0:00

I'm Julie Douglas, host of the Stuff

0:02

of Life, a podcast that teases

0:04

a part the tales we tell, because when

0:06

we crack open a story and look

0:08

inside, we see the seeds of

0:10

what make our world so maddening,

0:13

so strange, and so achingly beautiful.

0:15

The Stuff of Life is a podcast about how

0:17

we're all just getting by, learning

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and surviving through the stories that we share.

0:23

We'll look at everything from fear

0:25

and what fuels it, the inconceivability

0:27

of death and our desire to become immortal,

0:30

to the big universal question in

0:32

life, why don't men dance? Join

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me for the first episode on January.

0:38

You can find The Stuff of Life on iTunes

0:40

or any other podcast provider. Welcome

0:52

to Stuff Mom Never Told You from

0:54

how Supports dot com.

1:00

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

1:03

and I'm Caroline. And if you're listening

1:05

to this episode when it comes out,

1:08

this is our very first step

1:10

Mom Never Told You of the New year. That's

1:12

right, woo woo woo woop. So

1:14

we figured that talking about

1:17

fortune telling might be

1:19

appropriate because the season

1:22

for us to anticipate the

1:25

year ahead of us. Yes, and my

1:27

prediction for so many people, including

1:29

myself, is that you'll probably start working

1:31

out again and then about

1:33

two weeks from now stop

1:35

because you'll be tired. My

1:38

prediction, yeah, I predict that my

1:40

yoga classes will be so

1:42

full through Valentine's

1:44

Day then we'll start to taper

1:46

off. Um. But looking

1:49

at the profession

1:51

of psychic, which is kind

1:53

of an umbrella term, was

1:56

really fascinating and also a little

1:58

bit frustrating because as ubiquitous

2:01

as a psychic is and has been throughout

2:03

our history and around the world, it's

2:06

such a marginalized job

2:09

and even pop cultural figure.

2:11

Yeah for sure. I mean we talked

2:13

about in an episode long long ago,

2:16

we talked about mediums and how

2:18

women dominated that arena,

2:20

and it's it's the same today.

2:22

I would argue that more women are

2:24

both psychics and are thought to be psychics.

2:27

Yeah, So what I was really

2:29

interested in for researching this

2:32

episode was why we

2:34

think of women as psychics, Because if

2:36

you look up a stock image,

2:38

for instance, of a psychic or

2:40

a fortune teller, it's going to be an

2:43

older woman wearing a headscoff

2:46

and jewels and with

2:48

her gnarled hands over crystal

2:51

ball. So where did she

2:53

come from? And why are

2:56

so many storefront psychics

2:58

still women today?

3:01

And for millennial listeners, I wonder if

3:04

part of our perception of women as psychics

3:07

has to do with one of

3:10

the most famous psychics of our generation,

3:12

Caroline Miss Cleo, Miss Clio,

3:15

she of the commercials every five

3:18

minutes. When I was growing up, it felt like I

3:20

was very familiar with Miss Cleo.

3:22

Yeah. So, Miss Cleo, for those of you

3:25

who don't know, was the spokesperson

3:27

for the Psychic Readers Network from

3:31

to two thousand two, and her

3:34

catchphrase was call me

3:36

now, so simple, yet

3:38

so deceitful, because she

3:40

would on all these infomercials she

3:43

would take a call and of

3:45

course make some kind of uh

3:48

prediction for these people who often

3:50

just sounded like very lonely, and

3:53

she would then look at the viewers

3:55

and say, call me now for your

3:57

free psychic reading. But of course the

4:00

psychic readings weren't exactly

4:03

so free, nor was she exactly who

4:05

she claimed to be, which was like a

4:07

Jamaican priestess. Yeah no,

4:09

I mean she wasn't even Jamaican. She didn't

4:11

even really have an accent. She just affected

4:14

a Jamaican accent because it in

4:17

some way made her more believable as

4:19

this like psychic voodoo priestess

4:21

lady. Yeah, because it turns

4:24

out that Ms Cleo is

4:26

actually re Paris, who,

4:29

before she got her gig with Psychic

4:31

Reader's Network, was a Seattle

4:33

playwright who created

4:36

a character named Cleo in

4:38

her play for Women Only, which

4:40

apparently she bamboozled all of the

4:43

people involved with this play out of their money

4:45

too, And so then she skipped

4:47

down and next

4:50

lands on our television screens

4:52

as Ms Cleo full time.

4:54

Oh yeah, super celeb of

4:57

the nineties. So apparently

4:59

these Psychic Network phone calls, if

5:01

you wanted to call up and chat with Miss Cleo about

5:03

your love life or whatever your

5:05

concern was, I was supposed to be free.

5:07

She's like, call me and we'll chat for free because

5:10

I'm I'm amazing and giving and

5:12

I'm an amazing psychic priestess

5:14

lady. Uh. And that's just not true

5:16

really, because for the first five minutes they would just keep

5:18

you on the phone getting personal information, and

5:21

so the average call actually could

5:24

run you about sixty books. Yeah.

5:27

Um. And because of

5:29

this, I think it was actually True

5:31

TV Network that

5:33

first looked into the Psychic

5:35

Reader Network and found that they

5:38

were making money hand over fist and raked

5:40

in like a billion dollars um

5:42

during this time period. And so

5:45

of course there are all sorts of lawsuits um

5:47

against Psychic Reader's network, and

5:50

I think Miss Cleo herself for

5:52

falsely representing this service

5:55

and not emphasizing enough

5:57

that it was for entertainment purposes only.

5:59

Yes, scarded any major trouble though. I

6:01

mean, she was put out of a job, but she

6:04

never went to jail or anything like that. She just

6:06

went off to I think Florida

6:09

because that makes sense. I think it's Florida,

6:11

but even if it's not, it's probably Florida.

6:14

Uh. And it's just you know, walking around

6:16

best Buy with people approaching

6:18

her asking, you know, should I call you

6:21

now? And I'm sure she's

6:23

still she still effects a Jamaican accent.

6:25

There was was that the Vice interview where where they're

6:27

like, are you using a voice right now? And she's

6:29

like, oh no, you know, now that I'm older

6:32

and my my mouth is just looser,

6:34

I just talk like this and it's like you're

6:37

so you're so full of it, Miss

6:39

Cleo. Yeah. She insists that

6:41

it is part of her heritage

6:44

and she stands by her

6:46

claims as being taught

6:48

voodoo specifically, which she told

6:51

Vice was a little too taboo

6:54

for Psychic Reader's Network, so they made her out

6:56

to be more of a psychic because that was a little

6:58

of a friendlier term. Um,

7:01

and that she still does psychic readings

7:03

today, that that's still kind of her bread

7:05

and butter. But because of

7:07

all of the visibility

7:09

of Miss Cleo and also sort of the lampooning

7:12

of her as well as the legal

7:14

troubles involved with Psychic Readers Network,

7:16

I think that's a big reason why

7:20

we, you know, look at psychics today

7:22

with an especially skeptical I well,

7:25

sure, I mean it's crazy to me reading those

7:27

figures about how much money the Psychic Reader's Network

7:29

and Miss Cleo brought in. But

7:31

it the more you read, the more

7:33

it makes so much sense because source after

7:36

source when you're looking at whether

7:38

it's psychic abilities or things

7:40

like astrology, numerology, Caro, which

7:42

will be our next episode. Um. So

7:46

many people who reach out to these so called

7:48

professionals are looking for love, advice.

7:50

These people are lonely, these people are desperate,

7:52

and they oftentimes find themselves filling

7:55

this role of counselor

7:58

of what Karen Gregory over at New

8:00

Inquiry called part of the support

8:02

staff. She was looking or talking specifically

8:05

about psychics in New York City,

8:07

and she said, considering the long and rich history

8:10

of the psychic reader in the city, we can say

8:12

that she's always been a member of the city's support

8:14

staff, offering reassurance and comfort

8:16

to urban dwellers. But in today's market,

8:19

the psychic has also become the

8:21

very model of entrepreneurial

8:24

effective labor. So

8:26

you've got lots of issues. You've got the gendering

8:28

of psychics. People think of psychics as women.

8:30

You've got an emotional labor aspects

8:33

for people who are trying to get jobs

8:35

and earn money, as psychics and

8:37

psychic related positions

8:40

are oftentimes having to rely on

8:42

that old pesky emotional labor

8:44

that we talked about a lot on the podcast, in terms

8:47

of being very empathetic

8:49

and putting on this act and listening to people's

8:51

problems and trying to convince them of things,

8:54

whether it's stuff in their love life or their professional

8:56

life. And the thing is not

8:59

all psychic x are Miss Cleo's

9:01

feigning these characters just to do

9:04

people out of some money. There are

9:06

a lot of people out there who take

9:08

their psychic work very seriously

9:11

and are very sincere about it. There's even a

9:13

psychic school in London

9:16

where you can go and hone your

9:18

abilities. But really, in reading

9:21

a Wall Street Journal article about the school,

9:23

it's as much about honing your emotional

9:25

intelligence and rapport with people

9:27

as it is what we might think of as

9:30

psychic. But speaking of what we think of

9:32

as psychic, I think it's worth clarifying

9:35

what psychics do because they aren't necessarily

9:37

telling the future. It's not just the whole looking

9:40

into a crystal ball thing. Because

9:42

generally speaking, psychics

9:44

use supernatural or

9:46

mystical talents to gain insight

9:49

maybe on the future, but also on the past

9:52

or the present. And they're distinct from

9:54

mediums like Long Island

9:56

medium with that that

9:58

platinum blonde hair, who channel

10:00

Spirits and the Dead and also have successful

10:03

reality TV show Empires. There are air

10:05

quotes around channel right. Yeah,

10:08

I mean, I don't know Teresa fairly,

10:10

Teresa can do some incredible work on Long Island.

10:13

I don't know, just I could

10:15

not. I could not be more skeptical. Skepticals

10:17

way too weak of a word. So how

10:20

do these people supposedly communicate

10:23

and and connect with the past

10:26

and with the future. Well, there's lots

10:28

of techniques. People. You've got palm reading

10:31

tarot, dream interpretation,

10:34

or reading numerology, tea

10:36

leaves. People can even read your coffee

10:38

grounds in Turkish coffee

10:40

cups. Yeah. I love

10:43

finding out all of the various

10:45

ways that we have attempted

10:48

to divine these these supernatural

10:51

elements because this is also coming

10:53

from around the world. And basically

10:55

the takeaway is humans are

10:58

really obsessed with figuring

11:00

out whatever way they can to explain the world

11:02

around them, through things like interpreting

11:04

hysterical laughter. That would be Yellowman

11:07

since my favorite, I think because I have been

11:09

accused of having sort of a disruptive laugh

11:12

from time to time. Often actually,

11:14

especially when you're at a psychic people

11:17

in movie theaters have turned around and looked at me. So

11:20

well, I think one near and dear to

11:22

my heart, since I do love crazy

11:25

cat ladies would be full of tomancy,

11:27

which is predicting the future via

11:29

cat. Apparently, when a cat sneezes,

11:32

something's supposed to happen. That's supposed to

11:34

mean something like maybe your house is

11:36

dusty to say, I think it means you

11:38

need to swiffer. Um.

11:41

And then there's also scrying,

11:43

which I learned is the technical term

11:46

well peering into a reflective

11:48

object like a crystal ball.

11:50

But it's not just about

11:52

the mechanics of say, you know,

11:55

if this was like way back when and

11:57

you were looking at the blood drippings

11:59

from some animal intestines that

12:01

you had just removed. Um. It's also,

12:04

especially today, about building

12:06

repport with a client and asking

12:09

questions yes, to find

12:12

out more information and also see

12:14

what resonates emotionally.

12:17

And zan Ap K Corkman is

12:19

a sociologist who spent a lot of time

12:22

with coffee

12:24

ground Turkish

12:27

psychics. So they're the ones you're reading, you know, the grounds

12:29

in Turkish tea and um.

12:31

She the way she puts it is that psychic

12:34

readings are really about experiencing

12:36

and expressing emotions.

12:40

But if you're serious about becoming

12:42

a psychic reader, a side

12:46

hustle, Caroline, trust me, I'm

12:48

on it, Lady Boss's natum um.

12:51

Karen Gregory, who spent

12:53

a lot of time with psychics in New York,

12:56

noted in her piece in

12:58

The New Inquiry that if you are serious

13:00

about becoming a psychic reader, that you

13:02

would not ethically stand for cold

13:05

readings, and that's their in term

13:07

for essentially baiting someone

13:09

for information and

13:12

duping them. Well, here's the

13:14

thing side questions. So, I

13:16

mean, I I'm gonna really

13:19

shock a lot of people here when I say that I don't believe

13:21

in psychic abilities or that psychic abilities

13:23

exist at all. But I predicted you were going to

13:26

say that, Oh

13:28

my god, Well, you and I are connected anyway, so

13:30

it's fine, as evidenced by the fact that you and

13:32

I are both wearing our magical fortune teller robes

13:34

today. Yeah, we didn't. We didn't

13:36

plan that at all. But I'm

13:38

I'm so I'm reading all this stuff with you, Kristen,

13:41

and we're researching all the stuff about psychics and

13:43

how it's it has way more

13:45

to do with empathy

13:48

and being able to really read the person

13:50

across the table from you and

13:52

and sort of make your questions

13:54

as statements to try to get a reaction, engage

13:57

how people react. Why wouldn't you just be a

13:59

therapist at that point? Like

14:01

that's my question, Like, if you, if you are so

14:03

good at reading people and counseling

14:06

them, why would you not just like, is

14:08

it is it too much time to go

14:10

to school to become like a licensed

14:12

marriage and family counselor or something. Well,

14:15

I think that the big distinction between a

14:17

therapist or even a life coach and

14:20

a psychic would be that the

14:22

psychic is going to give you more direct advice

14:24

of what you should do based on something

14:27

that they're reading. There's still it

14:29

takes it a few steps farther, obviously,

14:32

because there is that mystical

14:35

connection that people are drawn to. I

14:37

mean, it's the same reason in a lot of ways people

14:39

are drawn to organized religion. Oh

14:41

sure, sure, sure, yeah, And that is I think

14:43

part of human nature, which we'll talk I mean more

14:45

about in this episode and the next about people

14:48

humans. If this is just natural to be drawn

14:51

to something

14:53

or a person or a system or a religion

14:55

or whatever that helps you make sense

14:58

of the universe around you. Yeah,

15:00

and going to a psychic, consulting a

15:02

psychic, getting your palm red or your aura red

15:04

is not a fringe activity.

15:06

I was actually listening to Call

15:09

your girlfriend a couple of weeks

15:11

ago, for instance, and they were talking

15:13

to Tobby Givinson who was saying how much she

15:15

loves getting her aura red. I have a feeling

15:17

that, I mean, I don't want to put words in Tobby's

15:19

mouth, but it seems like it's more of a lark than

15:22

something that she really like bases her life around.

15:25

Um. But that jumped out to be especially as

15:27

I was reading about the whole

15:29

psychic industry. My boss at

15:31

my last job was adorable and crazy

15:33

and hey Carol, and

15:36

she loved to fluff

15:39

people's auras, which I always would

15:41

tease her. I was like, this is a euphemism, isn't

15:43

it. But she made me lie down

15:45

on the floor at work. Gross carpet

15:47

you. But she had me light down on the floor

15:50

and she like put her hands just

15:52

like millimeters above

15:54

me and like moved them

15:56

around in certain ways. And she said she's fluffing

15:58

my aura and don't I feel bad there? And I was like, well,

16:00

I mean, I guess I got to lie down and close my eyes.

16:03

But she used

16:05

tricked you into taking a nap. I know, best

16:07

ballsver. But

16:09

the thing is, this is not a fringe group

16:11

of people. According to the

16:14

two thousand nine Pew Center on Religion

16:16

and Public Life Survey, fifteen

16:19

percent of Americans have consulted

16:22

a fortune teller or psychic. And

16:25

especially as we see among our

16:27

millennial generation US going

16:29

to church less and we used to, you see a

16:32

rise in US getting into

16:34

more of these occult practices.

16:37

And that number is probably higher than it

16:40

was back in two thousand nine because

16:43

the psychic industry has benefited from

16:45

post recession discretionary

16:47

spoonding. In two thousand fourteen,

16:50

for instance, the industry brought in

16:52

a billion dollars. Well, I mean it's

16:55

not just post recession spending. There's lots

16:57

of trend articles out there from a couple of years

16:59

ago talking about how people

17:02

during the recession. Uh,

17:04

during the thick of it, I should say, we're

17:07

consulting a lot of like quote unquote

17:09

financial psychics trying to get help

17:11

on what do I do with my investments?

17:14

How am I going to lose money? Earn money?

17:16

What am I gonna do? Help me? Yeah? Should I go back

17:18

to grad school? What should I do? Um?

17:21

And in along

17:23

with though the success of the industry has had

17:25

in recent years, there's also been

17:27

more tightening of regulations around

17:30

it because of incidents like the whole

17:32

Psychic Readers Network

17:35

fraud, and there

17:37

have been so many high profile

17:39

cases of people being tricked out of

17:41

hundreds of thousands of dollars. There

17:43

was a guy, I think in New York who

17:47

spent almost a million

17:50

dollars so that a love

17:52

curse could be broken so he could get

17:54

back together with this woman. Wasn't she dead?

17:56

And the woman was dead? Yes, And

17:58

that's the thing. There comes a point when it's like people are

18:01

crazy. Yeah, I was reading there was an

18:03

x I Jane column from this girl who

18:05

had as a teenager worked

18:08

as an online uh

18:10

tarot card reader. Not to like give her a whole

18:12

next episode away, but she was

18:14

writing about how this guy every night

18:17

would get on chat, the tarot

18:19

chat and like bug the crap out

18:21

of her about how he was in love with this woman

18:24

and she she told me to stay

18:26

away from her and that she never wanted to see

18:28

me. But what does that really mean? How do I get with her? Every

18:31

night he would get on this girl's tarot chat and

18:33

ask her how to do that, and she's like, I had to

18:35

stop because that

18:38

guy was not exactly one

18:40

in a million. I mean, there are a lot of people out there who are

18:42

completely delusional and who

18:44

are willing to use psychics

18:47

tarot astrology, what have

18:49

you to justify like crazy

18:52

motivations in their lives. Well,

18:54

and that goes to the main reason

18:56

people see psychics, which is usually for

18:59

relationship a related advice. It's for those

19:01

unanswerable questions, you know. It's

19:04

also why in the past, when

19:06

I've gone through breakups, I read

19:08

my horoscope all the time. But yeah,

19:10

okay, let me back up here and

19:12

and be totally hypocritical. Well,

19:15

I guess not totally. I'm a trunk

19:17

hypocritical because I love reading my horoscope.

19:20

I mean, I don't believe it, and I don't think that it

19:22

necessarily means anything or is true, but

19:24

I still love looking at

19:26

it. Yeah, I have found

19:29

comfort in my horoscopes

19:31

before for whatever

19:33

reason, knowing that, yes, it probably

19:36

does not actually mean anything, but I think just

19:38

seeing words in print along

19:40

the lines of something better

19:42

will happen like okay, okay,

19:45

good, well, let's get out of bed now.

19:47

Yeah, I really like actually free will

19:50

astrology by Rob Bresney. I actually

19:52

emailed to me every week just

19:55

because they're so quirky, like, even

19:57

if it wouldn't even necessarily have to

20:00

he could call it something other than horoscopes

20:02

and it would still be really quirky and entertaining.

20:04

And we have research in fact to

20:07

confirm our hunch that the

20:09

appeal of horoscopes,

20:13

psychics, et cetera has

20:15

to do with us making

20:17

sense of the world. There was a study

20:20

from the University of Queensland which

20:23

found an unsurprising correlation

20:25

between people's belief in psychics

20:28

and their sense of control over their lives,

20:31

meaning the psychics helped them feel

20:33

more in control in a way.

20:35

I mean, it's sort of uh, duping

20:38

yourself into believing

20:40

that you have some answers

20:43

or some explanations as to why

20:45

things are or to what you should do. And again

20:47

I have a feeling that you would find similar results

20:50

for people with really strong, more

20:52

traditional religious beliefs

20:55

as well. Yeah, and going back to that Dr

20:57

Corkman that Kristen mentioned earlier,

21:00

she found that women, young people,

21:02

and lgbt Q identified clients

21:05

are the most common people who

21:07

seek out psychics, and

21:10

the way that Karen Gregory puts it in that New

21:12

Inquiry article makes perfect sense

21:14

as to why marginalized

21:16

groups are more likely to see a psychic. She

21:19

wrote against a backdrop of limited

21:21

opportunity and the increased

21:23

perception that the future is precarious and

21:25

risky. These practitioners

21:27

offer the simple reassurance that

21:29

a life has meaning, perhaps even a

21:31

destiny, and that you, as

21:33

an autonomous self, are a

21:36

source of agency and potential.

21:38

And that's amazing. That's that's true, and I completely

21:41

understand it the same way that some people might find

21:43

that by being a dedicated member

21:45

of a church or a temple, or

21:47

some other people might volunteer

21:50

to feel like they're a part of something bigger or or

21:52

what have you. It falls under that same

21:55

category of feeling like I'm not alone

21:57

and I have purpose. Well, and what a loft

22:00

job description to what do you do well?

22:02

I'm a psychic, which means I give people

22:04

a sense of autonomy and agency

22:07

and destiny and that they have a purpose in this world.

22:09

It's like, oh, that's an interesting way

22:12

of putting it. Um. But the big

22:14

question that we need to answer is

22:17

why are most people claiming

22:19

this job title, ladies?

22:22

What is it about psychics? So

22:25

we're going to talk about that when we come right

22:27

back from a quick break. So

22:38

here's the thing, Caroline, when it comes

22:40

to the question of why we think

22:42

of psychics as women, why most psychics

22:44

are women. There isn't really

22:46

a tidy answer to it, because,

22:49

I mean, for one thing, there

22:52

isn't a whole lot of data

22:54

on the psychic industry because

22:56

it has been so marginalized and

22:58

it's considered this sort of entertainment

23:01

thing. There isn't a lot of scholarly

23:04

insight on its history

23:07

and its current operations

23:11

um. And also considering how

23:14

big it is

23:16

historically. I mean, if if you look into practically

23:19

any culture at any point in

23:21

the world, you have some kind of fortune

23:23

teller psychic thing going

23:26

on. Yeah, you've got Greek mythology,

23:28

which focuses on lots

23:30

of sort of psychic leaning ladies

23:33

and oracles. You have the figure

23:35

of Cassandra and Greek mythology,

23:37

who could be considered one of

23:39

the original lady psychics. I mean, she's

23:41

more of a prophet. But according

23:44

to the drama Agamemnon,

23:47

Apollo gave her the gift of prophecy

23:49

in exchange for hooking up with her. That's

23:51

great, yeah, but Cassandra was like, no, no,

23:54

no, Apollo, I'm going to take the prophecy

23:56

um and you can service

23:59

yourself. Oh what,

24:01

apologisn't like that? No? He

24:03

he cursed her with the whole thing that nobody would ever

24:05

actually believe her predictions. That's got to be

24:07

frustrating. Well, and that also sounds a

24:09

little bit like how we perceive psychics today,

24:12

where it's like he cursed all women. Oh

24:14

interesting, you know what I mean, because

24:16

we probably attribute it to like, oh, well, of course

24:18

women are psychics. I think there's like it because they're

24:20

all you know, it's just there their men see,

24:23

yeah, they're empathy. Their men

24:25

sees empathy. But in

24:28

the Britannica article on divination

24:31

it noted that it

24:33

happens in practically every

24:36

culture around the world. I mean, it's

24:38

it's just this human impulse. It seems like,

24:40

yeah, what book were we looking at?

24:42

That was talking about mediums

24:45

and psychics in the media. So

24:48

that was a book by Karen Bheeler

24:50

called Sears, Witches and

24:53

Psychics on Screen and Analysis

24:55

of Women Visionary Characters in recent

24:57

television and film. Well, in the intra

25:00

she goes into a discussion of perhaps,

25:04

you know, all the way from Greek mythology to a

25:06

modern TV show, we

25:08

think of psychics as

25:11

being women and vice versa, because

25:13

it's not as action packed

25:15

or role as the traditional hero

25:17

who is traditionally male or

25:20

masculine um. And

25:22

so that's one possible explanation for

25:24

the origins of our association that you

25:26

know, women, we've got all the stereotypical

25:29

like separate spheres. Women are

25:31

tending and befriending at home or

25:33

at the temple, so they're more

25:35

likely to stereotypically and traditionally

25:37

and mythologically, uh, be inside

25:40

fortune tellen as opposed to being outside,

25:43

you know, slaying the beasts

25:45

or whatever. Well, and when you think about

25:47

it, it's a very passive role. Psychics

25:50

are often these empty vessels

25:52

that allow other forces to communicate

25:55

through them. So we're much more comfortable

25:58

with a woman traditionally in that kind a

26:00

passive role. I mean, even if we take it more

26:02

literally, women is empty vessels hello,

26:05

having babies flooding uterus is I

26:08

was thinking of your uterus in place and

26:10

and filled with a baby. Oh, I

26:12

went then comes out. I was just thinking you're uterus

26:15

as being like so empty except for

26:17

good ideas.

26:18

I think

26:21

our yes, we would have been so much different

26:24

if people have thought are empty wounds were

26:26

just full of good ideas. But

26:29

we're cursed by Apollo for no one to

26:31

believe us, no one to believe our Uteruses.

26:34

We are all, Cassandra. That's why we're

26:36

having the planned parent in debate. It's because nobody

26:38

believes our Uterus. It's because Apollo.

26:42

And it's notable too that the

26:45

occult, generally speaking,

26:47

is one of like the only

26:49

non patriarchal realms

26:53

of spirituality there is, so

26:55

there's been room for women, um

26:57

to not only play parts, but also have leader

27:00

ship in these aspects. I mean, I highly

27:02

highly highly recommend listeners

27:04

if you are into this topic, go

27:06

back and listen to our podcast a while back

27:10

asking the question were mediums the first

27:12

feminists because UM,

27:14

in the United States in the

27:17

mid nineteenth century, these

27:19

women named the Fox Sisters essentially

27:22

created this religion called spiritualism,

27:25

which involved all sorts of mediumship

27:28

and psychic reading and tarot reading,

27:30

and women who

27:33

also became suffragists

27:35

were so into it because it gave them a platform

27:37

for the very first time. Yeah,

27:39

I gave them a platform. And it was also sort

27:42

of the same way that Protestant

27:44

religions split off from Catholic

27:47

the Catholic religion and gave people a direct

27:49

connection to the Bible and to God. I

27:52

mean, mediumship is not that different,

27:54

it's it's quite parallel, and that it's

27:57

giving people, in this case

27:59

a lot of women, a direct connection to another

28:01

worldly realm and people

28:04

who some people who were stereotypically

28:06

very connected to the other worldly realm

28:08

were the Roma. And that's where we

28:10

get this image of the

28:13

the carnival gypsy with

28:15

all of her jewels and big earrings and crystal

28:18

ball. Yeah. In brook Bunts

28:20

is History of the Crystal Ball at Broadly,

28:22

which I highly recommend you read. She

28:25

notes that traveling Roma in America

28:27

were the go to carnival and standalone

28:30

fortune tellers by the nineteen thirties.

28:32

Now, of course, this is where we get a little

28:34

bit of racism, I think, in

28:37

our perception of fortune

28:39

tellers as frauds, because,

28:42

um, the Roma people are usually

28:46

hated for being fraudulent

28:50

and being thieves and pickpockets

28:52

and things like that. So we have this, uh,

28:54

this other ring of this

28:57

group, I mean, and it's not just in the United States,

28:59

it's issues um wherever they've

29:01

been. Um. But that's where that

29:04

stereotypical image comes

29:06

from. And one thing that I

29:08

also didn't find a good source on, but I'm curious

29:11

to know if listeners have any more insight on

29:13

this is a little more deeply how

29:16

race plays into our

29:19

perceptions of women as psychics. Because

29:21

going back for a second to Miss Cleo

29:24

and her being so believable

29:26

because she affected

29:29

this Jamaican lilt and talked about

29:31

voodoo, and I don't

29:33

know, I just wonder if I

29:36

just wonder kind of what's up with that, Like why,

29:39

um, this image

29:41

is more why we were so quick

29:43

to buy it? Well, I wonder

29:46

if it has anything to do with just

29:49

traditionally having viewed women

29:52

from other cultures

29:55

or countries as just

29:57

the other anyway, um,

30:00

and why we would be so quick to believe

30:03

like someone with a different accent who puts on

30:05

a turban and big earrings. Yeah, the whole

30:07

exoticizing factor. That makes total

30:09

sense. Um. Although

30:12

if we look at the

30:14

most prominent uh

30:17

characters on TV who

30:19

are playing these kinds of mainstream

30:21

psychics that Karen

30:23

Deeler highlights in her books Sears, which

30:26

is and Psychics, most of them are white ladies.

30:28

Yeah, you've got what is it, Patricia Arquette,

30:31

You've got Jennifer love Hewitt, which,

30:35

come on, you couldn't have cast someone

30:38

else better. I've never seen

30:40

the show. I probably shouldn't talk. Go

30:42

ahead and send of your letters. I've never seen it. I'm

30:44

sorry. Jennifer love Hewitt, if you're listening,

30:47

you've got great hair. She's got

30:49

great hair. She's just that beautiful hair.

30:52

I mean, hey, I enjoyed Party of Five. There

30:56

was a show though, and I don't I don't have the actress's

30:58

name in front of me, but wonderful rolls. It

31:01

was a brief show, but delight

31:04

um that she wasn't necessarily

31:07

psychic, but objects would talk

31:09

to her, and she was. Objects

31:12

would talk to her. Yeah, like little little

31:14

things like the stapler kinda yeah,

31:16

the stapler might be like you should go invest

31:18

a great that hang

31:21

over there. I'm impressed that a stapler

31:23

would know about other things instead

31:25

of just stapling. Oh, I've learned so

31:27

much from staplers over the u S, Caroline, I've

31:30

been limiting. If I've been limiting,

31:32

uh, staplers quite possibly

31:34

standing in the way of their progress. That's

31:37

right. Don't even get me started on duct tape. Um.

31:41

But one thing that that beeler does know,

31:43

she she kind of glosses over the

31:46

how sort of homogeneous all these

31:48

characters are. And and how

31:50

curious that is that these lead roles, that these

31:53

protagonists are suddenly white,

31:55

even though if we think of the more stock

31:57

characters, it usually is like

31:59

women of color. Well,

32:02

I mean, that's that's another thing, having

32:05

stock characters and background

32:07

characters and suspicious characters being

32:09

women of color. But then having like the

32:12

lead in your one hour Saturday

32:14

night drama TV show being a

32:16

white woman. Then Yeah,

32:18

layers, layers, so many layers. Well,

32:21

and she notes too what we mentioned

32:23

earlier about how uh and

32:25

this also echoes our episode on Hollywood

32:27

Witches. How of

32:29

course we would enjoy seeing

32:31

a woman with supernatural psychic

32:33

abilities, because you

32:36

know, dudes can have the physical

32:38

strength and the logic, but ladies,

32:41

you know, just just using their

32:44

feelings to fix pain. I

32:47

wish my feelings fixed things. Well,

32:50

I mean, is that why we get like the

32:52

douchy Chris Angel And

32:55

what's the other one who's got to go tee?

32:57

The illusionist? Yeah, like all of the your

33:00

magician illusionist people tend to

33:02

be guys. That's what

33:04

I was wondering as well, because

33:06

you have Yeah, and in this if

33:08

we broaden our scope

33:11

even more to this entertainment industry.

33:14

Magicians are men performing in

33:16

front of audiences. Psychics

33:19

tend to be women one on

33:21

one tapping into the emotions,

33:23

whereas men are usually pulling things out of happen

33:26

and escaping from tanks

33:28

of water, pulling who knows what at

33:30

of who knows where, goodness being

33:33

cut in half. But

33:36

there's also that emotional labor

33:38

aspect of it, or the affective labor,

33:41

as we talked about at the top of the podcast, and

33:43

this was something that Dr Corkman

33:45

highlighted as well, and she was kind

33:47

of blown over by the work

33:49

that it does take to be a fortune

33:51

teller. She was like, going into this, it's like,

33:53

Oh, you're just gonna like read some coffee ground, no big

33:56

deal. But a lot of them reported being so

33:58

exhausted at the end of the day. Yeah,

34:00

you've got to sit there and try to pull

34:03

really emotional sensitive

34:06

information out of people, some of who might

34:08

be crying, some of who might

34:10

be skeptical and not not really going

34:12

along with it. But if you've got to be attuned

34:14

to every like eye twitch or

34:17

glance or movement to try to pick up

34:19

on someone's emotions, Yeah, it does sound exhausting,

34:21

and it's usually

34:24

I mean, it's not reciprocated. That's another

34:26

thing with this, you know, the the energy

34:28

being expended, it's not like they're going to get

34:30

anything from return from these

34:33

clients. Um and Corkman notes

34:36

that divination work is

34:38

marginalized as a result of

34:41

it's feminization. So

34:43

it seems like being a psychic unless

34:45

you're like a celebrity psychic like

34:47

Sylvia Brown who made like a bazillion

34:50

dollars when she was alive, is

34:53

often just a thankless job. But

34:56

is divination truly

34:58

dismissed? And I mean, I recognize that

35:00

this is what Kirkman studies point to,

35:03

but is it truly dismissed because it's

35:05

feminized or is it dismissed

35:07

because we have hundreds of years of history

35:10

of people being like kind of jerked

35:12

around by psychics and mediums

35:15

and members of the occult. But

35:19

I want to pull magicians

35:21

back out of out of my top hat because

35:25

think about that. We know, I mean, like they now refer

35:27

to themselves as illusionists in the same way

35:29

that psychics legally

35:32

and most municipalities have to emphasize

35:34

that their services are for entertainment only, and

35:38

we know that magic isn't real, but

35:40

we don't. I don't think that we give

35:43

them the side eye quite as much as psychics.

35:46

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I really only

35:48

roll my eyes at people like Chriss angel just

35:51

because he's Chris angel Um,

35:53

not so much because someone's a magician or

35:55

an illusionist or whatever, Whereas

35:58

kind of across the board I tend to roll as a psychics.

36:01

Well, and I guess I just realized as I was

36:03

making that argument that of course we

36:06

are not as side eyed toward

36:08

magicians because we're actually seeing their tricks

36:11

happening. We see the things up here,

36:13

We see the lady being sawn into

36:16

song. So sod

36:19

also the magic of me learning basic words.

36:22

I love witnessing it.

36:25

It's a beautiful thing. But you obviously

36:27

can't see a

36:30

psychic's promise happening

36:32

right there in front of you. Well, maybe that's

36:34

why you have a lot of psychics who

36:36

do use quote unquote tools of the trade

36:38

like crystal balls, like crystals

36:41

um, like, you know, just basic

36:43

accessories that they have in

36:45

their their psychic rooms

36:48

to try to lend an air

36:51

of authenticity. Perhaps,

36:53

Yeah, I mean, the thing about it is scientifically

36:58

psychic powers don't exist. I mean, the whole

37:00

question of like, well, maybe women

37:02

are more often psychics because

37:04

they're more psychic than men, and the answers,

37:07

no, women aren't more psychic than men because

37:09

these powers don't exist. I mean,

37:11

there was a University

37:14

of London study, for instance, that essentially

37:17

debunked psychic ability, although it was a

37:19

rather small sample size. They had

37:21

like two psychics sit down and had

37:24

people write things on cards.

37:26

I'm just imagining the opening scene of Ghostbusters

37:31

or Dr Bankman has the pretty girl in the basement

37:34

any who. Actually it

37:36

was exactly that and had a marshmallow

37:38

man come out. Um.

37:40

But essentially what happened was

37:42

the psychics were not able to

37:45

guess what these people had written in any

37:47

statistically significant kind of way. I think

37:49

they failed across the board.

37:52

But it also goes to show how, in

37:54

a lot of ways psychics today can be

37:56

compared to life

37:59

coaches sort of a little more more mystical.

38:02

Yeah, just like somebody who's on Oprah.

38:04

Stuff written for a magazine, which

38:06

I've said time and time again is one of my favorite

38:08

things to read in the world. I mean a lot of those

38:11

people are life coachy. Well, and I'm

38:13

sure that there are listeners who

38:16

have consulted psychics who are indicating

38:18

their areas read. I am sure that there are some who

38:20

do crystals, because I feel like crystals

38:22

are super popular right

38:24

now. Um, one of my best friend's moms

38:26

is all about some healing crystals. Yeah.

38:29

I used to work at another old job. Uh

38:32

there was this very amazingly

38:35

intelligent, sweet nurse

38:38

who she was like a very strong

38:40

Christian woman, but she also was big into

38:43

crystal healing, which I thought was very interesting

38:45

considering she was both a Christian and an

38:47

actual medical nurse. But

38:50

yeah, she she gave me a crystal to

38:52

help ward off evil spirits

38:54

and it did not keep that boss away

38:57

from me. So I don't I can't believe. I can't buy

38:59

into an Unfortunately, Well, I wonder

39:01

what listeners have to say about all

39:03

of this, or are there any listeners

39:06

who are psychics who do this kind

39:08

of work. We want to hear

39:10

from you, and also were curious as to why you

39:13

think that most psychics

39:15

are women. Mom Stuff at how stuff works

39:17

dot com is our email address. You can also tweet

39:20

us at mom stuff podcast or messages

39:22

on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

39:25

to share with you, and we come right back from

39:27

a quick break. One great

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and now back to the show. All

40:41

right, Well, I have a letter here from Carly in

40:43

response to our adult acne episode,

40:45

she says, um, I've

40:47

been a longtime listener to the show and especially enjoy

40:49

the topics on female health. When the episode

40:52

on adult acne popped up, I

40:56

listened immediately because it's been a major subject

40:58

of frustration for me over the past seven months.

41:00

In the episode, you mentioned hormonal i u

41:02

d s can sometimes cause acne. You

41:05

also noted that copper i u d s are non

41:07

hormonal and thus will not factor into the

41:09

hormonal acne equation. However, as

41:12

I and many other women on internet message

41:14

board land will tell you, these copper

41:16

i u d s are thought to cause acne too.

41:19

I got my copper iu D in just shy of a year

41:21

ago. I was so happy to be free of daily

41:23

hormones and to have a potentially ten

41:25

year long solution of birth control with no

41:28

fuss. Skipped to six months later,

41:30

and my face is breaking out and painful cystic

41:32

acne constantly and all over

41:34

my face. Even before I was on

41:36

the pill, I had never experienced anything to

41:38

this degree. It was so bad I never wanted

41:40

to leave the house, instead scouring the internet

41:42

for potential causes and solutions. At

41:45

first, I thought it was due to a hormonal imbalance

41:47

from getting off the pill, but then I found

41:49

a slew of message for conversations connecting

41:52

the copper I u D two cystic acne,

41:54

among other symptoms I won't get into here.

41:57

Post after post women recounted

41:59

experiencing exactly the same course

42:01

of events like me. Many women

42:03

had never had acne before and developed

42:05

it after having the iu D in for several months.

42:08

Subsequently, many women also wrote about

42:10

how getting the io D out immediately reduced

42:12

their inflammation and then eventually solve

42:14

the problem altogether. The theory

42:16

goes that the copper and the iu D builds

42:18

up in your body too much higher than normal

42:20

levels and then inhibits zinc absorption

42:23

because zinc is correlated with skin health. Without

42:25

adequate zinc, the skin goes haywire.

42:27

From what I can tell, this copper toxicity

42:29

theory is majorly anecdotal. I

42:32

couldn't find one scientific study to verify

42:34

the connection with the io D to copper toxicity.

42:37

This might explain why myself and other women

42:39

were not told that this could be a possible symptom

42:41

before getting the iu D, and why women are

42:43

constantly told there is no way

42:46

the copper iu D is the cause of their acne because

42:48

it doesn't affect hormones. After

42:50

doing this research, I started taking a good zinc

42:52

supplement and my symptoms have really improved.

42:54

I'm also getting the iu D out this week, so

42:57

time will tell if the iu D is really

42:59

the cause of my think I'm curious about

43:01

this potential gap in research on this product,

43:03

perhaps another case of women's issues getting

43:05

the short end of the research sick. I just

43:08

wanted to share this in case there's any other frustrated

43:10

and confused copper I u D users

43:12

out there, So thanks Carly Well.

43:14

I've got a letter here from Rachel, also about

43:16

our adult acne episode.

43:19

She writes, I've been struggling with acne for

43:21

the past twenty years and think

43:23

that you treated a fabulous job of highlighting

43:25

all the physical, emotional, and psychological

43:27

tools that acne can take on a woman. From

43:30

my mother who is approaching sixty and

43:32

still gets sabacious. This physically

43:35

holding me down on our bathroom floor trying to

43:37

pop one of my first pimples, the odd

43:39

intimacy of popping back me with my

43:42

husband. I'm pointing at you, gonger Seeva

43:44

has brought me both joy and pain, and mostly

43:47

pain in all forms. In the realm

43:49

of remedies, I tried it all

43:51

and only recently discovered Sperana

43:54

lacktne. It was recently recommended

43:56

to me by a friend about a year and a half ago, and

43:58

it's actually changed my life. After

44:00

about ninety days on a very low dose, my

44:02

skin was gorgeous. Since starting

44:04

the medication, I've had a few

44:07

breakouts, but they have not been anywhere near

44:09

as horrible as the pimples of yesteryear, and

44:11

it made me realize how quickly I've become accustomed

44:13

to a clear face and forgot the horrors

44:16

of cystic acne. But I've

44:19

recently decided to let nature take its course

44:21

with my reproduction, so I can no

44:23

longer take it. My skin hasn't

44:26

blown up yet, but I'm sure that's right around the

44:28

corner. Keep up the great work on the podcast

44:30

and keep on preaching the magic of

44:32

spur on a lactown So

44:35

thanks, Rachel, and I can also attest that it

44:37

is a fabulous drug.

44:41

So listeners, we want to hear

44:43

from you now. Mom Stuff at house stuffworks

44:45

dot Com is our email address and for links

44:47

to all of our social media as well as all

44:49

of our blogs, videos, and podcasts,

44:52

including this one with our sources

44:54

so you can learn more about like gigs

44:57

head on over to stuff Mom Never Told

44:59

You dot com for more on its

45:01

in athens of other topics using how stuff

45:04

works dot com