0:05

Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and

0:07

welcome to Stephane Never told your production of I Heart Radio

0:19

Today. Listeners were so excited to once

0:21

again be joined by our friend Bridget

0:23

Todd. Hello, Bridget, Hello, I'm so excited

0:26

to be back here with y'all. Yeah,

0:28

we're so excited to have you. Um

0:30

for the series that

0:33

you have about women

0:35

on the Internet, where I suggested it be called

0:37

Winternet, but no one replied.

0:41

I think, you know, I like that. I think it's very positive.

0:44

Women are winning the Internet. We're winning

0:46

it every day. I like it. Ok, alright

0:48

that to me, I was like, someone has to explain to me why

0:50

you said this again, because I'm confused because

0:53

it is in winter? Is it because we're approaching winter? No

0:56

women on the Internet? Winternet? And

0:58

you know, I was eating after I sent

1:01

that anxiously for positive

1:03

feedback of my genius. The hours

1:05

sticked by no response.

1:10

Anyway, I thought I'd bring that up just to comfort

1:12

myself. Perfect. We are

1:14

very glad to have you. And

1:17

before we started recording, we

1:19

were just chatting about the

1:22

election and some of

1:24

our thoughts around that, and I did want to ask Bridget,

1:26

since you're in d C. How

1:29

has that been, Well,

1:31

it's been a can

1:34

I swear show? It's

1:37

been a bit of a show. Um. What's

1:39

wild is that as we were just sort of talking about

1:42

it's not over, you know here in d C

1:45

our city before the election,

1:47

our city was sort of hunkering down, as

1:49

I'm sure George Atlanta was, to putting you

1:51

know, boards on the windows and that kind of thing.

1:54

This weekend there's going to be a Proud

1:56

Boy march in d C. So we're

1:58

all sort of preparing for that. So it was

2:00

very much like, even though the election happened,

2:03

we're still sort of dealing with the impacts. But I do know,

2:05

even though I was not in d C on election

2:08

Day, um, all my friends and you

2:10

know, neighbors and community were and it

2:13

was a party on the streets.

2:15

Like I cannot tell you, I knew

2:17

people who were going to be happy when Trump

2:19

was voted out of office. I didn't know it

2:21

was going to be Sabray Champagne

2:23

with strangers in the streets happy. I

2:25

didn't know it was going to be people hanging

2:28

out of like windows, screaming into

2:30

blation happy. And I can

2:32

tell you I have never the only thing I have

2:34

seen that came even close. I

2:37

happened to be in Paris when France

2:39

won the World Cup. That's the only thing

2:41

that came close to like the vibe

2:43

on the streets in d C. Yeah,

2:46

I heard that it was Champagne

2:48

sells in d C. We're higher

2:51

than the past two New Years combined.

2:53

Yes, I think we're just you know, as

2:56

as a city. I've lived in DC for most of

2:58

my life. I think that people

3:00

from d C like like d C long haulers.

3:03

We really have a lot of like city pride.

3:05

And so I think when you know, I lived

3:07

here during the tail end of the Bush

3:09

years, I lived here for all of the Obama

3:12

years and then the Trump years, and I think the

3:14

Trump years just were so sad

3:16

and dark for people who lived in d C. And

3:18

they were like, oh, this guy's in my town, in my

3:20

community. I once saw Ivanka Trump outside

3:23

of our soul cycle in d C. You know, it's

3:25

like you would see these people, And so I

3:27

think the vibe is just so jubiliant

3:30

that we are rid of them, that we don't like column

3:33

January, they will leave and we might have to see

3:35

them again. That is very

3:38

exciting thought. You know

3:40

what. I immediately felt like brain space.

3:43

It was amazing, get freed up.

3:45

It's like taking off your bra really

3:48

really was. I felt

3:50

like I think I just said, felt like I just finished

3:53

running. And I was at that point, I'm just sitting

3:55

exhausted, but at least

3:57

one last thing was on us and on me,

4:00

and I was like yea, yeah, okay, and now I'm gonna

4:02

pass out because now I can rest exactly,

4:05

but we can't. No, no, And

4:07

I do want to say I've getten.

4:09

I've gotten a act of saying the date, which is always

4:12

a risky proposition. But today is Friday, so

4:14

I do know it, Um,

4:16

of March, just because as

4:18

we record this, of March, I

4:21

was so proud of the party.

4:24

You were so close. There

4:26

was a Friday the thirteenth in March. Yeah,

4:28

there was correct, but it's not see

4:31

I'm I'm very well. Yes it's

4:34

November. I okay, thank you for

4:36

that correction. Very important. But just

4:38

because as we record this, Trump still hasn't

4:41

uh conceded, So

4:44

you never know, things change really fast these

4:46

days. Um. But the last time you're here,

4:48

Bridget, you were talking a lot about misinformation

4:51

and disinformation and all of that, especially

4:54

ramping up to the election and

4:56

the intersectionality of it when um

4:58

we talked about gender or race, and

5:01

now that the election has happened, Uh,

5:04

that's something that you wanted to

5:06

revisit. Yes, exactly. You

5:08

know, I have been studying and working

5:10

on disinformation for a while and I kind of

5:12

erroneously thought like, oh, well, when the election

5:15

happens, we will be able to close the door

5:17

on this Pandora's box of false

5:19

information, online harassment, moss leading

5:21

stories and the like. How wrong we were.

5:24

You know, Luckily, election officials

5:26

really were predicting that from the

5:28

time the election happened, so from November

5:30

three to the time that we had an uncontested

5:34

you know winner that everybody agreed on, that

5:36

would really be a hotbed of disinformation.

5:39

And that really was exactly what we saw. So I'm

5:41

happy that some people were at least prepared for

5:43

it, and like we're taking the actions

5:45

and the steps necessary to like get us

5:47

all on the same page about what we would be seeing, because

5:50

that's exactly what happened. You know. On election

5:52

Day, even as the votes were still

5:54

being counted, Trump tweeted

5:56

that he had won. He declared himself the winner,

6:00

So that's like just a fabrication, is based

6:02

based in nothing. Um. So yeah,

6:04

we really saw fall stories,

6:06

disinformation and like outright

6:09

lies being spread about our our election

6:11

and our democratic process from

6:13

election day itself. Yeah,

6:17

and and ongoing. Like it's

6:19

one of those things that I'm almost surprised. It can

6:21

still surprise me that so many people

6:25

eagerly are buying into these things.

6:27

Um just you know, the accounts

6:30

of dead people voting, like millions of dead

6:32

people voting, or sharpies

6:35

all of the things. Yeah,

6:38

yeah, and um jeppy

6:41

Gate and seeing like Trump's twitter line

6:43

and like twitter line, twitter feed and every

6:45

tweet was being flagged for

6:48

all this passing of false information.

6:51

Um. And

6:53

I know we're going to talk about like how has social

6:56

media been Have

6:58

they been doing anything about this? So

7:01

I I'm sure that I'm sure the last time

7:03

I was here, I was crapping on social media platforms,

7:05

and they deserve to be crapped on, by the way, I'm not. I

7:07

am not conceding that, but I will have

7:09

I have to give them this. I do think they are trying.

7:12

They have spent a long time kind of dragging

7:14

their feed, and so part of me wonders if it's

7:17

like a little bit like too too little, too late. But

7:19

I want to give credit where credit is due. I do think

7:21

some of these platforms I just saw

7:23

that, like certain things just can't be left

7:25

up. And so as Annie, as you just said,

7:28

Twitter was taking down or at least putting

7:31

disclaimers on Trump's misleading

7:33

tweets about the election on election day

7:35

and the day after. His Twitter feed looks like one

7:38

of those redacted memos or things are like blacked

7:40

out because he was tweeting so many false

7:43

or misleading lies. I'm at the election,

7:45

and so I was happy to see that.

7:47

You know, Facebook has announced a couple of changes

7:50

that that they're making, including um turning

7:52

off their group recommendation features

7:54

so that like, you know, if you are in a group,

7:57

that might typically how how people get

7:59

radicalized only from like Facebook, You're you'll

8:01

be in one group, and then Facebook's algorithm

8:03

might be like, oh, well, you enjoy your

8:05

Second Amendment rights, Maybe you want to be part

8:07

of this group that advocates for exercise

8:10

I think those Second Amendment rights at

8:12

a polling station, right, Like, you know,

8:14

these these groups inch up more

8:16

and more aggressive and more and more extreme

8:18

and so they turned off that feature and it's not clear

8:21

when that feature will be turned back on. Actually, right

8:23

before coming to chat with you, ladies,

8:26

I was in a call with Facebook senior leadership

8:28

and they are not it's not clear when

8:30

they are going to be turning this feature back

8:32

on, but like, we think it should be at

8:34

least until after inauguration,

8:37

just so that you know, we can close

8:39

this chapter and move on to the next chapter. UM,

8:42

I'll say, like, you know, as much as I

8:44

crap on the leaders of these social

8:46

media platforms, it is better

8:49

for them to do something than nothing. So I definitely want

8:51

to give a credit or credit is due in terms of them

8:53

taking actual steps to you know,

8:55

address this. Yeah,

8:58

yeah, for sure. I I was shocked

9:00

and I saw that they were gonna until inauguration

9:03

day. I was very happy, but I was

9:05

surprised. Um,

9:07

and uh, Cheryl

9:10

Sandberg specifically has kind of been a part

9:12

of this conversation, right. Oh, yes,

9:14

So what's interesting about Cheryl Sandberg? And

9:16

I should say full disclosure, Like I bought

9:18

her a book Lean In. There was a time

9:21

in my life where her brand of feminism

9:23

I was like down to give it a shot. You know, I

9:25

wanted to see what she had to say. I

9:28

think it's been interesting how she

9:30

has really been able to largely

9:32

avoid a lot of the heat. Like when you think about

9:35

tech platforms behaving badly, I feel like

9:37

Mark Zuckerberg really takes up a lot of the air

9:39

in the room, and we kind of let Cheryl

9:41

Sandberg, at least in my view,

9:43

kind of skirt by. You know, I think for

9:46

a while, I think there was a vibe that, you

9:49

know, Zuckerberg and these tech bros at

9:51

Facebook are just running wild and Cheryl

9:53

Sandberg is doing the best she can to like rain

9:55

them in. Now, I think that that that that

9:57

reputation was completely unearned.

10:00

I think that these days she is definitely

10:02

taking some heat. Kara Swisher

10:04

earlier tweeted, Cheryl Sandberg

10:07

and the rest of Facebook executive team, you're

10:09

presiding over a toxic and dangerous stew

10:11

of misinformation and purposeful propaganda,

10:13

and it is a clear abdication of the job that you are

10:16

charged with for those of us who know you personally,

10:18

for shame, and that's

10:20

a pretty I imagine that these two women are

10:22

probably friends in the tech space, and

10:24

I think, you know, gone are

10:27

the days where you can just sort of be like, oh,

10:29

well, I work here, but like, you know, I'm

10:31

doing the best I can. I think that people

10:34

are fed up enough that I

10:37

think that even people who have

10:39

been able to avoid this kind of um

10:42

that's kind of scrutiny are getting pulled into

10:44

it, right, And yeah, I actually

10:46

just saw another tweet about the fact

10:48

that you are now a part of the problem, even

10:50

if you weren't the one, or you aren't

10:52

the one propagating these things, if you work for them

10:55

and understand this is what's happening, you

10:57

are complicit to their neglect

10:59

and or are feeding into this disinformation

11:02

and this use of abuse or

11:05

for another brand

11:07

or another conversation or the bigger conversation

11:09

of the abuse at

11:11

the Presidency has done in the past

11:14

four years and or their followers.

11:16

Absolutely, that's such a good point. You know what's

11:19

so interesting to me about this is, you

11:21

know, there was a time in my

11:23

life where a job at Facebook

11:26

would have been the most exciting thing in the world

11:28

for me. But those days are gone because I would

11:30

never work in Facebook. But you

11:32

know, I've often wondered, like, when are

11:34

we going to see Facebook

11:37

and some of these platforms that allow for

11:40

our democracy to be attacked in these ways. When

11:42

are sort of individual rank and

11:44

file tech employees going to When

11:47

are we going to make it like an uncool place to

11:49

work? Right? Like, I feel like there's so many industries

11:51

where you know, if you choose to go into this industry,

11:54

people might look at you a little bit funny. And I think

11:56

we're seeing those conversations happen now. But

11:58

what I also think it's very interesting is that at

12:00

a lot of these companies, oftentimes

12:03

it's just the rank and file staff who

12:06

want to be part of the solution. They want

12:08

they don't want to be making tools that like wreck our

12:10

democracy and like wreck our elections. They

12:12

want to be they they got into tech because they want

12:14

to make change. And I think what we

12:17

really see now is like rank

12:19

and file staffers trying to

12:21

agitate from within, but the

12:23

leadership, the people who actually have the power within

12:26

the organization to do something not listening

12:28

to them, which happened

12:30

so often exactly, they're just

12:32

looking at numbers and in the story and not listening

12:34

to what's the actual real world

12:36

ramifications of what's happening.

12:39

Um. I was actually using Facebook

12:42

as my point of giant to

12:44

see where we were on the election night,

12:46

like, Okay, this state has been called, and this state

12:48

has been called, and this state has been called. And

12:50

it was really interesting to watch

12:52

the different people react on Facebook

12:55

as well. And it's really really disheartening

12:57

because it's not just the president

12:59

and his little minions, it is the Republican

13:02

Party who are backing him, and

13:04

that is so so dangerous

13:06

for them to sit there and be like, this is all false. This

13:09

is all uh not legal votes

13:11

or illegal votes, which is a whole other rhetoric

13:14

in itself and so disgusting.

13:16

But then it starts you started questioning, well, you

13:20

you just gotta reelected. Do

13:22

we need to look at your numbers as well? I

13:24

mean with this conversation

13:26

and why are they disciphing it in such a way

13:29

that people believe parts and bits of

13:31

lies but not the whole actuality. That's

13:34

such a good point. It's what's so funny is if you look

13:36

at the different claims that are being

13:38

made, all these claims are baseless. But if you look at the

13:40

different claims that are being made that like, oh

13:43

there was a voting irregularity here, this voter front,

13:45

there so many of them are that they

13:47

couldn't all be true, right, Some of them are contradictory,

13:50

some of them like are opposite where you're like, oh,

13:52

so they were throwing poles in

13:54

the river and also the sharpie thing and

13:56

this water marketing, like if it would

13:58

it would be. It's not possible for them all

14:00

to be true. It's just like such a such

14:03

a like mixed bag of

14:06

wild ass conspiracies, and no

14:08

one has stopped. Like we're

14:10

just like picking and people are just picking and choosing

14:12

the wares that suit them. Like in some states they're

14:15

saying stop the count. In other states

14:17

are saying no, continue the Count's like, well, which

14:19

one is? It can't be both? Yeah,

14:22

I have a firm believer people do all

14:24

kinds of mental gymnastics to believe what they

14:26

want to believe. Um,

14:29

So, I guess looking at

14:31

these claims that we saw

14:34

during the election, um

14:37

could you I know you've talked about it a little bit, but how

14:40

did we see them play out? What should

14:42

we continue to look for and what

14:45

ultimately is like the main purpose

14:48

of these It's a great question,

14:50

you know. Definitely Trump was the

14:52

one I feel leading the charge into this idea

14:54

that the election was rigged in some way,

14:56

or you know that something fishy happened to

14:59

be like ab slutely crystal

15:01

clear, there has been no documented

15:04

evidence of voting irregularity of any

15:06

kind in this election. It's just not it's just

15:08

not there. There is no it's just

15:11

by end of sentence period, point blank. And

15:13

so we see these continued, this continued

15:16

narrative that the election was stolen or rigged,

15:18

all the things that y'all mentioned, this whole Sharpiegate

15:21

thing, this idea that poll

15:23

workers were ripping up

15:26

Trump votes or like that a Biden Harris

15:28

van like something like something I'd have Scooby

15:31

Doo or something like I'm Biden Harrissan van.

15:33

They weren't. They're smart enough to try to wriggle

15:35

election. They're not smart enough to not have Biden

15:38

Harriss on the side of the van. They pull up ensure

15:40

completense. You know, these stories

15:42

of like a van playing up and like bags

15:45

of ballots being like smuggled out and then

15:47

the speeds away. This is stuff

15:49

from movies, y'all. This is not reality.

15:51

So all of these like baseless

15:54

claims, And I think the point is one

15:56

when you have so many different claims of

15:59

voting irregularity. I think one of the

16:01

points is just to overwhelm. It overwhelms

16:03

both like fact checkers and poll

16:05

workers, people whose job it is to look into this kind

16:07

of thing. And I think it has overwhelms your average

16:10

person when you hear over and over

16:12

and over and over again all of these stories amplified

16:15

about voting regularities and the

16:17

election of being arranged on all of that. Eventually,

16:19

when you hear things enough, it doesn't really

16:21

matter if there's evidence or not. It doesn't really matter

16:23

if it's true or not. That's how disinformation works.

16:26

It creates this sort of false reality

16:28

and it kind of doesn't even matter if there's evidence

16:31

or if it's true. And so, unfortunately,

16:34

the point of all of this is

16:36

to drive home this

16:38

idea that our elections are rigged,

16:40

that that the election was stolen, that our

16:42

democracy does not work. And I

16:45

have to say, unfortunately,

16:47

I think in some ways Trump has been a little bit

16:49

effective at doing this. I think despite

16:52

the fact that there have been no, uh

16:54

no documented cases of voting a regularity

16:56

in this election, we've already seen like

16:59

republic Can leadership using the phrase

17:02

illegal votes, right, and so that even

17:04

that phrase itself is a misnomer, and I'm

17:06

so disappointed to see

17:08

that that phrase is making its way into our

17:11

our vocabulary, because you

17:13

can't have a legal votes if there's no

17:16

documented widespread voter or

17:18

regularities or fraud. So it's like it's

17:20

like a fiction, and it's disappointing to see

17:22

the way that this fiction has already been sort of like

17:25

made real in the minds of some people. And

17:28

I, you know, I just think

17:31

obviously, no no elected

17:33

official should be getting up, should be using their platform

17:36

to lie. But I think when you lie

17:38

to people about the efficacy

17:41

of our of our democracy, that is

17:43

something that is something that's like truly

17:46

beyond the pale, Like just like really

17:48

sit with that we have the leader of

17:50

our country purposely

17:52

trying to make people lose

17:55

faith in our democratic system.

17:57

Like there are plenty of people who have in

18:00

the White House, who've been elected officials and I didn't agree

18:02

with and I didn't like, but they wouldn't

18:04

do that, Like that is a very different thing,

18:07

right, I mean, he kind of Trump

18:10

was the basis of having his personal account

18:12

being constant

18:15

during his term. No one else did that. No one

18:17

else had the to this level, especially

18:20

with the followers. And I didn't want to ask

18:22

uh specifically to the

18:24

language, how being

18:27

obviously it's a big key, But it seems

18:29

like Trump and himself has figured out

18:31

that if he makes specific phrases that

18:34

are grammatically able to

18:36

be catchy enough and it spreads

18:38

like wildfire, how dangerous? And how often

18:40

has that been used? Especially for this election? I

18:43

know that random as question, but no, no,

18:45

I was just thinking about that. It's a it's a

18:47

great question. You are exactly right, And what's so

18:49

annoying about Trump? Like? I hate, I

18:51

hate to give him like your your listeners who like don't

18:53

feel the way that I do about Trump are probably like, we

18:55

get it, you hate Trump. But

18:58

the thing that it gets me about him is that he's

19:01

so effective at certain things. And one

19:03

of those things is just what you said right, speaking

19:05

in in sound bites and quotables,

19:07

And I think you know, like

19:10

even that phrase itself illegal votes,

19:12

if you didn't know any better, it sounds

19:15

it sounds so reasonable, like

19:17

like Avanka Trump tweeted, I think the

19:19

day ace of the election, we should count

19:22

every legal vote and don't and not count

19:24

illegal votes. This shouldn't be controversial

19:27

and on its face you're like, oh, who would disagree

19:29

with that? But when you actually take it apart,

19:32

when when you have to like bring in a little bit of nuance

19:34

or like thoughtful in this's around it, you think, quit

19:36

a minute, there aren't there aren't illegal

19:38

votes, So like why even have that be in

19:40

the conversation. It really creates this like false

19:43

equivalency. But I think you are subot

19:46

on and that Trump has this ability

19:48

to speak in sound bites or tweets

19:51

that can really catch on. Like think about

19:53

these like wacky nicknames that he's given

19:56

people like sleepy Joe and you know

19:58

all like little more go Like he,

20:01

I mean, I have to give it to him. He I

20:04

know what catch sprays when I hear one, and like he really

20:07

you can just really tell Yeah,

20:11

we have a lot more to get into in this conversation,

20:13

but first we have a quick break for a work from responsor.

20:28

I am back, thank you. Sponsored. One

20:31

thing I've noticed, and I do attribute

20:33

this to this spread of misinformation

20:36

and disinformation and Trump being really effective

20:38

at this is my sense

20:40

of reality is really warped now, Like

20:43

I feel like I can't trust things that

20:45

should I should be like, yes, that is

20:48

the truth. I don't have that

20:50

anymore. Like I remember when people were texting

20:52

me about that four seasons total landscaping.

20:55

It was like, I don't this

20:57

can't be true. And I was like looking

20:59

at it like just I

21:02

don't know reality.

21:06

Oh, I mean it was hilarious. I'm glad it was true.

21:08

Um, but that's just something

21:11

I feel like this whole

21:13

election we're going to have to reckon with and

21:15

all of this misinformation

21:17

and disinformation. And when

21:20

we were chatting before, we were talking about being

21:22

in Georgia, which right before we

21:24

came on was sort of officially projected

21:27

to be a Blues state, and

21:29

we have these looming senate

21:32

races, two senate races in our

21:34

state. Um, so I

21:36

know that this isn't going to go away

21:38

anytime soon. But even for people outside

21:41

of Georgia, now that this presidential

21:43

election has come and gone, why

21:45

is it important that we keep having these conversations

21:48

about disinformation and misinformation.

21:51

I'm so glad you asked that. Well, one thing, I do want

21:53

to go back to something that you said about, you know, this

21:55

feeling of living in a a false

21:58

reality. I definitely identify with that.

22:00

Like the total landscape. I think was a good example.

22:03

When the story first broke that Trump had COVID, I

22:05

remember thinking, like, does he really have it?

22:07

Like as he just said, like, And it really

22:10

revealed to me the depths to which

22:12

I felt like I had been sort of gaslighted by this administration,

22:15

where it's like I couldn't I felt like I couldn't trust

22:17

my own perception of reality. And

22:20

during the day before the election, um,

22:22

my father, who is you know six,

22:25

he had a health incident and so he went to the hospital

22:28

and let me tell and so the issue

22:30

that he had was like cognited. He was having trouble

22:32

with his memory and and having trouble kind of like

22:34

understanding what was going on. He's much better now, but that

22:36

was a situation on election day, And

22:39

let me tell you, when we were trying

22:41

to watch election results, he

22:43

would he would be like asleep and

22:45

then wake up and they would be showing like a little

22:47

clip of a speech where Trump appears to

22:49

be, you know, claiming himself the victor,

22:52

and my dad would be like, wait, did Trump win?

22:55

And it was so difficult for me to be like, I

22:57

know that you're I know that you've been in and out. I

23:00

can't explain to you why

23:02

this is not Like, I know, you're seeing Trump say

23:04

that he won on television. All

23:06

I can tell you is it's not true. I know it seems

23:09

like it happened, but trust me that it didn't.

23:11

And I was like, yeah, this is a wild ask thing to

23:13

have to be explaining to somebody that like, like,

23:15

why am I watching Trump on TV say

23:17

that he won the election when the election does not seem to

23:19

be over. I was like, I know, Dad, it's wild. What can

23:21

I tell you? But

23:27

to your question, you know, in terms of what we should

23:29

be looking out for now, you know this

23:31

is not over and and we will have

23:34

to continue to be vigilant about disinformation

23:36

and misinformation, like more so

23:39

I think than that we were before. You

23:41

know, the entire control of our

23:43

Senate is going to come down to Georgia. We've

23:45

already seen disinformation on

23:47

social media, specifically as it pertains

23:50

to poll workers and vote counters.

23:52

Right. We've had stories of people who had to

23:54

go into hiding because of rumors

23:57

spread on social media about the vote

23:59

counts sess. And we know that when we

24:01

could get to these Georgia runoffs, that's just

24:03

gonna be worse. And I have to say, the majority

24:06

of poll workers in this country are women

24:08

and black women, and so we know that

24:10

black women and women are disproportionate

24:12

recipients of attacks when it comes to disinformation on

24:15

social media, and so it's only going

24:17

to get worse. And that's why it's so important that

24:19

these platforms and these companies figure

24:21

out what their commitment is to

24:23

protecting our democracy now right

24:26

like it is it is, we know what's going to

24:28

happen. It is not enough to just wait

24:31

and let poll workers be attacked

24:33

and let Facebook be used to you

24:36

know, organize people who want to show up

24:38

in real life with with weapons

24:40

for like extremist meetings,

24:42

you know, in in in real life, we

24:45

don't. We know that these things are threats. We know that

24:47

these things are going to happen. So what we want

24:49

is for people to be the people with power to be proactive

24:52

at building a plan for what they're going to

24:54

do when these things happen, and to stop them

24:56

before they start. But you know, even

24:59

though we have a winn her uh,

25:01

a new president, it is not over.

25:04

And it's just gonna be that much more important. Also

25:06

with the fact that Kamala Harris is going to be in the White

25:08

House. We know that when Obama was elected,

25:11

it's not like eartherism and racist

25:13

attacks on him stopped. In fact, they got worse.

25:15

And so I think with a black woman in

25:17

the White House, we're going to just continue

25:20

to see these real horrible

25:22

attacks rooted in her her identity

25:24

continue to flourish. Right

25:27

And in speaking of you did mention

25:29

about that the most of the bollworkers being women

25:31

as well as Kamala Harris, the things that she goes through.

25:34

How is this information and misinformation

25:36

a gender justice issue? How is that pertaining

25:38

to women specifically in so many different

25:41

ways? You know, even just look at COVID,

25:43

the majority of essential workers are women.

25:46

The majority of people in the healthcare field are women.

25:48

However, when we have like one

25:50

of the big topics where disinformation

25:53

misinformation formish is is COVID

25:55

and and how you stay safe with COVID, And so if

25:57

you have platforms that are allowing

26:00

for misinformation and false stories pertaining

26:02

to COVID just flourish, You're hurting

26:04

the women who are essential workers, who have who are who

26:06

are the majority of the people who are at the front lines

26:09

of the of the pandemic right now health care

26:11

workers, the majority of which are women being impacted.

26:13

And so really, when you start pulling these

26:15

things apart and seeing who is being

26:17

hurt, which communities are are having to shoulder

26:20

a disproportionate level of harm, it's

26:22

always women and it's always us.

26:25

And so you know, thinking about these

26:27

things from a perspective of

26:29

like, oh, well, it just harms

26:31

everybody equally, that would be that would

26:33

be great if it was true. But we know that's not

26:35

true. We know it it's women who end up shouldering

26:38

a disproportionate amount of the impact. That's

26:42

a great point, um. I

26:44

was researching some numbers

26:46

around, like the predictions of COVID cases

26:49

in this winter that's been called a dark winter,

26:52

and I was so like, I

26:54

was getting anxious looking at these things. And

26:57

it's just so frustrating that you have

27:00

a safety measure that shouldn't have been politicized,

27:02

but it was, and now people

27:05

are getting sick and dying because of it. And

27:08

it is a part of that of getting

27:11

these messages from the very top that you

27:14

know, don't wear a mask. I don't see the point. It's fine,

27:17

um, And seeing these stories and I

27:19

mean to me, they sound ridiculous of claims like well

27:21

that you breathe the COVID back in and it's worse

27:23

if you wear a mask and things like that,

27:26

but it's working, like people are

27:29

buying into it. Um.

27:32

Yeah, So you can really see like the effectiveness

27:34

of this and right now specifically

27:37

the deadly deadliness of it. Absolutely.

27:40

I really I'm so glad that you brought that up. I

27:42

really think if we ever

27:44

are able to get COVID under control,

27:47

I think we need to have a real serious

27:49

conversation as a nation about

27:51

the way that we allowed sexism

27:55

and stop attitudes

27:57

around gender to hurt people. And a lot

27:59

of those people were women, right, Like, even

28:01

on top of what the point that you just made about

28:03

how masks were really feminized, it's

28:06

women. When you look at who the

28:08

majority of the people who have like lost wages

28:10

and lost jobs and checked out of the workforce

28:12

altogether, it's women. Right. I've

28:15

seen story after a story about how women

28:18

have just had to like absorb the blowback

28:20

of this pandemic, and so on

28:22

top of that, like like we're the ones who are

28:24

being disproportionately harmed and displaced,

28:26

and you know, marginalized

28:28

by the pandemic, and on top of that, like people

28:31

are still equating just like the basic common

28:34

sense protocols of how we can like stay

28:36

safe with like women

28:38

there therefore bad, you know, talking about how

28:40

like wearing a mask makes you like some

28:43

kind of like I don't know, feminized

28:45

soy boy or something. It really

28:48

is so harmful. And

28:51

if there's ever been something that showed us how

28:53

dangerous and corrosive and toxic

28:56

like these ideas of gender can be, it

28:58

should be the pandemic, right,

29:01

I mean we saw it in just environmental

29:03

issues that was so gendered and they're

29:05

like, wait, we're trying to save the world, and

29:08

you want to say you can't do that because it

29:10

makes you look feminine. What

29:12

in the hell is wrong with you? But it

29:15

seems like when it comes to carrying an empathy, it's

29:17

automatically assumed that that is going to be feminine

29:19

and that it shows weakness. To show that

29:21

you care shows weakness, so therefore don't

29:24

do it. And it's such an absurdity because

29:26

we talked about this the last time, how

29:28

Donald Trump's campaign all rode

29:31

into that that masculine is the

29:33

only way to be and if we really want

29:35

this country to be great again is

29:37

to go back to the norm of heteronormative

29:41

ideas of the nineteen twenties. Essentially,

29:43

it is such an absurdity in itself

29:46

that we would rather look strong

29:50

and I say that in a very like loose manner

29:52

than to care for others. Yeah,

29:56

you know, it's such a so absurd and you know,

29:58

and in seeing that also the same

30:00

thing with the misinformation and disinformation in

30:02

the politics. I've seen the misinformation that's

30:04

happening already in our Senate race where

30:06

they're taking things out of context and sending

30:08

it out where they're allowing for uh

30:12

Trump tactics. I don't know if there's gonna be a

30:14

like an actual term for that soon. Um,

30:17

where our our Republican senators and comfants

30:19

are using that and fell fully

30:21

into that. The point that we

30:24

have a Q and on person going into

30:26

the House that's representing us

30:28

because they are allowing for this

30:31

as the norm, and the fact of

30:33

the matter is it's still working enough

30:35

that we have a runoff instead of a win like

30:38

that. Yes, a thousand times,

30:40

yes, I could not be like snapping

30:42

my fingers and nodding my head in agreement,

30:46

and I just really think

30:48

about that, the fact that caring

30:50

about others empathy, that's

30:52

being framed as something that's bad,

30:55

something that you don't want from your your

30:57

leaders, right that is that

30:59

doesn't like any sense, it's good

31:01

to care about others. Caring about others

31:03

is not a bad thing. I think. When

31:05

Biden did his town hall, and just to

31:08

be clear, like I'm happy that he's going to be our next

31:10

president, but like he's not the end all be all of like

31:12

progressivism or by any means. But

31:14

when he did his town hall, I don't remember

31:16

who it was, but some Republican was

31:18

like, oh, it was almost like watching

31:21

Mr. An episode of Mr. Rogers, you

31:23

know, it's just like like we get it, you care.

31:26

And I was like, why is it a bad thing? Like like where

31:28

are we what? Like what world are we living

31:30

in? Where you know, all

31:32

caps tweets are

31:34

good, like all all caps tweets about

31:37

how like you have been cheated that's

31:39

good, and like empathy that's bad,

31:41

like like up as down, black as white. Yeah,

31:45

Mr. We

31:48

do have some more for you listeners, but first

31:51

we're gonna pause for a quick break for a word from our sponsor.

32:07

And we're back, thank you. I

32:10

think the difference between the left

32:12

and the right right now, the extreme

32:14

right, I will say, and the extreme left

32:16

we don't see these people's I say

32:19

we the left does not see people as

32:21

gods. This is not our choice. This

32:23

is not someone that like God blessed them into

32:25

the situation, or whoever you worship, made

32:27

this person for us. It's gonna fix everything.

32:29

No, we're just trying to find out what normal

32:32

is. And we just really want to get back to the point

32:34

that we don't have to fight with people every day about

32:37

again the lies about the masks, and the

32:39

lies about whether or not we should shut down CDC or

32:41

whether we should care, or whether we should fight with

32:43

a ten year old girl who cares about her environment, Like,

32:47

we just want to get to the point where that's

32:49

not a thing. But we see

32:51

that the right, like I have seen

32:53

so many freaking memes about Jesus

32:55

touching Donald Trump, Like I have never in

32:58

my life been like, what

33:00

is with this, with

33:02

this kind of level of worship for a man

33:05

who does, honestly

33:07

in the end, other than wanting

33:09

to win absolutely. I mean, that's

33:12

what I always tell people as someone who has been

33:14

in politics and activism and organizing

33:16

on the left for a very long time. No

33:18

elected official is like

33:20

your best friend, right. You are electing someone

33:22

that you think you can move, that you think you can

33:24

push, that you are that you are down

33:27

to be holding accountable for four years.

33:29

And I'm no huge fan of

33:31

Biden Harris. I'm I voted for them.

33:33

I'm happy they're in the White House, but I'm more happy

33:36

to spend the next four years pushing them and

33:38

holding them accountable and you know, making

33:40

hard asks, right, Like, I think

33:43

that when you are picking an elected official, you

33:45

want to pick somebody that you can't see yourself

33:47

holding accountable and not picking

33:50

like this is an American idol. You're not picking

33:52

your like you know, your best friend for life,

33:54

or like someone who you think is going to be,

33:56

you know, the best. Ever, it just

33:58

doesn't work that way. Like every I feel every politician

34:00

eventually will break your heart. And so we really

34:02

just got to be thinking strategic about

34:04

who you pick and who you vote for. But it's

34:06

certainly you know, yeah, like this

34:09

idea that Trump has been blessed

34:11

by God or something. I mean, like, I

34:14

guess I have a lot of questions

34:16

about people who feel who can feel that way. I guess

34:20

again, so do I because I'm very very

34:23

confused. You know, there's another thought, and this maybe

34:25

a whole episode in itself. We're gonna think we

34:28

probably will. But the idea, like when

34:30

I'm talking about religion, when we're talking about

34:32

God in general, that that does play

34:34

on this very heteronormative idea

34:36

of what is chosen and what is

34:39

good and what isn't what is not good, because you know, we

34:41

can talk about the fact that a majority of people

34:43

who are voting in the right are doing it based

34:45

on abortion and ty abortion and

34:48

their quote unquote pro life stance,

34:50

and that term should be done away with anyway,

34:53

um, and it does. It seems like it hones in

34:55

on women in itself, like especially

34:58

those who have grown up in religious

35:01

basis. And I wonder also

35:03

because that's what I see and

35:05

play a lot of the time to get

35:07

at people, uh for that stance,

35:10

Like the commercials and stuff. One of the big

35:12

conversations, one of the big points they say

35:14

is we are here to support police,

35:17

We are here to keep the way of life, the

35:19

American way of life. And it's such

35:21

a weird rhetoric, but it seems to work

35:23

for those who are steeped in

35:25

tradition um as. In fact that Judge

35:28

Alito just has kind

35:30

of stepped into some controversy because he just finally

35:32

said what he felt and that he wanted to bring

35:34

traditional American

35:36

households back to what it was and this is

35:38

like, this is love and this is morality. And

35:41

it's kind of interesting that we can look

35:43

at some of that misinformation

35:45

and making sure they use that

35:47

as a prompt to get those voters

35:49

and to keep those voters in It majority

35:52

worked with older white women. Yes, it

35:54

really is. It's so effective. You

35:56

know, I've seen um disinformation

35:59

around abortion, Like I've seen

36:02

memes on Facebook, especially where

36:04

they're trying to they they'll say like, oh, you're a

36:06

woman can terminate a pregnancy

36:09

at you know, up until the moment

36:11

that she gives birth. And it's like, no, if someone

36:13

if someone is termed, if someone is doing an abortion

36:16

that late in the game, it's

36:18

something else is going on, right, Like

36:20

like we I've seen so many,

36:23

so many instances where it's just outright

36:25

lies about abortion because dis

36:27

informers know that these topics that require

36:30

a little bit of nuance or that are emotionally charged,

36:32

like those are the ones that really work. And you

36:34

know, I think I think that you're right about it

36:37

being something that really does move voters. And I

36:39

have to say, a growing demographic

36:42

of Latin of the Latin X community voted

36:44

for Trump and abortion was an

36:46

issue that they self reported as something

36:48

that that moved them. That they are

36:51

not there, that they're not okay

36:53

with the fact that the Biden Harris

36:55

administration is pro choice, and so

36:57

I do think there is so much more work to be done

37:00

around how we message

37:03

voters on these topics

37:05

that require a little bit of sensitivity and

37:07

a little bit of nuance to discuss. I think that we have so

37:09

much work to be done, and I think on

37:12

the left, I'm excited to see

37:14

us starting to have some conversations around

37:16

like, well, how can we how

37:19

can we provide off ramps for

37:21

people who have been misled by very

37:24

savvy disinformers. To be clear,

37:27

I don't know what that looks like, that is, like, I'm

37:29

happy to have those conversations, but I

37:31

do think, you know, we have a country

37:33

where a good chunk of people have

37:36

been really cruelly misled

37:38

by very effective disinformers

37:41

around things like Q and on around

37:43

things like reproductive care. And

37:46

I do want to build off ramps

37:48

for those people to be like, listen, things

37:50

got wild there and you got you got, you got taken

37:52

by somebody who did not have your best interests at

37:54

heart. Here's how we get you back to where you need

37:57

to be. You know, I want to be part of those conversations,

38:00

right, I mean that is a big question because I

38:02

definitely have you know, we've talked about it before with

38:05

my family and itself and trying to have his conversation

38:07

and just literally fights and

38:09

crying, like that's what ends up happening.

38:12

But how do you approach this

38:14

in a way that you can have a constructive

38:16

conversation without being

38:19

angry with one another because you know, of

38:21

course they have their ideas, and I've

38:23

heard my parents ideas, and I grew up under their parents,

38:25

my parents ideas, but I came from

38:28

that to this to see the practical like,

38:30

uh, this is where the lies were and this

38:32

is why this is incorrect. And I've been with friends

38:35

who have had to have as what they would

38:37

call late term abortion, and not by

38:39

the way I've heard it. I've heard them recently

38:41

say after birth abortions, and I'm still

38:44

trying to figure that out. So I'm like, are you talking about Kelly

38:46

babies? It's happening. So

38:48

I think that in itself has been a new platform

38:51

too. I was like, y'all are going real

38:53

real into this, but talking

38:56

to them about their tragedy and having

38:58

to be there and the fact that this is like going

39:01

through these painful things and then being accused

39:04

of doing something so horrible as

39:06

in like you killed your child, you do this on

39:08

purpose? And I just to watch that

39:10

conversation and trying to sit down, and

39:13

I'm like, you understand what you're doing, right,

39:15

You are vilifying the very people

39:18

who are with you and want these children and

39:20

love these you know, love these unborn

39:23

babies as you want to you know, whatever you want

39:25

to call and term them. Is the fact that they intended

39:28

to have this child but they couldn't, and

39:30

that is tragedy in itself. But

39:32

how do you have these conversations of like

39:35

we need to break down and being able to communicate

39:38

with each other, and also I need to be able to

39:40

tell you, hey, that video you

39:42

just posted, yeah, it's bullshit and

39:44

it is ridiculous. How do we how do you have these

39:47

conversations? So I have a lot to say

39:49

about this one. I think on the abortion

39:52

part of this specifically, I think it

39:54

really comes down to abortion storytelling.

39:56

There have been so many amazing groups

39:58

like we Testify UM shout

40:00

out to abortion, who have been doing such amazing work

40:02

in this space, really helping

40:05

people tell their stories about

40:07

their abortion experience in a way that

40:09

can counter some of this misinformation

40:11

and disinformation. Right. I also

40:13

think, you know, for heterosexual

40:17

folks out there, or folks who have like male

40:19

identified folks out there, I

40:22

don't like the fact that oftentimes

40:24

talking about abortion and talking about reproductive

40:27

care is just seen as like a woman's

40:29

job or a woman's role, when

40:31

we know that so many men out

40:33

there have benefited from an abortion. And I

40:36

don't like the fact that it's just like on

40:38

us as women to to be

40:41

bearing our souls on something that is very

40:43

sensitive and like difficult to talk about.

40:45

Sometimes it's just up to us. And so I think

40:47

more men should be stepping up

40:50

to the plate and be like, yeah, abortion

40:52

impacted my life in these ways, and here's what it

40:54

looks like for us, or here's what it looks like for me, right,

40:56

it shouldn't just be on us to to shoulder

40:58

this burden. And terms of how we

41:00

talk to our families about some

41:02

of the disinformation that they can get wrapped up in.

41:05

Pan America Foundation has a wonderful guide

41:07

if you just google Pan America and and misinformation

41:10

on how you talk to your family you

41:13

know about disinformation, and some of

41:15

the things they recommend are do it in private,

41:17

Like you don't want to be doing it on a public Facebook

41:19

post one, because you might be just like

41:22

pushing that wild post into more people's

41:24

feeds. And then also it's like, it's

41:26

just it's weird when you get called

41:28

out in public people. It just people can be already

41:31

on the defensive. So if you do it in private, if you

41:33

send them a private message or call them on the phone,

41:35

it might be a little bit better so that it's

41:37

not they're not coming from a place of like, well,

41:39

all my followers are watching this interaction

41:42

and I have to react in a certain way. So doing it in

41:44

private. And also just something else

41:46

that you said, Sam, like keeping

41:48

empathy at the front of your mind, right,

41:51

So like remember trying to put yourself

41:53

in this person's shoes. I have found that

41:55

nine times out of ten, people who are getting caught

41:57

up in lies and distortions on

42:00

social media especially, they are scared,

42:02

they are fearful. They are looking for answers,

42:05

They're looking for explanations. They're looking

42:07

for anything that makes how they

42:09

feel or what they think or their worldview.

42:12

They're looking for anything to make that feel

42:14

okay. And these disinformers

42:16

know that, and they are sure, you

42:18

know, right as rain, they will be there to fill

42:20

that gap. And so, knowing kind

42:23

of a little bit about the emotional situation

42:25

that somebody who is getting taken by

42:27

disinformation, knowing a little bit about

42:29

where they might be, and being a little bit willing

42:31

to like have a conversation, that that acknowledges

42:33

that. UM. One of the reasons why I

42:36

got involved in disinformation in the first place

42:38

is that I there's not really

42:40

another way to say it. I feel like I lost a good

42:42

friend to conspiracy theories

42:44

and disinformation, and I feel

42:47

like I waited too late to

42:49

do the things that I'm suggesting that people

42:51

do now. Like I spent a lot of time getting

42:54

into like heated back and forth on Facebook

42:56

where we would be arguing in the comments and then people

42:58

would be like texting me about it and

43:00

it would be like a big tense thing. I

43:03

later realized that I

43:05

was just pushing him further and further into

43:08

this kind of thinking, and you know,

43:10

we are we are not friends now, And I

43:12

look back and I think, gee,

43:14

you know, what would it have

43:16

been like if I had took the time

43:19

to talk to my friend have a

43:21

real conversation about where he was at and

43:23

why he was being drawn to some of these

43:25

wilder conspiracy theories on the net right,

43:27

Like, you know, I would have probably found out that

43:29

he had just moved to a new city and was really lonely.

43:32

I would have probably found out that you know, conspiracy

43:35

theory groups online all for a kind of like

43:38

seven online community that he was probably

43:40

crazing. I would have found out all of this stuff. But I never

43:42

took the time. I did everything wrong, And

43:44

I just I want people to know

43:47

that if someone that you love, if someone who you

43:49

have been in community with, you see them,

43:51

you see yourself losing them, you have

43:53

options that you can take. You don't have to do what I did. We

43:55

just to do everything wrong and then like you

43:58

know a bit about it on Facebook and then

44:00

like be salty in the comments you

44:02

can, you have what you have resources

44:05

that can help you figure out how to have this conversation.

44:07

But I do think we need to be having

44:10

these conversations, you know. I think that people

44:12

that get wrapped up in

44:14

this, they need to know there are off ramps.

44:16

They need to know that, like they will not be shunned if

44:18

they if they come out of it. I think that's very important.

44:21

M Ah, that's great advice.

44:24

UM, and you've mentioned some

44:26

some groups already, but if you

44:28

could go over um some ways

44:31

that they're these groups are fighting disinformation

44:33

and misinformation and for folks

44:35

who are interested how they can get involved. Yeah, well,

44:37

Pan America is a great resource. They have

44:40

a great guide as they mentioned before. UM,

44:42

I would be remiss if I do not mention my own organization,

44:44

Ultra Violet. We are a gender justice

44:47

organization that tries to build political and

44:49

social power for women and non binary

44:51

folks, and we actually put out an ad

44:53

calling out Cheryl Sandberg about this information

44:56

on Facebook. So definitely check that out and

44:58

if you want to get involved, you can go to act

45:00

that we are ultra violet dot org and

45:03

check out our campaign calling

45:05

Facebook to be more accountable for their platforms.

45:08

I love it. Yeah,

45:11

I love it. Um, is

45:14

there anything else you want to say

45:16

before we wrap up? Um? And then obviously

45:18

you can shut out where listeners can find you. I

45:21

would just say I know

45:23

things you know earlier today and you called

45:26

our upcoming winter our dark

45:28

winter, and boy do I feel that. Um,

45:30

But I would just say, you know, stuff

45:33

is hard right now, stuff is dark right now. But

45:36

we have each other. We got this, Like I don't I don't

45:38

know. I guess I feel like so much of

45:40

my day is full of doom and gloom and

45:43

preparing for the worst. But you know,

45:46

I think we have each other. We

45:48

have spaces like stuff. I've never

45:50

told you to build community and have conversations,

45:53

and so when times are scarier, hard or cold

45:56

and dark, just come back to that. Just's remember

45:58

that we have community, we have each other. We have We're

46:00

not powerless, We're powerful in each

46:02

other. Oh yeah, I'm

46:04

gonna take that a little bit and I'll put it

46:06

on my phone up.

46:11

Yeah. I love that, because right before we were

46:13

talking, I said, how I found this article that

46:16

said how

46:18

are you as become a triggering question? So

46:21

I like I like this positive note and I

46:23

definitely have have been feeling it

46:26

um, which was nice. It's it's

46:28

almost like something

46:30

was coming back to life at me that I hadn't realized

46:32

had just sort of died off for a little bit. Um.

46:36

So yeah, yeah, that's great. Um.

46:39

And thank you as always for coming

46:41

by Bridget and having these conversations with

46:43

us. We love it. They're so valuable.

46:46

Where can the listeners find you?

46:48

You can find me on Twitter at

46:51

Bridget Marie. Can find me on Instagram

46:53

at Bridget Marie and DC. And if you want

46:55

to have more conversations about how women are showing

46:57

up on the Internet, check out my podcast

46:59

on Heart Radio this very network called

47:01

there Are No Girls on the Internet. Yes,

47:05

definitely do that. I'm still I'm so prepared

47:07

Bridget for the fan fiction episode. There

47:11

you gotta do it. I honestly,

47:13

we got we have to do it. It's happening, it's happening.

47:16

You gotta do this one. She's ready many

47:21

terms. Yestly,

47:23

you should probably just like mute

47:26

and just like, I don't know, do something

47:28

else and kind of pretend you're listening to me and let

47:30

me get it out of my system. I

47:34

wouldn't be offended at all. I

47:36

love it. I love it well.

47:40

I look forward to that and we look forward

47:42

to having you back UM for

47:45

the next next entry in what I'm

47:47

sticking with the winternet, but if listeners have another

47:50

another better name, I will. I'm open.

47:52

I'm open, I like I like winternet.

47:55

I think it's got a nice ring to it. Yeah,

47:58

thank you, thank you. I I constant

48:00

validation on my title name validation

48:07

and good information. But also also

48:09

that also that UM

48:12

the listeners. If you want to reach out, you can email us

48:14

at stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com.

48:17

You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast

48:19

or on Instagram and Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks.

48:21

It's always to our super producer Andrew Howard.

48:24

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48:26

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48:28

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