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I am Scott and I'm Ben and we're from car

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Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told

0:24

You from House Stuff Works dot com.

0:32

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

0:34

and I'm Caroline and this week

0:37

could be considered House of Cards week

0:39

on Stuff Mom Never Told You. Today,

0:42

we're talking about campaign

0:45

strategists. Yeah, because

0:47

typically when you hear from

0:50

a campaign strategist or

0:53

about one, it's usually a dude. Yeah,

0:55

and so why is that? Why is that?

0:58

Um? And speaking of House of Cars,

1:00

before we get into women in political

1:03

campaigning and strategy,

1:06

can we just take a moment to talk about

1:09

uh, Corey Lewandowski,

1:11

who to me is

1:15

Doug Stamper on House of Cards.

1:18

I r L. We'll tell the people who he is.

1:20

Okay, So besides being a real life Doug,

1:23

he is a real life Doug. People who have not

1:25

seen House of Cards are just so confused,

1:27

right, now. Um, so, uh, Corey

1:29

Lewandowski is Donald

1:32

Trump's campaign manager, and he's

1:34

been extremely visible

1:37

throughout the whole campaign. Um.

1:39

I would say that he's been the most visible

1:41

campaign manager, partially because he

1:44

was charged with simple battery

1:46

of former Bright Bart reporter

1:48

Michelle Fields. Um. The charges have

1:50

since been dropped. But he is

1:54

what you would expect Donald

1:57

Trump's campaign manager to. I

2:00

mean, he's opinionated,

2:03

he's pretty, let's say, rough and

2:05

tumble. I like, how diplomatic you're being.

2:08

Well, this is all about campaign

2:11

strategy and spend secure, trying

2:14

to like really just get into the spirit of it. Yeah,

2:17

but didn't he Like, but he pushed her right, Yeah. I

2:19

watched the security footage you can

2:21

see it online. And he

2:24

grabs her and and pulls her away. I

2:26

mean it's kind of hard to

2:28

see what exactly went down, but um,

2:31

yeah it was. I mean just just the

2:33

very idea of

2:36

that happening seemed

2:40

just I'm a stranger than fiction. Although we can't

2:42

like this political season, we should

2:44

just expect stuff like that

2:46

to be happening, you know. I Mean it's

2:49

almost like on like low on the list

2:51

of bizarro things that have happened

2:53

so far. I know, just the

2:55

the day before we came into the

2:57

studio to record this podcast. Uh

3:01

Baynard referred to Ted Cruise

3:03

as Lucifer in the flesh, like things

3:05

are just so weird politically,

3:08

like things are so weird. And instead

3:10

of focusing on the

3:12

people out front like Ted Cruz,

3:14

Carlie Furina, Donald Trump,

3:17

etcetera, we wanted to

3:19

pull back the curtain and look at

3:21

the political machinery because obviously,

3:24

with all the money but now

3:27

goes into political campaigning,

3:29

there's so much background work to hone

3:33

messages and optics

3:35

and events, and

3:39

you have when you look at the gender breakdown

3:41

of who does what behind the scenes

3:44

of political campaigns, you

3:46

have um a little pocket where women

3:48

are are um welcomed,

3:51

and then the rest of it. It's

3:54

pretty tough for a lady. It can

3:56

be pretty tough for a lady to branch

3:58

out in in the strategy

4:00

realm. But first I wanted to take

4:03

a look at people

4:05

behind the scenes in general, so campaigns

4:07

staffers, because I'm

4:09

sure a lot of you saw that big

4:11

Jezebel piece. It was looking at how

4:15

men and women in campaign staffs

4:18

are paid, and how many are employed

4:21

and over all the numbers are pretty pretty bad.

4:23

Uh So, this again is coming from Jezebel

4:26

and the The campaign with

4:28

the highest paid discrepancy between men and women

4:30

was Ted Cruz. Uh. Male employees

4:33

make an average of twenty thou more than female

4:35

employees in that campaign, the now defunct

4:38

Rubio campaign actually paid

4:40

women the best. They made on average

4:42

just more than five thousand dollars more than

4:44

male staffers. And of ten

4:47

of the ten highest paid staffers on

4:49

the sadly defunct Rubio campaign, which

4:52

a lot of people BT dubs in the

4:54

primaries are still voting for Rubio over

4:57

Casic. For instance, UM six

4:59

for female. Six out of ten on the Rebio

5:01

highest paid staffer list were uh

5:04

female. Not so for Bernie.

5:07

He is literally the only candidate

5:09

who has no women in his top

5:11

ten highest paid employees. But he

5:13

has paid the women in his campaign

5:15

equitably. In fact, on average

5:18

they're making a little under one thousand dollars

5:21

more than the men. And then

5:23

if we look at Hillary Clinton, men

5:26

and women were making essentially

5:28

the same amount and of her ten

5:30

highest paid staffers, uh sixer

5:33

dudes for our ladies,

5:35

um, one of them being Juma

5:37

Aberdeen, who's one of the

5:39

biggest names really in political

5:43

campaigning period. She's Hillary's

5:45

chief of staff and her campaign's vice

5:48

chairwoman. Um. And she also was

5:50

on Call your Girlfriend not that long

5:52

ago, which was uh interesting

5:55

to hear. I mean, like I'd never She's

5:58

been featured in a number of magazines,

6:00

um, in profiles and obviously his gotten

6:03

a lot of attention because her husband is Anthony

6:05

Weener. Um. But it was

6:08

it was nice to hear whom I have just

6:10

kind of off the cuff conversation

6:12

as off the cuff as a

6:15

chief of staff can be. Yeah.

6:17

And I love knowing that she started

6:20

working for Hillary as an intern at

6:22

the White House in so she's been with

6:24

her a long time. Um. And if you look at Trump,

6:26

out of his ten highest paid staff members,

6:29

seven or men and three or women. Uh,

6:31

and women on average make three

6:33

thousand dollars less than men their male counterparts

6:35

for the Trump campaign. And

6:38

John Kasik is actually the only candidate

6:40

who has a female campaign manager. Her name's

6:42

Beth Hanson. And actually Mike Huckabee

6:44

two did too, he hired

6:47

his daughter. But you know he's long gone

6:49

as well, I mean from the campaign, right, not from

6:52

from earth, correct, Okay?

6:54

Um? Uh yeah. I find

6:56

it so ironic that k Sik

6:59

has the lone woman

7:01

campaign manager, Beth Hansen, because

7:04

his policies regarding women,

7:07

as he's been um, Ohio governor,

7:09

have not been so lady

7:12

friendly again, you're being so diplomatic.

7:16

Um. So he oversaw massive

7:18

shutdowns of abortion providers

7:21

in the state. He passed two thousand

7:23

thirteen budget to defund Planned

7:26

parenthood while mandating

7:28

ultrasounds UM. And

7:32

in an interview with Beth Hansen

7:35

in EL magazine, the interviewer

7:37

asked, like, what she thought about when

7:40

k Sick essentially shut

7:44

down UM a young woman's question

7:46

in one of his events by saying,

7:49

oh, look I don't I don't have any tickets

7:51

to the Taylor Swift concert. And

7:55

and L magazine was understandably like,

7:58

okay, Like, how do you answer

8:00

to that? How can you say that your

8:03

candidate is still like a woman friendly

8:05

person? And she was like, well, you know, he has young daughters,

8:07

he has teenage daughters, and he's just you know, I

8:09

think it was just like he was trying to be funny, and

8:12

I mean it was just like spin spin spin spin.

8:15

UM. But apparently she's been she's been

8:17

with him for quite a while as

8:19

well. Um, but if we look at the gender

8:22

breakdown in terms of UH numbers,

8:25

just like of staffers, every

8:27

campaign minus Hillary Clinton's

8:30

has employed significantly more

8:32

men than women, which does reflect

8:34

just the broader trend in

8:36

politics. But I was heartened

8:39

to see that Hillary Clinton, the one woman

8:41

running for president, did hire or

8:43

has hired more women on her

8:45

staff than men. Yeah, and we will and it's

8:48

not just Hillary. We will talk about that

8:50

aspect of women in politics

8:53

here again in a little bit. But you know, the whole

8:56

skewing male thing obviously has been going

8:58

on for for a minute. It the political

9:01

consulting field itself

9:04

rose to prominence in the nineteen seventies and

9:06

eighties. This is when you start to see the professionalization

9:09

of people working on campaigns,

9:12

and of course consulting that

9:14

sort of encompasses a broad range of positions,

9:17

everything from campaign managers

9:19

to people who were just consulting

9:22

on like media appearances and things like

9:24

that. So it's kind of a broad range of positions. Um.

9:27

It was in that we see

9:29

the first ever female

9:31

campaign manager, Susan Estric. She

9:34

was hired to run Democrat Michael

9:36

Dukakis's bid for president back

9:39

then in the eighties, but also didn't

9:41

she get it, she was kind of the runner up. Oh

9:43

yeah, she was not the first choice. Yeah. The

9:45

dude he wanted to hire was I don't

9:47

know, otherwise engaged

9:49

washing his hair. Um. In

9:52

two thousand four Mary Beth k Hill,

9:54

John Kerry's campaign manager, was the only

9:56

woman in that role, uh,

9:59

for that presid sidential race. And

10:01

in two and twenty eleven, according

10:04

to often quoted

10:06

Rhetger's political science professor Kelly

10:08

Ditmar Uh, she was looking at

10:10

political consultants, which again that

10:12

encompasses strategists, pollsters, ad

10:15

makers, managers, media advisors, uh,

10:18

people who were working in top firms

10:20

on senatorial and gubernatorial races

10:23

those years eleven, and

10:26

she found that about seventy of

10:28

consultants with strategic influence

10:31

were men, but a higher

10:33

number of women were working on Democratic

10:35

campaigns than on Republican ones. And that's

10:38

like you see that every year, almost

10:41

in every type of race, at every level

10:43

of government, that more women are working for

10:45

the Democrats, more women

10:47

are in the higher levels

10:50

of those consulting firms who

10:52

work with Democrats. Yeah. So

10:54

in two thousand fourteen, for instance,

10:56

among key Senate races,

10:58

six percent of up campaigns

11:01

had female managers versus of

11:04

Democratic campaigns, and that was something

11:06

that Mitt Romney's former deputy

11:09

campaign manager manager called

11:11

disturbing in terms of the lack

11:13

of senior level women. Yeah,

11:16

I mean so basically, when you are

11:18

reading articles about women

11:21

in consulting in campaign strategy,

11:24

you just hear a couple of names over

11:26

and over again, some of like the o g women

11:29

consultants and strategists, and

11:32

Republicans for instance, had poster

11:34

Linda duval operative Maria

11:36

Cino, and of course consultant

11:39

Mary Madaline who she's almost

11:42

more famous for being married to James Carvel.

11:44

They of the opposite political ends

11:47

of the spectrum. And for the

11:49

Democrats back in the day, you had media

11:51

group gurus like Mandy Grenwalde and Don

11:54

Legwin's and posters to Linda

11:56

Lake and Diane Feldman. Not

11:58

to mention superstar

12:00

strategist and one of my

12:02

favorite Twitter presence is Donna brazil

12:05

Yeah, I was selling Caroline before we came in

12:08

the studio to record that. Donna

12:10

Brazila is one of the only

12:12

things that I really enjoy about watching CNN

12:15

during elections, and

12:18

she is a political force

12:21

to be reckoned with not to mention

12:24

she's made history. Um. So she

12:26

worked on every presidential campaign

12:28

from nineteen seventy six to two

12:31

thousand, and when she ran

12:33

Al Gore's two thousand campaign,

12:36

she became the first African American

12:38

man or woman to manage a

12:40

presidential campaign. Um. And I

12:43

love this fact about her. She first

12:45

got involved in politics when

12:48

she was nine years old,

12:50

working to elect a city council member

12:52

who promised to build a playground in her neighborhood,

12:55

which immediately made me wonder,

12:57

like, was that Leslie not from E

13:00

and direc because it

13:02

would how perfect would that be?

13:04

Um? I know that's impossible because Leslie

13:07

Nope is not real technically, Um,

13:10

it could be, in my heart, it could be totally

13:12

based on that story about Donna Brazil,

13:14

who she did right in a

13:16

memoir that for nearly my entire life,

13:18

my mother worked as a maid. Never in her wildest

13:21

dreams did she imagine that her daughter

13:23

would growp to influence national politics

13:25

or manage a presidential campaign.

13:27

And I mean it's funny that I wonder

13:29

if she's sort of downplaying it, because clearly this

13:31

woman is determined and single

13:33

minded and even from the age of nine,

13:36

like was clearly a little politician

13:38

who was able to affect change. And

13:40

speaking of her, though, women of color

13:43

have been intimately involved in grassroots

13:47

political organizing since the Reconstruction

13:49

and early civil rights eras with

13:52

people like I Too be Wells

13:54

and Mary Church Terrell and Mary McLoud

13:56

Buffoon UM, who were instrumental

13:59

in the now sational Association of Colored

14:01

Women that was highly invested

14:04

in UM, activating

14:07

women within black communities

14:09

to organize and get out

14:11

and vote UM

14:13

so that they could, you know,

14:16

elect officials that would have

14:18

their needs in mind. UM and

14:21

seguing though into today's

14:24

more establishment political

14:26

machines has not surprisingly been harder,

14:28

not just for women of color but for people

14:31

of color in general. And you mentioned, Caroline

14:34

that Donna Brazil is so single minded.

14:37

If we look at the

14:39

nine Michael Dukakis

14:41

campaign, Uh, this totally

14:44

reinforces and UM just

14:46

goes to show how how

14:49

single minded she truly is. So essentially

14:53

like not intentionally,

14:56

the campaign siloed

15:00

top tier operatives onto

15:02

a separate floor in their campaign

15:05

headquarters UM, which mostly

15:07

meant that all the white dudes were up top and

15:09

everyone else was on the bottom and

15:12

Brazil and Mignon Moore

15:14

were field directors at the time, and

15:18

those two plus Susan

15:20

Rice stormed

15:22

upstairs, claimed

15:25

a conference room on the top floor

15:27

and put a sign on the door that said,

15:29

Colored Girls, we shall not be

15:32

moved. And essentially,

15:35

from that moment, this

15:38

group of women, these political consultants

15:40

calling themselves the Colored Girls,

15:43

have become this DC

15:45

force that if you hope

15:48

to get elected on you know, for any

15:50

national campaign, like, you

15:53

gotta have dinner with them. They hold these like regular

15:55

dinners, and essentially candidates

15:57

come in and they grill them by

16:00

sickly making sure that they are keeping

16:03

communities of color and mind, because it's

16:05

like if if they don't like you, you're probably

16:07

not going to get elected. Yeah, well, just

16:09

like do CAUCUSUS headquarters weren't

16:12

intentionally segregated along

16:14

race or gender lines. I mean that that

16:16

could stand in for all of politics.

16:19

Politics aren't necessarily intentionally

16:21

segregated along those lines, but

16:24

they often are. And so you have women

16:26

like Brazil and the rest of the Color

16:29

Girls group that form

16:31

this influential contingent

16:33

of women of color who were able

16:36

to advise candidates

16:38

and remind them gently

16:41

or not that you can't

16:43

forget that the Democratic base

16:46

rests on the vote of

16:49

not just white men, but people

16:51

of color and women. And so if

16:53

you want to make it in this town, like, you've got

16:55

to be able to think outside of your own bubble.

16:58

Well, yeah, and it's African American men's vote

17:00

in particular. UM. But

17:03

one more thing about that campaign,

17:05

It is surprising that that even happened because,

17:09

like you mentioned earlier, Susan Estric was

17:11

the campaign manager. It's like, Suze,

17:14

come on, what happened?

17:17

Um. But today the

17:20

group of color girls, which they still refer

17:22

to themselves as UM,

17:24

has expanded to include

17:26

a few more women, including Reverend Leady

17:29

Daughtry and consultant Yolanda

17:31

Age caraway Um and also

17:34

the d n C General counsel Tina Flourne.

17:37

And in a New York Times profile of this

17:39

group, a number of politicians

17:42

spoke to their influence, including

17:44

Howard Dean, who said, quote, they're

17:46

very rare Washington insiders

17:49

who understand the rest of the country.

17:51

UM. And this whole thing

17:54

speaks to why looking

17:56

at who is behind the scenes in these

17:58

political campaign matter, because

18:01

if you only have white

18:04

men or also white

18:06

women who are crafting

18:08

your platforms essentially, then

18:12

there probably aren't going to necessarily

18:15

take an intersectional approach to policymaking.

18:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly, And that's why Tonia

18:21

Boy points out in Asian American

18:24

Policy Review that the campaign

18:26

staff needs to reflect

18:29

constituent diversity. And she

18:31

also points out that you might have training

18:33

programs if you want to work on campaigns

18:36

or in strategy. You know, there

18:38

might be a training program that's just general or

18:41

ones you know, specifically geared toward women,

18:43

But there's nothing really out there for

18:46

people of color who want to step

18:48

up and work with campaigns and be that

18:51

voice for other populations

18:53

that want to see themselves represented

18:55

well and in conversations about the

18:58

gender gap within like

19:00

our elected officials. I

19:02

think that this part of the pipeline, the

19:05

background political consulting and strategists

19:07

and campaign managers,

19:10

that aspect of the pipeline is something that I know I

19:12

didn't think about before reading up for

19:14

this podcast. We just think of, oh, well, we just

19:16

need more women to stand

19:18

up and be willing to

19:21

be candidates. But this is

19:23

an integral part of getting

19:25

more women in office too. Um, And

19:27

that's something that Boy underscores

19:30

in terms of the pipeline

19:32

issue that if you do not

19:35

train and empower more women

19:37

of color to enter into

19:39

political strategy and have influence

19:42

in that realm, then the pipeline

19:44

is still going to be leaky. Yeah. And what I

19:46

didn't realize before preparing for

19:48

this episode is that when women are

19:51

working in campaigns in strategy

19:53

or consulting or whatever, they

19:55

tend to be concentrated in

19:58

fundraising, which I had no I da

20:00

And this information is coming from Katie

20:02

Or from k qe D and

20:05

Abby Rappaport from the Texas Tribune.

20:08

Uh So, basically, forever women

20:11

have been barred from those higher level strategic

20:13

positions in campaigns. And while

20:15

they're more likely to be registered

20:18

voters and grassroots organizers,

20:21

they are way less likely to rise to

20:23

those elite levels. So

20:26

what is the deal? Why are these women

20:28

like shuttled off to fundraising positions?

20:31

Well, first of all, this reflects

20:33

a broader trend of women in

20:36

nonprofits of it being more acceptable

20:38

for women to be in the upper ranks of

20:41

nonprofit organization that's just fundraising

20:43

and raising money versus to

20:45

help others to help up exactly

20:47

the whole altruism thing versus

20:50

something that's considered far more masculine in

20:53

terms of being in the war room of

20:56

campaign strategy. So um

20:58

wrap report and or talked to a

21:01

number of women who are consultants

21:04

and also fundraisers and politics

21:07

and they essentially

21:09

compiled the laundry list of

21:12

all of these presumably female

21:16

friendly work responsibilities

21:18

that we hear over and over again in

21:21

terms of many pink

21:23

collar jobs. So you have the whole

21:25

thing of altruism, of humility

21:28

and putting others first. You're raising money not for

21:30

yourself but on behalf

21:32

of this candidate and for the

21:34

community at large, which reminds me

21:36

of our conversation with Gina and Ashley

21:39

from recruit Her when we talked about negotiating

21:41

and how it seems to for salary

21:44

and how it seems to be so much more acceptable

21:47

for a woman to um

21:50

negotiate for a higher salary for

21:52

someone else or based

21:55

in logic around helping

21:58

others. So yeah, same exam act

22:00

thing, and a lot of the women, as

22:03

both a positive and a negative, said

22:06

that the duties that come along

22:08

with fundraising, like event planning, sending

22:11

out invitations, and playing hostess

22:14

are traditionally women oriented

22:16

tasks and as Susan Lily, a Republican

22:18

consultant, put it, these tasks typically

22:20

fall on women, whether it's in politics or a wedding.

22:23

Well, and the whole idea too, that

22:26

it's detail oriented work, um

22:29

and and therefore appealing to women and therefore

22:31

something that women do better than

22:33

men is something that we have

22:35

heard also applied to a

22:38

lot of other sectors as well. Um.

22:41

Not to say that, like, don't you tell

22:43

me that women are detail oriented? I

22:45

am so sloppy, right,

22:48

But it's the whole thing of like, are you saying that

22:51

being detail oriented and a planner

22:53

is only a woman thing? Exactly? Exactly

22:56

um? And then there's a whole socialization

22:58

aspect of it. Um. This was something that

23:01

Amy Boone, who started her own consulting

23:04

firm before moving over to the

23:06

Texas Democratic Trust, talked

23:09

about, saying, from the time where little

23:11

girls were conditioned to

23:13

not really be the ones raising our hands,

23:16

so again it's that

23:18

that fun fundraising is

23:20

feminine? Who exactly? And

23:23

then Boone went on to explain

23:25

that it's possible that women are just getting

23:28

pigeonholed. She said that it's common when

23:30

a woman shows up to work on a campaign

23:32

without much experience and without much confidence,

23:35

the senior staff just tend

23:37

to push her over into a

23:39

junior fundraising role where she can do things

23:42

like just stay behind the scenes

23:44

planning, making phone calls, planning

23:47

parties and stuff like that, just basically assistant

23:49

role stuff. And so if that's

23:51

the position that you're placed in and

23:54

you do want to advance, well you're

23:56

probably just going to continue advancing up that

23:58

fundraising ladder. But

24:02

despite the fact that women are the overwhelming

24:04

majority in fundraising if nowhere else

24:06

in campaign strategy, they're

24:09

still not typically the ones

24:12

making the decisions because, as

24:14

Ditmark points out, you

24:16

might be in fundraising and you might

24:18

be brewing in in all of this cash money, but

24:21

that's not a like

24:23

clear cut strategic role the way

24:26

that being, for instance, a campaign manager

24:28

or a media spokesperson would be. And

24:30

in a very blatantly sexist

24:32

kind of way. Um,

24:35

some campaigns are

24:37

simply nervous about putting women in

24:39

charge of strategy because it

24:41

does violate gender norms in a lot of ways.

24:44

If we think of campaigns

24:46

as going to war, as many political

24:49

consultants do, and this was something

24:51

that Anne Urban, who began

24:53

professional campaign work for Republicans

24:56

way back in nineteen She said,

24:58

I think there's an old school conservative,

25:01

good old boy inclination to go with

25:03

a guy because it's too rough

25:05

and tumble to be a woman. Yeah.

25:08

So I mean that goes hand in hand with the pigeonholing

25:10

thing and just pushing a woman off

25:12

into fundraising. If you just

25:15

assume that someone who doesn't

25:17

look like you is only going to be good at one thing, or she's

25:19

not going to be good at what the thing you're good at,

25:22

then how like who's

25:24

going to break that barrier? Because if you're

25:26

just operating on assumptions about what a

25:28

woman is cut out for. And I think that

25:31

the likability factor plays into

25:33

this as well, um

25:35

where you see women

25:37

who might be in those more strategic roles

25:40

shot calling likelier

25:43

to be dismissed as

25:45

bitches. Yeah, And so

25:47

a lot of the women that were interviewed, we're

25:49

talking about how you know a

25:52

lot of successful women in campaigning

25:55

and campaign strategy and consulting

25:58

have to be comfortable with that,

26:00

you have to be okay with getting

26:02

called a bit because it's inevitable. And

26:06

one woman pointed out, like a lot of women

26:08

just aren't comfortable with that, and

26:10

especially when you're starting out, and so

26:13

that could also get you hamstrung

26:15

from progressing at the ladder in strategy.

26:18

And then you have the optics issue

26:21

because a

26:24

you have um the idea that

26:26

an attractive woman is going to be

26:28

better at raising money because who

26:30

doesn't want to give cash to

26:33

a beautiful woman. Whereas

26:35

a campaign manager who's going

26:37

to be on the road with a candidate,

26:40

especially if that candidate is Mail, if

26:42

you have a lady traveling alongside

26:44

him, then might that raise

26:47

some eyebrows about how close their relationship

26:50

really is. And that's something too

26:52

that is not exclusive to political

26:56

consulting, but really I mean

26:58

workplaces at LA. It's where it's like, it's fine

27:01

if all the guys go out for happy hour um

27:04

after work, but if a lady

27:06

wants to tag along, then then people might

27:08

get a little nervous. Well yeah, and so

27:10

one of the quotes that really sort

27:12

of I had to read a couple of times to make sure that I

27:14

was reading it correctly was from that Republican

27:16

consultant, Susan Lily, who said, uh,

27:19

male candidates don't need to be traveling with

27:22

a young, attractive female. I can give the wrong impression

27:24

even though there's nothing really wrong with it.

27:26

So kind of giving into just

27:29

well, tongues will wag, so we better just

27:31

not do it. You better just avoid

27:33

it. Um. But there's I

27:35

mean, so many other aspects of why

27:39

women get tripped up trying to pursue

27:41

jobs in strategy and consulting.

27:44

Uh. But of course these

27:46

are things that we see in so many other

27:48

professional fields, and we will get right

27:50

back into them when we come back from a quick break.

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in stuff that's stamps dot

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com enter stuff. So

28:55

there was this series of interviews that some researchers

28:57

conducted with consultants back in two thousand

29:00

three, and they found that

29:02

those consultants, men and women alike,

29:05

believed that women in consulting

29:07

political consulting face different rules

29:10

of the game, so to speak, including

29:13

having to work twice as hard to be successful

29:15

in the business, not being taken

29:17

as seriously or seen to be as credible

29:20

by candidates and the political parties as the

29:22

men folk, and having

29:24

to be careful about being too aggressive

29:26

in their marketing and approach to business.

29:29

So these are not just like think peace

29:31

writers talking about this stuff. These

29:34

are the consultants themselves talking about

29:36

the perceptions of women among

29:39

themselves, among their own ranks. And it seems like

29:41

that aggressive penalty

29:44

comes up over and over again when you

29:46

hear from women in this field. Um

29:49

Liz Shatter and Powell, who's the VP

29:51

of Political Strategies with Bates,

29:53

Niem and Ink, which is a democratic

29:55

direct mail and issue advocacy

29:58

consulting firm, said

30:00

that you have to be aggressive

30:03

to rise to the position as

30:05

an executive director of a committee

30:07

or a partner in a consulting firm,

30:09

which, again you have that socialization aspect.

30:12

This is a behavior that women are

30:14

socialized from young ages, often

30:16

against UM, even though

30:19

many people in the field embrace

30:22

it. UM. And you also have the

30:24

issue of you know, the Doug stampers,

30:26

the men in power who might not be so

30:29

keen on giving them a leg

30:31

up. Yeah, and then a

30:33

huge factor UM

30:36

in the field, just like it is comes

30:39

up any time we talk about women who

30:41

are alive and having children.

30:43

Is the whole family and parenting

30:46

aspect because if

30:48

you whether you're a working

30:50

mom or a stay at home mom, uh,

30:54

you're socially expected

30:56

to be there for your children and your

30:58

family more than you're expected to be at work.

31:00

It's the whole mommy tracking issue We've talked about

31:02

before and Uh. Angela

31:04

Faulkner, who's a Republican direct mail

31:07

consultant, told the Publication Campaigns

31:09

and Elections that she felt huge

31:13

stigma as a mom and full

31:15

time consultant, especially when she was traveling

31:17

overseas for clients. She talked about how early

31:20

in her career she actually felt resentment

31:23

from other women, Not

31:25

dudes, not dudes calling her out and calling

31:27

her a bad mom, but resentment from other women

31:30

who were questioning her decision to work in

31:32

Venezuela's recall election rather

31:35

than stay home with her children. Yeah,

31:37

she said, when people talk about family values,

31:40

it's usually based on a stable home environment,

31:42

and many conservatives feel that a stable home

31:45

environment requires a mother that isn't

31:47

required to travel UM

31:50

and the the child

31:52

care aspect also reminds me of a

31:54

Glamour magazine piece that we read

31:57

profiling UM women in

31:59

the current election,

32:02

and one thing that Whoma Aberdeen

32:04

said was if Hillary

32:07

is elected, what she's going to do the very next

32:09

day is turn off her phone and spend the day with

32:12

her son, making Impasta and

32:14

taking him out for ice cream, which I was like, can

32:16

I come over a UM,

32:19

But it kind of drives home, like I was reminded

32:22

reading that, like, oh yeah, you probably

32:25

do not get to see your kid all that often because

32:27

it is a twenty four seven job.

32:30

It does make me think of how how could

32:32

Doug be a father, I mean stamp,

32:35

House of Cards, Doug Stamper and house of cards, like how

32:37

could he be let alone? All of the you

32:39

know, personality court, sociopathy.

32:42

Yeah, well that too, um.

32:44

But you know, it's it's

32:47

hard across the board to make time for

32:49

family or social life or anything when you

32:51

are working in a political campaign.

32:53

That goes without saying, but it

32:55

turns out that those grueling schedules can

32:58

make certain jobs more difficult than others.

33:00

For instance, media consultants typically

33:02

end up with the hardest schedules of any operatives

33:05

because you know, I mean, it makes sense. You've got

33:07

to respond rapidly if something happens, If

33:10

Donald Trump says yet another thing about

33:12

women are Muslims, You've got to have your phone on to

33:14

be able to respond, and plus

33:16

you've got nearly constant travel.

33:19

And so that, according to a lot

33:21

of female operatives interviewed, is one

33:23

of the reasons that they're likely fewer women

33:25

in media than in places like polling,

33:28

fundraising or direct mail. So yet

33:30

again, for many women in

33:32

this industry, there is that

33:34

double standard, forced choice of

33:37

motherhood versus career, and

33:40

how are you going to make

33:42

the two work? Together, and obviously

33:45

there are plenty of women who are doing just

33:47

that, but the issue is

33:49

that men typically

33:52

do not face the same kind of

33:54

decision making, right,

33:56

And I mean, it turns out when we hinted at this earlier,

33:59

that party of phili asition is definitely a factor.

34:01

According to a study in the Journal of Political

34:03

Marketing from Tleven, they wrote that women

34:05

consultants tend to work for democratic

34:08

firms consulting firms more often than

34:10

Republican led ones, and that women led

34:12

firms were more likely to

34:14

be hired by democratic rather than

34:16

Republican candidates. And

34:19

so basically this twenty study echoed

34:23

prior studies that found that not only are

34:25

more women consultants Democrats,

34:28

but Democratic consulting firms

34:30

are more likely to have women named as

34:32

partners, and so as a

34:34

result, Democratic candidates are more likely

34:36

to hire consulting firms with women partners.

34:39

It's like gender politics

34:42

math literal gender politics.

34:44

Well, yeah, exactly, Well, and I wonder

34:47

if that kind of

34:49

partisanship in this issue goes

34:52

to what Angela Faulkner, who

34:54

was that Republican direct mail consultant,

34:57

talked about in terms of uh

34:59

CAN servatives having a very

35:01

distinct perception of

35:04

family values that's often a

35:07

top conservative platform,

35:10

and family values often when it comes

35:13

to when you look through the Republican

35:15

lens um often involves

35:17

a woman at least closer to home. But I

35:19

mean it's not like women aren't out there

35:22

doing it for themselves. They are. There are

35:24

more women these days leading

35:26

campaigns, leading superpacks,

35:28

and heading up consulting firms. One

35:31

thing I didn't expect, I guess I should

35:33

have expected it is that it's actually really hard

35:35

to find numbers. You know, Kristen and I love

35:38

citing stats. It's like our favorite thing. We

35:40

love to give you percentages, but it's hard

35:42

to find clear cut percentages and

35:44

stats when you're dealing with so many private

35:46

firms and behind the scenes, uh

35:50

makeups and breakdowns of demographics,

35:53

which again I mean like ridiculous

35:55

that that is the case in something that

35:58

lives and breathes by data,

36:00

But of course, I mean it's data and also

36:03

image, so there's only select

36:05

data that you would probably want

36:08

visible to the public. Um. But

36:10

you do have more women

36:12

who are starting their own consulting

36:14

firms, and it's not just democratic

36:17

women. You have Katie

36:19

Packer Gauge Ashley O'Connor and

36:21

Christine Matthews who got

36:23

together and founded the Republican

36:26

focused firm Burning Glass

36:28

Consulting UM, because

36:31

the Democratic narrative about

36:33

the GOP has been the whole

36:36

war on women. So these

36:38

three consultants got together and we're

36:40

like, you know, this whole tone deafness

36:43

issue that a number of Republican candidates

36:45

have had when it comes to women

36:48

is something that we could really

36:50

focus on. And the whole Burning Glass

36:53

aspect of their name comes from the

36:55

idea that they're going to be so laser focused,

36:57

like it's like it's sunbeam that could

37:00

learned through the glass. I

37:02

think I got that right, basically, Yeah, exactly.

37:05

But according to Sarah Brewer, who's

37:07

the former associate director of the Women in Politics

37:09

Institute an American University, UH

37:12

found through her research that female

37:14

political consultants often work

37:18

twice as long in the field before

37:20

starting their own firms than men

37:22

do. And the speculation around

37:24

that, I mean, there's a couple

37:26

of reasons that could be. One, you need

37:29

obviously kind of a fat rolodex of

37:31

clients and connections to start your

37:33

own thing, and if you

37:35

are not in a client contact

37:38

heavy position, it's harder

37:40

to make those direct connections. There's

37:42

also the thing that we've seen

37:44

so often when we talk about women or

37:46

really any minority group, uh,

37:49

in a professional capacity, that there's

37:52

often this need to feel that you have

37:54

to work harder to prove yourself. And that makes

37:56

it sound like you just internalized that and feel

37:58

like you have to do that. But often people

38:01

around you, I guess in this

38:03

case it would be the white guys and working in the campaign

38:06

expect you to work harder.

38:08

Well, And I mean the very fact that Burning

38:11

Glass Consulting received

38:14

a New York Times profile an

38:16

interview by Amanda Hess insulate

38:18

all of this media coverage because

38:21

it was three Republican women,

38:23

you know, forming this consulting firm, I think

38:25

speaks to how

38:28

you know this this is kind of a rarity.

38:30

Oh yeah, I mean, especially when

38:33

it comes to Republican consulting, right

38:35

exactly. Um, But in women

38:39

ran more than half of the thirteen most

38:41

competitive Democratic Senate campaigns,

38:43

and that year women were also in charge

38:46

of two key campaign committees, the National

38:48

Republican Congressional Committee and the

38:50

Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee.

38:53

But uh, those are both back

38:55

to being headed by dudes. So it's

38:57

not like a permanent change. Um.

39:00

And again that increase

39:02

in women operatives has been stronger

39:05

on the Democratic side, and in twelve

39:07

on the Republican side, there was just one

39:09

female manager working on those top

39:11

thirteen most competitive senter races.

39:14

So as we are seeing

39:16

slowly but surely the numbers of women

39:19

in political campaigning increasing,

39:22

the question is why

39:24

is this happening? Um? So it

39:28

could have to do with an influx of money

39:30

into and the professionalization

39:32

of campaigns, which creates more opportunities

39:35

for consultants. Um. I mean, the way

39:38

that political campaigns are

39:40

funded have has been a major

39:42

issue on the Democratic side

39:45

of the presidential race this year. Um.

39:48

And you also have a deeper bench

39:50

of female operatives who have gradually

39:53

risen to the top. Not to mention

39:56

an increasing focus and just general

39:59

acknowledge meant that female

40:02

voters win

40:04

elections. I mean, women essentially

40:06

are the people who decide

40:09

who at least gets to the White

40:11

House. Yeah. And another

40:14

big aspect of this is the proliferation,

40:17

like dandelions on your front yard,

40:20

of super PACs. And those

40:22

super PACs offer men

40:24

or women more job flexibility

40:27

and and schedule flexibility than working directly

40:29

for candidates. And that's so that's attractive

40:32

to anyone male or female

40:34

who has a family or

40:36

you know, I don't know, like seventeen cats, like whatever,

40:39

you know, or like a bocci ball league on

40:41

the weekends, like whatever you want

40:43

to do to make your life more rewarding, you

40:46

would have a little bit more time for it.

40:48

And Alexandria lap who's the executive

40:51

director of the House Majority Packs,

40:53

says, yeah, I'm not getting a call at

40:55

eleven pm from the D Triple C chair

40:57

of Congressman so and so, you sir,

41:00

to your donors. But it's different than

41:02

answering to a politician. And

41:05

super Packs, by the way, in case you are

41:07

not familiar, it's their job to raise

41:09

and spend a ton of

41:12

money, but they can't donate money directly

41:14

to candidates. So there is that lay yeah,

41:17

yeah, yeah, exactly, there is that layer of separations.

41:20

So, yeah, you're not answering directly

41:22

to like an angry candidate or an

41:24

angry campaign manager who wants to talk to you in the

41:26

middle of the night. Oh gosh,

41:28

what if Doug Stamper called you in the middle of a night

41:31

chilling. I don't think i'd answer I don't

41:33

have the the exact numbers in

41:35

front of me, But in terms of women of

41:37

color and political activism

41:40

UM, there's also been an

41:43

exponential um influx

41:46

of packs forming specifically

41:48

to UM engage those

41:51

groups. I mean, for instance, you have Rosario

41:54

Dawson's co founded Vota Latino

41:56

UM and all sorts of groups like that

41:59

that have risen in just I mean

42:01

the past five ten years. Yeah,

42:03

because politically you kind of

42:05

have to fight fire with fire, and by fire

42:07

I mean cash. Money's lots

42:10

and lots of cash moneys, like a Scrooge

42:12

McDuck pool of money to

42:15

buy ads that's not directly

42:17

contributing to a politician. But I

42:21

know, I know, I just I hate

42:23

it. I was thinking today actually,

42:25

when we were preparing to come into the studio,

42:28

Like I looked out the window wistfully

42:30

and I just thought, God, I would

42:33

kill for candidates

42:35

who were just humans, you know what I mean.

42:38

Like you can like and respect a

42:40

candidate all you want all day

42:42

long, and like get caught up

42:44

in the idealism and believe

42:47

what he or she says and and be behind

42:49

them. But God, I

42:51

would feel so much better if candidates were

42:53

just like, yeah, you know, this thing over here

42:55

sucks like well, I

42:57

mean, I think some of that is due

42:59

to the fact that we are a two party system,

43:02

so you have, you

43:05

know, like two people who are

43:07

going for like such

43:09

a diverse, massive

43:12

group of people. Yeah. I was just so

43:14

when Bayner called Chris

43:16

Lucifer in the flesh, I was just like,

43:18

that is I'm not even a Republican.

43:21

Was that the realist moment for you? So far? Was a

43:24

campaign? One of the realist moments? And

43:26

I was like, God, that's refreshing. Well.

43:28

And one thing we you know, haven't even gotten

43:31

into and don't have time

43:33

to is the rise

43:35

of the kind of superstar

43:38

political manager like a

43:41

Karl Rove. I mean, I think that he's probably

43:43

the most intense example

43:45

of that. I mean that that man has really,

43:48

in a lot of ways, um

43:50

changed American culture. I mean, he's

43:52

responsible, I think, for a

43:55

vast majority of the conservative

43:57

political climate right now. Well. Yeah,

43:59

and even with Karl Rove, though you had

44:02

Karen Hughes, I think only temporarily.

44:04

I don't think she was with George Bush

44:06

for the long haul. She had worked with him back

44:08

in Texas UM and worked with him

44:10

on one, if not both, of his election

44:13

presidential election campaigns. Um, so

44:15

you did have a woman sort of like in

44:17

the wings behind row. But

44:20

for all of his puppet mastering, Karl

44:23

Rove gets both the credit and

44:25

the blame for all of the stuff

44:27

that happened in George Bush's presidency.

44:30

Well, and he's positioned himself in that way too,

44:32

because I mean, I don't

44:34

know that I've ever seen Karen Hughes

44:37

on television before, but when you have Karl

44:39

Robe all the time, Yeah,

44:41

And that's that's one thing we were reading about two

44:44

is like how in this modern

44:46

era you do have people

44:48

like Mary Magdalene and James

44:50

Carville, Karl Rove, Donna Brazil,

44:53

people who are political consultants

44:55

who even like in the boom times of the seventies

44:57

and eighties when they first emerged, still we're behind

45:00

the scenes and slowly,

45:02

but surely or pretty quickly, I

45:04

guess, they became

45:06

the talking heads on your cable news

45:08

networks, you know, your columnists

45:11

in newspapers, and

45:14

they have become celebrities

45:16

and pseudo politicians in their own

45:18

right. Well yeah, speaking of House of Cards, Dono

45:20

Brazil has made two cameos

45:22

on the show. I mean James Carvel was

45:24

in old school. I don't know, like

45:27

that is a fact in my brain that Um,

45:29

I wish it could be replaced with something more

45:31

useful. UM. But I mean James Carvel

45:33

has made so many cameos and all

45:36

sorts of stuff. Um. And but that

45:39

whole thing too, I would attribute going back

45:41

to old j school days, journalism

45:43

school where Caroline and I first met. Um.

45:46

It's all about the twenty four hour news cycle too,

45:49

so of course they're pulling from the stable

45:51

of people who are really good about talking

45:53

politics and also spinning

45:56

and kind of you know, uh,

45:58

shooting from the hip. The wolf Blitzer.

46:01

Yeah. I once

46:03

flew in a plane with UM and

46:05

he was carrying a garment bag

46:08

onto the plane and

46:10

it was monogrammed with his

46:12

wolf initials, and I was hoping

46:15

it would just be like an airbrushed picture of a

46:17

wolf god. I wish, I wish, um,

46:19

But I think the most surprising thing was that

46:22

his beard was almost translucent.

46:25

Strange. I thought you were going to say it was like a fake

46:27

Santa beard that was tied on behind his ears. Also,

46:30

I wish, but I want your your wolf

46:32

Blitzer. Um. I was on a plane

46:35

with Kathleen Sebelius, one time former head

46:37

of Health and Human Services. We made eye

46:39

contact when there was a really annoying woman talking

46:41

on her cell phone. Kathleen,

46:43

I waved to her, um, anyway,

46:45

see if you're listening, shout out, um,

46:49

so anyway. It's

46:52

kind of obvious and goes without saying. And

46:54

in Kristen, you already touched on this earlier in

46:56

the podcast that if you don't represent

46:59

the population in your campaign,

47:01

in your strategy, like, it's

47:04

obviously going to ding you because

47:06

you're not going to be able to fully get the picture of

47:08

your electorate. And dip Marius

47:11

can you imagine um. Dip mar writing

47:13

about this, says you have to be able to

47:16

understand how to speak to

47:18

all voters, including hello, over

47:21

of the population, which is women

47:24

voters. And she points out as if

47:26

she needs to that listen to you guys.

47:28

There is value in

47:30

women's experiences and

47:33

women's voices, and that value can

47:35

be applied to shaping policy.

47:38

Okay, of course I agree with all

47:40

of that, of course, but we have

47:43

a massive glaring

47:45

exception to the idea

47:48

that you will get dinged

47:51

at the polls if you don't know how to speak to all

47:53

voters, and that would be the

47:56

runaway success of one Donald

48:00

A. Trump, formerly drump But

48:02

he yet well, yeah, but he's not

48:05

doing well in the polls with women, right,

48:07

but he's still the as

48:10

of the time that we are recording this podcast. Who

48:12

knows what will have changed when this

48:14

episode publishes. He's the presumptive

48:16

Republican nominee and it doesn't matter.

48:18

He doesn't even he doesn't need women. I mean,

48:20

granted in the general election,

48:23

I would be surprised if it didn't come

48:25

back to haunt him. Um.

48:28

But it's I

48:31

mean, the the American electorate also

48:33

is so um. I

48:35

don't I don't know how a good word

48:38

to describe it. It's so polarized

48:41

at this point. It's so extremely polarized

48:43

that unfortunately,

48:46

you can make excluding

48:49

certain people's rights and liberties,

48:51

including not only um women,

48:54

but also Muslims in the case

48:56

of the Trump campaign,

48:57

and really

49:01

anyone who's not wearing

49:04

them make America grade again and

49:07

not wearing it ironically. Um,

49:09

but that you can, you can do that and unfortunately

49:12

succeed. Yeah.

49:15

But like you said, I mean, he's

49:18

a runaway success with a very specific

49:22

demographic. He would not I

49:24

don't think do very well in the general

49:27

against Hilary or Bernie.

49:29

We'll see fingers hell.

49:32

I mean at this point though, UM,

49:35

And I'm really curious to hear from our listeners

49:37

outside of the US about all of this too, because I'm sure

49:39

it just looks like nonsense

49:42

happening it is. I

49:44

mean, I don't, I don't. I can't even

49:46

make any predictions at this point. Now.

49:50

I asked my father who he was voting for,

49:53

and he just kind of looks at me, because he and I

49:55

do not talk politics, and

49:57

he just looked at me and he said, I'll be the

50:00

in for Kasik after the contested nomination.

50:04

So but I mean, that's another interesting

50:06

example of you can not have

50:09

women's best interest at heart,

50:11

but if you keep quiet about

50:15

how you feel about women as opposed

50:17

to Donald Trump. Well maybe Beth Harden

50:19

his campaign managers had something to

50:21

do with that, who knows, UM,

50:24

But of course it's not these

50:26

aren't desirable outcomes,

50:29

you know, we would like to see um

50:31

people elected who do

50:34

UM value women, UM,

50:36

not just as like humans is

50:39

like beautiful objects like Donald

50:41

Trump has, but as UM

50:44

you know, people who should

50:46

be kept in mind when making and

50:48

passing policy. And that is

50:50

one reason why we need to give a

50:53

massive shout out to Emily's

50:55

List, which is a political

50:58

action committee for pro

51:00

choice Democratic female candidates.

51:03

Um. If you don't know who they are,

51:05

go look them up. Um they're terrific.

51:08

Um. And just McIntosh,

51:10

who works with them, agrees

51:13

that. I mean, it's simply a practicality

51:16

to have women working in your

51:18

campaign. She says, by

51:20

having women and leadership roles,

51:23

you're going to have more needed perspectives

51:25

about messaging, reaching voters.

51:27

All of that. When she was speaking to Vocative

51:30

Well, what I thought was so interesting and

51:34

telling. Remember that two

51:36

thousand three consultant study that I mentioned a

51:38

little while ago. Yes,

51:40

yes, rewind. If you don't on

51:42

your tape deck, your podcast tape deck, rewind,

51:45

this comes out on cassettes, right yeah, well

51:47

how yeah, people order them on those. Um

51:49

you remember those like cassette services like Columbia,

51:52

like Titus Andromeda, say Schmidt

51:54

subscribed to exactly. Um,

51:57

so you know they talked to a bunch of cans

52:00

Alton's male and female, and seventy

52:02

percent of the women they

52:04

talked to and just thirty percent

52:06

of the men believed

52:09

that women brought a unique perspective to

52:11

the campaign and that this perspective

52:13

could be used strategically to win elections.

52:15

So interesting, because then,

52:17

if you don't believe that women have a unique

52:20

perspective, and you are accustomed

52:22

to hiring and promoting

52:24

people who are like you, why

52:28

why would you make a special effort to

52:30

bring women in. Yeah. Again, I feel like this is just

52:32

a microcosm of issues

52:34

that we see across industries right

52:36

well, which is why so many women

52:38

interviewed in the articles that we read for this episode

52:41

cited the importance of mentors who can help

52:43

guide you through those gender expectations,

52:45

through those mind field this political mind fields,

52:47

and the importance of women helping

52:50

and hiring other women. It's

52:52

not uncommon, according to a lot of the women

52:54

we read, for women in campaigns

52:57

and consulting firms to band together, at least within

52:59

their own party and commit to

53:01

helping bring up promising young women

53:03

that live Chatter and Powell, who we cited earlier,

53:06

encourages female candidates and female

53:08

oriented packs to work only

53:11

with female consultants, and it's

53:13

worth noting that women candidates do, in

53:15

fact tend to hire more women to

53:17

work on their campaigns than male candidates do,

53:20

and she says if we don't help our

53:22

own, we will never be successful at tearing

53:24

down walls. Um She

53:27

said that in one campaign that she was

53:29

working on, a male staff member, a

53:31

Democratic male staff member, told her

53:33

that he she couldn't run one of

53:35

his top Senate campaign races

53:38

because quote, I was female,

53:40

and none of his candidates would take orders

53:42

from a woman. That's

53:46

that's my eloquent response to that. Yeah,

53:49

and so. Um Pal also writes

53:52

that women can at least be

53:54

there for each other to help encourage

53:56

one another to stick it out. She

53:58

says women are way more likely and men in

54:00

this field of work to basically, I

54:02

mean, for lack of a better word, and I'm just gonna use the buzzword,

54:05

but lean out when

54:07

they decide that they want a quote unquote

54:09

real job that will afford them some free

54:11

time to have a family or whatever.

54:14

Um and so she envisions Pala

54:16

visions this landscape where you

54:19

have training seminars that are exclusively

54:21

for female operatives, given exclusively

54:24

by female consultants that

54:26

would then after the fact, offer

54:28

a consistent stream of mentoring

54:30

support to help women stick it out. Or really

54:33

just to help women plan their career

54:35

trajectories in whatever political direction

54:37

they want to go. Yeah, I mean it's

54:39

an exhausting job. I can only

54:42

imagine UM getting into

54:44

this field. So, um,

54:47

I'm curious to hear if there are any listeners

54:50

who are currently campaigning

54:53

for UM for candidates right

54:55

now, or who have done so in the past, who can give

54:57

us more feet on the street and side

55:00

into this. And before we get into listener

55:02

mail, I want to quickly

55:04

correct myself. Um, just

55:06

a minute ago, when we were

55:08

mentioning Kimmy Schmidt, I refer

55:10

to Titus Andromedas. His

55:13

name is Titus Andromedon. Tinus

55:15

Andromedas is actually a band that I

55:18

used to listen to all the time. So

55:20

listeners, don't don't worry.

55:23

Don't worry. I know, I know. Um,

55:25

So I just wanted to make that very important

55:27

point clear. Sorry, I was ore. I was

55:29

just envisioning. I didn't even hear you finish

55:32

that because I was just envisioning

55:34

tit Us breaking that tape and having

55:37

so um. Yeah, I just I just

55:39

assumed you said it correctly. Well,

55:42

listeners, now we want to hear from you

55:44

mom stuff at how Stuff Works dot

55:46

Com is our email address. You can also tweet

55:49

us at mom Stuff podcast or messages

55:51

on Facebook. And if by chance

55:53

you know Donna Brasilt Pulleys, send

55:55

her our best and we've got a couple

55:58

of messages this year with you. Right

56:00

now, I

56:04

have a letter here from Sarah in response to our

56:06

episode on the comfort women of World

56:09

War Two. She says, I

56:11

was surprised to discover a bit of my

56:13

own family history. My grandfather

56:16

is a renowned cardiologist now, but

56:18

got his start as a brigade surgeon in

56:20

the Army during World War Two in the Pacific Theater.

56:22

For most of my life, he never ever talked

56:24

about the war. However, as I've gotten older

56:27

I'm thirty two and have since enlisted

56:29

in the Air Force, he felt comfortable

56:31

enough telling me bits and pieces about his service.

56:34

Shortly after the war ended, my grandfather

56:36

was in Japan trying to prevent epidemics

56:38

from breaking out among the troops. One

56:41

of his duties while there was apparently delousing

56:43

the women high ranking military officers

56:46

slept with. I never realized

56:48

quite what that meant until right now.

56:51

That's such a terrible position to be in,

56:53

I guess I now know why he never wanted to talk

56:56

to me about that job in particular. Thanks

56:58

for the clarity, and thanks for everything you ladies

57:00

do. I listen to your podcast all the time.

57:03

Well thanks, Sarah, So, I gotta let

57:05

her here from Lena offering

57:08

some clarifications and corrections

57:11

about that episode. Um so

57:13

so, she says, we, referring to

57:15

Koreans, aren't just upset about the

57:18

comfort women issue. Japan to

57:20

date has never actually apologized, and

57:22

they continue to refuse to do so. The

57:24

last so called apology was more of

57:26

a we're sorry you went through

57:28

that. In recent years, Japan

57:30

tried to eliminate a monument to comfort

57:33

women from various countries, including

57:35

Korea, the Philippines, China, and

57:37

other countries. And she goes on

57:39

to say, I get the things happened and need

57:41

to be discussed, but depicting Korean culture

57:44

as one where men would prostitute their own daughters

57:46

honestly makes it sound like you're trying to reduce

57:49

the seriousness of what Japan did

57:51

in numerous countries. As you mentioned, one of the

57:53

worst things these women face post war

57:56

was a social shame of their experience and

57:58

the ways in which they were to be early abused.

58:01

Being raped wasn't always seen as a sign that

58:03

you were a victim and will take care of you. They

58:05

were tainted, so everything they went

58:08

through shouldn't be minimized. China,

58:10

in particular shouldn't be forgotten. Your

58:12

government and people have been extremely active

58:14

in pushing for apologies and some

58:16

sign that they might not repeat the same acts

58:18

if given the chance. Korea's government

58:20

has let us down, and China's government

58:23

has continued to pursue numerous

58:25

issues. I'm not trying to be harsh, and I

58:27

love all of your podcasts. I found

58:29

time and again that your research on numerous Asian

58:31

issues has been extremely well done.

58:33

This just happens to be a particularly sore spot

58:36

that isn't just a problem for former quote unquote

58:38

comfort women. A term that really needs to die

58:40

anyway. It was created by Japan specifically

58:43

to try to tone down the horrific

58:45

nature of what was done to them.

58:48

So thank you for writing

58:50

in Lena, and thanks to everybody who's written

58:53

into us. Mom sab at House suppark dot

58:55

com is where you can send your letters and

58:57

for links sold our social media, as well as all

58:59

of our blogs, videos and podcasts. With

59:01

our sources so you can learn more

59:03

about women and political campaigns.

59:05

Head on over at stuff Mom Never told

59:07

You dot com

59:13

for more on this and thousands of other topics.

59:15

Is it how stuff Works dot com