0:03

Welcome to stuff Mom Never told

0:05

you. From House top Works dot Com.

0:12

Hello to Welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

0:14

and I'm Caroline and it is oscar

0:17

week on the podcast. That's

0:20

right. Last time, we talked about sort

0:22

of the history and evolution of women

0:24

in the director's chair, and

0:27

that was fascinating. We learned so much

0:29

incredible history that I frankly had

0:31

no idea about. But we also

0:34

wanted to focus today's episode on

0:36

those trailblazing, groundbreaking

0:38

African American directors who were

0:40

out there, both who laid the groundwork

0:42

back hundred hundred years ago,

0:44

but also the women who are working so

0:47

hard in the industry today. Yeah, because

0:49

there was one issue with Monday's

0:52

episode that came out was that, yeah,

0:54

we were talking about history, but we were also covering

0:57

three white women. And while

1:00

there are barriers unique

1:02

to females in particular who

1:04

want to direct, there are even more

1:07

barriers in place for women

1:09

of color who want to direct. And

1:12

before we get into the rather

1:15

depressing statistics, to be honest, I

1:17

just want to establish the fact that yes,

1:19

they are out there, they are making their

1:21

films despite these barriers, and

1:24

there are names that you should

1:26

know, and I tweeted a friend

1:28

of mine, Lauren Shacker, who

1:30

is in l A, who is a

1:32

totally badass feminist making

1:35

films, and I asked her for suggestions

1:37

of women of color directors we should give

1:39

shout outs to. And the

1:41

response from her Twitter followers

1:44

and other women in Hollywood making

1:46

films was overwhelming.

1:48

And these aren't exclusively African

1:50

American women in the director's

1:52

seat, which we're going to focus on in this episode.

1:54

But just to tea things off, we wanted to share some

1:57

of the names that we got from Twitter.

2:00

Yeah, we heard about women like Nima Barnett,

2:02

Milicent Shelton, Janasa

2:04

Bravo, Debbie Allen, Mina

2:07

Schum, Alice Woo, Julie

2:09

Dash, who will talk about more in this episode.

2:11

Yeah, I gotta tell you, Caroline, I had a real

2:14

celebrity feeling moment on Twitter when Julie

2:16

Dash retweeted our tweet. We

2:19

connected to Julie Jash And if you don't know who Julie

2:22

Dashes, you will understand in a few minutes why

2:24

that was such a big moment. And

2:26

that wasn't all. There were even more names, Yeah,

2:29

like Tan You're right, Alma Assante, who were

2:31

about to mention Sa Ray, Darnell,

2:33

Martin, Suki and Lee and Marta

2:35

Cunningham just to mention a few

2:38

Yeah, and we're gonna gather all of

2:40

these up into gallery

2:43

on stuff I've never told you dot Com with links

2:45

to IMDb pages and films,

2:48

so that if you didn't catch all

2:50

of those names, don't worry, you

2:52

will be able to find them on our website.

2:55

So here's where we get

2:57

to the not so fun facts that

3:00

yes, these women absolutely exist. They're

3:02

doing incredible work. But in

3:05

our episode on Monday, we highlighted

3:07

how there are in Hollywood

3:10

about fifteen point two four male

3:13

directors to every female director. Right,

3:15

we pointed out that it was fifteen men and a stations

3:18

yes and point two four chins. But

3:21

then if you narrow it down to

3:23

female directors of color, the number

3:26

gets even tinier. And

3:29

speaking to the root director Ama Sante

3:31

and she she directed the movie Bell, which

3:33

I went and saw when it came out in theaters.

3:35

She pointed out that black women makeup just one

3:38

percent of directors over

3:40

all, one percent, and

3:42

consider this too. In the nineties,

3:45

only twenty eight films were

3:48

directed by black women. Twenty feature films,

3:50

I should say only three of those were

3:52

released nationally, and only one of those

3:55

had a major Hollywood release. So

3:57

when we're talking about barriers in terms of women

4:00

on making, this is

4:02

a group that honestly probably faces

4:04

the most challenges in terms of getting

4:07

a film made, especially in

4:10

Hollywood. Yeah, but this doesn't mean that

4:12

there aren't some amazing women out there. Obviously,

4:14

as we've been trying to establish, You've got women

4:16

like Maya Angelou who directed Down in the

4:18

Delta. She had actually, as we'll talk about earlier, had

4:21

wanted to direct a previous screenplay that she'd

4:24

written, but she didn't get the opportunity. You've

4:26

got Gina Prince Bythewood who directed

4:28

Love and Basketball, which was produced by

4:30

Spike Lee, and Casey Lemons

4:32

who directed Eve's Bayou, which

4:34

is definitely going into my Netflix

4:37

queue. And then we have Cheryl Danier who

4:39

directed the film Watermelon Woman, and

4:41

Dannie is actually the first openly gay black

4:44

female director, and as well,

4:46

talk about a more detail in just a minute. The

4:49

modern history of black

4:51

women directing films is

4:54

rather recent, but what

4:56

a lot of people might not know is that

4:58

even in those early days

5:01

of film, there were

5:04

black female trailblazers

5:06

like the women we were talking about in

5:09

Monday's episode, like the Alice Ki Blaches.

5:12

Yeah, and their goal was not only

5:14

to direct movies

5:17

be involved in the film industry,

5:19

but also to really put forth an effort to present

5:22

a more accurate portrayal of the

5:24

lives of African Americans. That

5:26

they weren't one dimensional characters who

5:28

were all servants or maids, that

5:30

they had just as rich and inner

5:32

life as any other character on screen.

5:35

And so a lot of this information is coming from media

5:37

messages, what film, TV and popular

5:39

music teach us about race um.

5:42

And we also cannot emphasize

5:44

enough how great of a resource Columbia

5:46

University's Women Film Pioneers

5:49

Project is. It's online and all

5:51

of the women were going to talk about are also profiled

5:54

over there. And the first one we want

5:56

to talk about is Truscy Stouters,

5:58

who the Black Press

6:01

named her the first black woman

6:03

director with the film A Woman's

6:05

Error, which was distributed by the

6:07

Afro American Film Exhibitors

6:10

Company based in Kansas City, Missouri,

6:12

and she also wrote the screenplay.

6:15

And what's interesting is that profile

6:17

points out that in the nine City

6:19

Directory city directory for Kansas

6:21

City, Missouri, and if you do any sort of family

6:23

or history research, you realize how important those city

6:26

directories are to look back at. But they listed

6:28

her as a maid, and so I

6:30

think it's so interesting also to look at the career

6:32

path that these women take and still today that

6:34

these women take to get behind the

6:37

camera. But then that leads us to Eloy's

6:39

King Patrick just she was an independent

6:42

businesswoman who also produced films

6:45

with her husband, so there's that same

6:47

husband wife team connection that we also talked

6:49

about in the first episode. But her films

6:51

had a super strong moral bent for

6:54

the purpose of social uplift. For instance,

6:56

her crime drama Verdict Not Guilty

6:59

is oft screen by the inn Double a CP

7:02

and the interestingly titled

7:04

hell Bound Train preached

7:06

temperance for her audience well,

7:08

and thinking about Verdict

7:11

Not Guilty in today's

7:13

context with all of the national

7:15

conversations going on regarding race

7:18

relations. That was a film that she was

7:20

making in the silent era about

7:23

the criminal justice system and race.

7:25

So films that are still relevant

7:27

today and just focused

7:29

more on writing and editing than actual

7:32

directing. But she's still a really

7:34

important figure who is also acknowledged

7:36

by the Library of Congress. Yeah,

7:38

they're actually putting in an effort, and I don't know

7:40

how far along they are in these efforts. I'd love to

7:42

hear an update if anybody has one. But they have

7:45

been working to edit and restore her films,

7:47

which basically were in shreds.

7:49

I mean, you know, we've we talked about the films

7:52

of the women in our first episode,

7:54

that they were also damaged and super

7:57

hard to find, these early films, and

8:00

that some of them were founded in a state sale

8:02

in a trunk, and so you can just imagine what

8:04

film from this era is like if it's not cared

8:07

for well. And apparently Verdict Not Guilty

8:09

was screened so often that

8:11

that's one of the reasons why it's in tatters,

8:13

because it was just used so so many

8:16

times. But then we also have Maria

8:18

P. Williams, who was a social

8:21

activist. Not surprising. I mean, it seems

8:23

like all of these women have activism

8:26

in their blood. And she wrote the pamphlet

8:28

My Work and Public Sentiment in

8:30

nineteen sixteen, so she was already

8:32

getting her voice out there. And

8:35

she and her husband again that

8:37

that marriage tie right there. They operated

8:39

a motion picture theater and we're instrumental

8:42

with the Western Film Producing Company

8:45

and Booking Exchange, and so that kind

8:47

of got her into this

8:49

burgeoning industry. Yeah, and in Nree

8:52

she produced, distributed, and

8:55

acted in her own film, The

8:57

Flames of Wrath, and so well, she

8:59

is an ex ly a lady

9:01

director. She's still an incredibly

9:03

important figure. And it is important to point

9:05

out also that the term producer was sort of used

9:08

ambiguously back in those days. So basically

9:10

I think it's fine to count her as a trailblazing

9:13

filmmaker. Absolutely. I mean, at the

9:15

time, the Norfolk Journal and Guide

9:17

hailed her as the first quote

9:20

colored woman film producer in the United

9:22

States, which clearly was an exciting

9:25

moment, so we wanted

9:27

to We thought it was important to establish

9:29

that, yes, there is that early

9:32

history right there. Black women have been

9:34

working in filmmaking since

9:37

the beginning of that technology.

9:40

But here's the thing that the big

9:42

difference that jumped out to me in us

9:44

talking about those early white female directors

9:47

and this group of black directors

9:50

you still have. Even with white female

9:52

directors, there is definitely a gap

9:55

in Hollywood, particularly post World

9:57

War Two, But when it comes to

9:59

black female directors, there's nothing

10:02

in Hollywood. You have no Dorothy Arsner

10:04

or Ida Lupino equivalent in

10:06

those earlier days of Hollywood, because

10:09

it's not until the late nineteen

10:11

eighties that black women

10:13

even get behind the camera in mainstream

10:15

Hollywood, right, Yeah, there is there

10:18

is a line between the

10:20

independent films and the documentaries that women

10:22

of color putting out and actually getting to

10:24

be behind the camera in Hollywood,

10:27

like you said, And so it's interesting

10:29

to look at the route that women take

10:32

to becoming successful directors. And

10:34

that's something that Melvin Donaldson

10:36

writes about in his book Black

10:39

Directors in Hollywood, specifically

10:41

about how black women filmmakers

10:43

have consistently, either

10:45

by choice or by you know,

10:48

financial necessity, had to go the

10:50

independent route and often gravitated

10:52

toward documentary filmmaking for

10:55

that reason. And I mean there

10:57

was also a certain appeal to particularly

11:00

when it comes to documentary filmmaking,

11:02

because they quote provide

11:05

an opportunity for inscribing the untold

11:07

accounts of black public and private

11:09

figures in the historical record. Going

11:12

back again to those early

11:14

when we talked about who weren't just making

11:16

films for the sake of making films, but making

11:19

films I could accurately portray black

11:21

life and black community. Yeah, and you get

11:23

Jesse Maple in the early eighties,

11:25

who was driven by this need and desire

11:27

to present more positive images of the

11:30

African American community. And

11:32

so in nine one she becomes

11:34

the first black female director of an independent

11:36

feature length film called Will

11:39

and it focuses around a girl's basketball

11:41

coach who has a heroine problem, but who is also

11:43

mentoring a twelve year old boy. And it was shot

11:46

on just a twelve thousand dollar budget.

11:48

And what's so interesting when you talk about the roots

11:50

that people take to to get where they're

11:53

going. She actually didn't start her

11:55

career in film until after she worked

11:57

as a bacteriologist, and it

11:59

was that desire to want to inject positive

12:02

images of black women and

12:04

black men into the media that that really drove

12:06

her. But she was also the first black woman to

12:09

join the Filmmakers Union, which is interesting.

12:11

And she was highly influential in

12:14

black cinema, starting twenty West

12:16

Home of Black Cinema in her basement in Harlem

12:19

in the nineteen eighties. That showcased

12:21

the newest in black film, and she would

12:23

brag that they showed Spike Lee films where

12:25

anyone else showed Spike Lee films. But

12:28

looking outside of the independent route

12:30

and looking to Hollywood, there's

12:33

such a dearth of black female

12:35

directors because of a lot of institutional

12:38

factors that come up. Obviously,

12:42

talented black female directors exist,

12:44

but they're likelier to quote

12:47

sidestep the frustrating studio

12:49

system and complete low budget

12:51

projects. Remember, people, it always

12:54

goes back to the money, but also

12:56

that's usually the go to factor in terms

12:59

of white female directors not

13:01

getting these larger Hollywood

13:03

scale projects. But there's an added

13:05

wrinkle when it comes to black

13:07

female filmmakers that it's the money, but also

13:10

the content too, of people

13:12

being like, well, I don't know if these stories need

13:14

to be told about these black communities.

13:17

Yeah, whether they need to be told, or whether they'll translate

13:20

to a larger audience and national

13:22

audience that is white or an international

13:24

audience that might not catch everything

13:26

if it's lost in translation. Yeah, I mean I'm

13:29

not saying that, I'm saying that those are a lot of the producers

13:31

and studio systems concerns. Yeah,

13:34

that was my impression of the studios right, talking

13:36

like this very stiff. But

13:38

then as Melvin Donaldson writes about again

13:40

in black directors in Hollywood in

13:42

the nineties and the very late

13:45

eighties, but really in the nineties, some

13:47

black women directors start getting a few

13:50

more opportunities to

13:53

work, and I mean this is this

13:55

is again in contrast to white women

13:57

directors who again lots of barriers,

13:59

but still had more more

14:02

access. And he attributes

14:05

it to a few factors. Starting

14:07

in the nineteen eighties. He mentions how black

14:10

male directors kind of paved the way just

14:12

in the sense of telling

14:15

the stories of people of color and

14:17

establishing that, hey, this is a valid and

14:19

important and also successful

14:22

financially form of entertainment,

14:24

right. And you also have the rise

14:26

in black female authors being published

14:29

in the mid seventies onward and

14:31

then bringing those literary characters alive

14:33

on screen. For example, we

14:35

had Lorraine Hansberry and a Raisin

14:37

in the Sun, Terry McMillan and waiting

14:39

to Exhale, Alice Walker and the color Purple.

14:41

Of course, a more recently Chimamanda

14:44

Negozi Adici and Americana,

14:47

Yeah, which I can't already can't wait to see.

14:49

And in addition to the

14:52

importance of greater visibility

14:54

of black women in front of the screen,

14:57

both the big screen and the small screen.

14:59

It's all about this process

15:01

of normalizing. It's just wild

15:03

to me that we're talking about this in the context

15:06

of only the nineteen nineties,

15:08

not the eighteen nineties, the nineteen

15:10

nineties. So why don't we talk

15:12

about some more contemporary trail

15:14

blazers and women who were

15:17

breaking through those barriers to make

15:19

their films. Yeah, well, you

15:21

know, mentioning Maya Angela again.

15:23

She is the first black woman to have a feature

15:26

film screenplay produced with

15:28

nineteen seventy two Georgia Georgia,

15:31

and she had wanted to direct it but didn't

15:34

and she ended up being unhappy with the final

15:36

product, and she had to wait to sit

15:38

in the director's chair until down

15:41

in the Delta. And she has a great quote about, hey,

15:43

books are my world, movies or your world.

15:46

If I'm doing something that seems odd

15:48

or wrong, please pull me aside

15:50

and we'll go for a walk together and you can tell

15:52

me that way. Yeah. I had fun

15:54

google imaging images of

15:57

Maya Angelou and the director's chair. Um,

16:00

and it's as that's exactly

16:02

what you think. It looks like. It's my Angelo and

16:04

the director's she looks like she's having a good

16:06

time. I didn't realize though that she was a director.

16:09

And also, I mean, you know, the first black woman

16:11

to have a feature film screenplay produced.

16:13

Yeah, who knew. Well, that's why

16:15

we're here, Kristen, That's why we're talking about this today

16:18

exactly, hopefully spreading some knowledge.

16:21

Um. Then there's the amazing us and Policy.

16:23

She's the first black woman to direct a major Hollywood

16:25

studio feature film. The movie

16:28

A Dry White Season in nine nine.

16:30

It's about apartheid and it's starring the

16:32

A listers Donald Sutherland, Marlon

16:34

Brando, and Susan Surrandon. Brando actually

16:37

came out of retirement to work

16:40

in this film, and he ended up getting his

16:42

final Oscar nomination for his role

16:45

in her film. And Policy

16:47

is the only woman to ever

16:49

direct Marlon Brando, which is pretty

16:51

interesting and other moment of

16:54

celebrity Twitter excitement.

16:56

She also weighed in on the tweet

16:58

about women of color directors.

17:01

Yes, yes, so I mean that right

17:03

there. The fact that that she and Julie

17:06

Dash were hopping on board of this conversation

17:08

shows just how much activism

17:10

there still is around this specific

17:13

issue. Um, and talking again

17:16

about her route into filmmaking,

17:18

it started pretty early. She was born

17:21

on the island of Martinique and made her first

17:23

film in France at seventeen.

17:26

Yeah, and in three her first

17:28

feature film, Sugarcane Alley, was

17:31

presented at the Venice Film Festival and

17:33

she became the first black artist

17:35

to win a Caesar and a Silver Lion

17:37

Award at Venice. And when it comes

17:40

to the importance of a Dry White Season,

17:42

not only was it groundbreaking in the sense if

17:44

he was making it, but also its content

17:47

it helped bring attention to apartheid

17:49

and genocide happening in South Africa.

17:52

So I mean, clearly that just

17:54

goes to show the importance of getting

17:56

these new and diverse perspectives

17:59

because they're the retellers. Yeah.

18:01

Well, now let's talk about Julie Dash, who we've mentioned

18:03

at the top of the podcast. And people are probably like, Okay, you've

18:06

mentioned Julie Dash like five times, what is

18:08

the date? Why are you so obsessed with Julie

18:10

Dash. Well, Julie

18:12

Dash listener friends, was

18:14

an independent filmmaker who

18:17

ended up making the very first general

18:19

theatrical release directed by a

18:21

black woman. About that for a title, Yeah,

18:23

that Daughters of the

18:26

Dust, which explored the complexities

18:28

of a black family with a black

18:30

female protagonist, and it was shot for eight

18:32

hundred thousand dollars on St. Helena

18:35

Island off the coast of South Carolina,

18:37

and it I this is

18:39

another film that I'm adding to my list of things

18:41

that I have to go see because it sounds

18:44

just incredibly fascinating. The way that it presents

18:46

this multi generational look

18:48

at this African American family, and

18:50

the technique that it uses to tell the story

18:53

is so interesting, focusing on the voice of an

18:55

unborn child to sort of help bridge

18:57

those generations and look into the past

19:00

where the families come from. It also look into the

19:02

future and where they're going. Yeah, And

19:04

in Monday's episode on those

19:07

pioneering Hollywood directors, we also

19:09

mentioned at the top of that episode

19:11

the importance of sun Dance, the Sunday's

19:13

film festival for showcasing

19:16

um filmmakers of color and

19:18

female filmmakers, and that was where

19:21

Daughters of the Dust first caught people's

19:24

attention. And in terms of film

19:26

critique and analysis, Donaldson

19:29

writes that Dash reveals what no

19:31

other Hollywood filmmaker had done in

19:33

the past namely that black

19:35

women possessed physical and spiritual

19:37

beauty as well as psychological

19:40

diversity. Yeah, and

19:42

it's those representations that

19:45

uh Dash is talking about in Daughters

19:47

of the Dust when she has this quote about

19:49

how it affects men, male male

19:52

viewers in the audience, and she says,

19:54

I think that for a lot of white males and black

19:56

males too, they get to go there

19:58

and assume the person alley of the characters

20:01

on screen. A lot of people

20:03

couldn't do that for Daughters of the Dust. I mean,

20:05

I've seen men run out of

20:07

the theater, and I think that's so funny.

20:10

She's she's presenting an incredibly important

20:12

voice and incredibly important perspective,

20:15

but talking about how some members of

20:17

my audience just can't handle it well.

20:19

And that goes to to considering

20:22

why it is important to talk about

20:25

female directors and that influence because

20:28

what is on screen is reflected on what's

20:31

behind screen. And we talked

20:33

to all the time about the importance of like representation

20:35

and visibility and a lot of times, yes, if

20:38

if films are being exclusively made

20:40

by white men a lot

20:42

of the times, then a lot of the times,

20:45

those are the stories that end up being

20:47

told, and not that there's anything wrong with

20:49

those stories, but hey, you know, we

20:51

like we like to see ourselves, all of ourselves

20:53

reflected on screen. Yeah.

20:56

But Dash points out to andy week

20:58

dot Com that this film um and

21:00

it's incredibly important perspective, ultimately

21:03

proved a little bit limiting. She says

21:05

that Daughters of the Dust, which

21:07

was selected for preservation in the National

21:09

Film Registry in two thousand four, by the way,

21:12

gave her a reputation as an

21:14

auteur who specializes in the cinema

21:17

of ideas not words,

21:19

making the chances of her doing a sophomore feature

21:21

close to nil. So basically, here she's

21:23

presenting this incredibly important film with these perspectives

21:26

that are really not represented

21:28

anywhere else, and people were like, Oh,

21:30

are you just gonna make movies like that?

21:32

This is so artsy? Yeah, okay,

21:35

well never mind. And she hasn't made another

21:37

theatrical release since her

21:39

made for TV film The Rosa Park

21:41

Story did earn her a nomination from

21:43

the Director's Guild for Outstanding Directorial

21:46

Achievement in Movies for Television,

21:48

which yet again was a first for

21:51

a black woman. And she has

21:53

been so vocal about

21:55

the need for more black female directors.

21:57

Obviously, she's active on Twitter as well.

22:00

Um, So, even though she hasn't

22:03

yet had that sophomore film

22:05

after Daughters of the Dust, she has certainly

22:08

been active. Yeah. Absolutely.

22:10

And then you know, speaking of first,

22:13

that leads us to Darnel Martin, who was the first

22:15

black woman to write and direct for a major

22:17

studio and her

22:20

critically acclaimed I Like It Like That

22:22

came out from Columbia Pictures, and

22:25

she really didn't like the

22:27

fact that during the promotion of the film,

22:29

people were paying so much attention to the

22:31

fact that she was not only a woman,

22:33

but a woman of color, that that seemed

22:36

to be like the huge selling

22:38

point almost in the marketing for it.

22:40

And it's interesting that, you know, she also

22:42

directed the film Cadillac Records a couple of years

22:45

ago that had Adrian Brody and Beyonce and it. Um

22:47

but you know, her gender and ethnicity really

22:50

didn't receive nearly the same

22:52

attention that they did when her film

22:54

came out. And perhaps

22:56

that's a good sign. Yeah, not that

22:58

not that attention shouldn't be called to it, of

23:01

course, but like, hey,

23:03

I'm a director, she doesn't have to preface

23:05

it by saying, I am a woman of color

23:07

director. Yeah. I mean, this is something

23:09

that comes up a lot on stuff I've never

23:12

told you, especially when we're talking about women

23:14

in traditionally male dominated industries,

23:16

where it's like, just let me be a

23:18

doctor, just let me be a director, just let

23:21

me be a construction worker.

23:23

It doesn't always have to be qualified, and that is

23:26

that will be probably a sign of progress

23:28

when this episode is just about

23:30

directors, right exactly. But

23:33

then that brings us to Angela Robinson,

23:35

who is the highest grossing black

23:37

female director for not

23:40

the most artistic or

23:42

critically acclaimed film. It was Herbie Fully

23:44

Loaded, which did gross one million

23:47

dollars worldwide on a fifty million dollar

23:49

budget, so and not the Live and

23:51

even though as people point out, yeah,

23:53

Herbie not the most impression

23:56

that that's not a film for the ages what

23:59

however, it is notable that this was

24:01

the first time a black woman was at the

24:03

helm of such a huge franchise

24:06

film. And I think this is an incredibly

24:08

important point to bring up because

24:12

not that we need the proof, but here's

24:14

proof that a woman and a woman of

24:16

color at that can helm

24:18

a project that draws a

24:21

bajillion eyeballs that people

24:23

will want to go see a film that has

24:25

this great appeal regardless of who's

24:27

in the director's chair. If it's good, it's good and people

24:29

are gonna want to see it, and it it shouldn't matter

24:32

that the director is a woman of color. Well,

24:34

and at this point too, we've gone down the checklist

24:37

of all of these first of women of color

24:39

proving again and again like, yes, I can successfully

24:42

direct a fantastic film.

24:45

What more do we need? And

24:48

the answer is more women

24:50

of color directing films. And we're going

24:52

to talk more about that when we come right

24:54

back from a quick break and

24:58

now back to the show. So

25:02

in the first half of the podcast, we focused

25:05

a lot on the women Trailblazers,

25:07

the first for African

25:10

American female directors,

25:12

and there are a lot of incredible work

25:14

has been done, an incredible foundation has

25:16

been laid. But when

25:18

we look at Hollywood, because keep

25:21

in mind the differences between going the independent

25:23

route and Hollywood where the big bucks

25:25

are, where you don't have to, as some filmmakers

25:27

have done, sell your own possessions

25:30

just so that you can make a film, because you're that passionate

25:32

about it. There is still such

25:35

a dearth of black women

25:37

directors. Yeah. Writing about this over at

25:39

the Griolmonia Brown says that

25:41

since Julie dash break

25:43

there of Daughters of the Dust, there have been

25:46

only ten Hollywood films directed

25:48

by black women released nationally

25:51

and with a decent enough marketing

25:53

campaign to actually assist with its

25:55

promotion. Yeah. And Brown goes

25:57

on to talk about um attending a panel

25:59

that was filmed by black women directors

26:02

name of Burnett, Leslie Harris, Bridget

26:04

Davis, an Tania Hamilton's and

26:07

in answering that question of well, why

26:09

aren't there more women directors, why

26:11

aren't black women's movies being made,

26:13

they attributed the problem more to

26:16

content than funding.

26:19

That it starts even even

26:21

even before the financing issue, with just

26:24

the story itself and the characters and

26:26

the communities that the stories are examining.

26:28

Right, so producers and studios

26:30

just being afraid that the

26:33

voice in the film, or the tone of the film or

26:35

the content will not attract enough eyeballs.

26:38

Yeah, if we think that like a female ensemble

26:41

led film is considered niche just

26:43

considered taking down a few more,

26:45

not just for that of film starring

26:48

maybe a black female ensemble, like,

26:50

oh no, no, not enough people will be interested

26:52

in that. Certainly, certainly there aren't

26:54

enough people in the world who would be interested

26:57

in what black women have to say. And

26:59

that was thing that a claimed

27:02

director de Reese experienced

27:04

with her film Pariah,

27:06

which is about um a lesbians

27:09

sort of coming out process

27:11

that came out in two thousand eleven, which

27:13

was hailed by people including Meryl

27:16

Street being like, this woman is incredibly

27:18

talented, she needs to make more films.

27:20

But when it comes to Pariah, for instance, it

27:23

was considered quote too black and

27:25

too gay for Hollywood financing.

27:27

But which gets to that

27:29

content issue of like, oh, I don't know, two

27:32

things we could probably have maybe pretty gay,

27:34

maybe pretty black, but both of those I

27:36

don't know. Yeah, that's that's way too niche

27:38

because we don't have any people like that in the world.

27:41

Make another Transformers instead. But

27:43

I think it is important to get back to Julie Dash and her

27:45

perspective on the whole thing, considering she is

27:47

such a big advocate and agitator

27:50

for women of color to get behind the

27:53

camera. She had a great quote in Indie

27:55

Week talking about how, hey, there

27:57

are not enough of us let's say that they're

28:00

not enough of us working. We exist, We're

28:02

here, they're here. There

28:04

are just not enough of us working. We need

28:06

work and would love to have the same opportunities

28:09

everyone else has, especially when

28:11

it comes to telling all kinds of stories,

28:14

not just stories about African Americans,

28:16

but all kinds of stories. And

28:18

that's important too to keep in mind.

28:20

I do think that these women

28:23

get pigeonholed by their

28:25

ethnicity of people thinking, oh, well, you're

28:27

a black woman, so you're really only gonna want to tell

28:29

stories about other black women. Right when

28:32

you think about it, I mean, you have

28:35

you have white men telling the stories of

28:38

women of all colors

28:40

all the time. You know clearly their

28:43

gender and race is not inhibiting

28:45

them in the storytelling process.

28:47

Um, so it's greed that she points

28:50

that out. I'm a Sante who

28:52

side note on a BAFTA for her debut

28:54

film, A Way of Life. She was quoted

28:56

in the Roots saying, we I

28:59

E. Black female to rectors basically

29:01

do not register on the scale when it

29:03

comes to black women. We are under one percent

29:05

of directors overall. It's tough

29:07

being a woman of color director because I am

29:09

either the color or the shape that

29:11

some people are comfortable with seeing in their

29:14

directors, and that makes it

29:16

hard. Yeah, and I thought she had

29:18

a really good point beyond the

29:20

women of color issue, just about femininity

29:23

and womanhood in general. She says, the

29:25

fact that I use my femininity as a tool

29:27

and not a hindrance is not always

29:29

comfortable to people, to be honest with you, but I

29:31

believe it's about creating a track record

29:34

that is undeniable, and so in other words,

29:36

like who cares you know what

29:38

I look like. The fact that I am so

29:40

incredibly capable and I have this

29:43

particular set of skills means

29:45

that I can helm and helm

29:47

a great film but also tell a great story. And

29:49

it's absolutely worth noting that this

29:52

is part of the broader problem

29:55

for women directors, even if

29:57

they have had a theatrical release,

29:59

even if they've had their one Hollywood film,

30:02

it's far less common for female

30:04

directors to get their second

30:06

or third chance for a theatrical

30:08

release period, regardless of the color

30:10

of their skin. Yeah, you kind of have to be a Catherine

30:13

Bigelow. Basically, you're going to be an exception

30:15

to a rule if you are a Catherine Bigelow.

30:18

Yeah, I mean and also think about two And

30:20

we've talked about her on the podcast before, um,

30:23

and she is absolutely

30:25

important. But it's also interesting to think about

30:27

the content of her films and it's

30:29

more kind of war zone tougher, shoot

30:32

them up kinds of stories, something

30:34

that can appeal to a

30:36

white male audience essentially. But

30:39

now we got to talk about the game changer,

30:41

and I have a feeling the podcast listeners have been waiting

30:43

for us to mention her name

30:46

since they probably saw the title of this podcast,

30:48

because yes, she inspired this

30:51

whole thing, and she has gotten a lot of

30:53

conversations started of late

30:55

about black female directors.

30:57

And that is the one and only Eva

31:00

du Vernet. And she became

31:02

the first black female director nominated

31:05

for a Golden Globe for Best Director

31:07

for her film Selma. She

31:09

was beat by, of course, Richard link Later

31:11

for Boyhood, but Spike

31:13

Lee for his film Do the Right Thing and Steve

31:16

McQueen for Twelve Years of Slave were the only

31:18

other black directors ever nominated

31:20

for a Golden Globe. Yeah, and also

31:23

not bad for someone who

31:26

is on their third film and also

31:28

after making a mid career switch from

31:30

being in being a film publicist,

31:32

to being like, hey, you know what, I want to actually make

31:35

these films, and

31:37

she clearly has a knack

31:39

for it. I mean, Selma is not the first time d

31:42

Rene has made headlines. Her second

31:44

feature, Middle of Nowhere, also

31:46

attracted rave reviews, also

31:48

attracted successful sales, and won

31:51

her the Best Director award at sun Dance,

31:53

which was huge. That was also

31:56

a first. She was the first black female director to ever

31:58

snag that award. Yeah, and her first

32:00

feature film, I Will Follow, came

32:02

out inn So this is all pretty

32:04

rapid fire. I mean, she's she seems

32:06

to be a prolific filmmaker at

32:09

this point so far. Um. Her

32:11

actual directorial debut, however, was a

32:13

two thousand eight documentary This is the Life.

32:15

And I think I think that's interesting. I think that goes

32:17

back to what we established at the top of the

32:19

podcast as far as people

32:22

who have different perspectives, not just women

32:24

of color directors, but women directors

32:26

or really any person of color. They

32:29

almost have to enter certain industries,

32:31

certain fields through an alternative

32:33

route in order to get funding

32:36

or to get the eyeballs on their projects. And

32:38

so she, like many other women

32:40

directors of color, started out in the

32:42

documentary Field and quickly

32:44

going back though to Sundance in the importance

32:47

of that platform, particularly for

32:49

UH filmmakers of color and

32:51

women filmmakers. That so,

32:54

when Julie dash was

32:56

bringing Daughters of the Dust to sun Dance back

32:59

in the day A, that was when

33:01

Richard link Later was bringing Slackers

33:04

as well. So I mean, this is clearly you

33:06

know, she was up against some some tough competition.

33:09

But then link Letter comes swoops

33:11

back and again beating

33:13

out du Vernay years down the road

33:15

for Best Director at the Golden Globes

33:18

for Boyhood, which is a film I really

33:20

enjoyed a lot as well. Um, but

33:22

we're not here to talk about Richard link Later, and

33:25

obviously we need to talk about the Oscar snub

33:27

that everybody's been talking about. With Duvernet

33:30

and her film Salma. She

33:32

does talk about how this

33:35

not being nominated for Best Director

33:37

was something that she expected. She

33:39

was talking about this with Entertainment Weekly, and

33:41

you know, she said it would be lovely

33:44

and when it happens to whomever it happens to, it

33:46

will certainly have meaning. But she knew it wouldn't

33:48

be her. She says, it's not me being

33:51

humble, it's math. And so

33:53

when you look at that math, we have to

33:55

look at how the

33:57

nominating branch, the director nominating

34:00

branch of the Academy is

34:03

uh, male, white.

34:06

Yeah, I mean, directors nominate directors,

34:08

actors nominate actors. And

34:12

I mean and that's so the cards are kind of stacked

34:14

against I mean, she she said outright, she was like, I don't

34:16

have any allies within

34:18

that group. That group is outside of

34:21

my network. And she also, though

34:23

did not play politics

34:26

publicly, bristling at negative

34:28

critiques of President

34:31

Johnson's portrayal in Selma,

34:33

where he is highly resistant to signing

34:36

the Voting Rights Act, and there was a

34:38

lot of you know, or grumbling about

34:40

that, and she came out

34:42

on Twitter and was like, you know, basically

34:44

saying, this is ridiculous. Um,

34:47

you know, historical revisions just period

34:49

happened in in any of these kinds

34:52

of films. But she was getting particularly

34:54

lambassad for and she she had nothing

34:57

to do with it. And there were some members

34:59

of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Science

35:02

who were like, you know what, I didn't like that. I

35:04

really didn't like that. She should have she should

35:06

have played the politics better. Well, you

35:08

know, the speaking of the Academy, they do

35:11

have their first black female president,

35:13

Cheryl Boone Isaacs, and

35:16

that though did not stop

35:18

one anonymous Academy member

35:20

from making a comment to Entertainment

35:23

Weekly about quote, it's

35:25

almost like, because she is African American,

35:27

we should have made her one of our nominees. I

35:29

think that's racist. Look at what we did

35:31

with twelve Years and that makes me

35:33

like roll my eyes so hard that they fall out of my

35:35

head, because there seems

35:38

to be a really common perception

35:41

that just because Twelve Years of Slave

35:43

was recognized for the

35:45

filmmaking and the acting and the directing,

35:48

that that should somehow be enough,

35:51

right, and then last year was

35:53

the was the year for a black director?

35:55

Yeah, basically basically. But also that

35:57

leads us back to that whole discussion

35:59

of but is that the only story

36:01

that we allow black directors

36:04

and writers to tell and black actors

36:06

to portray only

36:08

stories about slavery? What about

36:11

just modern stories about humanity?

36:14

You know? And you know, going back to Julie

36:16

Dash's film Daughters of the Dusk, there

36:18

are other stories to tell that aren't

36:20

just about slavery. And it

36:23

does seem though like Durna

36:25

is taking it completely into stride. First of all, she

36:27

wasn't expected if she were even

36:29

nominated. She knew she was never gonna

36:31

win. And she's taking cues at

36:34

this point from Katherine Bigelow

36:36

and figuring out how to be the

36:38

very first black female director of

36:40

her caliber. She told Entertainment Weekly

36:43

quote, I'm trying to be clear and follow

36:45

my own footsteps because there

36:47

is no black woman's footsteps

36:49

to follow. So I mean, she she

36:52

could absolutely be the game

36:54

changer. I mean, she's not going to stop making films

36:56

anytime soon, and she is. I

36:58

mean, she's the one, could be early, she could

37:01

be the one. But the problem is, why is

37:03

there just the one? Yeah?

37:06

Well, it's it's like we talked about so

37:08

much on the podcast around so many

37:10

different issues, and it's that issue of visibility

37:14

normalizing an idea, whether that's an idea

37:16

about women in general, women in color

37:19

in this case, it's women in

37:21

front of and behind the camera.

37:23

The more we say, look, a

37:26

black woman can tell a story that appeals

37:28

to to wide audiences and

37:30

and or not or tell a story that's

37:32

very specific to a certain subset or community

37:35

of people. That's fine too, But you

37:37

know the fact that there are so

37:40

many hurdles to overcome is

37:42

discouraging, but I think someone like Duvernet

37:45

is a great figure to have in the

37:47

news right now because it seems like she's sort of

37:50

kicking butt and taking names and

37:53

I'll tell you what like and and she's not the

37:55

only one in Hollywood doing that. Just

37:58

judging off the

38:00

Twitter reaction to a simple question of like,

38:03

hey, who should we shout out for

38:05

this podcast episode and

38:07

the enormous response from that, it's

38:10

clear that these women are I

38:12

mean, they're almost they're not blind to the barriers,

38:15

but they're working in spite

38:17

of them, and they're not backing down anytime

38:19

soon, and they're active and their vocal and

38:22

they are banging down the doors, and we're

38:25

hopefully doing our part to spread

38:27

the visibility and awareness around

38:29

that. Yeah, they're out there, they're making films,

38:32

and they're important films to watch and important

38:34

directors to watch out for. Yeah, so please

38:36

please listeners right in and tell

38:39

us your favorite directors, women,

38:41

women of color, anyone who has creative

38:43

films that have meant a lot to you. And we also

38:45

like to hear recommendations along these same lines for

38:48

films that we should be watching some of these

38:50

movies that were listed in our

38:52

research I had never heard of but can't

38:54

wait to watch. So email us

38:56

Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is our

38:58

email address. You can also tweet

39:00

us at Mom's Stuff podcast. And

39:02

if you're on Twitter and want to stay in the loop on what women

39:05

of color are up to behind the camera,

39:07

I highly recommend that you follow the hashtag kickstart

39:10

diversity and don't

39:12

forget. You can always message us on Facebook

39:14

as well, and we've got a couple of messages to share with

39:17

you right now. I

39:21

have a letter here from Searn that

39:24

is not necessarily about a particular episode

39:26

that Kristen and I published,

39:29

more about a an unfortunate

39:31

verbal vomiting issue

39:33

that we have. And I wrote

39:36

her back and I thanked her for pointing this out, But okay, let's

39:38

get to it. She says, I

39:40

really enjoyed listening to your podcast. Before

39:43

I started listening, I would have never thought

39:45

myself a feminist, but listening has made me realize

39:47

how it is a positive thing to be. However,

39:50

I do have a small point to make. When

39:52

discussing issues affecting women outside

39:55

of the USA, you often interchange

39:57

UK and British with England and

39:59

englandh as. I'm sure you know

40:01

the UK is made up of England, Wales, Scotland

40:04

and Northern Ireland. When you discuss

40:06

issues that affect British women but use the

40:08

word English, you were ignoring several

40:10

million women with devolution

40:12

of certain powers to local governments

40:14

in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It

40:17

is possible when you discuss certain

40:19

issues it may be something which may affect English

40:21

women only, but the majority

40:23

will be issues affecting British

40:26

women. Keep the podcast coming,

40:28

so thank you, thank you, thank you so much to our

40:30

Welsh fan Sharn for pointing this out. Yes,

40:33

in the process of citing all

40:35

of the studies that we do site in every

40:37

episode, we trip up

40:39

sometimes, so thanks for thanks

40:42

for really kindly pointing this out. We

40:44

love kind corrections are the best kind of

40:46

corrections. I'm gonna let her here

40:48

from Mary Rose about our Gay Best Friend

40:50

episode which we have been hearing

40:52

so much about, and these letters are fantastic.

40:55

Keep them coming, she writes. After

40:57

listening to your podcast on the Gay Best Friend, I wanted

40:59

to put my two cents in regarding lesbians

41:02

and friends and my experience.

41:04

Both myself and most lesbians that I know have

41:06

straight women as our bff. I

41:08

do have some lesbian friends, but as I imagine

41:11

happens with straight people, there can be tension there

41:13

sometimes, which can lead to drama, which is not

41:15

fun. I know many lesbians

41:17

do remain friends with their exes, but

41:19

that's probably a whole other podcast. I

41:22

also have gay male friends that I enjoy immensely,

41:25

and a few straight male friends, but my

41:27

closest friends are straight women. I

41:30

do think that most lesbians tend to be closer

41:32

to women overall, regardless of they're

41:34

gay or straight or somewhere in between.

41:37

So thanks Mary Rose and everybody else who's

41:39

written into us. Mom Stuff at how stuffworks

41:41

dot com is our email address and for

41:43

links to all of our social media as well as all

41:46

of our blogs, videos and podcasts,

41:49

as well as our list of women

41:51

of color behind the camera that you should

41:53

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41:55

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41:57

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42:01

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42:03

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