:46
idea of what is normal, which,
29:49
of course again we're having to come back to and
29:51
have conversations about, and we're nowhere near progressing,
29:53
especially when it comes to um as
29:56
you say, the two gendered as transgender
29:58
as we know it, or that's the best this way
30:00
we can say identify with it.
30:02
I guess that is still such
30:04
a fight to understand, bigger
30:07
than the scope of gender
30:09
and being gendered in general. Yeah,
30:13
And the really hard thing is
30:16
that even though there are a lot of moves to
30:18
revitalize cultural practices,
30:22
a lot of the information is a lot the
30:25
body passed down. The two spirit
30:28
leaders passed out a lot of information amongst
30:31
themselves, And if they're all gone
30:34
and nothing's written, what's
30:37
they're for us to revitalize? Mm
30:39
hmm. So we have
30:41
people who are too spirit
30:43
and those things that are kind of becoming more
30:46
acceptable again, But what's missing
30:49
is the medicine the leadership
30:51
did, tradition that
30:54
came along with it. So like
30:57
other things that Native
30:59
people are trying to revitalize, we
31:01
can only kind of look at things as a guide and
31:04
then do what
31:06
we can with it in our in the scope
31:08
of our modern culture. So
31:12
this is one of those lessons that
31:14
we have to learn and look back and make sure
31:16
that history doesn't repeat itself raising
31:21
a culture or an idea or or people's
31:23
in general, which
31:25
is infuriating and heartbreaking in all the same ways
31:28
in different ways, I guess, says,
31:32
but I did read. So we are reading that the
31:35
Crow tribe did stand behind her um
31:37
when she refused to conform
31:40
to the European roles that they were trying to place
31:42
on them. Oh, they absolutely
31:44
before that and supported
31:46
her because she
31:49
was a leader and they
31:51
had already seen what she could do. She more
31:54
of an earned her position.
31:57
Unfortunately, later in
31:59
her life she faced some kickbacks.
32:03
When we talk about the the
32:05
residential schools and boarding schools, they
32:08
were there's really no nice
32:11
way to say they were horrific. People
32:14
were brainwashed and tortured,
32:16
and one of the things that they
32:19
did effectively was take
32:21
a whole generation of me Is people and
32:25
make them feel inadequate
32:28
or that their practices were
32:30
outdated. And that's still something
32:32
we're struggling with this day, because
32:35
there's a generational
32:37
gap between knowledge.
32:39
So you have that the last generation
32:41
to fight, and then the generations
32:44
that lived and grew up through the
32:46
boarding school systems, and then
32:49
our generation who's trying
32:51
to revitalize the
32:54
tradition. And so a
32:56
lot of people have heard them talk about the try
32:59
to talk to their grandmother's about certain practices,
33:02
and they're very resisdent. We
33:04
don't do that anymore. Not
33:08
all people who went to the residential
33:10
schools and boy schools are like that, right
33:14
under that kind of psychological torture.
33:18
I can't say anything about the
33:20
people who kind of
33:23
changed or assimilated, because that's just a
33:25
survival skill you
33:27
have. If you're going to die or be tortured,
33:29
you have to assimilate, right And that's that
33:32
is exactly what colonization was to bring
33:34
the shame factor. If there's only one culture that
33:36
is correct, and it is whatever
33:38
the strongest or the most most forceful
33:41
culture at that point in time, which
33:43
is absolutely kind of this whole whitewashing
33:46
of history for so many cultures in
33:48
general, and I mean whitewashing, and
33:52
it is it is a horrific thing that it brings
33:54
on a shame factor for those
33:57
who have a different take or
33:59
different understanding and different culture
34:01
on different background, which
34:03
is, yeah, you're right, this is unfortunate,
34:06
and it's it's it's interesting to take that
34:08
here, that perspective from you about how your
34:10
generation is coming in trying to relearn, but
34:12
you are battling with the still
34:15
stain factor from the past generations
34:17
that they were taught or they were tortured, or they're forced
34:19
on to them, which is, yeah,
34:21
I've never actually thought about that in the bigger
34:23
picture. It's it's very
34:26
it's something that you don't seem normally, especially
34:29
if you're not connected to a native community.
34:32
So some of my friends are
34:35
in Nupia in Alaska and
34:37
they have the traditional tin tattoos,
34:40
and there are some women in the
34:42
community who are older who see
34:45
it as a bad thing because
34:47
that's something they left behind. They evolved
34:50
past that now, but
34:52
more and more women are getting those
34:54
traditional tattoos, and I
34:57
think it's absolutely beautiful that
35:00
they're able to because it really came
35:03
from I think one book or one
35:05
reported book about tattooing
35:09
and how they did it and what the different clans
35:11
and people have different patterns,
35:14
and I
35:16
guess that they're just kind of building it up from
35:18
there, right,
35:22
And what you're doing with bringing it forward
35:24
and talking about the history is also very very
35:26
important, so we can see and recognize
35:29
the tragedy that happens when you oppress
35:32
a culture in the society and the history
35:34
that is lost on that as
35:37
well. It's a good job, Natalie,
35:40
I think. I mean, honestly, I
35:43
am absolutely not an expert
35:46
in any of these cultures, in any
35:49
of these specific types. They're
35:52
not mine any one on this list,
35:54
first of all, and second of all, I am
35:58
Nick, even if I am significantly
36:02
indigenous, but I
36:05
had to I'm having to reconnect later
36:07
in life anyway. And it's
36:10
only because I have two
36:12
people who grew up within their cultures and
36:15
made actual steps to educate myself
36:17
that I can even speaking right,
36:21
right, But I think what's and
36:24
yes, there are definitely a lot of experts out there, but
36:27
coming out and having conversations and
36:30
and making sure people still know or
36:32
at least understand the bigger history is
36:35
phenomenal in itself. And also, yes, you
36:37
definitely have a drive
36:39
which is beautiful to make sure,
36:41
honestly, if anyone this knowledge,
36:44
this information is available to everyone,
36:46
right, which should be
36:49
we should have more stuff on this moving on
36:51
to the next person. And I'm not sure I'm gonna be able
36:53
to say this name talk to me to
36:56
thank you. I'm pretty sure again,
37:00
um idea. But she is are you? Are
37:03
you? But she was an advocate
37:05
for the people and also an author. She
37:08
was one of the first well I think she was
37:10
the first published Native American
37:12
woman, and she published a
37:14
book called Life among the Pies,
37:17
Their Wrongs and Claims in x
37:20
eighteen eighty three. She
37:24
witnessed a lot of atrocities and violence
37:27
against the people and always
37:29
spoke out against her treatment. And
37:31
when I think she spoke out, she gut over
37:34
three hundred deejas on
37:38
the true the maltreatment of Native people.
37:43
She lived through the Banic
37:45
War of eighteen seventy
37:47
eight and rescued a group of
37:50
payed people, including
37:52
her father, and
37:54
continue to speak out even after she and
37:56
a group of play were forcibly located to
37:58
the Yakima res vation until
38:01
her death took me tona
38:04
spot for land vites and human rights of Native
38:06
people. It might not
38:08
be a surprise too were
38:11
people, as she came from a line of leaders,
38:13
as a daughter of the chiefs
38:15
and the granddaughter of Chi's truck
38:17
e. Unfortunately, there's
38:19
not too too much information I could find
38:22
on her beyond that, but
38:24
we still have her writings.
38:27
Her book is still available, so that's
38:30
us. And for sure I know
38:33
that the right people talk
38:36
about her a lot in there in
38:38
Nevada. Three
38:41
hundred speeches. It's
38:43
impressive. It's impressive speaking
38:45
out in too. You're like, what, as
38:49
an indigenous female, what that
38:52
takes a lot of parts? Excuse
38:58
so let me to speak out in our
39:00
community. It is not an abnormal
39:03
thing, but
39:05
when you're facing culture
39:07
that is kind of the opposite,
39:11
especially in the eighteen hundreds, I'm
39:14
sure it was very odd to look
39:17
at halving all this freedom and
39:20
respect is a Native woman and then seeing
39:22
the culture that you were trying to be forced into.
39:26
Yeah, m I can only
39:28
imagine. I want to read
39:30
her book. Really need to find
39:32
that book next moment, yeah,
39:38
or less that. We haven't started. I have a
39:40
list, you have, I know you have, I know you
39:42
have. And
39:45
then we wanted to talk about Madonna thunder
39:47
Hawk. There's one before
39:49
that? Sorry? Which one is? Okay?
39:52
I'm really excited? Is it to
39:54
lost that? Or Red
39:56
Food was a
39:59
young Napton, Youngstown,
40:01
Dakotas to and she's
40:03
another writer, but she's also
40:06
a musician and activists. Her
40:08
books were written among the
40:10
first to spread traditional Native stories
40:12
and she wrote. She
40:15
even wrote part of the first Native
40:17
American opera called the Sun Dance
40:19
Opera in nineteen thirteen. While
40:22
her writings of her experiences with boarding
40:24
School of life and stories are probably
40:26
enough to make her historical figure. National
40:31
and made the National Council
40:33
for American Indians in nineteen twenty
40:36
six, and this enabled her to
40:38
lobby for Native rights
40:40
to the United States
40:42
citizenship and civil rights.
40:45
She served as president until her death
40:48
in nineteen thirty eight. So
40:51
we have another strong woman in
40:54
leadership, not just
40:57
in the tribe but outside of it is law,
41:00
So there's another another
41:04
I don't know the operas are put into a
41:06
book, but I'm sure she wrote other books
41:08
that you can add your boys.
41:12
I think she she was pretty prolific. Um
41:16
that she wrote and
41:18
uh from recording for what I
41:20
found the Atlantic Monthly and Harper's Monthly. Um,
41:25
so yeah, that's I think some of
41:27
her works are out there. People should definitely go check
41:30
them out. Yeah.
41:32
The College Hall is also just
41:35
a beautiful horror, and she is
41:38
another image of Indigenous
41:42
Native strength and perseverance. I
41:46
don't know, I want a seriously like you
41:48
know, as a kid, you have all those put stories of bands
41:50
and stuff on your walls. I
41:53
kind of want to saw all these women on my be
41:56
awesome. Can't put it on your phone now as
41:58
a motivation. Now there you go, not
42:01
on not on the walls anymore is on your phone because
42:03
you open it up. My room is still covered
42:05
in posters. I don't know what you're saying. Your house is covered
42:08
in posters. Never
42:10
mind, I haven't. I
42:12
haven't graduated from that. I
42:16
do too. I do toot
42:21
on the ceiling too. So you wake up in the is
42:24
all these amazing women. Yeah, that'd
42:26
be better than what I have. But I still
42:29
do in your ceiling.
42:33
That guy, I mean, eventually you just ran into space
42:35
and you have to put stuff on the feelings.
42:37
Never I've never been there. But okay, that's
42:41
my entire life. But
42:43
I like this idea much better. This
42:45
is more than like Harry Potter and Star Wars,
42:49
perhaps more motivate, normal,
42:55
realistic. Yeah
42:58
you are, I'm just actually is probably
43:00
better than what she's got, So keep geping her the ideas.
43:04
It would be more work appropriate. At least I could be
43:06
like, well these are they? To
43:08
better myself by looking at these motivational
43:12
warriors? Yeah, oh
43:14
my goodness. All right, next we can
43:16
get over more ideas. Now
43:19
we're down to Yes, Madonna
43:21
Thunderhawky, all right, tell us
43:23
about her. She's the last
43:25
first normalist, and of every mormalist,
43:27
she's actually still alive. Don't
43:31
know. I said that ignored
43:38
that part already would
43:40
be alive as congratulations, not that being dead as
43:42
that, you know whatever. She
43:47
lived through a lot of crazy
43:50
things. So she
43:52
is Cheyenne River Sue. And
43:56
I think she's still in South
43:58
Dakota, so she's
44:01
not only alive, still alive. That organized
44:03
the protest against the Daquota pipeline
44:05
in two thousand and sixteen, and she was
44:07
like, wow,
44:11
did she organized that? She's
44:16
seventy eight and she
44:18
doesn't look it by the pictures I've seen, and
44:20
I have no doubt she has one thousand percent
44:23
a woman to be reckoned with. When
44:27
I read through everything she's seen and
44:29
taken part in, I
44:31
just cannot imagine
44:34
what it's like to have
44:36
lived through all these things and still
44:39
have all the fire that
44:41
she stilled. What she
44:45
was part of the Red Power
44:48
movement, which I didn't even know where the thing
44:50
that makes sense. It was the sixties
44:53
and seventies, So guys, black power,
44:55
I just read power goes
44:58
right along with it. Uh.
45:01
Her first foray, as far as
45:03
I could, Yeah, as far as I found
45:06
was protesting during the nineteen sixty nine
45:08
to nineteen seventy one occupation of Outstra
45:12
I had ever heard of this, but
45:15
apparently there was a treaty
45:17
between the government and those Dakota people
45:20
that called the Treaty
45:22
of Fort Larmie that said all
45:24
retired, abandoned, or out of US federal
45:26
land was to be returned to the Lakotas
45:29
who wants to occupied it, And
45:31
so they moved there from nineteen nine
45:34
seventy one. And I was
45:36
not surprised that the
45:38
protest wasn't successful. The
45:41
United States is not really known
45:43
for giving the land
45:46
that It blows
45:48
my mind that she also went
45:51
through this as well. Wounded me. Is
45:54
I don't know if ill we call it soul crushing.
45:56
It's one of those moments
45:59
that earth a
46:01
lot and if he's bread there
46:03
in my heart, it wounded me. You might
46:05
know why so bad,
46:07
but I highly recommend everyone read it.
46:09
I think it should be required reading in high
46:11
school personally, but um,
46:14
I don't know if our
46:17
government in this current climate is ready for
46:19
me to put that in school. So uh.
46:24
But even after that, like
46:27
I said, this woman has
46:30
so much stamina and so much perseverance.
46:33
I don't even I just can't.
46:36
She served as a director of
46:38
the Wounded Me Legal Defense Offense
46:41
Commity in December of Right
46:44
Team seventy five. She also founded
46:46
the Warrior Woman Project. And there's
46:49
kind of so many more organizations
46:51
and movements to
46:54
fight for New American people and
46:56
right and she's still doing this work. That's
47:00
awesome. I mean, another
47:02
another person to look to,
47:05
to to respected, to
47:07
be inspired by. So
47:10
I would cry
47:12
at that demean her. The
47:16
ultimate goal to meet her. Yeah, obviously
47:18
she's still because the pipeline issue
47:20
hasn't been resolved other than no one's
47:23
acknowledging it. To my
47:25
knowledge, I think that the Code of Pipeline
47:27
is active, but we
47:31
an't know that. There have been
47:33
like oil spills and all
47:35
sorts of problems. The
47:38
pipeline is going through Native land are
47:40
legal, may violate several
47:42
treaties, but to fight
47:45
and other things. Native voices have not
47:47
had the impact this they should have had,
47:50
not right their own fault, but
47:53
by our government
47:55
and the news
47:57
media and how things are covered. A
48:00
lot of mothering and not
48:02
a lot of compassions towards
48:04
new people right as um um
48:07
was looking like, I if some of the
48:09
Democrats who are running for president have
48:12
used it as a platform, not not their
48:14
platform, as a promise to shut it down or
48:16
to reverse some of it. So it's still a
48:18
big issue, but not big enough that they're talking about
48:20
it on debates right now, which
48:22
is sad and obviously really really um.
48:28
I don't know what else other than yeah, it's just about
48:30
right. It's not as important to some people um
48:33
as it should be, as it should be about the lines
48:35
that are affecting. But it's absolutely something that's
48:37
still having to be fought for. And obviously
48:40
we know, as you just said, she's
48:42
been fighting for um and Kindometre
48:44
has continued to be a big
48:46
voice in pushing that as a
48:48
as a
48:51
conversation that we need to have more
48:53
of. Yeah, and
48:56
she has seen some real
48:59
real bloodshow. Part
49:01
of my the November project is talking
49:03
about violent language that's still
49:05
used in the media that inspires violence
49:09
in real life, and
49:13
for her to see some of
49:15
the most horrific moments in American
49:19
history or modern whatever
49:22
this period of American history
49:24
is and still be fighting really
49:27
is indicative
49:29
of so much strength. I
49:32
don't know. That's something really common when
49:34
you hear these stories, especially need
49:37
of women. They
49:40
see these awful things, they see this genocide,
49:42
and then in the face of genocide, women
49:45
are standing up and speaking
49:47
out. And that's
49:49
why it's so important to one
49:52
read about your American history,
49:55
take part in as much as you can, to
49:59
talk as some of those things, and actually listen
50:01
when Americans talk about issues
50:04
they are facing ones. It's
50:09
just a lot, right. We
50:12
do have a little bit more for you listeners, but first
50:14
we have one more quick break for word from our
50:16
sponsor and
50:30
we're back. Thank you sponsor. So you
50:32
had mentioned earlier that there's obviously
50:35
and we can all definitely research, but what
50:37
would you point out someone that wants to learn
50:39
more of the histories and the behind the scenes.
50:42
Where would you point them? Is there something like reference
50:44
books or that two old days
50:46
reference books
50:51
resources? Thank you books. I'm
50:54
not old, I'm not come out against books.
50:56
I used to encyclopedia from most
50:58
of middle school. Okay, so I mean and I when not
51:00
saying encyclopaedia, I mean hard bound
51:03
Britanica, Cyclopaedias, serie decimals,
51:07
So don't date me, but resources that you would
51:09
point them to. Oh
51:15
so I would
51:18
recommend if you really want to
51:20
know what Native
51:22
history is like and why
51:24
all of us are so passionate
51:27
about it, I think
51:30
diving in head first is
51:34
the best way to do it, because we
51:37
are living with reality and if
51:39
it's shocking to you, imagine
51:42
what it's like for us to see all
51:44
the your reature that are people have faced and
51:47
see it continuing now. So a
51:49
good place to start to really get
51:52
a handle on how much
51:56
effort has been put into eliminating
51:58
Native people bury in my heart
52:01
it wounded me is the
52:04
books that's probably the bless the best place
52:06
to start. There
52:08
are there's a narrative that I've heard of
52:13
Native American spot against each other.
52:15
So it's not a big deal that the
52:18
United States also the colonial
52:20
people also bought them. But it
52:23
is completely different. We're talking about
52:26
the make genocide
52:28
as opposed to what
52:32
kind of amounts
52:34
to land stuffle and
52:40
I will warn you that there are some things in
52:42
the Wounded they remember the one Danda, are
52:45
graphic, but it's
52:48
absolutely necessary to hear those things.
52:52
And usually, again, history like
52:54
this, atrocities like this, and
52:56
again, as you said, genocide, it's going to be graphics.
52:59
So to expect less would
53:01
be you look at a really unrealistic version
53:03
of history. Right.
53:05
It would be like learning about the Holocaust
53:08
without learning about anything
53:11
that has to Dick concentration camp, right, which
53:14
is absurd in itself. Well, thank
53:16
you so much, Natalie. I'm so glad
53:19
that we got to connect and
53:21
that you are able to speak with us.
53:23
Is there anything else that you want to add or you
53:25
want to voice about what we're talking
53:28
about? I
53:30
okay, one thing I I
53:34
kind of challenge my listeners
53:36
to do. List If you are not connected
53:39
to a Native community or any
53:41
funds who are needed, I encourage
53:43
you too. On Instagram, watch Twitter, follow
53:47
five Indigenous people and
53:51
just as you're looking to your
53:54
feet and as you're learning
53:56
and hearing from these people, I guarantee
53:58
you it won't take very long for
54:00
you to realize that there
54:02
are some things going on you might not be aware of.
54:05
And I think that's kind of adslies
54:07
to all ethnic groups. It's a good
54:09
idea to know what's happening and be aware
54:11
and get out of our little bubbles. But
54:15
it's very important thing to make
54:17
sure you are paying attention
54:19
to native voices, especially
54:23
being on the land of people who are still here.
54:26
Now, that's amazing. I love that. That's a
54:29
great challenge and I think absolutely I would
54:31
voice that and agree with you that is
54:33
to start to
54:35
start with and do that. Um.
54:38
And now where can we find you on the interwebs.
54:42
You can find me on all social
54:44
media platforms at some kind of Brown.
54:47
My podcast Some kind of Brown is
54:50
on actually all of the podcast as
54:53
I have any teenager website
54:56
employ a teenager because it still has a dot
54:58
WordPress, dot com. Some
55:03
kind of request that song,
55:05
and it has all the episodes that
55:07
I have I've had so far, and
55:09
you can find out more about November
55:12
or any of the guests or episodes that I've
55:14
had on there too. Amazing.
55:16
Thank you again, UM,
55:19
you are awesome and I'm
55:21
sure we're going to keep in connection. Yes,
55:23
we wanted you to know we support everything you're
55:25
doing and we want to make sure that,
55:28
UM, you know that we overhear
55:30
at Sementy love what you're doing and
55:32
are great grateful that you're doing it. Yes,
55:35
thank you so much. How do you want to say my
55:38
girlfriend is a big fan of
55:40
your podcast? Yeah, hello,
55:44
hello, Yeah,
55:48
I see a chance to
55:50
move on and something
55:53
that I think I really appreciate.
55:55
It's what your podcast is. It's just about
55:58
being a woman with our necessarily
56:02
putting a limit on what that means.
56:05
And I think that's really company
56:08
for people who are
56:10
transgender women to just
56:13
have this place where they can talk about
56:15
femininity and being a woman in
56:18
at the same time being included in the narrative.
56:22
That brings us to the end of
56:24
this another delightful interview with
56:27
um all of your listeners. I'm always
56:29
so impressed and inspired in
56:31
awe the things that you all are doing.
56:33
So keep keep letting
56:36
us know what you're up to. We love hearing about
56:38
it. UM. And as Natalie said, probably
56:41
everybody on this list we could
56:43
have talked about a whole episode,
56:45
right. It's not, as she had said before, Even though
56:48
I was like, oh, yeah, it's a big list, it really
56:50
isn't. And it's probably an endless list of
56:53
people that we could talk about who identified
56:55
as female. Or non binary that
56:57
needs to be recognized, that we need to be talking
56:59
about, and that their history does need to be
57:01
preserved and the things that they have done
57:04
for their community as well as for
57:06
their culture. And I think I'm
57:09
very sad that we couldn't get we
57:12
don't have all the information that we absolutely
57:14
should and uh that that this
57:17
is the first time I've heard of probably about
57:19
four of those women, some I've ever talked
57:21
about that and that makes me really sad.
57:24
Yeah. Um, And
57:27
Natalie's says she had an entire spreadsheet of
57:29
women and she had to choose. Like I appreciate
57:32
the difficulty of that, Natalie as you as you're if
57:34
you're listening to this now, I've
57:36
been in that situation, not similar, but been like,
57:38
pick of all of these amazing women, picked
57:40
the three bests, and you're like, A, here's
57:43
this movies and
57:45
other things? Right now? Is all I can think
57:47
of? His movies because we've been talking about movies.
57:49
Yes, yes, but I
57:51
also have more important items in my
57:54
brains. Um, but
57:56
yeah, yeah, I would love to hear about every single
57:58
woman on that spreadsheet. See you, we
58:00
should have just gotten that's all we can publish it? Oh
58:03
you can ask Satalie, maybe she doesn't want to share your secrets.
58:05
I don't know. I'm putting that on my show. If
58:07
not, you should definitely go listen to her show. You should
58:09
absolutely do that because, um,
58:12
as you said, we all need to know
58:15
these stories and they're so valuable, um
58:18
and inspiring they are. Yes.
58:21
Um So, if
58:23
you would like to email us with
58:25
whatever europe to or people we
58:27
should be talking about, whatever is on
58:29
your mind, you can do that. Our
58:31
email is Stuff Media mom Stuff
58:34
at i heeart media dot com. You
58:36
can also find us on Twitter at
58:38
mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram
58:40
at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks to
58:42
Natalie for being our wonderful interviewee.
58:46
Thank you to Andrew are super producer.
58:48
Another thank you, and thank you
58:51
for listening Stuff I'm
58:53
Never Told You his protection of I Heart Radios how Stuff
58:55
works. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
58:57
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast
59:00
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H
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