0:05

Hey, this is Andy and Samantha and

0:07

welcome to stuff I've never told you production of iHeart

0:09

Radio. Okay,

0:19

y'all, we're back with part two of Women

0:21

and Romance and where you kind of us that

0:23

before. So we're talking movies,

0:26

video games, and music and we kind

0:28

of just h oh, it's a

0:30

lot. It's a lot in here, so if

0:34

you want to, you don't have to. You can also

0:36

check out part one where we already looked

0:38

into novels and fan fiction

0:40

as well, and it definitely had a lot in there

0:43

about all of that. And so moving

0:45

right along, I want to name off some famous

0:48

lines and see if you know what

0:50

movie they are from.

0:52

Okay, okay, and these

0:54

are all epic romance

0:57

movies. But

0:59

I don't have an experience in this field, so I'm

1:02

a lot of emotions. I try to

1:04

find very broad, very famous

1:06

one. So I feel you should

1:08

because I pulled the one off about Casablanca

1:11

and to have or have not, which is put your lips together

1:13

and blow. I picked that office. I didn't think

1:15

you would know what that movie was. So first

1:19

line, frankly, my dear, I don't

1:21

give a damn gone at the wind. There

1:23

you goes one second one No

1:26

one puts baby in the corner. I

1:28

don't know, really,

1:32

I've never known where that was from. Okay,

1:34

well that is dirty dancing, okay, alright,

1:37

alright, which has minio remakes. I

1:40

feel like I'm gonna have to make you watch some of it at the

1:42

very at least. And then there's I'll Never let

1:44

Go Jack, I'll Never let Go

1:47

Titanic, which I have not seen. She

1:49

pushed them off the thing essentially, um,

1:51

so you know, and then this

1:54

line as you with

1:59

differences pro yes, yes,

2:02

and then you complete me

2:05

Jerry McGuire there go. So okay,

2:07

okay, okay, four out of five ain't

2:10

bad. I'm very surprised that you

2:12

didn't know Jerry dance saying, although I'm not gonna

2:14

lie, that was the one. I was like, you may not know

2:16

this one because it is an eighties

2:18

movie and you didn't

2:21

do too much with eighties romance. I'm sure

2:23

no, I did not, which, by the

2:25

way, so have you seen any of those movies

2:27

I've seen Jerry McGuire and Gone with

2:29

the WIMPs. Yes, okay, you've never seen

2:32

Princess Bride. Yeah, I've seen Princess

2:34

Okay, Okay, that was shocking. That would

2:36

have been shocking. But yeah, so that's

2:39

our introduction. I'm very impressed with what

2:41

you did. Yeah, let's talk about

2:43

movies. Yes, so, when

2:46

it comes to movies, romance is one of the

2:48

most popular genres and

2:50

there are tons and tons

2:52

and tons, just so many of them. But first, as

2:54

we like to do, let's do some definitions. Romance

2:57

film is a genre where the plot revolves

2:59

around the love between two main characters

3:01

as they endured the highs and lows

3:04

of love. They are love

3:06

stories that focus on passion, emotion, and romantic

3:08

involvement of the main protagonists,

3:11

and they have common themes like love at first

3:13

sight, obsessive, tragic, sexual,

3:16

passionate, and so many other types

3:18

of love. Right, and the first

3:20

romance film was called The may Are

3:22

When Kiss or sometimes known as The Kiss,

3:25

and it was made in eighteen ninety six. It

3:27

was an eighteen second film that showed two

3:29

actors kissing, and yeah, you guessed

3:31

that it caused quite a stir, to

3:33

the point it got skating reviews as well as

3:35

the fact of the Roman chart publicly denounced

3:38

this film, and even when it was being screened,

3:40

police would be called to shut it down eight

3:43

seconds

3:45

second. Oh no.

3:47

And also something to note, the first discovered solid

3:50

black romance movie was created in eighteen eight

3:52

called Something Good, and the first discovered

3:54

queer film was made in nineteen nineteen called

3:57

That Different from the Others, and it was based

3:59

around too gay men falling in

4:01

love. It apparently is a tragedy, not

4:03

surprising, you know. Let's

4:06

talk about the sub genres there are within

4:08

romance. So there are several subgenres,

4:10

and before we take a deep dive into specific

4:13

movies, we wanted to break some of them down,

4:15

including the epic romance,

4:18

and it can be traced back to good old literature

4:20

or historical romance novels, books like Gone

4:22

with the Wind, which you already talked about, which

4:24

is considered still one of the most popular romance movies

4:26

out there, and many of Jane Austin books

4:29

like Pride and Prejudice or Emma that continue

4:31

to be remade over and over and over

4:33

again. Yep. There's also romantic

4:35

drama. Now, this is one of the

4:37

two main subgenres, and these

4:40

are usually big budget movies like Titanic,

4:42

which we are going to discuss a little bit more later,

4:45

and include classics like Casa Blanca. These

4:47

movies are more complex and look at the depth

4:49

of the ups and downs of relationships, whether it's

4:52

death, infidelity, even love

4:54

triangle. There's a lot

4:56

of love there are. And

4:59

then you have the romantic comedy. Now, this

5:01

would be the other main sub genre

5:03

within romance. The rom com

5:06

is the combination of loveless laughter that makes

5:08

the genre so popular. And of course we kind

5:10

of talked a bit about some of these movies before

5:12

when we talked about movies like Sleepless in Seattle

5:15

and even Sex in the City, which, by the way, maybe

5:17

more of a chick flick, which we'll talk a bit more

5:19

about as well. And there's a twenty year period

5:21

referred to as the era of romantic

5:24

comedy, which is from nine ten,

5:26

which those movies kind of fit in that timeframe.

5:29

Um, And it was during this time you had movies like

5:31

You've Got mel While You Were Sleeping and

5:34

many many more. That's funny. I didn't

5:36

know that that was an era. But my dad, who loved

5:38

movies, like love, love, love movies, he

5:40

would get me like any holiday, you'd get me a movie.

5:44

And for a while he was getting me all these

5:46

like rom coms and some of them might never

5:48

even like toward the plastic thing.

5:53

That's fair. That's fair. So chick

5:55

flicks. Yes, this is a more modern

5:57

sub genre than the others, and it's more of a

6:00

tag to romantic comedies, maybe a sub

6:02

subgenre, if you will. This is specified

6:04

as more of a quote niche of romance

6:06

films and it specifically marketed

6:09

more towards women. Are maybe created

6:11

by women or starring women, and combines

6:13

comedy, drama and romance, right,

6:15

And that's a nicer version of what

6:18

we're talking about when we say chick flick,

6:20

just so you know. Um. And then there's paranormal

6:22

romance, and here we're talking about movies

6:24

like Twilights and its entire series,

6:27

which by the way, are all on one

6:29

list of some of the highest grossing romance

6:31

movies in history. But the subgenre

6:33

is a hybrid of source that combines supernatural

6:36

fantasy with romance. So

6:38

we talked a bit about in our part one

6:40

of why women like romance? But why do women

6:43

love these movies? Is it the

6:45

relationships? Are maybe the meat cutes? And

6:47

what are some of the problems and reasons that romance

6:50

is not as accepted as

6:52

genre outside of just the

6:54

hope that it can give us and finding

6:56

that true love. There may be neurological

7:00

reason romantic movies are liked, according

7:02

to one group of neuroscientists at Princeton

7:04

University, as someone sees

7:06

the story and that story resonates or impacts

7:09

them, levels of oxytocin go

7:12

up, and when the story is told, well, the oxytocin

7:14

is released into the bloodstream and makes your brain

7:17

react as if we are actually experiencing

7:20

these stories. It's as if you're all falling

7:22

in love yourself. So

7:25

sweet, and with romantic comedies

7:27

we see arguments for both negative and positive

7:30

of rom coms. Many say that it undermines

7:32

women in different ways. Historically, rom

7:34

coms were known to be lagging and diversity

7:37

focused on the sist hetero relationships that

7:39

often make women to be the unattainable ideals,

7:41

specifically for the male gaze of course, kind

7:44

of like the pixie manic girl, that

7:46

kind of trope that there are definitely a

7:48

lot of problematic themes and all of romance,

7:50

whether we're talking about the stalkership session

7:52

or raky meetings. Yeah, I said

7:54

that, and they're definitely tropes that should be immediately

7:57

thrown out the window. We're looking at you, sixteen

7:59

candles. But

8:01

it can also be argued that being able to enjoy something

8:03

without over analyzing it can be worthwhile,

8:06

especially through a trumpatizing

8:08

pandemic. It's a nice distraction from

8:10

what could be a bad day. As Arabel

8:12

Saccardi wrote in her article in l watching

8:15

a good rom com is like going on a fun first

8:17

date with yourself. It makes you excited

8:19

and curious about this puddle of feelings inside

8:22

of you. I thought that was a sweet way of putting

8:24

it. But as

8:26

one article states, there's often misrepresentations,

8:29

specifically in wrong comms which women are always

8:31

the underlying vying for the attention of supervisors

8:34

or men and roles of authority. The teacher, the CEO

8:36

of the boss are women who are seeking to have

8:38

it all, including the perfect guy,

8:40

and not being fulfilled without them. Right.

8:43

But also the conversation of the overall

8:45

mass consumption of the expectation of what

8:47

women are supposed to be, are supposed to look

8:49

like is a huge conversation. I

8:52

mean, in what world is Anne Hathaway

8:54

or any apparently as she likes to be called,

8:56

I know, right, in

8:59

what world is she the dowdy girl turned princess.

9:01

I mean her curly hair too straight made

9:03

her a princess or beautiful, I guess,

9:06

or Drew Barrymore, the lonely nerd that

9:08

no one wants and no one wants to kiss

9:10

like and never been kissed. Come on, But what

9:13

happens when we start unconsciously comparing

9:15

ourselves to these doughty celebrity

9:17

characters as the same article stags quote. We

9:19

consciously and unconsciously internalize

9:21

these cultural norms, evaluating ourselves

9:24

and others in comparison to them,

9:26

usually without conscious awareness. We grow

9:28

trying to emulate whatever culture seems to

9:30

be most valuable, because we all want to be

9:32

desired, loved, and wanted. Yeah,

9:35

and that's something else I've been thinking about lately, is

9:37

I feel like we don't have this conversation as much anymore. But

9:39

a while back, there was a big conversation about, like, are we

9:41

teaching young people and young

9:43

girls specifically a very unrealistic

9:46

level of love and like what love looks

9:48

like? And you're not, I mean, there's certain aspects you're

9:51

just not going to show the boring days, right,

9:53

But but having those expectations

9:56

of this only this is love

9:58

and if only they got a print to carriage and

10:00

do this and this and this, you know, be

10:03

shy but open and vulnerable. You

10:05

know. Actually, one other article that I read, which

10:08

was review about romantic realism versus

10:10

ideal and fantasy, it actually

10:12

doesn't have a lot of correlation. They say that

10:14

just kind of like what we talked about with the novels. The

10:16

realization is it is fantasy and

10:19

we want to escape, and this is a part of the escapism

10:22

that kind of comes into it. And so there's not even

10:24

though we have concerns and we we do have

10:26

obvious obsessions and or

10:29

loves and drives and pushes. For

10:32

the most part, people

10:34

know teenagers too, that it is

10:36

not reality, although it

10:38

doesn't mean we're not trying for it. Yeah,

10:41

and I find that really interesting, I because I

10:43

haven't really heard that side of it before, that it's escapism.

10:45

And when you said that, it totally made sense to me. And like, of

10:47

course, like we sort of know it's

10:50

generally not how life's been a word, but that's

10:52

why I like this exactly. But

10:54

Okay, have all of these

10:56

thoughts and concerns we've been discussing

10:59

also place to shame factor in enjoying

11:01

these romance movies. There are so many

11:04

articles talking about healthy and unhealthy concepts

11:06

of romance and what is being depicted versus

11:08

reality. But I guess we would

11:10

also say that a part of the argument is the

11:12

need to dismiss the success of these movies

11:14

as being frivolous or

11:17

yeah like later named as chick flicks

11:20

due to the fact that women enjoy them

11:22

and many are targeted to women, and

11:24

of course, in our society,

11:26

that means it doesn't have any value.

11:29

And by the way, the term chick flick originally

11:31

meant a sexually explicit film, but

11:34

in nineteen eighty nine it was used

11:36

to describe the movie Still Magnolia's which

11:38

have you ever seen that? Have you talked about this? It's

11:41

very sad and due to the fact that it featured

11:43

predominantly an all female cast

11:46

as well as the fact the majority of the audience

11:48

was female. And then it was used to reference

11:50

Thelma and Louise and Fried Green Tomatoes

11:52

and what do these two movies have in common?

11:55

Strong female leads, and

11:57

the term eventually included all in any

11:59

movie that had the female lead or influence.

12:02

Movies like Wild with Reese Witherspoon

12:04

or lust stories like While You Were Sleeping. They all

12:06

somehow got swept into the category of chick

12:08

flick, which is not only dismissive but

12:11

demeaning in the mirror. Over simplification

12:14

of so many different and strong movies,

12:16

it's often to dismiss this credibility

12:18

of being a compelling film,

12:20

right, And yeah, it does go in hands

12:23

with the fact that women cannot be taken

12:25

seriously as a leading protagonist, and

12:27

that women aren't funny,

12:30

or that if it is geared towards women,

12:33

it's not a serious

12:35

contender. We sort of talked about that with the comparisons

12:37

between Sex and the City and The Sopranos,

12:40

So how could any movie that has

12:43

both of these things be taken

12:45

seriously? And though it has not been seen

12:47

as a big money maker recently,

12:49

it still holds large viewership

12:51

and interest. Like if you just hit the newest

12:53

series Bridgerton, which is a historical

12:56

romance that is the most watched series

12:58

on Netflix. It has problematic

13:00

issues which we will address, but that aside,

13:03

it sends to show romance is

13:05

far from dead and as we know,

13:07

and it's created by men, it's legitimate and

13:09

when created by women. It's cute.

13:12

It's just cute, Okay. So let's talk

13:14

a little bit about some of these movies. The

13:16

classic historical romance Titanic.

13:19

There's so much we can say to the plot of

13:21

the film. A rich girl,

13:24

a poor boy, a very obvious disaster,

13:26

and a giant diamond that she throws back into the

13:28

ocean for the love of God. Wa

13:30

take that thing, girl. Though it was one of the highest

13:33

grossing movies at the time, which made one

13:35

point eight billion dollars then,

13:37

I believe around that time, and then an

13:39

overall two point nineteen billion

13:41

dollars as of and

13:45

it aren't forty Academy Award nominations

13:48

with eleven actual wins, including

13:50

Best Picture. One thing to know that James

13:52

Cameron obviously is the director and

13:55

creator of this movie, so it maybe more

13:57

as we were saying, credited as

14:00

a success because it was directed and created

14:02

by a man, of course, and also there

14:05

is tragedy in there which makes it taken

14:07

a little seriously right, And

14:09

it was number one in the box office for fifteen

14:12

straight weeks. It was a huge

14:14

success. But it's definitely a love hate

14:17

film. It pilled to so many

14:19

whether it was young teenagers wanted

14:21

into romance. It a little bit of Leo

14:23

or the pure joy or judgment of historians

14:25

with what's happened with the Titanic

14:28

or those who came to see the morbid results of an impending

14:30

tragedy. People love it right, and

14:34

word of mouth helped spread its success for

14:36

the fifteen weeks at State at number one.

14:38

Definitely, this is one of the movies I went to see

14:40

at the theaters, not realizing I was

14:42

going to come out ugly, crying and being

14:45

depressed for the next three days. I

14:47

am ashamed to admit that I at

14:50

the time, I was a very contrarian

14:52

kid. So if everybody likes something that I

14:55

didn't like, it like they really annoying

14:57

trait that I had, and everybody likes

14:59

Leonard decap you and I refused to

15:01

get in on it. And to this day, I haven't

15:04

seen Titanic. And my ex boyfriend,

15:06

who loved this movie, tried to get me to watch. It

15:08

was really late, and like within the first ten

15:10

minutes I was like, kind of I wouldn't

15:12

say bored, but just I'm tired, and he was

15:14

like, you have to be awake to appreciate this, So

15:16

he turned it off, and I've never seen it since.

15:21

I would never make you watch this movie. Honestly,

15:23

I've only seen it once, but it definitely

15:25

I remember it, maybe

15:28

because of all the means, but you know, I mean, yeah, it's certainly

15:30

it seeped into our cultural psyche where even

15:32

though I haven't seen it, I know like five

15:35

or six big moments in it. Like I know about

15:37

it. I mean, I still argue to the point, why couldn't

15:39

Jack just get it on the damn door? Maybe Jack

15:41

was a ghost and we're speaking

15:43

of let's talk about the Twilight suck.

15:46

So yeah, we did talk about this a little bit when we talked about

15:48

novels and fan fiction too,

15:51

because it was Hermione Jaco

15:53

fan fiction I remember. But Twilight

15:55

has definitely definitely made an impact.

15:58

According to one screen rent article,

16:00

Eclipse, New Moon, Breaking, Dawn's

16:02

Parts, Want and To all take up

16:04

a slot in their top highest grossing

16:07

romance films of all time. So

16:10

what is their appeal? Well,

16:12

you've got vampires and where wolves and love

16:15

triangles, all of it. Oh

16:17

my, there's a lot of back and forth when

16:19

it comes to the love hate of this series.

16:21

But the appeal begins with the

16:23

book and its ability to tap into a young

16:26

girl's desire to be fiercely

16:28

wanted. What girl doesn't

16:30

want to be the one that changes someone's

16:32

behavior, or be someone's obsession. And

16:35

yes, taken into the context of every day,

16:38

real life, this is really creepy and disturbing.

16:40

We've talked about that before, but

16:43

here it is a safe space to see your characters

16:46

that you're so attached to come to life,

16:48

go through all this turmoil, and eventually

16:50

get that that happy ending. And

16:53

this was meant for young girls, teenage

16:55

girls, girls who were just learning about romance

16:57

and their own feelings and desires. And

16:59

he was the specific book, this specific

17:01

series that allowed them to question and even dig deeper

17:04

to what their desires might be. And

17:07

even more so, they have superpowers.

17:10

There's an element of fantasy that you wished

17:12

existed, infused with love,

17:15

oh love. And it was

17:17

for the lack of better words, emo, Yeah,

17:20

so many teenage tragedies, dramas,

17:22

and inner conflicts. As a hormonal teenager,

17:24

I think this speaks to them. There's a lot of complicated

17:27

emotions and trying to decipher them

17:29

is painful. And here are these characters who leaned

17:31

into that, but it's

17:34

problematic too. Yes, and we can all agree a dude

17:36

coming into your room without permission to watch you

17:38

sleep is not okay and virginal

17:40

conversation, but it doesn't mean it's

17:42

not entertaining, right And obviously

17:45

the author, Stephanie Meyer, is hoping for

17:47

a still loyal fan base as she

17:49

is set to release Midnight's Son, so we'll

17:51

see if it still has that draw. By

17:54

the way, um, I actually read the late copy

17:56

of this probably like I don't know,

17:58

ten years ago. I

18:01

don't think it may have. Look

18:04

my job was really boring, and I was like, what.

18:07

I definitely got into this as a twenty year old, and

18:09

it was really fun to look through people's

18:11

reaction from back then because I think the anniversary

18:13

was the tenor anniversary happened

18:16

then and people came back and talked

18:18

about what the pill was or what the what they didn't

18:20

like about it, And there was one twenty

18:22

something she says she was twenty years old, which she was introduced

18:24

to it, and the appeal of it was that it

18:27

was such a fantasy, such an easy read

18:29

that you truly could escape and

18:31

knowing that this was not me Obviously

18:33

I was not a teenager at the time, so it wasn't necessarily

18:36

made for me, but it was nice

18:38

to think of, huh man,

18:40

that would have been nice as a teenager, you know what

18:42

I mean. So I think there's definitely appeal

18:45

to that. It'll be interesting if Midnight Sun

18:47

actually takes off. And let's

18:49

talk about the series Britain,

18:52

which any has been waiting for I think

18:55

quite excitingly, which

18:58

according to Netflix, had more than eighty two million

19:00

accounts that watched Bridget in the first

19:02

month. And apparently the

19:05

numbers could be little skewed because the way they

19:07

counted is if you watch four or four

19:09

minutes, they count, so

19:13

I don't know how correct these numbers

19:15

are, but it can't be denied as popular.

19:18

It is very popular. We've seen the quizzes, what

19:20

you've seen the comments, and there's gonna be a season two

19:22

and people are quite excited about it. So

19:25

for those of you who don't know specifically, you any

19:27

a quick rundown without spoilers, maybe

19:29

a few minor ones, okay. This

19:32

is a historical series based on books

19:34

written by Julia Quinn and produced

19:37

by Shonda Rhymes, part of the Shonda Land

19:39

Productions. It is set during the Regency

19:41

era, following the lives of the Bridgetain

19:44

family, and we're quickly introduced

19:46

to the two main characters, Stephane Bridgerton,

19:48

who is the diamond of the

19:50

season, which is during the marriage

19:53

season when they're all courting courting season, and

19:55

the new Duke of Hastings after his father's

19:57

death. Simon Bassett for a quick

20:00

description, Jane Austin style

20:02

of romance with sex. Lots

20:04

of very coordinated and unrealistic

20:06

sex. That's what I've

20:08

heard about it. The show is narrated

20:11

by a gossip writer who calls herself Lady whistle

20:13

Down, who publishes the town's gossip, and

20:15

it's actually voiced by Julie Andrews. Of

20:18

course, we followed the main protagonists

20:20

in their road to love falling for each other,

20:23

which begins with some harsh words exchange

20:25

to rouse and attract men

20:27

and then to push away women from

20:29

the Duke, who has no desire to be married.

20:32

His whole narrative is pretty much about

20:34

his awful relationship with his father who was

20:36

a badman, and wanting to en that lineage

20:39

just despite him. So along

20:42

the way we get to meet the entire Britain

20:44

family and their different storylines, which

20:46

by the way, apparently is how the series goes,

20:49

including the sister Eloise, who wishes

20:51

not to be married or become those

20:53

girls who spend their time looking for a husband, but

20:55

desires to go to the university and

20:57

be independent. So she's kind of that Jane

20:59

aust And character that you think of as the

21:01

lead. But what makes the serious difference

21:04

is the diversity that is within the entire

21:06

story. The most powerful person in society

21:09

is the Queen, Queen Charlotte, a black woman. In

21:11

this diversity is a part of storyline is

21:13

talked about between the black characters,

21:15

but there's a definite back and forth on how it's

21:17

being received from the audience

21:20

or for the people who are watching it. Some have praised

21:22

it, as we know this type of representation has

21:24

not been seen in shows and movies

21:26

like these. At the same time, it's kind of dismissive

21:29

of the issues that were present during this time, and

21:31

also it does seem like the fact that

21:33

the black characters are the ones that have to grappled

21:35

through this and have this conversation, and the white characters

21:38

are like, yeah, I just need

21:40

to stress you're poor, you know

21:42

what I mean, which is still bad this year, you don't get me wrong.

21:44

But it's definitely something that is intersectional

21:46

for many of the communities and characters

21:49

inside of that story. So there's a big

21:51

back and forth. Yeah, and it seems that

21:53

the diversity is seen

21:56

as one of the appeals of the show, as well as

21:58

the beautiful sets and the costumes and

22:00

yes and yes. By

22:02

the way, it makes me want to speak as if I too was

22:05

coming out and about to attend the ball, though

22:07

I believe I would now be counted as a spinister. Still

22:10

a ball, Yeah, the

22:12

would I not? If I'm loud in society

22:17

up and

22:20

to say these movies and shows have a lasting

22:22

impact is an understatement. But as

22:24

we see that the level of popularity

22:26

of romantic movies seem to be dwindling,

22:28

and seemed to have dwindled seeing the success of shows

22:30

like Britain, and now adjusting to a

22:33

new way of seeing movies because we're

22:35

not a theater anymore, we're streaming. I

22:37

do wonder if we will see an increase and interest

22:39

in romantic movies on a wider scale. We

22:41

know that why novels have been flipped

22:43

a lot into movies recently and are some

22:46

of the higher viewing movies on Netflix

22:48

as well. Whether it's To All the Boys that I've

22:50

Ever Loved, which has a great Asian

22:52

protagonist, like all of these things, and it's

22:54

bringing up a new era of romantic

22:56

movies. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see, especially in

22:58

the wake of, as you say, traumatizing

23:01

pandemic, what we'll get created and what people

23:03

will want. Oh yeah, yeah, we'll

23:05

see. And I did want to honorably honorable

23:07

mention of The Bachelor. I know a lot of people like it, and

23:09

that is an interesting aspect of

23:12

like romance and courtship and

23:14

why do people love that because it's

23:16

so popular and there's tons of podcasts specifically

23:19

about The Bachelor, So

23:21

maybe a future episode perhaps and fifty Shades

23:23

of Gray and the panic around that whole

23:25

thing, which I remember being in the airport

23:28

and there was a CNN report

23:31

and they were like, what are we gonna do about all

23:33

these soccer moms reading. I

23:36

mean, there's a conversation about the way

23:38

sex and the way it's portrayed does

23:41

appeal. Again, we didn't really get

23:43

into the whole conversation of sex

23:45

within brigtain and how I said it as

23:47

unrealistic, but it's still quite enjoyable.

23:51

But that also can lean to the conversation about how it's

23:53

filmed, in which we have talked about doing this as

23:55

episode as well, and how it looks

23:57

like to be a part of these scenes. But I

24:00

do have to ask you. I went to a site

24:02

because I wanted to see who were the most loved

24:06

characters, specifically male characters

24:08

and like any of the genres, any of

24:10

the shows. Do you know, can you name

24:12

the top five of what all

24:15

of all movies? Yes, I

24:17

just wanted to know, like specifically, like they would

24:20

give up their relationship for these characters.

24:23

I just want to know. Oh no, if you know them?

24:26

Um

24:28

no, no, well actually

24:31

the top five, four of them are

24:33

m c U characters and one of them

24:36

is a supernatural character. Yeah.

24:40

The top one was Thor and number

24:42

two was Dean Winchester. Yeah.

24:45

I thought it was really interesting. So it's one of these

24:47

sites that you can go on and they do the up votes and

24:50

there's like thousands and thousands and thousands of people

24:52

going on there. Yeah. I was very

24:54

surprised by that. I am as well, or

24:56

it's not who I would go for it, but you know, good arms,

25:00

lots of good things coming on. I understand, well,

25:04

he was chubby. I feel

25:06

like the personality is so key to me

25:08

that yeah. Yeah. Anyway,

25:11

we have a lot of other video game based

25:13

stuff to talk about, but

25:15

first we're gonna fause for a quick break for word from

25:17

our sponsor and

25:30

we're back, Thank you sponsor. So

25:33

yes we have we have to talk about video games.

25:35

While romance is not the center of most video games

25:38

I play, it does usually have a

25:40

decent role, and sometimes a very significant

25:42

one. In my experience, the playable character

25:44

is usually a male and the romantic interest is

25:46

a hot woman who, while capable,

25:49

also probably serves as the damsel in distress.

25:51

And you can see our Princess Peach slash Princess

25:53

Told School episode for one of the most iconic

25:56

examples on that, and quite possibly

25:58

dies to kick start the mail revenge plotline.

26:01

While there are amazing female

26:03

characters and some of these narratives, that doesn't

26:05

change the fact that by nature, most

26:07

of the protagonists are playable characters

26:10

being male. Because of that, it

26:12

means that the romance in most of these games

26:14

is seen through a male lens. On

26:16

the other hand, there are plenty of games where your choices

26:19

impact who you end up with. Depending

26:21

on the game, there can be a diverse pool of candidates,

26:24

and there are games that are romance

26:26

games, like straight romance games where you get like heart

26:29

points. I don't know any of those,

26:31

so I'm not going to be discussing

26:34

them, but I will try to highlight bigger

26:36

examples from games that I have not

26:38

played. So let's get

26:40

into it. One of the reasons that we wanted to

26:42

talk about video games specifically that I was

26:44

like, you know what, we need to talk about this with this romance.

26:46

Joseph Gordon Levitt, who was recently

26:48

on Hot Ones, one of my favorite shows, was

26:51

talking about the impact of the

26:53

Internet, the impact of things like YouTube

26:55

and other forms of viewing

26:58

and storytelling. He's scifically

27:00

said that he thought the new wave

27:02

of storytelling would come specifically

27:04

from video games and RPGs,

27:07

And so I thought that interesting because that is a big

27:09

conversation. As I witnessed you and

27:12

my partner getting real into

27:15

the Last of Us and him loving Whicher

27:18

and now Cyberpunk like it's

27:20

something that I have watched, and then we know many

27:22

a listeners and many of gamers they

27:24

fall in love or really really

27:27

feel empathy towards

27:29

these characters, and it is it kind of like,

27:31

Wow, it's creating a whole new form of entertainment

27:34

and a whole new way of fighting

27:36

the romance genre within these things.

27:38

And one of those things is choose your own

27:41

I feel like that might be one that would be of My Alley, which

27:43

is a subset of romance games which is either

27:45

a point based or open world system

27:47

in which our actions ultimately influenced

27:49

who you end up with romantically or don't

27:52

or don't which I kind of asked people

27:54

repeatedly, why do you do this is a

27:56

video game? I don't understand. But

27:59

as we talked about, if this is a storytelling

28:01

and this is a new format of storytelling and then it is

28:03

more involved because this is an RPG, then

28:05

that makes sense. And so we're

28:08

gonna do some spoilers for some of these games. Yeah,

28:10

I know, I feel like I've really I

28:12

really mess up where I forget that not everybody

28:15

let's play these games as much as I have. But

28:17

yeah, it is interesting to see like HBO is going to

28:20

make the Last of Us and which are on Netflix

28:22

like we are seeing them. For so long video

28:24

game movies have been looked down on, but

28:26

which, by the way, the Witcher was the

28:29

highest view before. Ah.

28:33

Alright, So one of my favorite games of all

28:36

time is Final Fantasy seven, and

28:38

it's so complicated. But the brief, briefest

28:40

thing. This is part of a long running role

28:43

playing series that are based in fantasy worlds

28:45

and usually involve you try

28:47

to save the world. They're not normally connected to each

28:50

other, they're kind of standalones. So in

28:52

Final Fantasy seven and

28:54

the recently released remake

28:56

that I put in quotes, the main playable character

28:59

is Cloud and remember, Samantha, how you helped

29:01

me get him on Super Splash Brothers. Yeah,

29:03

I was very confused about what we were doing, but we did

29:05

it. We did it. So Codd is a no

29:07

nonsense mercenary doesn't talk a lot. Throughout

29:09

the game, you have multiple opportunities

29:12

to influence who you, as

29:14

the main character Cloud, end up with

29:16

romantically or have romantic situations

29:18

with the two main characters in the running

29:20

our Clouds childhood friend Tifa,

29:23

who is a scrappy fighter and a member of an environmental

29:25

organization trying to save the world and

29:28

aress slash ereth this English

29:30

mistranslation, who is a kind flower

29:33

woman who is also an ancient

29:35

world power connected to the plant which

29:37

is dying. Tifa is dressed very provocatively,

29:39

like really big boobs, like the animators

29:42

went wild in the original with

29:44

the boobs. Also, the first person I

29:46

ever went to Dragon con as I did

29:48

not have the boobs

29:50

was the the appeal No, I

29:53

just like Tifa. Also,

29:56

her costume was really easy. I'll be I'll be real real

29:58

with you. It's basically just to a crop top

30:00

and short shorts. All right, then, Okay.

30:04

While Airis is in shades of pink and

30:06

red um, she's more innocent in her

30:08

betrayal. I would say Aires is

30:10

the easiest to end up with, Like, if

30:12

you aren't actively trying to end up with someone

30:14

else, you'll probably get her.

30:17

And that's part of the tragedy of her dying

30:19

spoiler alert. And and that's a very

30:22

dramatic storyline. I cried and cried.

30:24

I will never forget that moment. But outside

30:26

of them, you can also end up with you fee you as this

30:28

flighty thief or Barrett, who

30:31

is a gruff, crass, big dude

30:33

with guns for arms, and these

30:35

romantic point opportunities occurred a few key

30:37

points. One is one of the big

30:39

ones that's near the beginning of the game, when you,

30:42

as Cloud are trying to sneak into this real sketchy

30:44

guy's house, the Dawn who

30:46

chooses women to spend the night with him,

30:48

so you're trying to get him to choose you. So

30:50

you essentially have to dress as a woman, You get address made,

30:52

to get your hair done, all that, and based on dialogue

30:55

choices you pick and other choices you make

30:57

that influences your future romantic

31:00

aspects, and later you

31:02

choose someone for a date. Same thing. I

31:04

will say the Barrett option is treated as

31:06

a joke because he is a man, but he's

31:08

also a really gruff man that, as the player, I think

31:10

you're meant to assume would be really embarrassed

31:13

to be thought of as gay. It's just

31:15

the vibe, I guy. I haven't played the original a long time,

31:18

but I do seem to remember some homophomic

31:20

jokes in there, like making fun of Cloud dress

31:22

as a woman, but also laughing at perceived

31:24

gay characters expenses. I

31:26

had to remake there's less of that going on, but I

31:29

thought it was worth mentioning. It's

31:31

safe to say the romance between

31:33

Eric, who is the total opposite of Cloud, makes

31:36

him see beauty in the world again. All that, and

31:38

Cloud is the one that

31:40

the game is guiding you too, and it

31:42

is more memorable and sad. I suppose

31:45

it's another example of killing a love interest to jump

31:47

start the main male character's story.

31:50

And she does spend much of the game apparel, but she definitely

31:52

has a story of her own, and she doesn't die untild

31:54

midway through a very long game. Okay,

31:58

it's the second disc of three discs. Is gonna

32:00

think it's at the end of the second

32:03

Okay, so there's one also

32:06

the Mass Effect series, which is one of my favorite

32:08

series, and I know people hated the ending,

32:10

don't add me. We're focusing

32:12

on the main three games here. So the way these

32:14

games work is that a choice you

32:16

make in the first game can impact

32:19

who dies in the third one. I let

32:21

me tell you, I didn't know that when I first started playing,

32:23

and I made some reckless decisions and I got very angry

32:25

about it. So when you start out, you get

32:27

designed your character. You can choose

32:29

male female. How they look, etcetera. The

32:32

default is male, but I played as the female version

32:34

of the main character, Shepherd or fem Shep

32:36

as she's called. And throughout

32:38

the games you can have multiple partners, and you can

32:41

have flings, you can have long term relationships.

32:43

I played through every romance

32:45

possible with aliens, both

32:47

female and male and non gendered

32:49

or monogendered. I do think there

32:52

is one clear heteronormative front runner

32:54

in every game, but they

32:57

were always the least interesting in my opinion. I

32:59

liked Gary, who is sort of reptilian

33:02

male alien, or ely

33:04

Are, who is a blue female alien or

33:06

mono gendered alien. And I've told Amath,

33:09

but there's a scene in the second

33:11

game where you have to go to a doctor

33:13

to talk about how to have sex with an alien

33:16

and he recommended blue.

33:18

Is great. That's good in general in

33:21

general, But yes, you pursue these relationships

33:24

primarily through dialogue options.

33:26

Who you choose to go on missions with you, you you talked

33:28

to you, and how often things like that? Right, And in

33:30

the first game you only had a handful

33:32

of choices, which is probably why you

33:34

made such a bad choice. Well,

33:37

I punched this reporter in the face and for some

33:39

reason that really impacts

33:41

something in the third game, to the point I

33:43

went to the coding and changed.

33:47

Okay, okay, But by

33:49

the third game, Dude Shepherd had nine choices

33:51

and film Shep had seven. Why less

33:53

well a little bit of conservatives

33:56

freaking out actually okay, so

33:59

yeah, and the second one cut

34:01

the same sex sex scene and a romance

34:03

option because apparently, Yeah, the Fox

34:05

News freaked out about it and really

34:08

hammered at it and said no, this is bad. And the headline

34:10

on the talk show which Chira and about it was sex

34:13

box. Yeahs,

34:15

I see the fun and this is something to know. Most

34:18

of the romance culminate in actual cut

34:20

scenes, and some with sex, others without.

34:23

Yeah. So essentially there's actually

34:25

a video that you watch where they have sex

34:28

if, which is rare in

34:30

in this world of video

34:33

game romance that I dabbled in. Not in I

34:37

will definitely ask questions of like why,

34:39

But I mean, it's it's rare in terms of like you

34:41

could end up with seven different people and pretty much everyone

34:43

would have a sex scene. But

34:46

moving on to Oxen Tree,

34:48

which is a game I've talked about before. I absolutely

34:51

adore it, but in terms of the romance

34:53

of this game. You play as a female high schooler,

34:55

and depending on the choices you make in dialogue

34:58

bubbles, you can influence who ends

35:00

up together and who you end up with or

35:02

don't end up with, and you can really mess up

35:04

relationships. You can really mess up relationships,

35:07

um because you get hints on who

35:09

like like likes each other, and

35:11

you can push them towards each other or push them

35:13

away from each other and purposely

35:16

mess with their relationships. And because you're

35:18

playing is sort of a quirky outsider, while

35:20

the other two girls in the group are kind

35:23

of eight girls or cool girls, and one of them you

35:25

have a real acts to grind with. Will

35:27

say you can choose to be a vengeful

35:30

god or benevolent matchmaker. I guess

35:32

that is what I'm saying. And

35:35

then there are some that aren't so much choose your

35:37

own, but they're kind of iconic video game

35:40

romance storyline examples,

35:43

and one of them is another favorite of

35:45

mine, Final Fantasy ten. At

35:48

the heart of this is a romance between

35:50

the Grand seminar Una and her

35:52

guardian Titus, which I know is

35:54

like the English way to pronounce it, but that's just how

35:56

I pronounce it. Throughout the game, you watch their

35:58

relationship grow from first meeting to tightest

36:01

coaxing laughter out of Una and this really long,

36:03

awkward laughing scene, but it's sweet stopping

36:06

her from marrying this gross guy named

36:08

Seymour to like a really

36:10

tame but beautiful sex scene.

36:12

I'm not sure they really had sex, but it had that vibe.

36:16

Samantha to

36:18

realizing that their love was doomed.

36:21

Uh yeah, oh no. Being the

36:23

Grand Summinar means that you know will die, and

36:26

Titus has been protecting her so that she can survive.

36:28

To die in this ritual, which he did not realize.

36:31

Titus is determined to break the cycle, but

36:33

in doing so, he

36:35

sacrifices himself. Slash realizes

36:37

he's a dream. It's very complicated. The

36:40

music of their romance is beautiful too.

36:42

But okay, so Final Fantacy Tin,

36:45

you lose Titus, they're torn apart.

36:48

Let's talk about Final Fantasy Tin too,

36:51

which at the time was

36:53

a really dramatic departure from all other

36:55

Final Fantasy games. It was trying so

36:58

hard to be cool. I really want to do a episode

37:00

on it because there's so much I could say. But

37:02

for this episode's purposes. Una

37:05

is the main character along with two other women,

37:07

and she joined up with these women to search for any trace

37:10

of her lost love Titus. The

37:12

fighting of Mechanic is outfit based

37:14

Amantha. Uh.

37:17

And there's a huge concert that

37:19

you all have to sing at, of course, so you gotta

37:22

like practice dance moves and singing. But

37:24

I wanted to include it because it does feel like Una

37:26

is in the wake of lost love and she's trying

37:29

to figure out to move on or not move on. And

37:31

if you do everything just right in the game, you

37:33

can get a cut scene at the end of her reuniting

37:35

with Titus, so it's up for debate

37:37

whether he's real, are still

37:40

a dream? And did I do this? Oh?

37:42

Yes? Do I have

37:44

the song they sing at the concert my music library?

37:46

Uh huh, I shure you. It's

37:49

been a long time since I played this game, but

37:51

I still remember thinking, well, at least in

37:53

the first one, You and I was pretty badass.

37:55

She did fit in the role of the healer

37:57

and sort of a softer attack

38:00

person, and she did more protection spells, but

38:02

she was also the summiner, and she

38:04

wore feminine clothes but not to revealing ones which

38:06

did change intend to when the clothing

38:09

was much more revealing. But there were all also

38:11

a million costumes to choose from,

38:13

each with their own set of powers and

38:15

abilities. Some of them are quite quite

38:17

silly and others culturally insensitive. So

38:21

there's that's not that's not surprising. God,

38:25

I want to talk about that game so much, but

38:27

no, We're going to talk about Kingdom Hearts now,

38:30

which is a series where you play mostly as

38:32

Sora, a young male. You probably,

38:34

even if you haven't played this game or heard of it,

38:36

you've seen the videos of trying to explain Kingdom

38:38

Hearts because it is very complicated. But

38:41

in the game, you can visit all kinds of Disney

38:43

worlds, like you can visit Beauty and the Beasts

38:46

of Frozen, Rapunzel, her Achilles. You

38:48

can run into characters from all sorts of Disney

38:50

and later Square Enix titles like Final

38:53

Fantasy. I was really hoping to see Star

38:55

Wars and Marvel show up after Disney botham

38:57

but alas in the first

38:59

game, you have your young love story

39:02

between Kirene and Sore, and they're kind of like

39:04

childhood sweethearts in love forever.

39:06

As soon as they met and after Kyrie

39:08

is captured at the beginning of the game, along

39:11

with six other princesses to be used

39:13

for their hearts to kick start bad

39:15

stuff. You spend much of the game trying to save

39:17

her, and in the end she swear to kind of saves

39:20

you, I guess, by giving you her

39:22

heart. Ar it's your

39:24

heart, but it's been living inside of her, so

39:27

you can bring her back. Complicated.

39:29

I always thought it was a little weird how little time these

39:31

two characters spent together throughout the series,

39:34

and yet they are still head over heels

39:36

in love with each other, although

39:39

there is like melancholy and longing

39:41

hanging over their relationship, and with some hintings she might

39:43

be interested in their best friend, Riku,

39:45

who is a dude. Oh no, oh

39:48

no, so a silent hill

39:50

to which we discuss in Our

39:52

Women in Survival Horror episode. I'm

39:55

going to mention it again because this is something

39:57

else that we see a lot when it comes to women in romance

39:59

and video games. This is also a point

40:02

based system, but ultimately, you as

40:04

the mail PC, have to confront

40:06

your wife and the fact that you killed

40:08

her, and depending all the choices you

40:10

make, she's the monster you have to overcome,

40:13

and you might end up with a really one dimensional,

40:15

sexy, annoying version of her. Yeah.

40:19

Of course, something else we talked about in

40:21

the Women in Survival Horror episode and I've talked

40:23

about a lot is Yes the last of Us two.

40:25

So briefly, these

40:28

games are essentially movies that you play so

40:30

you don't have choices and who you end up

40:32

with. In the DLC of the first game, which is downloadable

40:34

content, uh, you play as fourteen

40:37

year old Ellie and you see the budding romance

40:39

between her and her best friend Riley,

40:41

and also her realizing or maybe coming into

40:43

the fact that she is queer. Of

40:46

course, it ends tragically when Ellie

40:48

and Riley are bitten by zombies and they agree to lose

40:50

their minds together, but as Riley

40:53

becomes a zombie, Ellie learned she is immune.

40:56

In the second one, Ellie forms a relationship with Dina,

40:58

who is at the very least bisexual, and we see

41:00

the strengths and pitfalls of their relationship.

41:03

They settle with a child, and they have a chance that

41:06

a happy life about as happy as you're gonna get

41:08

in this world. But Ellie

41:10

chooses a chance at revenge over

41:12

her new family, and it's really painful

41:15

as a player because you're like, no, Ellie,

41:17

you get be appy. I don't do this, but you have

41:19

to play it because it's how video games work. When

41:22

Ellie returns home, Dina and their son are no longer

41:24

there, and this relationship is

41:26

really new and revolutionary in terms of representation

41:29

in video games. On the other hand,

41:31

you have Abbey and we see their eyes and fall.

41:35

One of our listeners is playing this right now and

41:37

she it's fun. I'm getting her update,

41:39

so I'm like, ah, so much you have to go through.

41:43

Yeah. We see the rise and fall of her relationship

41:46

with Owen and her choosing revenge of her

41:48

happiness time and time again, eventually

41:50

leading to Owen's death just as Abby has

41:52

decided to go with him and pursue a hopeful future

41:55

with the Fireflies. And also there's an anal sex

41:57

scene between them that

41:59

knows all sucks. I

42:01

mean, we watched it, didn't you pretty

42:05

We can discuss this later. That

42:08

is a real big detail. I didn't realize I was

42:10

there. I'm not gonna lie. I kind

42:12

of slipped in and out of that one. Another

42:15

game, fun

42:18

intended Gone Home and this is

42:20

a game where you return home after being deployed

42:22

for a while and you find the house empty.

42:24

Oh no. Using notes and recordings,

42:26

you piece together what happened and it was really

42:28

cool. Is At first it plays like a haunted house game,

42:31

but as you play, you'll learn your younger sister

42:33

has fallen for a young woman, and because she felt unaccepted

42:36

by her religious family, she ran away with

42:38

her. And it's a bittersweet coming

42:40

out story of young love love.

42:43

Yeah, and then some recommendations

42:45

I got when I was researching women romance

42:47

and video games that I have not played, but I thought

42:49

i'd mentioned which or three Yes, Wild

42:52

Hunts a game that

42:54

I owned but have yet to play. So depending

42:56

on the choices you make, you can end up with tris your

42:58

long time go to or a blast

43:00

from the past sorceress, Unifer or

43:03

lose both are choose to go it alone. I

43:05

suppose from what I understand there's

43:07

a lot of potential female partners from main

43:09

character Gerald and I. I can't remember

43:12

if this is the one that has like all the

43:14

weird sex in it if

43:16

I remember correctly, and I don't remember

43:18

correctly often, UM, just

43:20

go ahead put that caveat out there. When I was

43:22

watching my partner play it, he

43:24

would pick the sex scenes and all of that, and I

43:26

was like, why, what's happening, and

43:29

there was a lot, Yeah, that's a

43:32

lot. Well,

43:34

this whole old versus new romance, like

43:36

the person from your past and the new one, plus

43:39

the lighter versus darker dynamics seems pretty

43:41

common in video games and I'd say a lot of romantic

43:44

entertainment. It also shows up in Far

43:46

Cry three, when the protagonist Jason

43:48

has torn between his old the Liza, who

43:50

he needs to save, and his new love, the darker

43:53

Citra, who is a precess on the island. He

43:55

gets some roomed on. I haven't played this game,

43:57

so I can't speak to the trails of these women. Acording

44:00

to the summaries I read, you do have to face Eliza

44:02

in a dream, maybe as a

44:04

monster. And again there's the sort of

44:06

threat of women holding men back in

44:08

these romance stories. But there

44:11

may have also been magic going on through

44:13

Citra, who sounds like she plays the role of the

44:15

seductress. And it also sounds

44:17

like case of women being played against women in

44:19

the classic triangle that we're seeing pop up

44:21

again. And again that's the male character. You have

44:24

multiple women to choose from. You gotta

44:26

make your choice. In the game's end, Citra

44:28

dies for Jason, but if you allied

44:31

with her, the two have ritualistic sex

44:33

after Jason killed Liza, but then Citra

44:35

kills Jason, telling him their child will

44:38

leave the tribe to glory. Women

44:40

are out to seduce you, take your sperm, and kill you. Is

44:42

that romance? I don't think obviously.

44:49

What is not a problem? And then

44:51

we can talk about the Uncharted series.

44:53

Drake and Elina has been a lot of these

44:55

games saving each other, which is nice,

44:57

but both are competent and capable on their own.

45:00

Lena becomes an international investigative

45:02

journalists and they have a relatively quote

45:04

normal relationship for a video game.

45:07

So I'm interested to see what that

45:09

would be. Florence a game about the ups

45:11

and downs of a relationship where you piece together

45:14

dialogue bubbles. Yeah, by the way, those confuse

45:16

me because I'm like, wait, you have to choose one or the other.

45:18

What's happening, what's happening? What's happening?

45:21

And then there's a Star Do Valley, which

45:23

is a game all about romance.

45:26

You have the option to build friendships or relationships

45:28

get married, but none of these

45:30

is permanent, and you can be rejected and

45:33

marriages can fall apart like real life,

45:35

talking, running errands, asking a character

45:38

to dance are all ways you can build up these

45:40

relationships that kind of sounds like red Dead

45:42

Redemption that my partner really likes.

45:44

I've been watching him play that too, which

45:47

always root for the animal to eat him. Apparently

45:49

that's not good. But

45:54

there's also Dragon Age Inquisition,

45:56

which is kind of a fantasy version of mass effect

45:59

mechanics are sam Are Apparently

46:01

playing as a female elf gives you the most choices

46:03

of partners at eleven compared to human

46:05

females five, although some relationships

46:08

in this game have been called out for queer bating or

46:11

racism. Also SIMS for you

46:13

can control the pace of your romance and who you

46:15

romance, pregnancies, all kinds of things.

46:18

I like the SIMS memes that make no

46:20

fun. Then there's Catherine, an adult

46:22

puzzle game where you play Vincent, who has

46:24

torn between committing to his long time

46:26

girlfriend Katherine and the mysterious woman

46:29

he had an affair with. Catherine.

46:33

Yeah, okay um, and after his longtime

46:36

girlfriend leaves him, he realizes, see

46:38

Katherine is a succubus obviously.

46:41

Um, and the endings you can get are sounds

46:44

like very They're very interesting.

46:47

And this kind of reminds me of the new phone

46:49

games that I've been seeing, which are romantic

46:51

story phone games puzzle games

46:54

that you have to create this romance,

46:56

and that they all seem to be, you know, having affairs

46:59

or be laughed or all these things

47:01

that I find that very interesting. As it's become more

47:04

and more popular or at least advertised a

47:06

lot. I don't know what my phone is trying to tell me because I've

47:08

never played those games, but okay, um,

47:11

and then there's a waylanders a newish

47:13

RPG way you can explore all kinds of

47:15

relationships and depths of relationships,

47:18

pan sexual and players plays non binary

47:21

or trans which is pretty freaking cool.

47:23

Yeah, I'm interested to check that one out. So

47:26

that's been kind of rollin through

47:29

video games. But we didn't want to talk about some music.

47:31

Music. Yeah, but first we

47:34

have one more break for words work sponsor,

47:49

and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. Let's

47:51

talk about boy bands. Bands.

47:54

So, boy bands make so

47:57

much money, according to Jason King,

47:59

a music journal US at MPR. A boy band

48:01

entails quote members that are usually

48:03

in their late teens early twenties. Their

48:05

material appeals to teen and preteen girls.

48:08

There's usually a manager who puts the group together,

48:10

as opposed to it arising organically. I will say

48:12

there's a lot of debate actually about that. The

48:14

term first appeared in the nineteen eighties as

48:16

part of the gendered marketing of that

48:18

time, especially to younger

48:21

folks, and generally the term comes

48:23

with some stigma and assumption of

48:25

lesser for all the reasons

48:27

we've been talking about, like with rom coms

48:29

and chick flicks. Also, BTS, for instance,

48:32

doesn't fit the description we just read, which

48:34

is sparked some debate about how non anglophone

48:37

boy bands are different. Right.

48:39

Oh, and by the way, BTS had such

48:41

a huge impact in the government of

48:44

South Korea that they changed a law

48:47

that which actually has a young mel

48:50

Korean citizens to be a part of the army, and they

48:53

pushed the age requirement back specifically

48:55

for BTS, saying that they were doing

48:57

so well for being an ambassadors

49:00

their country. I found that fascinating

49:02

because that rule, that law has been in

49:04

place for a long time. Oh

49:07

yeah, that's the power of the boy band

49:09

indeed, And from Heidi Samuelson

49:12

at Media, she says, quote, what about

49:14

the Temptations the Ramans in Blink one eight

49:16

two? Are they boy bands? No?

49:19

Probably not, because adults and boys listen

49:21

to them too, so obviously

49:23

not. Yeah, that's a great

49:25

article, by the way, I had to recommend it. So

49:28

we talked about boy bands a bit in our Fangirl

49:30

episode about how women

49:32

and girls were the first to love the Beatles, often

49:34

considered the first boy band and Elvis,

49:37

but they were dismissed, as were these

49:39

artists themselves, until male critics and

49:41

male audiences gave credience to

49:43

their music, and suddenly the music not only

49:45

had value, but it's like I discovered this and it's so

49:47

good, and like ladies are ruining it

49:49

for me. The girl and women fans were

49:52

routinely mocked, and that continues

49:54

to be the case. And we used this cote

49:56

from Harry Styles in our fan Girl episode. But I love it so

49:58

much I want to put it in here again. Who's

50:01

to say that young girls who like pop music short

50:03

per popular right have worse musical taste than

50:05

a thirty year old hipster guy. That's not up

50:07

to you to say. Music is something that's always

50:10

changing. There's no goal post. Young girls

50:12

like the Beatles. You're gonna tell me they're not serious.

50:14

How can you say young girls don't get it? There are

50:16

a future doctor's lawyers, mother's presidents.

50:19

They kind of keep the world going. Teenage

50:21

girl fans, they don't why if they like

50:23

you, they're there. They don't act too cool.

50:26

They like you and they tell you, which sick as

50:28

well as the fact they will back you andrush

50:32

you. Yes they will.

50:34

We talked so too. But

50:37

let's back up a bit and ask the question why

50:39

do girls and women love boy bands?

50:42

Because no matter the era, there's

50:44

a boy band and legions of women and girls

50:46

propping them up. The Beatles, Manudo

50:49

Jackson, five Backstreet Boys, and Sink

50:51

One Direction at BTS, which by the

50:53

way, is the number one boy band in the world in twenty

50:56

In twenty nineteen, they became the first band

50:58

since the Beatles to have a three MS at

51:00

number one on the US pop charts

51:02

in the same year. And the abuse

51:04

that can happen within these boy band worlds

51:06

is a whole separate episode that we should talk about.

51:09

As well as the fact that bands like this, you see

51:11

a lot of court cases coming

51:13

back to talking about how they've been misrepresented

51:16

or how they've their money's gone because

51:18

the management, Oh, sneaky,

51:20

that's one way of putting it, like

51:23

underhanded and sneaky and took a lot

51:26

away from them. Yes.

51:28

Yes, One reason that these

51:30

boy bands have such popularity is something

51:32

that we've been talking about. It's a safe way for

51:34

young girls and women to explore their sexuality

51:36

and build identity. And

51:38

yeah, listen to the lyrics. You're telling you you're

51:40

perfect, you're amazing, you're beautiful, all these

51:43

lovely things. Yes, very heteronormative

51:45

lyrics generally, but it's nice to imagine

51:48

that a the lyrics are about

51:50

you, and be that some

51:53

sort of romanticized man who

51:55

would be so open with his emotions

51:58

with you exist and that you could be with

52:00

them. According to Maria Sherman,

52:02

author of Larger Than Life, a History of boy bands

52:04

from in k O t B two

52:06

BTS, the history shows

52:08

that young women have been interested in the sensitive

52:10

sweetie a very long time.

52:13

Boy Bands can pump out signals almost

52:15

unparalleled, and the members are usually not

52:18

bad to look at and synchronized

52:20

dancing. It's almost an extension

52:22

of the escapist fantasy that we talked about

52:24

in part one of these episodes,

52:26

but also on this one. For a minute, you can

52:28

believe the song is about you and that you could end

52:30

up with the band member or find someone

52:33

like him. And I know I've said this before, but what

52:35

pad which is a fan fiction like really popular

52:38

mobile fan fiction app. I

52:40

think of the fan fiction on there's

52:42

about one direction. I think

52:44

it's at Yeah, that's a lot. By

52:46

the way, I love a man who can move. Hey

52:50

sexy. But Nick Carter, a

52:52

member of back Street Boys, said quote, people

52:54

love boy bands because you can relate to at least

52:57

one member. Boy Bands give people

52:59

the right to be to choose her their favorites are and

53:01

who they can relate to. Everyone can find

53:03

someone that they can call their own. Uh.

53:05

And you've got the types, the bad boy, the show one,

53:08

etcetera. There's also competitive

53:10

aspects to that between bands, with

53:12

the members of the bands standing if you

53:14

will so much standing Yeah

53:17

and yes. And

53:20

Samantha was an instinct girl and I

53:22

was a Backstreet Boys girl, and

53:24

I just had to put in here. Backstreet

53:26

Boys is the most successful boy band

53:28

of all time with over one million

53:31

records worldwide, as I

53:33

think, but you know that because

53:36

they produced a lot more records because justin

53:39

Timberlake never came back. That's right, Backstreet

53:42

Boys. I think they did a cruise

53:44

ship so they

53:46

needed money. They kept coming back and I'm sure

53:48

the rest of in Sync would have loved that,

53:50

but Timberlake did not need them apparently,

53:53

So that be

53:55

part of the argument is actually

53:57

boys was still producing music

53:59

up until old not too long ago. Of course, maybe

54:02

not so much now that we found out one of them may be a Q

54:04

and On supporter, but hey, that's

54:06

your being in the world of boy bands,

54:10

and nostalgia is a big part of this too, Like

54:13

you know, when whatever in the same factory Bley song

54:15

comes on and car you're into

54:17

it. And I did have a lot of fun looking at old pictures

54:19

from fans at different time periods, and I love

54:22

asking my mom about the Beatles and Elvis that

54:24

she was such a huge fan. Oh my mom was a huge

54:26

fan of the Monkeys. Oh yeah, yeah,

54:29

comes up on the list as well. But

54:32

we had to come back and talk about the appeal of love songs

54:34

and ballads for women. What

54:36

is it about love songs that appeal to women and

54:38

why do we connect with them? So? According

54:41

to one study done by professor in France,

54:43

it says that it may have improved one's mood

54:46

and made them more receptive to a possible

54:48

romance, and two it may make

54:50

them more likely to be agreeable and feeling

54:52

more generous and likelier to say yes.

54:55

For his study, he had a group of women listening to music

54:58

and having positive interactions with each other, then

55:00

being approached by an average looking man

55:03

who asked for their number and at least gave

55:05

them their number, And then had a group that didn't listen to the music

55:07

and only twenty seven point nine percent gave

55:10

them the number. Right, So I thought it was interesting

55:12

because he decided, hey, maybe this can

55:14

affect whether or not they'll say yes

55:16

to a date. And it did. It

55:18

kind of did affect it. But of course

55:20

nothing has truly been verified and we would

55:22

need to have further research into

55:25

it. It's hard to deny that music makes you feel

55:27

things. I mean, even when you think about like the romantic mixtape

55:29

or mood music for dates or

55:32

having sex, like it's just sort

55:34

of a thing. It does. Mixtape, the

55:36

infamous mixtape I Made You a mixtape, I

55:38

made you a mix CD. How romantic?

55:41

You know me? How romantic?

55:43

So it's estimated that over one million

55:46

love songs have been recorded in very

55:48

different variations, everything from

55:50

new love to break up songs to songs of

55:52

devotion. But that what makes them special.

55:55

You have a singer songwriters like Taylor Swift

55:57

who has made a career in her storytelling.

56:00

In songwriting, teens and adults feel

56:02

a connection. She speaks their feelings

56:04

and as she stays in her own songs, these are confessionals,

56:07

which allows for connection with the fan.

56:09

And that's what it's about, having a song that makes

56:11

the listener feel heard or understood

56:13

because that's how they felt, or that's

56:16

how they want to feel, or that's what they see. And

56:18

whether it's the honesty of heartbreak and

56:20

and this dude being a jerk, or

56:22

the honesty of finding someone you're like, why can't

56:25

it be me? Which I still have a

56:27

hard time believing that Taylor Swift isn't the number

56:29

one girl and plays herself as the

56:31

number two girl in her songs. Whatever we

56:35

can all relern and

56:39

music is therapeutic, whether it's upbeat, songs

56:41

to get you motivated, or sad songs that allow you

56:43

to mourn or at least tears, and

56:45

in fact, researchers said sad songs

56:48

quote induce the biochemical response and

56:50

empathetic listeners triggering at beneficial

56:52

hormones. And yes, actually

56:55

my fan fiction, my very tragic, absolutely

56:58

devastating fan fiction. I made a playlist for it,

57:00

and it is so sad. It is so sad,

57:03

but I love it. Yeah, I think definitely

57:05

when I was dabbling in writing, a song

57:07

might inspire me to get

57:10

into that mode. Specific emo

57:12

bands like Death Camp for Cutie makes you

57:14

have the storytelling things things a decembrists.

57:17

They do this where they tell

57:19

a story within their songs and you feel this,

57:21

you feel this emotion and you start connecting with yes,

57:24

I have a story for that. So I definitely think we

57:26

see that and we know that there's a connection

57:28

in movies and soundtracks and what that brings

57:31

out, what the emotions bring out. I

57:33

mean, I've discovered a many artists

57:35

through soundtracks, and I bought

57:37

soundtracks like Nobody's Business because

57:40

I expressed so much more so

57:43

what I could have said out loud. And I think for women

57:46

is a drive because you get it. It is that open

57:48

vulnerability that oftentimes we

57:51

don't see in reality. So therefore

57:53

maybe these men who are crooning towards

57:56

to us, it shows their vulnerability

57:58

and you just feel so spatial. Yeah,

58:01

yeah, like you're really seeing their

58:04

sensitive side. It can only open

58:06

up to you. Even though everyone's listening to this

58:10

so clearly, there's so many different

58:13

and I want to come back and explore, like

58:15

so many of the things we've talked about in this very

58:18

broad Hard to Wrestle episode,

58:20

it was a massive topic. We saw a lot of common

58:23

threads and tropes, and we can see women

58:25

aren't a monolith when it comes to romance

58:27

and what people like and what they want to see and hear

58:29

and play whatever. It is a me to write

58:32

very briefly, we did have like our quiz results

58:35

because you sent me to quizs what

58:37

britin family? Would you know? What family

58:39

would you be in Bridgtain? Who would you end up

58:41

within Bridgtain? And who would you be in Twilight?

58:44

Yeah? So I got the Brigtain family

58:47

is the want of family. I'd end up in Benedict

58:49

Britain is going to ask for my hand in marriage.

58:52

And I got Bella Swan, which I want to read.

58:54

The description is from The Guardian. When

58:56

you're not getting yourself in dangerous situations,

58:59

you often find your up in the middle of fights

59:01

between the various people who love you. Make

59:03

sure your dad approves though you're still his

59:05

baby. Which you've

59:07

ever seen this, right, I've never seen

59:09

Britain Our Twilight. I've never read in Twilight.

59:12

I think I know generally well it goes down, but

59:14

yeah, the father character is very protective of

59:17

Bella in this as well. But

59:20

yeah, I actually got the same results all of them,

59:22

so I find that funny. Mainstream

59:24

and we are very mainstream, apparently

59:26

because I also got bit of Dick and I love it. To explain

59:29

to me why it's like, here you got I

59:32

don't know who that is. So I was like middle

59:34

son, who is an artist,

59:37

Okay, sure, he's

59:39

kind of a part of the plot that has a little bit

59:41

of queer baiting, which has been a kind of conversation

59:43

within it. So it's interesting. But yeah,

59:46

there you go, quizzes. You gotta love it. I

59:48

was like, I'm gonna send you ten thousand quizzes and then I stopped

59:50

at three. So you're well, it's really funny because I'm always

59:52

like I don't just like, what character would you be in Britain?

59:55

And I'm like, I don't know. I like the name of this one.

59:57

Oh there's so many Twilight, Like how much

59:59

do you know? And I was like, there's no way absending this to her,

1:00:01

she would lose her mind. Yes,

1:00:05

it's so competitive. Well,

1:00:07

there you go. That's wraps up

1:00:09

our two parter look at

1:00:11

Women in Romance. Oh no,

1:00:14

perhaps we'll come back and revisit some of these things,

1:00:16

but in the meantime, send

1:00:18

all of your romantic recommendations

1:00:21

entertainment our way. You can email

1:00:24

us a Stuff Media mom Stuff at I heart media dot com.

1:00:26

You can find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You

1:00:28

are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks

1:00:30

as always your super producer, Christina, Thank

1:00:33

you, Christinea, and thanks to

1:00:35

you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You the protection

1:00:37

of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from I Heart Radio,

1:00:39

visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1:00:41

you listen to your favorite shows.