0:05

Hi, this is Annie and this is Bridget, and you're listening

0:07

to stuff. Mom never told you. This

0:20

is another update, another video

0:22

game update for you, and this one is about

0:25

UM characters and games

0:27

and UM women playing video

0:30

games, and it is another supplement to

0:33

our recent episode that we did on women

0:35

in online Gaming UM. And

0:38

kind of a couple of updates from

0:40

me is that E three has

0:42

was happening recently when we were recording this And

0:45

what is E three? Annie? Three? Wow,

0:48

Bridget, I actually don't know what E standard.

0:50

The three E Standford's Electronics something

0:52

something. It's when all the video game announcements

0:54

happened. One of my favorite games that I mentioned

0:57

in that episode, The Last of Us, had like

0:59

a twelve Men it game demo

1:02

that just blew me away. And it's a demo

1:04

and I watched like five times. I'm

1:08

like already planning because I don't have what I

1:10

believe it will be on the PlayStation four and

1:12

I don't have one, but I'm going to buy one when

1:14

that game comes out. I'm like stashing money

1:16

away. We're moving

1:19

towards having more inclusive

1:21

characters and storylines, which is good. There's always

1:23

always always room for more progress. But in

1:26

this episode, Christen Caroline, do look at kind

1:28

of the past of characters

1:31

such as Sammy's which is

1:33

a pretty formative character for me.

1:35

And then, um, where where we're going

1:37

in the future. And uh, another

1:40

game I love is mass In fact, if you heard Mass

1:42

Effect, I have heard of it. I don't know much

1:44

about it. Okay, Well, I'd like games

1:46

like that too, where you can kind of pick if you want to be

1:48

male or female or alien or pretty

1:50

much all kinds of things, and then you get to pursue

1:53

romance with anyone you want. And

1:55

I always went from the cars that's

1:57

a pan sexual dreams. I

1:59

always for the alien and I had a weird crush

2:01

on him, like outside of the game, but

2:05

you have to like go get sex advice at one point

2:07

in the game because he's a he's a different species,

2:09

and the doctors like, well, I would suggest lub

2:13

good advice for anyone alien,

2:15

any species. Really, Lub is always a good advice.

2:18

Yeah, I agree, I agree. So,

2:20

um, we hope you enjoy this are

2:22

our second update in our video game

2:24

kind of little mini serious thing we have happening

2:27

here, and we'll definitely do more episodes on

2:29

video games because it's not obvious. I'm a big

2:31

fan, but enjoy this. In

2:33

the meantime, Hello,

2:38

and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and

2:40

I'm Kristen. This is part two looking

2:43

at women in video games.

2:45

The last episode, which I'm sure

2:47

you listen to, was focusing

2:50

on women in the actual gaming industry,

2:52

the women who designed the games, run

2:55

the company's come up with these

2:57

great ideas, and the fact that while

2:59

the numbers aren't great, there

3:02

is hope out there. We gave you a list of a

3:04

lot of really interesting women who are

3:06

heading up companies and designing the games.

3:09

This episode, we're gonna be talking about

3:11

both the women playing the games and

3:13

the women in the games. Yeah,

3:16

so let's kick off with some numbers

3:19

for a little refresher. Women

3:21

comprise of the entire

3:23

gaming population, and that includes all

3:25

kinds of games, and then from there we

3:27

comprise of video

3:30

gamers. So anyone who says

3:33

women and girls don't play

3:35

video games don't know what

3:37

they're talking about. One

3:41

thing that has kind of lobbed against women

3:43

gamers, though, is that a

3:45

lot of us play social games.

3:48

These might be on social media. They're called

3:50

social or casual gaming, and

3:53

it's things like Candy Crush,

3:55

for instance. Yeah, the interesting thing is

3:58

how King, which is a company that publishes

4:00

Candy Crush, actually tests all of

4:02

its new games on a target

4:04

demo of women to fifty

4:07

five, and if they like it, they go ahead

4:09

and put it out because they've found

4:11

that if women to

4:14

fifty five respond well to a game,

4:17

it goes on to be a smash hit with all audiences.

4:19

What do you know about that? Who knew? Well?

4:22

So, women comprise of

4:24

social gamers compared to forty

4:26

six percent of men, and the average age

4:28

is forty What's up with that? Why?

4:30

Why do women make up such a huge

4:33

percent of social gamers? I think

4:35

it could have something to do with the fact that, I

4:37

don't know, we're busy and we might not have a

4:40

tendency to sit down and play Halo for five hours.

4:42

Yeah. I mean, first of all, we dominate

4:44

social media. There are more of us on places

4:47

like Facebook, where you see so

4:49

many Candy Crush updates and

4:51

ads, um. But experts

4:54

suggest that essentially women

4:56

are adult women where I mean, think about

4:58

moms, okay, working mom. They are multitasking,

5:01

they have so much to do. And there

5:03

was a story that I was reading interviewing one

5:06

woman about her candy crush addiction,

5:09

and she I think she had

5:11

she had a very young child, and she said, I

5:13

play it during naptime because

5:15

it's just this little window of time that

5:17

I have all to myself, and it allows

5:20

me to forget everything. She

5:22

can't sit down and play Call of Duty for

5:24

eight hours, and she says that playing it

5:26

offers her just this window

5:28

of escape and because she doesn't have

5:30

time, for instance, to not that all

5:33

men have hours to kill

5:35

playing Call of Duty kill Call of Duty

5:37

un pun but that

5:40

they think that that's one reason why

5:42

adult women tend to play more on the go

5:44

games is just because we have smaller

5:47

pockets of time throughout the day. Perhaps,

5:49

um, but this whole women being

5:51

more drawn to social and casual gaming

5:54

as it's called. I kind of hate the term casual gaming

5:56

because it plays into the stereotype

6:00

at women aren't legit gamers.

6:03

Because if you start talking

6:05

to quote unquote hardcore gamers

6:07

and you are a female

6:10

identified, well, just get ready because

6:12

they will challenge your credibility because

6:14

they're gonna want to know as soon as you say that you enjoy

6:16

games, you're gonna need you Essentially

6:18

need to resume to prove

6:21

that you know what you're talking about, kind of like talking to like record

6:23

store guys, no offense. Yeah,

6:25

well so you mentioned hardcore, like

6:28

that's that's actually a thing. That's a demographic.

6:30

Hardcore gamers are defined by play

6:32

time per week and are basically a

6:35

smaller subset of a games core

6:37

audience. These are the top

6:39

ten percent of gamers who spend

6:41

the most time playing per week, at

6:44

nineteen hours a week. Nineteen

6:47

hours a week. That's incredible. That's a second job.

6:49

That's like a part time job. And

6:51

Dennis Schameeca over at Venture be looked

6:54

into gender and core

6:56

and hardcore gaming, because don't confuse

6:59

core game ing and hardcore gaming.

7:01

Core gamers simply

7:03

refer to anyone who plays video games

7:06

on consoles like Xbox three, sixty

7:08

p S three uh, as

7:11

well as like Nintendo WE and

7:13

three D S. And when you look at

7:16

the top selling super genres

7:18

as they're called for these core

7:20

gamers, those console players, it

7:22

is a lot of guy oriented stuff. First

7:25

person shooter games, action games,

7:27

sports games. Those are the three not surprisingly

7:30

top sellers, and they have overwhelmingly

7:33

over male audiences.

7:35

Although as we mentioned in that

7:38

last podcast in Part one of our video

7:40

game series. Do not discount women for not

7:42

wanting to play first person shooter

7:44

games, action games, etcetera. Because what

7:46

was it like of

7:49

women enjoy playing violent

7:51

video games? Absolutely, and

7:53

when you talk about these core gamers,

7:55

these are the people who really have the most

7:57

influence over how the public thinks

8:00

about video games and gamers. So when

8:02

you think of a gamer, the image that comes

8:04

to mind is not a forty

8:06

year old married woman playing candy

8:08

Crush. You think of that demographic

8:11

that is playing a first person shooter

8:13

game on the Xbox three sixty

8:15

for instance. So when you look at

8:17

the age breakdown for core and

8:20

hardcore gamers, the core

8:22

audience has an average age of about

8:24

thirty and is excuse

8:27

sixty forty mail. The hardcore

8:29

average age is lower, it's about five

8:32

and skews eighty five to fifteen

8:35

mail. And that I mean that breakdown

8:38

of the hardcore gaming population

8:41

is where a lot of this idea that well, women

8:43

don't play video games, No women are actual

8:45

legit gamers. That's where a lot of this comes

8:47

in. But the thing is, you got to remember

8:49

when you're hearing from hardcore gamers, we're

8:52

talking about like the ninety percentile

8:55

gamers. These are the people who play

8:57

in the top ten percent, like

9:00

nineteen Like you said, an average that

9:02

means some people play plenty more

9:04

than nineteen hours a week. These are

9:07

It's like the voices a few are

9:09

being broadcast too many

9:12

exactly Well, now, Christine, you said something

9:14

a minute ago about like if a if a woman

9:16

or a young girl says that she's a gamer, she basically

9:19

has to prove herself, like she needs a resume to prove

9:21

that she knows about and plays games.

9:24

This ties into the whole girl gamer stereotype,

9:26

and girl usually spelled when

9:28

it's being used as a pejorative

9:31

term gu r L not

9:33

to be confused with the generic just a girl

9:35

game or a female person who plays

9:38

games, and not to be confused with fake

9:40

geek girls. Like all of these things that arouse

9:43

such ire in a lot of young

9:45

men playing video games, and a

9:47

lot of stereotypes that come up with this

9:49

girl gamer surround

9:51

the idea that any woman or

9:54

young girl who is playing games is just doing

9:56

it for attention, And God forbid

9:58

you claim the term girl gamer

10:00

for yourself. God forbids you want to set yourself

10:03

apart as a woman and own it, because

10:05

there's that notion that if you're doing it, you

10:08

do just want attention. You're not even allowed

10:10

to own your own femininity or femaleness.

10:13

Yeah, and and this spawned an entire

10:16

meme across the internet where and you have like women

10:19

participating in it as well, talking down

10:21

about oh, girl gamers. She's just the girl

10:23

gamerh did she instagram herself looking

10:26

cute with her joy stick in our hand?

10:28

Then you're just a girl gamer. You don't actually

10:31

enjoy these games. And

10:34

um, I got into a

10:36

little bit of a Reddit rabbit hole reading

10:38

up on girl gamers because it's just interesting

10:41

to see just first person these

10:43

perceptions and people's supposed

10:46

experiences with them. And there was one

10:49

woman's post on Reddit talking about you

10:51

know what, She kind of copped to it. She said,

10:54

I was a girl gamer

10:56

for a while. She started talking

10:59

about how she kind of found gaming

11:01

and it was the first place

11:03

where she ever received attention,

11:06

any kind of attention from God. She never

11:08

really fit in, she was overweight,

11:10

she just never felt good about herself, and

11:13

finally when she found gaming, all

11:15

of a sudden, men were taking interest

11:18

in her because she was

11:20

into this kind of male oriented hobby,

11:23

and she said that for a while she kind of played

11:25

it up because she enjoyed that

11:28

so much. And to me, her experience

11:31

was telling because it seemed

11:33

like this wasn't an issue of oh, well,

11:36

this most means that women aren't legitimate gamers,

11:38

but more just has to do with you

11:40

know, flirtation, body image, how we

11:43

deal with the world and our attractions

11:45

and attractiveness, etcetera. Where

11:47

But but what is what what it's led to is

11:50

a lot of slut shaming that happens

11:53

and just ickiness that women have to

11:55

deal with. That was one of the main things that

11:58

our Facebook stuff Mo'm Never

12:00

Told you followers responded to when

12:03

we asked what we should talk about regarding

12:05

video games, so many women said, oh,

12:08

please talk about girl gamers and how I always

12:10

have to prove myself. Yeah, but

12:12

those girl gamers are a lot of the times having to prove

12:14

themselves based on their looks, whereas if a dude

12:16

comes along and wants to play a game, it's like, okay,

12:18

well we're going to test you based on your skill. Are you any

12:21

good at this? No? Okay, well, then obviously

12:23

you're not worth it. Whereas when a woman comes

12:25

along, it's like, okay, well are you hot? Are you

12:27

really playing the game? Are you just posing with

12:29

your joystick and like licking it and posting

12:31

pictures of yourself on the internet, Like yeah,

12:33

first of all, why are you looking at joystick? But that's

12:36

the thing, there's like that horrible divide where

12:38

men at least get the get the favor

12:41

of being judged on their actual skill,

12:43

whereas women are just like are you cute or

12:45

not? Or yeah, I don't. I don't think I've ever heard

12:48

anyone termed a guy gamer. Oh he's

12:50

a guy gamer. He's just he's just posing

12:52

with that joystick by his abs, for

12:55

just for the just for the ladies. Well,

12:57

then, I mean that's another thing. You hear a lot of guys

12:59

saying like, shut up about being a girl gamer.

13:01

I don't call myself a guy gamer. You're just a gamer

13:03

and so, but then that discourages girls

13:06

and women who do want to own

13:08

it, because yes, okay, well there's a

13:10

girl gamer demographic. That's like just

13:12

doing it for attention, according to these guys.

13:14

But then what happens when the girls

13:17

and women actually want to say, no, I'm

13:19

different from you, I play differently, I want

13:21

different things, and why do all of these

13:23

criteria have to exist? Katie

13:26

Heeney over at BuzzFeed created

13:28

just such a perfect collection of all

13:31

of the slut shamy, confusing,

13:34

and sometimes straight up sexist and

13:36

contradictory rules for being

13:39

a girl gamer, where it's like, you gotta

13:41

play games, but you can't be too obvious

13:43

about it, because if you're too obvious about how you

13:45

like games, and they're just going to assume that you're a girl

13:48

gamer. And then you know, they guys

13:50

want you to be attractive because we like looking

13:52

at attractive people. But if you're too attractive,

13:54

you know, it's just like and

13:57

so that's why a lot of times women

13:59

will end up going just

14:02

like, won't speak, for instance, on

14:04

you know, like multiplayer games. They won't. They just

14:06

keep their femaleness as

14:08

hidden as possible, just to not have

14:11

to even deal with it. Yeah,

14:13

Blogger Stephanie ben Dixon basically

14:15

said the exact same thing. She was talking about how

14:17

she finds herself editing certain aspects

14:19

of her femininity for fear that it

14:21

would somehow damage her credibility.

14:23

And I mean this gets into all sorts

14:25

of issues that christ and I have talked about before as far

14:28

as fem phobia goes. But Stephanie

14:30

says, hey, look, I have

14:33

a lot of pink tech accessories,

14:35

and she goes into it. It starts to sound really cool, and she's

14:37

like owning her differences. She says she accepts

14:39

the term girl gamer because for now we're

14:41

still a minority that faces

14:44

a wall of angry nerd rage. But

14:46

in talking about her pink accessories, I noticed

14:48

something very interesting because at first she's like, yeah,

14:50

I'm owning it, like pink is different. But

14:53

then she says, I liked the idea

14:55

of how this obnoxiously defiant and slightly

14:58

sickening color would go against the grain somewhat.

15:00

And then I'm like, oh, it's Stephanie, Like

15:03

there's still she while she is owning

15:05

pink and owning the term girl gamer, there's still

15:07

sounds like there's from phobia in that, because she's

15:09

calling the color pink obnoxious

15:11

and sickening, and so it still sounds

15:13

like she's been discouraged over

15:15

her game playing career from kind of owning

15:18

her femaleness. Well, I think it's because of a

15:20

lot of those contradictory rules

15:23

in quotes that pop up for

15:26

you know, just you can't you can't look like

15:28

you're trying too hard, you know. Um.

15:30

And it's fascinating to me that

15:33

in this segment, specifically

15:36

like in gaming, that it's such a prominent

15:39

aspect of it, like this just

15:41

this common assumption that that women have

15:43

some kind of ulterior motive for

15:46

wanting to play games. Um.

15:48

But unfortunately, like the kinds

15:51

of you know, the issues of harassment

15:53

that women in the video game industry,

15:55

the ones who are making the games, sometimes

15:58

run up against another thing there was

16:00

echoed among people on Facebook

16:02

was the issue of also dealing with

16:04

straight up harassment from other gamers as

16:06

soon as their female identity is revealed. Sometimes

16:09

they just get an onslaught of

16:12

come ons, or just gendered

16:15

epithets. Uh. There was a survey

16:17

conducted by Emily Matthew at the Price

16:20

Charting Blog which found that women are harassed

16:22

four times as often as men, and

16:24

six reported being called

16:27

a slut, whore or

16:29

other words that I can't say on this podcast.

16:32

And there are also lots of charming requests

16:34

for women to just get back in the kitchen and start

16:36

making lots of sandwiches. Yeah, and in

16:38

that pole of the people

16:41

she talked to believe that sexism

16:44

is rampant. Interesting

16:46

don't but I mean, you

16:49

know, you would, you would think that they're okay. So

16:51

there is a degree of awareness, but

16:53

it sure is still bad out there despite that awareness.

17:06

It does go both ways. Fifteen point

17:08

seven percent of men also reported that they

17:10

had experienced sex based

17:12

taunting, harassment, or threats

17:14

while playing video games. Um

17:17

and ten percent of women unfortunately

17:20

copped to using their gender for favors, basically

17:23

like strolling into a world of warcraft

17:25

and being like, oh, yes, you wanted

17:27

to give me gold Shore a no problem

17:31

tee. Well, and

17:33

just like we talked about in the last

17:35

episode, where um, a lot

17:37

of well not a lot, but but many

17:39

women, probably many more than we even know. Many

17:41

women have left the industry because of the abuse.

17:44

Nearly thirty six percent of women that Emily

17:46

Matthew pulled reported having to quit playing

17:48

temporarily because of the abuse

17:50

and the harassment, versus eleven point

17:53

seven percent of guys that she pulled.

17:56

Game is game is you'd be mean? Sometimes

17:59

We're looking a little bit deeper into this issue.

18:03

A team over at Ohio University

18:05

looked at the reactions by

18:08

gamers to female voices

18:10

versus male voices on Xbox

18:13

Alive, like looking at first person shooter

18:15

games, and they publish a

18:17

study in the journal New Media and Society,

18:21

and one of the researchers, why you en tang Um,

18:24

explained how, on average,

18:26

female voices received three times

18:29

as many negative comments as male

18:31

voices or no male voices,

18:33

and on top of that, women's voices

18:35

received more queries and messages

18:37

from other gamers than male

18:39

voices or no voices. So it's kind of the same thing

18:42

of Uh, just

18:44

by virtue of being a woman, you sort of open

18:47

yourself up to either being called terrible

18:49

things or being solicited for sex.

18:52

Yeah, so you basically your option

18:54

is to speak and get abused

18:56

or remain silent. Yeah,

18:59

and Tank said, the take home message

19:01

is that female players when herd aren't treated

19:03

as well as their male counterparts,

19:05

despite skill level wins

19:08

or losses. They women aren't attracting

19:10

negative comments just because they be

19:13

terrible a gaming. Yeah, it's like

19:15

there's there's that little sign up on the clubhouse store,

19:17

no girls allowed. Yeah, unfortunate,

19:20

Although I know that not all male

19:22

gamers are like this. Guy, guy gamers

19:25

listening, I'm gonna call you guy gamers. Don't

19:27

worry, I know that it's it's again. I feel

19:29

like it's the loud voices of

19:32

this horrific minority

19:35

that often get the most all that

19:37

they are generating all of this negative press,

19:39

because it's horrifying. It is kind of horrifying.

19:42

So let's look a little bit more maybe into what

19:45

women want in their games,

19:47

aside from harassment,

19:49

obviously, because this is a question

19:51

that ties back to our part one episode,

19:54

looking more at the industry of like what

19:56

they're trying trying to figure out of well

19:58

aside front, we know, we know the candy crush is popular,

20:01

but what kind of games

20:03

do women really like playing? Because

20:06

if you look back into the

20:08

early days of gaming, the

20:11

titles that were made specifically for

20:13

women and girls were so

20:16

hilariously riddled with hearts

20:19

and sparkles and pink. And

20:21

there's actually a site called femicom

20:24

that's calm with an M, which calls

20:26

itself the Feminine Computer Museum. It's

20:28

a website dedicated to archiving

20:31

these quote unquote girl games from

20:33

like the early eighties and nineties, and

20:35

it's kind of fascinating to see. I mean,

20:37

these are also the days when you have alone Carol

20:40

Shaw or Donna Bailey at atari, like

20:42

the only woman like in the room.

20:44

So not surprisingly that

20:46

you have such kind of overtly

20:50

just let's play house. You have

20:52

to do the dishes for twenty points kind

20:54

of games coming up. Kristen accepts

20:56

that challenge. She will organize the dishwasher.

20:58

I will I would win that game, would

21:01

but I mean, yeah, the museum

21:04

founder, I guess we'll call her, basically

21:06

said that she's preserving these games to spark

21:09

conversations, not necessarily preserving

21:11

them because they are so awesome, but preserving

21:13

them because nobody's playing them anymore

21:16

and nobody's talking about them. They're not talking about

21:18

them the way you would like duck Hunt, Like

21:20

everybody has a duck Hunt memory of standing up

21:22

against the TV with the gun even though you're not supposed

21:24

to. But nobody has those collective

21:26

memories of these quote unquote

21:28

girly games. And so she is working

21:31

to preserve them just so

21:33

that we can take a look at why we

21:35

do the things we do, why we look at certain

21:37

games the way we do. Yeah, And and

21:40

she pointed out how girly

21:42

video games are rarely advertised,

21:45

reviewed or written up, and rarely

21:47

demoed in stores. And she says, even if it's

21:49

a huge seller, like the more recent

21:51

game Style Savvy for Nintendo

21:54

d S, which I mean Style Savvy,

21:56

come on, hardcore gamers roll their

21:58

eyes. But it's

22:01

a big seller. And yet it's

22:03

kind of like um with fandom

22:05

in general. A lot of times, girly fandom

22:08

is sort of relegated to the corner, just like Go

22:11

Go Away, hearts and Polka dots. No, no, you

22:13

over here. There's a little pink corner over here.

22:15

So behind that line, I picture like the Lego

22:17

movie, Like there's all these little universes, different

22:19

universes for different videos. Polka

22:22

dot, polka dots. You go over there, and they're all like sad

22:24

polka dot. But the fact of the matter is,

22:26

don't don't worry women gamers

22:29

listening. We're not suggesting that Style

22:31

Savvy is what women want in

22:33

video games. We're also not suggesting the Candy

22:36

Crush or Halo or Grand

22:38

Theft Auto or whatever games. You

22:40

know what people are realizing, Caroline, women

22:44

want different things. We

22:46

don't all want the same kind of game. Weird

22:49

women are different then

22:52

each other. That's what you're That's what you're saying. Women

22:54

are different from each other. Yeah, you and

22:56

me. We might even want to play different games. I

22:58

want to load, I want to play the dishwak your game. Maybe

23:01

you want to play Prince of Persia, build the Sandwich

23:03

game. Yeah, this is coming from Kevin

23:05

Kelly over at joystick dot com. He was talking

23:07

about how women do like story

23:09

driven games. We do appreciate

23:12

in game tutorials, because honestly,

23:14

who reads manuals or even like instruction

23:16

manuals when you're putting together an Ikea shelf?

23:19

Like nobody reads these things. Um.

23:21

But but the point is just making

23:23

women aware of more games, you

23:26

know, letting them know that, hey, they might

23:28

also like Halo as well. But it's

23:31

a matter of not advertising it

23:33

to everyone across the board with

23:35

just some busty, sexy sexpot

23:38

on the cover. You know. Keep in mind that

23:40

your audience is very diverse. Yeah,

23:43

I mean, there is market research that does

23:45

suggest that certain themes, like games

23:47

that are more story driven or sort

23:50

of a more communication based

23:52

the sims, for instance, massively

23:55

popular among women. Maybe

23:58

games that might be a little more emotionally evocative

24:01

tend to appeal more to women. But don't

24:04

get pigeonholes in just trying

24:06

to remake those games over and over again.

24:09

Rather, you know, consider all

24:11

of these women who are also really

24:13

loving to frag people and

24:16

see, hey, maybe we can, maybe we can put a female

24:18

protagonist in there. Put put a gun

24:20

in the hands of a woman, shall we? Video

24:23

game wise video games? Well,

24:25

we are going to talk about women in

24:27

video games, the female protagonist of video

24:30

games, and and how telling their

24:32

roles are. When we come right back from the quick

24:34

break. Well,

24:37

since Caroline and I are all about folks

24:40

learning and using new skills,

24:42

Linda dot com offers thousands

24:45

of engaging and easy to follow video tutorials

24:47

taught by industry experts to help

24:49

you, yes, you learn software,

24:52

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starts at a month and provides

24:57

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25:00

and with Linda dot com, you can learn at your own

25:02

pace from bite sized tutorials or comprehensive

25:04

courses and things like web design, programming,

25:07

and photography. And you

25:09

fair listeners can try Linda dot com

25:12

free for seven days by visiting Linda

25:14

dot com slash mom stuff

25:17

That's Linda dot Com slash mom stuff,

25:19

so they know we sent you. And now

25:22

back to the show. So

25:24

when we left off, we had established

25:26

that while market research has suggested

25:28

that there are certain types of games that women

25:30

like, surprise, surprise, women

25:32

like different kinds of things, And yet

25:35

if you look at the legacy of female

25:38

characters in especially

25:40

like big name video games, they

25:42

start to fall into very

25:45

predictable types of

25:47

roles. So, for instance, in

25:49

the late eighties, this game called Metroid came out, and

25:51

I'm sure a lot of people have played Metroid,

25:54

and it features this character, Sammy's

25:56

female character, and for

25:59

all of the game she's wearing kind of this genderless

26:02

robotic exo skeleton. But

26:05

then and it's like super cool because

26:07

you can like play Sammy's and she's doing

26:10

all sorts of cool stuff. But then when

26:12

you win the game, the

26:14

exo skeleton is taken off to reveal

26:17

her bikini body. Yeah,

26:19

and and an article about this had

26:21

a really really important

26:23

point about this, which is that as

26:25

you're playing the game, that robot

26:28

exo skeleton character, that is you,

26:31

you were the hero and you were shooting. But

26:33

once you win and the

26:36

robots suit is removed and you see

26:38

a bikini clad woman, then

26:41

that character isn't you anymore. It's just a passive

26:43

object that you get to you get rewarded

26:45

with. Yeah. Yeah, And they found we'll

26:47

get into this a little bit more. But speaking

26:50

of that sort of the role playing that happens

26:52

within video games, there is a type

26:55

of self objectification that

26:57

happens just by virtue of playing

27:00

a character, like you take on the role

27:02

of that character, and when you see that character then

27:04

stripped down to reveal a

27:06

busty bikini body, studies

27:09

have shown that it makes us

27:11

think about our own bikini bodies, and usually

27:13

more negative ways. And so

27:16

there was a two thousand nine study essentially

27:18

that took a census of video games

27:21

and it found that not surprisingly, male

27:23

characters not only outnumber women

27:25

in video games, but also

27:27

female characters are overwhelmingly

27:30

stereotypical and sexualized. Even

27:32

the case of a

27:34

potentially really cool character like

27:36

Sammu's now that's people are probably but

27:38

Kristen, that happened in like the eighties.

27:41

That was like the eighties. Things have like totally

27:43

changed, right, No, what who

27:45

are these fictional people that you're referencing, Kristen

27:48

guy gamers? Yeah, No, things are not better.

27:51

And someone who has done a ton

27:53

of research to dig into

27:55

these kinds of tropes is one

27:58

Anita Sarkasian, who made

28:00

quite a name for herself in the video game industry,

28:02

for she had done

28:04

a Tropes Versus Women's series for a while,

28:06

just looking at the portrayals of women

28:08

in pop culture, and she decided

28:11

that she wanted to really dig into the video game

28:13

industry because it is such uh

28:15

massively popular and growing

28:18

form of entertainment for people, and

28:21

she began. She had a Kickstarter

28:23

campaign, and essentially she got

28:26

cyber mopped by a lot of people who are not

28:28

happy about someone wanting to talk about

28:30

video games from a feminist perspective,

28:33

essentially kind of taking a deeper look at

28:35

like, well, what how do these video games

28:37

portray women? And

28:40

the good news is her Kickstarter massively

28:43

exceeded expectations because

28:47

she received such an onslaught of

28:49

cyber attacks from people. She publicized

28:52

and people then rushed to her

28:54

aid um, and she's still I mean, if

28:56

you google her name, especially if you

28:59

look her up in you you if you find her videos,

29:01

but you also find so many videos that people

29:03

trying to discredit her. So I

29:05

feel like we need to give a little context to who

29:07

Anita Sarkisian is, because if

29:10

you are a gamer, you've probably heard of her, and

29:12

there's a good chance that it isn't in a good

29:14

light. But I will tell you I have watched

29:16

her videos. She does a great job

29:19

of offering a comprehensive and non

29:21

threatening look at women in games

29:25

while admitting that she still enjoys these games.

29:27

She's not saying burn video games to

29:29

the ground, but it's worthwhile to look

29:31

into how women are portrayed, because

29:34

she explained this so well in

29:36

an interview with I g N, saying, think of

29:38

it this way. If gaming is the air we

29:40

all breathe. Right now, the air quality is

29:42

currently extremely polluted with thick

29:44

clouds of toxic sexism, with

29:47

radioactive particles of misogyny floating

29:49

around everywhere. Sounds

29:51

terrifying, right, Well, that's society, hello.

29:54

And of course that's not to say and and christ

29:56

and I are trying to drive home that it's not everybody,

29:59

it's not all the time and not everywhere. But there

30:02

are a lot of tropes

30:04

in these games that are worth talking

30:06

about, even if you do like playing them. And we're not

30:08

saying you shouldn't play them. We are, And

30:10

so I think Sarkisian is pleading for a

30:13

little bit of media savvy, to just be kind of

30:15

aware of what you're looking at when you're looking

30:17

at it. And anyway, one of the tropes

30:19

that she focuses hard on is

30:21

the whole damsel in distress. What

30:24

harm could a damsel in distress possibly

30:27

have? But you know, a lot of these

30:30

in your face things that we see over

30:32

and over again tend to drive home stereotypes

30:34

about women and the way we think about women. But

30:36

anyway, before we get into that, what

30:39

is this trope? Basically, Uh,

30:41

it's princesses, wives, girlfriends,

30:43

basically women in these games who

30:46

often end up kidnapped or somehow

30:49

frozen and disempowered,

30:51

or they're put under a spell, or they're frozen

30:53

in a crystal. Basically they're

30:55

trapped somehow. Yeah,

30:57

and by trapping the women, it gives the male

31:00

hero some kind of incentive to go through this

31:02

journey. And hey, you know what, I

31:05

love Super Mario Brothers. Princess Peach

31:07

what a gal. She's great, but she's kind

31:09

of the quintessential damsel in distress.

31:12

Um. And but this started even before Super

31:15

Mario Brothers with Donkey Kong and

31:17

Pauline also known as the Lady and Pauline,

31:20

who was a damsel in distress and Donkey

31:22

Kong was actually kind of the model

31:25

for Princess Peach and Peaches

31:27

kidnapped for instance in thirteen

31:30

out of the fourteen Mario games she's featured

31:32

in, and she's only a playable character

31:34

and Super Mario Brothers too, which came

31:36

out in nine um

31:39

And she also talks about how you see the

31:41

same kind of thing in Zelda named

31:44

for the damsel in distress, and she's

31:46

really Zelda has never really been to star in

31:49

her own adventure. Isn't Isn't that

31:51

a sad metaphor? It is it really

31:53

is, Ladies, let's not be Zelda's Sarkisian

32:07

points out how she does sometimes get

32:09

more active roles, she becomes more

32:11

of a helpful damsel at times, but she always

32:13

ends up at least getting re kidnapped.

32:16

She has to be saved at some point,

32:19

and she says this exists and pretty much

32:21

any type of game, whether you're looking at first person

32:23

shooters, RPGs, MMOs,

32:26

like you're gonna find damsels in distress

32:29

everywhere and even

32:31

when you have a heroic archetype

32:34

of the hero being

32:36

imprisoned, a lot of times the way that hero

32:38

will escape is through his own strength

32:40

and cunning huzzah. And

32:43

this poor freaking damsel like so, not only

32:45

is she like imprisoned in a castle

32:48

or she's trapped or tied up or

32:50

whatever, she also is

32:52

the victim of pretty horrific violence

32:54

and all these different kinds of video games.

32:56

She tends to be basically a disposable

32:58

woman who falls victim to any number

33:01

of horrific violent acts.

33:03

So Sarcasian takes through all

33:05

of these different game titles

33:08

about how they follow similar

33:10

paths of for instance, the hero's

33:12

wife being brutally murdered and then you have

33:14

to rescue the daughter. That happens

33:16

over and over and over again. Or you have a

33:19

wife or girlfriend's soul being trapped in hell

33:21

and so then you know the hero has to travel

33:23

to try to like save the soul. And

33:26

then you might also have damsels

33:28

who martyr themselves that will then

33:30

propel the hero on his journey.

33:33

Sometimes also you have games that force

33:35

the hero to brutally kill

33:38

the wife or girlfriend either because

33:41

it turns out done da dada, she was

33:43

a villain the whole time, or that's like

33:45

the only way that you can win

33:47

the game. Violence against women

33:50

solves everything according to these games, right

33:52

basically, I mean it's sort of the way that these

33:54

a lot of these games work, is it sort of forces

33:56

you into, you know, having

33:59

one sole suan, which is beating

34:02

up, killing, stabbing, shooting,

34:04

strangling, whatever it will take to kill

34:07

these women. And that's that's not so

34:09

good Caroline now. And

34:11

and you know, you could be wondering, well,

34:13

what does this have to do with anything as far as

34:16

real life goes? Why do we care about

34:18

violence and video games? Haven't there been studies

34:20

showing that it doesn't make us a more violent culture.

34:23

Well, actually, unlike

34:25

needless violence against women and all these games

34:28

actually does have quite a big impact.

34:31

Yeah. Why. Yen Tang, who's one of those Ohio

34:33

University researchers we mentioned earlier,

34:36

said quote, the general gist of sexual

34:38

content in video games is that exposure

34:40

to such content leads to attitudes

34:42

that are unfavorable toward women.

34:45

And you see this reflected in so many

34:47

studies. For instance, the two thousand and twelve study

34:49

found that a video game depicting sexual

34:52

objectification of women and violence against

34:54

women resulted in statistically significant

34:57

increase rape myth acceptance

34:59

a sentence really sort of rape supportive attitudes,

35:01

the whole idea of like, you know, women asking for it,

35:04

essential, etcetera. Um.

35:06

And that was more prevalent among

35:08

male study participants, but not for female

35:11

participants. But that's not to say that

35:13

these kinds of video games

35:15

that sexually objectify women don't have

35:18

negative impacts on female players,

35:20

right. Yeah, Stanford

35:22

study found that women who played with a

35:25

sexualized avatar, whether

35:27

it was basically

35:29

with her face on it or with another

35:31

woman's face, engaged in more

35:34

self objectification and

35:36

bought into rape myths more. Yeah.

35:38

You see this theme of increased rape

35:40

myth acceptance a lot in these

35:43

studies. Um. Also in

35:45

two thousand nine, there was a study that came out which

35:47

found stereotype confirming virtual

35:50

women correlated to higher

35:52

levels of sexism and again rape

35:54

myth acceptance in male and female

35:56

players. And we could go on and on and

35:58

on. There are a number of study He's finding over

36:01

and over again that hey,

36:03

when we basically use women,

36:05

highly sexualized women in video

36:08

games as props upon

36:10

which to inflict violence or

36:13

rape. There are you know there there's the infamous

36:15

rape UH scene in Grand

36:17

Theft Auto. There's also a

36:20

rape scene I believe in I don't know if

36:22

it was in the game or just in promotion

36:24

for uh tomb Rader

36:26

addition that came out, and

36:30

basically it's like, no, we don't because

36:32

we're playing. It's different. I feel like it's different

36:34

from sexual assault being portrayed

36:36

in movies and television in a way because it's almost

36:39

more engaging because you're playing those characters,

36:42

right. And I feel

36:44

like when rape and sexual assault

36:46

are depicted in movies and

36:48

TV shows, it's

36:50

always a bad thing. It's

36:52

always like a crime and a negative thing

36:54

that needs to be solved. Whereas if

36:57

you're the first person player in a video

36:59

game that evolves rape and sexualizing

37:02

women, objectifying women, it's

37:04

there's there's nothing necessarily telling you it's wrong.

37:07

Yeah, it's fodder for your heroism, and

37:10

and that can have negative impacts on male and female

37:12

players, and the solution isn't yet. Again,

37:14

it's not a call to get

37:17

rid of video games, but rather to

37:20

ask for better raise

37:22

the bar. I mean, you can have you can you

37:24

can shoot up as many things as

37:27

you want to in games. This isn't

37:29

us railing against gun violence

37:31

and video games, but rather,

37:35

like you said, you know, Sarkisian kind of

37:37

requesting a little bit of media savvy. It's important

37:39

to pay attention to what we're consuming and

37:42

yeah, and not do away with, like you said,

37:44

shoot him up games or whatever, but just

37:47

offer more and different things

37:49

like left Behind, which has garnered

37:52

incredible praise. People are coming out of the woodwork

37:54

to be like, oh my god, this game is amazing

37:56

a change in my life. It features

37:59

a fourteen year old old girl protagonist,

38:02

Yeah, and she also interacts with

38:04

her best friend Riley, but

38:06

she still has to do a lot of really

38:09

tough things. And Laura

38:11

Hudson wrote about left Behind

38:14

recently in Wired magazine and

38:16

it was headlined something along the lines of left

38:18

Behind was the first video game that really

38:21

made me feel like proud to

38:23

be a woman, and she writes, we don't

38:25

just need more women in video games,

38:27

we need more women who don't fit in

38:29

boxes. And she talks about how left

38:32

Behind isn't remarkable just because it

38:34

meets a quota, but because

38:36

Ellie and her best friend Riley are

38:38

people. They're fully realized. They're quirky, they're

38:40

funny, and they're dangerous. And she says

38:43

that Ellie is there because she's herself, and for

38:45

once, that's reason enough. She's

38:47

not there to just titillate and

38:49

motivate. Players are like, oh, you know, Ellie's

38:53

been beaten, so go go

38:55

kill somebody. It's all

38:57

about her. And like we

38:59

said in episode number

39:01

one, uh, Call of Duty. Ghosts,

39:03

for instance, is going to have a female playable

39:06

character in its multiplayer component. Yeah.

39:09

BioWare's Mass Effect three has

39:11

implemented changes that allow for gay romance.

39:13

I mean, diversity beyond just women

39:16

is something that we didn't even have time to

39:18

talk about in a two part series

39:21

on video games. Um So,

39:24

LGBT acceptance and visibility

39:26

in games is something too that needs to be

39:29

strongly addressed. Me. A lot of what

39:31

we see is is very headeronormative

39:33

violence against women. Are just headteronormative

39:36

romances, and it's like, hey, uh,

39:38

I'm over here, I'm an LGBT player.

39:41

I exist too, And

39:43

not to mention two racial diversity

39:46

as well, overwhelmingly male

39:48

or female, the protagonists are going to be white.

39:50

A lot of the industry itself

39:53

is very white. Um, so

39:55

there's a lot of room for improvement. And

39:57

the thing is, a lot of

40:00

gamers sometimes get up in arms about the

40:02

possibility of changes. You get attached to a

40:04

game, you love a game, if you're spending, like if you're

40:06

a hardcore gamer nineteen plus hours

40:08

a week with a game, it's understandable

40:10

that you might be a little resistant to change.

40:13

But it's only going to make things better,

40:16

yeah, you know, And it's going to make things better

40:18

for you know, not just the games,

40:20

but for the people who play them as

40:22

well. And shouldn't that be the the ultimate

40:24

goal? No? Not for no. People

40:27

want to people want to just shoot

40:29

things on a screen, right,

40:31

Yeah? Is that's what it is? Crush candies.

40:34

I don't know the answer, Caroline. This is this

40:36

is why I really want to hear

40:39

from listeners on this issue.

40:41

What is it like to be a gamer,

40:43

especially if you are a woman out there?

40:45

I mean, do you deal with issues of having to prove your credibility?

40:48

Um? Are you harassed or are

40:51

you immune to all of this stuff? Do you find

40:53

this kind of these kinds of issues sensationalized?

40:56

We want to hear from everybody. What are your thoughts on

40:58

this mom Stuff a Discovery dot com is where

41:00

you can email us or you can tweet us

41:02

at Mom's Stuff podcast, and we've got

41:04

a couple of messages to share with you right

41:07

now. Well,

41:11

I've got a message here from Christopher about

41:13

our men scaping episode,

41:16

and he said, I'd like to make a statement

41:18

of opposition in regard to your comments about male

41:21

body hair still being socially acceptable

41:23

in the US. As a twenty two year old guy

41:25

with body hair, I get ridiculed and laughed

41:28

at on a nearly daily basis

41:30

by my peers and coworkers, and

41:32

I'm often told that if I want to get a girlfriend,

41:35

quote, you need to not be an abominable

41:37

snowman bro. Maybe

41:39

this is just East Coast college town culture,

41:41

but my experience here and in Houston

41:44

were about the same. As a side note, I've

41:46

tried manscaping in the past, both with near and traditional

41:48

methods, but removing all that hair is an

41:50

arduous task that rewards me with ingrown

41:53

hair and the sensation of sand paper

41:55

taped to the backside of all my shirts.

41:57

I can only hope that I find a lady who doesn't

42:00

mind my body here, if any exists,

42:02

and Christopher, they absolutely

42:04

exist. Yeah, I'm pointing

42:06

at myself right here, because my question

42:09

to you about these people who are like trying to humiliate

42:11

you, are they all dudes, because

42:14

there are plenty of ladies out there who don't

42:17

mind it or do like it. My

42:19

my gentleman caller does

42:22

have quite a bit of hair in

42:25

places, and he's

42:29

very handsome. Yeah. Yeah, I say,

42:31

don't don't listen. Don't listen to the hair

42:34

haters. And this is also an example too

42:36

of why we wanted to talk about this issue,

42:38

because you're experiencing the

42:40

same and so many other guys i'm sure are experiencing

42:42

the same kind of body hair shame that

42:44

has usually just been targeted on women.

42:46

But Christopher, don't

42:48

worry. There are plenty of women who don't

42:51

mind and might even like a hairy

42:53

bag. Yeah, Because if you're getting a bunch of that flak

42:55

from fellow dudes, all that means

42:57

is that they're buying into the junk that like those

43:00

men's magazines are selling them, and they're probably

43:02

voicing some insecurity.

43:05

Okay, I have a letter here from es may Um

43:07

also about our grooming episode.

43:10

She says, for as long as I can remember. As a woman,

43:12

I have been very aware of this expectation

43:14

to remove almost all body hair, and personally,

43:16

it's never really sat right with me. I

43:19

was brought up with role models like Patty Smith,

43:21

who not only grew out their body hair, but we're not afraid

43:23

to show it off. The cover to Patti

43:25

Smith's album Easter is a perfect

43:27

example of this. But as a woman in her

43:29

early to mid twenties, I've never come across

43:31

someone who shares the beauty in body

43:33

hair. I'm more than happy with every other

43:35

aspect of my body, but hate having to shave for

43:38

other people. I found it interesting

43:40

when you spoke of the anxiety that some men

43:42

and women feel when not shaving, and I think I

43:44

feel the opposite. I prefer how

43:46

I look when I let my body do its thing, and

43:48

I wish that wasn't seen as such a disgusting

43:51

choice. So thank you, es

43:53

May, and thank you for sending that picture of Patti Smith's

43:55

cover, and thanks to everybody who's

43:57

written into us. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot

43:59

Com is where you can send your emails.

44:02

If you want to reach out to us on social media,

44:05

check out this podcast with all

44:07

the links to all of our sources, watch

44:10

our videos, read our blogs. There's

44:12

one place to go and that stuff I've

44:14

never told you. Dot com

44:19

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44:21

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