0:03

Welcome to stuff Mom Never told

0:05

you. From how Supports dot com.

0:12

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

0:14

and I'm Caroline. And as this

0:18

podcast is airing, Caroline,

0:21

you and I will be in California,

0:23

sunny California, wearing

0:25

shorts and halt top sunglasses,

0:28

riding in a convertible with a with a

0:30

giant lodge brimmed hat blowing in

0:32

the wind. That's right, none of that is

0:34

actually happening. And none of that is actually happening.

0:36

But we are excited to be going

0:39

to Los Angeles for the

0:41

Makers two thousand fourteen

0:43

conference, which essentially

0:47

is a gathering of powerful,

0:50

slightly intimidating women and

0:53

we have the privilege of going and hanging

0:55

out with them for a couple of days.

0:58

Yeah, and Kristen and I will be tweeting

1:00

today from the conference. My

1:02

tweets will probably mostly consist of

1:04

how nervous I am, Um,

1:07

oh lord, what do I talk about? My

1:09

hands are sweating, things like that. Yeah.

1:11

And if you want to follow the hashtag Makersteen

1:15

to see tweets from other people

1:17

who will be at the conference, and

1:19

you can follow along that way, but

1:22

you're only people might be wondering Makers,

1:24

What what is that? Yeah,

1:27

Makers is actually we have cited it on the podcast

1:29

before talking about very important women. But it's

1:31

basically this digital video

1:34

initiative to kind of

1:36

raise awareness about some incredible

1:38

women and the contributions they've made to our

1:40

society at large. Yeah. It was started

1:43

by a woman named Dylan McGhee and

1:45

it kicked off with a documentary

1:47

that aired on PBS called Makers,

1:49

Women Who Make America. And I watched

1:51

it the first time a while back,

1:54

and I highly recommend it at least

1:56

the time. You could watch the whole thing. I think

1:58

it's three parts on pbo us and it's just

2:00

a great overview of

2:03

women's history in the United States.

2:05

Yeah, and so the conference

2:07

is serving to kind of take

2:10

all of this amazing history that's been

2:12

basically archived in one impressive

2:14

place on the PBS website and

2:16

put it into action, bringing all of these women together

2:19

to talk about really amazing important things.

2:21

And if you want to find out more about Makers,

2:23

you can just head over to Makers dot com,

2:25

where you probably gonna want to hang out for a while because

2:27

they have a massive video archive

2:30

of interviews with incredible

2:32

women and the incredible women we're going to focus

2:34

on in today's podcast are

2:37

trailblazing women

2:39

in comedy because Makers is actually

2:42

working on a full length documentary

2:45

following Women in the Comedy

2:47

Industry, which I cannot wait

2:49

to see. Um. It's scheduled to air July

2:52

eighth of this year, and it basically

2:54

tracks the rise of women in comedy from the

2:56

seventies to the eighties all the way

2:58

up to today. Move these like bridesmaids

3:01

things like that. Yeah, And it's going to include

3:03

interviews with Chelsea Handler, Monique, Sarah

3:05

Silverman, Lily Tomlin, Carol Burnett

3:08

and on and on and on and

3:10

so kind of too. Because we're so

3:12

excited about the documentary but we can't watch it

3:14

yet. We're going to talk about

3:17

very briefly about the history of women

3:20

in the comedy industry.

3:22

And first we have to start

3:25

off with the tale as old

3:27

as time, which is

3:29

the assumption that women

3:32

aren't funny. We just we

3:34

are not funny, right, And

3:38

I think it's you can bust this myth

3:40

with just common sense. You don't even have to

3:42

bring up funny women or list funny

3:45

women. You don't even have to look at anything like

3:47

that. It's so easy to think about

3:49

the fact that women traditionally

3:52

are supposed to be in a more submissive

3:54

role, right, We're supposed to be a little more polite,

3:56

a little more quiet. Men are the ones

3:58

who are supposed to get up in front of people

4:00

and be funny, and they can be loud, and they can

4:02

be dirty. And so if

4:04

women never had the chance to get up

4:07

and be funny, which they finally

4:09

started doing in the fifties

4:11

sixties onward, um,

4:14

you know, there was no way they could disprove that. But

4:16

the most recent horrible

4:20

opinion column basically about

4:22

this topic was the big one in two thousand

4:25

seven from the late Christopher Hitchens. Yeah,

4:27

he read a piece for Vanity Fair called

4:30

women Aren't Funny. And

4:32

in pretty much any article

4:35

that you read today talking

4:37

about women in comedy, you

4:39

hear about two things you're about Christopher

4:42

Hitchens, women aren't funny Vanity

4:44

Fair, Peace, and then bridesmaids

4:47

every single time. And in a nutshell

4:50

Hitchens says that women aren't funny

4:52

because of our more maternal nature's

4:55

evolutionarily, we just

4:57

don't have a capacity for humor.

4:59

We because we are, like

5:01

you said, more submissive and are

5:04

more kind of self protective and

5:06

I don't even care to go in

5:08

depth on it because the

5:11

funny thing, ha ha, is that

5:14

hitchens idea is by no means new,

5:16

even though it got so much

5:19

attention that people are still talking about it all

5:21

the time. But hey, let's go back to

5:23

I don't know eighteen forty two,

5:26

shall we? What happened in eighteen

5:28

forty two? Well, Caroline in eighteen forty

5:30

two, a contributor to Graham's

5:33

magazine and an esteemed publication

5:35

I'm sure, claimed quote there

5:38

is a body in substance to true wit,

5:40

with a reflectiveness rarely found

5:42

apart from a masculine intellect.

5:45

The female character does not admit

5:47

of it. Interesting. Yeah,

5:49

And in nineteen o one Harper's Bizarre asked,

5:52

have Women a Sense of Humor? Well?

5:54

That is so original, Hitchens.

5:57

Not to disparage the work of

6:00

someone who is no longer with us, I think

6:02

it's okay, But isn't that incredible?

6:04

Though? That's that's nineteen o one Harper's

6:07

bizarre article basically positing the

6:10

exact same thing. And by the way, these

6:12

are old magazine pieces were

6:15

cited in Kristen Anderson

6:17

Wagner's Have Women a Sense of humor,

6:19

comedy, and femininity in early

6:21

twentieth century film. And

6:24

beyond the Harper's Bizarre article, there

6:26

are other citations,

6:28

For instance, in nineteen o nine, a

6:30

newspaper saying that quote,

6:33

you do not find much in women to arouse

6:35

your sense of humor. Measured by the ordinary

6:38

standards of humor. She's about as comical

6:40

as a crutch, or as comical as

6:42

a tampon. So

6:45

what is it though? I mean, because like,

6:48

I can understand how in nineteen o

6:50

nine women might have been

6:52

seen as humor lists compared to today,

6:54

but like everyone in nineteen o nine would have been.

6:58

My stereotype of that era is

7:00

generally that everybody was coughing uncomfortably

7:03

all the time, kind

7:05

of the way my dad does when like something racy

7:07

comes on TV. Like, I just imagine

7:10

early twentieth century, late nineteenth

7:12

century just everybody doing that all the time. Yeah, in

7:14

my mind's eye, it just looks like a Daguero

7:16

type where it's all tones,

7:19

it's everything is kin burns

7:22

the Civil War. But Anderson really

7:25

eloquently nails

7:27

how the late nineteenth

7:30

century femininity constructs

7:32

that we then here bleeding into those

7:35

articles in the early nineteen hundreds

7:37

are at odds with comedy

7:40

because during the Victorian era

7:42

you have this thing called the cult

7:44

of true womanhood arising.

7:47

And Anderson writes the

7:49

inherently aggressive nature of comedy

7:52

is also diametrically opposed to the cultural

7:54

idea of femininity as defined at

7:56

the turn of the twenties century, with its emphasis

7:59

on submissive this deference

8:01

and passivity, comedians

8:03

deliver punchlines and kill

8:06

their audience. I mean,

8:08

do you agree, Do you agree that comedy

8:10

is opposed to the traditional idea of

8:12

femininity? Yeah, I think it is because

8:15

when you even today, for

8:18

funny women on stage,

8:20

there's still this even though we're breaking

8:23

out of it more and more, there's still

8:25

these questions of how pretty

8:27

can you be? How like

8:29

how much sex appeal

8:31

can you deliver? Does it need

8:34

to hinge on self deprecation? Do you essentially

8:36

need to mask your femininity

8:39

in order to be accepted as

8:42

someone who can be as funny as

8:44

a dude? And a lot of comedians,

8:47

especially early comedians, would say yes.

8:49

A lot of the women who were groundbreakers

8:51

and trailblazers said that they absolutely

8:54

had to dress a certain way,

8:56

look a certain way, speak a certain way

8:58

so that men wouldn't be staring at

9:00

them and being confused when comedian

9:03

said, you know, you can't look too sexy up there, because you'll

9:05

just confuse men as to whether they're supposed to laugh at

9:07

you or you know, ugle you. Yeah. And

9:09

there's also the issue to that that

9:12

women comedy delivered by women

9:14

is women's comedy, whereas

9:17

guys on stage or just comedians

9:21

were just they're just being there, just being

9:23

funny, right, And I mean that is gender

9:25

issues in a microcosmic ladies and gentlemen. That

9:28

women are gendered, male is neutral.

9:31

Yeah. And it's this relationship

9:33

with femininity, gender

9:36

and comedy that makes

9:38

it really significant what these

9:41

groundbreaking, hilarious

9:43

women have done and why it's I

9:46

don't know it meaningful to talk

9:48

about comedy because just

9:50

taken by itself, comedy

9:53

is such a powerful force

9:55

for social critique, whether we're talking

9:57

about gender or talking about ray

10:00

or talking about I mean, even George

10:02

Carlin words that you can and can't say,

10:05

right, And Nancy Walker, in a very

10:07

serious thing Women's Humor in American

10:09

Culture points this out. She says, an

10:11

essential purpose of humor is to call the

10:14

norm into question. The humor

10:16

of those on the threshold is apt to reveal a

10:18

perception of incongruity that not

10:20

only questions the rules of culture but also

10:22

suggests a different order. Yeah,

10:25

and there have been plenty

10:27

of female comedians on stage and in

10:29

film since the early

10:31

nineteen hundreds. Um, but we're not really

10:33

going to get into more of women

10:36

in Hollywood in comedy, or

10:38

even vaudeville and burlesque,

10:40

which were early stages for women

10:43

to do funnier acts, even though they usually had

10:45

either a male sidekick or they

10:48

would do it through song and dance

10:50

routines. And instead, in

10:52

this episode, we're really going to focus on

10:55

women in the comedy industry, talking

10:57

about doing stand up, improv,

11:00

sketch and things

11:02

really start to take off in

11:04

the late nineteen fifties and sixties

11:07

with three women, Philis Stiller,

11:10

Elaine May, and a name

11:12

will be familiar to probably all of you, Joan

11:15

Rivers. It's so funny

11:17

to read about her early career

11:19

taking off and becoming this kind of body

11:22

comedian. Um and thinking

11:24

of her now where she's just talking about

11:27

celebrity, young celebrity women and how awful

11:29

their dresses are. Yeah, she's just the insult

11:31

comic, just always

11:33

being snarky, right, And

11:36

all of this is coming from the very

11:38

heavily publicized We Killed

11:40

the Rise of Women in American Comedy by yah

11:42

L Cohen Um and her book

11:44

was initially inspired by her two thousand

11:47

nine Marie Claire article, which

11:49

was basically an oral history talking

11:51

to big names in comedy

11:53

like Kathy Griffin, Rosanne Joy

11:56

Behar and Janine Garoffalo. Yeah, and

11:58

she was just asking them about issues

12:00

of attractiveness on stage,

12:02

whether you had to downplay, whether stand up is

12:05

as much of a boy's club as you would assume

12:08

it is. Answer, Yeah, pretty

12:10

much, and kind of how they banded together

12:12

to break through the ranks,

12:14

breakthrough the what's termed the crass

12:17

ceiling that exists.

12:20

Um. And so the first person

12:22

though, that Cohen really highlights

12:25

is Phyllis Diller, who

12:27

was a Bob Hope style

12:30

comic who intentionally wore unflattering

12:32

outfits and she was always

12:34

dissing on her husband Fang

12:37

and her sister in law she called Captain

12:39

Blood. And I'm laughing because I

12:41

feel so old

12:44

saying this out loud, But Caroline, in

12:47

preparation for this podcast, I watched

12:49

some Philistillers stand up yesterday

12:51

and I was home alone laughing out

12:54

loud to the Ed Sullivan Show.

12:56

You know she was funny,

12:58

Yeah, well, I mean she was also shocking in

13:01

her in her funniness. And what's funny about the

13:03

way that she her humor was very

13:05

much I wouldn't say it's

13:07

observation base the way that a lot of modern comedy

13:10

is, but it was very much like talking about her life

13:12

and using that as a base of humor. But what's funny

13:14

about talking about her husband and making him out to be the brute

13:16

is in in real life I r

13:18

L. It was actually her husband who encouraged

13:21

her to pursue this career in comedy, like they

13:23

needed extra money. She was working these various

13:26

jobs and he was the one who was like, you're funny,

13:28

go be a comedian. Yeah, And

13:30

she ended up becoming the first female

13:32

stand up to garner mass mainstream

13:35

appeal. And it's also significant that

13:38

she didn't get her start through vaudeville,

13:40

which was the at that point, the route

13:42

that you took to get any kind of notoriety

13:45

as as a funny lady. And she and

13:47

she didn't have, you know, a male sidekick.

13:49

You had someone like Gracie Allen at

13:51

the time, who was very popular, but she was

13:53

sort of a comic foil to her husband on stage.

13:56

So I mean Diller just went

13:58

out on her own. I mean she

14:01

found an agent and started doing these

14:03

clubs, and her her style

14:05

is so old school and that it's all just

14:07

like set up punchlines, set up punchline.

14:10

Mean, she doesn't stop and

14:12

she'll she'll just laugh at herself the

14:14

whole time, and it's incredible,

14:16

Like how many like she can just keep going and

14:18

going and going. Yeah, but I

14:20

liked reading about how she found her

14:23

her style, her niche, her voice, because

14:25

you know, people didn't really know what

14:27

to do with her. They didn't know what to make of her. She

14:30

was very skinny, very small. Um,

14:32

you know, on stage she often camouflaged

14:35

her body, but you know, she didn't want to be

14:37

she didn't want to be seen for that. But when she first

14:39

started out, you know, people were putting her on

14:41

stage in these crazy outfits and having

14:43

her sing and try to be sexy, and it was just like,

14:46

no, that's not that's not what philis

14:48

Stiller's all about. But she

14:50

definitely kept wearing as unflattering

14:53

clothes as possible, and she constantly,

14:55

throughout her routines makes fun of her

14:57

body. But when she's talking off stage

15:00

age she said something along the lines of like,

15:02

well, I have a fabulous figure, but

15:04

women wouldn't like me if

15:07

I come out looking like I do in

15:09

real life, which is like a model. Yeah.

15:12

And she said that she basically wore an equivalent

15:14

to like a potato sack because to cover up

15:16

her breath, so that it would just be assumed that to

15:18

go along with her slim figure, that she was also

15:20

flat chested. That it just worked to her favor,

15:22

to her whole her whole bit. Yeah,

15:25

and so just sort of as a sign of the

15:27

times when she was starting

15:29

to really make a name for herself. Uh.

15:32

Cohen's cites a nineteen

15:34

sixty one review in The New York

15:36

Times which says Phillis Diller,

15:38

who was installed for a four week run at the Bonsoir

15:41

in Greenwich Village, is the leading member of

15:43

that rare breed of nightclub entertainer,

15:46

the female stand up comic. But

15:48

don't you think you would still hear that something

15:51

like that today? Yes? Yeah,

15:53

yeah, absolutely, because

15:56

I feel like somebody like Sara Silverman would

15:58

be discussed in this exact same manner

16:01

or tone, like the way. I mean, you

16:03

know, I won't go off into a whole Sarah Silverman

16:05

thing, but you know, just the way that she was talked

16:07

about at that roast. I can't even remember

16:09

who it was for. Was it Charlie Sheen, but

16:11

anyway, like everybody who got up there

16:14

and who picked on her was picking on her

16:16

age. It was like a very like,

16:19

wow, that's the only joke you have to make about

16:22

this particular person who happens to be a woman.

16:24

Good job everybody. Yeah, yeah,

16:26

I mean, it's it's incredible how much

16:28

progress has been made and yet

16:31

still I mean even here, if

16:33

we go out to stand up shows, to open

16:35

mics, there are far

16:38

more guys who are going to get up on stage.

16:40

Well yeah, and a part of that is I can't remember

16:43

who said this, but they said something to the effect of

16:45

like, you know, a woman, if she gets

16:47

booed or nobody laughs, she's going to be like, oh,

16:49

I'm terrible, I'm not funny, whereas a

16:51

man will just kind of keep pushing through and be

16:53

like get better through the process

16:56

of just continuing to go

16:58

up having that confidence and himself like ask

17:00

for them. I'm fine, I'm funny. Well that's

17:03

interesting too. Like speaking of Sarah Silverman,

17:05

I forget who was telling the story about

17:08

when she was briefly on SNL

17:11

and they were let go

17:13

and that night Silverman's

17:16

friend wanted to just go out and

17:18

get drunk and forget about everything, and

17:20

Silverman went out and did stand up and

17:23

that, and her friend was saying like, well, then that's when I

17:25

knew she was going to make it, because we

17:27

had just been canned by Lauren Michaels

17:29

and she wanted to go do stand up, which is like

17:32

the most brutal thing that you can do to yourself.

17:35

Yeah. Well, so another big name

17:37

we have to talk about is Elaine

17:40

May, and her roots really

17:42

in comedy could not be more different from Phili

17:44

Stiller's. Yeah, she was. She

17:47

had a little more of cerebral theatery

17:49

roots. I think she came up in Chicago

17:52

and Second City when they were first

17:54

forming as more of a not

17:57

so much a comedic group, but it

18:00

just kind of these improvised plays,

18:03

sort of absurdist type performances

18:05

that weren't necessarily meant to be comedy. They were

18:08

just meant to portray life. Yeah, yeah,

18:10

And she hit the big time in nineteen

18:12

fifty nine with her like

18:15

improviser partner Mike Nichols,

18:18

and then we killed. Cohen notes

18:20

how they're dynamic with sharp,

18:22

neurotic and unabashedly intellectual,

18:24

making a strong departure from

18:26

the eras other male duos,

18:29

and Elaine may eventually broke

18:31

out on her own sum but

18:34

I had to google image her when I was reading

18:36

about her, and then I recognized

18:38

her from seeing her in some old films.

18:40

But she never really Um, I

18:42

don't think she's definitely not as much

18:44

of a household name as someone like Philis

18:46

Diller. Right. Well, they write about how she,

18:49

you know, hates publicity. She doesn't

18:51

want to do all that stuff. When The New York Times asked

18:53

to interviewers, she said, sure, as long as

18:55

I can interview myself. And

18:58

um, I think it was Paul Julie was

19:00

talking about how much he just freaking

19:02

loved her interview because she

19:05

was making fun of everything. You know. She

19:07

she wrote the question, you know, what is most important

19:10

to you as an actress, and then she wrote

19:12

the answer good grooming. Well.

19:14

Juley talks about how he like doubled over

19:16

laughing because she didn't give you

19:19

know, a good gosh darn about grooming at

19:21

all. And so I think that was more

19:23

of her way. She didn't want the publicity, she didn't

19:25

want the startom. She just kind of wanted to do

19:27

her own thing. And I also thought it was interesting

19:30

too how in UM people's

19:32

interviews about her, a

19:34

couple brought up that she had

19:37

a reputation among people

19:39

who didn't know her for being

19:41

really domineering and rude, and

19:44

essentially that if she didn't

19:46

like how a scene was going or something, she,

19:48

like any other male performer would

19:51

say stop, you know, like she eventually

19:53

like voiced, essentially voiced her own

19:55

concerns. Yet, and

19:58

this was something that Carol Burnett brings up as

20:00

well. Yet that was

20:02

like if you were a woman doing that speaking

20:05

up for yourself, then you were penalized.

20:08

Yeah. One of the actors said when he worked with her,

20:10

like, you know, she was great, She was professional, she was

20:12

a sweetheart, she was funny, she was really smart,

20:15

and he never saw that that rumored

20:18

you know, B word No. Yeah,

20:21

but but in terms

20:23

of B wordness, Joan Rivers

20:26

certainly embraces it. UM

20:28

she comes along a little later on

20:31

after Diller and Elaine May

20:33

have made a name for themselves, and she becomes

20:35

really the first female comic to

20:38

kind of air her laundry about being

20:40

a single woman with a mom

20:42

who wants her to get married yesterday,

20:45

and significantly she

20:47

does not try to

20:49

hide her attractiveness

20:52

right and writing about her act

20:55

and Q magazine, Eugene Bow writes,

20:58

Joan Second City Hers is a

21:00

very funny fem in search of an act.

21:03

Her unmeasured monologue contains some of the

21:05

sharpest, smartest talk to proceed out of the mouth

21:07

of a babe. Since Elane May,

21:10

female comics are usually horrors who

21:12

desects themselves for a laugh. And so

21:14

this writer sounds like so relieved

21:16

that there is a woman who's good to look at while

21:19

she's talking. Yeah, And and I

21:21

also went back and watched some Joan

21:24

Rivers stand up. And while personally

21:27

I kind of can't stand Joan Rivers

21:29

today because it's just you know, and I got

21:31

her stick, all right, You're not gonna like much of

21:33

any way that a woman looks, and you always have

21:36

a one liner. But she was funny, like her

21:38

observational humor about relationships

21:40

and dating dynamics from the nineteen

21:42

sixties honestly could be

21:45

delivered on a stage today and still

21:47

hold up in terms of, like,

21:49

you know, she she was talking

21:51

going on and on in the bit that I was watching about

21:54

age, where when she was

21:56

twenty six and single, it was like she was

22:00

ninety, whereas if you're a nine year old guy,

22:02

you're still somehow datable, yea, those

22:04

kinds of things. But so

22:07

we've been doing all of this talking about some amazing

22:10

trailblazers in comedy,

22:12

and we're going to talk about a few more

22:14

when we come back from this quick break.

22:16

And now back to the show. So when

22:18

we left off, we had talked about three

22:22

women who made it big more on the stage

22:24

than on the screen. That's Phil Stiller,

22:26

Elaine May and Joan Rivers. But now

22:29

we're up to nineteen when

22:32

the Carol Burnett Show launches,

22:35

and this is You might have seen it on

22:37

Nick at Night before, but this

22:39

was a huge deal. And since

22:41

this is our Makers of Comedy episode,

22:43

we should not that Carol Burnett is a maker.

22:46

Yeah she is, and I love her, and

22:48

my father loves her, and I bought my dad

22:51

Carol Burnett DVDs for his birthday this

22:53

past year, and we sat around and watched them and

22:55

and it's great because you can really

22:57

nerd out over Carol Burnett because the dv d

23:00

s are not only the show itself,

23:02

but a lot of interviews and talking to

23:05

her and the rest of the cast and all that good

23:07

stuff. And and the thing

23:09

that I came away with from that was, you

23:11

know, just like, Carol Burnett's an amazing

23:14

person. You know, she's super

23:16

talented, super funny. She has

23:18

such a great uh

23:20

instinct for comedy and such a great vision

23:22

for what she wanted her show to be. And

23:25

she is the first woman to host

23:27

a TV variety show. And

23:30

funnily enough, she grew up in Hollywood,

23:32

but then moved to New York, where she ended

23:35

up getting Broadway gigs, which

23:37

then eventually led to a supporting

23:40

actress role with CBS. And

23:42

she was really successful with CBS. So

23:44

she ended up with a

23:46

contract that has stipulation in

23:48

it that she could have her

23:51

own show and any kind of show that

23:53

she wanted, and so

23:55

she wanted a variety show. She wanted a variety

23:58

show, and CBS was like wait,

24:00

wait, no, uh no, I don't think

24:02

you're you have lady parts. I don't think you can

24:05

do that. That's a man thing. Um.

24:08

So they actually pitched her a pilot for a

24:10

show called Here's Agnes. Here's

24:12

Agnes. Now,

24:14

while I would be curious to watch

24:17

a show called Here's Agnes, that,

24:19

I mean, like what a letdown that would have been.

24:22

Yeah, that's just gonna be her. I just picture her in

24:24

like the Cramer role, like opening the door every

24:26

day and everybody's like, here's Agnes, Agnes

24:30

and there's like a like a horn tuting in the background

24:33

whenever that happens. Um.

24:35

But she stuck to her guns

24:37

though, and said, oh, hey, actually no, contractually,

24:41

you are bound to give

24:43

me the kind of show that I want. So they had

24:45

to do the Variety Show, and she

24:47

talks about how it was so apparent when

24:50

they first started filming that CBS

24:52

did not think it had a snowball's

24:55

chance in hell of lasting.

24:57

But lo and behold, it ended

25:00

up running from nineteen sixty seven

25:02

to nineteen seventy eight. Yeah,

25:05

she ended up earning six Emmys and two

25:07

Golden Globes for her show. And

25:09

I mean, what, what, like that's

25:11

like pie in the face of CBS.

25:14

You know, just like, this show was

25:16

so successful and it was run by a

25:18

woman. Imagine that. Yeah, and

25:21

Splitsider says that Burnett

25:23

became the first breakout female sketch

25:25

player in TV history and paved the way for

25:28

women in sketch comedy.

25:30

Yeah, and she this woman, I mean, she was so

25:32

willing to dive into any type of character.

25:34

I mean, whether it's the dizzy secretary or

25:37

whoever. I mean, she could pull it off.

25:39

Now. She did like the more serious kind

25:41

of you know, cheesy musical numbers

25:44

on the show as well. But I mean she was obviously

25:46

so talented. Yeah, and I mean,

25:48

and it's still funny today

25:51

to watch. And meanwhile, and

25:54

probably partially due to the success

25:56

of Carol Burnett, you also have shows

25:59

coming on the air like Mary Tyler

26:01

Moore that launches in seventy

26:03

the spin off Rhoda that comes out in nineteen

26:06

seventy four, and significantly

26:08

in nineteen the very

26:10

first episode of Saturday

26:12

Night Live, right, and

26:15

Saturday Night Live is kind of the show that everybody

26:17

talks about when you're going to talk about women

26:19

in comedy. It's seen. It's a part plays

26:21

a big part in Cohen's book as well. Um,

26:24

but those first those original SNL

26:27

women, Gilda Radner, Jane Curtin, and Lorraine

26:29

Newman are just kind of held up as like

26:32

the end all be all, you know, the great trailblazers

26:35

of comedy, whereas

26:37

the show itself maybe is not as

26:39

welcoming. Yeah, because

26:43

especially for someone like Jane curtain like,

26:45

whose role commonly was to play

26:48

sort of a straight woman or an attractive

26:50

bimbo um and

26:53

not everyone on the show

26:56

thought that women were capable

26:58

of comedy either. And SNL

27:01

you know, I mean SNL has been in the news again

27:03

for not having

27:06

any women of color. Uh,

27:08

and so they recently hired two

27:10

African American lady writers

27:12

and an actress. So there's that. Yeah,

27:15

so shares the mata um became.

27:17

I mean, like it must have been so

27:19

intimidating for her to premiere

27:22

on Saturday Night Live because the entire

27:24

internet was talking about her being the first

27:26

black woman hired since Maya Rudolph

27:29

left what six years ago, And

27:32

it's almost like the entire weight

27:34

of black women in comedy was

27:36

placed upon her shoulders. Yeah.

27:38

Well, I mean it's the same thing that you said earlier about

27:41

like you know, women apparently can't, you

27:43

know. The stereotype is that women can't speak for

27:45

everyone, that only men can speak for everyone.

27:47

And it's the same thing that like, surely black

27:49

women can't speak for all people.

27:52

That's so strange, what a strange notion.

27:54

They're not only women, but they're black, and that is weird.

27:56

Yeah, I mean, they're even more marginalized.

27:58

We talk about having a

28:00

tough road to hoe in comedy,

28:03

not only you know, as women, but also

28:05

as women of color, where even

28:07

more so it's assumed that

28:09

there I guess, I don't know, like comedic

28:12

worldview is going to be too narrow or something

28:14

like that. But but which is mind

28:16

blowing of the fact that one of

28:18

the reasons why SNL started searching

28:21

desperately and quickly

28:23

for um black

28:26

comic is that Keenan

28:29

Thompson, who is you

28:31

know, a black comic on Saturday Night Live, basically

28:34

said, oh, listen, I'm not going to play anymore

28:36

black women on the show because I'm sick of it, fair

28:39

enough. But then he said, well, and they can't bring

28:41

any any women on too, you know, because

28:43

there aren't enough who are prepared

28:46

to do this, Which come

28:48

on, man, don't do that. Yeah,

28:50

I mean I didn't. I

28:52

read that. I didn't keep up with all the

28:55

discussions about it online. Was there

28:57

any possibility that he was trying to light a

28:59

fire under the SNL people

29:01

or was he honestly like there's not

29:03

enough good black comics. I think he could have stopped

29:05

at I'm not gonna dress and drag

29:08

because you don't have me.

29:10

Yeah, I think that because it's

29:13

like, hey, that's good. Oh wait, no, that's

29:15

um. But it's also significant too that they brought

29:18

on the Kendertooks and Leslie Jones as

29:20

the first two black women writers on the

29:23

show, because the writers

29:25

matter as well. It's not just the people on

29:27

stage, right like they One writer pointed

29:30

out that, you know, when they had Carrie Washington

29:32

host, it's like the only roles

29:35

they wrote for her were black women.

29:37

There were no kind of quote unquote race neutral

29:40

uh character. She was Oprah, she was Michelle

29:42

Obama. You know, she couldn't just be like a

29:45

woman being funny

29:47

and they didn't even do a scandal parody.

29:51

What yeah, that's that was That's

29:53

also just surprising.

29:55

Well, so, um, you know, to bring

29:58

this episode full circle, you know we mentioned Bridesmaids

30:01

at the top of the podcast being like the

30:03

one counterpoint that humanity

30:05

has against the women aren't funny

30:08

argument, And I

30:10

have to say, like, you know, as funny as Bridesmaids

30:12

was, as fantastic as Kristin Wig and

30:14

her whole crew is. Um, I'm

30:17

so over that

30:19

argument. I'm so over people holding

30:21

up Bridesmaids as like, oh no, wait, but look, women

30:23

are funny. No, no, screw you. Why

30:26

why does Bridesmaids have to be the

30:28

only sole example

30:30

of women being funny? Well, I think it's

30:32

significant that, if anything, it

30:35

put some dollars behind this

30:38

argument that not only are women funny,

30:40

but people will also pay to go see

30:43

them, because by its fifth week, it

30:45

ended up surpassing the um all

30:47

of the profits for Knocked Up.

30:50

Um. So I think that's good. But, like you,

30:52

I am tired of

30:55

and I'm sure Kristen Wigg probably is too

30:57

tired of Bridesmaids always

30:59

being held up and referenced as

31:01

it's like, okay, but yeah, we get it, but what's next.

31:04

Yeah, we gotta keep moving forward, and I think we

31:06

are. We So you

31:08

and I a you know, the the queens

31:11

of comedy. But I do think that things

31:13

are are moving forward, even

31:15

with like the higher of Seshir Zemata,

31:18

even with us

31:20

seeing more female driven

31:22

sitcoms um

31:25

and even just the existence of Tina

31:27

fe and Amy Poehler being at the places that

31:29

they are in there, you

31:32

know, Hollywood, not just comedy,

31:35

but but yeah, it's like the

31:38

Christopher Dgins essay and Bridesmaids

31:40

are just it's like tumbleweed, just like continually

31:42

rolling through. Yeah, I mean, I'm sick

31:44

of it, but I mean, you you make a point that it

31:47

is the money is key, because honestly,

31:49

like I think people in Hollywood would

31:52

film anything if they knew

31:54

that they would make a ton of money off of it.

31:56

And so it's it's

31:58

it is wonderful to have of women like Kristen

32:00

Wig and Amy Poehler and Tina Fey who

32:03

are just raking in the awards,

32:05

raking in the dough, proving that

32:08

men and women alike will sit down in front of the TV

32:10

screen of the movie screen and watch them. Yeah.

32:12

And I also want to give props to to people like

32:14

Mindy Kaling and even Lena

32:17

Dunham for i

32:19

don't know, providing more diversity in

32:21

what women on screen look like

32:24

as well. I think things are getting

32:26

better, um, but we definitely

32:29

need more of it. Oh and I

32:31

really want to shout out shameless plug

32:34

for something that I personally

32:36

love dearly. There is, speaking

32:38

of female driven sitcoms, a new sitcom

32:41

on Comedy Central called

32:43

broad City, produced by Amy Poehler and

32:46

starring to amazing,

32:48

hilarious, feminist, funny

32:51

women. You should totally check it out, and

32:53

and that hopefully, can you know, tie you over until

32:57

the Maker's documentary on women

32:59

in comedy comes out later this year. Yeah.

33:01

I can't wait to watch it, and I can't wait to hear

33:03

from people when they watch it. Yeah, and if you

33:05

want to learn more about

33:07

some other groundbreaking women that we didn't

33:09

have a chance to talk about, if you

33:12

head over to makers dot com,

33:14

you can watch interviews with Margaret Show,

33:16

Ellen de Generous, Zoey de Chanelle,

33:19

and one of also my personal favorites,

33:21

Dignataro. She's amazing. Yeah.

33:23

Those, I think all of the

33:26

Makers videos are so awesome. I

33:28

you know, I'm gushing, but I think

33:30

it's a great way to spend your time. Well,

33:32

it's inspiring to hear the stories

33:35

the of of these women's I

33:37

don't know career paths and how they

33:40

got through similar challenges that we

33:42

face, right because I think you know, whether it's

33:44

the first female firefighter

33:46

in New York, or whether it's a businesswoman, or

33:48

whether it is a comedian. You know, you

33:51

listen to what they say, what they had to overcome,

33:53

and you're like, oh my gosh, I can't imagine that. But

33:55

in so many respects, so much of that still

33:57

rings true. Yeah, yeah, So

34:00

I would definitely recommend going over to makers

34:03

dot com. Um, but we also want to

34:05

hear from listeners about your

34:07

favorite women in comedy because

34:09

I know that we by no means offered

34:12

a comprehensive list, So right

34:15

to us. Tweet us a mom stuff podcast,

34:17

hit us up on Facebook, let us know who

34:20

some of your favorites are, and maybe we can put

34:22

together a gallery or something

34:24

like that on stuff mob never

34:26

told you dot com to share

34:29

in all of the lady

34:31

funniness together. How's

34:33

how's that grammatically perfect?

34:35

Is that good? Awesome? Well, we've

34:37

got a couple of letters to share with you right

34:40

now. In fact, Black

34:43

on email here from Shelby about

34:46

are stuck on the Sidelines podcast.

34:48

She writes, Hi, Kristen and Caroline.

34:51

I'm a new listener to your podcast and

34:53

have come to believe we'd be great friends.

34:56

Excellent, Shelby, She writes, I

34:58

just listened to your Stuck on the Sidelines po podcast

35:00

and was surprised you didn't mention sports anchor

35:02

Aaron Andrews. She's super smart

35:04

and got her big startup on ESPN College

35:07

Game Day. She is, of course beautiful,

35:09

but also smart and holds her own among the many

35:11

men she works alongside in anchoring football games

35:13

and baseball games. Her latest postgame

35:16

interview with Sherman from the Seahawks is

35:18

one of the many examples that Aaron displays of

35:20

her composure and ability to deal with the loud and

35:22

obnoxious moments male athletes

35:24

can pose. She also says another

35:26

clip worth checking out is when coach Chip

35:29

Kelly of the Oregon Ducks came

35:31

to her defense and told a few college guys to

35:33

quote shut up when she was trying

35:35

to interview him. She was well respected by coaches

35:38

and athletes alike, and I

35:40

wanted to read Shelby's letter as

35:42

well because Aaron Andrews

35:44

has an interview that's come out in EL

35:46

magazine, which is kind of

35:49

just a condensed version of the Stuck on

35:51

the Sidelines podcast, in which she calls out

35:53

the double standards of being

35:56

a woman in football reporting, saying you know, yeah,

36:00

or about how I look, but no one asks

36:03

the male commentators how much their

36:05

suits cost, and she talks

36:07

about how big the suits are. He was like,

36:09

you know, those suits are huge. They call so much, they're

36:11

so big, and the ties so

36:13

shiny. So thanks Shelby, and hey, welcome

36:16

to the podcast. Much shiny, so

36:18

big. Wow. Um. I have a letter

36:20

from Sarah. This is actually kind of a throwback.

36:23

She just listened to our episode on

36:26

calling women or people crazy.

36:28

Um, so, Sarah writes, I've been

36:30

called crazy before. My friends have been called

36:32

crazy. I've even heard strangers being called

36:35

crazy in public places by boyfriends, husbands,

36:37

or other men, and it drives me, well

36:39

crazy. I want to thank you for talking

36:42

about this issue. I think many women don't

36:44

even realize how men gaslight them into

36:46

thinking their emotions and feelings are nonsensical.

36:48

I've had this conversation with friends before. Inevitably

36:51

there comes that epiphany and self reflection

36:53

to thinking back on the men who might have done

36:55

this in the past. Luckily, once you're

36:57

aware of this, it's much easier to blow it off and

36:59

realize it just a distraction and manipulation

37:01

tool used by men. After listening

37:04

to the podcast, I read an article that mentions

37:06

an interview with Taylor Swift and Glamour in

37:08

which she imparts some dating advice. Lo

37:10

and behold, she gives us some advice. I'm not being

37:12

called crazy. Specifically,

37:15

she's quoted as saying, never yell. Silence

37:17

speaks so much louder than screaming tantrums.

37:20

Never give anyone an excuse to say that you're

37:22

crazy. Although I agree that yelling

37:24

and screaming matches and relationships aren't anyone's

37:27

idea of a perfect union, the fact that

37:29

she avoids being called crazy at all costs

37:31

is troubling. Hopefully she does

37:33

express her opinions and doesn't back down from

37:35

her feelings without yelling, but I have a feeling

37:38

that it's probably not the message her young fans

37:40

will get from that quote. So

37:42

thank you for writing in, Sarah, and also

37:44

welcome to the podcast. And I'm a little

37:46

surprised that Taylor Swift didn't instead say,

37:49

like, never yell, just write all

37:51

of your feelings into a song that you'll

37:53

been broadcasts on the radio about out terrible

37:55

your boyfriend is maybe

37:59

and now also, uh, Taylor Swift is

38:01

gonna be stuck in my head for the rest of the day. But for

38:03

you, Yeah, that's okay, that's all right. Thanks

38:05

to everybody who's written into us, though Mom Stuff

38:08

Discovery dot com is where you can send us all of

38:10

your letters. You can also

38:12

find all of our social media links,

38:15

videos, podcasts, and blog

38:17

posts over at the greatest website

38:19

ever launched, Stuff Mom Never

38:22

Told You dot com.

38:27

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38:29

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38:39

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