0:04

Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and

0:07

welcome to Stephan Never told you production. I heart

0:09

radio. Alright,

0:19

Anny, I have a question for you,

0:21

And even though I already know the answer, I feel like, because I

0:23

know you so well, I already know the answers. But

0:26

did you ever have any interest in

0:28

any of the true crime stories growing up

0:31

or even now? No? And in

0:33

fact, I have never seen a single

0:36

episode of Law and Order of any

0:38

of I know multitudes of Law

0:41

and Order shows. I did

0:43

watch because of my brother and

0:45

we only had the one TV, so you know, you had to

0:47

deal with whoever choke him. I

0:49

did a watch Rescue nine one one,

0:51

but that didn't necessarily have I just

0:54

mostly remember that kid got stuck into escalator,

0:56

and then I was afraid of escalators after

0:58

that. Oh yeah, it was at the croc one. Well

1:00

he had like it was his jacket.

1:04

Something got stuck in the escalator. I think I

1:07

know there's a croc one too where

1:09

they got sucked in and it killed

1:12

the kid. Oh my gosh, Oh my

1:14

gosh. Well that's stuck with me. The

1:16

kid in this he survived. I

1:18

will say, in light of what we're talking

1:20

about today, I would go through these

1:22

like really morbid periods where I would research

1:25

serial killers or like what like

1:28

just looking to their biographies and then

1:30

I just regret that I ever had but I

1:32

would do that. So I'm pretty familiar with most

1:34

of the big serial killers, at least

1:36

in the United States. Yeah, so

1:39

obviously we're going to be talking a little bit

1:41

about this subject. And before we start on

1:44

what is a very fascinating but really

1:46

to start pink topic, want to put a quick

1:48

trigger warning. We will be mentioning rape,

1:50

assault, and stalking within this episode. We're

1:52

not going to get two in depth of

1:55

any of the graphics situations or

1:57

any of the actual cases more so

2:00

around it. But yeah, we're definitely talking about

2:02

murders and violent criminals in

2:04

this episode and actually the

2:07

people who love them. Right. So,

2:11

yeah, if you're listening to this when it comes out and you

2:13

have to celebrate Valentine and say we are not

2:15

there for you, I guess are you know? We're

2:18

giving you an alternative? Is

2:22

your anti Valentine's here you go?

2:24

Yeah, So we're talking

2:26

today about women who love serial

2:29

killers and I guess killers at large,

2:31

and we're not necessarily talking about people who

2:33

were with killers. And then found out later we're

2:36

talking about people who know what they

2:38

did about the atrocities and fall in love

2:41

despite that. Because of that with

2:43

these different people, and this

2:45

episode came to mind because I

2:47

will admit I'm very interested in

2:49

true crime, and as we know,

2:52

Netflix actually has been producing a lot

2:54

of true crime content and have been

2:56

for several years now, including some of the newer

2:58

ones like The Nice which follows

3:00

the case of serial killer Richard Ramirez.

3:03

And just to put it out there if you're interested in any

3:05

of these types of shows, this one is pretty

3:07

graphic and has been accused

3:09

of glorifying the violence and bringing on victims

3:11

for shock value, So definitely just

3:14

watch out that. One thing that did catch

3:16

a lot of people's attention and I believe became

3:18

a pretty popular meme was

3:20

the reaction of one of the witnesses they spoke

3:22

to when they were asking her about the women who

3:24

are trying to connect with Ramirez and trying

3:26

to get his attention or even date him, and her

3:29

response was quote, I'm sorry, but they're the dumbest

3:31

bitches ever. And those have been talked

3:33

about. I started to wonder, why do

3:35

some women and others go as far as even

3:38

marrying some of these horrible men. Right,

3:41

and as we should have expected,

3:43

there are terms for people who are attracted to

3:45

serial killers are people who commit horrific crimes.

3:48

So let's start with the terms

3:50

and definitions. First.

3:53

There's high bristophelia, which means

3:55

a paraphilia quote in which a person is sex

3:58

sual oh erotically attracted to a soon

4:00

who is committed an outrage or a gruesome

4:02

crime. Are, to put it plainly, when

4:04

someone is sexually attracted to terrifying criminals

4:06

and specifically for our episode killers.

4:09

And within this paraphilia there is a further breakdown

4:12

of two types, passive and aggressive.

4:14

Right. So the passive hyper stophilia

4:17

are exactly what they sound like, passive

4:19

and not necessarily about committing any crimes

4:21

or being involved in crimes, but are

4:23

part of the s kgs or serial killer

4:25

groupies, and they're likely to try to make

4:28

excuses or justify the crimes that were

4:30

committed. And they're the ones who feel like

4:32

they can change these bad people or bad

4:34

boys and most likely places

4:36

themselves to be manipulated and seduced by

4:38

the killers. And they are the admirers that

4:40

are sending fan mail and try to become pen

4:42

pals with criminals. And it should also

4:45

be noted here the majority of people who are

4:47

I guess categorized with hyperstophilia

4:50

are women and it is usually

4:52

only known openly known in

4:54

regards to women, especially those thirty to forty

4:56

years old. So what we're talking about specifically

4:58

is again gear towards women, and

5:01

that's why we're going to be mainly talking about

5:03

women throughout this episode. Right. So,

5:05

then there's aggressive hypri stophilia,

5:08

which is the opposite of passive um. They're

5:10

willing to assist their loves, whether

5:12

it's to trick someone, cover up for them, or

5:14

even commit the crimes themselves. It's

5:16

the violence that attracts them,

5:19

and they are trying to earn their

5:21

love at the same time. Right.

5:23

And this is also known as the Bonnie and

5:25

Clyde syndrome. Essentially, this is the same

5:27

thing as hybristophilia, just not as scientific

5:30

sounding. It's named after the famous criminal

5:32

duo Bonnie Elizabeth Parker and

5:35

Clyde Chestnut Barrow. And just in case

5:37

you didn't know what happened to this

5:39

couple, this is the famous duo that went across

5:41

country on a crime street killing law enforcement

5:44

and robbing mini Amania banks.

5:46

They had their own game, I believe the Barrow bank

5:48

robbers is what they were called. And Bonnie,

5:51

by the way, supposedly never

5:53

pulled the trigger, so she never technically killed

5:55

anyone, but very attracted to

5:57

Clyde because of his bad boy image.

6:00

She had been married, actually she was married

6:02

to someone else at the time she and Clyde were together.

6:05

He was in jail her husband at the time

6:07

she was killed with Clyde.

6:09

So that's kind of why it is known as the Body and Clyde

6:11

syndrome. And Um apparently

6:14

was a really good student and a great poet, and you

6:16

can find her poems out there. Really interesting.

6:18

Again, they were killed in an ambush by

6:21

a posse of law enforcement, and

6:23

with the help of the nineteen sixties seven film

6:25

starring Warren Beatty and fay Dnaway, the couple's

6:27

fame kind of was revived. Even though

6:29

they were already famous, it kind of had

6:31

this whole romanticized portrayal of them,

6:34

so they became a little more famous and a little

6:36

more popular at that point in time. And

6:38

then yes, serial killer groupies

6:41

again, this is a slang or kitchen nickname for

6:43

hyper stophilia, but for

6:45

this context we see it used as if

6:47

the serial killers have the same appeal as rock

6:50

stars, deeming the admirers. Yes,

6:52

are often female as groupies hoping

6:55

to just meet them or to have a chance to really

6:57

know them and hopefully that

6:59

they will want to get to know them and connect

7:01

on a deeper level, also known as

7:03

prison groupies. Right, So

7:06

this is also a less reform in the

7:08

same level of the passive version of hyber

7:10

stophilia. They're not going to do anything excessive,

7:12

but they are really excited to

7:15

get to know, get to meet and probably dedicate

7:17

a part of their lives to these different

7:19

high profile criminals. Just but

7:21

there. So moving on, let's

7:23

talk about the types of killers. We're not going into

7:26

a lot of detail of specific cases, but

7:28

always we like to make sure you know what

7:30

we know, and just a quick review over

7:32

some of the types of killers because they all have the

7:34

fans that we may be mentioning.

7:36

And the first one, of course, is the serial killer. I

7:38

guess we should probably I mean,

7:41

we're going to go back to basics on this one and define

7:43

that the serial killers, according to dictionary dot

7:45

com, is quote a person who commits

7:48

a series of murders, often with no apparent

7:50

motive and typically following a characteristic

7:53

or predictable behavior pattern, or, as

7:55

the American Psychological Association defines

7:57

it as, quote, an individual to repeatedly

8:00

commits murder, typically with a distinct pattern

8:02

in the selection of victims, location, and method.

8:05

Yeah, and I believe, like the FBI definition

8:07

has been revised several times, right,

8:10

I know, started with multi murderer and

8:12

it kind of just went down a whole different chime. Yeah,

8:14

there was like a time period and

8:16

stuff like that. So, yeah, there's a

8:19

little up for grabs there. But in general,

8:21

then there's family annihilator.

8:23

This term is often used interchangeably

8:26

with familio side, which means quote, the

8:28

killing of multiple family members, typically the

8:30

partner and at least one child. And

8:32

according to a UK research paper, they identified

8:34

four types of people who fall under this category

8:37

self righteous, disappointed, economic

8:39

or unstable, and paranoid. Right,

8:42

and then we're also going to talk about proxy

8:44

murderer. Here we're talking about a specific

8:46

case, which is the case of Charles Manson. Since he

8:48

never technically killed anyone, he

8:51

could not really be classified as a serial

8:53

killer or um just a mass murderer.

8:55

No, obviously, there's no doubt he's a reason for

8:57

the murders that were committed by his follower. Is

9:00

still incorrect to put them in that category.

9:02

So proxy murder is defined as quote, a

9:04

murder in which the murderer does so at the

9:07

behest of another acting as a proxy.

9:09

Yes, And speaking of mass murders,

9:11

mass murders or people who quote kill four

9:14

more people in a single incident, not including

9:16

themselves, typically in a single location.

9:19

School shootings are an example

9:21

of mass murders. All

9:23

right, So, now that we've laid

9:25

out the ground or, let's

9:28

talk about what's going on with women who

9:30

are attracted to these killers. But first we're

9:33

gonna pause for a quickly for words from responsor

9:48

and we're back, Thank you, sponsored Okay,

9:50

So let's get into what is appealing about

9:52

these killers for some women. One reason maybe

9:54

the romanticized misrepresentation of

9:56

these killers. As we talked about at the beginning of this

9:58

episode, there have been many documentaries

10:01

and movies that have been released based on a lot

10:03

of these killers. There are shows dedicated

10:05

to murder cases and specific killers all around

10:07

the world. And I'm not gonna lie. I

10:09

am definitely watched my fair share of Criminal

10:12

Minds. I don't know, it's not just me, because

10:14

it's quite popular as in fact, that show has been

10:16

around since two thousand five and

10:18

ended only last year, and

10:20

it's still considered one of the most popular contemporary

10:23

shows out there. And the show doesn't necessarily

10:25

try to romanticize or glamorize the different

10:27

killers or killings. The success of the shows

10:29

like Criminal Minds does speak to the overall fascination

10:32

that people have about killers and the crimes

10:34

they commit. But what makes the fans

10:37

or hybristophiles different is their desire

10:39

and attraction to them. And when we look at shows

10:41

like You or movies like the

10:43

Ted Bundy movie starring Stack Afron, it becomes

10:46

more romanticized for some of the viewers and

10:48

starts to become more of a fantasy and attraction

10:50

to the story themselves. As Karen

10:52

Kilgareff and Georgia Hartstack has stated in

10:54

their podcast My Favorite Murder, it's not the

10:57

murderer, but the obsession of the stories

10:59

that catch their attention. And by the way,

11:01

I have a lot of friends that love that show,

11:04

and it's really funny to me because they will be telling

11:06

me all these things, and it almost

11:08

always is. I heard on my favorite

11:10

murder and like it's

11:14

popular. And we just recently talked about

11:16

the appeal of romance novels, and some

11:18

experts believe it's some more extreme

11:20

forms of romantic novels, like the body

11:22

stripping genres that may influence some of these fantasies

11:25

of these killers. Of course we are

11:28

talking the more or most

11:30

extreme versions, but it does connect with the appeal

11:32

of the bad boy at dominant Mail, who is

11:34

misogynistic, groups that change

11:36

for the one that they love the old he's

11:39

really tender and loving with loving me

11:41

trope. And here it could be misconstrued that these

11:43

killers are the most extreme, over

11:45

publicized, real versions of

11:48

these fantasy characters,

11:50

and that we aren't going to delve into it. There

11:52

is fan fiction like under the

11:55

true crime community, which in

11:57

my experience, which is very very limited, very

12:01

I won't say it's necessarily romanticizing

12:03

it, but the mere fact that it exists,

12:05

and also I'm sure they're underground

12:09

places that probably have

12:12

a lot more um stories like

12:14

this is telling, and then

12:16

their erotic blogs. In regards

12:18

to the fantasized ideas of who

12:20

these killers are and those

12:22

won't be going away anytime

12:24

soon, and then going

12:27

on to a different reason. Maybe is the

12:29

good old savior complex. And we've

12:31

talked about this a lot with toxic relationships

12:34

or even abusive relationships, but this is

12:36

to another level. Um, we're talking about

12:38

women finding the ultimate projects

12:40

a chance for some women to be the ones

12:42

to reveal the killers quote true self

12:44

as in the man behind the monster kind

12:47

of idea. And the idea behind this

12:49

is that the individual could be the one to rescue

12:52

or save these killers, as in fact,

12:54

their need to save our health them can be a spill

12:56

over from their own lives, perhaps their social

12:58

workers or nurses, and some kind of feel

13:00

the profession that also allows them to have this

13:03

purpose in their work lives and daily lives. But

13:05

of course this is not to say that women who are attracted

13:07

to do these thingerous killers are all nurses

13:09

or social workers. I'm not one of those. I'm

13:11

just saying that they definitely had some correlations

13:14

as in fact, like some of the people who

13:16

were attached to them, one was a defense attorney

13:19

who came in as wanting

13:21

to protect and find their innocence and protect

13:23

their life. Some of them may have been like editors

13:25

trying to do a good change in like their

13:28

personal stories get that sympathy. So

13:30

it definitely has that kind of level of I'm

13:32

gonna help you, I'm gonna save you. Yeah,

13:34

And I mean it's worth mentioning to you that not all,

13:36

not all serial killers, but a lot of killers

13:38

are are charismatic and charming, very

13:41

manipulous. Yes, yes, and at the savior

13:43

complex could go hand in hand with some

13:45

of these women, um wanting to nurture

13:47

our protective killers. Yes. So for example, the combined

13:50

shooters definitely have a fan group, and

13:52

the majority of them believed the story that they

13:54

were the actual victims of bullying and being

13:56

misunderstood. There are many dedicated

13:59

sites to defending them and their actions.

14:02

The Parkland shooter was also placed on the same pedestal

14:04

and was sent fan mail and even gifts.

14:07

His public defender even stated in my

14:09

forty years as a public defender, I've never

14:11

seen this many letters to a defendant end

14:14

quote. The letters shake me up because they are

14:16

written by a regular, everyday teenage girls

14:18

from across the nation. That scares me.

14:21

It's perverted. Many of the letters

14:23

contain notes of caring and concern.

14:26

Many of the young girls wanted to let them know that if

14:28

they need anything or just wanted to talk,

14:30

that they were available. And for many

14:33

they form an attachment and hopes to be that

14:35

listening year, that woman who can nurture

14:37

and helps them grow or become better people.

14:39

Yeah, it was pretty disturbing some of the samples

14:42

of the letters that were sent. There are also those

14:44

who seek to comfort the killers who

14:47

have been known to have trauma in their childhood

14:49

which they have made excuses as to this

14:51

is why they commit these crimes. We all

14:53

know that many of the killers had histories

14:56

of abuse, are neglect and that this is the appeal

14:58

For some of the women. They want to nurture

15:00

and protect the boy inside or the protect

15:03

the boy that was. It helps that they can turn

15:05

the killers around to bring them past

15:07

the trauma. Dr Katherine Ramsland,

15:09

who has written many books concerning

15:12

serial killers and killers and as a

15:14

professor of forensic psychology and criminal

15:16

justice, states many see these killers

15:18

as quote the boy he once

15:20

was and seek to mother him and

15:23

that for many of the skg s or the serial

15:25

killer groupies can quote change the

15:27

man and convert him into a better person.

15:29

Also, of no is the possibility of past trauma

15:32

abuse that leads to seeking another

15:34

power figure one blog

15:36

that was specific to talk about their own abuse and the

15:38

retaking of power and the loss of power

15:40

and fantasizing about sexual violence committed

15:42

by criminals um and this is a very specific

15:45

type of reasoning and fantasizing about depraved killers.

15:47

But some experts take a more specific look at the

15:49

women whose insecurities and

15:51

past history can make them vulnerable to the manipulative

15:54

tactics of some of these terrifying killers

15:56

like Charles Spanson or To Bundy.

15:59

And with that, some experts say

16:01

that the women may have trauma

16:03

and or abuse in their own lives, which can lead

16:05

to an insecurity of finding a morbid attraction

16:08

and fascination in these men, especially

16:10

those who have a history of abuse or violence towards

16:13

women. Though it could be

16:15

seen in the scope of grooming or being groomed in

16:17

the past or manipulation, it is

16:19

that need to continue that pattern

16:21

in their lives. A survivor's

16:23

essay talks about her infatuation and fantasizing

16:26

of these types of violent encounters with men like Ted

16:28

Bundy and describes the breakdown

16:30

of using that trauma violence to see herself as

16:32

a thing rather than a being who got hurt. It's

16:35

definitely a complex issue that

16:37

is not dug into too deeply.

16:40

Right, A lot of the accounts that I was looking at were

16:42

personal statements without actual therapeutic

16:44

backgrounds or people talking about that breakdown.

16:47

But it was interesting to see because there is,

16:49

as we have talked about when we talked about writing

16:51

out on sex or like the literature and fiction

16:53

of sex, the complications for trauma

16:56

victim or survivor and what does that look

16:58

like? And this goes one step are though when

17:00

they actually placed themselves into

17:03

a fantasy of a real abuser

17:05

or a killer in this instance. So it was really interesting

17:08

to see, but not correlated. So I would

17:10

love to see more about that. I say love

17:12

very loosely. There's also those that that

17:14

believe that the killers are innocent.

17:17

The many women who end up having a

17:19

relationship or actually marrying some of these men

17:22

either truly believe that the men were innocent

17:24

or tried to prove that they were innocent. Whether

17:26

it's through here and I will say extreme denial

17:29

or being manipulated by the killers themselves.

17:32

Women would go to trials, they would try to appeal

17:34

to TV or even go as far as trying to reopen

17:36

cases by doing their own investigations

17:39

in order to defend the killers. A

17:41

couple of examples we have are Rosalie

17:44

Martinez, who was on the defense team

17:46

for killer Oscar Boland, who was convicted

17:48

of killing three different women in Florida. As a

17:50

show of her belief in a Boland's

17:52

innocence, she left her then lawyer

17:54

husband to marry Boland, and they

17:57

remain married until his execution in twenty sixteen.

18:00

And then many women, including wives and girlfriends

18:02

of Richard Ramrez and Charles Manson, a clone

18:04

to the fact that they were not being fairly represented

18:06

by the media or even law enforcements.

18:09

Richard Ramerez, his wife, stated he was one of the kindest

18:11

people, and Charles Manson fans say that

18:13

he was an Earth warrior fighting

18:16

from Mother Earth. So there was definitely a lot of excuses

18:18

out there. Rights and

18:21

some experts say that some of these women are

18:23

looking for their own notoriety or fame,

18:26

which of course not surprising. They

18:28

were those who flocked to these men because of the

18:30

fame and notoriety attached to these

18:32

men's names. Many experts believe

18:34

that some of the women enjoyed having their names attached

18:36

to such infamous killers. Of course,

18:38

these women would be more classified as groupies

18:41

over hyper stophilia, as sexual arousal

18:43

is a prime proponent for this type of paraphilia.

18:46

Experts would talk about the women who were just trying

18:48

to get magazine covers and our stories and our

18:50

movie deals, even to the fact that Charles

18:53

Manson's last girlfriend, who was that they

18:55

believe seventeen nineteen year old at

18:57

the time, was trying to get the rights to his body

19:00

so she could use this and make money off

19:02

of it. So there's definitely a lot of conversation of

19:04

that and most likely pointed towards that

19:06

about why they're interested in these men rather than

19:09

actual love or hybrid staphilia, And

19:11

some have attributed to the extreme forms

19:14

of fantasism, which is kind of this whole

19:16

thing. In these instances, we witness the

19:18

women who are seeking relationships in their own

19:20

terms at a safe distance. So not

19:22

only are they trying to find this fantasy,

19:25

this fantasy goes to a point that at least

19:27

it's safe, like this is the safest way they can

19:29

do it. With many of the killers not being accessible,

19:31

women may cling to the idea of having that quote

19:33

perfect boyfriend who's not out cheating

19:36

and doing god knows what, which we know

19:38

what's bad, but are sitting safely, locked

19:40

away and will most likely remain there.

19:42

The women can control physically more than

19:44

emotionally the aspects of that relationship.

19:47

I like get that in terms

19:49

of I understand on paper,

19:51

but it's so weird to hear serial killers and like

19:54

safe relations It's

19:56

weird for sure. Authors

20:00

Sheila Eisenberg noted that during her

20:02

research for women who love men who kill,

20:04

many of the women she interviewed came from abusive

20:06

childhoods and have lived through their

20:08

fair amount of trauma as we said

20:10

earlier, and thought that perhaps for

20:13

these women, they were interested in these men as

20:15

quote someone who couldn't hurt them. They

20:17

could be courted, loves and be shown

20:19

intimacy without ever actually being around

20:21

them to get hurt um and this

20:23

makes them the perfect boyfriend. While women

20:26

can believe that they are loved and wanted without

20:28

breaking the fantasy with everyday

20:30

issues in real relationships. There's

20:32

no cleaning, there's no cooking or even

20:34

physically looking after them to grow bitter tours

20:36

and the men dote on them with written words and

20:39

sometimes a ten minute visit. Uh,

20:44

well, we are going to delve into

20:46

even more listeners, but

20:49

first you're gonna foster one more quick break for words

20:51

for more sponsor and

21:05

we're back, Thank you sponsor. So

21:08

what about the more aggressive hyper

21:10

stophilia? Were the women who followed

21:12

Manson aggressive hybristophiles?

21:15

And it's rare to see hyper stephilia

21:17

in men, But if they do, is it more likely

21:19

to be aggressive than passive? Though technically

21:22

Manson was not necessarily a murder at this point, the

21:24

love for him drove these women to murder for

21:26

him. Why So,

21:29

going back to that question, the answer

21:32

of was this aggressive hyper

21:34

stephilia? I mean

21:36

simply the answers though or they did

21:39

not necessarily participate because of Manson

21:41

and their sexual need for him. The

21:43

bigger counter narrative that has finally

21:45

started to circulate is the grooming, abusive

21:48

environment created by Manson and using young,

21:50

vulnerable women to do his bidding, including

21:52

trading sexual favors for his knees,

21:55

whether it was rent or other financial

21:57

gains. Right, And as we've learned and

22:00

stories have unfolded. We have seen

22:02

where they started to realize, oh, we

22:04

were being manipulated. We didn't know why,

22:07

we thought we were in love. And he would take

22:09

us out in the woods, talk to us some three hours, make us feel

22:11

special, and take us off the streets, essentially

22:14

because's a lot of them, more homeless young women. And

22:17

this is the way he protected us, and this is how

22:19

we gave back, and that

22:21

kind of extreme level of grooming. But

22:23

then when we look at the women who followed him after

22:25

his convictions, we would be leaning towards

22:28

the SKG narrative, or in the case of

22:30

his girlfriend, like we talked about Star, she used them in hopes

22:32

to be able to claim his body and display it. That's

22:34

according to some reports. Her mother and herself

22:36

have denied these reports. They were engaged

22:39

at that point, but Charles Manson died before they

22:41

could get married, so it was really interesting. There

22:43

isn't too much on the male the female killers

22:45

and scenario, as most of these are

22:48

categorized that it would be women in their

22:50

thirties and forties, but there are some

22:52

cases in In one of the cases for Manson's

22:54

followers, Susan Atkins, she did receive

22:56

a fair share of ad Myers and even married twice

22:59

while she was in and one of the dudes,

23:01

the first that she made, was actually a

23:03

dude who was been married thirty five

23:05

times apparently, and they

23:07

divorced because he was cheating on

23:10

her with another woman in prison. So

23:13

I guess he may be a true

23:15

hybristophile, but I don't know.

23:17

And there have been a couple of cases where sex

23:20

was a motivator to get men to kill, but not necessarily

23:22

the arousal factor of hybristophilia,

23:25

so it was kind of hard to tell where

23:27

they lie. Now, we did want

23:29

to look at some individual cases and how

23:31

far some of these women went, uh

23:33

knowing what these killers did that A great

23:35

example is Ted Bundy. He had fans

23:37

upon fans upon fans, to the point

23:40

he had many relationships while he was

23:42

in prison. He has dedicated blogs

23:44

and movies continuing to be made, including

23:46

the zac Efron film and more documentaries.

23:50

He married Carol and Boone while in

23:52

prison. She testified on his behalf

23:54

and by a loophole, and the County was legally

23:56

recognized as his wife after she made the declaration

23:58

in open court. She allegedly had a

24:01

baby with Bundy as well, so she finally admitted

24:03

to realizing he was a killer and was able

24:05

to dissolve the marriage in six

24:08

right. I think he was in jail, not in prison. I misquoted

24:10

that. However, it was really interesting because

24:12

the loophole was literally if you just say it in

24:15

court, they had to acknowledge it. So

24:17

so they got married. Interesting loophole

24:21

in the mail, like you're married. What. Apparently

24:24

the daughter had visitation with him too, so

24:27

it would be interested to see what happened in her

24:29

life later on. But then there

24:31

is also Richard Rameraz the night Stalker,

24:34

who actually got married while in prison as well

24:36

to magazine editor Dory Leoy,

24:38

who had sent him seventy five letters

24:41

while he was in prison. She always maintained

24:43

that he was innocent, and she spoke of him about his

24:45

love and how he was her buddy, and they remained

24:48

married until he died, and the Ramirez

24:50

had gotten thousands of fan mails through

24:52

his time in prison. When he was on

24:54

his actual killing spree, victims

24:56

often talked about his rotting keith,

24:58

unpleasant body odor, but apparently that

25:00

didn't stop the women. It was reported

25:03

that on the day of his arrest, a few women would climb

25:05

all their cars as they were at least he was going to be driven

25:07

by as they were taking him to jail, and started flashing

25:10

so the he was a rock star. Yeah,

25:13

even killer and known war Henry Lee Lucas

25:15

had women writing into the point.

25:17

A woman came out to the public as

25:19

one of his original victims to try to clear

25:22

his name. He had been accused of murdering

25:24

his girlfriend, Becky Powell, which began

25:26

his lying, confessing spree of all

25:29

the murders around the world, stating that

25:31

he killed hundreds of women all over, even at

25:33

one point saying he might have murdered people in Japan,

25:35

but when it finally came to light he was lying and

25:37

he started worrying about getting the death penalty.

25:40

A woman came out on national TV

25:42

as Becky Powell, saying that she had ran

25:45

away and was very much alive. After

25:47

being told she would have to get on the sand to

25:49

testify, it came out

25:51

she was also lying. She admitted

25:54

to being in correspondence with Lucas and being

25:56

fed information to be Becky so she could

25:58

help Lucas. Oh, and it

26:00

was kind of mentioned that even this

26:02

dude who is not an attractive man.

26:04

There was a lot of elements. Not the

26:07

brightest guy ever. Like literally

26:09

he said that he may have murdered someone in Japan.

26:11

When they asked him how he got there, he said he drove there.

26:14

That's the level of intelligence.

26:16

And he was not a good looking dude. A tita was also

26:19

all rotted out, but he still had fans,

26:21

and he partially lied because

26:23

of that attention, and he loved it. And then we also

26:25

have Chris Watt, who was a family annihilator

26:28

and continues to have women defend and

26:30

victim blamed his murdered wife. So

26:33

Chris Wat's case is a bit different as he was not necessarily

26:35

a serial killer, but a family annihilator,

26:37

and he, much like Bundy, was an attractive by

26:39

seemingly good family man, and

26:42

many followers continue to state that he

26:44

was framed, even though he's confessed repeatedly.

26:46

By the way, repeatedly, the twist

26:48

to the story goes beyond just women finding him

26:51

attractive and sending him hundreds of fan mail,

26:54

but the fact that it becomes a narrative of

26:56

victim blaming. Throughout social media, you

26:58

can see many women coming to the defense Chris's

27:00

action blaming his wife. They

27:02

accused her of being a bit and perhaps even being abusive

27:05

to him, and maintained that he was innocent, only

27:07

acting out of self defense. He also

27:10

has a different appeal as a man

27:12

of contrition, so after stating he has

27:14

found God and recognizes what he did is

27:16

wrong, women begin seeing him as the reformed

27:18

Christian and the compassion for him has become

27:21

more evident with the women who continue to reach

27:23

out to him and still are desired to have a

27:25

relationship with him. So, yeah,

27:29

those are a few of them, and of course there

27:32

are many more examples we can look

27:34

at like they're definitely have been stories

27:36

upon stories, but for now will pause

27:38

because it's a lot and as many as

27:41

we see written for specific cases and specific

27:43

criminals, there's not been in a lot of real

27:45

data, not a lot of real research for

27:47

women who could be considered under one of the first

27:50

mentioned types of obsession, I guess,

27:52

but definitely a fascinating and again

27:54

really disturbing topic. It has those moments

27:56

of like you try to figure out the

27:59

level of need and passion that

28:01

drives them, whether it is it shocked factor, or is

28:03

it because of their insecurity, or do

28:05

they truly believe that

28:08

in their fantasy they can change this man so

28:10

or these men in general. And we are

28:12

very obviously talking more of the heteronormative

28:15

assists. Look, because

28:17

that's kind of what we've seen the most of. Even

28:20

with killers like Jeffrey Dahmer,

28:22

women were going after them, even knowing that he

28:25

was attracted to young men, like it was the whole

28:27

thing. John Wayne Gacy, the same thing. So it

28:29

was an interesting topic about who

28:31

is made up of this fandom. Oh yeah,

28:34

I mean, and that's that's another bigger topic,

28:36

perhaps for another podcast, but it

28:39

has been a topic of like heated

28:41

debate about the way we report zero killers

28:43

and they do become these famous characters

28:46

in our culture and they are in our

28:48

media and there's just so much

28:51

interest there. But

28:55

yeah, well,

28:59

we hope that of you listeners are doing well.

29:01

We would love to hear from you. If you'd like to email

29:03

us. Our email is Stuff Media, mom Stuff

29:05

at iHeart media dot com. You can find us

29:07

on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram

29:09

and Stuff I Never Told You thinks It's always

29:11

to our super producer Christina. Thank you

29:14

and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never

29:16

Told You this production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts

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